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Microsoft Pulls Windows 10 November Update (1511) ISOs (zdnet.com)
AmiMoJo writes: When Microsoft released Windows 10 version 1511 earlier this month, the company also updated the installer files it delivers via a free, downloadable media creation tool (MCT). That upgrade option worked as advertised for more than a week. This weekend, however, the new files have been pulled and the media creation tool available for download from that page instead installs the July 2015 (build 10240) release. A Microsoft spokesperson confirmed they wish people install the older version and get the 1551 update via Windows Update. The more recent release is still available via an unpublished link (EXE download).
Windows 10 has many problems with the 30" model - LP3065.
Dear M$,
the most frustrating part of installing a fresh windows system is the updates.
Stop making it even more frustrating.
I've seen some commentary that indicated bug problems, so hopefully this is temporary.
The reason it should be temporary is that the upgrade process seems to take AT LEAST as long as the original upgrade install from Windows 7 did, and since the upgrade leaves behind a windows.old directory so you can roll it back I'm not sure how that interacts with an initial upgrade from Windows 7/8/8.1.
fencepost
just a little off
Who is using Windows10?
The people who were "accidentally" forced to "upgrade" to Windows 10, for one. Thanks MS! Supporting my aging parents from 1200 miles away is fun!
I updated all my PCs to Windows 10, starting with the laptop that was running 8.1 anyway. Inevitably there will be software and hardware that just isn't supported on Windows 7, whether intentionally or by accident, and I see no reason to stay behind when the update was free. Windows 10 cleaned up some of the annoyances I had with using 8.1 on a laptop (the Metro screen and Charms bar for instance), and the remainder are hardly an issue.
And regarding the idea that everybody under 30 uses a phone or tablet, sure they use phones, but I don't see many tablets out there, and laptops are practically a requirement for a college education these days, so that whole group of (under 30) people uses a Mac or PC computer as well.
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So essentially they're still using everyone as beta testers, releasing shitty untested software, hiding what updates actually do, and taking away our choice if we want to install this shit or not.
Sorry, Microsoft ... we're not your damned beta testers.
This whole bullshit of "we're going to install Windows 10 on your machine whether you like it or not" has to go. At this point, you really can't trust that any given update from Microsoft isn't the one which is going to start installing Windows 10 and screw up you computer. And, as much as they seem to think otherwise, if it your computer.
Hey, Microsoft ... why don't you shove Windows 10 up your ass, instead of trying to shove it up ours?
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
A hair more use Windows 10 than OSX currently. About 4 times as many as use Linux. Over 5 times as many use Windows 7, and still more people use XP than any version of windows except 7.
Not necessarily ecstatic about the numbers, but the numbers say that Windows 10 is more relevant than OSX if you want to talk about by usage. This is an OS that's only been available for 4 months from the perspective of most people, and contrary to the way it was discussed in the media, the Windows 10 upgrade in Windows 7 actually is being pretty conservative about upgrading (I have a Windows 7 system that does not prompt, and in fact when I go to explicitly check after a Windows 10 update it still says 'please check back later to see if your platform is validated'. I had updated another system against that recommendation, but am keeping that one in that state just to see how long it would take or if MS would ever 'validate' that platform. So getting close to Windows 8.1 share this quickly is not too shabby by MS standards.
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
I uninstalled a few updates and it doesn't nag me anymore but anywhere from 1-3 times a day it attempts to install it. I wouldn't know this except by looking at the update history which shows "Upgrade to Windows 10 Home......................Failed'.
Except oddly enough it hasn't done it since last Thursday even though the failures have been going on since August.
I also set it to allow me to choose which updates (on Win 8.1), which it does except for the upgrade to Win10 but it also doesn't notify me when there are updates.
I really can't be bothered with fixing it either. Installing Linux the first time in the late '90s was easier than fixing Windows update problems.
Usual caveats apply, but the latest stats I can find have Windows 10 on around 8% market share. Its rise seems to have been accompanied by a significant fall in Windows 8 market share, which I'm guessing indicates that a lot of the people who bought a PC that came bundled with Windows 8 have made the jump.
I've made the switch myself on two machines; one updated from Windows 7 and one new-build which I stuck straight onto Windows 10. There is a bit of faff required to turn off the telemetry nastiness, but once that's out of the way, I generally prefer it to Windows 7. There are some good UI improvements, plus there will be directx 12 support down the line. That said, I've noticed occasional odd behaviour on the updated machine (and disappointing results from fastboot); it seems that clean installs really are the way to go and, if I cared enough, I would do that.
That said, when my parents tried to update their aging laptop from Win7 to Win10, it locked the machine in an infinite reboot cycle, requiring me to make a 400 mile round-trip to fix it and (eventually) get it back to Win7. Turns out that Win10 doesn't like some old laptop integrated graphics setups. Would be nice if the compatibility checker tool had actually picked this up. It doesn't actually seem to do much compatibility checking, but rather just to push people towards the update.
And no, people under 30 aren't just using phones and tablets. Cousin's daughter tried to go the "iPad only" route when she started university last year and gave up and bought a PC after a couple of weeks. Tablets and phones are pretty toys and are fine for web-browsing and watching youtube, but you can't yet turn them into a credible substitute for a laptop or desktop.
The requirement to run an entire OS installation routine for a minor upgrade is ridiculous.
They should have handled this more like service packs.
Christian
--- Eat my sig.
I mean, what other explanation could there be?
#DeleteChrome
It's also fine if the July build will actually install on your motherboard without having to hack a bugged microcode update out of it. Which I cannot. Oh well, guess I can put off putting all those black hole routes in place for a while longer.
Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
That's really not that shocking. Most people don't "upgrade" for the sake of upgrading. Usually, at least in Windows land, an OS upgrade is tied to a hardware upgrade, and nobody is upgrading their hardware because a Core2 Duo is still working just fine as the family PC.
Only enthusiasts, gamers, and businesses are buying new PCs. Everyone else's tech spend is going to phones / tablets / etc.
Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
Pull back the ISO and get that in there.
