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Los Angeles Flirts With Pre-Crime (washingtonpost.com)
An anonymous reader writes: The city of Los Angeles is considering a new plan to fight prostitution: sending letters to men who solicit prostitutes in the hopes that the letters are seen by family members. Why not just arrest them while they're doing it? Because these letters aren't being sent to the houses of men who were convicted, or even arrested. Instead, automated license plate readers would scan the cars driving down streets known to have a prostitution problem, and the letters would be sent to the address associated with those vehicles. An article about the plan says, "There isn't 'potential' for abuse here, this is a legislated abuse of technology that is already controversial when it's used by police for the purpose of seeking stolen vehicles, tracking down fugitives and solving specific crimes."
They're used to being sued, and losing. I guess they're under budget this year, and need to spend a few more million before New Years day on legal fees.
It reminds me of when I visited a friend in hospital, then as I walked back to where I had parked past an abandoned strip club a woman driving past yelled angrily at me "I hope you had a good time". False positives like that are bound to happen.
Seriously, if a girl wants to sell her body, why shouldn't she?
Instead, automated license plate readers would scan the cars driving down streets known to have a prostitution problem, and the letters would be sent to the address associated with those vehicles.
Automated iris recognition scanning software should then be used to identify all milk drinkers as children, as a very high percentage of pedophiles drank milk as children.
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.
Ernest Hemingway
Find scanner id politicians license plates put fake plates on car drive by scanner. Law repealed. Problem solved.
Are the police insane? So if someone drives down the wrong street because they don't know that you're not supposed to drive down that street, the police are going to ruin their marriage? For that matter, if someone happens to drive to a bar in that neighborhood, the police are going to harass them?
*Headdesk*
Also, cue the lawsuit in 3... 2... 1...
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It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
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This is a little beyond "flirting" with pre-crime. This is more like taking pre-crime to Bed, Bath and Beyond to pick out curtains for the apartment you and pre-crime are about to move into.
Just steal a car before you start scoping out the whores. It works in GTA.
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Vote for Bernie in 2016!
Perhaps someone needs to take pics of cops and post them publicly and to their managers as well.
5... 4... 3... 2... 1...
Shoes for Industry. Shoes for the Dead.
I would take each letter and send it on to each of the people behind this idea. That way they get to experience the joy of explaining why the letter is being sent to them and maybe realize just why such a letter might be a bad idea.
You can make the argument that what two consenting adults do in private is THEIR business, and I'd be willing to entertain such a view if this was actually done in private. But it generally isn't. Oh sure, the actual act usually is, but the solicitation is decidedly public, at least on the few occasions when I've actually noticed such activity. So, come up with a way to keep it out of sight, and I'm prepared to leave each to their own.
However, the problem with this "activity" is that it encourages things like human trafficking, which is far from a victimless crime. I don't think a sufficiently strict regulatory structure can be built to prevent such abuse that doesn't cost a lot more than the current enforcement efforts based on current law. So I don't think your idea would really work out as well as you imagine. Girls will be trafficked and abused like they are now.
Remember, we've had quasi legal prostitution (still do in some places) in the past where the police colluded with brothel operators and it didn't work out all that great for the average worker, but made boatloads of cash for the owners. Consider Chicago in the 1920's, I don't think we want to do that again.
"File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
What's that? Prostitutes are on my way home from work? Thanks for letting me know!
I used to take the Karate PE classes in college, nice workout and something practical. During the summer breaks our instructor would let his college students take classes at his public dojo in town at no charge. The dojo was across the street from the bus station, an adult theatre a couple of doors south, a massage parlor a couple of doors north, an area known for some to offer their wares on the street at night.
Now to be fair such letters would have generated laughs for most parents and significant others. Most were aware of the neighborhood, had been to the dojo for one reason or another. But a few might have had to explain where their dojo was. A minor inconvenience to laugh about later. But for a different type of legal business the police may literally be scaring away legitimate legal business, making the neighborhood even worse. Yeah, probably numerous grounds for lawsuits here.
I think the reasoning goes something like, "all life is sacred until a person does something wrong to ruin their own life's sacredness."
As often is the case, you just have to follow the money trail. Someone paid off someone else to push their expensive license plate scanners and services. The police may not even have wanted to do this, but someone up the chain of command got a free vacation home in the Bahamas for implementing the program. It'll all get swept under the rug soon, after enough uproar.
The only thing worse than a Democrat is a Republican.
