US Bureau of Labor Statistics: Programmer Jobs Will Decline 8% (computerworld.com)

theodp writes: Two weeks ago, as the nation's schools 'taught kids to program' with an Hour of Code, Microsoft and others celebrated a 6-year lobbying effort that culminated in the passage of legislation that made Computer Science a core K-12 subject, which the software giant said "will advance some of the goals outlined in Microsoft's National Talent Strategy." But on Tuesday, Computerworld reported that the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics has put somewhat of a buzzkill on the learn-to-code party, saying IT jobs will grow 12% over the next decade, although computer programmers will see an 8% decline. "Computer programming can be done from anywhere in the world, so companies sometimes hire programmers in countries where wages are lower," explained the government. The silver lining is that software developers, the largest occupational group in IT, will increase by 17% or 186,600, over this period. The nomenclature here is a little muddy, since "programmers" and "software developers" are often used interchangeably. Here's how they're distinguished in this article: "Programmers are focused on coding and implementing requirements, and that’s why they may be more susceptible to offshoring, in contrast to software developers who may be more engaged with the business, analyzing needs and collaborating with multiple parties."

Comments

Programming is for Cows

[Anonymous Coward]

You are all cows. Cows say Mooo. Mooo! Mooo! Mooo Cows Mooo. Moooo say the programming cows. YOU DECLINING COWS!!!

Re:Programming is for Cows

[kheldan]

No, Sexconker, it's the H1-B workers who are cash cows for asshole U.S. corporations who keep firing U.S. workers and hiring them, so they can make more money off of destroying the middle class in this country.

You are all foreign cows. Mooo, MOOO go the H1-B cows!

Re:Programming is for Cows

[Spy Handler]

No, Sexconker, it's the H1-B workers who are cash cows for asshole U.S. corporations who keep firing U.S. workers and hiring them, so they can make more money off of destroying the middle class in this country.

This is why you must vote for Bernie (if you're a liberal) or Trump (if you're a conservative). Clinton, Bush and Rubio want exactly the same thing which is to make their corporate masters richer while gutting the middle class. When Disney was laying off their entire IT department and forcing them to train their H1B replacement workers, whose campaign do you think Disney was funding? Hillary and Jeb's. Not Bernie or Trump: Disney hates these guys.

Re:Programming is for Cows

[Anonymous Coward]

There's nothing Conservative about Trump. He represents the dysfunction present in the most bigoted of the Conservatives, but has no positive qualities.

Re:Programming is for Cows

[Opportunist]

That's blatantly untrue. He's funny. And has a great hairpiece.

Re:Programming is for Cows

[kheldan]

At the rate things are going, I won't even bother to register to vote, let alone vote for any of them, because I don't think any of them are either qualified, or represent my interests.

Re:Programming is for Cows

[DigiShaman]

For that matter, there's nothing Conservative about the GOP. Fuck that K-Street boy Paul Ryan!

Trump is many things, but he's NOT establishment.

Re:Programming is for Cows

[Anonymous Coward]

Amen to that. I was pulling my hair out during the last presidential installation cycle when the RNC was killing Jon Huntsman and Ron Paul by literally breaking laws, rigging the debates (DIAF, Bret Baier), and replacing them with mittens and Paul Ryan. I still remember one Republican chick saying, "Oh, I like Paul Ryan. He's young. He just seems like a leader." She, of course, had a couple of grad degrees and a few years under her belt.
 
Our species is doomed.

Re:Programming is for Cows

[Anonymous Coward]

Thank you! So tired of seeing H1B's support their own scabbiness. It's all good until someone does it to you!

Re:Programming is for Cows

[Anonymous Coward]

And you are an asshole consumer who wants to ship goods in from foreign countries rather than pay fair local prices.

You don't agree? Because that is exactly the same position that the "asshole U.S. corporations" are in...wanting to ship labor in from foreign countries rather than pay fair local prices.

Face it, you feel entitled to your job, and think that foreign workers should not be allowed to compete against you for it even if they can do the same job for cheaper. You want protectionism, and you don't want the corporations to have the same protections.

Regardless of who is winning this tug-of-war, and regardless of the consequences, you want the same things the corporations want.

Re:Programming is for Cows

[TsuruchiBrian]

This is why you must vote for Bernie (if you're a liberal) or Trump (if you are scared of mexicans and muslims).

Trump doesn't give a shit about anything but his own ego. All he cares about is that the spotlight is on him. He'll do anything and say anything to keep that going. If I was going to compare Trump to anyone on the democrat side it would be Hillary. He's just a weather vane. Granted he's a better weather vane than Hillary, but that's all he is.

Re:Programming is for Cows

[TsuruchiBrian]

For that matter, there's nothing Conservative about the GOP.

Sure there is. They are pro-life and anti-gay. Those are pretty conservative positions.

Re:Programming is for Cows

[Anonymous Coward]

What a load of rubbish. People will pay fair local prices if they can afford to, and/or if they have no choice - but of course they want cheaper foreign stuff because they can.

Also, American corporations are not suffering from high labor costs. They are squeezing the middle class because they want more profit. Wages have been stagnant (adjusted for inflation) for 40 years. Benefits and perks are practically nonexistent. Meanwhile profits and productivity are higher than ever, but the gains all went to the top 20%. So please spare us the "we can't afford American labor" whining.

(captcha: diarrhea)

Re:Programming is for Cows

[Anonymous Coward]

There are more than just those people running. What you're saying is that you're too lazy to care who gets chosen, that you're fine with anyone, including those people. You can submit a blank ballot (never tried that on an electronic voting machine before...) or vote for some obscure person. Not doing one of those two things means you support everyone else. That needs repeating:

NOT VOTING MEANS YOU'RE SUPPORTING EVERYONE YOU DON'T WANT ELECTED.

Get off your lazy ass and vote.

Re:Programming is for Cows

[kheldan]

Get off your lazy ass and vote.

Listen, asshole: If you don't get a statement meant to convey APATHY when you see it, then you're probably not very clever, so STFU.

Re:Programming is for Cows

[Anonymous Coward]

Fuck you, asshole, because I can't fucking buy ANYTHING at ANY price if I can't even get a GODDAMNED JOB because some fatass 1%er decides his profit margin is more important than the entire country he lives in, and YOU are probably one of the goddamned cheap-ass unskilled undereducated H1-B jackasses who get imported over here to put better educated, experienced U.S. workers out of a job, and then you send your money back overseas so it doesn't benefit even the local economy any, so how about you shove it up your ass and go back to your shithole 3rd world country?

Re:Programming is for Cows

[mysidia]

This is why you must vote for Bernie (if you're a liberal) or Trump (if you're a conservative).

I want to vote for the guy that supports doing away with the two party system, reduces all terms for elected officials by 50%, creates an Instant voter recall process for all offices, Changes the law so that An independent commission has to approve all salary increases for members of congress/senate based on reviews of individual performance, sets a 12 year career limit for politicians (Cumulative number of years in House/Senate), mandates that all elections be proportional representation based on popular vote Instant Runoff Voting, AND Restricts public access to congressional votes as necessary, in order to conceal from/prevent special interest groups from discovering whether or not specific members of congress voted for or against their special interest.

(In other words, do away with the excessive bit of transparecy that enables this pathological situation of representatives cowtowing....)

I am torn between Bernie/Trump, because no candidate really serves us. I am Pro Economic Liberty, I am against Institutionalized Theft or Tyranny of the majority, AND Pro-Personal-Freedom.

The Democrat party claims to support personal liberty, but then members go off and favor bullshit like "Gun Control.", And Health Care "Reform" that renders more people UNinsured than before; their members don't do a thing to counter privacy violations by the feds, they do nothing to reign in abuses by the TSA and the IRS "investigating" groups because if their political ideas... The Republican party claims to support economic liberty, but then they allow injustices like Absurd government spending, their party members in Congress lack the fortitude to actually act on their convictions and do what's necessary, they let Perpetual Copyright Extension slide, they do nil about Civil Forfeiture abuses, Patent System Abuses, and more, to go on and on, without lifting a finger.

Also, I feel both parties are highly hypocritical, and lately, all the representatives of both major parties seem to be cowards.

Otherwise... Please explain why Obama is so impotent and incompetent when dealing with important issues, and yet, nobody will stand up to him, not even members of the opposing party?

Re:Programming is for Cows

[mysidia]

He represents the dysfunction present in the most bigoted of the Conservatives

I think the "conservatives" in government may be closet liberals. The congress do not even attempt major strides when they have a majority. They support the other party by yielding to them.

Re:Programming is for Cows

[jareth-0205]

At the rate things are going, I won't even bother to register to vote, let alone vote for any of them, because I don't think any of them are either qualified, or represent my interests.

I think you'll find that is actually interpreted as "I'm happy for any of them to represent me".

Re:Programming is for Cows

[kheldan]

I find it surprising that some of you don't recognize apathy and hyperbole when you see it. Will I vote for someone? Yes. Will I like it? Highly unlikely, I think every single last one of them is a jackass in one way or another. Also, I reject your entire premise, I don't want ANY of them 'representing' me. I'd just as soon that they all were on the same plane at the same time, and the plane crashes and kills them all; the country would probably be better off in the long run. That being said where is my 'none of the above/no confidence' check-box on the ballot? I think we desperately need one, so we can toss the lot of them out, and repeat the whole process until we get down to someone who may not be able to run fast enough to escape being elected, but that won't be a total jackass. If such a person exists. While I'm at it I'll close my eyes and wish real, real hard that Santa Claus actually does exist, and that magic is real, because that's about as likely to happen too.

Re:Programming is for Cows

[kheldan]

..oh, and one more thing, before you even say it: yes, I'm angry, and if you're not angry at the political mess in this country right now? Then I have to wonder why.

Re:Programming is for Cows

[jareth-0205]

Well, I don't live in your country, so probably better that I don't express my opinion.

Re:Programming is for Cows

[jareth-0205]

Problem with having "None the above" is it doesn't actually lead to any sort of clear action. Like, what are you actually going to do with that figure... say 30% vote "None" and gets more votes than any other candidate. What then? You keep the old guy? You have nothing at all and plead for someone else to stand? What happens in the meantime?

I see alot of (justified) anger or apathy, but never any clear (realistic) suggestion of what to do about it. The suggestions range from "shoot them all" to "we should re-think democracy and wouldn't it be, mm, nicer if we all just, mm, got along and came to agreement", but none actually get down to the issue of how do you command a leadership of millions of people.

Re:Programming is for Cows

[KGIII]

I vote. I have for 40 years. I vote third party - even if I don't want 'em to win. Why? I know that they're not going to win. However, if I do it long enough and enough people do it with me then the number crunchers are eventually going to notice. Then, and only then, will we have a chance at a third party candidate and *maybe* break this two-party system a little bit.

I might be a Libertarian but my party hasn't fielded an electable presidential candidate, well, ever... I'll vote Green/Independent, Socialist, Communist, Satanist, or even for a friggen dog. I'm not scared. It's not like they're going to win. But, eventually, there will be enough of us who are sick of the shit and stop voting for the two major parties and we can actually consider getting some true representative democracy going.

But no... Nobody listens to a David. I don't have pithy sayings suited best for bumper stickers. I'll probably be dead before this happens but I'm patient.

Re:Programming is for Cows

[KGIII]

I'm clearly not a Republican or a Democrat and I'm not white. Sadly, I had to add that. Why? To answer your question in your last sentence. This is just an observation, but...

They tried. They got called racists.

Re:Programming is for Cows

[Anonymous Coward]

they tuk er jerbs!!

Re:Programming is for Cows

[HornWumpus]

I had to look up you comment history.

Too bad you aren't consistent.

Re:Programming is for Cows

[kheldan]

I'm not Libertarian, even if I've been told I have leanings in that direction.. but I also have some leanings in all directions; I'm registered as Independent (and sometimes as 'None of the above', and then I leave the line blank, just to thumb my nose at the whole thing and make someone wonder about it). More than once I've considered voting for some third-party candidate, but there's a problem with that: I know damned well that someone, somewhere, is keeping track of who is voting for whom, and if I vote for someone who is running as, say, Libertarian, then my vote is saying "I agree with everything this candidate stands for", which may or may not be true -- and you have to admit, some of the third-party candidates, very often, are bigger whack-jobs than Republican or Democrat candidates. I'd have to do tons of background research on any of them just to make sure that there isn't some gigantic red flag on them, like they believe in pederasty, or plural marriage, or has been associated with some seditionist militia, or whatever, that would end up with me on some FBI watchlist.

On the off-chance this guy is reading this: Having a 'None of the Above' choice on a ballot, would serve as a vote of 'No Confidence' in any of the candidates on the ballot, and if the majority votes 'None of the Above', then all the candidates would be disqualified, and the campaign process starts all over again, with and entirely different set of candidates; the person currently occupying the office being elected for would continue on an interim basis, until someone the majority can agree on actually gets elected. It would reduce the 'lesser of many evils' problem of elections.

Re:Programming is for Cows

[KGIII]

Your vote should not be associated, in any way, with your name. It should be truly anonymous. If it isn't then you have bigger problems. Where I vote, it's not an issue. It's paper ballots still. ;-) Complete with a big, locked, wooden box that was probably built back in the 1940s or something.

Anyhow, you probably fit one of the many schools of Libertarianism. I believe we've interacted enough to know that I'm actually (mostly) sane and I'm a Libertarian. There are *many* different schools within the Party. I am kind of surprised but the Wikipedia article is not bad. It's worth a look, if you're interested.

I'm a Classic Libertarian (self-titled, I can do that) as I find it simpler to say than to express my displeasure at Randians and Republicans. I'm fairly close to what is known as a Socialist Libertarian. In fact, much of my ideals would indicate that I'm a socialist except I'm not. Unlike Socialists, I used reason and logic to reach my conclusions - as opposed to emoting my way to a decision.

I've got a minute, I'll give you an example or two...

I have my key hanging outside my house door, if you know where to look for it. I'm many miles away but, strangely enough, no one has stolen anything though I often have friends who make use of my game room while I am not home. Some even make use of my garage to work on their own vehicles. Why? Well, I have insurance. I'd rather you use a key than break the door down and steal my stuff.

I support single-payer health care. Why? It's cheaper to prevent than it is to cure. It's cheaper to buy in bulk. Healthy people can, now that I mostly just invest, make me more money than sick people can. Healthy people can pay more in taxes and keep the government going along at a better pace than normal.

I support inexpensive, perhaps State funded (in certain areas and with caveats) higher learning. Why? An educated populous is a more innovative populous and staying ahead of the game is essential if we wish to improve or maintain our station in life.

See, I don't think people "deserve" those things. In fact, just the opposite. I think they don't deserve them but they should have access to them simply because it makes us more likely to succeed, acquire wealth, acquire power, and to be able to act on our liberties more easily. The more wealth you have, the easier it is to be free. The more assets you have, the more likely you can enjoy the liberties you have. ;-) You'd probably fit, fairly well, under the Libertarian tent for it is broad and welcoming. Me? I'm usually trying to be logical (which also includes emoting) and try to base my beliefs on logic and reason. I am a Libertarian because that's who I am. I am not a Libertarian because that's what the party is. I am, for the most part, really an Independent as I'm not one to strictly insist on a party line - I am not a zealot. However, it's "close enough" but has the varied caveats.

Re:Programming is for Cows

[Anonymous Coward]

...if by "they", you mean Rick Santorum and Scalia.

The rest of the Republicans couldn't care less.

Re:Programming is for Cows

[kheldan]

Your vote should not be associated, in any way, with your name.

In a perfect world, yes, however..

It should be truly anonymous. If it isn't then you have bigger problems.

That's the thing: I trust the federal U.S. government (or to be fair, various parts of it; otherwise it's like saying 'all Chinese are bad' or 'all Muslims are bad' when what you mean to say is 'the Chinese government is mostly bad' and 'some so-called Muslims are bad, but they're only Muslims in name, not in actions') about as far as I can throw it. Various three-letter agencies are up to their elbows in data collected on natural-born U.S. citizens, demonstrably so, so I assume that they're getting into who is voting for who and what, as data to add to their 'profiling' capabilities.

I'll have to read your comment more carefully later on and do some research.. but I'll be honest with you, I hate being 'categorized' and pigeon-holed, which is the smaller part I don't usually mention about why I don't consort with any political party. Eventually they all do something that rubs me the wrong way.

Re:Programming is for Cows

[KGIII]

Then, by all means, remain Independent. That doesn't mean you wouldn't be welcomed under the Libertarian tent. Hell, we've got a bunch of Republicans under the tent already (they're not really welcome but we can't just kick 'em out). So, it's not like the label really matters.

I'd like to convince them to leave but I'd never kick them out. Once upon a time we were recognized as being the crazy leftist party. Somehow, we've become the crazy rightist party - at least in perception. I suspect it's that we've let anyone with a voice and a microphone speak for us and it'd be a bit awkward if we didn't. I do wish they'd form parties with more accurate names as many of them aren't the least bit concerned with liberty and seem inclined to put business interests in front of the individual or commons.

It's things like that which make me remember that Serenity Prayer thing that the drunks say. I just strip out the word God and I'm good to go.

Re:Programming is for Cows

[kheldan]

we've got a bunch of Republicans under the tent already

You know, if that means they're not backing Trump, then it's worth whatever you might have to bear, in my opinion. Trump is an extinction-level event for humanity just waiting to happen. The only good thing he's made happen is he's brought the real hardcore racists, bigots, and wingnuts come out of the shadows, so we know who all of them are now.