Downloading images I didn't get (Enterprise x64 and 32-bit, Multiple Version 32-bit) using my MSDN account.
I wanted them handy to install directly using the Windows 7 and Windows 8 serials, as well as the semi-fixed start menu (limit changed from 512 to 2048 items).
Perhaps they were only pulled on the public channel?
And I wish I'm gonna win the Lotto, but it ain't gonna happen either.
You are welcome on my lawn.
"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by simple incompetence" [Napoleon] In the case of MSFT and other large bureaucracies, there may be no "simple", only complex incompetence.
With all the complaining about Spyware10 (Win10) we had folks shutting off as much as they could.
Because of the way it auto updates the home users, I wonder how many of the settings people switched off will stay off.
Every time I updated a Macbook it turned "location services" in "security & privacy" preference pane back on.
Is windows going to do this as well? Imagine auto updates resetting all those choices you made... to what M$ wants of course.
"If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
The NEW ISO's make it easier with keys as they take old 7 and 8 keys making clean installs easy to do Also less bandwidth usage
ONLY because it's free. If people had to pay $79.99 for it the adoption rate would be 1/50th of what it is today
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Who is using Windows10?
The people who were "accidentally" forced to "upgrade" to Windows 10, for one. Thanks MS! Supporting my aging parents from 1200 miles away is fun!
You need modded up.
Can you imagine in your wildest dreams that 20 years after Microsoft introduced W95, that they are in the hand-cranked automobile/manual choke phase of computing?
There is just no way this kind of thing should still be going on. I'm on my third total OS upgrade on my iMac. All went seamlessly. My Wife's Linux Mint laptop is being administered by her, and has only required 1 reboot after a total OS update in the couple years since switching from W8.1.
That W10 machine I'm experimenting with? Almost pretty good. But the same old Windows update crapshoot as always. Now that most people have no choice in the update matter, your computer simply is going to be borked. Even the shills have to be getting tired of this.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
and still more people use XP than any version of windows except 7
Actually this isn't true. Windows 10 surpassed XP this month.
All my liberal friends think I'm a conservative, all my conservative friends think I'm a liberal.
Businesses still run Windows. Only two, of our dozens of business customers, have a Windows 10 PC. We strongly encourage all of our customer to put off until June 2016 to consider an upgrade from Windows 7. At that time we'll likely suggest that they stay on Windows 10 unless MS changes the terrible system they have in place for updating. We also ask them to uncheck the Windows update setting for installing Recommended updates. Recommended updates are no longer legitimate updates in the sense of historical WIndows updates that actually were intended to improve the OS you were running and not change it to one that is still unpolished. The new update mechanism is so inferior to the old service pack model that it's pitiful
Are you on Windows 7 Enterprise or something? All my Windows 7 machines have been nagging incessantly since before the launch of Windows 10, and every now and again they "accidentally" re-enable the update that installs the nag app so I have to remove and block it again.
If you are not getting the nag to update and you are not on a corporate network where updates are controlled by the admins, you should be worried. Are you still getting other security updates?
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Did you try using the Windows 7 graphics driver in the Windows 10 install? Windows 10 supports using Windows 7 drivers.
In the case of graphics drivers, you will loose some Direct X 12 features (although not all) by using a Windows 7 driver but if the graphics chipset is that old, it probably wouldn't support the new features anyway.
If the graphics manufacturer has released a Windows 10 driver but it doesn't work for some reason, then you may have to boot Windows 10 in safe mode to force the use of the older driver. However, once that is done things should work. When you force a driver install in safe mode, Windows 10 appears to avoid automatically updating the driver in the future, which is nice.
...
Can you imagine in your wildest dreams that 20 years after Microsoft introduced W95, that they are in the hand-cranked automobile/manual choke phase of computing?
...
Nope.
I never would have guessed that Microsoft could progress even that far.
Not necessarily ecstatic about the numbers, but the numbers say that Windows 10 is more relevant than OSX if you want to talk about by usage.
Why would I want to talk about the usage? I don't buy Toyota Corollas because of their installed user base. I buy a tool that will do what I need to do. It's Jeeps for me and my usage pattern. Not as many sold, so I should buy a Corrolla for off road use because it's more popular than Jeeps?
That's ridiculous of course, but no more so than trumpeting the installed user base of Windows. More to real world situations - how do I run my OSX only programs on that more relevant W10 platform?
And Vice versa. I have exactly 1 program that I need to run Windows for, so I have bootcamp and W7 on my Mac, and a test Dell running W10. So I have that particular tool at my disposal. Now I have more tools than those who have to buy a computer based on popularity.
But if using a so-called more popular OS puts more money in your bank account, that's awesome, and don't ever leave that job.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
That said, when my parents tried to update their aging laptop from Win7 to Win10, it locked the machine in an infinite reboot cycle, requiring me to make a 400 mile round-trip to fix it and (eventually) get it back to Win7.
I hear so many experiences like this from Windows users.
I used to deal with it myself when my sister-without telling me, bought my father a Vista Basic machine to replace the system I had set up in his house, and of course I got to maintain the POS. Much cgasoline used and many hours.
One thing I do know for certain is Windows users seldom take those long trips and wasted hours into account when they brag about how much money they save over those "expensive Macs".
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
You have numerical proof of this?
See: Windows 8 adoption rates.
I got the 1511 ISO from or volume licensing site download. It's much nicer for us as we use PXE to install to clients. The old ISO wouldn't work for installing a clean install from PXE on a computer with Win 8 Pro licenses (in the BIOS). The new one it installs and activates fine, grabbing that Win8 Pro key from the BIOS. So no need to do an in place upgrade first. I'll keep using the 1511 ISO unless the block it somehow.
Actually, Windows 10 proves that they do if you offer it is a point and click option in the taskbar, and promise that it is free and shiny, while leaving out that they are selling out their systems security, at least unless they happen to know what they are doing more than the average person clicking that little button.
Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
Are you a major moron, or a serious moron? You really need proof that adoption rates would be radically different if it were 80 bucks rather than free?
Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
I'm not sure that's a haiku, but it is 4 poetic lines running straight to Godwin!
Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
Microsoft carefully engineered it that way by removing your "rational choices" until there was only one (unless you count switching to a decent OS, an option you seem to have missed.)
You could buy a computer with "a decent OS" for $1000 at apple.com, and people in your household would have to wait their turn to use it. Or you could buy two computers with Windows for $500 and a lot less waiting. Unless you're specifically developing apps for OS X or iOS, which is more rational?
Who is using Windows10?
People whose laptop PCs shipped with Windows 8.1 or 10 and whose manufacturers offered no Windows 7 option with comparable hardware. Or people want security updates to continue past 2019. Or developers testing their applications and device drivers for compatibility with Windows 10.
Did you try using the Windows 7 graphics driver in the Windows 10 install? Windows 10 supports using Windows 7 drivers.
My Windows 7 PC has an nForce chipset. The Windows 10 upgrade tool won't even let me proceed because NVIDIA refuses to make a Windows 10 driver for its GPU. Or are people supposed to seek out a half height GPU card just to qualify for the Windows 10 upgrade?
Some Windows users are stuck on cellular, with a monthly data allowance measured in the single digit GB, because they live outside the service area of the local cable company and the local DSL company, and the city is unwilling to allow any FTTH company access to its right of way. At this point I wonder whether cellular carriers that carry Microsoft Lumia phones are paying Microsoft to do this so that they can charge an overage fee twice: once for 3 GB of Windows 10 per PC in a household and again for 3 GB of updates per PC in a household.
A bit of advice for folks with aging parents who get "Win 10'd"...call the local repair shops in their area! We deal with aging customers all the time, many of us are more than happy to do house calls, and its a HELL of a lot easier for you to simply call the shop and say "Mom has got an issue, please fix it" than it is to spend who knows how many hours on the phone trying to walk somebody who doesn't know computers through a rollback. We can also set up an automated backup routine so if they click the wrong link or make a major mistake they won't lose everything, nothing will break your heart more than having to tell somebody those pics of a long dead relative they didn't have any copies of are gone forever because they didn't have backups.
So consider this a wakeup call, if your folks could have been "Win10'd" they could have gotten a LOT worse, call the local shops, compare rates, and have one set up a backup routine for them. Its a hell of a lot cheaper to just get a USB drive and have the local shop guy help them out than to find out they ended up getting ransomware or some other nasty.
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
No disagreement with your comment; it just reminded me of a Mitch Hedberg joke:
Friend of Mitch: Hey Mitch, look at this picture of me when I was younger!
Mitch: All pictures of you are when you were younger.
All of us are aging, all the time. If you are alive, you are aging.
Go here:
http://ultimateoutsider.com/downloads/ and download the GWX Control Panel. That will remove it as well as the downloaded install files. Not my code, but it worked for me.
Don't worry, your old pal Hairy has got the fix for that bullshit...Bam! Kills the Win 10 spyware dead without making you constantly try to find the "gotcha!" in Windows Update. And for those that may have gotten infected with the backported to Windows 7/8 "telemetry" aka "all ur data" patches? Bam! There is a handy .Bat file in the middle of the page, just run it and it uninstalls the patches and kills any phone home shite, its even updated every month in case MSFT adds more nasties...oh and you're welcome ;-)
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
I think it must be a management decision. Get the adoption rate up by heavily "promoting" the update, not realizing or caring that it will screw up a lot of users who don't fully understand the consequences, or for whom the upgrade will simply fail.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Where did I say everybody under the age of 30 goes to college? When I said 'that whole group' I was referring to people who do go to college (who are 99% under 30 after all). You're hearing what you want to hear. GP made it sound as if nobody under 30 uses a computer. I was just pointing out that is not a valid assumption.
RETURN without GOSUB in line 1050
OSX is a decent OS. Linux is a decent OS. Windows is a decent OS. People manage to use all of the above productively. Make you own choice but don't act as if others aren't allowed to make theirs.
RETURN without GOSUB in line 1050
The GWX (get windows 10) Control Panel is a great tool. It lets you kill everything associated with the W10 upgrade. You can pick it up at several places including NeoWin.net.
http://www.neowin.net/news/gwx...
I noticed that Windows 7 Ultimate (basically Windows 7 Enterprise edition for consumers) is selling for $300 over at eBay now. Should tell you something.
A brain is a terrible thing to waste... Mind? That's debatable.
No, I presumed the system being a relatively unloved 5 year old platform causes MS to recommend waiting for it to be validated. I've had systems that was eager to update within a week of the announce, but my systems built out of older motherboards are not willing to move forward unless I went out of my way to update them.
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
So you're saying buying a POS that cost 1/10th of even a midrange Windows machine causes problems? No way!
.
So you are saying that cost, the raison de etre' of the Windows crowd - is not a metric? I saw a flame war erupt over 5 cents difference in the cost of memory once, and Winders fans are always blathering on about those expensive Mac, to the point that they compare top end macs with the bottom end PC's. My eep netbook is obviously superior to a loaded Mac Pro, right?
You cannot have it both ways. If those bottom end PC's are out there, you can't just go blaming the users for buying them after being conditioned to think they are the best thing since multiple orgasm.
You demand cheap, you get cheap.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
That W10 machine I'm experimenting with? Almost pretty good. But the same old Windows update crapshoot as always. Now that most people have no choice in the update matter, your computer simply is going to be borked. Even the shills have to be getting tired of this.
Which o/c is bollocks. Had every machine, which you are implying, got borked there would be a bit more of an uproar than the angry nerds complaining MS are trying to give updated software for free.
You livin' in the future? Or just don't understand "is going to be borked", which is a prediction based on past experience. I've spent a lot of time after patch tuesdays, or whne IT rolled out the updates, fixing bitched up Windows machines.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
Well the post was talking about 5% of people doing this or that, so as a direct response to the comment, usage seems apt.
More popular platform is pretty important even if it's not the favorite. For example I massively prefer a Linux desktop distribution when I'm talking about apples to apples comparison against Windows. However I must use Windows because I need and want software the developers only target Windows. Wine gets far, but ultimately it's an uphill battle. So I have my preferred platform in places, but tolerate Windows because it's the practical choice, not through their technical excellence, but through boring old momentum.
