Flint, Michigan Declares State of Emergency Over Lead In Children's Blood (washingtonpost.com)

schwit1 writes: The Hurley Medical Center in Flint, Michigan released a study in September that confirmed what many Flint parents had feared for over a year: The proportion of infants and children with above-average levels of lead in their blood has nearly doubled since the city switched from the Detroit water system to using the Flint River as its water source, in 2014. "City officials have also said the use of corrosive Flint River water also damaged Flint's water infrastructure after state regulators never required the river water be treated to make it less corrosive." FEMA is now supplying bottled water to the city.

Comments

Roger & Me

[Baby Duck]

The afflicted city in Roger & Me just can't get a break, can it?

Re:Roger & Me

[Anonymous Coward]

Go away, Michael Moore.

Re:Roger & Me

[Anonymous Coward]

There's an old saying, Detroit is the asshole of Michigan and Flint is 50 miles up it.

Re:Roger & Me

[msauve]

Just like GM, Michael Moore moved his contribution to Flint's tax base away from Flint long ago.

Re:Roger & Me

[Anonymous Coward]

It won't give itself a break. It's still the same misgoverned hellhole it was in 1989. These midwest cities are basket cases and they don't want to change.

Re: Roger & Me

[Anonymous Coward]

This

Re:Roger & Me

[JimFive]

Actually, this particular problem was caused by the State appointed Emergency Manager attempting to save money without regard for the lives of the people who live there. There is some dispute about this reported in a Detroit Free Press article. But it seems pretty clear that local representation would have had incentive to avoid this problem.
--
JimFive

Well...

[jarablue]

Someone's getting paid.

state regulators "never required"

[Qzukk]

state regulators never required the river water be treated to make it less corrosive

Man, I bet those city officials must have a serious headache what with the state regulators not telling them not to hit their head with hammers.

Re:state regulators "never required"

[Anonymous Coward]

They had to use state-approved hammers that guaranteed to hit their thumbs.

Re:state regulators "never required"

[Anonymous Coward]

They need to drag "state" regulators into this because you can't pin anything the government of Flint does on Republicans.

Re:state regulators "never required"

[Ralph Wiggam]

The Flint city government was essentially taken over by the state in 2011.

Re:state regulators "never required"

[Matheus]

Hey at least the lake hasn't caught on fire in a while...

Re:state regulators "never required"

[Anonymous Coward]

Gov. Regulators, as the well as elected officials who presumably appointed them, should be brought up on Federal charges of Criminal Negligence. They knew about this prior, were given warnings that it would happen, and allowed it to go through anyways! Legislation be damned on this one. These people should be eviscerated in the courts and be doing time behind bars! There is absolutely no excuse for this!

Re:state regulators "never required"

[Anonymous Coward]

"Not our fault. We would have done the right thing if somebody forced us to."

Re:state regulators "never required"

[Anonymous Coward]

Is it hard to type with your hands nailed firmly into place?

Re:state regulators "never required"

[quetwo]

Except, the state, and it's republican government took over the city because they passed a law saying their finances weren't in order. The governor (Snyder) appointed a "EFM" to manage the city. One of his decisions was to no longer purchase water from the metro Detroit system (rumor has it, that they wanted to punish Detroit and make it less financially solvent by removing one of the larger water purchasers), and use the very old connections to the Flint River. The EPA sent up red flags immediately, but it got tied up in court until a few months ago. In the mean time, FEMA, the Salvation Army and many others have been delivering bottled water to schools and other community centers so people wouldn't be poisoned by the water they were buying (and being provided by in the schools, etc).

The amount they saved switching to the Flint River was less than 1%.... but with this entire debacle, the city will owe so much more money because the acidic river (which, by the way was found to be heavily polluted due to run-off from neighboring cities), managed to eat many of their already crumbling infrastructure.

But go ahead, play politics you don't know about and blame the democrats on this one. Hope it makes you feel better.

Re:state regulators "never required"

[quetwo]

Except the elected officials were taken out of power, by a law passed (repealed by vote of the people, then passed again in the middle of the night), and were replaced by an appointed official, responsible only to the Governor. The elected officials they had were unable to stop the switch, even though the EPA raised flags before the move happened. Everybody was ignored, but you know -- they think they were going to save a few bucks!

Re:state regulators "never required"

[Anonymous Coward]

solvent .. water .. *rimshot*

Re:state regulators "never required"

[Anonymous Coward]

because they passed a law saying their finances weren't in order

lololol - you mean recognized officially the gaping holes in their accounting and mind-boggling pensions and benefits plans to former employees (whom I feel sorry for because they were overpromised based on assumptions of high times when these cities and their surrounding regions were either going to, or in, nosedives) so something could be finally done about it?

Re:state regulators "never required"

[davester666]

Hilarious. "state regulators never required the river water be treated to make it less corrosive"

We didn't make the water safe to drink because nobody forced us to.

Republicans: There are too many regulations on water. If we deregulate, we will have more water providers, and people can choose how safe they want their water to be.

Re:state regulators "never required"

[Anonymous Coward]

so something could be finally done about it?

Something must be done! Poisoning everyone is something, therefore it must be done?

As a former resident of Crestwood, IL...

[Electrawn]

Lots of feels for Flint.

Re:As a former resident of Crestwood, IL...

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah! So that's why people split their first sentence between the subject and the body - it's the lead in the water!!

Re:As a former resident of Crestwood, IL...

[Electrawn]

In Crestwood's case, PCE or dry cleaning chemicals. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

As for commenting style, Slashdot never allowed subject only comments.

Re: As a former resident of Crestwood, IL...

[bitflusher]

It is the max # of chars on other media that makes people "efficient" in their communication. In 200 years misguided historians who mix and match decades will point out a 100 Mb drive costs about 200 dollars.

Re:As a former resident of Crestwood, IL...

[davester666]

They're just putting the lead in your pencil....

Re:As a former resident of Crestwood, IL...

[Anonymous Coward]

No, they do it because that's what they want to write. So sad you don't want people to do what they want with their post on their computer that is saved on a server you don't own where the owners haven't made it an offense to type the subject in the place you don't want it put.

Boo hoo.

Its always someone else's problem

[DarkOx]

FEMA is now supplying bottled water to the city.

So the locals elect a government, that decides to cheap out and not pay Detroit for safe treated water. They further device to cheap out and not treat the river water, known to be polluted, and screw up their infrastructure in the process.

Now you and I have have to pay to provide them all with bottled water? I realize it probably is a drop in the bucket but WTF? I say locals made their bed and now should lay in it. I am sure they enjoyed lower taxes or got to allocate that money to something else they wanted and enjoyed. They then stick us with the bill for their drinking water.

If they need to buy potable water there is place they can get, its called WalMart! They have a fabulous nation wide distribution system, and the CocaCola company and others are ready and able to feed it with safe good tasting bottled water.

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[MightyMartian]

Shouldn't the people who polluted the river bear some of the blame?

But of course, someone made fucking boatloads of money back in the day. That is untouchable. But boy, the victims of that activity, why they're stupid and deserve what they get!

I think in the future we should just declare large corporations and wealthy people to be gods, and gratefully drink the urine as a demonstration of how they deserve absolute, permanent and infinite immunity from their wrongdoing. Indeed, we should make it an executable offence to even suggest that a large corporate interest ever did anything wrong. People should have their organs cut out for daring to attack commercial interests, and, of course, all environmentalists should be burned alive. America is for the super rich, and everyone else can go get fucked.

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[Anonymous Coward]

You'd rather let your fellow citizens suffer, just out of principle, than help them in any way with a fraction of your tax dollars. You're a disgusting human being.

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[HornWumpus]

Tell us more of Flints election process. How do outsiders get to vote?

None of what you say changes basic facts on the ground. They made a mess and now the feds are picking up the tab.

Are 'rich mother fuckers' also responsible for the broken governments in DC, Detroit, Philadelphia, East St. Louis?

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[DarkOx]

It's the rich mother fuckers that dont even live there that voted for the current crop of scumbags in charge.

Just like I love when morons like you that can't even see past your own since of indignation post stupid shit that does not make any sense whatsoever.

How do vote for someone in a municipality where you do not live? Oh right you can't and even if some highly corrupt current officials tried to enact legislation that would allow non-residents to vote courts would slap it down in a hot second. Unless you are alleging voter fraud which we all not never actually happens which is why we don't have voter id laws.

As far as holding whoever polluted that river responsive, they more than likely already have been under the CERCLA. Its no longer their fault the EPA and DOJ did not actually spend the recovered monies where the problem exists.

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[ShanghaiBill]

Now you and I have have to pay to provide them all with bottled water?

That is a lot cheaper than paying for all the police and prisons that will be required if we let kids get poisoned with lead. Lead causes a significant drop in IQ and a rise in violent anti-social behavior. Getting lead out of our kids' blood is one the most cost effective public health measures imaginable.

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[vistic]

So the locals elect a government

They probably didn't. A lot of cities in MI are ruled by Emergency Managers, and the locally elected officials have no power at all.

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[Anonymous Coward]

My guess is these local officials aren't just "cheap bastards", but are facing hard economic times. Flint was the subject of Michael Moore's "Roger and Me" in the late 80s, and the economic picture was really grim then. I can't imagine it's much better now, and likely worse.

So I think the grim reality is that the city didn't have much choice. Nobody is really willingly going to want to switch to known polluted water without mostly being forced into it. Now you want the same city that's unable to pay for good water to have to pay for even more expensive bottled water?

You can't blame poor people for being poor.

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[Anonymous Coward]

Apparently, this situation is the result of several deliberate actions by the governors, in direct violation of the will of the people (the City Council resisted the decision and tried to get a switch back to Detroit water early in the year, but it was nullified by the Emergency Manager).

Basically, a bunch of rich potentates poisoned their constituency for their own gain.

As an aside, I have a counter top water distiller that I bought on Amazon. Distillation removes 100% of lead (and most everything else bad). I prefer using that over bottled water because bottled water exposes me to too much plastic.

You can't escape plastic or other pollutants, but you can reduce your exposure, which is exactly what I am doing.

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[LordKronos]

So what do you do if the residents decide not to go buy water, or can't afford it? Let them drink the contaminated water, I guess? Well, even if that is a bit heartless, OK...lets go with that "solution". So do we also condemn the 4 year old kids to drinking that water too, or are they supposed to get off their 4 year old asses, get a job, and go buy some safe bottled water on their own, since their parents can't or won't do it for them?

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[Grishnakh]

Please explain how poor people are prevented from voting and rich people who are non-residents can vote in local elections. That goes counter to every election system I've ever heard of.

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[Coren22]

Would you feel the same way if the lead was from a natural source? We should sue mother nature, not blame ourselves for doing none of the normal water treatment done all over the rest of the US.

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[HornWumpus]

True, but emergency managers are only put in after the locals make a mess of things and show they aren't even trying to fix anything.

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[barc0001]

> I say locals made their bed and now should lay in it.

Do you seriously think locals said "Hey let's elect these people so they can give us cheap tainted water!" Should a populace be held responsible to a person for the actions and effects of the decisions of their elected officials?

Re: Its always someone else's problem

[Anonymous Coward]

The people who polluted the water were probably all UAW workers. Maybe the union should be billed for it. Also involved were all the people who got cheaper manufactured goods due to the pollution. Confiscate the savings of all the retired people in Florida. I suppose all the Daddy Warbucks capitalists should also oay. So they'll raise their prices in order to stay in business.

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[reanjr]

Then people of Flint have nothing to enjoy, I assure you. You know how the rest of the country looks down on Detroit? That's how Detroit looks at Flint...

Re: Its always someone else's problem

[MightyMartian]

And once again we see how apologist for corporate excess want to blame everyone but the companies themselves.

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[Anonymous Coward]

fortunately, we don't have to feel that way the asshole who polluted this water (GM) is not your mother.

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[ganjadude]

for once i agree with a handout, leaded gas is blamed for the uptick in crime before unleaded gas came around. i dont know enough about the subject but if true the last thing we want is a town full of angry poor people

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[radarskiy]

"So the locals elect a government,"

Clearly, the children got the government they deserve.

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[Tailhook]

Shouldn't the people who polluted the river bear some of the blame?

The lead isn't coming from waste. The river water is acidic and leeching lead from the plumbing. The largest contributor of acid to the river is decaying plant matter; leaves and whatnot. There is a lot of that in Michigan and inland water frequently has high PH levels.

But nice corporate hate rant. You've been trained well. The city of Flint — 100% anti-business Democrat since Johnson — ruins its own water supply and it's somehow the fault of "corporations."

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[Ralph Wiggam]

So the locals elect a government, that decides to cheap out and not pay Detroit for safe treated water.

