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TSA Body Scanner Opt-out No Longer Guaranteed (slashgear.com)
codguy writes: Up to now, airline passengers have been able opt out of the TSA's Advanced Imaging Technologies (AIT) whole body scanners, and request a physical pat-down for their security check. But ProPublica journalist Julia Angwin points out that a rule change on December 18, 2015 now allows the TSA to compel some passengers to use these scanners instead of giving them a pat-down. The updated rule says, "While passengers may generally decline AIT screening in favor of physical screening, TSA may direct mandatory AIT screening for some passengers," (PDF source). Of course, the criteria for when this can happen is completely unspecified, and one can easily imagine them abusing this by deciding to compel anyone who requests a pat-down to go through the scanners for some reasonable cause from their perspective. Guilty until proven innocent?
Just build a wall, ok?
Get it over with.
A pat-down probably won't find an SD card with encrypted data -- a body scan probably would.
Jerk. This is like saying if you don't like a law, leave the country. Wanting to go see grandma does not equal wanting to get skin cancer and nowhere on an airline ticket does it say you will be forced to endure radiation and the sharing of nude photographs with TSA perverts.
Hey, let's everyone "pay their fair share".
We all know this government will use that extra money wisely and for our benefit!
At first I was going to flame you a bit for saying that by purchasing a ticket I'm waiving my rights to not be unreasonably searched. But I'm really just tired of the whole police state thing. I just won't fly commercial. It won't change anything - there are too few people who are willing to be inconvenienced in order to preserve our rights, so Police State wins, I lose.
I'm really tired of this crap.
quite well organized group with lots of resources and ready to die members (who can resist extended interrogation techniques?) to change the system.
This is definitely our main security concern in airports. Especially when traveling domestically!
I have been opting out for years and appreciate my right to do so. If push comes to shove I would cancel my trip if I was compelled. Is any analysis available if I would be able to get a refund from Visa in this circumstance? Is any documentation possible to get from TSA possible to support such a claim. And is there any other form of non violent protest that I can do on the spot which would not get me put in jail / shit / no-fly listed? Seeking serious answers for a principled person.
Ask to avoid the scanner? Why that's a clear sign you have something to hide. You therefore must be a terrorist - go through the scanner.
excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
The rule was always just for the general pop, who were not currently undergoing extra screening. The TSA can pump your stomach on a whim and a suspicion, they can strip search you, they can destroy your property, they can detain you, of course they can compel you to walk through a scanner.
Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
Actually, it's walking on thin ice. The right to assemble is guaranteed in the first amendment, and implicit in that is the right to travel. It can be argued, quite rationally, that travel by plane is part of that. I want to travel to Hawaii? Sure, you could take a boat and spend a week round trip in transit, but that's quite a penalty. And what stops a nefarious government from starting a "no public transit" list? And if they revoke your drivers license? Where do we draw the line? What if we're in a not-too-distant future where private ownership of cars is a thing of the past and you can be denied any travel that you can't walk to?
It's not for this. And no, an SD card would be easy. Put it in your mouth, between your buttcheeks, taped to your skin, almost any way to get it through. Or just put it in your wallet with your phone. These scans are only searching for bombs/guns, and only have a 5% success rate. Theatre.
Whilst I don't like the body scanner, and prefer the old fashioned metal detectors, I would happily take either in preference to a pat down.
Part of the reason that I don't like the body scanner is it is much more likely to "find" a false positive requiring a partial pat down by the officers than the metal detector is.
Go fuck yourself. If you are not suspected of a crime, nor have had a writ or warrant signed by a judge, there is no legal basis for a search. "Purchasing a ticket" does not give anyone the legal basis to violate your rights. If you believe that, you're part of the problem.
Fortunately, I won't willingly subject myself to being treated like a slave so I stay as far away from airports as I possibly can. If I ever do have to go to the airport again, I'll be sure and opt-out for the patdown. Of course, I'll also make sure I take 2-3 extra strength Viagra before I turn up at the checkpoint.
And an SD card is a security hazard how exactly?
A pat-down probably won't find an SD card with encrypted data -- a body scan probably would.
