Microsoft Pulls Windows 10 November Update (1511) ISOs (zdnet.com)

AmiMoJo writes: When Microsoft released Windows 10 version 1511 earlier this month, the company also updated the installer files it delivers via a free, downloadable media creation tool (MCT). That upgrade option worked as advertised for more than a week. This weekend, however, the new files have been pulled and the media creation tool available for download from that page instead installs the July 2015 (build 10240) release. A Microsoft spokesperson confirmed they wish people install the older version and get the 1551 update via Windows Update. The more recent release is still available via an unpublished link (EXE download).

Comments

Beware HP monitor owners

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows 10 has many problems with the 30" model - LP3065.

Re:Beware HP monitor owners

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows 10 is known to actually destroy some monitors.

Re:Beware HP monitor owners

[bratwiz]

Sign the Change.Org Petition:

Bad Microsoft! Stop Pushing Windows 10 On Consumers Uninvited!

There is a new Change.Org petition to protest Microsoft's unilateral push of Windows 10 onto consumers whether they want it or not. The petition specifically addresses the issue of Bandwidth and Disk Space consumed, the various Privacy Concerns, the fact that Personal Data is sent out to Microsoft and other "unnamed" third-party entities with little way to Opt Out-- yes, it is possible, but not straight-foward, and it isn't entirely clear whether additional monitoring occurs anyway. This issue is not about whether the Windows 10 Operating System is "good" or "bad" particularly, but specifically protests the manner in which it is forced upon consumers with very little regard for their systems which can be broken by the install, or the problems which can occur afterwards such as with device drivers and whatnot, of the changes in the EULA which make it harder to hold Microsoft accountable for these kinds of actions in the future. This petition is about Microsoft unilaterally taking away consumer choice and forcing their choice onto our computers.

BAD MICROSOFT. YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELVES.

You can sign the petition here:

https://www.change.org/p/bill-...

Not available by Windows update either

[Anonymous Coward]

That's all good and well if you are able to get it via Windows update, I'm still waiting for it to appear in Windows update.

Re: Not available by Windows update either

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm still trying remove the whole 'upgrade to W10' from my windows update.

Re: Not available by Windows update either

[Anonymous Coward]

I uninstalled a few updates and it doesn't nag me anymore but anywhere from 1-3 times a day it attempts to install it. I wouldn't know this except by looking at the update history which shows "Upgrade to Windows 10 Home......................Failed'.

Except oddly enough it hasn't done it since last Thursday even though the failures have been going on since August.

I also set it to allow me to choose which updates (on Win 8.1), which it does except for the upgrade to Win10 but it also doesn't notify me when there are updates.

I really can't be bothered with fixing it either. Installing Linux the first time in the late '90s was easier than fixing Windows update problems.

Re:Not available by Windows update either

[MachineShedFred]

It's also fine if the July build will actually install on your motherboard without having to hack a bugged microcode update out of it. Which I cannot. Oh well, guess I can put off putting all those black hole routes in place for a while longer.

Re: Not available by Windows update either

[dead_user]

Go here:
http://ultimateoutsider.com/downloads/ and download the GWX Control Panel. That will remove it as well as the downloaded install files. Not my code, but it worked for me.

Re: Not available by Windows update either

[The Real Dr John]

The GWX (get windows 10) Control Panel is a great tool. It lets you kill everything associated with the W10 upgrade. You can pick it up at several places including NeoWin.net.

http://www.neowin.net/news/gwx...

I noticed that Windows 7 Ultimate (basically Windows 7 Enterprise edition for consumers) is selling for $300 over at eBay now. Should tell you something.

Re: Not available by Windows update either

[Anonymous Coward]

I noticed that Windows 7 Ultimate (basically Windows 7 Enterprise edition for consumers) is selling for $300 over at eBay now. Should tell you something.

Yeah, it tells me lots of people can't figure out how to download a torrent...

Re: Not available by Windows update either

[dejitaru]

I noticed that Windows 7 Ultimate (basically Windows 7 Enterprise edition for consumers) is selling for $300 over at eBay now. Should tell you something.

That tells you nothing, Windows 7 Ultimate has always been over $300

Re: Not available by Windows update either

[The Real Dr John]

So it says nothing that Windows 10 is free, and people are paying $300 for the old version? And as I recall my copy of Windows 7 Ultimate was something like $239 when new.

Re: Not available by Windows update either

[dejitaru]

Well, Windows 10 isn't free for all, the upgrade is free if you have Windows 7 or 8. but if you have neither then you can't upgrade. From what I remember, the Win7 ultimate upgrade was about the price you quoted, but the full version was over $300. Actually a quick search shows a 2009 article quoting the full version of windows 7 ultimate at about $319.00. http://www.computerworld.com/a... Now I am not saying Windows 7 isn't still in demand now that Windows 10 is out. The fact that Windows 7 machines are still being sold gives reason to why there was no reduction in the license cost after 6 years.

Re: Not available by Windows update either

[The Real Dr John]

OK, so Windows 10 is free for about 65% or more of the existing user base. That is a lot of people.

http://gs.statcounter.com/#os-...

I think that the relatively low, now almost flat adoption rate for Windows 10 is that people don't like the 2D interface. Plus, it is not as stable as Windows 7 and it has crap stuck on the start menu that you need to fiddle with to get rid of. It also has more "telemetry" built in. None of the so-called improvements are particularly useful (Cortana is a great example). It seems dumbed down so that it will work on mobile devices. I think that is why there is a market for the older version that has more features (Windows 7 Ultimate), which doesn't have all the downsides.

Re: Not available by Windows update either

[Anonymous Coward]

I got my Windows 7 Ultimate for U.S. $29.99 at NewNog.com!

'Tis the season!

Re:Not available by Windows update either

[ChunderDownunder]

Same, still running version 10.0.10240

Maybe they've stopped the update altogether?

Re: Not available by Windows update either

[dejitaru]

Well... okay... I was talking just about the price of of Windows 7 Ultimate, not the differences of Windows 7 & 10. There really isn't a right answer to the 7 vs 10, since opinion on any operating system is mostly subjective.

Re: Not available by Windows update either

[Anonymous Coward]

Uninstall KB3035583. Then hide from future updates. BTW it can have two versions....

SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[lesincompetent]

Dear M$,
the most frustrating part of installing a fresh windows system is the updates.
Stop making it even more frustrating.

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[Anonymous Coward]

Especially since the November update is humongous and takes forever to install. Would suck to do a fresh install of RTM, then have to sit through the November update as well.

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[Anonymous Coward]

It's the "M$" that's a clear troll. The rest of the post should simply be ignored when he starts off with a troll.

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[unixisc]

Yeah, I did that and it was painful. My laptop upgraded, but my Winbook tablet got stuck in b/w, and I finally took it to the Microsoft store to get it done.

While I didn't care so much for the update on the laptop, where it went more smoothly, I wanted it on the tablet. That's b'cos in Tablet Mode, all the icons don't fit in a single screen, so I wanted the 4 columns of icons. I was told that this release is happening in stages, and so the one for the tablet might be available later. So I put that on hold now.

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[Anonymous Coward]

>M$
>installing a fresh windows system is the updates.
I take it you haven't installed Ubuntu or Debian lately...

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[Frederic54]

I wanted to re-install Windows 7, what a mistake... first the update takes a core at 100% and just scanning for updates takes about 20h. There is 203 updates, it is a mess, there is updates for IE9, IE10, IE11 and multiples security updates for all browsers including IE8, then multiple .NET updates and others. Half of them fail to install, some rollback, after an update and a reboot it can find new updates, etc. All in all it takes a few days to install Win7.

So I took the MS tool, downloaded the 1511 ISO, wipe the partition and intalled a fresh Win10, after the install there was 3 updates, that's it, no bloatware, no forever to d/l and install update. In 20 minutes I was running and up-to-date.
I guess they have their reason to remove the 1511 ISO, certainly because you could install a fresh Win10 with a Win7 or Win8 key.

And do not worry /., I dual boot Mint 17.2 but need Windows for some programs like GPS update for instance.

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[Cramer]

I have. If you're connected to the network at the time of installation, it will fetch the latest versions of everything from the selected mirror(s). If you install from an outdated copy of a mirror, it's the same BS as a windows install, albeit far less annoying (it's ONE update/upgrade (and reboot) and you're done, unlike the M$ method of installing a patch (reboot), patch the patch (reboot), patch the patch of the patch (reboot), ...)

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[KGIII]

'Tis time for my daily off-topic post. My saga, if you will. (Yes, I do this to piss you off, not you personally but someone else. If it irks you incidentally then oops. I hope you appreciate the story.)

Anyhow...

Many years ago I was out with a couple of friends of mine and I saw the grossest thing that I've ever seen. I hunt and take care of animal viscera. I've seen dead people, people wounded, and people in car accidents - horrific ones. Yet, none of those really make me queasy or anything.

My two friends are Paul and Wog (they'll be proud that I shared this story) and Wog's called that because his name is also Paul and it's short for polliwog. Paul and Wog worked as subcontractors in the construction trade.

Now, Paul and Wog were good friends and I a member of this same circle of friends. Alcohol was generally a requirement in this circle and we often consumed copious amounts of it. This one night in particular, we'd been drinking Ice 101 which is a rather potent peppermint schnapps. We are also in a work van with Paul driving and Wog in the passenger seat. I sat in the rear on a bucket - there were no rear seats. (Seat belts weren't required back then.)

So, we're going somewhere and I don't recall where we were or where we were going but we'd just stopped at a fast food place. At this point Paul, driving, pulls off to the side of the road and vomits in the trash can that is between the seats and right in front of me. Peppermint schnapps, fast food, and a day's worth of bile aren't really nice smelling but it was funny. For about 5 seconds it remained funny.

Wog, being drunk, says, "Oh look! a French fry!" He then reaches into the trash, into the vomit, pulls out a partially eaten fry, and pops it into his mouth and eats it.

I managed to get the van door open before projectile vomiting onto the side of the road while Paul happily returned to driving.

Peppermint schnapps and Windows 10 are on the list of things I won't own. It was also a long time before I'd eat fries again. The smell of peppermint schnapps still turns my stomach even all these years later.

Is Windows10 a thing?

[Anonymous Coward]

Win7 works fine, anyone 30 is using a phone or a tablet, and 5% of the people out there use Macs.

Who is using Windows10?