Flint elects a local government, but they have no authority. Since the city went bankrupt in 2011, all spending and managerial decisions are made by an "emergency manager" appointed by the Governor.

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[chmod a x mojo]

Well if you read the article, and the explanation of where the lead is coming from, you would know that the lead is not found in the water coming out of the treatment plants. The lead is being leached by pH imbalanced water in lead infrastructure feeder pipes and solder joints that go to homes and business.

In other words the dumbasses STILL have piss poor infrastructure, that they almost had to have known about, and didn't take into account pH treatments at their own self installed treatment plant.

So, please do tell me again about your other ravings on capitalism... when the fuck up is 100% the Flint cities fault.

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[rockmuelle]

"explain how poor people are prevented from voting "

A few ways. First, make sure the polling hours are during the work day when poor people have to make a decision between feeding their kids that night or voting. Also, make sure early voting has a short window. Then, require IDs to vote. But not just any ids, limit it to IDs that take some effort to get, like drivers licenses or state issued ID cards that can only be issued at the DMV. Close some DMVs and keep the other ones open only during those pesky business hours. Ensure the lines are long enough that it will require a three hour time commitment to get an ID. Once they reach the counter, turn them away because they're lacking some random piece of paperwork, even though they have more than enough with them to establish identity (true story: this is what happened to me last time I renewed my license in Texas - two afternoons off work and six hours in line).

That'll keep poor people from voting.

"[explain how] rich people who are non-residents can vote in local elections"

They can't, but they can flood the media with their message a strongly influence elections. They can also ensure that only topics that matter to them make it on the ballot. And after the election, they can just get their buddies who just got elected to do their bidding.

"That goes counter to every election system I've ever heard of."

My guess is that you've only read about elections systems in textbooks and never bothered to learn how they're actually implemented and commonly manipulated. As long as we've had electoral processes, people have found ways to game them.

-Chris

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[Anonymous Coward]

"So the locals elect a government"

That is promptly overrided by the "Emergency Manager"

This manager is sent from the governor, with no input from the locals.

The locals already tried to get back on Detroit water and the "Emergency Manager" overrode them.

Maybe you and the people who modded you up need to get their head out of their forth point of contact.

Re: Its always someone else's problem

[Anonymous Coward]

For examples, see Texas and Alabama...

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[Anonymous Coward]

Should a populace be held responsible to a person for the actions and effects of the decisions of their elected officials?

Yes. The populace chose those leaders to make the decisions for them. If the leaders do their job poorly, then the populace needs to replace them - through the standard election process, or a recall. If necessary, keep checking off the Box List.

As long as those leaders are allowed to remain in power, and allowed to continue doing a poor job, the populace is responsible for allowing it.

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[Anonymous Coward]

Comically, the bottled water is likely coming from the Detroit water supply, since that is where CocaCola has a large bottled water plant.

As to your other point of them using the taxes for something they wanted and enjoyed: Flint is a hellhole dying city, so they likely didn't get anything awesome with those tax dollars, but rather didn't go a little deeper into insolvency.

Also, Flint was a big general mills manufacturing city, not general motors, so the local industry is possibly not the issue, but something further upstream; meaning they may not have caused the problem themselves.

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[Anonymous Coward]

Poor people don't pay property tax, school tax, sales tax, and a bazillion other taxes?

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[Xolotl]

If they were it might make them a bit more careful about who they elect ...

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[MightyMartian]

I suppose you're next going to assert that trihalomethanes are coming from springwater...

How much does being a sociopathic shill pay these days?

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[TWX]

The lead isn't coming from waste. The river water is acidic and leeching lead from the plumbing. The largest contributor of acid to the river is decaying plant matter; leaves and whatnot.

It doesn't sound like the lead problem as-described is simply a case of service-entrance lead pipe from the street to the residence. If the water was acidic enough to leach the lead from 30' of pipe to reach these lead-levels then the people would be complaining of acid burns of the mouth and esophagus, and the pipes would have rotted away.

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[Tailhook]

Do you seriously think the Flint River has those levels of lead as a natural effect?

No. No one seriously thinks that because the Flint River isn't the source of the lead and only ignorant morons like you believe it is. The lead is coming from the ancient plumbing in Flint because the naturally and well known high PH of the river water is leeching it.

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[nedlohs]

The river doesn't have those levels of lead. So obviously not.

The lead comes from the pipes, which unsurprisingly the water still in the river hasn't gone through...

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[Tailhook]

trihalomethanes

Oh! Reading the story are we? Glad to see your done making shit up.

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[Anonymous Coward]

that's what the Organ Donor Card was all about.

No one said you have to be dead.
jrjr

Re: Its always someone else's problem

[sumdumass]

No, he placed blame on the corps too. See the daddy warbucks reference. He just didn't stop at the corporate levels and included the only means any corporation could do something - by action of people on its behalf and the monetary incentives making it feasible.

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[Anonymous Coward]

They made a mess and now the feds are picking up the tab.

Not unlike every season with hurricanes and forest fires. If people choose to live in a particular place, why should others that choose to not live there have to "pick up the tab"? This case is much the same. People made a bad decision and now the federal government gives them a disproportionate amount of taxes-paid services.

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[MightyMartian]

So where did the carcinogens come from?

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[Anonymous Coward]

Michigan created a law which allows the state to appoint emergency managers to run cities that it deems to be in significant financial trouble. This all occurred partly under the watch of state-appointed emergency managers, not all locally elected officials. Therefore the state of Michigan shares a significant amount of the blame here. Not that the city is blameless, but if the state is gonna send someone in because the people ruling Flint messed up, he better not mess up even worse. Now the city is still in debt and the residents don't have drinkable water to their homes.

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[geoskd]

Shouldn't the people who polluted the river bear some of the blame?

It's not the river water that’s polluted per se. The river water is fairly corrosive, a condition which does happen naturally, or could be the result of pollution of some kind. The river water by itself is safe to drink. The problem is that the city water infrastructure is built with a large amount of lead piping. The city’s homes also have a huge number of lead fixtures, lead fittings, and lead solder. The root cause is simply a refusal to dig up and replace all that dangerous piping in the ground and replace it. The Detroit water had hidden the problem by virtue of that fact that lake Huron water is not very corrosive, so it didn't dissolve nearly as much lead...

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[Anonymous Coward]

Shouldn't the people who polluted the river bear some of the blame?

The lead isn't coming from waste. The river water is acidic and leeching lead from the plumbing. The largest contributor of acid to the river is decaying plant matter; leaves and whatnot. There is a lot of that in Michigan and inland water frequently has high PH levels.

High pH is alkaline, not acidic.

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[geoskd]

It doesn't sound like the lead problem as-described is simply a case of service-entrance lead pipe from the street to the residence. If the water was acidic enough to leach the lead from 30' of pipe to reach these lead-levels then the people would be complaining of acid burns of the mouth and esophagus, and the pipes would have rotted away.

It doesn't take dangerous levels of acidity to leach 25 PPB from lead piping. a PH of about 6 would do it. That's the same PH as a peeled potato...

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[Anonymous Coward]

I could say, just maybe, under a system of government with a more equitable tax structure, those lead pipes could have been fucking replaced decades ago?

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[Anonymous Coward]

Fuck, are you stupid? I know shouting big nasty chemical terms makes you feel justified in hating on corporations and republicans, but, even the most cursory reading of an easily-found news article explains (emphasis mine):

Mailed Friday, Jan. 2, the customer notices come after the state Department of Environmental Quality issued a notice of violation of the Safe Drinking Water Act for maximum contaminant levels for trihalomethanes -- or TTHM -- a group of four chemicals that are formed as a byproduct of disinfecting water.

As city water plant operators used additional chlorine to fight bacteria in the Flint water system this summer, disinfectant byproduct levels also likely increased, city officials said Friday.

Source: http://www.mlive.com/news/flin...

Seriously, you fucking tard. Get your facts straight before you start shouting about how big businesses are evil poisoners of the poor folks in Flint. The treatment of the water with disinfectants is what's causing the fucking spike in trihalomethanes. It's NOT industrial pollution.

In fact, if you read this, you'll find that ALL of the shit you're shouting about here is caused by infrastructure & treatment problems - the water coming in from the river is not at the pH it needs to be - the acidity of the water is causing it to leach lead from pipes and other plumbing infrastructure at an accelerated rate, and the treatment that they're doing for microbial contamination is causing the increase in trihalomethanes - probably also because they're not buffering the water pH properly.

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[geoskd]

Do you seriously think locals said "Hey let's elect these people so they can give us cheap tainted water!" Should a populace be held responsible to a person for the actions and effects of the decisions of their elected officials?

No, but they really do elect those people for the dumbest reasons. I spent a fair amount of time involved in town politics in an "enlightened" state, and the fight was always the same: How much do we cut town services to reduce taxes, and how much do we allow the parents to raise the school budget.

No where in there does the towns infrastructure *ever* get updated. People simply don't have the long view when its not their money, and most voters are one issue voters who are barely qualified to keep breathing. That was a wealthy influential town, I can't even imagine what the hill billies are like...

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[Anonymous Coward]

Clearly you aren't familiar with Michigan politics. The fuck up is not 100% the city of Flint's fault, there are a lot of factors here. There's a decent summary of the goings-on here: http://www.freep.com/story/opinion/columnists/nancy-kaffer/2015/10/29/flint-water-crisis-government/74736590/

In short, the state of Michigan appointed an emergency manager who had broad powers over the city of Flint, and under his watch the plan was implemented to pump the river water. At some point after water safety problems were observed, the council voted to switch back to safe Detroit water, but was not allowed by the emergency manager. The state and emergency manager have been heavily involved in the switch to the new water supply, and played a role in completely fucking it up.

Also, your criticism of the infrastructure is kinda off. Soldered copper and lead are common in pipes and because of that the treatment plant should have considered methods to prevent lead from seeping in. If they had switched back to Detroit water, their drinking water would have been fine.

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[Tailhook]

If the water was acidic enough to leach the lead from 30' of pipe to reach these lead-levels then the people would be complaining of acid burns

More making stuff up. You can go read primary sources here, with pictures and everything.

In our tests, this condition was 8.6X worse than Detroit water. Assuming this rate applies to the actual city pipe system, the last 16 months on Flint River water would have aged the pipes about 138 months (138 = 8.6 X 16 months) or 11.5 years more than using Detroit water.

Leeching doesn't require concentrated acid. It's a function of time. Leave slightly high PH water in contact with lead solder for many hours and you get a pulse of dissolved lead the next time you open the tap.

GM dropped it's water contract with Flint earlier this year because of the high PH.

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[Noah Haders]

If they need to buy potable water there is place they can get, its called WalMart! They have a fabulous nation wide distribution system, and the CocaCola company and others are ready and able to feed it with safe good tasting bottled water.

umm, the coca cola water is bottled from the tap at the local coca cola plant. Where is the local coca cola plant getting their water from? Hopefully not the same source.

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[Anonymous Coward]

This is the first post with actual facts about the situation.

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[PopeRatzo]

Do you seriously think locals said "Hey let's elect these people so they can give us cheap tainted water!" Should a populace be held responsible to a person for the actions and effects of the decisions of their elected officials?

But that's not what happened. It wasn't the elected officials that caused this problem so much as the emergency managers who refused to do anything about a problem that they knew full well was hurting people.

"Emergency managers" means "lawyers the Republican governor hired to run a town after he superseded the government that had been democratically elected." It's privatization of government, pure and simple.

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[Noah Haders]

if the lead is coming from the local pipes in people's houses, then how come the lead poisoning started when they switched water sources? That sounds like bee ess.

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[truckaxle]

Yeah but the kids who didn't cast a vote for the cheap skate route are the ones who end up paying and paying dearly... which incidentally society pays in the long term.

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[PopeRatzo]

Since the city went bankrupt in 2011,

Flint didn't go bankrupt. It was forced into receivership by the the State of Michigan in 2011, after Governor Snyder (R-Douchebag) declared a "state of emergency".

The emergency was lifted in April of this year, and now the city's trying to dig out of the willful neglect of the hand-picked lawyer that the Good Governor Snyder put in place of the democratically elected government. But not before many of the assets that the city owned have been sold off to private entities. It's what's known as "Disaster Economics" (aka Vulture Capitalism). As another well-known corporatist once said, "Never let a disaster go to waste".

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[slew]

if the lead is coming from the local pipes in people's houses, then how come the lead poisoning started when they switched water sources? That sounds like bee ess.

pH changed when they switched the source of water, the now acidic water dissolved lead in solder joints and thus ends up in the water in people's houses...

http://www.mlive.com/news/flin...

Or so they say... Or it all could be bee ess of course...

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[ShanghaiBill]

the last thing we want is a town full of angry poor people

Yes, and the lead causes both the poverty and the anger.