Stop criminalizing sex. Just like pot, it's only sketchy 'cause it's illegal. Sure, there's still potential for abuse and harm... but in our present system, the laws mandate harm done to prostitutes and johns who are, by and large, just consenting adults. Unlike pot, shagging for pay doesn't harm one's ability to drive for the next few hours.
Because among the entire English speaking population there is nowhere that prefers to use the word infection as opposed to disease?
I've been trying come up with a concrete example of how license plate readers could be abused and here we are.
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Most prostitutes aren't doing it because they want to, they're doing it because their either forced or it's the only way to make ends meet. Maybe if we had a robust social safety net + basic income so that we could honestly say that no one was coerced into it you'd have a point, but good luck with that.
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I'd sue the police back to the stone age. Not only to I HAVE to drive down that street to go to work, but by doing this they are driving my customers away. This is just plain dumb.
Morons. They'll ruin peoples lives, likely based on some moron that saw Minority Report and thought it was a Good Idea. Someone doesn't just need to be fired outright for this, someone needs to be dragged out into the street and flogged publicly over it. You can't convict someone for a crime you think they MIGHT commit, and what they're doing here has essentially the same effect with regard to the general public.
Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
I think the reasoning is, "I am an asshole so I need to act like one."
"Believe me!" -- Donald Trump
Many of the women are actually forced into sex slavery. Someone conned them into immigrating illegally and now holds them captive, forcing them to have sex for money. There are also variations on this where the pimp has them addicted to some drug they supply. So the sex often is not actually consensual.
It seems likely to me that the main reason for that sort of solicitation is that there's no way for a legitimate business to advertise. You can't set up an office or a store. You can't put an ad in the paper and stay at a fixed location. You need to move around and proposition people who seem like they're not likely to be cops. I don't think any legitimate business would advertise that way, given the choice. It's not like dentists or hairdressers solicit in the streets.
This seems again to be primarily a problem with it being a criminal activity to begin with. People don't get trafficked and sold into slavery as office workers. So what is it specifically about prostitution that makes it special? I'd say it's primarily because it's an illegal profession and people who go into it have two choices: 1) Do it alone and hope you don't get murdered by a client or by the organized criminal who stakes a claim to your territory. 2) Join up with a pimp who is an organized criminal and very likely a dangerous sociopath. Blaming prostitution for human trafficking of prostitutes is a little bit like blaming drugs for drug smuggling drive by shootings. Those things are a natural consequence of a profitable business being completely run by criminals without any oversight.
Can you flesh this out a bit? Are the problems of Chicago in the 20s still something we observe today in, say, Nevada? Without knowing more details, this still sounds like a problem with having entrenched organized criminals running an industry.
An interesting anagram of "BANACH TARSKI" is "BANACH TARSKI BANACH TARSKI"
1. Copy legislator's license plates.
2. Place phony plates on cars near streets known to have a prostitution problem.
3. Hilarity ensues as Los Angeles legislators get prostitution warning letters.
Hell, I'd show my SO what the PD is doing, and we'd get in the car together and go trolling for letters. Then it can "ruin our marriage," or whatever, and we can see if we can get a nice chunk of money.
the solicitation is decidedly public
The solicitation is public because it is illegal, and therefore normal channels of advertising (on-line, phone book, etc.) are not available. There are jurisdictions, including Britain, where prostitution is legal, but public solicitation is not. Most transactions are arranged on-line, where it is nearly invisible to anyone who doesn't seek it out.
Sovereign immunity. You can't sue them for official acts unless they let you.
You can sue the police for violating the Constitution, as a matter of federal law.
" no brothels within 400m of a school/church."
While you're at it how about making churches pay tax,
god forbid you'd want consenting sex so close to a cult that has consistently protected pedophiles.
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B - D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0 45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
So you drive down the street and your home gets a letter saying you were driving down a street with prostitutes. So... why don't they just close the street?
...be regulated and taxed, not illegal. The idea that people should be forbidden to profit from their assets would be totally repugnant to Adam Smith.
Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
When you RTFA it says the proposal has been referred to the City Attorney.
So the City Attorney will write back that this is a Stupid Idea. Said idea is circular filed and life goes on.
So now they are working on the easy stuff. So glad robberies and murders are over with...
Oh wait....
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Have gnu, will travel.
Not all prostitute are female, there are so called gigolo too.
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However, the problem with this "activity" is that it encourages things like human trafficking, which is far from a victimless crime. I don't think a sufficiently strict regulatory structure can be built to prevent such abuse that doesn't cost a lot more than the current enforcement efforts based on current law. So I don't think your idea would really work out as well as you imagine. Girls will be trafficked and abused like they are now.