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[Anonymous Coward]

Who is using Windows10?

The people who were "accidentally" forced to "upgrade" to Windows 10, for one. Thanks MS! Supporting my aging parents from 1200 miles away is fun!

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[RoverDaddy]

I updated all my PCs to Windows 10, starting with the laptop that was running 8.1 anyway. Inevitably there will be software and hardware that just isn't supported on Windows 7, whether intentionally or by accident, and I see no reason to stay behind when the update was free. Windows 10 cleaned up some of the annoyances I had with using 8.1 on a laptop (the Metro screen and Charms bar for instance), and the remainder are hardly an issue.

And regarding the idea that everybody under 30 uses a phone or tablet, sure they use phones, but I don't see many tablets out there, and laptops are practically a requirement for a college education these days, so that whole group of (under 30) people uses a Mac or PC computer as well.

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[Junta]

A hair more use Windows 10 than OSX currently. About 4 times as many as use Linux. Over 5 times as many use Windows 7, and still more people use XP than any version of windows except 7.

Not necessarily ecstatic about the numbers, but the numbers say that Windows 10 is more relevant than OSX if you want to talk about by usage. This is an OS that's only been available for 4 months from the perspective of most people, and contrary to the way it was discussed in the media, the Windows 10 upgrade in Windows 7 actually is being pretty conservative about upgrading (I have a Windows 7 system that does not prompt, and in fact when I go to explicitly check after a Windows 10 update it still says 'please check back later to see if your platform is validated'. I had updated another system against that recommendation, but am keeping that one in that state just to see how long it would take or if MS would ever 'validate' that platform. So getting close to Windows 8.1 share this quickly is not too shabby by MS standards.

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[Anonymous Coward]

A very large portion of the Windows user population is computer illiterates who want the new shiny. They don't know or care what they are getting as long as they can brag to someone that they are using the latest Windows.

High school never ends because the vast majority reach intellectual maturity in it.

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[RogueyWon]

Usual caveats apply, but the latest stats I can find have Windows 10 on around 8% market share. Its rise seems to have been accompanied by a significant fall in Windows 8 market share, which I'm guessing indicates that a lot of the people who bought a PC that came bundled with Windows 8 have made the jump.

I've made the switch myself on two machines; one updated from Windows 7 and one new-build which I stuck straight onto Windows 10. There is a bit of faff required to turn off the telemetry nastiness, but once that's out of the way, I generally prefer it to Windows 7. There are some good UI improvements, plus there will be directx 12 support down the line. That said, I've noticed occasional odd behaviour on the updated machine (and disappointing results from fastboot); it seems that clean installs really are the way to go and, if I cared enough, I would do that.

That said, when my parents tried to update their aging laptop from Win7 to Win10, it locked the machine in an infinite reboot cycle, requiring me to make a 400 mile round-trip to fix it and (eventually) get it back to Win7. Turns out that Win10 doesn't like some old laptop integrated graphics setups. Would be nice if the compatibility checker tool had actually picked this up. It doesn't actually seem to do much compatibility checking, but rather just to push people towards the update.

And no, people under 30 aren't just using phones and tablets. Cousin's daughter tried to go the "iPad only" route when she started university last year and gave up and bought a PC after a couple of weeks. Tablets and phones are pretty toys and are fine for web-browsing and watching youtube, but you can't yet turn them into a credible substitute for a laptop or desktop.

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[MachineShedFred]

That's really not that shocking. Most people don't "upgrade" for the sake of upgrading. Usually, at least in Windows land, an OS upgrade is tied to a hardware upgrade, and nobody is upgrading their hardware because a Core2 Duo is still working just fine as the family PC.

Only enthusiasts, gamers, and businesses are buying new PCs. Everyone else's tech spend is going to phones / tablets / etc.

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[Anonymous Coward]

You need to install all required and optional updates first in order to get the Windows 10 upgrade prompt.

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[Anonymous Coward]

LOL I know rite?
M$ is bad
anything new is bad
So something new from M$ must be worse than the holocaust.

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[Lumpy]

ONLY because it's free. If people had to pay $79.99 for it the adoption rate would be 1/50th of what it is today

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[Ol Olsoc]

Who is using Windows10?

The people who were "accidentally" forced to "upgrade" to Windows 10, for one. Thanks MS! Supporting my aging parents from 1200 miles away is fun!

You need modded up.

Can you imagine in your wildest dreams that 20 years after Microsoft introduced W95, that they are in the hand-cranked automobile/manual choke phase of computing?

There is just no way this kind of thing should still be going on. I'm on my third total OS upgrade on my iMac. All went seamlessly. My Wife's Linux Mint laptop is being administered by her, and has only required 1 reboot after a total OS update in the couple years since switching from W8.1.

That W10 machine I'm experimenting with? Almost pretty good. But the same old Windows update crapshoot as always. Now that most people have no choice in the update matter, your computer simply is going to be borked. Even the shills have to be getting tired of this.

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[bondsbw]

and still more people use XP than any version of windows except 7

Actually this isn't true. Windows 10 surpassed XP this month.

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[ITRambo]

Businesses still run Windows. Only two, of our dozens of business customers, have a Windows 10 PC. We strongly encourage all of our customer to put off until June 2016 to consider an upgrade from Windows 7. At that time we'll likely suggest that they stay on Windows 10 unless MS changes the terrible system they have in place for updating. We also ask them to uncheck the Windows update setting for installing Recommended updates. Recommended updates are no longer legitimate updates in the sense of historical WIndows updates that actually were intended to improve the OS you were running and not change it to one that is still unpolished. The new update mechanism is so inferior to the old service pack model that it's pitiful

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[AmiMoJo]

Are you on Windows 7 Enterprise or something? All my Windows 7 machines have been nagging incessantly since before the launch of Windows 10, and every now and again they "accidentally" re-enable the update that installs the nag app so I have to remove and block it again.

If you are not getting the nag to update and you are not on a corporate network where updates are controlled by the admins, you should be worried. Are you still getting other security updates?

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[wbo]

Did you try using the Windows 7 graphics driver in the Windows 10 install? Windows 10 supports using Windows 7 drivers.

In the case of graphics drivers, you will loose some Direct X 12 features (although not all) by using a Windows 7 driver but if the graphics chipset is that old, it probably wouldn't support the new features anyway.

If the graphics manufacturer has released a Windows 10 driver but it doesn't work for some reason, then you may have to boot Windows 10 in safe mode to force the use of the older driver. However, once that is done things should work. When you force a driver install in safe mode, Windows 10 appears to avoid automatically updating the driver in the future, which is nice.

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[Anonymous Coward]

You have numerical proof of this? Or is it a 'gut feeling'?

Win10 *is* the future of windows. Ignore it at your peril. There is a bit of learning curve as usual everything has been jumbled around.

Overall out of the computers I have upgraded it on 1 went badly. It really should not have had windows on it in the first place. The rest have better startup times. Less memory usage. As an added bonus my wire network rates are better. Which was unexpected.

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[Anonymous Coward]

...

Can you imagine in your wildest dreams that 20 years after Microsoft introduced W95, that they are in the hand-cranked automobile/manual choke phase of computing?

...

Nope.

I never would have guessed that Microsoft could progress even that far.

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[Ol Olsoc]

Not necessarily ecstatic about the numbers, but the numbers say that Windows 10 is more relevant than OSX if you want to talk about by usage.

Why would I want to talk about the usage? I don't buy Toyota Corollas because of their installed user base. I buy a tool that will do what I need to do. It's Jeeps for me and my usage pattern. Not as many sold, so I should buy a Corrolla for off road use because it's more popular than Jeeps?

That's ridiculous of course, but no more so than trumpeting the installed user base of Windows. More to real world situations - how do I run my OSX only programs on that more relevant W10 platform?

And Vice versa. I have exactly 1 program that I need to run Windows for, so I have bootcamp and W7 on my Mac, and a test Dell running W10. So I have that particular tool at my disposal. Now I have more tools than those who have to buy a computer based on popularity.

But if using a so-called more popular OS puts more money in your bank account, that's awesome, and don't ever leave that job.

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[Ol Olsoc]

That said, when my parents tried to update their aging laptop from Win7 to Win10, it locked the machine in an infinite reboot cycle, requiring me to make a 400 mile round-trip to fix it and (eventually) get it back to Win7.

I hear so many experiences like this from Windows users.

I used to deal with it myself when my sister-without telling me, bought my father a Vista Basic machine to replace the system I had set up in his house, and of course I got to maintain the POS. Much cgasoline used and many hours.

One thing I do know for certain is Windows users seldom take those long trips and wasted hours into account when they brag about how much money they save over those "expensive Macs".

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[pla]

You have numerical proof of this?

See: Windows 8 adoption rates.

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[Anonymous Coward]

Here we see an example of the disconnect in american society - somebody who believes the entire group of under-30 Americans goes to college and has a laptop.

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[Anonymous Coward]

Inevitably there will be software and hardware that just isn't supported on Windows 7, whether intentionally or by accident

That's sad but true. For WinForms software I develop, I'm still using the same "Vista-Aero" look button and progress bar controls that I've been using since XP, so at least my apps look a bit more Aero-y on Win10.
What I can't stand is software (Piriform and Syncios, I mean YOU) who are forcing the Win 10 look on Win 7 users.

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[Zero__Kelvin]

"That's really not that shocking. Most people don't "upgrade" for the sake of upgrading."

Actually, Windows 10 proves that they do if you offer it is a point and click option in the taskbar, and promise that it is free and shiny, while leaving out that they are selling out their systems security, at least unless they happen to know what they are doing more than the average person clicking that little button.

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[Zero__Kelvin]

"You have numerical proof of this? Or is it a 'gut feeling'?"

Are you a major moron, or a serious moron? You really need proof that adoption rates would be radically different if it were 80 bucks rather than free?

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[Zero__Kelvin]

I'm not sure that's a haiku, but it is 4 poetic lines running straight to Godwin!

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[tepples]

Microsoft carefully engineered it that way by removing your "rational choices" until there was only one (unless you count switching to a decent OS, an option you seem to have missed.)

You could buy a computer with "a decent OS" for $1000 at apple.com, and people in your household would have to wait their turn to use it. Or you could buy two computers with Windows for $500 and a lot less waiting. Unless you're specifically developing apps for OS X or iOS, which is more rational?

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[tepples]

Who is using Windows10?