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[Anonymous Coward]

The lead is coming from the ancient plumbing in Flint because the naturally and well known high PH of the river water is leeching it.

Don't you mean low PH? I don't think alkaline leaching is a thing, but am no chemist.

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually rich people can enforce voting by making the state government take over the city government and make all sorts of bad decisions. Often this results in selling off the assets of the city and closing the local government.

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[radarskiy]

"Please explain how poor people are prevented from voting and rich people who are non-residents can vote in local elections"

The Emergency Manager is not a locally elected position. The position is appointed by the governor.

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[Tailhook]

Often not. A recent example I can corroborate is Detroit. Over 50% of households in Detroit are delinquent on property taxes; they're tax squatters and have been for many years. They famously don't pay their water bills either. Some large fraction of your "bazillion other taxes" are contingent on employment, which is another rare condition in these areas. Otherwise you're just deducting income taxes from benefit checks or paying sales tax with EBT credits.

Flint is just a smaller analog of Detroit.

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[TooManyNames]

The high pH the river water is more prone to carrying particulate lead (lead from the poor plumbing infrastructure) than the lower pH water that had been used before switching sources. That being the case, the water source switch had an indirect impact on lead concentrations in water ultimately provided to Flint's citizenry; it wasn't that the Flint River was just inundated with lead to begin with. Here's a paper to better illustrate how that indirection isn't as bullshitty as you seem to think.

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[Anonymous Coward]

Low pH is acidic.

Re: Its always someone else's problem

[Anonymous Coward]

Is this a joke? Are you kidding? I hope so, cause when it comes to local government there's a shit ton of corruption, to lay the blame on the people who live there and tell them to buy their own non leaded water is ridiculous.

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[kramer2718]

I say locals made their bed and now should lay in it.

*lie. Lay is a transitive verb. Lie is an intransitive verb that often takes prepositional phrases involving "in" or "on".

Many apologies, but this is a pet peeve of mine.

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[Tailhook]

I'm not chemist either. There are some details on the present state of affairs here.

To you point, "Marc Edwards is a civil engineering professor from Virginia Tech University" says, "water is [becoming] corrosive and it’s causing this higher lead, the pH value is plummeting, it’s becoming more acidic." So yes, I mean to say lower pH, or more acidic.

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[ChrisMaple]

You got it backwards. Low pH is acidic, attacks the lead and forms water soluble lead compounds.

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[Anonymous Coward]

So where did the carcinogens come from?

Probably decaying matter (the source of the high river water pH) interacting with the disinfectants in the water.

Source:
http://www.env.gov.nl.ca/env/faq/thm_facts.html

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[St.Creed]

the last thing we want is a town full of angry poor people

Yes, and the lead causes both the poverty and the anger.

If low IQ and poverty were related, most of Hollywood's rich and famous would be begging in the streets. It doesn't help to get out of poverty if you have a low IQ, but I guess that the local schools and lack of employment for the parents have a much bigger impact in terms of money.

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[Anonymous Coward]

That sounds straight out of Atlas Shrugged...

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[Anonymous Coward]

Almost everyone in the US and many other areas have lead in the pipes. Government needs to get up off the people and let them be brain damaged. After all that makes them less costly to program they believe that TV and media are required to be truthful like political ads.

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[Anonymous Coward]

So where did the carcinogens come from?

Oh it couldn't possibly be related to the source of naturally high pH level interacting with the disinfectants added by the city.

Oh wait. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trihalomethane#Water_pollutants

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[HornWumpus]

Only after the local government is hopelessly fucked on their own.

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[ShanghaiBill]

If low IQ and poverty were related ...

Low IQ and poverty are strongly correlated. Just because the correlation isn't 1.0, doesn't mean there is no relationship. Sure, a few dumb people get rich, but most don't.

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[HornWumpus]

You skipped the whole part about the local government running their finances into the ground, repeatedly refusing to cut anything and wanting the state to pay for everything.

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[Anonymous Coward]

[Not the person you're replying to]
Man, as a non-native speaker, that one gets me every time. People say contractions and apostrophes are difficult, but they have nothing on the confusion lie an lay bring. I have to get the books every time. :/

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[HiThere]

The problem is the pipes were designed for water with a certain pH. The river water had a different pH, in which lead was soluble. Nothing to do with river water lead pollution. The old source of water, Detroit, was safe to use with the pipes. The river water wasn't. But the river water was cheaper.

Also Flint is full of poor people, and was forced into bankruptcy (don't know the details) by the governor, who then appointed a representative to run the city. The water change was his policy, as was selling off many needed city assets. For some reason this didn't solve the problem, but did create new ones, like lead poisoning.

I'm not sure, but this appears to be "crony capitalism" in action. It looks as if several laws were broken, but none that bothered anyone powerful enough to get any enforcement.

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[Anonymous Coward]

Weren't the biological concerns about lead known long before this infrastructure was put in place? If so, who would use it for plumbing?

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[squiggleslash]

So... just to be clear...

You are in favor of intentionally poisoning children with a metal that will almost certainly cause permanent brain damage, because a majority of the adults in the same city they live in might have, many decades ago (in the vast majority of cases cases being grandparents of the children concerned, or else unrelated), mistrusted the wrong people the least to manage their city's finances?

You're in favor of that?

This is why I often lose faith in humanity.

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[Anonymous Coward]

100% correct. The effects of lead are well established.

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[HornWumpus]

If all you had was the feds to help you, in ether case you'd be fucked.

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[Anonymous Coward]

"So the locals elect a government, that decides to cheap out and not pay Detroit for safe treated water."

This was a decision forced on the local government by the state Emergency Manager. The EM even going so far as to nullify a council ordinance that tried to block the move.

This is very much a move forced on the local residents by the state, which now the country has to pay for. It is a poorly thought through, and poorly implemented forced austerity measure. Which is working out about average for such measures in the long term.

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[Anonymous Coward]

In short, the state of Michigan appointed an emergency manager who had broad powers over the city of Flint, and under his watch the plan was implemented to pump the river water. At some point after water safety problems were observed, the council voted to switch back to safe Detroit water, but was not allowed by the emergency manager. The state and emergency manager have been heavily involved in the switch to the new water supply, and played a role in completely fucking it up.

So follow the money, find out where all the kickbacks and payoffs are going and civil forfeiture their asses back to the stone age in order to pay for a new water system. Oh, and throw the emergency manager in prison for ten or twenty years for attempting to poison every citizen.

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[Anonymous Coward]

Just like I love when morons like you that can't even see past your own since of indignation post stupid shit that does not make any sense whatsoever.

How do vote for someone in a municipality where you do not live?

You elect a dumbfuck prick governor, who appoints a executive to run the city who can overrule anything the locally-elected government does. That's how. If you weren't a cocksucking prick yourself you'd understand that.

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[quetwo]

Except, the state took over the city because they passed a law saying their finances weren't in order. The governor (Snyder) appointed a "EFM" to manage the city. One of his decisions was to no longer purchase water from the metro Detroit system (rumor has it, that they wanted to punish Detroit and make it less financially solvent by removing one of the larger water purchasers), and use the very old connections to the Flint River. The EPA sent up red flags immediately, but it got tied up in court until a few months ago. In the mean time, FEMA, the Salvation Army and many others have been delivering bottled water to schools and other community centers so people wouldn't be poisoned by the water they were buying (and being provided by in the schools, etc).

The amount they saved switching to the Flint River was less than 1%.... but with this entire debacle, the city will owe so much more money because the acidic river (which, by the way was found to be heavily polluted due to run-off from neighboring cities), managed to eat many of their already crumbling infrastructure.

Re: Its always someone else's problem

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmmm I thought that low pH meant more acidic, since the p is the inverse log.

Re: Its always someone else's problem

[Anonymous Coward]

There are a lot of incredibly evil corporations out there. Corporate suspicion is fully justified...follow the money, and often you'll find some shadey wrongdoings.

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[OhPlz]

Do you realize what an undertaking replacing all of a city's pipes is? The small city I live in has similar problems with an outdated infrastructure and they've been replacing it for decades and will be replacing it for decades to come. It's not really a matter of replace them all and you're done. With a system that large, it's a never ending continuous replacement program. By the time you've done everything, the stuff you started with is at its end of life again.

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[Wild_dog!]

Except it wasn't the officials elected by the people of Flint.
Was the City Manager who was appointed by the governor.
The people of Flynt and elected officials apparently had little to say in the matter since the governor took over the city.
The EPA warnings about the problems with the water went unheeded... and voila!!!!
You now have to pay for the incompetence of the City Manager appointed to run the city instead of the duly elected officials.

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you realize what an undertaking replacing all of a city's pipes is? The small city I live in has similar problems with an outdated infrastructure and they've been replacing it for decades and will be replacing it for decades to come. It's not really a matter of replace them all and you're done. With a system that large, it's a never ending continuous replacement program. By the time you've done everything, the stuff you started with is at its end of life again.

That's definitely true. But at least your city is decades into the process. How far a long is flint? 99% complete? Or not even started? I don't know the answer, but it would be interesting to know if they even tried to do something about it.

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[Anonymous Coward]

For all the talk of democracy, the US sure has a funny way of implementing it. Here in Oz, our elections are on Saturday. Always. If you know you can't get to a polling booth on the day, you can pre-vote using a mail-in form. No ID is required, but your name is crossed off the roll. I once voted in Sydney for a federal election when my electorate is in Brisbane - I had a sudden trip to Sydney when I won a plane ticket the night before. Woke up on Saturday and thought "dang, gotta vote. Better find the polling station." And off I went. Polling stations are everywhere, usually in school halls.

The "no ID" thing may yet change, but everyone has some form of ID. If you don't have a driver's licence, you can get an over-18 card. The over-18s need it for ID at the pub if they don't have a licence.

As for voting or feeding the kids, most polling stations have a sausage sizzle going. Take the kids!

Perfect, no. I mean, you still have to vote (yes, have to), but the AEC go out of their way to make it easy for everyone. You have to run the gauntlet of party volunteers shoving how-to-vote cards in your face, but they're generally nice, if not a little enthusiastic.

All in all, it's a fairly painless experience.

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[liquid_schwartz]

"explain how poor people are prevented from voting "

Then, require IDs to vote. But not just any ids, limit it to IDs that take some effort to get, like drivers licenses or state issued ID cards that can only be issued at the DMV. Close some DMVs and keep the other ones open only during those pesky business hours. Ensure the lines are long enough that it will require a three hour time commitment to get an ID. Once they reach the counter, turn them away because they're lacking some random piece of paperwork, even though they have more than enough with them to establish identity (true story: this is what happened to me last time I renewed my license in Texas - two afternoons off work and six hours in line).

I never understood this complaint about ID. Who the hell doesn't have ID? If you can't be bothered to get ID you probably shouldn't be voting. I feel for the working poor but have contempt for the non-working poor. They are swimming in time yet always claim to have "not gotten around to that yet" as they are too busy doing ... something. Get some ID, it's not that hard. Even in your post where you complain about the DMV (hopeless in every state I'm sure) you still did it. The complaint about requiring ID is foolish. What's next, you expect us to have an address too, they nerve of these voting laws. Next I'll probably have to be able to spell my own name or something.

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[Anonymous Coward]

I am about 50 but this is my personal experience. In CA the law says you have to have a valid state ID at 16. I was not driving but to be legal I had to stand in the 3 hour lines and pay the fees. To be legal. Not to vote. I could not have voted because of my age. At least in CA none of these laws would stop someone from voting because legally they would already have an ID. Your entire rant is the long lines are manufactured to keep people from voting. *CITATION NEEDED* If it is so damned important, get an ID in an off-year when the lines are not so long. If it was that important to them they would handle it. All my young, broke years, I worked 60-100 hrs/wk and never missed an election.

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[Firethorn]

The state and emergency manager have been heavily involved in the switch to the new water supply, and played a role in completely fucking it up.

Well, since it was the state appointed emergency manager that made the problem worse, sue the state for damages.

Re: Its always someone else's problem

[Anonymous Coward]

Hopefully they can restore it to the glory days of 2010.

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[serviscope_minor]

So the locals elect a government, that decides to cheap out and not pay Detroit for safe treated water. They further device to cheap out and not treat the river water, known to be polluted, and screw up their infrastructure in the process.

I can almost feel the smug sense of self righteousness oozing off you.

Too bad you're wrong. The state enforced this on Flint. The locally elected government tried to reverse it but was blocked by the state.

CocaCola company and others are ready and able to feed it with safe good tasting bottled water.

You mean the same Coca-Cola company which took perfectly safe tap water, made it dangerous and then put it in bottles?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[rsborg]

So the locals elect a government, that decides to cheap out and not pay Detroit for safe treated water. They further device to cheap out and not treat the river water, known to be polluted, and screw up their infrastructure in the process.