Similarly, I worry about the cost of my preferred hardware platform, desktop systems. If 90% of folks go to a phone, it would be nice if I didn't have a reason to care about what they do, except companies providing these components need to bump margin to offset the reduction of the target market.
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
I have used Linux as my primary computer since before RH 5.2 and Solarius in college before that. I just set up a Windows 10 drive on my home computer, and find it to be a decent OS. I use Windows 7 at work and think that 10 is an improvement.
I don't know, but I do know that there are a hundred and ten million users out there somewhere, and that extra ten was a major milestone significant enough to advertise.
If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
I upgraded from Windows 8.1 to 10 and don't regret it. Had I had 7, I'd have stayed there. But the 8.1 UI was really unusable. If there is a way to disable Telemetry while in 10, I'd do it, but I'm not gonna downgrade to 8.1. I could consider downgrading to 7 if that option were available
I think it must be a management decision. Get the adoption rate up by heavily "promoting" the update, not realizing or caring that it will screw up a lot of users who don't fully understand the consequences, or for whom the upgrade will simply fail.
To your point, cost is a big selling point for most Windows users, and with the larger installed user base, I'm surprised that W10 is only around the OSX level. Not that I care, it's like smoking famous cigarettes to me.
As well, I've already seen a lot of soundcard issues, where the users machines simply won't produce sound, and won't recognize any devices - well it sort of does - it sees the sound card, but refuses to utilize it in the programs.
The interesting part is when you try to help the users, a few of them get weirdly belligerant about it, claiming Windows says everything is good, so it must be good. I had one guy so pissed off about the fix, which is Windows thinking some outdated drivers are good, but actually aren't, that he refused to do the fix because I was a stupid bastard. Even lied about going to the soundcard support site to update the driver. Some people would rather be "right" than have their machine work.
A few weeks later, he very sheepishly sent email that he finally went to the site, did as told, and it magickly worked.
Another issue is whne a machine refuses to boot. Safe booting in Windows ten is an unholy mess if you've taken the online upgrade path. I had a machine get bitched up by a power surge/outagfe when a remote site lost it's neutral line. It survived, but won't boot to the Desktop. Standard Safeboot methods don't work, so I go online.
Step 1 of the safe boot process - Insert the Windows 10 disk........ oops!
I did have another machine I could make a USB recovery drive with, but we'll see how that works. Probably as good as my W10 disk.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
One reason to stay behind could be owning a device that has drivers for Windows 8.1 but no driver, or a crappy one, for Windows 10. While Microsoft have an interest in the users of those devices upgrading to Windows 10, device manufacturers and laptop vendors have no interest in spending resources to support people who have already bought their products. As a result, a surprising amount of recent hardware doesn't work or is buggy under Windows 10.
I had this problem yesterday.
You need to remove the driver from Windows 7 and use Windows' basic driver.
Then install win 10, and find an old version of the driver, for windows 8. It will work on windows 10.
Now, we can't blame microsoft on this one: In my case it's a Geforce 6150, a motherboard i bought NINE YEARS ago. It's not Microsoft not supporting it, it's nVidia.
Use ShutUp10 to disable telemetry and other shit.
I noticed that Windows 7 Ultimate (basically Windows 7 Enterprise edition for consumers) is selling for $300 over at eBay now. Should tell you something.
Yeah, it tells me lots of people can't figure out how to download a torrent...
Some of us updated on purpose. We also go out of our way to block telemetry.
That decision was easy to make since supporting Windows 7 by preventing sneaky telemetry back doors now requires the same effort as doing so with Windows 10.
One thing I do know for certain is Windows users seldom take those long trips and wasted hours into account when they brag about how much money they save over those "expensive Macs".
The funny thing is seeing how long the typical line at the Genius bar is. The real problem here is that Mac users simply outsource their problems while you still support your parents.
Interestingly enough my girlfriend (who is currently on the other side of the world) posted something on Facebook that surprised me. She had a problem with Windows 10 and solved it by talking to the support chat staff on the Microsoft website. Indian and outsourced? Maybe. But she got the result without bugging me.
My HP Stream 13 would not even pull down the update via Windows update due to it not having enough hard drive space (HD is only 30 gig). After much work, I finally got the update to install last Friday using the media creation tool. If I didn't have the tool available, I doubt I could have gotten the thing to even try and update in the first place.
Windows 10 can use Windows 7 and Windows 8 drivers for pretty much any hardware device. The only challenge comes when there is a Windows 10 driver available that says it supports a particular hardware device but it really doesn't or doesn't work properly.
In that case, you will have manually tell Windows 10 to install the older Windows 7 or 8 driver instead (depending on the device you may have to use Safe mode to do this.)
This works quite well, in fact I have an older system in which the Windows 10 audio driver will cause it to bluescreen randomly while playing audio but is perfectly stable with a Windows 7 driver. I installed the old Windows 7 driver via Device Manager and now the system is perfectly stable.
Counterargument: Macbooks aren't always $1,500. They sell units now with 128gb of storage, which fits very little - a handful of phone backups or iPhoto storage will eat that alive. 256 and 512 are obviously preferable, but one must know how much storage they will need at time of purchase, since it's not possible to upgrade later..and units with that amount of internal storage are a lot more expensive - the 1TB upgrade for a MacBook Pro is an $800 add-on. With the USB port count as low as it can go, external storage isn't much fun. You can buy a Synology or similar NAS, but that is necessitated by the storage situation on the machine. "Put it all in iCloud" is the go-to battle cry, but that cost would need to get factored in, and using iCloud at the exclusion of any other storage method means that you're at Apple's mercy to keep your data safe.
Yes, a $1,500 Macbook that holds up for five years is a better deal than a $500 Dell unit every two years...but over ten years, two $1,500 Macbooks + storage solution + de facto mandatory USB adapters + Applecare over ten years is, depending on exactly which combination of things you get, still notably more expensive than five new $500 Dell units over the same period.
id rather buy a MacBook every 5 years for $1500 than buy a Windooz machine for $500 every two years.