I'll still go re-read some text on libertarianism in it's various flavors, and (attempt to) vet the candidates under that flag. I think it's time for me to get off the fence, anyway. What I always say is, "If what you're doing doesn't work, try something else, repeat until success". There will be some facets of my personality that will still cluck their tongue at me for 'wasting' a perfectly good vote, but on the other hand, I'll at least feel like my hands are clean; when whoever it is in the White House does something monumentally stupid, I'll be able to put up my hands and say "Hey, I didn't vote for so-and-so, don't blame me!".

Re:Programming is for Cows

[jareth-0205]

Heh, that is true.

Re:Programming is for Cows

[euroq]

For that matter, there's nothing Conservative about the GOP.

This is a perfect instance of changing the facts to fit your views. Nobody likes inconvenient truths; that's not a right- or left-wing thing. The facts and evidence say that the GOP is Conservative.

Re:Programming is for Cows

[euroq]

We're stuck in a two-party system. I don't believe we'll ever get out of it in our lifetime, unless something catastrophic happens.

Re:Programming is for Cows

[euroq]

YOU ARE PRO BOLD.

Re: Programming is for Cows

[Anonymous Coward]

It would break term limits and is illegal even on an interim basis

Re: Programming is for Cows

[Anonymous Coward]

He is having fun. Bettering his brand recognition too. But we have lots of sociopaths running. Why settle for he-thought-he-was? But if he is scripted then I am greatly impressed.

Re: Programming is for Cows

[Anonymous Coward]

Two party? Can u name both. We in a one party system with 2 different 'wings' pretending to have differences on topics such as abortion or immigration, while the real issues are ignored (debt timebomb, constant undeclared unconstitutional wars, supporting foreign dictators and funding terrorists, loss of liberties, militarized police state, surveillance). All the issues that actually matter are treated the same way by both wings of the 1 party.

Short term: change title from programmer to dev

[xxxJonBoyxxx]

Short term, I guess its time for any remaining "programmers" to change their titles to "developers"...which is probably what's really driving the "growth."

>> software developers who may be more engaged with the business, analyzing needs and collaborating with multiple parties

In other words, don't ever let anyone figure out what exactly you do, and make sure you're attending more meetings than actually working. Mission accomplished!

Re:Short term: change title from programmer to dev

[gstoddart]

Long term, get the hell out of tech, and stop giving your employers any loyalty ... because they'll drop you like a hot turd the moment they can.

But, then, we've pretty much all known this teaching all kids to code was a self-serving thing to get them more cheap labor.

Got kids you want to be gainfully employed? Get them into a trade like an electrician, welder, or plumber.

Tech is being gutted to the lowest bidder. So all of these years of saying tech jobs were the way of the future ... well, so long, suckers.

Re:Short term: change title from programmer to dev

[U2xhc2hkb3QgU3Vja3M]

Tech jobs were the way of the future until technology itself, created by those tech jobs, allowed companies to hire people overseas for those same jobs.

Re:Short term: change title from programmer to dev

[Anonymous Coward]

So Software Developers are now managers? lol...

Re:Short term: change title from programmer to dev

[beelsebob]

No, software developers are people who are more than just code monkeys. They are people who can understand requirements, design things, and develop the entire architecture, rather than just bashing out a program.

Re:Short term: change title from programmer to dev

[Anonymous Coward]

I didn't go into the traders, but I get the hell out of tech. Worked for 11 years as a dev, saw the writing on the wall and left. Now I'm a PharmD, making the same money, never have to work overtime and can land a job anywhere in the country.

Fuck the silicon valley rat race.

Re:Short term: change title from programmer to dev

[Tokolosh]

I thought this was about "engineers". My bad.

Oh, developers https://youtu.be/Vhh_GeBPOhs

Re:Short term: change title from programmer to dev

[jonnyj]

Tech jobs are only one way of using programming skills.

When kids learn to code, they learn to think algorithmically. They learn to break down problems into smaller, easier to define sub-problems. They learn to construct models. They learn to apply numerical methods to problem evaluation. They learn about the relationship between inputs and outputs, cause and effect. They get to explore feedback mechanisms, hysteresis, system complexity and instability.

These are highly desirable workplace skills in a wide range of occupations. Physicists, bankers, data scientists, pricing specialists, marketing consultants, accountants (the list is endless) all benefit from the analytical mind of a someone who understands how to code.

Re:Short term: change title from programmer to dev

[Anonymous Coward]

LOL. "The writing on the wall"? You left to fill pill bottles at CVS? I hate to break it to you, but drugstores are cutting back on you people. Smart career move. Enjoy those pill bottles!

Re:Short term: change title from programmer to dev

[Opportunist]

Go where the money is. If management is what you want to pay me for, I'll be a manager. How hard can it be to pretend I know what I'm talking about despite not having any clue?

Re:Short term: change title from programmer to dev

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

An actual pharmacist still needs to sign on the bottom line as a professional for pill delivery.

One could argue this is needless government-required cost (especially when it could be replaced by pre-filled bottles, cheaper) but it will be there for the forseeable future.

Re:Short term: change title from programmer to dev

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't work at CVS, but they hire every pharmacy graduate they can get. I work as a clinical PharmD in a hospital.

Re:Short term: change title from programmer to dev

[Chrisq]

Go where the money is. If management is what you want to pay me for, I'll be a manager. How hard can it be to pretend I know what I'm talking about despite not having any clue?

Actually its difficult for a lot of people. To say with complete confidence "we know that the future is sub-prime lending" or "stock markets will keep going up, we've seen the end of boom and bust" is very difficult for anyone who understands empirical methods, basic probability, and so on. It is also something that anyone with a conscience would feel bad doing (unless they really believe it).

Re:Short term: change title from programmer to dev

[Registered Coward v2]

An actual pharmacist still needs to sign on the bottom line as a professional for pill delivery.

One could argue this is needless government-required cost (especially when it could be replaced by pre-filled bottles, cheaper) but it will be there for the forseeable future.

The real value in a pharmacist is recognizing drug interactions and unusual doses / prescriptions as a second check against the prescribing doctor; which is why it is important to get prescriptions filled at one place, which ensures the pharmacist has a complete list of your meds to evaluate. Yes, a computer could do the same checking and is a good tool for notifying the pharmacist who can then check with the doctor and patient to ensure the prescription is correct and safe. In addition, I think we will see pharmacists being able to prescribe certain drugs as part of their license or work with NP's to prescribe; reducing the cost of treatment by cutting out a doctor visit.

Re:Short term: change title from programmer to dev

[ranton]

I don't work at CVS, but they hire every pharmacy graduate they can get. I work as a clinical PharmD in a hospital.

It doesn't really matter if you work for drug stores or not, your employment is still affected by the same market forces as the PharmDs who do work at CVS. This is because if their industry is disrupted, more of those workers will move to hospitals and drive down wages there.

Government regulations are the only thing that can save pharmacist jobs over the next decade or two. Filling the correct pills into bottles and checking for drug interactions are two tasks modern AI systems already excel at, and continue to improve at. Government regulations will continue requiring pharmacists to work at pharmacies for a while, but as health care costs continue to spiral up costs will start to be cut. An $18 pharmacy tech can do almost everything a pharmacist can do with computer support. Give technology another 10 years and that will change to literally everything a pharmacist can do.

After doing software development for a large pharmaceutical distributor and manufacturer of pill dispensing machinery, I came to realize pharmacists are the #1 job in health care that computer automation will get rid of. Software developers have an order of magnitude more secure job than a PharmD.

Re:Short term: change title from programmer to dev

[Darinbob]

Or just become useful. The problem is that so many programming jobs, in IT especially, are cookie-cutter. Anyone who can program can fill the role with minimal training. No degree or experience necessary, just present a certificate. But change it up a bit and it is very difficult to offshore the job. Know the math as well as programming, you'll be much more likely to keep your job even if your job is more difficult than moving around a box on a web page. Know the physics too, or the business, or the EE, or the economics, or whatever it is that the company actually *does*. In embedded systems learn how the system works, learn the hardware, learn the OS. Overall work together with the designers instead of sitting passively waiting for some bite sized pieces of programming assignments to filter down. Yes this is harder for junior level employees but that's also the best time to flex some mental muscles and learn new stuff, volunteer for projects, and make sure the boss thinks of you as more than adequate.

And just by saying "tech" you dumb it down because tech is already dumbed down. Call it engineering or development or product creation, just call it anything other than something that can be done after a semester at a trade school.

Re:Short term: change title from programmer to dev

[TsuruchiBrian]

I started as a software developer and because of this, knew that my role would be engaging more with the business, analyzing needs, and collaborating with multiple parties. Programmers just follow requirements. I do my own thing, especially when the requirements are stupid.

Re:Short term: change title from programmer to dev

[umghhh]

Most brogrammers I know have missed on most of the abilities you listed. This is true for the cheap ones and for the expensive ones too. There are some in both classes that do have them and can deploy them appropriately. This is the minority. Not sure whether there is any pattern to be had here other than most humans are unintelligent apes and some are intelligent but still apes.

Re:Short term: change title from programmer to dev

[Darinbob]

I've been programming for 30 years, and only at the start was I in anything I call a "tech" job. Granted the term is flexible and vague but it mostly seems to imply working with technology without having to know how it actually works - pushing buttons on a black box, following the script from the certification course, thinking inside the box.

There's been a disturbing trend recently about minimizing the amount of effort necessary to get a job. Taking the fewest classes, skipping the hard classes, skipping school altogether, etc. I think every single class I ever took in university has been useful in real life, even if in an abstract way (by learning how to think and exercise the brain), and for sure every single computer science class I ever took has been practical on the job including theory. Taking shortcuts does not help in the long run, so why settle for being no better than anyone in an low wage offshore firm?

For the programming at younger ages, like high school, I get the impression that these are extremely dumbed down and are more oriented towards trade school type stuff. No theory, programming only in a popular language, the programming involves tying together existing components without knowing how those components work. I'd love it if they tought numerical methods, whether high school or college, because I see too many programmers who don't understand even the rudimentary parts of it. I'd be happy if they really taught algorithms and not how to make a web page.

Re:Short term: change title from programmer to dev

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll enjoy my 220k/year salary being a dev in San Francisco, you can enjoy being a welder.

Re:Short term: change title from programmer to dev

[Darinbob]

Has anyone ever outsourced a major product that requires a fair amount of thinking and interaction with the home team to an offshore firm and gotten good results? Maybe it works for web pages, e-commerce, and IT, but not for building a real product. You wouldn't want a medical device surgically implanted in you if it was developed by the cheapest workers with minimal schooling using the lowest bidder for parts, so why trust a company's future to the same thing?

Re:Short term: change title from programmer to dev

[scamper_22]

The only thing you can say with complete confidence is get a job with the government.

If it ever goes down... well the whole society has collapsed anyways.

Re:Short term: change title from programmer to dev

[Anonymous Coward]

"An $18 pharmacy tech can do almost everything a pharmacist can "

Can the pharmacy tech talk to a worried mom about any one of an uncountable number of different medication or healthcare questions?

A PharmD isn't a real doctor, but they are how lot closer to be one than even an experienced technician for most questions. Sure for sure certain questions, a certain technician may have as good as or even better understanding than the pharmacist. example: A young female technician might know an answer on OTC pregnancy testing question better than a male pharmacist. But that is the exception.

The PharmD isn't exactly a stable profession. An oversupply of pharmacists and a changing market place. The PharmD doesn't have the clout of doctor's have with the AMA that has protected that profession by limiting the supply of MD's by limiting the number of med school graduates and residency/board certification, but even that is being eroded by the mid level practitioners ( physician assistants and nurse practionioners ).

Re:Short term: change title from programmer to dev

[ranton]

Can the pharmacy tech talk to a worried mom about any one of an uncountable number of different medication or healthcare questions?

Anything that can be done from behind a counter can be done from a computer terminal. Very little of a pharmacist's time is spend doing this, so I doubt it would even take 1 pharmacists per 10 pharmacies to cover this type of interaction. Asking pharmacy techs and self-serve QA portals can cover most questions. Almost all questions I hear from people while waiting in line are insurance related, not medication related.

Sure you lose a bit of human touch this way, but what else is new? How easy is it to get human operators when calling customer service these days? If the technology is capable of handling 90% of interactions, companies won't care about human touch when they can cut out a majority of their payroll costs.

Re:Short term: change title from programmer to dev

[mysidia]

Short term, I guess its time for any remaining "programmers" to change their titles to "developers"

My title is Software Engineer.......... not only should I get to avoid the 8% decline in programming... But the expected 0% growth in EE, as well, by having 'Software' in the name, instead of Electrical.

Re:Short term: change title from programmer to dev

[mysidia]

Tech jobs are only one way of using programming skills.

Also, if you advance your computer science knowledge sufficiently enough, you are no longer "just a programmer"

E.g. If you become an expert in machine learning and big data, and the huge body of knowledge in the AI field. Your expertise is not necessarily reproducible by some random guy overseas, even if they are more skilled at programming in general, there is still a problem domain in which they cannot compete against you.

Re:Short term: change title from programmer to dev

[Opportunist]

Realize that all you really damage is a corporation, and that the people higher up in the chain do the same, just for more money and far more efficiently. Then that consciousness is no longer an issue.

Re:Short term: change title from programmer to dev

[rtb61]

Kids learning, http://www.vox.com/2015/12/15/..., seriously, there is a world of delusion going on out their and there is a whole US town, where children will be learning bugger all and become criminals through no fault of their own. The biggest hit will be the huge fall off of code, finalised programs being exported to other countries. Basically no country can trust any other countries code any more, so a lot more restructuring will be occurring as countries start pushing no importing of code. A lot more jobs will end up diminishing, as the forced upgrade era also starts to wind down. There are not that many new jobs and it is all just about squeezing down salaries at the bottom to raise them at the top and coders are at the bottom in the tech world. Likely the biggest employment area is security, with no one trusting no one, there is a huge amount of security work to be done in computer systems.

Re:Short term: change title from programmer to dev

[HiThere]

Back in the day, I thought of myself as a programmer, but my title was programmer/analyst, and towards the end I called myself a systems analyst, as that was common usage for what I did. But I still thought of myself as a programmer.

I don't think "software developer" is the right title for most people to chose. I think "software analyst/developer" would probably be better. But you need to check what term the place you're working for/applying at uses. And for best results be sure the title matches your skill set. (And it's ok to continue to think of yourself as a programmer.)

Re:Short term: change title from programmer to dev

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm pretty sure this happens every day. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Re:Short term: change title from programmer to dev

[Anonymous Coward]

Too bad it takes 210K a year to pay for rent, food, and utilities.

Re:Short term: change title from programmer to dev

[Anonymous Coward]

Physicists, bankers, data scientists, pricing specialists, marketing consultants, accountants

Soon to be outsourced to a third world shithole far from you.

Re:Short term: change title from programmer to dev

[pepty]

An actual pharmacist has to sign off on each bottle, but most of the rest of the job is increasingly going to be handed off to techs and automation. Meanwhile, the profitability of running a PharmD school was noted and the market responded by upping the number of schools faster than the need for pharmacists. When the number of accredited programs goes up by over 50% and the number of graduates doubles in less than 15 years (2000 to 2012) ... you may be looking at another rat race soon.

Re:Short term: change title from programmer to dev

[Anonymous Coward]

You certainly can't buy a modest 2-br condo in a decent neighborhood in SF on a 220k/yr salary; must less buy any real property.

Also, you have to live in San Francisco. Awesome place if you're rich, gay, fond of crackheads and street people, and enjoy never having a single warm day all year. Otherwise it's kind of a shithole.

Re:Short term: change title from programmer to dev

[Anonymous Coward]

Self-study for the adept vastly outpaces most traditional forms of education relating to software engineering. The hard part is finding those few that can absorb new APIs like a sponge.

Re:Short term: change title from programmer to dev

[Anonymous Coward]

Find a company where their core business is the software their write themselves, and they have financial penalties for a lack of quality.

Re:Short term: change title from programmer to dev

[Chalnoth]

The BLS says the number of programmers will drop by 26,500 over the next ten years, while the number of software developers will increase by 186,600. I.e., this story is bullshit and the writer should have paid closer attention to the statistics. The number of people writing software as their job in the US is expected to increase pretty dramatically.

Re:Short term: change title from programmer to dev

[AmiMoJo]

This. We are dealing with a company that makes a sensor with a CPU in it. It constantly consumes about 16mA, totally unacceptable for a battery powered product. Our data logging side averages around 1000x less. The guy they have is a generic programmer and we are having to teach him how to put the CPU to sleep when possible instead of busy looping.

The guy doesn't even work for them. They wrote a spec and outsourced the work, and it sucks. Generic programmers are fine for stuff where performance doesn't matter, where low quality is good enough. I'm sure my job is safe because I know my stuff.

Re:Short term: change title from programmer to dev

[Anonymous Coward]

In my opinion, math could be totally reworked to include algorithmic concepts and numerical calculations. think of learning three basic sorts (heap,bubble, select) at mid-high school level (grade 10 ish in the states yr 11 in NZ) in the academic math streams, there's alot of math sitting in it. going through the process of analysing why heap offers an improvement in bigO notation, the concept of scaling in up to larger numbers. the math is about the correct challenge, even the algorithms can be approached from a mathematical side, and gives a pretty good insight into how some of the ways we approach tasks, aren't really the optimum way of doing things.

Re:Short term: change title from programmer to dev

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm in tech, and I like it it. I also have a trade to fall back on, HVAC/R and I was very good. Obviously, because I'm still in tech, I can't make the same money in HVAC, but if I need work I always have a fall back. Augment you tech skills with a trade.