People whose laptop PCs shipped with Windows 8.1 or 10 and whose manufacturers offered no Windows 7 option with comparable hardware. Or people want security updates to continue past 2019. Or developers testing their applications and device drivers for compatibility with Windows 10.

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[tepples]

Did you try using the Windows 7 graphics driver in the Windows 10 install? Windows 10 supports using Windows 7 drivers.

My Windows 7 PC has an nForce chipset. The Windows 10 upgrade tool won't even let me proceed because NVIDIA refuses to make a Windows 10 driver for its GPU. Or are people supposed to seek out a half height GPU card just to qualify for the Windows 10 upgrade?

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[hairyfeet]

A bit of advice for folks with aging parents who get "Win 10'd"...call the local repair shops in their area! We deal with aging customers all the time, many of us are more than happy to do house calls, and its a HELL of a lot easier for you to simply call the shop and say "Mom has got an issue, please fix it" than it is to spend who knows how many hours on the phone trying to walk somebody who doesn't know computers through a rollback. We can also set up an automated backup routine so if they click the wrong link or make a major mistake they won't lose everything, nothing will break your heart more than having to tell somebody those pics of a long dead relative they didn't have any copies of are gone forever because they didn't have backups.

So consider this a wakeup call, if your folks could have been "Win10'd" they could have gotten a LOT worse, call the local shops, compare rates, and have one set up a backup routine for them. Its a hell of a lot cheaper to just get a USB drive and have the local shop guy help them out than to find out they ended up getting ransomware or some other nasty.

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[flatulus]

No disagreement with your comment; it just reminded me of a Mitch Hedberg joke:

Friend of Mitch: Hey Mitch, look at this picture of me when I was younger!

Mitch: All pictures of you are when you were younger.

All of us are aging, all the time. If you are alive, you are aging.

Re: Is Windows10 a thing?

[Anonymous Coward]

So you're saying buying a POS that cost 1/10th of even a midrange Windows machine causes problems? No way!

The vast majority of problems I've had to support is mostly from rogue apps and malware, not driver issues.

I've even (for giggles) threw in a drive from from different generation (like Win95 harddrive into a machine that runs XP) and it worked perfectly. To be clear, I didn't reinstall anything - one laptop straight to the other.

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[Anonymous Coward]

That W10 machine I'm experimenting with? Almost pretty good. But the same old Windows update crapshoot as always. Now that most people have no choice in the update matter, your computer simply is going to be borked. Even the shills have to be getting tired of this.

Which o/c is bollocks. Had every machine, which you are implying, got borked there would be a bit more of an uproar than the angry nerds complaining MS are trying to give updated software for free.

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[hairyfeet]

Don't worry, your old pal Hairy has got the fix for that bullshit...Bam! Kills the Win 10 spyware dead without making you constantly try to find the "gotcha!" in Windows Update. And for those that may have gotten infected with the backported to Windows 7/8 "telemetry" aka "all ur data" patches? Bam! There is a handy .Bat file in the middle of the page, just run it and it uninstalls the patches and kills any phone home shite, its even updated every month in case MSFT adds more nasties...oh and you're welcome ;-)

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[AmiMoJo]

I think it must be a management decision. Get the adoption rate up by heavily "promoting" the update, not realizing or caring that it will screw up a lot of users who don't fully understand the consequences, or for whom the upgrade will simply fail.

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[RoverDaddy]

Where did I say everybody under the age of 30 goes to college? When I said 'that whole group' I was referring to people who do go to college (who are 99% under 30 after all). You're hearing what you want to hear. GP made it sound as if nobody under 30 uses a computer. I was just pointing out that is not a valid assumption.

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[RoverDaddy]

OSX is a decent OS. Linux is a decent OS. Windows is a decent OS. People manage to use all of the above productively. Make you own choice but don't act as if others aren't allowed to make theirs.

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[Junta]

No, I presumed the system being a relatively unloved 5 year old platform causes MS to recommend waiting for it to be validated. I've had systems that was eager to update within a week of the announce, but my systems built out of older motherboards are not willing to move forward unless I went out of my way to update them.

Re: Is Windows10 a thing?

[Ol Olsoc]

So you're saying buying a POS that cost 1/10th of even a midrange Windows machine causes problems? No way!

.

So you are saying that cost, the raison de etre' of the Windows crowd - is not a metric? I saw a flame war erupt over 5 cents difference in the cost of memory once, and Winders fans are always blathering on about those expensive Mac, to the point that they compare top end macs with the bottom end PC's. My eep netbook is obviously superior to a loaded Mac Pro, right?

You cannot have it both ways. If those bottom end PC's are out there, you can't just go blaming the users for buying them after being conditioned to think they are the best thing since multiple orgasm.

You demand cheap, you get cheap.

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[Ol Olsoc]

That W10 machine I'm experimenting with? Almost pretty good. But the same old Windows update crapshoot as always. Now that most people have no choice in the update matter, your computer simply is going to be borked. Even the shills have to be getting tired of this.

Which o/c is bollocks. Had every machine, which you are implying, got borked there would be a bit more of an uproar than the angry nerds complaining MS are trying to give updated software for free.

You livin' in the future? Or just don't understand "is going to be borked", which is a prediction based on past experience. I've spent a lot of time after patch tuesdays, or whne IT rolled out the updates, fixing bitched up Windows machines.

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[Junta]

Well the post was talking about 5% of people doing this or that, so as a direct response to the comment, usage seems apt.

More popular platform is pretty important even if it's not the favorite. For example I massively prefer a Linux desktop distribution when I'm talking about apples to apples comparison against Windows. However I must use Windows because I need and want software the developers only target Windows. Wine gets far, but ultimately it's an uphill battle. So I have my preferred platform in places, but tolerate Windows because it's the practical choice, not through their technical excellence, but through boring old momentum.

Similarly, I worry about the cost of my preferred hardware platform, desktop systems. If 90% of folks go to a phone, it would be nice if I didn't have a reason to care about what they do, except companies providing these components need to bump margin to offset the reduction of the target market.

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[Qzukk]

Who is using Windows10?

I don't know, but I do know that there are a hundred and ten million users out there somewhere, and that extra ten was a major milestone significant enough to advertise.

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[unixisc]

I upgraded from Windows 8.1 to 10 and don't regret it. Had I had 7, I'd have stayed there. But the 8.1 UI was really unusable. If there is a way to disable Telemetry while in 10, I'd do it, but I'm not gonna downgrade to 8.1. I could consider downgrading to 7 if that option were available

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[Ol Olsoc]

I think it must be a management decision. Get the adoption rate up by heavily "promoting" the update, not realizing or caring that it will screw up a lot of users who don't fully understand the consequences, or for whom the upgrade will simply fail.

To your point, cost is a big selling point for most Windows users, and with the larger installed user base, I'm surprised that W10 is only around the OSX level. Not that I care, it's like smoking famous cigarettes to me.

As well, I've already seen a lot of soundcard issues, where the users machines simply won't produce sound, and won't recognize any devices - well it sort of does - it sees the sound card, but refuses to utilize it in the programs.

The interesting part is when you try to help the users, a few of them get weirdly belligerant about it, claiming Windows says everything is good, so it must be good. I had one guy so pissed off about the fix, which is Windows thinking some outdated drivers are good, but actually aren't, that he refused to do the fix because I was a stupid bastard. Even lied about going to the soundcard support site to update the driver. Some people would rather be "right" than have their machine work.

A few weeks later, he very sheepishly sent email that he finally went to the site, did as told, and it magickly worked.

Another issue is whne a machine refuses to boot. Safe booting in Windows ten is an unholy mess if you've taken the online upgrade path. I had a machine get bitched up by a power surge/outagfe when a remote site lost it's neutral line. It survived, but won't boot to the Desktop. Standard Safeboot methods don't work, so I go online.

Step 1 of the safe boot process - Insert the Windows 10 disk........ oops!

I did have another machine I could make a USB recovery drive with, but we'll see how that works. Probably as good as my W10 disk.

Re: Is Windows10 a thing?

[Anonymous Coward]

Thank you sir for pointing this out.

id rather buy a MacBook every 5 years for $1500 than buy a Windooz machine for $500 every two years.

Every Mac I've ever owned has lasted atleAst 6 years. My oldest is a Mac mini 2009 still running strong and the newest is a late 2012 MacBook Pro.

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[peppepz]

One reason to stay behind could be owning a device that has drivers for Windows 8.1 but no driver, or a crappy one, for Windows 10. While Microsoft have an interest in the users of those devices upgrading to Windows 10, device manufacturers and laptop vendors have no interest in spending resources to support people who have already bought their products. As a result, a surprising amount of recent hardware doesn't work or is buggy under Windows 10.

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[hjf]

I had this problem yesterday.
You need to remove the driver from Windows 7 and use Windows' basic driver.
Then install win 10, and find an old version of the driver, for windows 8. It will work on windows 10.

Now, we can't blame microsoft on this one: In my case it's a Geforce 6150, a motherboard i bought NINE YEARS ago. It's not Microsoft not supporting it, it's nVidia.

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[hjf]

Use ShutUp10 to disable telemetry and other shit.

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[thegarbz]

Some of us updated on purpose. We also go out of our way to block telemetry.

That decision was easy to make since supporting Windows 7 by preventing sneaky telemetry back doors now requires the same effort as doing so with Windows 10.

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[thegarbz]

One thing I do know for certain is Windows users seldom take those long trips and wasted hours into account when they brag about how much money they save over those "expensive Macs".

The funny thing is seeing how long the typical line at the Genius bar is. The real problem here is that Mac users simply outsource their problems while you still support your parents.

Interestingly enough my girlfriend (who is currently on the other side of the world) posted something on Facebook that surprised me. She had a problem with Windows 10 and solved it by talking to the support chat staff on the Microsoft website. Indian and outsourced? Maybe. But she got the result without bugging me.

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[Anonymous Coward]

One thing I do know for certain is Windows users seldom take those long trips and wasted hours into account when they brag about how much money they save over those "expensive Macs".

This is one of the worst arguments I've ever heard against using Windows. This has nothing to do with the OS, and everything to do with your willingness to support someone's computer remotely. Don't want to drive? Remote in or ship the damn thing, or otherwise tell them to figure it out themselves. Don't knock a product just because you choose to be a martyr.