Every Mac I've ever owned has lasted atleAst 6 years.
Pretty much this. Having owned and used both PC's and Macs since just about forever ago, My Macs have always lasted longer. It's difficult to argue with upfront prices, because most people can't see beyond their nose. But I not only prefer Macs, but they are less expensive in the long run.
I guy I used to sign off on his purches for was really big on how inexpensive PC's were compared to Macs. He was in yapping one day about why we didn't save money by going all Windows PC's. I showed him by brining out the receipts. He was spending alomst twice as much for roughly the same capability.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
I noticed that Windows 7 Ultimate (basically Windows 7 Enterprise edition for consumers) is selling for $300 over at eBay now. Should tell you something.
That tells you nothing, Windows 7 Ultimate has always been over $300
One thing I do know for certain is Windows users seldom take those long trips and wasted hours into account when they brag about how much money they save over those "expensive Macs".
This is one of the worst arguments I've ever heard against using Windows. This has nothing to do with the OS, and everything to do with your willingness to support someone's computer remotely. Don't want to drive? Remote in or ship the damn thing, or otherwise tell them to figure it out themselves. Don't knock a product just because you choose to be a martyr.
Bullshit - if you can't understand the simple argument I'm making, is that with an Apple, or even my wife's Linux happy, these things don't happen. I haven't had one update hosing on either OS.
I don't have to travel to fix a computer that shouldn't have been fucked up by an update in the first place. Of course it's a stupid argument for you Coward - You can't see beyond your nose.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
Major Moron I believe,
At least that is who he goes by as his gamertag on xbox live.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
and I see no reason to stay behind when the update was free. Windows 10
I can see at least a few reasons for staying with Windows 7 vs. going to Windows 10. Can't you?
"The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
So it says nothing that Windows 10 is free, and people are paying $300 for the old version? And as I recall my copy of Windows 7 Ultimate was something like $239 when new.
A brain is a terrible thing to waste... Mind? That's debatable.
Well, Windows 10 isn't free for all, the upgrade is free if you have Windows 7 or 8. but if you have neither then you can't upgrade. From what I remember, the Win7 ultimate upgrade was about the price you quoted, but the full version was over $300. Actually a quick search shows a 2009 article quoting the full version of windows 7 ultimate at about $319.00. http://www.computerworld.com/a... Now I am not saying Windows 7 isn't still in demand now that Windows 10 is out. The fact that Windows 7 machines are still being sold gives reason to why there was no reduction in the license cost after 6 years.
Others are certainly allowed to make their own choice. They can choose from many decent Operating Systems, or they can choose to use Windows. I never said they couldn't choose to use an inferior product and give access to their entire computer (and beyond!) to a third party who has an interest in monetizing their experience that far outweighs their interest in serving them in the way they would prefer or making them secure. They absolutely have the right to deal with a company that has shown time and again to be unscrupulous. I'm not even sure where you got the idea that I was saying they couldn't?. Been hitting the hootch a bit have you?
Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
Did it. Thanks!
If we can blame Microsoft for anything, it's for not automating the process of dropping back to the basic driver, upgrading, and installing the latest working driver. I thought things like that were why I turned on CEIP or whatever Microsoft is calling Windows telemetry nowadays: so that Microsoft could see exactly why my Windows 7 product key is not showing up on the GWX server.
I bought the Acer PC in question in 2011, not knowing then that its chipset was essentially NOS. At the time, it was one of the few slim desktop PCs that came with integrated graphics better than Intel GMA (Graphics My Ass).
It's the only rational decision for someone who wishes to stay with Microsoft, at least. If one is using Windows 7 or Windows 8/8.1, then one may as well move to Windows 10 for free and keep the free support and updates coming. The worst parts of Win 10 are being pushed to the older OSes anyway and will likely be required to take more updates.
I enjoy Linux, but the drivers suck -- same for even OSX. Same exact hardware and Windows kills at FPS on games.
I'm slowly making all my Windows machines dual-boot to Linux in the hope that many if not all of them can go to Linux exclusively, but seriously... until AMD and nVidia get their collective butts together to make competent, competitive OpenGL drivers, DirectX is going to mop the floor w/ Linux/OSX on games and future VR tech. I'm anxiously awaiting Wayland or Mir just to replace the ancient X Windows system. I'm starting to think that GNU/Linux might need a complete architectural re-write just to get decent graphics performance. Even Steam can't get great performance out of their linux steamboxes yet -- and their core business is selling and distributing games! I was really hoping Valve/Steam would bring some great tech to Linux to boost things... but alas, no dice yet.
The argument remains valid with s-OS X-GNU/Linux-g:
You could buy a computer with "a decent OS" for $800 at system76.com, and people in your household would have to wait their turn to use it. Or you could buy two computers with Windows for $400 and a lot less waiting.
There are wasted hours on occasion yes, but the trick is to not fix your relative's (often shitty) computers. I make it a point not to, and my parents are pretty good with their own machines these days anyway.
My poor aunt though, she can never remember her password. She's always asking for help recovering it. So I finally told her, "I don't have the magic solution to that, but I can tell you what I did to figure it out the last time it happened." There's a tool you can use for Windows XP that'll reset passwords, but I don't think it works on newer systems so I'd start at square one. If I'm to start from Google, why can't she?
Before Microsoft pulled the upgrade, I tried to install it on four perfectly-functioning domain-connected computers. It failed every time, causing old issues (explorer.exe immediately crashing every time it starts) and new ones (start button ignores mouse clicks, Cortana fails, start panel blank). In each case, I was forced to do a clean re-install to get build 10586 to work. Since Microsoft is not explaining its reasons for pulling the upgrade, we are entitled to speculate. Here’s my guess: Restricting the upgrade to Windows Update is a way of delaying it without having to publically acknowledge pervasive problems with it. I suspect that they have temporarily stopped providing it via Windows Update as well and that they are madly trying to fix it before anyone notices the delay. Clue: the upgrade is not available via Windows Update on any of the 25 Windows 10 computers I administer, even though build 10240 was installed on them months ago.