It's the end, folks

[Anonymous Coward]

The never-ending growth myth has to be put to rest now. We need a new social model that will for us, not just for the rentiers and 1%ers.

We can't grow eternally. It's not physically possible or socially desirable.

Re: It's the end, folks

[Anonymous Coward]

Huh??

Re: It's the end, folks

[Anonymous Coward]

You can't rely on having a "job" anymore. Our entire social model rests on growth, which can't exist eternally, and now we are starting to see, it doesn't exist anymore.

Simply put, there's nowhere left to grow, nothing left to do, so what do people need to do to have a job anymore?

We don't need millions of electrical engineers, or programmers, or whatevers. We need to wind down the 20th century model, and accept that we now have to redistribute the accumulated resources of the last hundred years.

Re:It's the end, folks

[blue9steel]

We need a new social model that will for us, not just for the rentiers and 1%ers.

Demonstrate one that doesn't rely on unicorns and universal goodwill and you'll be a hero to seven billion people. In the meantime we muddle along with the system we've got.

We can't grow eternally. It's not physically possible or socially desirable.

A falsehood and a subjective value judgement. Nothing to see here, move along.

Re:It's the end, folks

[Anonymous Coward]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jk4VCT5fo7M

Just because I don't have an answer doesn't mean I don't have a valid question.

The upcoming years will really see if we can "choose to do these things not because they are easy, but because they are hard."

Re:It's the end, folks

[phantomfive]

No economist ever believed that never-ending growth is possible. I don't even know why you think that.

As a more practical measure, as long as the population is growing, the economy can grow.

Re: It's the end, folks

[Anonymous Coward]

Simply put, there's nowhere left to grow, nothing left to do

If you walk 10 minutes through any city or town or even through the countryside and don't see anything that needs to be done but isn't, or could be improved but isn't, then you must be blind. The problem isn't that there is no potential for growth, it's that people are neither willing nor able to do the things that would have to be done for that growing to happen. People are content with subsistence. They lack motivation. That is first and foremost a social problem, not one of economics.

Re:It's the end, folks

[Anonymous Coward]

Unfortunately for you, it's the One Percenters calling the shots and they like it just as it is. No, it's not possible to keep on growing, but that's not what's going to happen. What's going to happen is that us poor chumps will have to go.

Re: It's the end, folks

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree with your assessment, but even if I wanted to help all the homeless people I see on the Montreal Metro every morning, I can't. The game is rigged, I can't take a week off to help other people because I'd likely lose my job and end up homeless myself, because the other side of the economy equation hasn't changed: I still need to buy food, pay my mortgage, etc...

We, as individuals, have been rendered powerless, and the institutions that are supposed to represent us do not.

Re: It's the end, folks

[EdwardFurlong]

You can't rely on having a "job" anymore. Our entire social model rests on growth, which can't exist eternally, and now we are starting to see, it doesn't exist anymore.

Simply put, there's nowhere left to grow, nothing left to do, so what do people need to do to have a job anymore?

We don't need millions of electrical engineers, or programmers, or whatevers. We need to wind down the 20th century model, and accept that we now have to redistribute the accumulated resources of the last hundred years.

It should be no surprise that no single industry will always grow faster than others.What do you need to do? The same thing every other person is doing, there is not going to be one answer. Change careers, find a niche, start your own business, do your job really well, move to a higher demand area. I mean, there "is nothing left to do"? I would take a good look at the rest of the world, even many first would countries are facing much worse prospects than the U.S. It is probably just going to take more work than before, maybe you will have to keep educated and on top of your game.

Re:It's the end, folks

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not even sure I should explain this, because it's a fantastic shibboleth: People who claim that never-ending economic growth is impossible due to finite physical resources reliably expose their ignorance of economics. So I'll just leave a hint: Note that I wrote economic growth, but physical resources.

Re:It's the end, folks

[Anonymous Coward]

"No economist ever believed that never-ending growth is possible."

http://freakonomics.com/2014/01/24/can-economic-growth-continue-forever-of-course/

" I don't even know why you think that."

Because I get out of the house once in a while?

"As a more practical measure, as long as the population is growing, the economy can grow."

So you contradict your own premise. Wow, you and Coren22 should hang out sometime. The meeting of two such powerful minds could well power a neutino for a nanosecond.

Re:It's the end, folks

[Anonymous Coward]

> As a more practical measure, as long as the population is growing, the economy can grow.

There is a cap on time and energy.

In the 20th + 21st centuries, we've been able to grow our economies and populations way beyond natural limits because we've had access to the cheap energy to do so. That won't last forever, and then the party will be over.

Re:It's the end, folks

[Anonymous Coward]

Depends on the economist. Some supply-side a-hole was on NPR a few weeks ago.

He was explaining how wages would remain stagnant until productivity increased

He did not bother to explain how 'increasing productivity' was the exact opposite of increasing wages, and how the two would never be the same thing

Productivity comes from paying less for the same amount of work, wage growth means paying more for the same amount of work

Unless of course you let yourself get fooled and believe the lies that these ass-hats are selling

Business people 'think' that the generate every great idea and that the rest of us are just commodities that can be traded out for the cheaper model

We need to learn from the early 20th century and walk the fuck out on them, it is the only way that they will realize that there are much higher costs involved in pissing off their employees

Re:It's the end, folks

[phantomfive]

So you contradict your own premise.

No. It seems unreasonable that population growth will continue forever.

Re:It's the end, folks

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure, so now we need to change our social arrangements for 0.000000000000000000001% "economic growth", instead of the China-like cancerous type of growth.

You stopped growing, your kids will, this is elementary. You are playing word games.

Re:It's the end, folks

[Anonymous Coward]

You are playing word games.

I'm really not, but you seem to be one of those people who complain loudly when they should be quiet and learn. Carry on, you've already made abundantly clear that you don't know what you're talking about.

Re:It's the end, folks

[TsuruchiBrian]

Productivity comes from paying less for the same amount of work, wage growth means paying more for the same amount of work

I guess that would be true if there was never any progress, and some amount of "work" always required the same amount of effort. Most economists define productivity as producing more for less effort. Like if you invent a machine that makes doing your job easier, you can do twice as much work for the same effort.

Re:It's the end, folks

[phantomfive]

http://freakonomics.com/2014/01/24/can-economic-growth-continue-forever-of-course/

I stand corrected.

Re:It's the end, folks

[umghhh]

whether economists believed in that or not is irrelevant as we cannot ever verify their beliefs. There were always hordes of them ready to tell us how the growth will go on forever, virtual economy has decoupled itself from real one and other such nonsense.
Your second sentence may or not be true - most of places where population growth went over the available resources however had a slaughter that followed. We see if we can provide solution with technology and organisation. I myself doubt that we can but we have no choice as to see it anyway.

Re:It's the end, folks

[Anonymous Coward]

He did not bother to explain how 'increasing productivity' was the exact opposite of increasing wages

That's probably because productivity per worker has been skyrocketing, the GDP has been skyrocketing, real unemployment has been steadily increasing, and wages have been stagnant. For decades now, and the pace is accelerating.

I'm not sure I believe the premise that "infinite" growth is unsustainable, but then again I'm one of those space nutters who says, "No warp drive? Ok, fine, let's do it anyway." (In a strict sense, infinite growth is impossible, universe will end some day, etc.) However, there's plenty to do right here on this planet also. Developed, wealthy countries mean smaller families and people who simply choose not to reproduce. While we're reaching for Mars and Venus, we should be funding a massive global infrastructure project. Daesh couldn't exist if we were spending that skyrocketing GDP on bringing the rest of the world up to 1st world standards instead of killing and manufacturing instability.

(I'm absolutely serious about that. I'm sick of working in IT. Retrain me as a capital E engineer, the kind without borders, supply me with raw materials to bootstrap things, and let's do this thing.)

One thing is absolutely certain. If we do not implement a basic guaranteed income soon or else a jobs program to modernize the entire globe, maybe we're not there quite yet, things are going to get ugly.

Welcome to Interesting Times.

Re: It's the end, folks

[Anonymous Coward]

You as individuals have always been powerless. You have been simply shown just how much.

Re:It's the end, folks

[angel'o'sphere]

Productivity comes from paying less for the same amount of work, wage growth means paying more for the same amount of work
That is not a productivity gain but deflation.

Productivity increase means, in the same time with the same resources the same workers: produce more!
Hence you can lower the price on the product, still make more money, and even can pay more for/to the workers.

Do you really believe I'm more productive if you pay me less??????

Business people 'think' that the generate every great idea and that the rest of us are just commodities that can be traded out for the cheaper model
Yes, some think that. But I guess they will learn ... on the other hand, the states seem to be a country where everyone tries to get rich on behalf of the rest of the "nation" ... this outsourcing crap we keep hearing here on /. is not really happening in Europe e.g.

If you have tried it once, figure quickly, it either does not work at all, or you have to change everything. Not only "exchange" the developers/programmers.

India is one of the countries with the most CMMI level 4 and even 5 certificated companies/development departments.

If you want to outsource stuff to them, you have to "prepare" all work/contracts on CMMI 4/5 level to be even able to "work together" with them.

Why does that work for them? Because the whole university education is aiming to make replaceable drones for such high level environments. It is not expected that a developer/programmer is "thinking" about mistakes etc. as the whole process is tailored for him that he only has to take care for his own stuff.

Most european companies are not ready to fine grain requirements in a way suited for that, or have a trans global work pipeline suited for this. So we either invite small indian teams, or others, to Europe or more or less do our stuff alone.

Re: It's the end, folks

[yes-but-no]

When a rocket can be launched and brought back and landed safely, it is sad to see a society where 99% or more worry about basic needs of food and shelter. No, just because you rent or pay a mortgage, you are not fine -- you live in that perennial fear of homeless. You lose a job and that's the end of world. What kind of society is this? when science and technology has offered so much, even a cave-man never worried for survival like the 99%. In fact a homeless person lives in more peace than the so called wage-slave. I guess it's all due to the polarization of wealth and system which uses laws to keep the 99% away from the resources [land, water, freedom to use the natural resources].

Re:It's the end, folks

[Anonymous Coward]

What's the name of your disorder?

Re:It's the end, folks

[gweihir]

What, have you not heard we are going to colonize Mars and then the rest of the Universe? Growth forever!

</sarcasm>

Seriously, I fully agree. I think the US has peaked some 10-15 years ago, with the EU 10 years behind. It is now either stability or decline. The US seems to have opted for decline and the EU seems to want to follow that model.

Re: It's the end, folks

[CauseBy]

Yeah, we can't "grow forever", but the universe is vast, we can grow for a long, long time -- a trillion years, at least, probably. So let's not worry about it quite yet.

Re:It's the end, folks

[euroq]

Productivity comes from paying less for the same amount of work, wage growth means paying more for the same amount of work

Productivity comes from more value from the same amount of pay. One way to achieve productivity is from paying less from the same amount of value, another way is to pay the same for more amount of value.

Re:It's the end, folks

[Anonymous Coward]

> Productivity comes from more value from the same amount of pay.

No, productivity comes from more value, period. It has nothing to do with cost.

If you pay $30 million to produce $50 million of goods and services, then the following year pay $50 million to produce $70 million of goods and services, you net the same $20 million of value but you still increased productivity.

Re:It's the end, folks

[euroq]

No, productivity comes from more value, period. It has nothing to do with cost.

According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... it's the ratio of input to output, so in this case cost is the input and value is the output. However, I'm no economist.

Re:It's the end, folks

[Anonymous Coward]

Okay, fair enough - I was thinking solely of production... productivity is the efficiency of production.

There are still "programmers"

[Anonymous Coward]

People who can only translate extremely specific requirements into source code have been useless for a decade.

The same holds true for other jobs, too.

[scunc]

During that same time period, secretarial jobs will likely see an 8% drop in demand, but administrative assistants will see a 17% increase!

Re:The same holds true for other jobs, too.

[Tablizer]

And I'm changing my title from "troll" to "agitation engineer".

Re:The same holds true for other jobs, too.

[U2xhc2hkb3QgU3Vja3M]

Yes sir Mr. Johnson.

Re:The same holds true for other jobs, too.

[Anonymous Coward]

You made someone really happy.

Signed,
Humphrey Appleby

Re:The same holds true for other jobs, too.

[sinij]

And I'm changing my title from "troll" to "agitation engineer".

Please, you are nothing more but self-stimulation engineer.

Re:The same holds true for other jobs, too.

[q4Fry]

And I'm changing my title from "troll" to "agitation engineer".

New Moderation option coming soon.

Re:The same holds true for other jobs, too.

[umghhh]

I do not know why they always miss blow jobs from labour statistics.

Re:The same holds true for other jobs, too.

[gweihir]

Hahahahaha, FAIL!

That is "agitation scientist"! Agitation engineers will soon face unemployment, as those jobs will go overseas. Indian tech support has been training for this new opportunity for years, as everybody that ever talked to them knows.

H1B

[Anonymous Coward]

What percentage of jobs out there are being done by H1Bs? I would assume they would feel the 8% hit first.

Re:H1B

[arth1]

What percentage of jobs out there are being done by H1Bs? I would assume they would feel the 8% hit first.

As long as they are cheaper, you can safely assume that they will feel the 8% hit last.

Re:H1B

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, legally speaking, that should not be the case. There will be 8% less jobs that are currently going unfilled because of lack of domestic workers.

Re:H1B

[arth1]

Well, legally speaking, that should not be the case. There will be 8% less jobs that are currently going unfilled because of lack of domestic workers.

I'm sure that you know well that there are ways to prevent domestic workers from being able to get the job so they can use cheaper H1B resources.
It's not uncommon to tailor-make the job description and application requirements to fit the candidates from a foreign staffing company supplying H1B applicants.
But something as simple as "must be proficient in [insert language] for efficient coordination with outsourced development" will also do.

Re:H1B

[Anonymous Coward]

Well lookie here Bob, we got us one o' them there optimists. Let's break 'im.

Re:H1B

[TsuruchiBrian]

So we should expect all the executives to be fired first since they have the highest salaries.

Re:H1B

[arth1]

So we should expect all the executives to be fired first since they have the highest salaries.

Except that it's the executives that decide who is to be fired...

Re:H1B

[TsuruchiBrian]

The owners (shareholders) can decide to maximize their profits by hiring all H1B executives on the cheap.

Unions

[rsilvergun]

If there's going to be any hope for the American working class we're gonna need to get over our childish "I can make it on my own" attitudes and bring back organized labor and the power and protection it offers. It's ridiculous to think we as individuals can effectively bargain with mega corps. John Galt is a child's daydream...

Re: Unions

[Anonymous Coward]

Unions are not viable anymore in the global economy. As long as economy worked mainly at the national level, you could organize workers and actually have some leverage. Now? They can shift production faster than you can say "We're on strike". The workforce is also completely fragmented and the interests of those working in the logistic, support and administrative branches have nothing in common with those in production. It's over. The masters have won.

Re:Unions

[Anonymous Coward]

Your outdated notions of nationalism are the problem. Corporations are not loyal to national boundaries and so neither should citizens. If one wants to compete in the global marketplace one must think beyond the boundaries of the country they happen to reside. My suggestion? Learn Chinese.

Re:Unions

[Anonymous Coward]

#FeelTheBern, right, komrade?

Re:Unions

[Anonymous Coward]

> John Galt is a child's daydream...

John Galt gave up on the system and ran off to be a farmer. What does that say about progress?

Re:Unions

[Anonymous Coward]

Answer: Unions need to go global as well.

Re:Unions

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem is that we are told that corporations are people too, yet citizens are affected greatly by immigration laws. Corporations, seemingly not.

Re:Unions

[Tablizer]

American working class we're gonna need to get over our childish "I can make it on my own" attitudes and bring back organized labor and the power and protection it offers

That's indeed one of the most powerful propaganda gimmicks of the plutocrats: claiming unions are for unmanly wimps, and if you can't "cowboy" it out there on your own, you deserve to perish. They spend a lot of money to shove that message up the population.

Of course, the rich have their crony "buddy system" that does pretty much what a union does. Bill Gates had access to a minicomputer as a kid because his parents had money and lived in the better school district. Mitt, Trump, and the Bush bro's had daddy's money and influence.

Re:Unions

[iamacat]

We can bargain with megacorps quite effectively so long as supply and demand of labor is balanced. Compare your consumer experience when shopping for personal electronics (lots of competition, abundant supply) vs dealing with Comcast (monopoly). It's exactly the same with jobs - if you have a skill set which is in short supply, you will get great deals without any unions.

So the best solution for oversupply of labor is for government to hire part of the workforce away from private market and put them on projects that reduce fixed costs of living for everyone else and increase disposable impact to purchase privately made goods. That's why New Deal worked well for recovery from Great Depression. If we build good roads, affordable housing, public transportation and affordable domestically produced energy, we provide lots of jobs while freeing up most of people's paycheck to go into private economy rather than mortgage and gas bill.

So politics is a better direction to put your time in money than unions, although I guess the later is a useful stopgap measure and can be an organizing force for politics.

Re:Unions

[Anonymous Coward]

tl;dr: "Waaaaaahhh...everyone who has more money than I do is super duper evil and only has that money because their daddy gave it to them!" More of the class envy that Obama rode through two elections.

Re:Unions

[Anonymous Coward]

Why the hell would anyone want to learn Chinese? Are you suggesting we give up civil liberties for totalitarianism and falsely inflated economics? You're also assuming that the "global" marketplace is on the same footing. Just because there's a bottom, doesn't mean we should be racing towards it.