Gov Snyder placed the city under an *emergency* finance manager (wtf title is that), essentially cutting out any civic control of their own city.

It's straight out of the autocrat playbook - and it got it's results - kids were poisoned to save a % or two on water (and to starve Detroit's water treatment system... because fuck them).

Starve the beast, and let the kids get poisoned ... all in a days work for a GOP governor. Hell, I'm surprised he isn't on the lineup for a 2016 presidential candidacy.

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[rsborg]

So the locals elect a government

They probably didn't. A lot of cities in MI are ruled by Emergency Managers, and the locally elected officials have no power at all.

How many emergency managers were in place before Gov. Snyder (GOP)?

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[KGIII]

with pictures and everything.

The missus is mad at you. I laughed loud enough to wake her up. I didn't mean to but it was that funny - even if not meant to be. I told her to blame it on some probable naval aviator and she glared at me and went back to sleep. Ah well... Were I still a drinking man, you'd owe me a keyboard. Well, maybe. It's five in the morning so perhaps not.

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[hippo]

Sorry to be picky but do you mean the water frequently has high acidity? Or PH levels too far below 7?

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[St.Creed]

I agree they're correlated. But poverty has such a huge impact on your chance to actually learn something (and circumstances in poor areas in the USA are even harder than elsewhere in the OECD) that it's hard to get the causation right.

Re: Its always someone else's problem

[PopeRatzo]

Hopefully they can restore it to the glory days of 2010.

They won't even be able to restore it to the sorry state it was in back then because the "emergency manager" sold off the city's only revenue-producing assets.

Yes, Snyder took a bad situation and made it worse. And he did it by enriching his friends.

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[Anonymous Coward]

"explain how poor people are prevented from voting "

A few ways. First, make sure the polling hours are during the work day when poor people have to make a decision between feeding their kids that night or voting.

The voting hours on election day in Texas are 7am - 7pm. That's for the whole state, every polling location.

Also, make sure early voting has a short window.

Texas has 11 consecutive days of early voting for every election: http://www.votetexas.gov/ (bottom right of the page).

Then, require IDs to vote. But not just any ids, limit it to IDs that take some effort to get, like drivers licenses or state issued ID cards that can only be issued at the DMV.

Texas accepts seven different forms of ID, three of them issued by the federal government. Even the ones issued by the state aren't all issued at the DMV. You can get a concealed handgun license without ever setting foot in a DMV. You can get a free Texas Election Identification Certificate at one of the mobile events that the state sponsors in rural areas in the months before each election.

Close some DMVs...

There are 220 DMV offices in Texas.

and keep the other ones open only during those pesky business hours.

This may be your only marginally valid complaint. The DPS "mega centers" are open 7:30am - 6:00pm M-F. Most of the locations are 8-5 M-F. Some of the smaller locations are shorter hours for only 3 days a week.

Ensure the lines are long enough that it will require a three hour time commitment to get an ID.

The mega centers have online appointment scheduling so that when you get there you walk right up at your scheduled time and get served; no waits. I'm not sure if the other locations do this.

Once they reach the counter, turn them away because they're lacking some random piece of paperwork, even though they have more than enough with them to establish identity (true story: this is what happened to me last time I renewed my license in Texas - two afternoons off work and six hours in line).

The requirements are simple, and listed on the website. If you can't follow simple instructions, it's your own fault.

That'll keep poor people from voting.

yawn...

Besides, if you have a job you've already had to comply with federal I9 requirements (http://www.uscis.gov/i-9-central/acceptable-documents/acceptable-documents) which means you already have the ID required to vote in Texas. If you don't have a job, you have plenty of time to go get ID. In fact, you have all year to secure a single morning or afternoon to get ID. The only people prevented from voting in Texas by the ID law are the extravagantly lazy.

Re: Its always someone else's problem

[Anonymous Coward]

Accountability for massive health cockups? Where do you think this is, China?

Re: Its always someone else's problem

[GLMDesigns]

Same goes for governments (local, state and federal). Follow the money. The same rule applies as well.

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[Anonymous Coward]

How does ignorant trash like this get modded insightful?

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[Coren22]

So, now it is GM, and not the town emergency manager that knew nothing about water treatment and decided no plant was needed to remove the acidity of the water going into the water system to prevent lead from solder joints (still normal in plumbing!) didn't leach into the water?

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[Ol Olsoc]

if the lead is coming from the local pipes in people's houses, then how come the lead poisoning started when they switched water sources? That sounds like bee ess.

Inside of the pipes, what is in the water has a chemical effect on the surface. In an area with so called hard water, the ph is higher due to dissolved minerals like calcium, or magnesium lime compounds.

Acidic water on the other hand, will actually corrode away the inside of the pipe, which can include any lead within it.

The hard water higher ph versus acidic lower ph is such a marked difference in reacting with pipes, that there are still some places with Actual lead pipes, that are sorta kinda safe, because the lime minerals precipitate onto the walls of the pipe, sealing off the lead - but it's not so safe it shouldn't be replaced.

What is severely surprising is that the ph of the water was either not tested, or tested then ignored.

Because in a world based on basic physics and science, you don't want acidic water in any municipal pipes. It's just going to attack the pipes and destroy the infrastructure over time.

And if there is one element with a track record of destroying lives, it is lead. You very much want as little lead going into children's bodies, with a goal of zero. It lowers intelligence, and predisposes the victims to violent behavior. Here's a link -http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-27067615

Forbes has some info as well, but they want me to disable my ad blocker.

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[Ol Olsoc]

You got it backwards. Low pH is acidic, attacks the lead and forms water soluble lead compounds.

Correct. The acidic water attacks most everything.

Weird side note - My home town only recently replaced it's oldest water distribution pipes Late 1800's vintage - and made of wood.

The town has rather "hard" water.

I sometimes wonder if a lot of these problems are caused by political ideology trying to trump science.

I knew about soft and hard water and it's effects on pipes before I was 10. I cannot imagine these politicians who are very very smart not knowing those effects.

The effects of exposing people to lead in their drinking water should be treated as a criminal offense.

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[dywolf]

Brawndo!

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[dywolf]

But apparently you arent

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[dywolf]

Dang that is some tasty koolaid aint it?

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[Ol Olsoc]

I agree they're correlated. But poverty has such a huge impact on your chance to actually learn something (and circumstances in poor areas in the USA are even harder than elsewhere in the OECD) that it's hard to get the causation right.

There was a reason that lead was taken out of gasoline. Screws up children, and they grow up with some violent dispositions. The only group benefitting from that is for profit prison stockholders.

The research as been done on prisoners, the lead levels correlated, the most violent tended to have the highest levels. The violent criminals also gridded out to growing up in places where they had access to the lead to get those high levels, and the removal of tetraethyl lead from gasoline then corresponded with a drop in violent crime.

The chiiling aspect is given the general hatred of science these days, that the same studies would be denied, and we'd have politically based denier fueled nonscience keeping tetraethyl lead in gasoline.

It would just be another thing to deny on denialists denial list.

Undeniable!

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[Anonymous Coward]

The sad thing is that the effects of lead were well established *before* it was added to gasoline as a 'knock' inhibitor.

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[Anonymous Coward]

*LOTS* of people (especially the *working* poor) don't have current IDs that are acceptable for voting. (That seems to be one of the criteria of the recent GOP push for 'Voter ID'.)

The fact that you don't think getting an ID is hard tells me that you live and/or work somewhere with relatively low population density, and where the DMV is easily accessible. It also tells me that you probably have a car, and can afford to take a few hours off during the work week to visit the DMV.

The working poor, on the other hand, seldom have a car, so they're limited to public transportation, which adds to the transit time. They also tend to live/work in places where there are *many* people, and few DMV locations. This adds to the wait time when they *can* manage to get to the DMV. It's not unheard of for DMV visits in some cities to be 4-6 *hour* affairs due to the sheer volume of people being served. (Show up when they open at 9am, get through the line, and get your issue dealt with sometime around 1p-3p.) Factor in the fact that these are people who are working jobs where they don't get vacation time or sick time, and don't even necessarily have anything approaching a fixed schedule, and are also dealing with getting their kids to/from where they need to be, and you're looking at a situation where it becomes a major project to renew a state id card without losing your job for missing a day of work.

Further factor in some of the recent schemes which involve *closing* DMVs in heavily populated, poor counties (It's a cost-saving measure!!!!), and you end up adding 3-4 hours of transit time, and further overloading the DMV that the people now have to use.

The fact that you 'never understood' this is an indictment of your ignorance, not an indication that these things aren't real issues that impact *many* people.

Heck, I live in reasonably-affluent suburbia, and *I've* spent upwards of 3 hours waiting in lines just to do a title transfer when I bought a used car. It took 4 hours to get my first drivers license (not counting transit to/from the DMV), and I lived in reasonably-affluent suburbia then, too.

FTLOD, the person you *responded* to described the process that, for them, took "two afternoons off work and 6 hours in line".

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[JimFive]

So the locals elect a government, that decides to cheap out and not pay Detroit for safe treated water. They further device to cheap out and not treat the river water, known to be polluted, and screw up their infrastructure in the process.

Not quite. The Locals elected a government, then the State Governor removed that government and appointed an Emergency Manager who made the decisions about switching water supply and not updating infrastructure. And hey, the Emergency Manager didn't have to drink the water, he didn't live in Flint.
--
JimFive

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[JimFive]

No, the Emergency Manager appointed by the Republican Governor ruined Flint's water supply. Whether one blames corporations for that depends on how you view money in modern politics
--
JimFive

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[Anonymous Coward]

So, I'll just reply to this from the perspective of the Texas voter ID law, since it's one of the ones always shrilly shouted down for trying to prevent poor people from voting.

Let's attempt to construct this fictional person who is prevented from voting by the law here in Texas:

1. He has to have never had valid ID to start with, because if he did he could have renewed it online in about 10 minutes. I hadn't been to the DMV in almost 15 years, until about a year ago when they wanted me to come in just to get a new picture. My license still showed me as a college student because I kept renewing it online.

2. He has never had legal employment, because if he did he would have had to meet the federal I9 ID requirements, and would thus already have the ID needed to vote, and could have renewed it online to keep it up to date. So he's either working off the books illegally, or in an illegal trade. (And don't try to confuse things here: he still has the right to vote.)

3. Whatever illegal employment he has must be so serious that he never has a weekday off. EVER. Because if he did he could go to one of the many DMVs in Texas that has online scheduling, walk right to the front, and be served.

4. Whatever illegal employment he has must be so serious that in addition to never having a weekday off, ever, he never has a weekend off, ever, because if he did he could spend 4 hours and $80 in a concealed handgun class and get an ID that is acceptable to vote with. OR he could spend a day on the weekend to go to one of the mobile events and get a free Texas Voter Identification Certificate.

5. He's not prevented from getting an ID and thus voting by being elderly or disabled, because if he were either he can vote by mail in Texas without an ID.

Who is left? Who works seven days a week, every week (in a super serious illegal business at that), FOREVER, has never held a legal job, and can't get away for the time it takes to go to the DMV for their scheduled appointment one time every 15 years?

Who? I'd love to meet one in Texas.

Boohoo it takes effort to be able to prove who you are to vote! Go complain to the Justice Department about it; they'll make you show photo ID to submit the complaint.

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[dywolf]

that "some effort" you talk about, involves a 3 hour drive, in both directions, for some of the folks in Texas.
also, learn some history about how this is extremely similar to how black folks were kept from voting for decades.
all that's changed is they found a new way to deny the vote to people who would vote against them.
that disenfranchisement isn't a bug, its a feature.
it is the designed intent of the laws.

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[RockDoctor]

Well, it has been done in most of the world, so it's not actually impossible. Britain had essentially completed replacing public water infrastructure with lead-free materials (principally alkathene - a form of polythene, I think, with coatings) some time back in the 1980s, having started back in the 1960s. My parents house got done in the mid-80s and since I entered the housing market in the 1990s I've never seen lead piping, or lead-containing solder in any plumbing supplier. The stuff simply cannot be brought. It doesn't get made any more.

There probably is lead plumbing still in individual old houses. But whenever anyone needs to do any plumbing repairs, they simply cannot obtain parts and fittings to connect to existing lead plumbing, so have no option but to rip out and replace. Or stop using that part of the system, which has the desired effect.

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[mccabem]

Informative how? Where are my freaking moderator points???

Awesome that GM was founded by a guy with the middle name of "Crap-o" - just like their vehicle and company have all turned out to be.

This, I say, only because it bears repeating - especially into the face of people like you who'd just as soon blame the employees or town:

Fuck GM.