What's your point? I have several SD cards that are encrypted. They're in my laptop bag and get scanned every time. Why would I try to hide them? They're not illegal.
"A plan fiendishly clever in its intricacies"- Homer Simpson
Pat downs are not guaranteed. There is so much that can slip through that you could have caught with a scanner. Do you know that since the program has started, the number of tiger attacks on airplanes has been reduced to zero? A pat down is not guaranteed to find a tiger hidden on your person. But by irradiating the entire body, they are 1.8% more likely to find any tigers you have hidden on your person. We simply can't take the risk people.
If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
So if there aren't some really specific rules, there is a very large chance of one of the TSA idiots on a power trip saying "too bad, I insist you get one".
These assholes love to act like they're in control.
The reality is they're little more than rent-a-cops who act like they're on a power trip.
Fuck you, DHS and TSA. We need far better rules that protect our safety and our rights ... I'm not taking the word of a high school dropout with 3 weeks of training that machine is safe.
And unless you fucking plan on reimbursing us for the flight, rejecting us because we won't get in your stupid scanner is bullshit.
Land of the free? Fuck that. Land of the cowering, simpering idiots. America has become a shithole.
I would agree but only if the scanner is of the safe sort which uses Terahertz radiation. While a pat down would not be pleasant I'd take it any day over the backscatter X-ray scanners which have a tiny, but non-zero, chance of giving you cancer. While this risk is tiny there is absolutely no need to take it given that there are perfectly safe scanners available. So if the TSA is going to be able to compel you to get scanned then they need to be compelled to provide safe scanners which use non-ionizing radiation.
Wanting to go see grandma does not equal wanting to get skin cancer and nowhere on an airline ticket does it say you will be forced to endure radiation
I don't like these scanners either, but please don't be an idiot. The amount of ionizing radiation you get from the scanner is radically smaller than the extra amount you are going to get from spending time in an aircraft at 38000 ft, or eating a banana. Both risks are vanishingly small compared to the risk you incurred by driving to the airport.
Flying across the country will subject you to about 4,000 microrem. The TSA scanners, about 5 microrem. Independent (non-TSA affiliated) tests of over 700 scanners showed all were at or below their radiation targets.
There are plenty of good reasons to object to these scanners without introducing pseudscientific bullshit into it. Doing so just gives the other side of this debate more ammo to shoot down our side, who look like loons when they spout this kind of stuff. You want to object to the scanners? Great. Let's do it on civil rights grounds.
Awww, come on. Let him pretend he's Jason Bourne and his SD card full of encrypted hentai is critical to national security!
Does anyone with a functional brain stem still think that this goobermint is serving them, instead of themselves?
What is this designed to prevent? Shoe bombers? No, it's about subjugation! Grab your ankle's and enjoy it serf's!
Steamships are a little difficult to use in transatlantic crossings.
"This message was sent from an Apple
I fly during the primary holidays and I always opt-out ever since the process started. I've never had any issues so far and everyone has been respectable, more annoyed that they have to do extra work than anything else. Interestingly the times when it was very busy they stopped asking people to take off their shoes and let us keep our laptops in their bags.
Skin cancer runs in my family, so that's the reason I opt-out. I have no clue if the scanners promote cancer or not, but why take the risk? I'm already getting a radiation dose from flying. Do I have any recourses if they refuse my opt-out?
Just like when you turn on a computer, you waive all rights to anything. Seems about right.
Are you aware of the danger of a simple mechanical failure? These are raster machines so they scan you by bombarding you with a paper thin plane beam than pans down your body. If that beam stops, even for a few seconds then it would irradiate the cells along that plane with a massive dose. Not "pseudo science".
"This message was sent from an Apple
Stop flying! Subjecting yourself to the security theater willingly only servers to prolong it.
as an american, I avoid outright any travel during the holidays. I can visit my family cheaper and with far less hassle any other time during the year. That having been said -- and I know this is going to be an unpopular opinion -- I've had relatively productive experiences with the TSA sans a few minor run-ins, likely enacted as part of the general TSA theatricality.