Re:Unions

[Tablizer]

See, you're doing it.

Citizens accept a certain degree of inequality because we know it's necessary for capitalism to work properly. However, populations won't accept HUGE inequality very long. The claim that huge inequality is necessary for "motivation" is utterly ridiculous.

It's not just about "fairness", but the very political system. The rich buy laws they want via campaign contributions and political ads, short-circuiting democracy.

Look at their attack on climate change research and solutions. They don't want to pay for greener energy, and so spend boatloads of money to discredit the idea. And it works, roughly 40% of the population fell for it.

Re:Unions

[Anonymous Coward]

You sound like you've internalized wingnut media. It made you VERY stupid. This kind of stuff is how the ignorant Conservatives got worse and marginalized themselves.

Re:Unions

[__aaclcg7560]

The problem is that nationalism is fine for everyone else except the United States. Germany has a national policy to protect manufacturing. If the president of the United States puts forth a policy to rebuild our manufacturing base, it would be regarded as an obstacle to free trade and undermining the world economy.

Re:Unions

[Anonymous Coward]

That would be great advice if we weren't in a global economy you fucking tard. Good luck with US-centric unions in any job where the market is global, which is the majority of technical jobs.

Re:Unions

[Anonymous Coward]

Slashdot's advice to taxi drivers? Hohoho, you jerks held your precious little monopoly for far too long, now our technology has freed the market.

Slashdot's advice to journalists? Heheheh, you jerks held your precious little monopoly for far too long, now our technology has freed the market.

Slashdot's advice to people in the publishing industry? Musicians? Movies? Retail industry? Hospitality industry? Ditto, ditto, ditto, ditto, and ditto.

So now it's our turn to sweat. WAAAAAAAAA why doesn't Congress get off their asses and fix this urgent catastrophic situation facing their constituents and their families!??

Gee.. did I hear crickets?

Re:Unions

[houstonbofh]

So, you are saying to use that 8% to rebuild Healthcare.gov?

Re:Unions

[Anonymous Coward]

It would also be a giant waste of time. Europe's economy sucks and will continue to suck. The United States has remained strong by not playing the old 20th century protectionist game. The economy and talent pool are global now. No laws will change that fact. Countries that embrace the competition and change their laws to allow business and international trade to flourish are going to be in far better shape than ones that pretend other talent simply does not exist. The more intelligent, working, people in the world, the better off we all will be. Talented people embrace this.

Re:Unions

[sinij]

The key difference is that "I can go without one" can apply to a personal electronic device, but generally would not apply to feeding your own children.Consequently, labor supply side is largely inelastic, while demand is. You can see how, save substantial global population drop, megacorps would have upper hand.

Re:Unions

[Anonymous Coward]

Money is a tool. Money doesn't give you any talent whatsoever. More often than not, it follows brains. Spend some time in the developing countries in Asia and you'll see culturally why they are growing and the West is not. In India and SE Asia, successful businesspeople are rock stars. In the US they are "the 1%" and are just assumed to be greedy monsters. You can't want to be successful while demonizing it at the same time.

Re:Unions

[ClickOnThis]

Answer: Unions need to go global as well.

Many of them already have.

Re:Unions

[__aaclcg7560]

Europe as a whole sucks, but the Germans have the strongest economy in the union. They protect their manufacturing base as national policy. They don't have to worry about the Chinese buying out their factories, have their workers train Chinese workers, have their manufacturing equipment shipped overseas, and have unemployed workers with outdated job skills. Talented people don't embrace rape and pillage in the name of free trade.

Re:Unions

[DigiShaman]

Question: How is unionizing going to keep the jobs from going overseas?? I'll go further and state unionizing will just further accelerate the process of shoving more jobs away from the American working class.

If I may borrow from the famous Starwars quote with modification: "The more you tighten your grip, rsilvergun, the more jobs will slip through your fingers."

Re:Unions

[Anonymous Coward]

If John Galt is a child's daydream, modern unions are a nightmare. Have you ever watched one work? Seen who and what they stick up for? I'd rather work for myself.

Re:Unions

[Anonymous Coward]

It's hilarious how this post is in a thread about software developers/programmers. As a software dev myself, with a bachelors degree in computer science and 1 year worth of experience, I literally have to fight with recruiters (internal/external) and HR departments who want me to sign employment papers without even interviewing me. I'm in my early-mid 20's and scoff at job offers 60k and 100k is not an unrealistic short term goal for me. I cannot speak for any other profession, but right now I do NOT need a union.

Re:Unions

[iamacat]

Why would not feeding your children be a consideration in a balanced labor market? If I leave a job, I can find another job in reasonable time, so both me and my employer have choices and incentive to treat each other well. Just like most people consider having some kind of cell phone a necessity, but have a choice of Apple, Samsung, LG and many others, so prices and features stay great.

It's said that most people never lived under such sane conditions, all while our public infrastructure is crumbling from disrepair.

Re:Unions

[vel-ex-tech]

More often than not, it follows brains.

Hahahaha! Hahahahahaha!

Well, I guess gaslighting, bullshitting, fast talking, Gish galloping, lying, manipulation, psychological abuse, backstabbing, brown nosing, and knowing which palms to grease are all skills, too.

Re: Unions

[Anonymous Coward]

Unions are not viable anymore in the global economy.

Tell that to police, firefighters, electricians, plumbers, etc. Which is where we're all going to have to go, into the trades. The fat cats can't pay Sanjeet in Bangalore 80 cents a day to unclog their toilets.

Re:Unions

[guruevi]

They haven't brought power or protection for a long time. They do so for line workers and people that are easily replaced and have a fixed cost (manual labor etc). People that aren't easily replaced (eg. programmers/developers) with fluctuating incomes (based on capability rather than seniority) don't benefit from a labor union. Unless you want all of us to work for 35k/year and 40h/week regardless of what you do and pay dues on top of that, you don't know what you're asking for.

Re:Unions

[Anonymous Coward]

Something like that.

Belonging to one of the few unions, I can tell you collective bargaining isn't all that it is cracked up to be: management still frequently violates labor agreements at whim, relying on greater cash reserves and the slow wheels of justice to work in their favor. And when they are finally found in violation by the courts (a process that can take years), they simply say "my bad", pay a fine, and the whole process starts over again. Not to mention stewards of the union can have a much too cozy relationship with management, and as long as they aren't directly affected, never seem to have the resources to litigate egregious contract violations. Sometimes it seems you are on the losing end of a two front battle.

Nor is being in demand labor wise a decent hedge against abuse. Look at the scalping agreements Google and Apple had. By the time you have had your day in court, your earning potential has been severely diminished, and it's not like you can get your 20 years back. Money after the fact always falls short after the damage has been done and wages have been artificially depressed for so long.

New Deal measures, while possibly effective, also are ripe with corruption, keeping dead industries afloat long after their usefulness has ended.It's the flag-bearer of the military-industrial-congressional complex.

Nope, you need something far more radical, like basic income, where regardless of what the markets does labor can still eat and train for different careers when it turns out textile workers aren't needed anymore.

Re:Unions

[Anonymous Coward]

Or we could cut illegal immigration and visa workers. We could even cut legal immigration. This would tighten up the labor market in the U.S. and boost wages (we could even raise the minimum wage if this happened!).

But every time this is brought up, accusations of racism fly fast. It's apparently okay for blue collars workers to get their wages destroyed by illegal immigration, but not for white collar workers to lose out against visa workers.

Labor is a market like anything else. What happens when you flood the fuel market with oil/gasoline? The price drops. What happens when you flood the labor market with workers? The price drops. After the Black Death, Europe's workers say an increase in wages since there were fewer of them around. Same for the early days of the American Colonies. There was more work than labor and so they had to implement a maximum wage law.

People complain about all the evil things the rich/corporations do, except when it comes to immigration. Suddenly, everything they do is acceptable. I think it's because certain politicians will benefit from an increase in voters (and the rest are deluded morons).

(Last I checked, the unions approved of amnesty as part of their backroom politicking. So much for worker protection.)

Re:Unions

[Anonymous Coward]

Funny that you don't mention the wealthy left and no sooner does someone offset you but you go off on this tangent about AGW.
 
So yeah, you're doing it too, as far as the concept of misdirection.
 
Just keep thinking that there are two parties, one that loves you and wants the best for everyone and everything short of private jets and limos should be free while the other one wrings their hand and laughs, kicking puppies and locking children into torture chambers until they accept the deity of their choice.

Re:Unions

[iamacat]

Why give basic income away for free when you can spend the same money and get recipients to do some useful work, especially work of a kind that improves private sector employee purchasing power and reduces need for government assistance in future? If you are saying that some people are not willing or able to do any useful work whatsoever and still should not starve, or that students who are making good progress should get a stipend, I agree. But addressing these corner cases is a lot easier and more affordable once everyone else is at work, making productive contributions to society in either private or public sector.

Re:Unions

[ClickOnThis]

John Galt gave up on the system and ran off to be a farmer. What does that say about progress?

Nothing.

But it says a lot about Ayn Rand's juvenile self-centered world-view.

Re:Unions

[TsuruchiBrian]

I really don't see any good labor unions have done recently. They were vital for securing safe work conditions and capping the number of hours in the work week. Now a days it just seems like all they do is prevent incompetent people from being fired. I'm not saying unions can't have a positive role. It just seems like they don't. If I were a teacher I'd rather be making 80K (rather than 40K) and not be protected from being fired. If there was ever a race to the bottom, it seems like unions are partly to blame.

Re:Unions

[Anonymous Coward]

Yup, just not the skills and type of brainpower you have. You've been brought up on the false notion that nerds would inherit the earth, when the reality is the cool kids at school who used to bully you and get laid will. Just as it's always been for 99% of history.

Re:Unions

[Anonymous Coward]

Why would you think basic income is for free? Essentially, you are betting that reduced overhead has enough savings to offset losses of creating a bureaucrat class, and reducing the market distortions of a command economy (which is what you are really arguing for). As even basic income still needs to be paid as a portion of GDP (I calculated around 12%), all you've done is streamlined most welfare and given people the opportunity to walk away from poor work conditions, or become entrepreneurs themselves.

So no, it's not the same money, it is less money (overall), and with far more options than being guided by government. Not to mention you've simplified the problem tenfold.

Re:Unions

[Anonymous Coward]

The thing is that in the trails that have been run, only a very small minority of people just stay at home high/drunk all day.

Personally, I envision a global infrastructure program. How are you going to get it funded? How do you keep the corruption out?

I'm not saying I have the perfect answer, but at this point, a basic guaranteed income along with free tuition seem like the best way to go to me. I would also make minimum wage laws unconstitutional and repeal or rework the 16th amendment. Yes, do it properly. Amend the constitution. Create a free market for labor. Find better ways to tax capital, commerce, and profits.*

It turns out that when freed from the concerns of maintaining one's status as a wage slave, a lot of people keep their jobs, because hey, it's extra income on top of the basic income. Other people who hate their jobs quit them and then innovate and start new businesses now that the risk of failure is just some wasted time and effort, not homelessness. There are also people who have time to improve their local community and do so (skilled trades, community organizers).

Me? I'd get an Engineering degree and join up with Engineers without Borders. Or heck, I'd just go if they need somebody to build up information infrastructure, but that might be putting the cart before the horse.

A basic guaranteed income it turns out has excellent synergy with the idea of free markets. We just have to stop pretending that taxation is theft. It's not. It's the price of civilization. The only question is what kind of civilization we want to purchase and whether we're ready to unlock "post-scarcity" on the tech tree.

* All positions are nuanced. I think profits should be taxed but not paychecks. Yes, you can argue those are the same thing in one sense but they're really not.

Re:Unions

[Anonymous Coward]

So to solve the problem of tech jobs going overseas to cheaper labor, we should unionize and make labor more expensive here in the US? Why not seemed to work well for manufacturing.

Re:Unions

[Anonymous Coward]

"Climate Change" is a naturally occuring thing - and everyone knows it. The Earth has gone through tons of warming and cooling in the billions of years it's been around. The "climate change is mans fault" group are the utterly BRAINWASHED group - PERIOD! Ask Al Gore how RICH he is getting on it....

Re:Unions

[Anonymous Coward]

Find better ways to tax capital, commerce, and profits.

Land value tax. Essentially becomes a progressive, voluntary tax, and like basic income, is favored by the right as being the least destructive tax.

Re:Unions

[Darinbob]

Problem is we need to learn to either make corporations loyal to their country, or to stop treating them as citizens and legal residents. If the corporations screw with this country then we should be allowed to screw them right back, if you harm us we harm you back. Kick their headquarters off shore to a third world country where their workers live and send the executives there too. If workers and production are moved overseas then why keep the executives here? But some free market true believer will say "but what about trickle down, and all the new domestic service jobs created by all the rich American fat cats, what are you some sort of commie?"

The problem is that while we are competing globally for products and services, we should not necessarily be competing globally for employees, and definitely there should be no free trade with regards to employees. This is a part of the economic model that often overlooked.

Re:Unions

[Darinbob]

To the free market believer, civil liberties are unimportant compared to economic liberties and a 2% growth in in their stock portfolios.

Re: Unions

[Anonymous Coward]

We must be willing to trade useless civil liberties we can no longer afford and cannot eat for the ability to earn our bread. It's that simple. In the end, between "freedom" and life we tend to choose life. We will do so again.

Re:Unions

[scamper_22]

Similarly, the whole... we can turn societies into unions and think equality will come about is equally ridiculous.

I'm in Canada. If you manage to get into a well connected union, your life might be good. Maybe teachers, police officers, public sector workers...

But other unions get trampled.

If you want some grand irony.
I'm in big union Ontario. Guess what job is actually prohibited by law from forming a union?

Perhaps the most vulnerable of all workers.. farm workers.

There are many child dreams. I have no idea what the answer is.
You might say individual bargaining is a pipe dream. From where I sit in Canada, unions present the same problem as some workers will belong to unions that are exposed to the free market, areas where people want cheap goods (farm)... and they will lack protections. Meanwhile those that belong to powerful unions get to rip off society at the tax payer's dime.

Re:Unions

[Darinbob]

The United States has not remained strong economically. That is, the economics of all its citizens not just the economics of companies that are based here. Wages stay the same even though it's claimed that the economy is improving, which is an absurdity.

The talent pool is global but no one is looking for talent anymore, they just want warm bodies at the lowest rate possible. The economic models don't even take this into account. The models assume we ship product A overseas and then they ship back product B to us. What really is going to happen is that we build product A overseas and hire workers overseas so that there's no one local who can afford to buy product B. We essentially swap our good economy for their poor economy rather than equalizing the economies and helping both out. A robust trade in goods is something we want but a trade in workers is bad.

Protectionism for goods is one thing and it may be bad in some cases (not all) but there should be protectionism for the workers since the purpose of a government is to protect its citizens. If the government won't protect its workers then the workers should replace it with a different government.

Re:Unions

[Anonymous Coward]

Only 1% of the population has a a set of skills which is in short supply. The average person is average and half of the population is below average. There will be an abundance of workers competing for the same low skilled job. When your parents or even your neighborhood was unlucky with the skills they could develop, you will be less likely to develop a set of skills that is wanted by megacorps.

Politics in a democracy can't change that. The average person is again just an average politician. It will be again only 1% (or rather 0.01%) who will be good at politics, and they don't care for the 99% of the people. They just care for themselves. If you happen to live in a country where you need money to be elected, than only those with money will get elected. And who has that money? Again the 1%. It doesn't matter if the politician was part of a low middle class or even a poor class. To get elected they'll still need the money from people with money. The average person will not give money to politicians, even when united they would be able to change the country in half a decade. The average person will not understand, they are too divided and too ignorant.

Re:Unions

[Darinbob]

A class envy exploited by both parties. The extreme Republicn position is about getting the poor people to vote for politicians that will hurt them in the long run with policies that only help rich people (unless you believe in trickle down voodoo economics).

Re:Unions

[Anonymous Coward]

German has strong unions who have a say in what happens in the corporations. Has Germany moved more jobs or less jobs to low wage countries? See German model

Re:Unions

[Darinbob]

Money may follow brains but the brains don't get that money. The brains get hired as workers and the guys at the top keep the money. Or were you one of those who thought Steve Jobs invented the smart phone single handledly through the sheer might of his engineering prowess?

But we have many cases of money not following brains. Offshoring of jobs for instance, it is not going to the brighest and best workers, very often it's about hiring 2 workers instead of 1 for the same price and if the workers aren't trained well enough then they'll buy 3 workers for 1. This is not even good for the business except in the short term (boss saves costs and gets a raise today but though the product is now substandard and late and gets the boss fired next year). If you want to hire the best brains from third world emerging countries then those brains are already in the US and Europe because they left those countries and got educated elsewhere. What's left are workers trained in basic tech services (help desk support, computer management) where low cost is more important than high quality.

Re:Unions

[Anonymous Coward]

Only the right get their "science news" from Mr. Gore. Smart people get science information from ... wait for it ... scientists!

Re:Unions

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't want another boss to answer to. I don't want to be forced to pay a group that will do political lobbying for the benefit of the union bosses. I don't want a union to tell me I can't do my job. I neither need nor want a union. I don't give a damn whether it's "manly" or not and I don't even know what that's supposed to mean.

If a company is doing exploitative things like the company towns from the days of yore, then the government should shut that down. But making new monopolies has never worked out well whether they were corporations or unions. Unions are an outdated and bad solution. I'd rather be a scab. Unions and monopolies are just different sides of the same coin and I don't intend to be exploited by either.