Re:Its always someone else's problem

[Agripa]

Using lead solder in plumbing is not a problem unless the water has a low ph like the river water they switched to.

So?

[Ultra64]

What's wrong with having the most blood?

Re:So?

[neminem]

Personally, I was wondering what the case was that involved children's blood (sounds interesting!), what lead they found, and why a state of emergency was called because of it.

Re:So?

[martinfb]

Draws vampires!

Question is what the source is...

[ErichTheRed]

Wasn't Flint the city that basically got abandoned by GM when they closed their plants years ago? They're held up as a poster child for Rust Belt decline, much the same way my hometown was back in the 80s. So the question is where the lead is coming from -- is it a natural source? I thought most large-scale industrial activity that could cause that much lead emission outside of auto production was done in Michigan long ago.

Whatever the cause, talk about a crappy set of circumstances. A city now has an environmental mess to deal with after losing all of its industry and chance of a recovery.

Re:Question is what the source is...

[phantomfive]

So the question is where the lead is coming from -- is it a natural source?

Mainly from lead solder in the water pipes. When the water leaves the purification plant, it is below federal standards. The river water has higher chloride levels, which are corrosive to the solder.

Re:Question is what the source is...

[HornWumpus]

So it's a local problem with idiots to cheap to use silver solder on their pipes?

Water mains aren't generally copper or soldered.

Re:Question is what the source is...

[Zak3056]

IIRC, the water is not (especially) polluted. The problem is that the water is leaching lead and other contaminants out of the pipes. The Detriot water was, apparently, not so hard on the distribution system, hence why the river water is the problem.

I agree with your closing: this is a really shitty set of circumstances, and the partisans really aren't helping. "Blame the democrats, they own the government," and "blame the Republicans, they appointed the emergency management that changed the water source" really ignores the people getting screwed here, and gives a free pass to the previous leadership (of whatever party) that failed to invest in infrastructure that doesn't poison you.

Re:Question is what the source is...

[leathered]

I worked in a water testing lab many years ago. This lead is almost certainly coming from lead pipes and solder because the pH of the water is too low. Raising the pH to 7.5-8.5 would minimise plumbosolvency and combining that with phosphate dosing would practically eliminate it.

Re:Question is what the source is...

[ibpooks]

Not really abandoned as much as Flint made it a very easy choice for GM to leave when other options became available. The extremely corrupt union locals and local politicians in Flint made it impossible for GM to continue doing business there. While many other rust belt cities faced similar challenges in keeping the manufacturing companies from leaving, Flint was a cut above in terms of being actively hostile to the auto business. It was no surprise at all to those of us in the region when GM left Flint.

Many of the surrounding cities in a ~50 mile radius of Flint still have large manufacturing businesses, including auto industry, so it was not something that effected the entire region to anywhere near the degree of Flint. The attitude and culture in Flint was really different and GM responded by washing their hands of that mess and leaving.

Re:Question is what the source is...

[gweihir]

What incredible idiots use leaded solder on pipes for potable water?

Re:Question is what the source is...

[phantomfive]

Yes. I don't know how long ago people stopped using lead solder in water pipes, but apparently they were using lead water pipes as well, so they really should have known better.

Stories like this though, tempt me to get a toxicity test done on my water.

Re:Question is what the source is...

[itsenrique]

"Idiots" is a strong word considering some of the water infrastructure is well over 100 years old in this country. People were still using lead in pipes in the past decades, the issue here isn't actually directly the use of lead. They switched to water that was corrosive, this ate away at the built up mineral deposits over the lead (and everything else). Then the lead crept in. The water wasn't coming from the source with too much lead. There is another interesting case out of Baltimore where when they switched to chloramine from chlorine as their treatment agent, it ended up leeching huge amounts of lead out of old pipes. Most people have no idea about pipe construction materials, and generally just use what comes out of the tap. If you are in an apartment, how do you even begin to check all that piping for lead solder anyway? I personally lived in a place that had peeling lead paint from the ceiling for a few years, and I do think it had some negative effects. I'm thankful I wasn't a child at the time, as they are much more sensitive to lead.

Re:Question is what the source is...

[careysub]

So it's a local problem with idiots to cheap to use silver solder on their pipes?

Because in a city with a 27% poverty rate most residents recently built their houses to spec, and had plenty of money to spend on silver solder too? Probably they spent all their silver solder money on hookers n' blow too.

Look at the stats on Flint, MI. The median age of housing there is 1953 ! These are poor people living in ancient run-down housing!

Sure the wise Emergency Manager running the town (not elected by the residents) was totally in the right sending corrosive water to the residents to save a little money. If it poisons the kids living in the houses by dumping lead into their water, it is just too damn bad!

Re:Question is what the source is...

[phantomfive]

Check it out, not just lead solder, but also actual lead water pipes. It's amazing they don't all have brain damage.

On the other hand, Mitt Romney's from that area (I kid, I kid).

Re:Question is what the source is...

[bws111]

A house built in 1953 is by no means 'ancient' or necessarily run down. One of my friends has a house (in a city) built in 1850. It is not 'ancient' (it is old) and it is certainly not run down.

Re:Question is what the source is...

[HornWumpus]

You need to get out of America, at least once in your life.

1953 is not 'ancient' housing. Most pipes in 1953 were steel. The 60 were the start of copper soldered piping being common. Lead solder was not legal for plumbing in 1960. Silver solder is not that expensive, it's not pure silver.

Further most plumbing has an expected life of 40-50 years. After that it's limed up and has to be replaced. Depends on the local water.

Re:Question is what the source is...

[AthanasiusKircher]

Lead solder was not legal for plumbing in 1960.

You may want to know what you're talking about before writing derogatory messages against another post. Lead solder wasn't effectively banned in new construction until the Clean Water Act of 1986. Some local laws may have been in effect earlier, but it's certainly possible to find lead solder in old houses.

Silver solder is not that expensive, it's not pure silver.

Yes, obviously, but lead solder was cheaper, more standard, and more durable than many alternatives for decades. It was still widely used until it was effectively banned -- particularly by low-cost contractors who built cheaper houses or installed cheaper systems.

Further most plumbing has an expected life of 40-50 years. After that it's limed up and has to be replaced. Depends on the local water.

Guess you haven't heard about all the situations with actual lead PIPES still in old houses from a century ago. Small house pipes often need to periodically redone, but the large supply pipes and connectors to city systems often were made with lead pipes years ago, and many cities still have a lot of them in use. They're often very expensive to replace for a whole city, and poorer cities likely can't afford it. Read the water safety standards sometime -- lead concentration safety is usually measured after water has been flowing for a couple minutes, because in many older houses and older cities it takes that long to clear out the water that's been sitting there and leaching lead, copper, and other things... from lead solder, and perhaps even large old lead pipes.

Re:Question is what the source is...

[ChrisMaple]

More likely the 1953 piping was iron, not steel. Large municipal water pipes should last over 100 years. Indoor pipes should too, it's not good planning to rip up the walls and slab foundations every 50 years.

Re:Question is what the source is...

[ChrisMaple]

Think about the construction of a soldered pipe joint. The actual area of exposed solder is very small.

Re:Question is what the source is...

[HornWumpus]

The clean water act was never intended to be a substitute for building codes and wasn't.

I learned to plumb before 1986 and lead solder in plumbing was unheard of and banned by building code.

Re:Question is what the source is...

[HornWumpus]

Your right of course. My bad.

There are many cities where 40 years is what you get from pipes. With the last 10 being low flow.

Re:Question is what the source is...

[Anonymous Coward]

Silver solder is not used on copper piping. Tin/antimony is. Antimony replaced lead in solder long ago, but lead still leaches from old (pre-antimony) systems, especially when the water pH drifts much above or below 7.0.

Re:Question is what the source is...

[gweihir]

Depends on the craftsmanship. If some is running inside, then you can get quite a bit larger exposure.

Re:Question is what the source is...

[mvdwege]

Oh yes, the Unions, that were responsible for the horrid 70s designs that the American car industry couldn't sell except by hobbling the competition with tarrifs.

Re:Question is what the source is...

[Anonymous Coward]

Things might be different in the U.S., but in the Netherlands, lead pipes are only found in pre-WW2 buildings that have never been renovated. Lead solder was occasionally used until the 1960s, as were brass fittings and taps that contained small amounts of lead.

Re:Question is what the source is...

[JesseMcDonald]

Read the water safety standards sometime -- lead concentration safety is usually measured after water has been flowing for a couple minutes, because in many older houses and older cities it takes that long to clear out the water that's been sitting there and leaching lead, copper, and other things... from lead solder, and perhaps even large old lead pipes.

Doesn't that rather defeat the point? It's not like people generally leave the water running for several minutes before filling their glass. The water they're drinking is exactly the part the test is throwing away because it's too contaminated.

Re:Question is what the source is...

[mccabem]

Ah hah! So it was the corrupt local officials in Flint that made GM a suck-ass company!

"Too big to fail."

Comedy. Fucking comedy.

Fuck GM.

Just how many pencils...

[Anonymous Coward]

Just how many pencils are these people throwing in their river?!

Nearly doubled

[Fwipp]

Because "nearly doubled" isn't a super useful stat for evaluating the relevance of something:

In the affected area, 2.1% of children less than 5 years old had "elevated" blood levels of lead (more than 5ug/dL). After switching to the new water source, 4.0% of children less than 5 had elevated lead levels. Sample size was about 900 both before & after the water switch; so this roughly translates to 18 unexpected cases in the study. The population of Flint is about 100K, with 8% under 5 years old, so we can estimate that somewhere around 160 children in Flint received a high dose of lead as a result of the water switch.

Re:Nearly doubled

[Anonymous Coward]

So... am I supposed to still feel pitchforky or not? I feel a little less pitchforky, and frankly, I don't like.

Re:Nearly doubled

[Anonymous Coward]

While we're thinking of the children, we shouldn't forget that this affects everybody. It's worse for children in critical phases of their development, but lead poisoning is a serious problem after childhood as well. Lead makes aggressive and reduces cognitive ability. It's a nerve toxin. It has lots of other detrimental effects on the human body. Lead accumulates in the body, so if that increase of elevated blood levels is from just one year after they switched water sources, then they absolutely cannot keep using that water.

Re:Nearly doubled

[careysub]

Of course this is "so far". This is after only 15 months or of exposure. If detection and intervention had not occurred this number would have kept rising as lead accumulated in children's bodies.

Re:Nearly doubled

[Fwipp]

Oh yes, I totally agree. If it wasn't clear from my post, I think it's absolutely abhorrent that so many people have come to harm due to this decision, and I'm glad that they've finally got their water switched back to the Detroit system.

Re:Nearly doubled

[Ichijo]

The population of Flint is about 100K, with 8% under 5 years old, so we can estimate that somewhere around 160 children in Flint received a high dose of lead as a result of the water switch.

No, we can't. We can only estimate that 160 children under 5 years old received a high dose of lead. Not all children are under 5 years old.

Re:Nearly doubled

[HiThere]

True, you'd need to know the sampling procedure, and in any case that seems too small a group for statistical reliability.

OTOH, it's a clear and present danger, it confirms reasonable expectations, and we don't have a larger sample.

Until someone shows that the data is in error, I'm going to believe it generalizes as expectations imply.

Re:Nearly doubled

[rubycodez]

What harm? threshold for lead poisoning is much higher, we're in the realm of statistical correlation for lower IQ here, a nebulous thing

Re:Nearly doubled

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh no, pretty soon they'll be smart enough to post on Slashdot!

Re:Nearly doubled

[Anonymous Coward]

If it was your child who had received a dose of lead because someone else fucked up the water supply, you'd perhaps see it differently.

Re:Nearly doubled

[phaggood]

Um, 10% of 100,000 is 10,000, so 160 seems a bit low

Re:Nearly doubled

[rubycodez]

my children get a lot of bad things in water supply because of pollution. the question is what level? my town publishes independent analysis of its water supply, yours may as well.

No suprise to many...

[Lumpy]

Anyone who has lived in michigan knows, you dont live on the south east side of the state. it's all a mess and so corrupt that anything goes.

Interesting comment in TFA

[nawcom]

You won't find the phrase "Emergency Manager" in this article, which indirectly positions the parasitic state government as our saviors in this crisis. And yes, I can say that without apologizing for city misconduct. When a newspaper of record like the Washington Post or The New York Times fails to report a detail as enormous as the persistent erosion and suspension of home rule in a time of public austerity, they essentially mislead their readers and distort the historical record.

Here are a few details that the Detroit Free Press and the Flint Journal managed to include but which the Washington Post and the New York Times did not:

- In 2011, newly elected Governor Rick Snyder passed Public Act 4 which allowed him to appoint an Emergency Manager over financially distressed cities with the power to liquidate assets, suspend and renegotiate contracts, and even disincorporate cities.