Human trafficking is market based subject to supply and demand.
If people who want to fuck for cash can go to their corner regulated, licensed brothel and buy all the sex they want there is less reason for underground unregulated markets to exist in the first place. Who is going to want to risk getting caught when the money is shit or they could open their own legitimate business?
Government is good at beating down outliers like murders and thieves but the 1920's showed us what happens when you try to beat down millions of people by force with disasters like prohibition. Government loses its power to organized crime which steps up to meet market demand by any and all means. People suffer unnecessarily as a result.
I see. It sounds like you have driven down one of these streets. You are probably reacting out of fear because you know you are guilty, and soon your wife will too.
I feel quite confident in making this judgment of you given solely the evidence provided in your post, as will anyone who finds out you have received such a letter from the police.
Actually, no. I know the anti-human trafficking community quite well and have an understanding of the harm these places do to millions of women around the world every year, many of them underage. In the United States, tens of thousands of people are trafficked every year. Lots of kids. Lots of girls who run away and find a pimp to exploit them and make them feel loved. Lots of stupid guys who have no fucking idea are out on the street paying to rape those kids. The people who teach "John School" find they get a mix--the johns who just don't care what they're doing, and the ones who had no clue.
But that doesn't make it right to send letters that risk breaking up marriages just because someone drives down the wrong block. At the very least, such a letter would need to be incredibly carefully worded, with a tact not many people can command. And even then, it may cause great harm to perfectly innocent people. Not to mention the expanded database of blackmail material that starts turning up in political opposition research.
So in other words, you believe there are "aesthetic crimes." Well, what if we don't like your lawn? According to your logic, there is no principled reason why we can't haul you away for your poor choice of garden flowers, because, "we don't want to have to see that."
So give the death penalty for human traffickers, just leave the prostitutes alone to sell what the "whatever good diety" gave them.
Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
It's also illegal in the UK to run any premises to use as a place of prostitution, or to live off the proceeds of another person's prostitution. That makes it impossible for prostitutes to work together, so it's still a risky business. They have to work alone.
What went wrong?
Photoshop the letters and then send them to everyone involved in this stupid campaign.
So I'm a tourist that get's lost, or my GPS decides to bring me down one of these streets. Next thing I'm getting a letter?!
Like, what?!
I parked the car outside.
Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion. -- Spazmania (174582)
Typical for L.A. In New York, people use the underground and taxis to drive to their extra-marital blowjobs.
Where the fuck is that earthquake that drops LA into the ocean?
"Assholes always advertise" -Walter Jon Williams
This posting is provided 'AS IS' without warranty of any kind, implied or otherwise.
I want to drive down this street just to get one of those letters! Public and widespread mockery is an effective countermeasure.
This posting is provided 'AS IS' without warranty of any kind, implied or otherwise.
I think the reasoning is, "I am an asshole so I need to act like one."
Actually, their reasoning is that a women's right to an abortion has been painted by pro-abortion advocates as a right to kill a fetus for no reason whatsoever or a "morning after" procedure and not something that a woman might actually need for a medical condition. As a Catholic, I don't sympathize for the former but one can't be human if you aren't feeling for the latter. I would never want to be in that position.
Pro-abortion advocates simply refuse to admit that abortion, as it stands now, it government sanctioned murder. Sure, a fetus can't live outside its mothers womb, but a 3 year old can't live without it's parents either and we don't allow people to kill them. The real problem with abortion is that the language used is so sanitized it becomes easier and easier to discount the value of life when it becomes an inconvenience whether a fetus, a baby, the elderly or the incarcerated.
and maybe stop having ridiculous laws against the private exchanges between consenting adults.
How is it any of their business? A worthless program of justifying jobs and budget to fight, nothing of consequence. Or what could be nothing of consequence, if not for their own bungling which turned it into a cesspool of criminal elements, from abusive pimps to human traffickers.
This is hardly a fix for the mess they made.
"I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
But the fetus can't be declared a ward of the state and provided to a foster home for care either.
Here's a little hint on how to seriously curtail abortion rates- teach adolescents how to use birth control and that the use of birth control is important. This isn't going to encourage teenagers to have sex, they already want to have sex and they already are having sex in many cases regardless of their parents' wishes. Teaching them to mitigate the consequences of sex is a lot more effective than trying to stop them.
Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
That one was pretty moo.
+5 cow pastures, would moo again.
APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
Ever heard of a home owners association created by deed restrictions? They are EXACTLY what you describe, and they obviously exist.