Returning to LA from Ohio on a business trip I was detained after an explosives detector found something on my hands. I was led to a small concrete room with two bluecoats and my carry-on was privately searched. I explained a bar of soap, and they packed everything as they found it and sent me on my way. Another time, I decided to exit the very tedious screening line to get a beer at an adjacent microbrewery in the portland airport. Big mistake. I was detained by police and questioned for leaving the line. I told them the line was boring, and I wanted beer. After refusing to answer a few questions about religion and my laptop password, my laptop was confiscated and i was free to return to the pub. I rescheduled my flight, shared a laugh with the bartender, and re-entered the line only to be followed by the cops again to my gate. My laptop was returned, along with an apology and some rambling nonsense about muslims. They didnt crack a smile until I asked how many beers the average muslim drinks in a day.
Travel is simple, with a few caveats*, in america. board with a smile, speak softly, dress comfortably, and keep entertained. Im willing to suspect most TSA officers wont turn away a kind face asking for an opt out.
*simple travel may not be available to anyone of middle eastern, south asian, or african american descent.
Good people go to bed earlier.
I'm with you. I have been opting out since day one. Should I be required I will simply, and calmly refuse. If they do not allow me and my family to board then I will demand a refund from the airline since I agreed to a screening but not an irradiated, 95% failure rate one. They will have to issue a refund or book me on a later flight. If not, I will issue a chargeback on my card and sue them and the TSA, and FAA, for any damages. If enough of us stand up there is a chance, if everyone continues to be spineless sheep then we are screwed. Disney just installed metal detectors at parks, work that one out and you will see where we are headed as a society. Stand the hell up for yourself and others!
"This message was sent from an Apple
Please link to one instance of this happening at a real TSA scanner.
We the people have all the rights. Some, of those rights have been delegated to the federal government to ensure the prosperity of the people. The Bill of Rights specifically says the government may not do certain things. If not mentioned in the Constitution, the people, or the States, retain those rights.
We have the right to travel unobstructed by federal thugs via any method we choose.
Look into the boat option, it isn't as easy as you would think. Certainly not as easy as commercial air travel.
"Guilty until proven innocent?"
No, not at all. You waive your rights when you purchase your ticket, which is a voluntary act. By purchasing your ticket, you are agreeing to the conditions attached to it, which include submitting to a search. If you don't want to be searched, don't buy a ticket, and find another way to travel.
Oy. I really can't stand this argument. Yes, it's voluntary; just like having a bank account and a computer and a credit card and a job and a home are all voluntary. Maybe when people buy houses they should all be required to have surveillance cameras installed. Buying a home is voluntary, so if people don't like being watched they are free to simply not buy a house. Why not just search everyone walking down the street? After all, it's completely voluntary to walk down the street. No one is forcing you are they?
But what am I to do to visit my aunt in France? Should I take a steamship? What if I'm flying for business and I don't want to go through the scanner? Should I quit my job? I mean, having a job is voluntary right? No one is forcing me to keep my job. The thing is, while many things are technically voluntary, they are also required to participate in the modern world. That's why the voluntary nature of these things is irrelevant. The point is whether these rules are proper and constitutional. I happen to think not. I know the Supreme Court has removed my rights at border crossings. But I don't have to like or agree with it. That, after all, is voluntary.
"What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
Analysis? Not that I know about. But I would almost certainly say that no, you would not get a refund from VISA for refusing to go through security screening, something you are implicitly agreeing to by obtaining a ticket in the first place.
:)
For me, I just want them to stop moving old people into the TSA PreCheck lane, or at least start giving them better instructions on what to do when they get there. I didn't pay all that money to watch you take your 10 year old Dell laptop out of the bag and start fiddling with your belt and shoes.
Can we do anything force passengers to go through the scanner instead of us having to pat them down? Because... fat chicks.
These aren't criminal searches (despite the TSA's continued touting of all the illegal items they find which they then share with the police despite the TSA NOT, repeat, NOT, being authorized under any US Code for Law Enforcement activities), they are "administrative" searches...
Sorry that's now how it works. The TSA is a government agency, not a private organization, they don't get to ignore your rights, regardless of any conditions your sign or agree too with a "private" airline. You literally cannot sign away your rights like this.
Even in criminal plea deals you still have to declare guilt to a crime in court in front of a judge.