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[wbo]

Windows 10 can use Windows 7 and Windows 8 drivers for pretty much any hardware device. The only challenge comes when there is a Windows 10 driver available that says it supports a particular hardware device but it really doesn't or doesn't work properly.

In that case, you will have manually tell Windows 10 to install the older Windows 7 or 8 driver instead (depending on the device you may have to use Safe mode to do this.)

This works quite well, in fact I have an older system in which the Windows 10 audio driver will cause it to bluescreen randomly while playing audio but is perfectly stable with a Windows 7 driver. I installed the old Windows 7 driver via Device Manager and now the system is perfectly stable.

Re: Is Windows10 a thing?

[Voyager529]

Counterargument: Macbooks aren't always $1,500. They sell units now with 128gb of storage, which fits very little - a handful of phone backups or iPhoto storage will eat that alive. 256 and 512 are obviously preferable, but one must know how much storage they will need at time of purchase, since it's not possible to upgrade later..and units with that amount of internal storage are a lot more expensive - the 1TB upgrade for a MacBook Pro is an $800 add-on. With the USB port count as low as it can go, external storage isn't much fun. You can buy a Synology or similar NAS, but that is necessitated by the storage situation on the machine. "Put it all in iCloud" is the go-to battle cry, but that cost would need to get factored in, and using iCloud at the exclusion of any other storage method means that you're at Apple's mercy to keep your data safe.
Yes, a $1,500 Macbook that holds up for five years is a better deal than a $500 Dell unit every two years...but over ten years, two $1,500 Macbooks + storage solution + de facto mandatory USB adapters + Applecare over ten years is, depending on exactly which combination of things you get, still notably more expensive than five new $500 Dell units over the same period.

Re: Is Windows10 a thing?

[Ol Olsoc]

id rather buy a MacBook every 5 years for $1500 than buy a Windooz machine for $500 every two years.

Every Mac I've ever owned has lasted atleAst 6 years.

Pretty much this. Having owned and used both PC's and Macs since just about forever ago, My Macs have always lasted longer. It's difficult to argue with upfront prices, because most people can't see beyond their nose. But I not only prefer Macs, but they are less expensive in the long run.

I guy I used to sign off on his purches for was really big on how inexpensive PC's were compared to Macs. He was in yapping one day about why we didn't save money by going all Windows PC's. I showed him by brining out the receipts. He was spending alomst twice as much for roughly the same capability.

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[Ol Olsoc]

One thing I do know for certain is Windows users seldom take those long trips and wasted hours into account when they brag about how much money they save over those "expensive Macs".

This is one of the worst arguments I've ever heard against using Windows. This has nothing to do with the OS, and everything to do with your willingness to support someone's computer remotely. Don't want to drive? Remote in or ship the damn thing, or otherwise tell them to figure it out themselves. Don't knock a product just because you choose to be a martyr.

Bullshit - if you can't understand the simple argument I'm making, is that with an Apple, or even my wife's Linux happy, these things don't happen. I haven't had one update hosing on either OS.

I don't have to travel to fix a computer that shouldn't have been fucked up by an update in the first place. Of course it's a stupid argument for you Coward - You can't see beyond your nose.

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[Anonymous Coward]

It seems that 99.9% of all businesses are ignoring it without any peril. AS their adoption of windows 8 caused nothing but problems.

And you were the one telling us all that Windows 8/8.1 was the future of windows..... It seems you were dead wrong.

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[Lumpy]

Major Moron I believe,

At least that is who he goes by as his gamertag on xbox live.

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[blind biker]

and I see no reason to stay behind when the update was free. Windows 10

I can see at least a few reasons for staying with Windows 7 vs. going to Windows 10. Can't you?

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[Zero__Kelvin]

Yes. You are right. There are only two options. There is no third option. Off you go know well known troll ...

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[Zero__Kelvin]

Others are certainly allowed to make their own choice. They can choose from many decent Operating Systems, or they can choose to use Windows. I never said they couldn't choose to use an inferior product and give access to their entire computer (and beyond!) to a third party who has an interest in monetizing their experience that far outweighs their interest in serving them in the way they would prefer or making them secure. They absolutely have the right to deal with a company that has shown time and again to be unscrupulous. I'm not even sure where you got the idea that I was saying they couldn't?. Been hitting the hootch a bit have you?

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[unixisc]

Did it. Thanks!

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[tepples]

If we can blame Microsoft for anything, it's for not automating the process of dropping back to the basic driver, upgrading, and installing the latest working driver. I thought things like that were why I turned on CEIP or whatever Microsoft is calling Windows telemetry nowadays: so that Microsoft could see exactly why my Windows 7 product key is not showing up on the GWX server.

I bought the Acer PC in question in 2011, not knowing then that its chipset was essentially NOS. At the time, it was one of the few slim desktop PCs that came with integrated graphics better than Intel GMA (Graphics My Ass).

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[Ramze]

It's the only rational decision for someone who wishes to stay with Microsoft, at least. If one is using Windows 7 or Windows 8/8.1, then one may as well move to Windows 10 for free and keep the free support and updates coming. The worst parts of Win 10 are being pushed to the older OSes anyway and will likely be required to take more updates.

I enjoy Linux, but the drivers suck -- same for even OSX. Same exact hardware and Windows kills at FPS on games.

I'm slowly making all my Windows machines dual-boot to Linux in the hope that many if not all of them can go to Linux exclusively, but seriously... until AMD and nVidia get their collective butts together to make competent, competitive OpenGL drivers, DirectX is going to mop the floor w/ Linux/OSX on games and future VR tech. I'm anxiously awaiting Wayland or Mir just to replace the ancient X Windows system. I'm starting to think that GNU/Linux might need a complete architectural re-write just to get decent graphics performance. Even Steam can't get great performance out of their linux steamboxes yet -- and their core business is selling and distributing games! I was really hoping Valve/Steam would bring some great tech to Linux to boost things... but alas, no dice yet.

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[Howitzer86]

There are wasted hours on occasion yes, but the trick is to not fix your relative's (often shitty) computers. I make it a point not to, and my parents are pretty good with their own machines these days anyway.

My poor aunt though, she can never remember her password. She's always asking for help recovering it. So I finally told her, "I don't have the magic solution to that, but I can tell you what I did to figure it out the last time it happened." There's a tool you can use for Windows XP that'll reset passwords, but I don't think it works on newer systems so I'd start at square one. If I'm to start from Google, why can't she?

Re: Is Windows10 a thing?

[omnichad]

But it's not the manufacturer or the quality. It's simply being forced to buy better. It's hard to buy junk from Apple, because they don't sell much of it. You can do the same by spending $1500 on a Windows PC.

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[peppepz]

I've had mixed success with that: most hardware will indeed work, but you may run into problems. For instance, for some reason older webcam drivers will work on Windows 10 in desktop applications, but won't work with Modern applications (you get a black picture or a “camera is busy” error). Display drivers are also problematic: I had a kind of netbook with an AMD APU, bought just two years ago, for which AMD have stated that they won't release a proper driver for Windows 10, and that I'm not supposed to use the one for Windows 8.1. In other cases I have solved the problem as you say by forcing a specific driver in place of the one that Windows had selected automatically, but it has happened to me that some time later Windows Update replaced the driver that I had installed with a newer version of the one that doesn't work. I can live fixing that each time it happens but I wouldn't recommend my aunt to have a machine in this situation.

Come to think of it, my biggest source of trouble with the Windows 10 update have been AMD drivers: I can report a laptop which can't adjust the brightness level, another one that pauses for 60s on startup and resume, and another one which isn't able to play videos without stuttering.

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[Anonymous Coward]

Great advice. But above all, get them off of Windows permanently.

The Apple store opens at 10am every morning. Or bring an Ubuntu ISO with you when you visit for Thanksgiving.

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't see a link where I can download the source code. How do I know I can trust these guys?

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[Anonymous Coward]

A socialist like you would be worried about being cut off from updates. Of course, if you understood the concept of individual responsibility, you'd be practicing sane operation which preempts most attacks.

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[ChunderDownunder]

I bought a second hand Toshiba laptop a few months back. It had been wiped with a clean image of Windows 7.

7 -> 10 upgrade went fine initially but then a subsequent update gave random blue screens.

An out of date Atheros wifi driver was the cause. I was able to find a newer release from Toshiba's site and yes, I needed to boot Windows in safe-mode to override the driver.

So my advice is to hunt down the newest drivers for one's hardware before upgrading.

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[Anonymous Coward]

A mac? You can't even cut and paste with that.

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[unixisc]

Sure, those Macbooks are so much affordable!

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[mikael]

Gamers. If you want a laptop like a MSI GT72, you get Windows 10 pre-installed. You can run Windows 7 on such laptops, but the drivers for the SteelSeries keyboard backlight and the USB ports are only available for Windows 10. The driver CD and the downloads just will not work for Windows 7.

Microsoft has put some code in the DirectX driver such that certain 3D rendering features are just not available unless Windows 10 is in use.

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[Anonymous Coward]

Or you could buy four computers with ChromeOS for $250, give everyone a machine, and have no waiting. Unless you're specifically developing apps for Windows or Winphone, which is more rational? =p

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[hairyfeet]

LULWut? You DO know that Macs have more vulnerabilities than Windows right? And that your parents would have to live in someplace like NYC or LA for the cost of a decent MB to be cheaper than a half dozen or more service calls, yes? Hell the most expensive shops that I know of only charge $40 an hour for service calls and unless they are incompetent most jobs can be handled in under an hour...your parents would have to be calling a couple times a week for 6 months just for you to break even! Finally I have yet to meet this "mythical person" that only uses a browser, if that was your parents? Get them a tablet or put them on Ubuntu, but more likely they have multiple Windows programs they use, hell that is what they got the PC to run in the first place!

So sorry Macs are NOT the answer to elderly parents, it will cost more, create more problems than it solves, the only one that will benefit from that move is Apple shareholders.

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[unixisc]

I googled. Anyway, here you go - http://www.oo-software.com/en/...

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[unixisc]

I overlooked your question about the source code. Never mind. I'd have thought that all the FOSSies are already in Linux or one of the BSDs by now

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[Anonymous Coward]

I use Win7Pro on my desktop because it simply works and doesn't spy on me.

I have Win8.1Pro on my work laptop. The UI is awkward, but its what I needed for work.