Look, there are decency limits of what you can do in public enshrined in law, so apparently there exists enough reason to put limits on public activity beyond safety. Even in New York City in Times Square they have specific rules about how one must dress which are more about not offending the majority of the tourists who frequent the landmark. So YES it's about how things appear, but it's also about the public good in some ways too so you cannot focus too sharply on just one part of this.
"File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
Let's say Bob runs a small business. It's not in the fanciest part of town, but it's a safe enough mixed-use neighborhood. Some whore gets busted on the corner of the block. Now Bob and all his customers are defamed by the city as being criminals. How does Bob's business fair?
But the fetus can't be declared a ward of the state and provided to a foster home for care either. Here's a little hint on how to seriously curtail abortion rates- teach adolescents how to use birth control and that the use of birth control is important. This isn't going to encourage teenagers to have sex, they already want to have sex and they already are having sex in many cases regardless of their parents' wishes. Teaching them to mitigate the consequences of sex is a lot more effective than trying to stop them.
And yet the AC Catholic you replied to, if they are a good Catholic, likely opposed birth control as well. If not, I would question why they choose to follow some of the Church's values but not others.
Abortion foes are usually just trying to control people's lives. The AC Catholic above is doing the same, as you can see from their objection to the "morning after" pill. That pill has nothing to do with abortion. But they disagree with its use because they think it allows women to just have sex without consequence. Like I said, controlling people's lives.
"What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
Los Angeles is not just flirting with pre-crime; it's driving down streets known to have a pre-crime problem.
This seems to border on the assumption that "ladies of the night" aren't people, and don't have friends etc. I had a buddy who regularly stopped to chat with the corner ladies, but to my knowledge did not engage their services. I've also hung out with a few gals who I didn't even know were in that particular occupation until somebody told me later.
The police are increasingly being expected to prevent crime, and the erosion of civil liberties will always follow. Until we let the police get back to enforcing the law instead of trying to prevent crime, this sort of crap as well as a host of other civil rights violations will continue.
Here's your homework - you can now learn how the myth you are repeating became the accepted (and wholly incorrect) public narrative. As well as many other relevant details.
--fyngyrz*
* Posting anon due to mod points - c'mon slashdot, there's no good reason for that, and never has been.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
You seem to be profoundly confused, my friend.
A.) I speak to my doctor in a private space.
B.) Support group is a safe space.
C.) A public space is where pro-life activists get to scream at you and also where you're free to give them the bird.
I hope that helps. Next time you need to discuss a sensitive matter of personal health with your doctor, go for A instead of C.
Jesus's apostles, almost to a man, carried swords. When the priests and temple guards came for Jesus, one of the disciples sliced off an enemy's ear.
In that section, Jesus isn't down with the violence, but he doesn't really condemn it either.
He effected a bored affect.
You think people work at McDonald's because they have better options? You think plumbers dig out your clogged toilet because they have better options? You think people dig ditches because they have better options? For that matter, you think I spend my time running a hugely successful business because I have "better options"?
The vast majority of undertakings for pay are done specifically because they are the best options available to the individual. That's the point of it for most people.
The entire meme that "it's a last resort" is nonsense as an attempt to demonize the undertaking. Prostitution is a job, the fundamental nature of which is service for money. Exactly the same as compensated massage, and compensated martial arts instruction, and compensated personal training, and compensated tutoring. The fact that it is an illegal job reflects the degree of idiocy of our laws and lawmakers, which serves to artificially make the job far, far worse than it would otherwise be. In other words, the job isn't the problem. Idiot lawmakers and the citizens that support them are the problem.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
Oh no, it's crime all right. Crime committed by the police.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
Perhaps it's time to mail some similarly informative letters about the police officers. They drive down these streets quite often. I mean, it's obvious, right? They must be there to break the law. There's no other possible answer, and we simply must inform their families. It's our moral obligation, don't you see? And even the ones we don't see doing it, well, you know they are almost certain to drive on those streets anyway. So no need to bother with the whole license plate thing. Just get a list of all the police officers and start printing out form letters for their families. And sleep well, knowing that you have performed a Public Service.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
...and anyone who enforces it or otherwise participates in it is far too stupid to be in a position of public tryst, er, trust, and should be fired.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
Make a copy of these letters and send it to the family of every local politician, then watch them fall all over themselves trying to ban the practice!
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
what about folks running a ministry to benefit girls trapped in that lifestyle (or just making sure that they get FED/HOUSED)?
this of course makes it a crime to drive down certain streets and increases the BlackMail potential.