But it's not the manufacturer or the quality. It's simply being forced to buy better. It's hard to buy junk from Apple, because they don't sell much of it. You can do the same by spending $1500 on a Windows PC.
Come to think of it, my biggest source of trouble with the Windows 10 update have been AMD drivers: I can report a laptop which can't adjust the brightness level, another one that pauses for 60s on startup and resume, and another one which isn't able to play videos without stuttering.
OK, so Windows 10 is free for about 65% or more of the existing user base. That is a lot of people.
http://gs.statcounter.com/#os-...
I think that the relatively low, now almost flat adoption rate for Windows 10 is that people don't like the 2D interface. Plus, it is not as stable as Windows 7 and it has crap stuck on the start menu that you need to fiddle with to get rid of. It also has more "telemetry" built in. None of the so-called improvements are particularly useful (Cortana is a great example). It seems dumbed down so that it will work on mobile devices. I think that is why there is a market for the older version that has more features (Windows 7 Ultimate), which doesn't have all the downsides.
A brain is a terrible thing to waste... Mind? That's debatable.
I bought a second hand Toshiba laptop a few months back. It had been wiped with a clean image of Windows 7.
7 -> 10 upgrade went fine initially but then a subsequent update gave random blue screens.
An out of date Atheros wifi driver was the cause. I was able to find a newer release from Toshiba's site and yes, I needed to boot Windows in safe-mode to override the driver.
So my advice is to hunt down the newest drivers for one's hardware before upgrading.
Same, still running version 10.0.10240
Maybe they've stopped the update altogether?
Well... okay... I was talking just about the price of of Windows 7 Ultimate, not the differences of Windows 7 & 10. There really isn't a right answer to the 7 vs 10, since opinion on any operating system is mostly subjective.
Sure, those Macbooks are so much affordable!
Gamers. If you want a laptop like a MSI GT72, you get Windows 10 pre-installed. You can run Windows 7 on such laptops, but the drivers for the SteelSeries keyboard backlight and the USB ports are only available for Windows 10. The driver CD and the downloads just will not work for Windows 7.
Microsoft has put some code in the DirectX driver such that certain 3D rendering features are just not available unless Windows 10 is in use.
Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
LULWut? You DO know that Macs have more vulnerabilities than Windows right? And that your parents would have to live in someplace like NYC or LA for the cost of a decent MB to be cheaper than a half dozen or more service calls, yes? Hell the most expensive shops that I know of only charge $40 an hour for service calls and unless they are incompetent most jobs can be handled in under an hour...your parents would have to be calling a couple times a week for 6 months just for you to break even! Finally I have yet to meet this "mythical person" that only uses a browser, if that was your parents? Get them a tablet or put them on Ubuntu, but more likely they have multiple Windows programs they use, hell that is what they got the PC to run in the first place!
So sorry Macs are NOT the answer to elderly parents, it will cost more, create more problems than it solves, the only one that will benefit from that move is Apple shareholders.
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
I googled. Anyway, here you go - http://www.oo-software.com/en/...
I overlooked your question about the source code. Never mind. I'd have thought that all the FOSSies are already in Linux or one of the BSDs by now
My comment was facetious - sorry that it wasn't obvious
My apologies then, been dealing with some serious nutjobs on Disqus, don't know which is worse, the Win 10 worshippers or the Apple iHeads, both are batshit.
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
Microsoft DOES have a fully working basic driver, but it requires WDDL 2.0 which your chipset doesn't support.
Fun fact: after replacing my 2009 laptop's motherboard with GeForce 8400M that died from overheating, for another model with Intel GMA, not only does it work fine, it also works with windows 10 using the "INF Update" (a small installer that tells the system "This PCI ID will work with your basic driver"). And, alas, the laptop with GMA graphics has a much smoother desktop than the geforce 6150 desktop.
Go figure.
I was under the impression that entire categories of applications that were unavailable for Chrome OS. One of them is the compiler needed for a high school student's programming class, which runs on Windows, OS X, and GNU/Linux, but not Chrome OS. SSH ceases to be enough once the student gets to the graphics chapter.
She's never upgraded the kernel in those two years? You might want to double check on your wife's computer. She's doing something wrong if she wants to have those updates take effect. For the record, the laptop next to this one has Linux Mint Cinnamon on it - this one has Lubuntu and a couple other distros on it. However, if she's had it for a couple of years and has only done the reboot once then she's missing something, probably. If you want the new kernel then a reboot is required. There are security updates included in kernel releases. I'd say those qualify as required reboots, no?
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
The thing about blocking telemetry is that it's a two edged sword. Now, when features you like are disabled you'll have nobody to blame but you and the other "power users" who decided to block their usage data gathering. A recent thread on this site was a good indicator of the potential results of this. It means you're letting the not-so-savvy folks decide the metrics given to the vendor and thus will get a product designed around their usage patterns.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
The irony is that I was the one who pointed that out in the other thread.
I guess I'm a slow learner :-)
You're gonna be right pissed when Microsoft takes away the control panel and regedit!
Err... I'm assuming that those are still a thing. I have, technically, officially touched a Windows 10 laptop now. As in used Windows 10 for about five minutes or so. It seemed nice enough. I'm not really a Windows user as of late so I don't actually know much about Windows 10 except that I need to check when people make extreme claims to see if they're actually telling the truth.
I didn't stop using Windows out of any ethical reasons or anything. I was just not learning anything new. I'd always kept Linux installed but I rarely used it. I realized that I'd not use it if I kept Windows installed. So, I simply got rid of Windows. My MSDN subscription has even expired. I think I'd had Linux installed on a partition pretty much constantly since the late 1990s but I just didn't use it often. So, I made the switch.