This is my sig. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
These are raster machines so they scan you by bombarding you with a paper thin plane beam than pans down your body. If that beam stops, even for a few seconds then it would irradiate the cells along that plane with a massive dose. Not "pseudo science".
That's not true at all. These machines are are a phased array transducer. It emits a pulsed waves that radiate out in all directions. Interferometry of the reflected wave and the transmitter's position is used to reconstruct the 3D image. It's basically a form of synthetic aperture radar using millimeter wave radio.
A pat-down probably won't find an SD card with encrypted data -- a body scan probably would.
What's your point? I have several SD cards that are encrypted. They're in my laptop bag and get scanned every time. Why would I try to hide them? They're not illegal.
They're encrypted. Just give it time.
"What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
If you are not suspected of a crime, nor have had a writ or warrant signed by a judge, there is no legal basis for a search.
Incorrect. You are free to consent to a search even absent a search warrant. For example, if you are stopped by a police officer who asks to search your person or belongings, and you agree, then no warrant is needed.
This is a similar situation: the airline is unwilling to transport you unless you agree to a search. That is their right. You are free to accept or reject these terms. If you agree to be searched then they will happily fly you across the country. You are also free to disagree, in which case they do not agree to transport you across the country on their aircraft.
If you don't like this situation (I don't either!) then refuse to travel in this way. If enough people do that, they will remove the scanner policy or all the airlines will go out of business. As long as you keep agreeing to their terms, they have absolutely no incentive to change them.
Stop being a whimpering sheep. Stand up for what you believe, or you are part of the problem.
These are raster machines so they scan you by bombarding you with a paper thin plane beam than pans down your body.
No, they are not, and that is not how they work any more than your dental X-ray works by rasterizing with a "thin plane beam".
Again, please stop acting like a loon. It doesn't make our side of this debate look good, if our arguments are all based on incorrect assertions. There are plenty of good, civil rights based reasons to object to this policy, without inventing pseudoscience nonsense.
is now required to opt out.
If you refuse, they *will* detain you and do a full cavity search. If you attempt to leave, they will have you arrested and jailed for 48 hours while they interrogate your friends and coworkers about your ties to terrorism. Geht ihr in die Duschen! Ihr reicht wie Schweine!
Even a pretend-billionaire can buy his own plane. You think he worries about these things? NO! This is why he should be president of the US of A.
You waive your rights when you purchase your ticket
Do you know what "inalienable" means?
You can't "waive" your due process rights any more than you can sell yourself into slavery.
>sue them and the TSA, and FAA
Might want to look up "Sovereign Immunity" first. You'll be shocked and disappointed. All those lawsuits you see against the police and others are actually the state volunteering to give their right to refuse to be sued. I think you can be certain the TSA isn't that nice.
Please link to one instance of this happening at a real TSA scanner.
So you admit that the 95% failure rate in tests to detect explosives by the TSA was not due to "mechanical failure"?
You can't have it both ways. It's either useful and keeps us safer or it it's a complete clusterfuck.
(Insert comment about feeling up/scanning genitals and how it makes me feel safe to board a plane.)
When you start mentioning things like skin cancer, you start sounding a bit hysterical. Are you *really* worried about a 0.00015% increase in risk of cancer? Honestly, you're several hundred times more likely to be a victim of terrorism than to get skin cancer from thee machines, and that risk is negligible.
I'm with you. I have been opting out since day one. Should I be required I will simply, and calmly refuse. If they do not allow me and my family to board then I will demand a refund from the airline since I agreed to a screening but not an irradiated, 95% failure rate one. They will have to issue a refund or book me on a later flight. If not, I will issue a chargeback on my card and sue them and the TSA, and FAA, for any damages.
I appreciate the enthusiasm. You sound a little sue-happy, but, I believe the stigmatization of those who sue has been a propaganda against the people in the US to get us to give up more of our power. For better or worse, we are a "small" government country and the lawsuits are the primary form of justice for all sorts of fuckery which other western nations would disallow through regulation. Lawsuits are very much part of the power of the little person in this country BY DESIGN, It's unfortunate that the populace has been convinced that lawsuits are bad or frivolous. It allows the corporate / government to dismantle our power in court without the country putting up a fight (which they have been doing quite successfully).