What kind of problem? Apparently we're not afraid of HIV anymore, so rates of other STDs are going way up. Also, it's not a "victimless crime" if there is somebody other there that would be hurt by you engaging in this "consensual sex". Idealistically, yes, I believe people do have a right to exploit their own bodies for financial gain. However, the State also has a right to pass laws to protect the public health. Like drugs, the correct response is to legalize it, but regulate and tax the hell out of it.
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
Rotating locations defeats the purpose of hanging out in areas where they are most likely to encounter customers. Strange thing is, when I lived in LA and drove down Century Blvd. all the time, I never saw anybody that was identifiable as a prostitute... maybe I was there at the wrong time of day? The only street prostitute I've ever actually seen was midday in Manhattan; this black woman in a blue dress asked me, "Excuse me, sir, do you have the time?" I looked at my watch, and she said, "That's not what I meant!" (I just walked away.) Of course, she might have been a cop, too.
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
You're doing it wrong. If you film it, then you're producing XXX films using paid actors, so that makes it legal!
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
Pro-abortion advocates simply refuse to admit that abortion, as it stands now, it government sanctioned murder.
I'm pro-abortion and I'm pro-life. I fully support the right of any woman to choose whether to dispose of a parasite growing inside her, particularly if it's endangering her health.
I'm very much against people using their archaic primitive superstitions such as catholicism to deny any actual debate on such issues.
Why not? Because it's only a victimless crime if nobody else cares that you're there. Also, there is also a societal interest in preventing disease that dictates it must be closely monitored. Finally, even "legal" prostitution may involve fraud or coercion, so it must be closely regulated to make sure all participants truly give informed consent. In theory, I'm not opposed to the practice -- I just think it must be tightly controlled for practical reasons.
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
This mirrors my reaction to people that protest strip clubs located in their neighborhood. My response is, instead of holding up signs, why not have volunteers photograph the license plates of every customer's vehicle, and publish the information somewhere? That seems like the most effective method to put these places out of business, although it only discourages the people that actually care whether or not people know they were there.
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
Cities could use the sex offender trick. No brothels within 400m of any church, school, shopping mall, ice rink, park, daycare center, stop on any school bus route, or hospital. What, the entire city is within at least one of those exclusion zones? Guess you can't have your brothel then.
that is an excellent idea
Actually, HOA's are a civil matter and violating a civil contract is not a crime. Thus, they are completely different than what Mr.CRC described.
You don't want to see prostitutes soliciting on street corners. It seems that everyone whose replied to you agrees. The argument is how to get them off the streets, and I think it's been made clear that the way to do that is to legalize and regulate prostitution. We already have regulations on porn, which keeps the actors largely safe from violence, extortion, STDs, etc. (and really, porn is prostitution by any definition). And consensual sex behind closed doors in any other context is perfectly legal, obviously. So, your argument seems to be coming more from a moral perspective than a practical one.
Seriously. Pre-crime prevention does not work. Nor is it an effective or efficient use of tax-payer dollars. This is simply incompetence in action.
a) it's not my blog, and you really need to read some of those links. The entire human trafficking narrative is an overblown pile of tripe. .4 discovery rate... "discovery rate"? What kind of magic mumbo jumbo is that? Think about what you said there.
b) "estimating" cases that there is no evidence for is utter nonsense (as is what the hysterics call "human trafficking")
c) 1366 "victims" in 2014. Really? REALLY? This is "over 10000"? (and note that most "victims" are only victims of the DOJ)
d) at a
Fact: There are very few cases of actual human trafficking, that is, people who are acting in ways not of their own free choice
Fact: Prostitution is not "human trafficking", it is a service industry that is under attack from (powerful) moralizing morons
Fact: If "the truth is hard to ascertain", then the truth is not known
Fact: When we go from the previous fact to "OMG huge problem" we are engaging in purest hysteria
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
I didn't conflate prostitution with trafficking, merely pointed out that there are a non-zero number of cases with factual evidence.
Maybe you didn't read the US State Department report I linked. It is evidence based, includes global assessments and doesn't make up spurious numbers because it doesn't need to.
I don't think 0.4% sounds credible but your position that there are fewer cases than have been actually recorded is even less tenable.
Clearly you don't give a shit about modern slavery. I do.
Totally not offtopic, just a riff on an offtopic meme,
I am not your blowing wind, I am the lightning.
Of course, Catholics don't believe in contraception either, so it's hard to have a rational conversation about it with them.
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
Free people should flood the system with false positives by driving through those neighborhoods regularly.
"There is no god but allah" - well, they got it half right.