It'd be nice if one could turn off all the telemetry and data collection that Microsoft does, easily and perhaps with optional controls. Honestly? I'd probably leave it enabled on my Windows installs if I had some Windows installs to enable it on. I do, now, have a Windows phone and I'm pretty sure it's enabled on that. Some data, of course, has to be sent out if you want things like a robust search (searching the web, your online "cloud" documents, etc) or that digital assistant thing to work with any advanced features. From what I've read, from less biased sources, you can disable the live tiles (I think they're called) if they bother you and games can be had for free, or free with ads with ads, or even by paying.
Meh... It sounds like a fine OS. But, yeah, turning off the telemetry means that your voice is not heard. It'd appear you know this and I'll avoid preaching to the choir. It's going to cause an outrage if something like Group Policy Editor, Regedit, and the control panel disappear because the people who typically use those are advanced users and more likely to block telemetry data collection. I will, of course, chuckle.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
That'd explain it. Who the hell leaves stuff rated at 5 as disabled? There's security updates in them there codes! A quick looks shows that they're enabled here which means I must have seen fit to change them. I deleted my VM image not long ago but I imagine it was enabled there as well.
I read the description and it does "look scary!" So, maybe that's why people leave it disabled? It seems rather silly and, well, wrong.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
Honestly I'm not against telemetry. I am however against dishonesty.
The analysis that has been done shows that all sorts of things are sent to Microsoft even when expressly prevented. I.e. From Australia there was a conclusion that not only was Cortana no available in the country anyway but when disabled in Windows, expressly told to not gather data, offer suggestions, or "learn" about you, non the less everytime something was typed into the LOCAL search box encrypted packets were whisked away to the Cortana servers.
On the flip side my Android phone doesn't send information if I don't enable it. Some features don't work as well but they are very up front and clear about it. Google also provide a website that e.g. allows me to see exactly the location data that is being sent and collected, and as scary as that seems I leave it on because I happily trade some of that data in exchange for accurate traffic maps during navigation (just an example).
I think if Microsoft were more honest, open, and up-front about the telemetry then we wouldn't be discussing it nearly as much.
At least they are being upfront about their attack on the Control Panel. The only reason it is still accessible (albeit via a search or a discrete right click) is that their new Settings menu isn't complete yet.
I'm inclined to agree entirely. If I used Windows then I'd probably allow them to collect the telemetry data. What'd be disappointing is that turning off the features doesn't fully disable their connections to the Windows servers. I think such should be optional. I can't say that it should be a mandatory option because I'm not a fan of controlling others and it's their OS to ruin as they see fit. I do think that it should be optional and in easily understood terms rather than couched in legal terms in a EULA.
I suspect that, technically, Microsoft is being honest, in a strict sense of the word. They probably make some disclosures concerning data collection, in a vague way, in the EULA and one consents prior to installing the OS. If they were doing so without consent (even if it's couched in legal terms and unlikely to be read) then they're probably committing a crime somewhere on the planet. I'd assume their legal team is a bit smarter than that - but I could be mistaken.
I don't want to defend Microsoft but I feel compelled to do so by stating this: So far, and considering the number of attacks they must face, Microsoft has been pretty good stewards of the data they collect. I think it is reasonable to believe that a breech would have been made public (by the persons who did so) and they've collected this, and similar, data for many years now without any known intrusions. I'd assume that it is also not tied to a specific user though it could probably be tied to a user with some other databases and some effort. Thus, I'd probably not try to block it if it were my computer.
Of course, like you, I'd much rather they be open and honest about it. I'd much prefer a switch that disabled it, including updates, that worked as advertised. I'd have a greater appreciation for the ability to refine, view, and optionally edit the data that was transmitted but I may be asking a bit much and may not be able to reasonably expect such.
As mentioned before, I'm not using Linux because of any altruistic reasons. I've had Linux installed on one partition or another since the 1990s. I'm using it because I was no longer learning anything new with Windows and I felt that I was disappointing myself and I realized that I'd not ever take the time to learn more about it if I didn't use it to the exclusion of everything else. I like to poke, break, and learn - without that, I feel lazy and as if I'm not accomplishing anything important. So, if anything, consider that when considering my opinions - if it matters/helps.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
Put an ISO of Linux Mint on a flash drive, and this Thanksgiving, install it on Mom's machine. Set her up with her favourite wallpaper and a decent Solitaire, and TeamView or equivalent (tell her NOT to run it unless you call).
End of problem.
And all it took was giving it away, expensive hype and advertising, and constant nagging and shoving it down people's throats.
There are Linux distros that are a lot easier to install. (Lots that aren't, of course.) Mint, Zorin, Elementary. Half an hour, and you're back to work.
Yep. Win10 sucks less than Win8.x. Yet, Win7 sucks less than Win10. WinXP sucks less than Win7 - IF it were kept up to date beyond MS EOL choices. Please note that MS is looking hard at a Linux system themselves! Does anyone see a pattern here?! It's past time for MS to start PAYING for premium engineers, and stop the "we know better than all users so we will control the horizontal; we control the vertical" mentality. And, changing interfaces and structures every year or 2 is just plain way too drastic for humanity to tolerate! (We - mankind) might be able to stablize if we did not have to spend so much energy learning new ways to do the same things so often -- all just to pad a few pockets with dollars! Perhaps offer a different 'skin' or interface as an option, along with security and functionality updates. And, above ALL, release NO system before it's time (i.e. well tested and debugged) - irregardless of what the stockholders want! Most stockholders are totally unqualified for these decisions!
Self-importance and self-indulgence is the root of ALL evil.
I don't want to defend Microsoft but I feel compelled to do so by stating this: So far, and considering the number of attacks they must face, Microsoft has been pretty good stewards of the data they collect.
I concur. I fully trust Microsoft to store my data. I just don't trust them to collect it. Their methods leave a lot to be desired, and I say that as someone who defended the design of the Windows 10 installer which only gave options to adjust the data collection by carefully reading the fine print in the corner of the screen and realising there was a button there.