I updated both to Win10Pro. Initially, it seemed to go very smoothly. Then some update hit and my Win7 desktop upgrade started hitting the dreaded "Start menu failure" bug (where essentially all the new metro-style apps, including the Start menu, fail to execute). I found it was tied to some sort of security failure. The update tweaked something that caused a permissions failure that stopped all the metro apps from working. The failure was tied to the profile I was using when the update was installed. Other logins would work properly. After fighting this for a while only to have subsequent patches break things again, I finally gave up and re-installed Win7 (oddly, Win7 supports all hardware in my desktop, Win10 does not).

On my work laptop, I never hit that critical failure bug, but I did start having problems with Chrome after resuming from sleep. The display pane in Chrome would start all black. Shutting down and restarting Chrome would eliminate the problem. I've left Win10 on my work laptop because it is not misbehaving badly enough to warrant a rollback - but it is definitely not working as well as Win8.1 worked (though the UI is better under Win10).

Basically, MS has bought into the "agile" model where there is no QA cycle to move from an RC version of the code to GA (i.e. "always releasable"). They think they can get away with it by emulating Google that gives away all its stuff for free (of course, the problem is that MS is releasing software that people install and use to do actual work where as Google is releasing web apps that merely have to be interesting enough to get people to look at them so that Google can deliver ads for revenue).

What MS should do is stop all this insanity and put Win7 into eternal maintenance mode. Pay $39.95 a year and MS will continue to supply patches and driver support forever. Everybody will be happy. No one will have to upgrade/replace hardware to simply keep current with their O/S. Companies won't have to fork out mountains of money to upgrade/replace apps when the existing apps are no longer supported under a new OS. No more expense to retrain IT staff and change/replace SOPs. MS will be happy because it is a reliable and predictable revenue stream. Hardware vendors will be happy because they won't have a bewildering array of slightly different APIs that they have to code to for their hardware drivers (meaning, less cost to develop new hardware).

Now if MS would just hire me as VP in charge of making obvious decisions, we could get this done...

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[unixisc]

My comment was facetious - sorry that it wasn't obvious

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[hairyfeet]

My apologies then, been dealing with some serious nutjobs on Disqus, don't know which is worse, the Win 10 worshippers or the Apple iHeads, both are batshit.

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[hjf]

Microsoft DOES have a fully working basic driver, but it requires WDDL 2.0 which your chipset doesn't support.

Fun fact: after replacing my 2009 laptop's motherboard with GeForce 8400M that died from overheating, for another model with Intel GMA, not only does it work fine, it also works with windows 10 using the "INF Update" (a small installer that tells the system "This PCI ID will work with your basic driver"). And, alas, the laptop with GMA graphics has a much smoother desktop than the geforce 6150 desktop.

Go figure.

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[tepples]

I was under the impression that entire categories of applications that were unavailable for Chrome OS. One of them is the compiler needed for a high school student's programming class, which runs on Windows, OS X, and GNU/Linux, but not Chrome OS. SSH ceases to be enough once the student gets to the graphics chapter.

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[KGIII]

She's never upgraded the kernel in those two years? You might want to double check on your wife's computer. She's doing something wrong if she wants to have those updates take effect. For the record, the laptop next to this one has Linux Mint Cinnamon on it - this one has Lubuntu and a couple other distros on it. However, if she's had it for a couple of years and has only done the reboot once then she's missing something, probably. If you want the new kernel then a reboot is required. There are security updates included in kernel releases. I'd say those qualify as required reboots, no?

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[KGIII]

The thing about blocking telemetry is that it's a two edged sword. Now, when features you like are disabled you'll have nobody to blame but you and the other "power users" who decided to block their usage data gathering. A recent thread on this site was a good indicator of the potential results of this. It means you're letting the not-so-savvy folks decide the metrics given to the vendor and thus will get a product designed around their usage patterns.

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[thegarbz]

The irony is that I was the one who pointed that out in the other thread.

I guess I'm a slow learner :-)

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[KGIII]

You're gonna be right pissed when Microsoft takes away the control panel and regedit!

Err... I'm assuming that those are still a thing. I have, technically, officially touched a Windows 10 laptop now. As in used Windows 10 for about five minutes or so. It seemed nice enough. I'm not really a Windows user as of late so I don't actually know much about Windows 10 except that I need to check when people make extreme claims to see if they're actually telling the truth.

I didn't stop using Windows out of any ethical reasons or anything. I was just not learning anything new. I'd always kept Linux installed but I rarely used it. I realized that I'd not use it if I kept Windows installed. So, I simply got rid of Windows. My MSDN subscription has even expired. I think I'd had Linux installed on a partition pretty much constantly since the late 1990s but I just didn't use it often. So, I made the switch.

It'd be nice if one could turn off all the telemetry and data collection that Microsoft does, easily and perhaps with optional controls. Honestly? I'd probably leave it enabled on my Windows installs if I had some Windows installs to enable it on. I do, now, have a Windows phone and I'm pretty sure it's enabled on that. Some data, of course, has to be sent out if you want things like a robust search (searching the web, your online "cloud" documents, etc) or that digital assistant thing to work with any advanced features. From what I've read, from less biased sources, you can disable the live tiles (I think they're called) if they bother you and games can be had for free, or free with ads with ads, or even by paying.

Meh... It sounds like a fine OS. But, yeah, turning off the telemetry means that your voice is not heard. It'd appear you know this and I'll avoid preaching to the choir. It's going to cause an outrage if something like Group Policy Editor, Regedit, and the control panel disappear because the people who typically use those are advanced users and more likely to block telemetry data collection. I will, of course, chuckle.

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[Anonymous Coward]

Mint doesn't install kernel updates by default. In fact, they're not even shown in the updater interface.

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[KGIII]

That'd explain it. Who the hell leaves stuff rated at 5 as disabled? There's security updates in them there codes! A quick looks shows that they're enabled here which means I must have seen fit to change them. I deleted my VM image not long ago but I imagine it was enabled there as well.

I read the description and it does "look scary!" So, maybe that's why people leave it disabled? It seems rather silly and, well, wrong.

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[thegarbz]

Honestly I'm not against telemetry. I am however against dishonesty.

The analysis that has been done shows that all sorts of things are sent to Microsoft even when expressly prevented. I.e. From Australia there was a conclusion that not only was Cortana no available in the country anyway but when disabled in Windows, expressly told to not gather data, offer suggestions, or "learn" about you, non the less everytime something was typed into the LOCAL search box encrypted packets were whisked away to the Cortana servers.

On the flip side my Android phone doesn't send information if I don't enable it. Some features don't work as well but they are very up front and clear about it. Google also provide a website that e.g. allows me to see exactly the location data that is being sent and collected, and as scary as that seems I leave it on because I happily trade some of that data in exchange for accurate traffic maps during navigation (just an example).

I think if Microsoft were more honest, open, and up-front about the telemetry then we wouldn't be discussing it nearly as much.

At least they are being upfront about their attack on the Control Panel. The only reason it is still accessible (albeit via a search or a discrete right click) is that their new Settings menu isn't complete yet.

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[KGIII]

I'm inclined to agree entirely. If I used Windows then I'd probably allow them to collect the telemetry data. What'd be disappointing is that turning off the features doesn't fully disable their connections to the Windows servers. I think such should be optional. I can't say that it should be a mandatory option because I'm not a fan of controlling others and it's their OS to ruin as they see fit. I do think that it should be optional and in easily understood terms rather than couched in legal terms in a EULA.

I suspect that, technically, Microsoft is being honest, in a strict sense of the word. They probably make some disclosures concerning data collection, in a vague way, in the EULA and one consents prior to installing the OS. If they were doing so without consent (even if it's couched in legal terms and unlikely to be read) then they're probably committing a crime somewhere on the planet. I'd assume their legal team is a bit smarter than that - but I could be mistaken.

I don't want to defend Microsoft but I feel compelled to do so by stating this: So far, and considering the number of attacks they must face, Microsoft has been pretty good stewards of the data they collect. I think it is reasonable to believe that a breech would have been made public (by the persons who did so) and they've collected this, and similar, data for many years now without any known intrusions. I'd assume that it is also not tied to a specific user though it could probably be tied to a user with some other databases and some effort. Thus, I'd probably not try to block it if it were my computer.

Of course, like you, I'd much rather they be open and honest about it. I'd much prefer a switch that disabled it, including updates, that worked as advertised. I'd have a greater appreciation for the ability to refine, view, and optionally edit the data that was transmitted but I may be asking a bit much and may not be able to reasonably expect such.

As mentioned before, I'm not using Linux because of any altruistic reasons. I've had Linux installed on one partition or another since the 1990s. I'm using it because I was no longer learning anything new with Windows and I felt that I was disappointing myself and I realized that I'd not ever take the time to learn more about it if I didn't use it to the exclusion of everything else. I like to poke, break, and learn - without that, I feel lazy and as if I'm not accomplishing anything important. So, if anything, consider that when considering my opinions - if it matters/helps.

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[vandamme]

Put an ISO of Linux Mint on a flash drive, and this Thanksgiving, install it on Mom's machine. Set her up with her favourite wallpaper and a decent Solitaire, and TeamView or equivalent (tell her NOT to run it unless you call).

End of problem.

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[vandamme]

And all it took was giving it away, expensive hype and advertising, and constant nagging and shoving it down people's throats.

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[vandamme]

There are Linux distros that are a lot easier to install. (Lots that aren't, of course.) Mint, Zorin, Elementary. Half an hour, and you're back to work.

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[martinfb]

Yep. Win10 sucks less than Win8.x. Yet, Win7 sucks less than Win10. WinXP sucks less than Win7 - IF it were kept up to date beyond MS EOL choices. Please note that MS is looking hard at a Linux system themselves! Does anyone see a pattern here?! It's past time for MS to start PAYING for premium engineers, and stop the "we know better than all users so we will control the horizontal; we control the vertical" mentality. And, changing interfaces and structures every year or 2 is just plain way too drastic for humanity to tolerate! (We - mankind) might be able to stablize if we did not have to spend so much energy learning new ways to do the same things so often -- all just to pad a few pockets with dollars! Perhaps offer a different 'skin' or interface as an option, along with security and functionality updates. And, above ALL, release NO system before it's time (i.e. well tested and debugged) - irregardless of what the stockholders want! Most stockholders are totally unqualified for these decisions!

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[Anonymous Coward]

My smarter brother bought my mom a mac, and then moved out of state. Maintaining that expensive piece of crap is a nightmare in the daytime. Each time there is a problem, there are dozens of windows open, every app she ever touched is still running, and each email is open in three different windows.