Re:Unions

[angel'o'sphere]

But addressing these corner cases is a lot easier and more affordable once everyone else is at work, making productive contributions to society in either private or public sector.
No, it is not.
Addressing those corner cases is a big bureaucratic endeavour. The social agency in Germany responsible for unemployment aid and social well fare has 108.536 employees. As comparison, the strength of the German armed forces is: 178.000. The biggest employer in Germany is: Bosch 283.507 (likely half of it outside of Germany, don't have a good source at hand, hm, my source here claims Bosch has no out of country employes, as I know that there is "Bosch Japan", I doubt it is correct.) Siemens, 128.000 (in Germany, 450000 world wide), Edeka, a chain of small shopping malls 302.000.

Anyway: if we had "basic income" from the 108.536 working for the "Bundesargentur für Arbeit", 90% would be obsolet.

The main reason why no European country managed to introduce "basic income" is the attempt by the bureaucrats themselves to prevent it. It is not even the "lost job" they have, it is the loss of power they will suffer that motivates them.

Re:Unions

[roman_mir]

Nice Orwellian doublespeak. What you are calling for is childish, collectivism is childish, not self reliance. By the way, as an employer I would not tolerate a union at my work place, I already have my development team spread around the world of-course as this is a good cost saving strategy, but it is also a useful strategy against these types of incidents. I can close down any particular shop in any one location should it try a stunt like that and continue with the rest.

Re:Unions

[vel-ex-tech]

Ok, this time you get a virtual +1 sad but true from me.

I'll probably end up being a welder or machinist or join a commercial fishing crew. So many other, more rewarding, ways to make money in this world.

Plus, when the asshole managers who don't value skill and experience run this world into the second dark age or if the revolution comes, I'll also end up with a practical skill.

Re:Unions

[angel'o'sphere]

Actually Germany sold lots of its steel factories to India and China. They got dismantled here, the parts got numbered, and they where build up there 1:1 again.

Germany, and most of Europe, simply learned it does not pay to outsource high skilled work. After all, our skills are still higher than the foreign ones.

The sold steel plants, e.g. produce "generic steel" while Germany (and Italy for that matter) focus on special steels or recycling steels for e.g. cars.

The problem in an economy is: you have housing, clothing, energy, food, retirees, pupils, health care etc. on one big basket. If you outsource the work, you outsource the income and the taxes to support said economy. Actually a no brainer.

In comparison what I hear here on /. Germany has a relatively low fluctuation in workers. A bit higher in employees, but bottom line it is very low. Ofc that is not true for unskilled labour like an over the counter seller in a bakery.

Re:Unions

[dotancohen]

So politics is a better direction to put your time in money than unions, although I guess the later is a useful stopgap measure and can be an organizing force for politics.

Your post was a terrificly concise summary of the first half of Mein Kampf. Seriously, go read it.

Re:Unions

[Anonymous Coward]

Why would not feeding your children be a consideration in a balanced labor market? If I leave a job, I can find another job in reasonable time, so both me and my employer have choices and incentive to treat each other well.

If your employer has 100 employees, then if you quit, it is a trivial (1%) impact for him.
If you are fired, it is 100% of your income and a very non trivial impact on you.

Both the bug and the windscreen suffer the same absolute impact. The bug comes out much worse though. You need enough bugs to cause the car the crash if you want the driver to slow down and not kill everyone one of you and your kind.

Re:Unions

[HiThere]

Actually, a certain degree of inequality is necessary for *society* to work. But the difference between between the wealthiest and the poorest shouldn't be much more than a factor of 50, or things start getting unpleasant. Perhaps in as large as a population as we currently have a factor of 100 could be justifiable. This would argue in favor of a combination of a guaranteed annual income (for everyone) and an exponentially based income tax. (It should be so designed that every increase in tax is matched by a proportionate increase in income...but not, as I usually argue, linear.)

P.S.: Democracy isn't the only system that suffers instability when there is extreme centralization of wealth or power. They all do. Some hide the instability more than others do, but it surfaces in coup d'etates, palace revolutions, etc. Note that these chaotic turmoils of instability rarely even touch the underlying cause. Democracy tries to moderate this, but when there is "regulatory capture" then the moderation loses it's power, and instability increases. I judge that in the US today there has been "regulatory capture" of the electoral process. It would be nice to be proven wrong, but that's not the way I'd bet.

Re:Unions

[Anonymous Coward]

Why give basic income away for free when you can spend the same money and get recipients to do some useful work, especially work of a kind that improves private sector employee purchasing power and reduces need for government assistance in future? If you are saying that some people are not willing or able to do any useful work whatsoever and still should not starve, or that students who are making good progress should get a stipend, I agree. But addressing these corner cases is a lot easier and more affordable once everyone else is at work, making productive contributions to society in either private or public sector.

Ok, what if I am stupid and lazy because the private company that ran the city water system screwed up and poisoned my brain as a child with lead? I can walk and talk and move, but I am easily distracted and less emotional control and stability, so I'll mouth off if I have a bad day. What sort of job do I get in your world? Is it one that treats me as a lesser being, through no fault of my own? Hold that thought:

First up, genuine question: Do you think human life has ANY inherent worth? If not, let's just kill all the poor - that will solve most resource sharing issues.

Second, if you think human life does have inherent worth, do you think ALL (not most) people will stand by while a virtual king takes over? If so, you are wrong - see history.

Third: What do we do about a tiny number of agitators (terrorists, freedom fighters, violent and non-violent civil rights protesters, abortion clinic bombers, whatever)? Do we execute them with an expensive trial? Have "The Purge" every month (aka see #1)? If we are going to have trials, and prisons and that stuff... That costs money. If you can appease 50% of those people with free bread and circuses for $5k/yr (aka cable+xbox+internet learning) instead of $100k/yr for prison (and cops, jails, trials, parole, judges, private company profit, higher insurance premiums, security costs, etc)...

If you aren't going to address the expensive solutions to the root causes (equal opportunity - not rich kids get good schools and poor kids get more kids), then for Fsck's sake, why not address the symptoms efficiently? Unemployment insurance, public housing and this osrt of stuff is CHEAPER than rioters burning down the city. And I mean the CITY, not a car or a CVS. If you isolate a class of peopel so much that they feel the system doesn't care about them, and it actively oppresses them, you should expect them to cheeer, if not aid, the system burning down.

It doesn't even take courage. If Achmed offers GanjaWeedRapper28 a bunch of cash for the guns/explosives he has access to "For uh... a fourth of july party!" guess, what. Achmed is gonna get it. Maybe Achmed offers TooManyKids18 a bag of cash (for his kids tutors!) in exchange for smuggling a banned (antique) ivory tusk/bag of dope onto a plane. Victimless crime right? So what. Well, that bag could have a boom boom instead.

If you are liberal, you should support it because you think this stuff helps.
If you are conservative, you should support it because it does.

Bread and circuses weren't the problem the Roman empire had, it was a lack of loyalty within and threats from without. We grow enough corn that we burn it so we can drive Hummers. Grain ain't our issue. We have plenty of tv and youtube channels too, so circuses aren't a problem either, not for anyone with internet (which is not 100% btw). That disconnect from our government? That's real. Extgernal threats? Well, they're not real yet. China'll be there in 10-20 years, but we can steam roll any nation state three times over in an all out war.

So what's left?

ISIS? A bunch of brigands? Even they could kill 100x of us for every one of them (current rate is about 5-10x in ambushes on civilians), so what? Even if they had 10,000 "martyrs" (aka poor nut jobs with no better options), that's a million people. We lost 7x that in WW. Big Whoop. Sure it would suck if you or yours is in the million, but there are 300M of us int he US alone, but in pure statistical terms? Pepsi/Frito Lay kills as many a year. At least.

Re:Unions

[Anonymous Coward]

if you have a skill set which is in short supply, you will get great deals without any unions.

That's great for the 1 in a 1000 that has a skill set that's in short supply.

Re:Unions

[jmcvetta]

Are you suggesting we give up civil liberties for totalitarianism and falsely inflated economics?

No no, I think you misunderstood: He was advocating leaving the US, not coming here.

Re:Unions

[Anonymous Coward]

John Galt organized a union and went on strike!

Re:Unions

[Anonymous Coward]

Good work keeping those smelly proles in their place!

Re:Unions

[fluffernutter]

I'm pretty sure that you have to live in a very specific spot in the US to have those kinds of offers available.

Re:Unions

[iamacat]

Again, it depends on supply and demand of labor. As long as there is healthy market for my skills, I get a nice paid vacation thanks to unemployment insurance and then another job which quite likely suits my needs better. In the meantime, if the employer is substandard compared to the market, everyone good will quit, taking their knowledge to competitors. And later, nobody with a talent will want to join and pull the weight for remaining underperformers.

And all that is needed to shift the balance is increased competition for labor from public sector (or new private sector players).

Re:Unions

[iamacat]

What kind of skill set is needed for toxic waste cleanup? Building and maintaining roads/affordable housing/solar farms/wind farms/bullet trains/spaceports? Growing healthy food with minimum pollution? Keeping every neighborhood in America safe?

All off those things are badly needed and have some jobs accessible to someone who would otherwise flip burgers. They also quickly benefit private sector far in excess of any taxes collected to pay salaries. If a neighborhood is safe, you can open a Safeway there because everybody eats. If people are not saddled with mortgage, they can buy your gadgets.

Re:Unions

[tsotha]

Citizens accept a certain degree of inequality because we know it's necessary for capitalism to work properly. However, populations won't accept HUGE inequality very long.

I don't see any evidence this is true. In the US we have enough of a safety net that people don't go hungry, and they get medical care. Between that and television I doubt there will ever be a political consensus to give unions more statutory leverage.

Re:Unions

[gweihir]

Indeed. The US may cover-up the steady decline and cling to a fantasy of superiority for a while longer by extending the police-state and then going into full fascism. But eventually, it is doomed. Going to a country that is still in ascent is starting lower, but seeing things get better over time. Much more desirable.

Re:Unions

[gweihir]

In comparison what I hear here on /. Germany has a relatively low fluctuation in workers. A bit higher in employees, but bottom line it is very low. Ofc that is not true for unskilled labour like an over the counter seller in a bakery.

In addition, that German "over the counter seller in a bakery" will have three years of job-specific education ("Baeckereifachverkaeufer") and will not be easily replaceable either. Sure, there will be some unskilled labor there, but only under supervision or while being qualified.

The only resource that has long-term durability is a well educated and qualified population. Of course, that makes conning people (the core skill of politicians) much harder, so there always is a desire to make the population dumber by those in power. That kills a country long-term, but those in power usually are in it only for themselves, so they do not care.

Re:Unions

[Tablizer]

A big recession or mass automation-related job loss could trigger it. More:

http://www.politico.com/magazi...

Re:Unions

[Anonymous Coward]

The solution is real simple.

We've got executives who are using their power to gratify their ego's rather than utilizing their ego's through the exercise of their power to accomplish a specific objective such as taking care of their staff, moving humanity and technology forward, or solving moral or medical mysteries, and so forth.

The solution is to break them up. Also, where necessary, I want to see anyone who screwed with the public for profit such as Jamie Dimon's entire executive board and himself on Jury trial for treason. In a free country, Dimon, the law says the jury tries you and the constitution points out the penalty for threatening congress and the public with mass hysteria for the fraud you perpetrated.

Start there.

As far as addressing programming jobs; programming jobs by BLS stats have been declining since 2000. Good luck telling the difference between a programmer and software developer, but the software developer sure does make more than the programmer. BTW, we've got enough H1B's in the states to work every programmer position there is.

Behind that, I think we've all come to the conclusion we've had enough of this H1B sham and the cost it has on us personally and professionally; namely we build infrastructure and management liquidates our personal and professional development to make a buck. On this particular subject acting in our own self interest is more than justified, and money bombing anti-immigration organizations such as NumbersUSA with tens of millions of dollars so they can heavily lobby congress to get laws signed banning foreign guest workers entirely is would also be a great start.

Re:Unions

[Anonymous Coward]

Unions are an extremely short-term solution to labor issues. Ultimately they get as corrupt as everyone else and lock down the labor market - resulting in increased costs at reduced pay because everyone has to chip in union dues, can't be promoted on merit outside of union-edict, etc. To top it off, it is pure conjecture that they would help even in the short-term since the modes of corrupting unions are pretty well-honed at this point, it would probably take far less time than the electrical and similar unions took to become a drain.

Re:Unions

[Anonymous Coward]

Look at their attack on climate change research and solutions. They don't want to pay for greener energy, and so spend boatloads of money to discredit the idea. And it works, roughly 40% of the population fell for it.

There are far more rich people supporting climate change propaganda than there are denying it.

Re:Unions

[iamacat]

Do recipients of basic income spontaneously go to fix roads and build affordable housing? If not, you are fixing only a symptom of unbalanced labor market and not the problem itself. By putting people to work in public sector, you remove them from competition for private jobs and make it easier for remaining competitors to get good employment terms. Plus, fixing public infrastructure makes private sector stronger, able to support more jobs and offer goods for a smaller portion of average salary.

Re:Unions

[sinij]

Just like Lenin and his following learned that you couldn't build Communism, you too one day will learn that you can't build unregulated supply and demand market for labor.

While your theory sounds nice on paper, practicalities of outsourcing, HB-1 visas, illegal non-poaching agreements, punitive non-compete contract clauses and so on get in the way.

Re:Unions

[Anonymous Coward]

The average person is average and half of the population is below average.

You assume a normal distribution. Because it's really more like a power distribution, 80% of people are below average.

Re:Unions

[Tablizer]

Funny that you don't mention the wealthy left

The wealthy right is larger, especially if you include corporate lobbying and influence peddling, not just individuals. Corporations lobby for things that benefit themselves rather than things that benefit (most) individuals or consumers.

you go off on this tangent about AGW.

It's not a tangent; it's an example of the impact of large amounts of money spent on lobbying and "convincing" the public.

And, I don't see what point your "puppy" statement is trying to make. It appears to be an extreme exaggeration either way. I invite a clarification or re-statement.

Systems Analyst

[Nutria]

The BLS is confusing Software Developer with Systems Analyst.

Re:Systems Analyst

[Tablizer]

I suspect that also.

But one problem is that one should get several years of hands-on experience in programming before becoming an analyst. But if more of it is offshored, then there are fewer chances to get such experience.

You can't just major in "systems analyst" and be good at it out of school. A lot of it is about working with people and business to learn how people communicate ideas, often indirectly, and how they interact with technology and UI's.

Office politics is often a big part of it, and if you don't navigate it well, you are toast. They usually don't teach that in school because it would be admitting humans are ego-driven Dilbertian idiots, and schools feel presenting that reality is beneath them.

Re:Systems Analyst

[Anonymous Coward]

Controlling for people is now normal - how to address it, how to conduct a user experience survey, etc. all CAN be taught and are currently. This simply means IT is no longer the refuge of antisocial people, communications is already the most important skill here too.

Re:Systems Analyst

[Anonymous Coward]

The BLS is confusing Software Developer with Systems Analyst.

The BLS _defines_ these jobs for the U.S. Government. They may not agree with other definitions, but you have to cite another authority for us to compare.

http://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/home.htm

Computer programmers write and test code that allows computer applications and software programs to function properly. They turn the program designs created by software developers and engineers into instructions that a computer can follow.

Bachelor's degree $77,550

Software developers are the creative minds behind computer programs. Some develop the applications that allow people to do specific tasks on a computer or another device. Others develop the underlying systems that run the devices or that control networks.

Bachelor's degree $97,990

Computer systems analysts study an organization’s current computer systems and procedures and design information systems solutions to help the organization operate more efficiently and effectively. They bring business and information technology (IT) together by understanding the needs and limitations of both.

Bachelor's degree $82,710

'Programming' should decline...

[Junta]

Given the distinction described, programmers being just implementation and 'developers' actually understanding the needs and wider context, programmers really should be on the decline, and there shouldn't be room for a 'software developer' to need 'programmers' as time goes on.

Already the divide has been largely responsible for some of the most infuriating software I've had to use. The people actually creating it have no clue about the wider context. Meanwhile you have 'architects' that don't know the first thing about how the code works or can work or most critically how it wouldn't work. Somehow enterprise industry has latched onto the model of 'architect' versus 'implementer' and never shall the two cross and it makes for some terrible software.

Sometimes it makes a mountain out of a molehill (don't need a massive team to maintain what amounts to be a simple script, and often giving it a massive team makes it senselessly more complex) and sometimes it does address some issues of tedium associated with a genuinely complex project. For the first part, people should not confuse 'importance' with 'complexity'. People presume that something very important warrants a large team, which is often wrong. For the latter, the large team may be warranted, but no coders should be exempt from understanding the context for their work. I've seen that last bit happen all the time, to the point of bad coding decisions resulting in the programmer resenting the paying customer for what ultimately is the programmer's lack of understanding the use case rather than the customer 'not being smart enough to deal'.

Re:'Programming' should decline...

[gstoddart]

Given the distinction described, programmers being just implementation and 'developers' actually understanding the needs and wider context, programmers really should be on the decline, and there shouldn't be room for a 'software developer' to need 'programmers' as time goes on.

I have never seen anybody who is this mythical 'programmer' who is some flunky who people hand complete specs to.

Well, that's not true ... at one point my company had outsourced some coding to India. They got shit code, delivered late, badly written, and not conforming with any of the specs. Someone spent so much time micromanaging them and getting them to fix defects it was a full time job.