Better than nothing in my books, which is what you get from a lot of other people. But it still irks me that those options seem to pay lip service to the customer. It's not really that I don't want my information gathered, it's that I'm not sure what the measurable benefit to me is. I suppose Windows 10 is free, but I can't help thinking this is the OS used in some of the most critical applications controlling our world, and it has a manufacturer provided leak point for data.
https://rufus.akeo.ie/
I'd have thought that all the FOSSies are already in Linux
That's fine so long as you can find a PC that is compatible with GNU/Linux and meets your other requirements. This should be easy for desktops, but for laptops, I can think of four routes, all with problems:
Buy a laptop that ships with GNU/Linux System76's offerings are relatively expensive compared to a low-end Windows PC, and at the moment, none are smaller than the 14" Lemur. It used to be easy to find small, affordable, GNU/Linux-compatible laptops before the category was discontinued at the end of 2012. Buy a laptop that ships with Android Android uses the same kernel as GNU/Linux. But Android uses a drastically different userland that has the "full screen calculator" problem, and is there a good alternative to the functionality of the build-essential package of Debian? Buy a laptop that ships with Windows, wipe Windows, and install GNU/Linux These are warranted for compatibility with Windows, not GNU/Linux. I've found several where basic things fail on Linux, such as X205TA and T100TA. Buy a used laptop These aren't even warranted at all.A long time ago, I was an MS MVP (shell/explorer, IE/OE, and security - all three at the same time at one point) and I still have some contacts in the company and in the program. I am too lazy to Google but I imagine that one can find corroborating information online but I'm not entirely sure that it is 'for the public.'
I believe the ultimate goal is a more tailored OS with security and other updates being tailored specifically for your usage. If you have, for example, a combination of hardware that is less than ideal or a combination of hardware and software that causes system halts (or similar things, you get the idea) then you'll get patches specifically tailored to your use case and to your needs entirely. This will be done in a truly autonomous fashion, is the goal, and will result in a (theoretically) better experience and better performance and better security.
To do this, they need to start with collecting huge amounts of data - I mean huge. In the late 1990s, the data sets I was working with approached a full terabyte in size. I modeled human behavior and it is damned close to modeling chaos. I can't even begin to fathom the resources needed to do something like this. We were clustering Sun blade servers with disk arrays in a full blown data center (we called it a server room but it had connectivity as well in its own "closet"). We were at the cusp of a fairly immature science and a very immature process (we did traffic modeling on modern hardware, eventually including pedestrian traffic) and, again, I say that to quantify this: I have no idea how they're going to manage this much data or be able to pull meaningful data from it.
However, I'm damned impressed at the goal and effort. I'd have moved closer to the Computer as a Service over IP model (if that's not an official term then it is now) and worked in that direction. That they're going this way is actually saying more for privacy than the opposite. It's saying more for device ownership than it would be otherwise. It's sort of counter to the cloud model and would probably be simpler and cheaper to avoid. But they're going to need a lot of data to get there. It looks like they're aiming for a more tailored OS than ever before and, instead of taking the cheap shots and putting it on their hardware and maintaining control, they're actually trying to do this on hardware that you still own and have nominal, at least, control over it.
I find it fascinating and don't see this reaching fruition for quite some time but it does tie in nicely with the idea that Windows 10 is their last OS release. I am no longer covered by an NDA and can repeat what I was told as I was not told that any part of it was particularly secret. I think that I've read a few published articles that alluded to it or expanded on the details.
So, what do you get? Nothing, perhaps. A really nice, stable, and more secure operating system - if all goes well. Do you want it to go well? Enable telemetry and data collection. They've done exceptionally well at maintaining that data in a secure fashion. Look at how huge a target they are and think about the many attacks they must face on a constant basis - yet no known breeches have occurred. I'm operating under the assumption that a breech would result in publicity for a whole host of reasons. I think that's a a reasonable conclusion. If you don't give a shit then, by all means, disable it.
I think we're pretty much in agreement. I did want to take the time to share the little that I've been made aware of. I'm no longer using any Microsoft products on my general compute devices (I do have a Windows phone but I don't actually do any real computing on it - I've never even sent a text message with it) and I'm not inclined to change that, currently. My motivations are really quite different than the typical motivations that we read about. I don't use Linux for altruistic reasons and given the totality of what I donate and have donated over the years, I'm not inclined to say that it's really free as in beer. at least n
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
I did the third alternative - wiped Windows and installed PC-BSD. Only issue to date - my WiFi ain't recognized, so the laptop is a de facto desktop. Other than that, no issues. Hopefully, PC-BSD will have the WiFi drivers for this in their next version.
I think we're pretty much in agreement. I did want to take the time to share the little that I've been made aware of.
Thanks for sharing your views. It really is quite fascinating to read people's backgrounds rather than just the occasional rant here on /.
Someday, probably, I'll return to Windows. I hope that the control panel is still there, that group police editor is still functioning
Some things are stable. Microsoft will always provide a way for enterprise management of machines, and Microsoft will always provide a one stop shop for system configuration. They may not be called group policy editor, or control panel but both of those will exist in some form for any foreseeable future.
If you're curious, there's an 1800 pound gingerbread house in the lobby
Oh wow. So the town is famous for something other than the saying "Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo" :-)
Sign the Change.Org Petition:
Bad Microsoft! Stop Pushing Windows 10 On Consumers Uninvited!
There is a new Change.Org petition to protest Microsoft's unilateral push of Windows 10 onto consumers whether they want it or not. The petition specifically addresses the issue of Bandwidth and Disk Space consumed, the various Privacy Concerns, the fact that Personal Data is sent out to Microsoft and other "unnamed" third-party entities with little way to Opt Out-- yes, it is possible, but not straight-foward, and it isn't entirely clear whether additional monitoring occurs anyway. This issue is not about whether the Windows 10 Operating System is "good" or "bad" particularly, but specifically protests the manner in which it is forced upon consumers with very little regard for their systems which can be broken by the install, or the problems which can occur afterwards such as with device drivers and whatnot, of the changes in the EULA which make it harder to hold Microsoft accountable for these kinds of actions in the future. This petition is about Microsoft unilaterally taking away consumer choice and forcing their choice onto our computers.
BAD MICROSOFT. YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELVES.
You can sign the petition here:
https://www.change.org/p/bill-...