I see no benefit to having a mac, unless you have a sibling you wish to annoy.

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[thegarbz]

I don't want to defend Microsoft but I feel compelled to do so by stating this: So far, and considering the number of attacks they must face, Microsoft has been pretty good stewards of the data they collect.

I concur. I fully trust Microsoft to store my data. I just don't trust them to collect it. Their methods leave a lot to be desired, and I say that as someone who defended the design of the Windows 10 installer which only gave options to adjust the data collection by carefully reading the fine print in the corner of the screen and realising there was a button there.

Better than nothing in my books, which is what you get from a lot of other people. But it still irks me that those options seem to pay lip service to the customer. It's not really that I don't want my information gathered, it's that I'm not sure what the measurable benefit to me is. I suppose Windows 10 is free, but I can't help thinking this is the OS used in some of the most critical applications controlling our world, and it has a manufacturer provided leak point for data.

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[tepples]

I'd have thought that all the FOSSies are already in Linux

That's fine so long as you can find a PC that is compatible with GNU/Linux and meets your other requirements. This should be easy for desktops, but for laptops, I can think of four routes, all with problems:

Buy a laptop that ships with GNU/Linux System76's offerings are relatively expensive compared to a low-end Windows PC, and at the moment, none are smaller than the 14" Lemur. It used to be easy to find small, affordable, GNU/Linux-compatible laptops before the category was discontinued at the end of 2012. Buy a laptop that ships with Android Android uses the same kernel as GNU/Linux. But Android uses a drastically different userland that has the "full screen calculator" problem, and is there a good alternative to the functionality of the build-essential package of Debian? Buy a laptop that ships with Windows, wipe Windows, and install GNU/Linux These are warranted for compatibility with Windows, not GNU/Linux. I've found several where basic things fail on Linux, such as X205TA and T100TA. Buy a used laptop These aren't even warranted at all.

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[KGIII]

A long time ago, I was an MS MVP (shell/explorer, IE/OE, and security - all three at the same time at one point) and I still have some contacts in the company and in the program. I am too lazy to Google but I imagine that one can find corroborating information online but I'm not entirely sure that it is 'for the public.'

I believe the ultimate goal is a more tailored OS with security and other updates being tailored specifically for your usage. If you have, for example, a combination of hardware that is less than ideal or a combination of hardware and software that causes system halts (or similar things, you get the idea) then you'll get patches specifically tailored to your use case and to your needs entirely. This will be done in a truly autonomous fashion, is the goal, and will result in a (theoretically) better experience and better performance and better security.

To do this, they need to start with collecting huge amounts of data - I mean huge. In the late 1990s, the data sets I was working with approached a full terabyte in size. I modeled human behavior and it is damned close to modeling chaos. I can't even begin to fathom the resources needed to do something like this. We were clustering Sun blade servers with disk arrays in a full blown data center (we called it a server room but it had connectivity as well in its own "closet"). We were at the cusp of a fairly immature science and a very immature process (we did traffic modeling on modern hardware, eventually including pedestrian traffic) and, again, I say that to quantify this: I have no idea how they're going to manage this much data or be able to pull meaningful data from it.

However, I'm damned impressed at the goal and effort. I'd have moved closer to the Computer as a Service over IP model (if that's not an official term then it is now) and worked in that direction. That they're going this way is actually saying more for privacy than the opposite. It's saying more for device ownership than it would be otherwise. It's sort of counter to the cloud model and would probably be simpler and cheaper to avoid. But they're going to need a lot of data to get there. It looks like they're aiming for a more tailored OS than ever before and, instead of taking the cheap shots and putting it on their hardware and maintaining control, they're actually trying to do this on hardware that you still own and have nominal, at least, control over it.

I find it fascinating and don't see this reaching fruition for quite some time but it does tie in nicely with the idea that Windows 10 is their last OS release. I am no longer covered by an NDA and can repeat what I was told as I was not told that any part of it was particularly secret. I think that I've read a few published articles that alluded to it or expanded on the details.

So, what do you get? Nothing, perhaps. A really nice, stable, and more secure operating system - if all goes well. Do you want it to go well? Enable telemetry and data collection. They've done exceptionally well at maintaining that data in a secure fashion. Look at how huge a target they are and think about the many attacks they must face on a constant basis - yet no known breeches have occurred. I'm operating under the assumption that a breech would result in publicity for a whole host of reasons. I think that's a a reasonable conclusion. If you don't give a shit then, by all means, disable it.

I think we're pretty much in agreement. I did want to take the time to share the little that I've been made aware of. I'm no longer using any Microsoft products on my general compute devices (I do have a Windows phone but I don't actually do any real computing on it - I've never even sent a text message with it) and I'm not inclined to change that, currently. My motivations are really quite different than the typical motivations that we read about. I don't use Linux for altruistic reasons and given the totality of what I donate and have donated over the years, I'm not inclined to say that it's really free as in beer. at least n

Re:Is Windows10 a thing?

[thegarbz]

I think we're pretty much in agreement. I did want to take the time to share the little that I've been made aware of.

Thanks for sharing your views. It really is quite fascinating to read people's backgrounds rather than just the occasional rant here on /.

Someday, probably, I'll return to Windows. I hope that the control panel is still there, that group police editor is still functioning

Some things are stable. Microsoft will always provide a way for enterprise management of machines, and Microsoft will always provide a one stop shop for system configuration. They may not be called group policy editor, or control panel but both of those will exist in some form for any foreseeable future.

If you're curious, there's an 1800 pound gingerbread house in the lobby

Oh wow. So the town is famous for something other than the saying "Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo" :-)

Re: Is Windows10 a thing?

[Anonymous Coward]

I call bs on your post. Not only do I not believe buddy would email you weeks later and cop to it, but if you have boot failures, it goes to the troubleshooting screen automatically, just like win 8. If you really needed a disk, your drive was corrupted or damaged, but I still think this is PEBKAC.

Hopefully this is temporary

[Fencepost]

I've seen some commentary that indicated bug problems, so hopefully this is temporary.

The reason it should be temporary is that the upgrade process seems to take AT LEAST as long as the original upgrade install from Windows 7 did, and since the upgrade leaves behind a windows.old directory so you can roll it back I'm not sure how that interacts with an initial upgrade from Windows 7/8/8.1.

Re:Hopefully this is temporary

[Anonymous Coward]

Just hung up the phone with my dad.
He got that somehow, and started installing it - very long install yeah. After 30% his PC turned off as if it needed to restart, except it did not.
When turning it back on, the recovery assistant popped up, but ended up failing to restore the system.
He had to reinstall the whole thing, and all his apps. At least it managed to preserve his files and profile....

Re:Hopefully this is temporary

[pushing-robot]

Yeah, the new update supports activation directly from Windows 7/8 keys instead of needing to be installed on top of an existing 7/8 to activate the first time. Word is there's a problem with some PCs that have Win8 keys stored in the BIOS; the new installer is reading the key but then activating Windows 10 Embedded/IoT instead of the correct edition.

Re:Hopefully this is temporary

[Anonymous Coward]

Supposedly due to some low cost tablet/laptop devices that use SD cards for storage are getting bricked by the update.

(workaround; pull any SD cards before install, reinsert after install. Obviously not workable for devices that have the OS on one and ones that have SD card that is not user-removeable)

Re:Hopefully this is temporary

[squiggleslash]

I suspect that's exactly the problem. I've been experiencing, on both my testbeds (a tablet and an old laptop) frequent BSoDs with the new version, and even the installation of the update had problems (on the tablet it would get stuck at 40%, which I found out afterwards was because I have an SD card installed. Yes, seriously.)

I'm still a little baffled they released Windows 10 at all. I'd have released Windows 8.11 (8.1 with a traditional start menu), which would have bought them time to polish 10, get the bugs out of it, and make it awesome (which it could be, the damned thing has potential) - but as it is, they've released something obviously Beta-quality as a production operating system, and I can't for the life of me understand why.

Re:Hopefully this is temporary

[DigiShaman]

It's about licensing enforcement most assuredly. They're trying to deprecate existing installations of Windows 7 via a physical over-write with Windows 10. They DO NOT want you using the same key to keep both installations of Windows 7 and Windows 10 at the same time. So they force the issue by insuring you can't just do a clean install without first upgrading the key within the existing installation of Windows 7 first. Microsoft released a newer ISO, found out it broke this licensing enforcement model, and now are pulling it ASAP out of realization. That's the only thing I can conclude from all this.

Probable reason?

[Anonymous Coward]

Activation with Win 7 serial on clean install was too good to be true?
Maybe someone hacked this?

So, basically ...

[gstoddart]

So essentially they're still using everyone as beta testers, releasing shitty untested software, hiding what updates actually do, and taking away our choice if we want to install this shit or not.

Sorry, Microsoft ... we're not your damned beta testers.

This whole bullshit of "we're going to install Windows 10 on your machine whether you like it or not" has to go. At this point, you really can't trust that any given update from Microsoft isn't the one which is going to start installing Windows 10 and screw up you computer. And, as much as they seem to think otherwise, if it your computer.

Hey, Microsoft ... why don't you shove Windows 10 up your ass, instead of trying to shove it up ours?

Re:So, basically ...

[Anonymous Coward]

"Sorry, Microsoft ... we're not your damned beta testers."

Actually... you are.

Not by choice mind you, unless we decide to include installing Windows 10 as acceptance of this. (Especially after it's been made perfectly clear what you're stepping into - forced updates, lack of choice, spyware reporting back to microsoft, etc etc)

Re:So, basically ...

[hairyfeet]

Are you surprised? I can't believe I'm saying this but could we start a "Bring Back the Ballmernator" campaign? at least Ballmer only tried to rip off the Apple company (poorly) but Nadella with his spying, refusing to say what he is actually installing on YOUR PC (only other companies I've seen do that are ones making malware) and outright trying to force Windows "All ur data belong to us" 10 on users PCs like a fucking driveby malware attack? Well sheeit, he makes Ballmer look like a big sweaty care bear!

I'm happy to say all of my customers are following my advice and treating Windows 10 like plague blankets and talking to others like IT guys working medical? All the spying crap has made sure Win 10 isn't welcome in their businesses either. So congrats Nadella, you may actually beat Ballmer when it comes to making the most hated OS, you have already made it so...gag...I have to actually recommend Windows fricking 8 as at least you can rip out the appstore spying crap and replace the GUI with Classic Shell and have a useful OS under your control, something that cannot be done with Windows 10 as of yet.