- In 2012, Michigan voters repealed Public Act 4 by public referendum, but within weeks the Republican majorities in the state legislature passed an almost identical bill, Public Act 436, that, as an appropriation, is referendum proof. Snyder signed this bill.

- From most of 2011 to 2015, Flint has been under a sequence of four Emergency Managers who, during their tenure suspended local officials, liquidated assets and, oh yes, DECIDED TO DRAW OUR DRINKING WATER SUPPLY FROM THE FLINT RIVER! Emergency Manager Ed Kurtz made the commitment, Emergency Manager Darnell Earley oversaw the transition, and Emergency Manager Jerry Ambrose nullified a City Council resolution to switch back to Detroit water in early 2015.

The Post should be ashamed for the way it has reported this story, and I do not say this lightly. These two so-called "bastions of liberal thought" have helped let an overwhelmingly gerrymandered and Republican-dominated state government off the hook for their role in poisoning 100,000 mostly poor, mostly black people in this city.

Re:Interesting comment in TFA

[phaggood]

Dammit; where are my mod points?

Re:Interesting comment in TFA

[MobyDisk]

Public Act 436, that, as an appropriation, is referendum proof.

Whoops! Looks like they need to amend their state constitution. Or take this to the Michigan Supreme Court. Their constitution says:

The people reserve to themselves the power to propose laws and to enact and reject laws, called the initiative, and the power to approve or reject laws enacted by the legislature, called the referendum. The power of initiative extends only to laws which the legislature may enact under this constitution. The power of referendum does not extend to acts making appropriations for state institutions or to meet deficiencies in state funds

I doubt that the writers of the Michigan state constitution meant that legislators could add "...and the state will buy a candy cane" to their laws and have them be referendum-proof. It seems more likely that an appropriations bill was meant to have nothing but appropriations in them. Combining appropriations with other laws blurs the definition of an appropriations bill. I bet there is a good chance the Michigan Supreme Court would either strike down the law, or allow a referendum to proceed against the portions of the bill that are not appropriations.

Re:Interesting comment in TFA

[MobyDisk]

Gah!!!! Other state constitutions say the same thing. CRUD!

CONSTITUTION OF MARYLAND
ARTICLE XVI
THE REFERENDUM. ...No law making any appropriation for maintaining the State Government, or for maintaining or aiding any public institution, not exceeding the next previous appropriation for the same purpose, shall be subject to rejection or repeal under this Section.

Re:Interesting comment in TFA

[compro01]

I bet there is a good chance the Michigan Supreme Court would either strike down the law, or allow a referendum to proceed against the portions of the bill that are not appropriations.

A court that is 7/9 Republican and 3/9 Snyder-appointed? Good luck with that.

Re:Interesting comment in TFA

[pi_rules]

- In 2011, newly elected Governor Rick Snyder passed Public Act 4 which allowed him to appoint an Emergency Manager over financially distressed cities with the power to liquidate assets, suspend and renegotiate contracts, and even disincorporate cities.

That's a bit of a half-truth. Michigan's Emergency Financial Manager laws were put in place back in 1990 under Democratic governor Blanchard. It wasn't used too much, but Democratic governor Granholm (2003-2011) appointed 7 of them. With the slight expansion of powers in the 2011-2012 changes one concession was that the local government could boot an EFM after 18 months. Granted, if the "triggers" to require an EFM were still there they'd get a new one, but that's probably why Flint has bounced through so many since 2011.

WikiPedia has a handy chart of when/where they were used in Michigan.

The blind partisan vitriol on the issue of EFMs is rather staggering to me. I've seen Snyder called a racist for appointing an EFM (like in Benton Harbor) when all he did was reappoint the EFM previous governor Granholm had already put in place.

And it's not like the new water treatment system was a new idea. Flint spent $50 million upgrading their unused water treatment system between 1998 and 2006, well before anything related to EFMs came into play, though they were under one from 2002-2004. I don't think it's all that illogical to ask/force a city government that just spent $50 million on a water treatment plant to actually use it instead of buying it from Detroit and letting the plant sit idle while they go broke.

Re:Interesting comment in TFA

[Anonymous Coward]

So the elephant in the room that nobody seems to notice is this... Who actually made the error that resulted in more lead in the water?

Example. If the Fire Marshall orders a business to get a sprinkler system installed, and the contractor that installs it (hired by the business) makes an error that causes a pipe to burst and water damage, is the Fire Marshall at fault?

Similarly, who actually implemented the order to switch to the river water? If the Emergency Manager hired them, then he did a bad job of it. If he passed it to the Flint City people to handle, then they did a terrible job making sure the pH was correct.

You can't just expect the Emergency Manager (emphasis on Manager) to know about pH levels and chemistry of the water. There are other people that are hired for that.

If it was indeed City people that performed this switchover without checking important attributes they were hired to know about, then THEY screwed up.

Boiling the Lead Out

[DumbSwede]

What I’d like to know is how the advice to boil the water was going to make it safe for drinking? Even now they are saying safe for washing and cooking. Again, if it is lead, why is it safe to cook with it? The idiocy just never seems to end. Perhaps all the politicians in Flint have lead poisoning as well.

Re:Boiling the Lead Out

[starless]

What I’d like to know is how the advice to boil the water was going to make it safe for drinking?

Well, if you boil it... and condense the water vapor... you should be OK...
(As long as you don't make your still out of lead pipes.)

Re:Boiling the Lead Out

[halivar]

My guess is that you are supposed boil your water that came out of the tap cold, rather than using hot water from the tap. As per the CDC (http://www.cdc.gov/nceh/lead/tips/water.htm), hot water contains more lead, and boiling THAT water does not remove the lead. But if you do need hot water, you will need to boil cold tap water instead.

Re:Boiling the Lead Out

[Khashishi]

Boiling isn't to remove the lead, but to kill pathogens and remove some dissolved solvents and possibly some of that corrosive stuff that caused the lead to leach into the water.

Re:Boiling the Lead Out

[DumbSwede]

Again if lead is a major contributor as is acknowledged, cooking with it will not be safe. You can remove the volatiles and any bacterial contaminates yes, but the lead remains. Why say it is still safe to cook with? Even earlier when the were advising boil to drink, were they aware at all about the lead levels? Seems more like a desire to play down the hazard by giving the populace something to do, even if ineffective.

Re:Boiling the Lead Out

[Anonymous Coward]

To play devils advocate on what could just be a stupid mistake, metallic lead isn't all that reactive and mostly will go through the body while compounds like the lead acetate that did so much to the Romans (artificial sweetener in wine!) is more likely to stay in your body. Boiling it could break up whatever form the lead is in and into something harder to digest - however filtration through something like charcoal or a lot of things other than boiling makes a hell of a lot more sense.

Re:Boiling the Lead Out

[HiThere]

I'm rather certain it is still safe to boil eggs in it, as long as the shell remains intact. And steaming vegetables should be safe. That's cooking.

Lead from water?

[TechyImmigrant]

I presumed the extra lead came from all the bullets entering everyone's bodies because they lived in a redneck town where guns are common and the gun owners are cognitively challenged when it comes to understanding the consequences of widespread gun ownership.
 

Re:Lead from water?

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, you're smart!

Re:Lead from water?

[TechyImmigrant]

Wow, you're smart!

No, just a little friendly trolling.

Re:Lead from water?

[Anonymous Coward]

I presumed the extra lead came from all the bullets entering everyone's bodies because they lived in a redneck town

Rednecks? Flint is mostly black and they're the 10th most liberal city in the US.

Re:Lead from water?

[TechyImmigrant]

I presumed the extra lead came from all the bullets entering everyone's bodies because they lived in a redneck town

Rednecks? Flint is mostly black and they're the 10th most liberal city in the US.

I was neither providing correct insights nor expecting positive mod points. It looks like I'm already down one.
I've never been their either. I hope they fix their water before I do.

Water comes from lead solder in pipes

[phantomfive]

According to this article, when the water leaves the treatment plant, it is lead-free (within an acceptable margin of error). The problem comes from old (ie, still being built in the 1980s) pipes that used lead solder to connect the copper. The older pipes are around the city and inside homes, and will take 15 years to replace.

The water from the river has higher levels of chloride, and chloride is corrosive to iron, which caused the lead to leach off into the water.

Re:Water comes from lead solder in pipes

[MobyDisk]

I posted so I lost my mod points. Darnity, this was a really good post.

Re:Water comes from lead solder in pipes

[gweihir]

chloride is corrosive to iron, which caused the lead to leach off into the water

On copper pipes? Seriously, this is utter bullshit. The water is corrosive to the tin-lead solder, of course. Who in their right mind would use leaded solder on drinking water pipes is another question.

Re:Water comes from lead solder in pipes

[bws111]

Lead solder was used on copper pipes in most homes until 1980. Many cities (including the one I live in) have solid lead pipes as water mains.

Re:Water comes from lead solder in pipes

[HornWumpus]

I learned to plumb copper before 1980. We did not use lead solder back then.

Re:Water comes from lead solder in pipes

[bws111]

Lead solder was banned from residential plumbing on June 19, 1986.

Re:Water comes from lead solder in pipes

[Anonymous Coward]

Can someone explain to me why people in the US all seem to drink pool water?
In Florida at least when I opened the tap it was like I was about to jump in a swimming pool.
I mean, I get that the underlying problem is the pipes in this case, but still.

Re:Water comes from lead solder in pipes

[phantomfive]

Can someone explain to me why people in the US all seem to drink pool water? In Florida at least when I opened the tap it was like I was about to jump in a swimming pool.

It depends on the location. Chlorine is one way to clean water, and some municipalities put a lot of chlorine in their water, others not much (or none at all).

The US is a huge area, and the water varies dramatically. In areas near Bakersfield, the water tastes and smells like rotten eggs. You're never sure if you're cleaner after taking a shower.

Re:Water comes from lead solder in pipes

[Anonymous Coward]

So did my dad (learned to plumb before 1980, about 1957 by my best guess). He didn't stop using leaded solder until they took it out of his cold, but still living, hands in the mid 80s. Because it's easier to work with.

I imagine you might need to be that old to have worked with leaded solder as the only option and gotten used to it flowing easier. And thus not wanting to change over. Whereas someone learning later wouldn't have had any reason to choose anything leaded in the first place.

Re:Water comes from lead solder in pipes

[HornWumpus]

By the feds. Who don't write building codes.

It was prohibited way before that and it use unheard of by plumbers.

Re:Water comes from lead solder in pipes

[HornWumpus]

You lived near the pumping station.

Always taste the water before you sign a lease, doubly so when buying.

Can someone explain to me why Germans like to drink carbonated salty water? They look at you like some kind of low class dweeb if you ask for 'water' not 'mineral water'.

Re:Water comes from lead solder in pipes

[Anonymous Coward]

Lead solder was banned from residential plumbing on June 19, 1986.

It was banned yesterday too. Did you mean SINCE 1986?

Re:Water comes from lead solder in pipes

[gweihir]

That is pretty bad. Lead does really, really nasty things to peoples minds.

Re:Water comes from lead solder in pipes

[gweihir]

Well, that would explain some things about the US population in comparison to some other countries. Lead makes people violent and stupid.

Re:Water comes from lead solder in pipes

[dave420]

1. The water doesn't taste salty
2. You don't get funny looks if you order still or tap water
3. It's really cheap
4. I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

Re:Water comes from lead solder in pipes

[drinkypoo]

I live right under the takeoff path for the local airport and I SUPPORT TRUMP

*ahem*

(this was a joke, you have to be a fucking idiot to support trump, not just crazy)

Re:Water comes from lead solder in pipes

[Anonymous Coward]

No. He means it was banned *on* June 19, 1986. That is the date on which the ban went into effect.
Had he said "Lead solder was banned from residential plumbing since June 19, 1986.", he'd have been using improper grammar.
He could have said, "Lead solder has been banned from residential plumbing since June 19,1986.", and been correct, but his original statement, as written, was correct.

Helpful Tip:
When trying to be a pedant, it helps to make sure you're not also being incorrect about the target of your pedantry.

Re:Water comes from lead solder in pipes

[Sir Holo]

It's braze, not solder, but the difference is only in the melting temperature of one metal alloy used to join or seal a different metal.

A bigger source is in the older US cities. The big water-feeds were made of brick, then lined with lead. Chlorine, or a bit of sodium hypochlorite (bleach), had been used for decades, and the lead had long-ago grown a protective scale, so no lead got into the water.

Well, around 2002, Washington DC changed to chloramine. That stuff dissolved the protective scale, and led to all the kiddies in Washington DC having high levels of lead in their blood. OOPS!