Pretty much everyone I've ever met, regardless of title, was involved in the full complexity of designing and building solutions based on vague and over broad things which were more like "works kind like this but we're not sure".

Do people really have positions who are the bottom of the rung people who do little more than type it in and compile it? Because I've never met any.

Re:'Programming' should decline...

[Anonymous Coward]

I have not met one, but I have worked at a company that employed some. The company had an offshore team that would be given various task near the end of the US workday and have them finished and returned by the start of the next workday.

Well, that was the idea. Every task that was handed over came back worse than if no one had put any effort into it, so the local developers had to parse, undo, and then correct the overnight code every time.

And for some reason management saw no problem with this approach.

Re:'Programming' should decline...

[pscottdv]

Somehow enterprise industry has latched onto the model of 'architect' versus 'implementer' and never shall the two cross and it makes for some terrible software.

I'm a software architect and I have to fight against this model almost every sprint.

Re:'Programming' should decline...

[Anonymous Coward]

Programmer, hacker, IT person, coder whatever!
At times been all of the above and more but a fancy title really doen't mean much.
Worked for awhile at a company that believed off-shore talent was best.
They layed off most of our programming team, just two of us were left.
In came fancy title H1Bs with BS MS degrees to push our new projects along.
Many months later...
I was asked to shift from my reduced job (I'm sure they were getting ready to get rid of me too) and assist on the great newer project.
They were stuck on some tech detal of programming, writting to hardware and had been spinning wheels for at least three months.
Took about two hours examing there mess, fixed it in the next five minutes !
No, I'm not super human just really good at stuff like that.
When asked what I did I said "Have a good life with your H1B's" I then quit and started my own business!
Should have done that long ago !

Re:'Programming' should decline...

[angel'o'sphere]

My business card says "Software Generalist" ...

Re:'Programming' should decline...

[Kellamity]

My official title at work, according to my SAP record is 'Developer Programmer'...

END THE FED! I saw this coming 30 years ago.

[Anonymous Coward]

Spend some time on Zero Hedge, Lew Rockwell's site, or PCR's site if you want to know that is going on economically. Most of us forecasted the upcoming crash four or five years ago. There has NEVER been any recovery from 2008 much less 2000. All the stats that you are forcefed are blatant LIES designed to keep the populace ignorant and therefore pacified so that they continue on thinking that everything is A-OK. When you remove the signals, the end result becomes much, MUCH worse.

On neofeudalism

On rate hikes

Looking realistically at investments

Short post on the Fed

Re:END THE FED! I saw this coming 30 years ago.

[RenderSeven]

Forgetting 'programmers'/'developers' for a minute - contractors and consultants are leading market indicators since their demand peaks during market instability (both growth and contraction). And, IMHO deep embedded work is a leading indicator for the manufacturing sector since they produce hard goods such as appliances and infrastructure. That said, hourly rates are off FY2000 highs by 40% and are flat since the mid 90's, and there are almost no positions open. The only exception is medical devices where there seems to be a bit of a bubble happening, but the financing for the companies hiring is all highly speculative VC and hedge funds, which is a red flag if you expect a gig to run more than a few months. The contract agencies that place workers are compensating for the fewer positions by increasing markup, from as low as 20% on corp-to-corp basis to upwards of 40%, which they can only get away with by submitting cheap inexperienced workers and marking them way up, which seems to work since hiring managers are more likely than not to be clueless to what the job actually requires, which is in part due to hedge fund weenies placing line managers with inexperienced cronies or cheap imported labor.

The view from down here is there was no recovery from 2000 or 2008, there is no recovery on the horizon, R&D infrastructure is being dismantled, manufacturing is gone, and the engineering job market is in a luge-ride race to the bottom. There's a little money to be made picking the bones or sucking up health care dollars or green energy dollars or whatever is fashionable enough to attract foolish greedy investors, but long term it looks bad to me. I'm getting out... buy into a wood pellet fab or something else that will do well when everyone becomes poor.

Re:END THE FED! I saw this coming 30 years ago.

[Anonymous Coward]

That's odd. I was told by a recruiter yesterday that there are five software positions open for every developer that is looking in the Twin Cities metro area. I'm also seeing wage inflation to go along with those positions.

Where are you living that you're seeing the opposite?

Re:END THE FED! I saw this coming 30 years ago.

[Anonymous Coward]

So you talked to a recruiter, and he tried to sell you a job. I can't tell whether you're serious or a troll. (I guess that you pass the Turolling Test.) But to further your analogy if you're being sarcastic, it's kinda like going to an empty, weedy old used car lot where the cars are "kept in a garage in the back," talking to a used car salesman and having him tell you that you're going to get "top dollar" for that trade-in, but sign on the line first!

Re:END THE FED! I saw this coming 30 years ago.

[DigiShaman]

For many nations, their GDP is based primarily on the service sector of the economy; jobs that primarily local based. With globalism, the following axiom holds true "What can be in-sourced or out-sourced will be!" As Americans for most of us, we're too expensive in the global market! That, combined with our national debt, stagflation will remain until we focus on services and skills that can only benefit a local economy. Learning a craft or skilled trade in grey collar work is your best bet to maintaining a middle class job. You know, work that requires tangible results by human hands. If it's producing a product behind a keyboard, that jobs is in direct competition with the global market, and you can't live off an Indian or Chinese low wage. Not going to happen !!

Re:END THE FED! I saw this coming 30 years ago.

[Anonymous Coward]

Instead of scamming /. why don't you just "short" life, yours in particular

Re:END THE FED! I saw this coming 30 years ago.

[NoImNotNineVolt]

When you remove the signals, the end result becomes much, MUCH worse.

Does it become... noise?

Re:END THE FED! I saw this coming 30 years ago.

[Anonymous Coward]

Stop drooling over PutinHedge. It's not even funny any more.

Re:END THE FED! I saw this coming 30 years ago.

[Anonymous Coward]

24 year old, 1 year of experience, bachelors degree in computer science, in a small city in NYS north of NYC. I applied to 10 software dev jobs 4 months ago. I received 8 offers. I am absolutely no one special. My skill set isn't better than anyone else, my degree isn't from an overly prestigious university, etc.

I understand my experience is anecdotal. But, your analogy doesn't hold up either. If anything a recruiter wants to make you think you have no options, and that you aren't special, so they can negotiate your wage down and make you take their crappy 6 month contract position in Looky Lew, west virginia,

Re:END THE FED! I saw this coming 30 years ago.

[clodney]

I can confirm that hiring talented C++ or Java developers in the Twin Cities area is very difficult. It takes us a long time to fill open positions, and headhunters are calling people everyday. And we are losing people to other firms that routinely offer someone a big bump to switch.

Re:END THE FED! I saw this coming 30 years ago.

[vbraga]

I don't want to be rude, but there's always plenty of junior positions everywhere. You can't really measure the job market by the average number of offers a newly minted graduate has. Even in a somewhat stagnant market, the companies will hire junior people and fire them after a few years to keep the average wage down, so new positions are always available.

Re:END THE FED! I saw this coming 30 years ago.

[Anonymous Coward]

We are having the same problem in Wisconsin. My company is now going to India for Java developers because we can't get them. In Wisconsin there is 1 Java programmer for every 10 Java positions open. The majority of the jobs are in Madison and Milwaukee areas though. Not many people want to move to Central Wisconsin for a Java position. We have been recruiting right from university's locally and training them. Knowing that 1 in 3 will probably leave after 2-3 years of getting some experience. But at that level they don't get paid the "big bucks" so it's a risk. Some will stay some won't but that is the business of IT....

Re:END THE FED! I saw this coming 30 years ago.

[Virtucon]

Hey my family is from Looky Lew WV ! It's a great place for a dead end career.

Re:END THE FED! I saw this coming 30 years ago.

[Anonymous Coward]

You forgot an important data field. Which best describes your salary?: under 40K, under 60K, under 80K, under 100K, under 200K

Re:END THE FED! I saw this coming 30 years ago.

[Duhavid]

We are too expensive.....

No. We are more expensive, sure, but not too expensive.

It is really stupid to allow ( and I'm not talking govt intervention ) all these jobs to flow out and be replaced by "grey market, low wage" jobs.
Who will be the buyers when all these jobs and the wages thereto have been shipped elsewhere?

American Corporations, you are selling your future. You, personally, wont be welcome in the countries you are sending the jobs to, and they will eventually exclude you ( as corporations and people ) from participating, once things hit a certain point.

In the long run, wages will equalize. The countries we are sending the jobs to will gain economic power, political power, and will bring back more authoritarian dealings with people, there will be less personal liberty, less freedom, less happiness.

Sad.

Re: END THE FED! I saw this coming 30 years ago.

[Anonymous Coward]

I've a friend, head ruby developer, all their other developers are in other continents

Re:END THE FED! I saw this coming 30 years ago.

[fluffernutter]

It seems to me if they were truly desperate, they would be looking all over the US, and to import people from Canada. Looking in the next state is hardly trying.

Re:END THE FED! I saw this coming 30 years ago.

[Ryanrule]

Bullshit.

Re:END THE FED! I saw this coming 30 years ago.

[KGIII]

You missed out. The timing was fortunate and I was able to buy a bunch of hard assets in 2007-2009. You're not the only one who's thinking along the lines of what you're thinking (a few friends are actually getting *more* into franchise ownerships, for example) so if you're serious about it then you might want to get in on it soon. Or take a giant leap and play in the market...

Re:END THE FED! I saw this coming 30 years ago.

[mlts]

Don't forget transportation costs. Oil is cheap right now, but that can change. Some mines in the strait of Hormuz, for example. It might be that gas might spike like 2008, and if a 2-3 times jump in price was bad, how about a 10-20x spike, which could happen pretty quickly.

Having the ability to make something or have a trade is good. Yes, the job at punching a button and having Ansible go and do the work is a nice thing... but if the economy tanks to 1929 levels, having a farm and producing or fixing things that people need will be important as well. It might be that one might have to start making 1920s-1960s style tractors and automobiles because access to the latest and greatest chips for ECMs may not be allowed (a China-led trade embargo on the US, perhaps.) In any case, metal shop skills, plumbing, electrician, HVAC, and other items are always needed. You can't offshore the guy who wires up the 120 circuits, nor can you outsource the lawyer who is in the courtroom.

It is wise to have a good "on grid" set of skills, and a good "off-grid" set. Even if one's "off-grid" set of skills is something one wouldn't think about, such as a good musician, entertainer, or teacher. Having the ability to fall back on a community is important, and community, as a whole, is something lacking here in the US (especially with the political races trying their best to wedge and divide everyone.)

Re:END THE FED! I saw this coming 30 years ago.

[david_thornley]

The weather here has a bad reputation. Aside from that, it's a very good place to live.

Re: END THE FED! I saw this coming 30 years ago.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not sure what you're talking about, I'm recruited in 3 markets (Texas, North East and CA) every week between 3-6 jobs, but I have a great job now so I haven't jumped. I would say the cream rises and doesn't see the same problems. If you're good at what you do the outlook is different.

Re: END THE FED! I saw this coming 30 years ago.

[JosephWilliamCarson]

Which just verifies what the last AC said.

Re: END THE FED! I saw this coming 30 years ago.

[Marxist Hacker 42]

$200,000 a year and you can get anybody you need. If you cannot pay that, you have want, not need.

Not bloody likely

[iamacat]

Everybody tried outsourcing and realized that it doesn't work. Creating a great product requires creativity and each contributor capable of saying no to superiors and standing up for their improvements to the solution. This mind set does not yet exist much outside Silicon Valley, let alone USA and huge lifestyle disparity between american bosses and outsourced coders would not allow it to flourish.

By the time developing countries have the kind of talent in greater quality/quantity than US, labor will not be that cheap anymore because employees will know their worth. At that point, I will just move there.

Re:Not bloody likely

[sinij]

Outsourcing does work, for some definitions of work.

In my mind there is no question that outsourcing results in inferior work that translates in less secure, less robust product. None of this matters, as long as it is still possible/acceptable to blanket-absolve any corporate responsibility for software product flaws. In software quality doesn't seem to matter, as a consequence outsourcing will continue prospering. Change that, and the jobs might come home.

Re:Not bloody likely

[ADRA]

Outsourcing can and does produce as good if not better software. The problem is that unless you're very familiar with said outsourcing organization, you're essentially rolling the dice between horrible results and amazing results per dollar spent. If this sounds exactly like hiring an any regular employee, then you're exactly right. All HR related work needs to be adjudicated properly or you're risking your business viability. Given that giant American mega-corps haven't fallen into ruin, it seems like they're doing an ok job ramping up outsourcing work without significantly damaging their profitability -yet-.

1. Most developers work at companies that don't give a fuck about computers, developers, releases, etc.. They just want to make money, and IT is a cost.
2. A large number of developers feel that their work is important and that they're unique butterflies (and when you leave your company everything's just going to fall off the wheels and go to hell). Most of them are wrong.
3. We've had a great run for the last several decades, but we aren't guaranteed to be high-tier job prospects forever. I'd be miserable being a hardware engineer these days, since so much of it has been fleeing to China for the last 10 years or so (at least the low ended work) .. Software from what I've seen has mostly weathered the storm, but it certainly isn't immune to becoming *shock* commoditized like so many industries before it. That doesn't see the end of the industry, but certainly an adjustment.

Re:Not bloody likely

[sinij]

Outsourcing can and does produce as good if not better software.

People can and do win lottery. In my experience, outsourcing to China and India results in a quality drop. Indian teams tend to practice cowboy coding and are more comfortable releasing without robust testing. Chinese teams tend to value seniority and rigid hierarchy, as such problems that are discovered are not communicated and as a result go unaddressed. Sure, all of this can happen without outsourcing, but outsourcing makes it a lot more likely.

Re:Not bloody likely

[Anonymous Coward]

A good analogy might be found in the movie industry. At one point, many large scale, average to low budget dramas could only be done in the Eastern Europe. The country was changed as a function of cost and execution. Animation is routinely outsourced to Asia with similar constraints. Perhaps in the future many programmers work in the coffee shops while dreaming of being discovered for a lucrative future.

Creating a great product requires creativity and each contributor capable of saying no to superiors and standing up for their improvements to the solution.

This sounds like a contractor network type of work organization used in some building industries would be good for software as well. The difference is that such a network always has the government inspection and quality control processes behind it, while the software industry generally lacks them.

Re:Not bloody likely

[Anonymous Coward]

And here I was under the assumption that as a programmer in Sweden I was pretty damn lucky with great benefits and good management that treats me like a person and value my input. Guess I need to work for Google or Apple to see what it really means to have some pride in my work.

Re:Not bloody likely

[goruka]

It's not likely, it's a fact. I work in South America (Buenos Aires) and there are dozens of thousand software developers and companies that work for companies in the US. As with everything, some are attractive because they have excellent track records and some are attractive because they are cheap (they are bidding on their first projects so they can work for lower wages).
I myself ran companies that outsourced jobs from over there successfuly. Large companies like IBM, Oracle, Microsoft, etc. even hire people from here to manage teams from India. If there is such a huge outsourcing industry here, the same in the rest of the world must be huge.

I think most Americans believe only a small amount of work is outsourced to foreign countries, but I'm pretty sure most US investment in software projects is not even done in US ground.

Re:Not bloody likely

[Art3x]

Indian teams tend to practice cowboy coding

With our westward expansion we eradicated the unique culture of --- wait, what?

the numbers

[Anonymous Coward]

will be a long time before we run of out punjabis.

It's a disgrace...

[Anonymous Coward]

Hr1B VISAs need to be removed. Period. End of Story.
Trump has it correct.

CAP === 'amplify'

100% fatal starvation 100% preventable

[Anonymous Coward]

we can count on us?

So I was right all along the other day... apk

[Anonymous Coward]

See subject & this post -> http://yro.slashdot.org/commen...

* :(

(Glad I'm semi-retired - things aren't looking so great on the coding front as they used to apparently...)

APK

P.S.=> Like I said in the link above: "Follow the money" - it's the answer to 99/100 questions in some way... apk

The decline of the american dev

[bazmail]

Why are you guys trying to create more coders with your new K-12 core subject? All that shit is being off-shored now. And thats before you look at the H1-B situation. You'd be better off flipping burgers. lol

Re:The decline of the american dev

[Anonymous Coward]

burger flippers can't afford all that new expensive software being written offshore.

What am I?

[freak0fnature]

Am I a programmer? Am I a Software Developer? Maybe I'm a Software Engineer! Maybe a software architect... honestly I can't tell anymore

Re:What am I?

[Anonymous Coward]

Im a DBA.

My job is to wait for all of the above to blame the database for the shitty and rushed code it's producing explain plan's from hell to try and manage the workload.

Re:What am I?

[sinij]

Am I a programmer? Am I a Software Developer? Maybe I'm a Software Engineer! Maybe a software architect... honestly I can't tell anymore

Thus went Bob's from accounting existential crisis.

Re:What am I?

[Drethon]

Code Monkey

Re:What am I?

[Anonymous Coward]

Douche-bag-asshole?

Surely you are not that bad.

Re:What am I?

[Anonymous Coward]

that which will be replaced by ever cheaper foreign labor.

Re:What am I?

[halivar]

Post execution plans with wait stats somewhere the devs can see. Call it the "Wall of Shame".

Re:What am I?

[Anonymous Coward]

Am I a programmer? Am I a Software Developer? Maybe I'm a Software Engineer! Maybe a software architect... honestly I can't tell anymore

If you can no longer tell: You're a software developer.

Re:What am I?

[houstonbofh]

Meat popsicle...

Re:What am I?