Re:So, basically ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Lets be honest here. Any software that you use, including Linux, is you beta testing them. There's no such thing as a "final product" when it comes to software. When a software claim it is "final", it just means that they gave up trying to update it all the time and now it's just abandonware.

Re:So, basically ...

[Anonymous Coward]

But you don't pay for Linux. You do pay for Windows.

Re:So, basically ...

[thegarbz]

So essentially they're still using everyone as beta testers, releasing shitty untested software, hiding what updates actually do, and taking away our choice if we want to install this shit or not.

How does this confirm that? They are now giving you the choice to install the original release and to update via Windows update. This is no different than service packs for earlier versions of Windows.

Also Microsoft has a beta program. It's called Windows Insiders. It's actually one of the largest such beta programs in the world and they get the product quite a while to test before you did.

None of what you said made any sense in the context of this announcement.

Re:So, basically ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Spit out that microsoft dick you're nursing on.

It will further stunt your mental growth, which I don't think you can afford.

Re:So, basically ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Small Time Computer Shop Guy Tells People to Install Windows 8

News at 11

(You do realise that the spying crap is pushed in updates to Win8 as well?)
 

running an entire Windows installer

[flowerp]

The requirement to run an entire OS installation routine for a minor upgrade is ridiculous.
They should have handled this more like service packs.

Christian

Re:running an entire Windows installer

[Ol Olsoc]

The requirement to run an entire OS installation routine for a minor upgrade is ridiculous. They should have handled this more like service packs.

Christian

What they should do is do an update to get rid of the damnable forced updates. They are getting closer and closer to the apocalypse predicted for the XP machines. One of these days, a sizable number of W10 users will wake up with their tailored Windows experience being a computer that won't boot.

Re:running an entire Windows installer

[Anonymous Coward]

The requirement to run an entire OS installation routine for a minor upgrade is ridiculous.
They should have handled this more like service packs.

Christian

What they should do is do an update to get rid of the damnable forced updates. They are getting closer and closer to the apocalypse predicted for the XP machines. One of these days, a sizable number of W10 users will wake up with their tailored Windows experience being a computer that won't boot.

Don't use their spyware shit. It's a sham, a lie, and a trap.

http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/08/microsoft-has-no-plans-to-tell-us-whats-in-windows-patches/
http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/09/leaks-show-that-microsoft-writes-release-notes-so-why-cant-it-publish-them/

https://www.gnu.org/proprietary/malware-microsoft.html
http://www.computerworlduk.com/blogs/open-enterprise/how-can-any-company-ever-trust-microsoft-again-3569376/
http://www.networkworld.com/article/2956574/microsoft-subnet/windows-10-privacy-spyware-settings-user-agreement.html

http://www.technobuffalo.com/2013/08/22/nsa-windows-8-exploit/
http://www.technobuffalo.com/2013/07/11/microsoft-gave-the-nsa-direct-backdoor-access-to-outlook-skype/
http://winsupersite.com/windows-10/how-stop-windows-10-upgrade-downloading-your-system
http://www.extremetech.com/computing/195592-with-windows-10-microsoft-could-move-to-a-subscription-based-model
http://www.extremetech.com/computing/205320-microsoft-windows-10-will-be-the-last-version-of-windows
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GU5uv28a3I
http://techrights.org/2015/07/31/vista-10-anticompetitive/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwRYyWn7BEo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gghj03J_ri0
http://localghost.org/posts/a-traffic-analysis-of-windows-10
http://www.ghacks.net/2015/08/28/microsoft-intensifies-data-collection-on-windows-7-and-8-systems/

THESE
https://gitlab.com/windowslies/blockwindows
^(have to uncomment the #'s on two url's in the hosts file per latest change)
https://senk9.wordpress.com/checklists/windows-10-privacy-checklist/
^Applies to 7/8/8.1 too.

OneDrive All Over Again - Giveth, Taketh Away

[Anonymous Coward]

Lord Satyea has spoken .. Microsoft Givith.. Microsoft Taketh away.. that will be $299 please

Re:OneDrive All Over Again - Giveth, Taketh Away

[Anonymous Coward]

Lord Nikon was not amused..

Must be a massive conspiracy

[93 Escort Wagon]

I mean, what other explanation could there be?

Oops, we fogot the new telemtry stuff!

[JoeyRox]

Pull back the ISO and get that in there.

Re:Oops, we fogot the new telemtry stuff!

[thegarbz]

The "new telemetry stuff" was the option to disable telemetry for enterprise users.

MSDN Still has the ISOs

[BenJeremy]

Downloading images I didn't get (Enterprise x64 and 32-bit, Multiple Version 32-bit) using my MSDN account.

I wanted them handy to install directly using the Windows 7 and Windows 8 serials, as well as the semi-fixed start menu (limit changed from 512 to 2048 items).

Perhaps they were only pulled on the public channel?

"Wish"?

[PopeRatzo]

Microsoft spokesperson confirmed they wish people install the older version

And I wish I'm gonna win the Lotto, but it ain't gonna happen either.

Re:Must be a massive conspiracy ^H incompetence

[redelm]

"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by simple incompetence" [Napoleon] In the case of MSFT and other large bureaucracies, there may be no "simple", only complex incompetence.

So here's the thing

[koan]

With all the complaining about Spyware10 (Win10) we had folks shutting off as much as they could.
Because of the way it auto updates the home users, I wonder how many of the settings people switched off will stay off.

Every time I updated a Macbook it turned "location services" in "security & privacy" preference pane back on.

Is windows going to do this as well? Imagine auto updates resetting all those choices you made... to what M$ wants of course.

Re:So here's the thing

[phishybongwaters]

Cortana re-appeared after I unlinked it from my menu after the last update (assuming the november update) but I did have a hard drive failure around the same time.

Re:So here's the thing

[koan]

Maybe the HD failure was punishment for turning Cortana off. *wink*

Re: So here's the thing

[Anonymous Coward]

I've never had this problem. My options stay in place across upgrades and updates.

The NEW ISO's make it easyer with keys

[Joe_Dragon]

The NEW ISO's make it easier with keys as they take old 7 and 8 keys making clean installs easy to do Also less bandwidth usage

Re:Microsoft Pulls Windows 10

[Anonymous Coward]

... and find out how bad it sucks, then go buy a Mac.

Newer ISO was much nicer for Corporate

[GreenEnvy22]

I got the 1511 ISO from or volume licensing site download. It's much nicer for us as we use PXE to install to clients. The old ISO wouldn't work for installing a clean install from PXE on a computer with Win 8 Pro licenses (in the BIOS). The new one it installs and activates fine, grabbing that Win8 Pro key from the BIOS. So no need to do an in place upgrade first. I'll keep using the 1511 ISO unless the block it somehow.

Re:Newer ISO was much nicer for Corporate

[Anonymous Coward]

... unless you need FDE. 1511 broke bitlocker on SEDs.

found in UAT...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, I was involved. We pull the build 'cause the telemetry wasn't working.
This was discovered in UAT. We noticed the users were generally getting a
positive user experience from the product, so by definition, something was very,
very wrong. We don't think too much damage was done, however, we are watching
the social media groups and will remotely delete any version of the product
providing such an experience.

CAP === 'handful'

Cellular conspiracy

[tepples]

Some Windows users are stuck on cellular, with a monthly data allowance measured in the single digit GB, because they live outside the service area of the local cable company and the local DSL company, and the city is unwilling to allow any FTTH company access to its right of way. At this point I wonder whether cellular carriers that carry Microsoft Lumia phones are paying Microsoft to do this so that they can charge an overage fee twice: once for 3 GB of Windows 10 per PC in a household and again for 3 GB of updates per PC in a household.

Re:Cellular conspiracy

[unixisc]

But Windows 10 Mobile ain't out as yet - all the Windows Phones out there still have Windows Phone 8.1. So that issue hasn't come to phones as yet. And those w/ Verizon - it'll be a while before Windows 10 Mobile will be supported, if ever.

Re:Cellular conspiracy

[tepples]

I was referring to Windows tablets and Windows laptops whose primary Internet connection is through a mobile hotspot: "If you can figure out a way to rack up more overages for our mobile broadband customers, we'll push your Lumia phones harder in our stores." I apologize for not being clear about this.

Re:Cellular conspiracy

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't the issue that you've got a limited connection, not that the files are too large? I fail to see how this is M$ fault.

Re:Cellular conspiracy

[tepples]

The issue is software publishers' failure to accommodate users who, through no reasonable fault of their own, are forced into a Hobson's choice of either a limited connection or no connection at all.

Re:Microsoft Pulls Windows 10

[Anonymous Coward]

... and then everybody wakes up!

Re:Must be a massive conspiracy ^H incompetence

[Anonymous Coward]

"Never attribute to ...

While uttering that now famous phrase Napoleon was most likely talking about people who worked for him.

Do not think you can use the same phrase when the other party (company) is working for themselves.

For situations like that the next phrase is more aplicable:

"Do not attribute to stupidity which can easily be explained by greed".

Re:Microsoft Pulls Windows 10

[Anonymous Coward]

... and find out how bad it sucks, then go buy a Mac.

If only Mac had a decent UI, Because their current one sucks; and just keeps getting worse: "Here lets more features, hide them behind gestures and not document them outside of press releases!"

Dare I say that Windows 10 is good?

[Tighe_L]

I have used Linux as my primary computer since before RH 5.2 and Solarius in college before that. I just set up a Windows 10 drive on my home computer, and find it to be a decent OS. I use Windows 7 at work and think that 10 is an improvement.

Re:Dare I say that Windows 10 is good?

[unixisc]

I like Windows 10 as well. As far as Telemetry and spying go, I just installed ShutUp10, which gave me a list of everything I can block. I just went ahead and did it.

Like I said above, I wouldn't have switched had it been from Windows 7, but that hasn't been widely available on computers for a while now, unless one does some digging, and also, support for it will end by 2020. Windows 8.1 was so bad and unusable on this laptop that I switched completely to PC-BSD. I had to get another one for Windows, which came w/ Windows 8.1, and I upgraded it to Windows 10 on July 29th. Have been very happy w/ it. Only thing I wanted to disable is the daily updates, and I think ShutUp10 will enable me to do it.