Re:Water comes from lead solder in pipes

[Anonymous Coward]

Helpful Tip:
When trying to be a pedant, it helps to make sure you're not also being incorrect about the target of your pedantry.

Then you should have used "first banned" or "banned since"

What is your favorite color?

[onkelonkel]

Just curious, what color are Flint people? Are they perhaps mostly not-white? Because I have trouble imagining this happening in, say, Grosse Pointe, for example.

Re:What is your favorite color?

[Anonymous Coward]

You can never go home again, Oatman... but I guess you can shop there.

Lead exposure causes increase in violent crime?

[Anonymous Coward]

There was a study a few years back that attributed our declining violent crime rate to the reduction in exposure to lead.....now we have a way to test that theory. If the Flint/Detroit crime rate climbs significantly over the next 20 years we'll have more proof.

Sloppy summary

[Elledan]

After reading the friendly summary & article one might be left confused about where this lead is coming from, but according to the Wikipedia entry on the Flint River, it's due to the river's water being corrosive (presumably low pH) and degrading the lead pipes which form part of the water distribution network of the city.

The water itself is lead-free as it leaves the treatment plant, but still unsuitable for drinking due to containing high levels of carcinogenic trihalomethanes, which was the original reason that the river water was deemed unsuitable for producing potable water from.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flint_River_(Michigan)

Re:Sloppy summary

[Sir Holo]

Right. Iron pipes moving water with chlorine are just fine. . . as long as the pH is above 7 (not acidic), which is usually the case if water is sourced from an underground aquifer (limestone cave-to-be).

third world standards

[Anonymous Coward]

When I was a youth I was taught that USA was a first world modern nation. But when I later visited what I saw was a third world country with a lot of money. The transportation systems, infrastructures, the phone and internets, the education systems, mains outages, all at third world standards that were shocking to us.

I do not understand why Americans are willing to put up with so low of standards. You have enough resources to fix these things. You are rich and resourceful. Why you do not?

Re:third world standards

[Grishnakh]

Because we're stupid, that why. Why does any group of people do stupid things?

Re:third world standards

[Anonymous Coward]

Can you talk to my wife? She, having never lived there, has this idea that we should move to the US and can't understand why I, having spent the first 30 years of my life there, have no desire whatsoever to move back.

Re:third world standards

[Anonymous Coward]

America is the greatest country on Earth because we have freedom. Every other country is just a bunch of freedom-hating godless commies or sand-eating terrorists.

Re:third world standards

[Anonymous Coward]

There is no profit in it.

Re:third world standards

[Cimexus]

They probably were the most modern, advanced nation with the best quality of life in the post-WW2 era, through the 50s, 60s, arguably 70s. They then rested on their laurels and have done virtually nothing 'big' for the last few decades in terms of infrastructure, reforming the tax system, education, healthcare, etc etc. Other countries have caught up and overtaken them, as evidenced by their falling rankings in HDI or any number of 'quality of life' or 'where to be born' indices.

The big problem as I see it (as someone who has lived in several countries but has lived in the US for the last 3 years or so) is that everything in the US is a patchwork. Everything is super-locally governed ... cities and counties have their own police forces, road construction funds, school curricula, etc...things that in most countries would be governed at a Federal or State/Provincial level. So you get this inconsistent, inefficient mish-mash of standards, laws and regulations. Makes it more difficult for different regions to work together or get big-picture things done. Their system of government doesn't really allow much 'top down' lawmaking - getting anything major done is hard and requires an unreasonable amount of consensus (which will never happen in the current hyper-polarised political environment). When my home country did major things - switched to the metric system, introduced universal health care, changed the coinage, completely rewrote the tax code - a political party said they'd do it as part of their election platform, they were elected, and then it actually happened. Can't see major reform like that happening in the US these days.

This 'patchwork' effect shows in the physical world too. You can be in a nice area with manicured lawns, shiny clean office blocks and nice houses ... then cross a road or some 'invisible' line (which might be some obscure town or district boundary) and be in what looks like a third-world shanty town. It really did amaze me when I first came to America - you simply don't see that in other developed/OECD countries. The very fact that you can gerrymander electoral districts in the US and that there isn't an independent body that sets the boundaries based on population/census data (and that most people don't see a problem with this) says a lot.

Don't get me wrong, it's not a BAD place to live (if you have money). But it's no longer the world-beater it was. It's 'just another country' these days.

Re:third world standards

[manwargi]

Greed and individualism most likely.

Re:third world standards

[moeinvt]

"Everything is super-locally governed ... system of government doesn't really allow much 'top down' lawmaking"

In principle, not in practice. If that's your observation, you're seeing only the vestiges of what the system is supposed to be like. The USA was founded on the basis of the state governments being the supreme power. The federal government was granted very limited powers by The Constitution and the Tenth Amendment specifically delegates ALL other powers to the states and The People. It was supposed to be difficult to "get things done" because "top down" power was rightly seen as dangerous! The country grew and prospered into the world's economic and military super-power under this system of limited federal power.

The long-term historical trend, dating back at least to the mid 1800s, is accumulation of power by the federal government at the expense of state and local governments. The War for Southern Independence and its aftermath probably marked the biggest federal power grab. Numerous Supreme Court decisions throughout the years have continued the trend. Not to say this was 100% bad, but it is still part of the trend of undermining state sovereignty and centralizing power in the federal government. There's a good book called "Who Killed The Constitution" which documents much of this. Federal government more than tripled in size over the course of the 20th century, from ~7% of GDP to well over 20% of GDP. We have more "top down" governance right now than at any time in history and the result has been an utter disaster for the nation.

I could go on and on, but our "patchwork" system was good. If all the states reclaimed their rightful power, they could be legislative laboratories for other states to observe. People could also vote with their feet. Don't like your progressive/socialist state government? Fine, pack up and move to a state that's more to your liking. We see this to a very limited extent with people going to states where medical marijuana is legal. It would be awesome if we had similar options over a much larger spectrum of issues.

Re:third world standards

[Anonymous Coward]

When my home country did major things - switched to the metric system, introduced universal health care, changed the coinage, completely rewrote the tax code - a political party said they'd do it as part of their election platform, they were elected, and then it actually happened.

I see posts like this almost daily. Why do so many people bring up a point of pride about their country, and then not bother to say which country that is?

Oftentimes I'd like to read more about it, but I can't because I don't know what country to research.

Christmas tree tinsel used to be made of lead...

[Anonymous Coward]

Up to the 1960s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... I used to roll it into a ball and chew it like gum. It didn't affect me.

How about lead in adults' blood

[Trachman]

According to wikipedia, Flint is one of the most dangerous cities in the USA, with the violent crime per capita seven times higher than average? Lead can be attributed to the violence.

Also, sort of, explains why Michael Moore is acting the way he is acting, clearly lead in the water of his home town did leave an imprint.

Re:How about lead in adults' blood

[Anonymous Coward]

Or maybe violence could be attributed to the lead? Not sure if that's really a likely consequence, but it makes more sense than chemical changes in the water resulting from muggings and killing.

Re:How about lead in adults' blood

[Anonymous Coward]

Michigan doesn't seem to have anyone awake at the wheel from how it looks from afar so I very much doubt the violent crime problem is limited to Flint.
As for Moore, he hasn't really changed since his first "shockumentary", he's just got more attention at times. He may be a prick pushing a polemic, but he usually has some sort of valid point - and those who mistake them for a balanced news type documentary only have themselves to blame. I haven't seen his recent stuff because I hate being preached to like that but from what I've read about them they appear to be in the same style as all the rest - "this is why we should do something about X" instead of "balanced information about X". He has never been a journalist and has never pretended to be one, he makes films that push his point of view.

Re:How about lead in adults' blood

[Anonymous Coward]

The citizens have increased lead in the bloodstream for unknown reasons, and due to all the murders a great deal of blood enters the water supply, this then leads to the increased levels of lead in the water. See it all makes sense!

Re:Christmas tree tinsel used to be made of lead..

[Anonymous Coward]

Up to the 1960s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... I used to roll it into a ball and chew it like gum. It didn't affect me.

As far as YOU can tell...

Okay, bad, but...

[wonkey_monkey]

The proportion of infants and children with above-average levels of lead in their blood has nearly doubled since the city switched from the Detroit water system to using the Flint River as its water source, in 2014.

How much "above average"? There's probably at least one contaminant in most places that's above the national average, but that doesn't automatically mean it's something to be concerned about. I'm not saying this isn't something to be concerned about, but I'm just not quite that's the statistic to gauge it by.

Obviously the fact that the numbers used to be lower is not a great thing, but if some other town had, and had always had, 4% of kids with "elevated" (a specific amount, it seems) lead blood levels, would FEMA still be shipping in bottled water? Is 2% okay but 4% isn't? Or is it only that things have got worse that is the problem?

Re:Okay, bad, but...

[itsenrique]

There is no known safe threshold for lead exposure, unlike many other contaminants. That is not a fringe theory either, but the currently the most widely accepted position.

failure

[Khashishi]

It seems a hell of a lot easier and cheaper to test the water supply than to test the blood of people who have lived with the water supply.
How did this get missed? Was it intentionally neglected?

Re:failure

[toadlife]

Was it intentionally neglected?

Yes.

Not uncommon to have lead pipes

[Etherwalk]

I worked in a water testing lab many years ago. This lead is almost certainly coming from lead pipes and solder because the pH of the water is too low. Raising the pH to 7.5-8.5 would minimise plumbosolvency and combining that with phosphate dosing would practically eliminate it.

I don't think it's terribly uncommon to have lead supply pipes under the street, at least in older communities. Even fairly wealthy ones. At least, I've heard town plumbers in the suburbs around NYC talking about it.

Rabbits...

[freeze128]

For pets or meat.

Re:Rabbits...

[Lumpy]

Technically they are both.

Re:Christmas tree tinsel used to be made of lead..

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm totally normal... as long as I don't go near a microwave oven, then I go blank and have poopy pants.

Re:Christmas tree tinsel used to be made of lead..

[gweihir]

No surprise that you think that. Lead poisoning lowers your IQ.

Love That Right Wing!

[JimSadler]

See what happens when penny pinchers dictate smaller budgets. Now the city gets free water from the federal government. And not only do they get that benefit they also don't have to pay their kids college expenses. After drinking in all that lead college is not in those kids future. Now try and figure out the total cost of saving those pennies and how many millions upon millions will be required to restore the water system. And, by the way, why did they city not know immediately that lead was in their drinking water? Don't they run tests several times every day?

Re: Love That Right Wing!

[HornWumpus]

See what happens when idiots don't even bother reading the other comments. I know RTFA is verboten...

Re: Love That Right Wing!

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow dude, you really are ignorant trash. Take your own advice and learn a little bit about the situation before making yourself look like a complete idiot.

In homes

[Etherwalk]

According to this article, when the water leaves the treatment plant, it is lead-free (within an acceptable margin of error). The problem comes from old (ie, still being built in the 1980s) pipes that used lead solder to connect the copper. The older pipes are around the city and inside homes, and will take 15 years to replace.

The water from the river has higher levels of chloride, and chloride is corrosive to iron, which caused the lead to leach off into the water.

Anyone who thinks in-home pipes will be replaced in 15 years is being optimistic to the point of the ridiculous. They will be replaced when they break (because very few people know how to work with lead any more), but if they're behind a wall nobody will replace them until the wall has to be opened. And even then, they often won't replace more than they need that day because plumbing is so damn expensive.

Re:In homes

[phantomfive]

Not to mention pipes that go through the concrete foundation.......

Re:In homes

[ChrisMaple]

Modern indoor pipe is plastic and costs less than 50 cents per foot. This is something a homeowner can do himself, although in many places he may have to consider building code enforcement. Plumbers are expensive.

Re:In homes

[Fly Swatter]

Don't forget replacing the drywall, in an older home this may be plaster. If using pex, your plastic pipes also require special tools to attach fittings, experience REALLY helps here as you don't want to close the walls back up on plumbing done by someone that essentially learned on the job.

While this is chlorinated (?) city water in the article, if you have well water you want copper pipes for their natural anti-bacterial properties. At least I do.

Crime Rates

[Anonymous Coward]

Perfect, that will certainly help the area's crime rates. Lead is heavily linked to violence and crime. http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2013/01/lead-crime-link-gasoline

easy solution

[Anonymous Coward]

ban the children!

Statement makes no sense

[Solandri]

The proportion of infants and children with above-average levels of lead in their blood has nearly doubled

Um, by definition, half the infants and children have above-average levels of lead in their blood. Normally there's some ambiguity due to "average" possibly meaning the mean. But by stating the number is for a proportion of a group, you're defining "average" to mean median. And by definition the median is the 50th percentile, with half of the population being above the median. Once again, we have a non-technical reporter trying to report on a technical subject, and failing badly.