[JustNiz]

I dont mind being called any of those things, just please dont call me a coder.

Re:What am I?

[DigiShaman]

Do you even MBA bro?!

HR: So, what do you do?
Job Seeker: I MBA

HR: How long have you been doing it?
Job Seeker: I've been MBA-ing for several years now.

HR: Are you certified to code and develop?
Job Seeker: My MBA-ing allows me to certify an anything you need me too. So if I don't got it, I can get it!

HR: YOUR PERFECT!!! Can you start...yesterday?!!!

Re:What am I?

[Anonymous Coward]

It doesn't matter, because you will likely be stuck doing 2 or 3 jobs when HR can't decide what the qualifications should be.

I had an IT job where I did some tech support, some database admin, and some network admin, and they classified me as "Programmer/Analyst" despite the fact that I did little programming and even less analysis. It was just the closest title available to HR that would fit!

Re:What am I?

[Anonymous Coward]

You're DevOps! I'm not sure which batallion of DevOps you are (I haven't asked you), but you are most certainly DevOps! BTW, when you go code sniping, do you dress all in black, or does it require a different kind of outfit?

Re:What am I?

[Anonymous Coward]

Am I a programmer? Am I a Software Developer? Maybe I'm a Software Engineer! Maybe a software architect... honestly I can't tell anymore

If you want the BLS opinion, it's right here.

http://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/home.htm

Re:What am I?

[Anonymous Coward]

My boss uses the term "code monkey".

Re:What am I?

[Anonymous Coward]

> My boss uses the term "code monkey".

Would your boss happen to be Boring Manager Rob?

Re:What am I?

[Duhavid]

"Do you even MBA bro?!

HR: So, what do you do?
Job Seeker: I MBA

HR: How long have you been doing it?
Job Seeker: I've been MBA-ing for several years now.

HR: Are you certified to code and develop?
Job Seeker: My MBA-ing allows me to certify an anything you need me too. So if I don't got it, I can get it!

HR: YOUR PERFECT!!! Can you start...yesterday?!!!"

Job Seeker: I started last month, where is my check?

Translation:

[Anonymous Coward]

Jobs for Programmers and Software Developers who are U.S. Citizens will decline by 8%, while lower-paying jobs for H1-B Programmers and Software Developers will increase by 8%

Go ahead, foreign nationals, mod me down, I DARE YOU, you're just proving my point for me.

MEMO TO ASSHOLE CORPORATIONS: Stop screwing over U.S. Citizens!

Re:Translation:

[Opportunist]

Huh? Why should they stop screwing over U.S. Citizens? What's special about that type of consumer?

What makes you think any corporation gives half a shit about any country? Or the people living there?

Re:Translation:

[Anonymous Coward]

Huh? Why should they stop screwing over U.S. Citizens?

Maybe because we'll drag their fat asses out into the streets and burn them alive, for helping destroy the U.S. economy? The bleeding-heart liberals haven't managed to take our guns away from us yet, which is good, we'll need them if there needs to be Civil War 2.

Re:Translation:

[Opportunist]

Cute. He thinks that his gun will allow him to fight the country with the largest standing army and the biggest arsenal on the planet.

It's kinda adorable.

Re:Translation:

[Anonymous Coward]

It worked out pretty well for the Afghanis.

Re:Translation:

[goose-incarnated]

Cute. He thinks that his gun will allow him to fight the country with the largest standing army and the biggest arsenal on the planet.

It's kinda adorable.

Kinda like the middle-east conflicts, which have all been resolved since the introduction of the largest standing army and the biggest arsenal on the planet into poverty-stricken areas which had only guns and improvised weapons....

(I love the smell of sarcasm in the morning)

Re:Translation:

[Anonymous Coward]

Assuming you mean when the USSR was there? The Afghanis were losing when all they had was guns. Once they got Stingers and anti-tank RPGs the tide turned.

I don't think you can buy either of those down at Dick's Sporting Goods. In fact, the guys most likely to have them will be the guys you're up against.

Double Plus Good

[Crashmarik]

Great to see the 5 year plan to increase the number of programmers is already paying off. Time to push for more STEM.

Open Source to blame, sort of

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been telling you guys that's what's happening. Companies these days make products or for internal use by throwing together a bunch of open source software, rarely making a contributions in either case. It used to be just system integrators but now it's everybody.

That's the new model.

What's exacerbating things now is that so few people give a shit about the GPL these days, preferring other licenses that are easier to work with, as the goal of Open Source has transited from sharing to cost cutting.

Re:Open Source to blame, sort of

[Chrisq]

I've been telling you guys that's what's happening. Companies these days make products or for internal use by throwing together a bunch of open source software, rarely making a contributions in either case. It used to be just system integrators but now it's everybody.

That's the new model.

What's exacerbating things now is that so few people give a shit about the GPL these days, preferring other licenses that are easier to work with, as the goal of Open Source has transited from sharing to cost cutting.

What you say is true, but I think less than half of the problem - in fact the fact that they don't contribute the solutions back leaves more tech work to do. The main issue is that the "cobbling together" is often outsourced to an overseas company that pays way under a Western country's minimum wage.

Who modded this Troll?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey moderator, why don't you go pour gasoline all over yourself and start welding in a shower of sparks? You would be doing yourself a favor, troll mod.

Re:Who modded this Troll?

[Anonymous Coward]

way offtopic, got what you deserved

Re:Who modded this Troll?

[Anonymous Coward]

His reply to the moo moo post did not address OP's concerns.

In The Beginning

[Anonymous Coward]

Ego Dude:
I think
I think I am
Therefore I am
I think

The Main:
Of course you are my bright little star
I've miles and miles of files
Pretty files of your forefather's fruit
and now to suit, our great computer
You're magnetic ink

Ego Dude:
I'm more than that, I know I am
At least, I think I must be

Id Dude:
There you go man, keep as cool as you can
Face piles and piles of trials with smiles
It riles them to believe
That you perceive the web they weave
And keep on thinking free

Street Fightin' Man!

H1B Demand

[Anonymous Coward]

Quick! We need more H1Bs to fill the gap caused by people who will be persuaded by the data to skip a CS education.

Therefore

[Anonymous Coward]

We should decline H1B's by >8%

That can only mean

[Opportunist]

that the US is going to kick out 8% of the people working in programming jobs in the US who are only there on H1B visa, right?

Right?

but....talent shortage!!!! talent shortage!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't tell me the big mouths lied to us about the talent shortage! /sarc

get income based student loan repayment

[Joe_Dragon]

income based student loan repayment plans are good even if you get a job for a few years then you are replied by an H1B then they can't touch your mc job min wage pay.

Good News

[byteherder]

Good news everyone.

Though the number programming job is in the U.S. will fall 8% in the next decade, the number of programming jobs in New Delhi will rise 120%

Re:Good News

[angel'o'sphere]

Very unlikely, New Delhi is a smog infested industrial city and the "silicon valley" of India is Bangalore ;D
And: the numbers make no sense. India likely has already more developers than the USA ... even if you total up the 8% drop of a whole country on a single city, it is not likely that you reach 120% increase in that city.

jobs

[Anonymous Coward]

Different guy here, though I'm a contractor. Actually, there are plenty of jobs. I also get lots of calls from staffing agents for jobs I can fill that I don't have time for because I'm already employed. As soon as one contract ends I quickly am placed into another one, and my contracts last 1 - 1 1/2 years. I haven't had any trouble keeping this up for the last ten years. This past year I received multiple actual offers that I had to turn down.

Re:jobs

[Anonymous Coward]

Different AC than the previous:

I had the shitty luck of graduating college in December of 2008. I wound up bouncing from contract job to contract job, each lasting about 2-2.5 years. Usually the places tell you the contract is ongoing, then shitcan you suddenly, so it is always good to keep the job market contacts. However, even with that, it isn't too difficult to find work without having too much financial panic, as of today's economy.

There are different tiers of work. Contracting is common, but it is something to do when the economy is at a relative high (as it is right now.) If there are -any- worries, the contractors will be out on their derriere in a heartbeat, no matter how good you are. At the peak, it is good to start finding stable work, because once the economy starts sliding, everyone and their brother will be looking for those "gub'mint" [sic] jobs.

As for work right now, the day that I heard rumblings about layoffs at a previous employer, I got the ball rolling, and was interviewing the day I was laid off. So, jobs are out there, at least in my backwards part of the world. Hint: I live in a state where "stump breaking" is legal, but possessing more than four dildos is a state jail felony. Even in this flyover state, if you can spell "ansible", you can find a job.

Even here, I had plenty of bites on my line, although a number of employers were playing stupid games. One interviewer questioned why I don't have a full beard (real reason is that my facial hair is too patchy to pull off the hipster look), as all the other candidates had full manes. My answer, "A gas mask won't seal around facial hair."

Even now that I am gainfully employed, I still get calls from the top tier recruiters. Yes, there are tiers:

The lowest tier is when Kumar calls (he always calls and sends an E-mail), with a bumdung job requiring a CCIE, 2-3 months in Elbonia, no reloc assistance, and $20 an hour, and you would be subcontracting under Tata or Infosys. These are the jobs that not even the H-1Bs would take.

Second after that is contract work for staffing agencies, basically because it is cheaper to hire you than an H-1B. I've wound up with them before... benefits are slim pickings, and when a client says "fin", they give you the boot as well (no help in finding another stint with them). Better than nothing, but you will -not- get raises unless they see that your linkedin profile is growing, and you are successfully wooing others.

From there is contract to hire. Lets be real here. A year ago, the "to hire" part was real. Now, you are a contractor, and they will be dangling the "permanent employee" bit in front of you. I was stupid enough to believe those jackasses in the past and work at a hostile job longer than I should have. Treat this job as a contract job, and bail the second you find greener pastures elsewhere.

From there is direct hire to a dot-com 2.0 company promising growth via ad dollars or aggregate info sharing. A lot of the places I interviewed at were these, and you can tell that they are not going to be around for the long haul... because being able to stuff every task into Docker was more important to them than ITIL or other common sense guidelines. When I was asked how to do put Oracle RAC instances in Docker containers, I laughed at the interviewer and remarked that it might be cool to tow an 80,000 pound load with a modded Prius... but it is a lot safer and better all around to use the proper type 8 truck to do that.

From that, are real companies. Ones that make products. No, they may not be as common as the ones selling "growth", or having their entire operations be on Amazon's cloud or OpenStack [1]. These companies will have their ups and downs, but with the hemorrhaging from offshoring manufacturing starting to wind down, they likely will withstand an economic contraction, and you should be able to weather an economic storm... or have a good chance of having a chance of still having a job. Amazon is only going to grow, A

Great Time to Be a Programmer

[Kagato]

The BLS stats miss the point.

1) The ability to off-shore programming jobs has been a reality for 20 years. It's done nothing but increase my bill rate. Here's the deal. Accenture, IBM, Wipro, etc come in to take care of all the IT needs. On paper the costs are cheaper. Five years later the companies that did off-shore development are typically very unhappy with their work product. Too much re-work, not enough velocity of code getting into prod. Once a offshore company has your entire IT process they can turn the screws and increase bill rates.

I come in with teams that kick out the off-shore units, clean house and usually within a year the problem we have is our backlog doesn't have enough work. We're just too efficient. The reason it's increased my bill rate is companies pulled back from college hire programs. It really creates a problem keeping experience developers in the pipeline. I don't have much competition domestically because the ivy league MBAs that decided to offshore decided not to invest in the next generation workforce. I laugh all the way to the bank.

2) Start Up Factor. You don't need to get hired to make money programing. There are hundreds of thousands of developers making money by releasing their own apps.

Re:Great Time to Be a Programmer

[__aaclcg7560]

I come in with teams that kick out the off-shore units, clean house and usually within a year the problem we have is our backlog doesn't have enough work. We're just too efficient.

I've done that for I.T. support work. The previous help desk company got caught generating unnecessary tickets to increase billing. The Fortune 500 company kicked them out and brought in the company I worked for. We were given 90 days to clean up a 900+ ticket queue, and got it done in 30 days. A year later the Great Recession kicked in. We were told to do the same level of work for half the cost. I got laid off because I was too efficient. Given the choice of firing three people or firing me, I got the boot because it was easier to lay off one person. Wasn't long before the company got replaced with another company that could do the work for half the cost with fewer people, which would later get replaced for generating unnecessary tickets to increase billing.

Re:Great Time to Be a Programmer

[Ryanrule]

That's why I only do an hour or 2 of real work a week.

Re:Great Time to Be a Programmer

[__aaclcg7560]

Most of my jobs are like that. Only Google kept me busy for 8+ hours a day.

dishawashers of the future

[Anonymous Coward]

I keep saying this. In 20 years, compilers and languages will evolve to the point that software engineers will not be needed anymore. It is a dead career path for any kids today. It's sad. But it is the ultimate truth. C level execs want to make costs lower. That means that there will be demand for simpler languages and a plethora of people that can use them. Increase the supply of coders and reduce the demand (through better languages requiring a lower time cost) and you end up with cheap labor. It will be the first "engineering" field to end in unionization. it will have to in order to give meaningful salaries to those suckers stuck in this career.

Re:dishawashers of the future

[guruevi]

People have been saying that since Fortran on punch cards and the 90's brought plenty of languages that allow any simpleton to 'program'. Between Logo, BASIC, HyperCard, JavaScript, Python etc I don't know how much simpler you can make it.

Re:dishawashers of the future

[NormalVisual]

This. The problem isn't that languages aren't expressive, intuitive, or simple enough, it's that the overall problem of distilling a general and sometimes nebulous set of requirements into a fundamental specific sequence of actions for a computer isn't something that can be defined as a general algorithm. The human brain can't even get it right much of the time, and its processing ability far exceeds that of any computer.

Re:dishawashers of the future

[guruevi]

The other problem is that most people couldn't logic their way out of a square box if their life depended on it. Most people don't know the difference between shall/none/and/or/whenever/if/else in even plain human language and can't think about the repercussions of actions two or three steps down the line. All that is necessary to be a programmer regardless of language, you have to be able to visualize or reason through several steps and ever widening branches of dependent logic.

I am part of a club with about 100+ people that elect their leadership. Most people didn't understand these simple steps:
"7 people are required to be in the leadership"; "If less people are running for leadership than required, the elections will continue as normal"; "If less than the required number of people are elected, then the next leadership will decide how to fill the empty seats". During the elections, some people dropped out and the number of elected officials would've been less than 7. People panicked and deducted that situation somehow wasn't covered by these rules and called for a special vote to replace the dropouts.

Re:dishawashers of the future

[angel'o'sphere]

Because, it is not simple?

* software is running in a cloud
* in that cloud I have a few XXX* MySQL databases
* in that cloud I have WWW* web servers
* in that cloud I have NNN* nodes of business logic
* in that cloud I have CCC* big data NoSQL data stores

(*)Insert your numbers for XXX, WWW, NNN, CCC

The web servers are either Java/JSP/JSF or the .Net equivalent, they either run Linux or Windows, or are in fact VMs on an IBM Mainframe. The business logic nodes are JBosses, or Weblogic or SAP WebSphere containers, below that you might have either MySQL Databases or Oracle or something with stored procedures in PSQL. Besides that you have NoSQL data storage/processing like Hadoop, Spark, Cassandra programmed and queried in JavaScript.

HyperCard would be cool in our days if it had a decent programming language, like NovoCard for iPads (which uses JavaScript)

JavaScript actually is a more complex language than Java/C# ... no idea why you throw it into the mix of: simple!

For all that above you need build and test environments ... developers that "speak" minimum 2 if not 3 and if you include shell scripting 4 languages.

The technology stack I usually work with has two dozens of stuff that you would call "buzz words", however, we work with that stuff, like Docker, vmware, Linux, JBoss, Java/JavaScript/Groovy/Scala, Tomcat, Apache, Spark/Hadoop, Cassandra, MySQL, Bash/ksh, Jenkins (CI/CD), maven/ant/ivy etc.

Modern day software development is not "simple" ... the amount of annotations for Java alone is mind boggeling, try to teach that to a student simply trying to learn a programming language.

Re:dishawashers of the future

[guruevi]

But in the end it's just a computer running a combination of relatively simple software. Putting it in the cloud sure adds complexity but it's just Linux machines running Java/C/Python programs which you could also run 'at home' or you could switch to a different stack that does the same thing.

I haven't worked with Docker much but it's similar to Chroot/Jails/Containers and I know how to work with those and working with Docker is thus not all that complex (or necessary IMHO but buzz words seem to drive the industry). Any developer that has difficulties switching stacks is quite honestly not good at their job, that's what makes a developer a good developer is the ability to adapt and think about their programs in such terms that it doesn't matter what you write in it. Sure each language has it's oddities but if it's documented (unlike .NET), it's something you look up and manage.

Re:dishawashers of the future

[angel'o'sphere]

Docker is more than a chroot as each container can have its own IP addresses etc. so you can make a mini network of a few Docker containers. I guess other light weight containers can do the same.

Regarding simple: you find all this simple because you work with it since years or decades. For a newbie from the university that is not simple.

Everything is simple when you have enough experience ... especially if you learn to approach "complicated" stuff in a simple way (instead as in a complex way).

We could learn a lot from PharmD's

[ErichTheRed]

I'm not discounting what pharmacists do -- they know more about drugs than most doctors. I am saying that they have a very nice, protected work life, the entry into the field and licensure is limited to keep supply low, and demand is high; you can go anywhere you want and get a pharmacy job. If I could tell "19-year-old Me" anything, it would be to study hard and get a job in s profession, rather than fight tooth and nail for the last remaining IT or developer jobs.