My only complaint about Windows 10 was that on my Winbook tablet, I couldn't get the latest update that would enable me to have more tiles on a screen in tablet mode. Other than that, I'm good.

Re:Dare I say that Windows 10 is good?

[Chewbacon]

Took me a little while to get it working the way I want (just like linux!) but now I'm content with it. I still use Ubuntu 90% of the time when I don't need Office or some weird browser plugin for my studies. I may try Shutup10 to ease my privacy concerns.

Can Microsoft handle this new subscriber Windows?

[Anonymous Coward]

So how many got this pulled Windows update/upgrade for November before realizing a problem? Another real problem with how Microsoft deals with these big updates or upgrades as I call them. I had one notebook get the 1511 upgrade but then the rest of my PC's did not? The issue of course is if their is a problem with the upgrade. Your at the mercy of Microsoft to release a fix for it. Unless your running a enterprise or business edition of Win 10.
So far for me, not having a lot of confidence in Microsoft and how they update Windows 10 so far.

Re: Microsoft Pulls Windows 10

[Anonymous Coward]

What? Nothing is hidden on my mac. There are not hidden screen gestures. Only gestures are trackpad related, and they are optional.

I lucked out (depending on how you look at it)

[stangbat]

My HP Stream 13 would not even pull down the update via Windows update due to it not having enough hard drive space (HD is only 30 gig). After much work, I finally got the update to install last Friday using the media creation tool. If I didn't have the tool available, I doubt I could have gotten the thing to even try and update in the first place.

Re:I lucked out (depending on how you look at it)

[unixisc]

I had the same issue on my Winbook - 32GB of flash disk. Gave it to MS store, they did what they could, but it doesn't have the latest update, given that the extra tiles ain't available

Re:Microsoft Pulls Windows 10

[Anonymous Coward]

Tim Cook, plz go. Your Reality Distortion Field has no power in this place.

System76 prices are also a bit high

[tepples]

The argument remains valid with s-OS X-GNU/Linux-g:

You could buy a computer with "a decent OS" for $800 at system76.com, and people in your household would have to wait their turn to use it. Or you could buy two computers with Windows for $400 and a lot less waiting.

Re:System76 prices are also a bit high

[LiENUS]

Whats wrong with buying two systems with "a decent OS" for $500 at system76.com?

Re:System76 prices are also a bit high

[Zero__Kelvin]

Or you could buy two computers with Linux for $350, and not only have even far far less waiting tha a Windows machine for $400, you'd actually have a reason to believe that your updates are improvements, not marketing wedges.

Re:System76 prices are also a bit high

[tepples]

The fact that System76's current laptop offerings are $700, $1400, and $1950.

Re:System76 prices are also a bit high

[tepples]

Or you could buy two computers with Linux for $350

Where did you find new laptops that come with GNU/Linux for $350, especially since the "netbook" category was discontinued three years ago?

Or perhaps you are referring to purchasing a new Windows laptop and wiping Windows and the trialware that subsidizes Windows off its hard drive. I looked at a lot of low-cost laptops, and I found horror stories such as audio and sleep not working properly. (Source: DebianOn report for ASUS EeeBook X205TA.)

Or by "Linux laptop" are you referring to an Android tablet with a keyboard? Technically it runs the Linux kernel, but its userland is incompatible with applications designed for GNU/Linux, and its window manager assumes that all windows will be maximized. Why should a four-function calculator app fill the screen?

Or are you referring to settling for a used laptop, such as the ones I see in Google product ads when I search for linux laptop?

Re:System76 prices are also a bit high

[unixisc]

There is another option, which is what I did. I bought an $800 laptop from Costco a year ago that had Windows 8.1 on it. It was so unusable that I wiped it and replaced it w/ PC-BSD 10.0, of which I had a CD. Sound worked just fine. Only issue was that the WiFi wasn't recognized, so I had to use a wired connection to the router. Other than that, everything works great.

While that was more expensive, more recently, I got a $250 laptop for my work, that had Windows 8.1 running, and now has 10. It came w/ 4GB/500GB, and would have been just as adequate for PC-BSD, had I chosen to go that route.

Re:System76 prices are also a bit high

[KGIII]

I buy and go through an obscene amount of hardware. I'm talking an average of somewhere around three laptops per year and as many white boxes. I won't say that I *never* have hardware that will simply not work. However, it's pretty rare that I do have hardware that doesn't work right out of the box when I select a popular distro to use. If it doesn't work then chances are that it will with a little bit of research and work. Yes, sometimes I have to compile a driver that was edited by someone in the community. A few times, I've made such edits myself but I've not had to do so in a very long time.

Heck, I've used Windows for years and almost always had a fully working Linux install on a second partition. These days, I just skip the Windows partition. I don't skip it out of any altruistic reasons or the likes. I just wanted something different to break, poke at, and learn. I'd never spent as much time learning the OS as I'd wanted to and realized that I wouldn't unless I used it to the exclusion of all others. So, that's my motivation.

At any rate... It's not 2005 any more. I can't be specific, I don't know the numbers, but it appears that the vast majority of hardware just works without any tinkering. In a few cases, I've ended up using a distro that I'd not planned on using and that's fine, for me at least. Sometimes I find something like wireless hardware that needs to be tweaked or whatnot but that's really rare. Just throw a live OS on a USB and test, if it works then you're good to go. If not, try another one. Someone's almost always figured out a way to make it work.

This is, of course, not true when there's a required chunk of software for the peripheral. You can't always use Linux just like you can't always use OS X, Android, or Windows 10. But, for the vast majority of places and people, it seems to be an acceptable solution for those who want to make that choice. Then again, I'm not a zealot or anything. My only suggestion is that you use what works best for you and helps you to accomplish your goals in a way that makes you as productive and safe as you want to be. Hell, I want to go to BSD-land next and spend a good six months using it exclusively. I might even do so with Plan 9 and Minix.

Re:System76 prices are also a bit high

[LiENUS]

Well considering you said computer, yes if you redefine the terms. I'd bet though your cheaper laptops dont have half the specs of the $700 system76 laptop

possible explanation

[jim.shilliday2271]

Before Microsoft pulled the upgrade, I tried to install it on four perfectly-functioning domain-connected computers. It failed every time, causing old issues (explorer.exe immediately crashing every time it starts) and new ones (start button ignores mouse clicks, Cortana fails, start panel blank). In each case, I was forced to do a clean re-install to get build 10586 to work. Since Microsoft is not explaining its reasons for pulling the upgrade, we are entitled to speculate. Here’s my guess: Restricting the upgrade to Windows Update is a way of delaying it without having to publically acknowledge pervasive problems with it. I suspect that they have temporarily stopped providing it via Windows Update as well and that they are madly trying to fix it before anyone notices the delay. Clue: the upgrade is not available via Windows Update on any of the 25 Windows 10 computers I administer, even though build 10240 was installed on them months ago.

Windows 10 Upgrade

[sebkul]

I have an older PC with Radeon 7900 video card. I have it hooked up as a second monitor to my big screen TV via send HDMI (Display Port to HDMI dongle) and play Steam game from Big Picture. Sound goes to the TV/Receiver. Works perfectly like that in Win 8.1
Upgrade to Windows 10. I have Video but no sound on the TV, tells me that my TV has no audio support. Install different version of the AMD drivers since the newest ones didn't work. At one point some old version worked, it found my TV, it wasn't Generic HDMI device, but LG TV. Sound works... but Fallout 4 crashes. I update the driver from there update tab in Catalyst Control Center... game works. Fault = AMD Drivers

Cortanta doesn't work, when I click on it, it tells me something like "We need to get you setup" then it opens a page to Languages... I see English is picked, I hit the drop down and can't pick anything else... can't figure it out. Look it up... it has to be English (US), for some reason I have it set to English (UK). I live in the US East cost... in windows 8.1 I'm sure it was US English. ... had to find where to add English US language... switch... works. Fault = Microsoft Installed Wrong Langauge.

I have a MacBook Pro 13" ... dual boot system with Windows 8.1. I use it for the most part with an external monitor. Upgrade to Win 10. All seems good, Cortana working off the bat. Plug in my monitor to HDMI port... nothing, no video. Can't switch to it. Windows doesn't detect it, it installed some generic Microsoft Driver. I go and get drivers form Apple and install them, from Intel... no HDMI Video, keeps reverting back to Microsoft driver after restart. Can't switch it manually, nothing I do seems to work. Revert back to 8.1... will try when the big update comes out. Fault = Intel Drivers?

Overall, I am spending way to much time to fight Windows 10 after the upgrade. Everything takes hours to look up, try and fix. Sure not all the problems are from Microsoft. But how hard is for them to write a generic driver to send video and sound to HDMI? Or set a language correctly... and even if they don't, have Cortana tell you that it won't work until you change the language so you shouldn't have to look this up.

November MCT stick didn't boot, had to use

[Lauriy]

https://rufus.akeo.ie/

FOSS alternatives

[unixisc]

I did the third alternative - wiped Windows and installed PC-BSD. Only issue to date - my WiFi ain't recognized, so the laptop is a de facto desktop. Other than that, no issues. Hopefully, PC-BSD will have the WiFi drivers for this in their next version.

Petition - Stop Pushing Windows 10 Uninvited

[bratwiz]

Sign the Change.Org Petition:

Bad Microsoft! Stop Pushing Windows 10 On Consumers Uninvited!

There is a new Change.Org petition to protest Microsoft's unilateral push of Windows 10 onto consumers whether they want it or not. The petition specifically addresses the issue of Bandwidth and Disk Space consumed, the various Privacy Concerns, the fact that Personal Data is sent out to Microsoft and other "unnamed" third-party entities with little way to Opt Out-- yes, it is possible, but not straight-foward, and it isn't entirely clear whether additional monitoring occurs anyway. This issue is not about whether the Windows 10 Operating System is "good" or "bad" particularly, but specifically protests the manner in which it is forced upon consumers with very little regard for their systems which can be broken by the install, or the problems which can occur afterwards such as with device drivers and whatnot, of the changes in the EULA which make it harder to hold Microsoft accountable for these kinds of actions in the future. This petition is about Microsoft unilaterally taking away consumer choice and forcing their choice onto our computers.

BAD MICROSOFT. YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELVES.

You can sign the petition here:

https://www.change.org/p/bill-...