Reading the study itself, the percentage of children with elevated blood lead (more than 5 g/dL of lead) increased from 2.1% to 4.0%. In the worst-affected areas, it increased from 2.5% to 6.3%. Actually, I'm pretty sure that's 5 micrograms/dL, since 5 grams of lead would be a ball about 1 cm in diameter if I did my math right. The CDC limit for lead blood levels in children sets 10 ug/dL as the threshold when action should be taken. So while the increase in lead levels is notable, most kids should still be within the limits of what's considered safe. The authors of the study are contending that no amount of lead in the blood is safe, and their study is written under that premise.

Re:Statement makes no sense

[wonkey_monkey]

Um, by definition, half the infants and children have above-average levels of lead in their blood.

I thought it was obvious that the average they're referring to is the national one.

The CDC limit for lead blood levels in children [cdc.gov] sets 10 ug/dL as the threshold when action should be taken. So while the increase in lead levels is notable, most kids should still be within the limits of what's considered safe. The authors of the study are contending that no amount of lead in the blood is safe, and their study is written under that premise.

That answers what I was wondering. There are presumably plenty of other places where the levels are similarly above national average, but below the CDC limit - and I assume they're not getting any bottled water from FEMA.

Re:Statement makes no sense

[Tokolosh]

Please mod up the only sane post!

They have state regulators?

[rsilvergun]

Seriously. From what I can tell what we haven't eliminated outright we've defunded to the point where it doesn't exist anymore. It's not really a law if nobody enforces it. It's like complaining to the labor board in Arizona. There isn't one. It wasn't staffed.

Re:They have state regulators?

[Noah Haders]

starve the beast! that's what they say.

Re:They have state regulators?

[Anonymous Coward]

Welcome to drowning in the bathtub. The corroded, lead-lined bathtub.

Makes sense...

[rsilvergun]

We've been yanking funding to infrastructure since about the 80s. folks who've been talking about the consequences of that got ignored. I'm just shocked (and a little elated) to see somebody doing something in a situation like this. The increases were relatively small but obviously significant. 40,50 years ago we'd have just waited until the brain damage was done and if we were lucky something might be done about it after the fact...

Re:Makes sense...

[phantomfive]

Looks like infrastructure spending has been kind of ok.

Re:Makes sense...

[HornWumpus]

That's just the construction unions jinning up more work.

The truth is that infrastructure spending is misallocated, not too small, spent on stupid things. Usually to payoff the construction unions.

Re:Makes sense...

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure... That looks fine! /s

Your chart shows that infrastructure spending has *decreased* significantly since the late 50s/early 60s.
Federal: 40-50% decrease (Worse, if measured from the high in the late 70s.)
State/Local: ~20% decrease

It actually looks *worse* when you break it out by Captial costs (new construction) vs. Operations & Maintenance costs (keeping what we have in working condition).
http://media.economist.com/images/images-magazine/2011/04/30/us/20110430_usc609.gif

From ~1960 to 2007, operation & maintenance spending is down roughly 30%, while capital spending is down nearly 60% over the same period.
Meanwhile, we have bridges that are *literally* unsafe to drive on because funding for their maintenance has been dropped *past* minimum levels, and we've had bridge collapses which could have been prevented, except that inspections weren't being done because there was no funding for the manpower needed to do them.

Emergency replacement of crumbling infrastructure costs a *lot* more than planned replacement. Maintenance costs even less, but we're still failing to manage that. Screw *upgrades*, we can't be bothered to keep our infrastructure from rusting out from under us.

Re:Makes sense...

[phantomfive]

Your chart shows that infrastructure spending has *decreased* significantly since the late 50s/early 60s. Federal: 40-50% decrease (Worse, if measured from the high in the late 70s.) State/Local: ~20% decrease

It's decreased as a percentage of GDP, which you would expect as GDP has risen. Overall it has increased.

Not FEMA! Run!

[Anonymous Coward]

The White Folk better run because Kenyan Obama's muslim, atheist, NAZI, black-panther, weather underground, shadow-government AKA: FEMA, is gonna take them and their children off the the concentration camp. This is the beginning!

It's true, I some guy in Oklahoma toke me so on the inter-webs!

Hmmm

[DanJ_UK]

Hello, Erin Brockovich.

Sue Mother Nature

[Anonymous Coward]

Who modded this bullshit insightful? It's not; it's a deliberately ignorant rant. Nothing about this is capitalism or pollution. The river is naturally acidic (mother nature put the organics on the ground that leech tannic acid into the river) and the infrastructure has been managed by Democrats from day one.

Moonshine

[Anonymous Coward]

Kérosène is a well know additive in Moonshine; It makes is reeeeal smooooth.

Ha ha

Boxes

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah, where all the boxes are assembled.

The pollution source

[sjbe]

Shouldn't the people who polluted the river bear some of the blame?

River pollution isn't apparently the problem. The lead is in the pipes. Switching to the Flint River water apparently freed the lead into the system. But don't let that get in the way of a good anti-capitalist rant.

Averages!

[Tokolosh]

Few people appreciate this, but 50% of Americans are of below-average intelligence. And 50% have above-average lead levels, regardless of water source.

The only question is whether they are the same people.

BTW, when I immigrated to America, the average IQs of both my home country and that of the US increased!

Lead piping

[Anonymous Coward]

And suddenly we know why there are so many criminals there.

Back to the 1930s!

[Anonymous Coward]

In the 1930s all the children in my father's class has hair samples taken and sent in to a government lab at intervals to test for arsenic. We are moving backwards to those same levels of pollution that we ridicule the third world for.

If anyone's wondering

[rsilvergun]

"Starve the Beast" is a political strategy where you cut taxes, borrow money to make up for your short falls and then demand cuts in government to solve the debt problem.

Re:If anyone's wondering

[Noah Haders]

you think i dont know that?

Blame the Victim

[Princeofcups]

Slashdot, look at yourself. These comments are a horrible example of blaming the victim. Step back and look at the history of the area. Don't just focus on the chemistry of the problem.

Re:Blame the Victim

[Anonymous Coward]

Yep, they are blaming the state government when it had to step in to fix the mess the locals made. Gets the bill AND the blame.

The locals got the government they deserve. The state should have let the locals fail. See how they liked well water.

in 1964,The Flint river was declared too polluted.

[Anonymous Coward]

And pulled out as source of drinkable water.That was due to car industries dumping all byproducts in it.
Flint is the manufacturing base of General Motors.

2015 Nike Free Running Pas Cher

[zenyemen]

of the Chinese team in the former Soviet Union and Cuba have been lost after the third nike Free Run .The Chinese women's volleyball team is still in the next two years running in place gradually, but still the door in 1990 for the 6th World Championships and 1991 World Cup competition in two unsuccessful red crown, but also objectively reflect the two runner-up China's women's volleyball team's overall strength is not related to the peak of the Cuban team was now far away. The thought that under the leadership of Hu Jin stable performance for three consecutive years in the 1992 Barcelona Olympic Games has been After this race, Kyaw Min Yu, positioning the current level of Chinese women's volleyball ranked only 10th place in the world, from the original Seoul lost crown to the '80s and '90s are the worst people can not accept the eighth, but this can slide to 10 of its Chennai geometry, the strength of backward women's volleyball has become a reality, which of course there are institutional reasons and mechanisms, but since reduced to such a situation, Zhongguopaixie and Kyaw Min Yu, also including all the team members to address this as soon as possible.

Passed Through Flint in the Spring

[Dr. Evil]

Had the coney fries, actually an awesome little place.

I mean the coney place is awesome. The town's got rough edges.

Poor people living in run-down housing is about right. Nothing *wrong* with that, as long as they don't get too run down. Right?

I'd stop there again.

I once lived in Flint

[Anonymous Coward]

I think there is a very basic point that most people are missing here and this is the true story of Flint. I spent some time living there, so I know a thing or two about this. Flint was once a beautiful city. It was the headquarters of GM. It was a very union town and everybody lived well because of union negotiated wages and benefits. Everybody there also bought GM. You wouldn't be caught dead in that town with anything but a GM vehicle, let alone a foreign made vehicle. GM also did well as it had a lot of brand loyalty.

One day the GM execs decided to brake the unions by pulling out of Flint. This hurt GM a lot because their newly foreign made quality was total crap and all of the regular working folk ardently promoting and buying GM went away in total dismay. So GM went on a long decline and eventually ended up in bankruptcy and Flint never recovered from this pullout as it was a blue collar GM town and didn't know how to do anything else. Also the city spent all of its money on evictions spurned on by the banks, but then there were no taxpayers left in town because no jobs and thus no workers making money to pay taxes with. So then of course the city goes bankrupt and can't support basic things like police and so rift-raft move in turning whole sections of the once beautiful city into an extremely crime ridden horror show.

So that is the truth of the matter from someone who once lived there. Of course most people just believe whatever fits into their narrative.

Re:I once lived in Flint

[phaggood]

Documentarians, grab your camera so you can watch the same thing happen in FoxCon-town when it moves to Indonesia. Unless China has a plan....

Surprised that Detroit water is better than other

[Anonymous Coward]

Very surprising considering that Detroit was passed over by Bethesda as the city for Fallout 4. It was rejected for being too damaged to be realistic as a post-nuclear war city.

Sheesh

[Anonymous Coward]

Flint Michigan is a disastrous mess. And who's been in charge of running things in Flint? Oh, yeah, that's right, liberals. Here's a dose of reality for you peeps blaming Republicans:

"Government
Main article: Government of Flint, Michigan
See also: Mayor of the City of Flint, Michigan
The City is currently in a financial receivership having ended the financial emergency on April 30, 2015, that saw the city under an Emergency Manager as the State of Michigan has declared a state of local government financial emergency. The Receivership Transition Advisory Board has the authority to override council decisions in financial matters."

"Politics
Most politicians are affiliated with the Democratic party despite the city's elections being nonpartisan. In 2006, Flint was the 10th most liberal city in the United States, according to a nationwide study by the non-partisan Bay Area Center for Voting Research which examined the voting patterns of 237 cities with a population over 100,000. Flint placed just after San Francisco (9) and before Seattle (16) and New York City (21)."

Who were the Mayors in Flint? ~2002-2015: Don Williamson and Dayne Walling. Spend some time (if you have a lot of time to waste) Googling them and their associated riffraff, and what will you find? All Liberal Democrats.

A More Local View

[Cardcaptor_RLH85]

So, I grew up in Flint and still live in the area (though outside of the city itself now) and I just wanted to provide another viewpoint on this.

Over the last couple decades, Detroit has been raising the rates for water it sells to other communities. Many communities in Genesee county purchased water from Detroit by way of a pipeline owned by the city of Flint. These communities decided that they'd had enough, set up a new water authority, and went about getting state approval to build their own pipeline to Lake Huron for water since, in the long run, it'd be much less expensive than continuing to buy from Detroit. This pipeline is scheduled for completion in June 2016 (it's even slightly ahead of schedule right now due to unseasonably good weather).

The problem with that is, Flint's most recent contract for water from Detroit ran out in April 2014. At that time, both Flint and Detroit were run by Emergency Financial Managers appointed by the Governor and Detroit was in bankruptcy causing a conflict of interest for the state. Did Michigan want to strengthen Detroit's financial position by forcing Flint to continue buying water from them at a dramatically increased rate? Or, did the state allow Flint to switch to the Flint River as a water source for about 27 months to save money? The state, through its financial manager, decided to switch Flint to Flint River water in the interim.

Here is where the real trouble starts. There's evidence that the state informed Flint's mayor about the need for testing and possibly the adding of anti-corrosives to the water to keep it from leaching lead from pipework but, this information wasn't given to the EFM (who was actually in both executive and legislative control at the time) and it seems strange that said information wouldn't also be sent to whoever was running the actual water system. As I said before, I don't live in the city anymore so I don't tend to watch its politics all that closely now but, I do know that the city council voted to reconnect to Detroit's water system after Detroit made a more sensible offer concerning the price of said connection but, the vote was ignored by the EFM. The mayor at the time was voted out of office last month, primarily over this debacle, and I heard from my brother that the new mayor was on MSNBC last night talking about this situation.

In the meantime, Flint has reconnected to Detroit for its water supply (which they have to pay even more for since they sold the connecting pipeline to the county since the surrounding communities never switched away from Detroit in the first place), rates have gone up (my mother's bill tops $100 every month with minimal usage), and everybody is hoping that the city's water infrastructure wasn't too damaged by the corrosive river water since Flint's treatment plant is supposed to be used for everyone once the pipeline is finished.

Fall of Rome

[DarthVain]

Wasn't this postulated as one of the contributing factors that lead to the fall of the Roman Empire?