The reason CVS and the like haven't removed pharmacists from the stores, beyond liability reasons, is the fact that pharmacy is a licensed profession. It's a profession with a strong political lobby, just like doctors have and lawyers had. (The ABA sold out the legal profession by flooding the job market and allowing offshoring.) This serves as a very important lesson to techies everywhere -- even if you don't form a "union", which I think wouldn't work, we need to work together to stop things like H-1B abuses, offshoring of critical work, and rampant incompetency in the software and systems "profession." I've said it before, IT people and developers need to pool their resources, set up an engineering-style profession, and buy a few favorable laws. I don't know whypeople are so opposed to this - every large company pays for legislation, including laws that reduce employment and salaries for IT/dev.

I think it would be a huge step forward:
- No more idiot snake oil consultants selling magic tools -- I do systems management and can't even count the number of dashboards, data aggregators, etc. that are super-simple tools, get bought for 6-figures, and end up shelfware.
- Salary progression over a whole career, not just the under-40 part.
- Real training (not vendor propaganda)
- While there will always be different levels of talent, the idea of not working with complete morons fresh out of coder bootcamp or vendor certification academies is very appealing.

Re:We could learn a lot from PharmD's

[mrchaotica]

I'm not discounting what pharmacists do -- they know more about drugs than most doctors. I am saying that they have a very nice, protected work life, the entry into the field and licensure is limited to keep supply low, and demand is high; you can go anywhere you want and get a pharmacy job. If I could tell "19-year-old Me" anything, it would be to study hard and get a job in s profession, rather than fight tooth and nail for the last remaining IT or developer jobs.

...

I've said it before, IT people and developers need to pool their resources, set up an engineering-style profession, and buy a few favorable laws.

That's not always true. For example, I was on track to become a licensed professional civil engineer, but bailed to become a software "engineer" because the pay is much better. (Hopefully I might still be able to get my PE license since I work on CAD/BIM/structural analysis software and my supervisor is a PE, but I'm not sure.)

IMO, the real strategy is to take advantage of the high earnings while they last, live frugally, and retire at 40 or so.

Re:We could learn a lot from PharmD's

[TsuruchiBrian]

What about designing and writing software? Isn't that supposed to be what software developers do? If you are not doing that are instead doing all that other stuff you mentioned, then I would argue that you weren't really doing software development. No wonder it sucked.

Re:We could learn a lot from PharmD's

[fisf]

This serves as a very important lesson to techies everywhere -- even if you don't form a "union", which I think wouldn't work, we need to work together to stop things like H-1B abuses, offshoring of critical work, and rampant incompetency in the software and systems "profession." I've said it before, IT people and developers need to pool their resources, set up an engineering-style profession, and buy a few favorable laws.

This of course implies that you can effectively control offshoring for an activitiy that does not require physical presence in your country ("coding") to a pharmacy. Around here selling of most drugs is actually only permitted in person. Most unions specifically concern professions that operate in a physically restricted market. If your job can just plainly leave your country or continent, what you are describing is basically counterproductive. The kind of laws that you want to lobby for are benefits for IT people and companies (free and better education of talent, tax exempts. research grants, start-up funding, etc.)

Re:We could learn a lot from PharmD's

[pepty]

the entry into the field and licensure is limited to keep supply low, and demand is high;

The entry into the field (PharmD graduates) has almost doubled this century, so it's not very limited anymore.

Re:We could learn a lot from PharmD's

[Anonymous Coward]

"The reason CVS and the like haven't removed pharmacists from the stores, beyond liability reasons, is the fact that pharmacy is a licensed profession. It's a profession with a strong political lobby, just like doctors have and lawyers had."

The pharmacist lobby is weak. Doctors hate pharmacists. The AMA successfully lobbied for laws so that only MDs could write prescriptions, despite the fact that even the worst pharmacist knows much more about drugs--from the organic chemistry to practical concerns like side effects--than most doctors.

If the medical doctor lobby could screw over pharmacists like that, I wouldn't be surprised if CVS, et al, lobbied to slowly dismantle regulations necessitating the employment of pharmacists. Once upon a time most pharmacies were sole proprietorships owned & managed by a pharmacist. Now the vast majority of pharmacies are run by corporations.

Corporations will try to steam-roll medical doctors, too. Increasingly doctors are kowed to administrative personnel and ultimately to business concerns. Nonetheless, medical doctors are still in a much more powerful position than pharmacists are now or ever have been.

Plus, while most of the talk about A.I. in medicine is hype, doubtless pharmacists will be the first to be replaced by software, regardless of whether such software constitutes A.I.

Tarrifs

[rsilvergun]

the end of work visas. Public Education to train local talent. Requirements to hire local talent. You use Unions to lobby gov't and organize voting blocks that can stand up to the corps dollars. You also use Unions to get information out there to voting blocks so people know how to vote. Look at the AARP for a good example of a political organization that protects it's members interests. Their the reason the Right Wing hasn't been able to defund Medicare.

It's a "you can go home, but you can't take the ball" approach to politics. If the corps want to leave they can. The fact is they _don't_ want to leave. The want the best of everything. Hell, they just plain want _everything_ for themselves. That's why it's called Winner Take All. America has more than enough wealth. We've been giving it away to the 1% out of some misplaced notion that if e don't give it up the other guy will take it. Stop that.

Re:Tarrifs

[DigiShaman]

Well don't get your hopes up. Sanders is a feckless rug to be walked over by congress, and Trump is the worm that turns. Sorry to be a downer, but I'm holding out for much change from the bought-and-paid-for "Democracy".

Re:Tarrifs

[vel-ex-tech]

Well don't get your hopes up. Sanders is a feckless rug to be walked over by congress

That may be true. It would still be a powerful message to the political establishment.

Sure, Congress can override vetos and fail to propose bills in line with Sanders' goals. SCOTUS can rule things unconstitutional. However, I would hope that would mean that certain incumbents would find themselves out of a job and that the several states might move forward will calling for a constitutional convention.

Then again, I've been saying for a while that the ballot box, jury box, and soap box may very well all be broken at this point. Things will get interesting in a bad way, since that leaves only one box left.

Skip the plumber

[rsilvergun]

they'll train up for that too if the prices get too high. There are already laws in place to bring cheap blue collar labor in from overseas; mostly in corrupt right wing states in the South but their spread.

Go into medicine. It's the last field that still has a Union (the AMA, who's smart enough to not call themselves a Union).

Re: Skip the plumber

[msoftsucks]

The AMA is no friend of the doctor. It has consistently sold out the doctor and hasn't reflected their interests for many years. They have rolled over time and time again, and the individual physician has been consistently hurt. They have supported and allowed laws to pass that pretty much makes it illegal for the doctor to have any say in what happens to them. The recent push to automate and force doctors to use EMRs is nothing but an attempt to help insurance carriers. EMRs do nothing to improve patient care or help doctors improve their business. Insurance carriers can and do perform audits at ONE TENTH the costs before the use of EMRs. Because of the AMA, there has been a wholesale transfer of wealth from the doctors to the insurance carriers. It is fair to say that the AMA has been bought lock, stock and barrel by the insurance carriers.

Re:Skip the plumber

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah, you mean the so-called "right to work" states. It's amazing how a carefully chosen phrase can dup so many people. Most people probably don't even realize that closed shops (i.e. what "right to work" was attacking) was made illegal in 1947. Thus, in all 50 states it's illegal to require an employee to join a union, or for bargaining contracts to require a company to only hire union employees.

But, whatever. There's no stopping the hoards of poor whites from turning America into a third-world country. Nevermind that Germany and Austria, the two countries with perhaps the most powerful industrial unions, _dominate_ the world of industrial manufacturing.

Less taxes and fewer regulations pretty much describes every poor country around the world. Do Trump's xenophobes ever think about what Mexicans and Central Americans are running away from? Do they think they're running away from high-tax, high-regulation countries? Even communist countries fail not because of the taxes and regulations, per se, but because of black market economies that emerge to subvert the taxes and regulations. When people start turning to black markets and overt corruption runs rampant, _then_ I'll begin worrying about the overall tax and regulatory burden. In the meantime, I'll focus on the particulars of taxes and regulations, on a case-by-case basis.

You're completely missing the point

[rsilvergun]

You need 1 software developer to manage a team of programmers and feed them requirements. This is a genuine drop in middle class American jobs due to outsourcing. There will be a small increase in the folks who manage the Indians and give them their marching orders...

Re:You're completely missing the point

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, you need 2 software developers to manage a team of programmers to achieve half of what 1 software developer could do if he was allowed to develop, not manage.

Re:You're completely missing the point

[Anonymous Coward]

Anyone who needs to be feed requirements is probably disposable. Our team is pretty much DevOps. We gather requirements, architect, design, implement, deploy, and support all of our projects. Every person on the team is capable of doing everything. A small team like this can run circles around most.

It works peachy

[rsilvergun]

when you do what the summary suggests: Hire some local folks to feed the requirements to the offshore guys. The rank and file coder that used to make a decent wage is what's going to drop 8%. Those are a lot of middle class jobs going *poof*...

You all got trolled

[Anonymous Coward]

From TFA:

The government counted 328,600 computer programmers in 2014, but over the next 10 years this number is expected to decline by 8% or 26,500 jobs. ...
Software developers, the largest occupational group in IT, which employs 1.11 million, will increase by 17% or 186,600, over this period.

26,500 loss in "programmers" versus 186,600 gain in "developers". Ooh, what a tragedy.

Guess what, people? You all got trolled. It's funny to see the usual "dey tuk ar jerbs" and "join a union so Jimmy Hoffa can break your kneecaps" types spew out their usual drivel though. Ha!

Typical MBAs

[Anonymous Coward]

Attempt to create a distinction where there is none, thereby making it seem like they have less of something than they actually have.

Hey mod! Lick my butt!

[Anonymous Coward]

butt butt butt

Re: Short term: change title from programmer to de

[Billly Gates]

And why couldn't a robot vending machine do your job? It would be a lot cheaper

Re: Short term: change title from programmer to de

[Billly Gates]

I can find an Indian willing to do your job for 60k. 220k is too much money for a non executive position and a welder who is skilled can work in the oil fields for 100k

Re: Short term: change title from programmer to de

[Billly Gates]

Very difficult. For the 1st embarrassing time of my career I got demoted back. I kept pointing to problems and solutions which is what us non professional managerial types do. I made very powerful enemy's who wanted to be told what to hear and stressed myself crazy. It's not for everyone

Re: Short term: change title from programmer to de

[Billly Gates]

Dude I was told on Slashdot to change my major from computer information systems to business as by 2015 no one would program anymore. WORST mistake EVER! If grads with 0 years experience can pull 70k while managers with 10 years pull 55k I think that advise is full of it if you don't mind me saying so

Re: Short term: change title from programmer to de

[Anonymous Coward]

This is already happening in Canada: http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/montreal/quebec-pharmacists-granted-more-power-by-government-1.3121547

Re: Short term: change title from programmer to de

[Anonymous Coward]

My wife is a pharmacist. I think you underestimate what a pharmacist contributes to the equation. A pharmacy tach does not usually have the same problem solving ability as a tech. The education requirement for a PharmD vs a tech isn't remotely comparable.

Re: Short term: change title from programmer to de

[Anonymous Coward]

You lost me at Brogrammers.
Why not just scream cisgendered asshole at everyone?

Go be a profession victim somewhere else, the rest of us don't want to talk to someone who's head is completely up their own gigantic ass.

Re: Short term: change title from programmer to de

[Anonymous Coward]

Pharmacy tech vs Pharmacist...
Learn the difference.

Re: Short term: change title from programmer to de

[Anonymous Coward]

A robot can't answer questions about the drug, evaluate whether or not it's right do the patient beyond what the MD knows, and legally every Rx in the county has to be handled by a pharmacist, even when counted by a robot.

Re: Short term: change title from programmer to de

[Opportunist]

Yes, that's a beginner's mistake. We all did that. It's a learning process.

What you have to learn is who is the biggest fish in the pond and then simply latch on to him, nod when he nods and you're set. For about a month you have a hard time shaving without cutting your throat because you can't stand that asshole looking back at you from the mirror, but it gets better at the end of the month when the paycheck arrives.

Now stop H1-B visas?

[Anonymous Coward]

It is time to stop programmers and software tech jobs in general from being replaced with H-1B visa immigrants... The outsourcing is commerce. And it swings back and forth. But H-1B visa use is for when there are no domestic qualified workers. We have plenty of unemployed in the software tech fields.

Re: Short term: change title from programmer to de

[ranton]

My wife is a pharmacist. I think you underestimate what a pharmacist contributes to the equation. A pharmacy tach does not usually have the same problem solving ability as a tech. The education requirement for a PharmD vs a tech isn't remotely comparable.

I've worked with a lot of pharmacy techs and pharmacists, and agree completely that their level of education and problem solving capabilities are not remotely comparable. That is absolutely not in question here. The question is merely are pharmacy technicians good enough?

Walgreens for instance started a push back in 2013 to elevate the responsibilities of pharmacy technicians. This has given their pharmacists more face to face time with their patients, but it has also pushed the limits of what pharmacy technicians can be expected to do. For the time being their focus is on improving customer service, but they are also positioning themselves for a time where health care costs are dramatically cut. If pharmacists are mostly just providing better customer service instead of performing more necessary tasks, they can be more easily displaced. Those new Walgreens desks where the pharmacists talk with patients could soon become kiosks where you talk to pharmacists in a calling center.

When I went to pharmacy technology seminars and trade shows, the primary selling point of the software and hardware was reduced payroll costs. Reduced drug waste was minor because hospitals generally already do a good job with that by employing more pharmacists and pharmacy techs. And the vast majority of those payroll cuts went towards pharmacists, not pharmacy technicians. Usually the staff reduction was done through attrition instead of job cuts so there is less resistance from existing pharmacists on staff.

Future IT skills wirequire a developer a skillset!

[Anonymous Coward]

IT jobs in the future will require a higher level of skill. It will be required that IT employees are proficient developers. If IT jobs increase, those that fill those positions will be developers anyways. Most in IT cannot learn to code proficiently; which is likely why they are in IT. If you disagree, then you are likely employed in an IT department that is ass backwards; lacks vision; and cannot see the writing on the wall.

Too many H1B visas

[p51d007]

Not to mention, code can be programmed pretty much anywhere, up/downloaded. Too many cheap labor imports taking jobs.

Mod parent down

[Anonymous Coward]

Nice try, GLOBALIST SCUM. How much are you being paid to say these things? 50 rupees/hr?

Re: Short term: change title from programmer to de

[Anonymous Coward]

It can take years to find a single competent programmer. What makes you think you can easily replace them? I'm not arguing about skill distributions around the world. I'm sure there are just as many good Indian programmer per-capita. What I'm arguing is that good programmers are nearly impossible to find. Big companies have such a hard time finding good programmers that they will buy out an entire company for the sole purpose of getting their programming talent, then liquidate the company.

Individual skills may be a bell-curve, but individual skills multiply with others, creating a power curve in talent. The top 20% do 50% of the work and the top 4% do 25% of the work. Even among the elite, the power-curve mostly survives. It's like a fractal. No matter how deep you dig, the top 20% contribute about 50% of the total.

I don't consider myself the best in anything and I know many are far better than I. But a State came to our company saying that the last 5 companies said what they wanted was impossible, and we were their last hope. We were the last because we charge the most. Even within our company, all of the other teams turned down the project saying it was too hard. It took it on, designing all of the infrastructure by myself, and we got one other junior programmer from another team to make a simple yet functional front end. I hate front-ends. We not only delivered ahead of time, but under budget, and the State said we did so well, that they actually passed a law requiring such high quality because they now knew it was possible. Everything just worked and new features had turn-arounds measured in days, not weeks or months.

I was strait up told by a VP that the CTO said it could not have been done without me. Gave me a 30% raise. I don't make a west coast income, but I make plenty where I am, I enjoy my job, the people are nice, and we're the best in our business.

Re: Short term: change title from programmer to de

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, digging shit out of a clogged toilet is way better than programming. You sir have obviously never worked a trade. Working odd hours, weekends, holidays, and sometimes having no work are what you get in a trade. Oh, and no vacation, healthcare, or any other benefits are included.

Color me unsurprised

[gweihir]

Kids: Go into coding only if you enjoy it _and_ are good at it. Put CS studies on top. In that case you will have decent opportunities and decent pay. All the mediocre and bad coders (and there are a lot out there, as they are the vast majority) will become working poor in the near future.

Slashdot deletes threads now?

[Anonymous Coward]

The first thread completely disappeared. One message there was very informative (although moderated as a troll), And now the whole thread is missing.

See the opposite

[Anonymous Coward]

I've seen the opposite in the last 10 years - companies less and less willing to offshore, and insisting developers are local and work onsite every day.

Re: Short term: change title from programmer to de

[euroq]

A robot can't answer questions about the drug, evaluate whether or not it's right do the patient beyond what the MD knows

Soon it will...

Re: Short term: change title from programmer to de

[euroq]

Yet we have a job that pays 220k.

Outsourcing...

[LinuxLuver]

The software company I worked for uses the existing developers to maintain and enhance the core of the main product. Anything new is developed in cheap, eastern European countries like Ukraine or Slovenia. They fly analysts out to do the talk to customers part as well as develop the specs and work with the programmers. So it's a case of the entire function is outsourced, not just the programming. This is mainly so the analysts are linguistically compatible.

What?

[Anonymous Coward]

SO if I can't major in Computer science anymore to get rich, what the fuck do I major in?