If enough of us stand up there is a chance, if everyone continues to be spineless sheep then we are screwed. Disney just installed metal detectors at parks, work that one out and you will see where we are headed as a society. Stand the hell up for yourself and others!
Welp, then, we're screwed.
I don't actually think metal detectors are THAT bad if they worked or were deployed in good faith. But, they don't work. They installed metal detectors at MLB parks in the last few years. I was at my MLB team's opening day the first year of metal detectors (which was a complete boondoggle). They don't put your STUFF through the metal detector. And, if you go at peak time, they are too busy to take a good look in your bag. Literally, wrap a gun in a woman's sweater and put it at the bottom of a bag of food and water, and it will get into the park. The metal detectors, if anything, make this problem WORSE because now the screeners seem to have LESS time and interest at looking in your bag.
It doesn't matter if metal detectors work at detecting weapons or not. That doesn't seem to be their purpose. Their purpose seems to be to remind Joe Sixpack that if he wants to get along in American society he had better fall in line. And, THAT is scary indeed, because it seems to have worked pretty well thus far.
So if they "administratively" search you and find illegal drugs or kiddie porn (as examples) then you're free to go? Yah, didn't think so.
The airline, who'm the TSA is technically working for, has no such immunity.
Some machines are twave some are xray.
the airline is unwilling to transport you unless you agree to a search.
No. The airlines themselves hate this shit even more than their passengers do. They just want to get the plane packed and in the air on-schedule; kinda tough to reliably perform that function when some thug with a god-complex can recall a plane to the gate on a whim.
Great idea for a movie and game, "Person hunts down the master minds of TSA Poisoning. With various middle school level results." For example, test the Executives making these decisions with these machines.
95% failure rate one
Failure to do what?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1290527/Airport-body-scanners-deliver-radiation-dose-20-times-higher-thought.html
Exactly. If you don't want to waive your rights, you should simply be rich enough to exercise them. General aviation doesn't have body scanners OR pat downs....
Can you be Even More Awesome?!
I seem to recall a supreme court trial on the no fly list that did state that the right to travel guaranteed by the constitution did in fact include air travel, though the feds tried to claim it didn't since they could still travel by boat or land. Too lazy to look it up though, I'm sure somebody with either look it up or call me an idiot in some extremely trolly way. This is ./ after all.
The pat down takes more time. This move allows them to speed things up when a lot of people opt out.
Yeah, and if I were trying to get an SD card on to a plane, I'd do like I did last time I was on a plane. By putting it in my carry on and running it through the X-ray. If they don't give a damn about my phone, laptop, tablet or any other electronic device that could contain encrypted data, why the hell would they care about an SD card?
It's all a farce. Not only does the TSA do an abysmal job of detecting threats (something like 90% failure in one study) they can't see into body cavities. If you land in jail that's part of the routine - inspecting your body cavity for smuggled contraband. The TSA scanners are useless in this regard. Perhaps the only hope is if they implement something like Recta Security.
yeah and if i had a girl she would be dressed in a metallic leotard whenever she had to fly (hmm i wonder how much metal is needed to jam the scanner).
I'd rather not be irradiated in the first place.
And please indicate where these are at all effective. Note that in the TSA's own tests they missed nearly all guns and explosives. What's the point of these body scanners, other than allowing the TSA to get the equivalent of nylon filtered pornography? It's obvious the scanners do fuck all for security.
The cesspool just got a check and balance.
I suppose you could get clothes opaque to T-waves. Large, loose fitting clothes that could cover up a small arsenal. It would be interesting to see what happens if lots of people did that.
So you admit that the 95% failure rate in tests to detect explosives by the TSA was not due to "mechanical failure"?
That wasn't REMOTELY the subject. The subject was whether the backscatter X-ray scanners are rasterizing devices that can get stuck in one spot and give you a massively higher dose of radiation. The quote being objected to was:
These are raster machines so they scan you by bombarding you with a paper thin plane beam than pans down your body. If that beam stops, even for a few seconds then it would irradiate the cells along that plane with a massive dose. Not "pseudo science"
This is bullshit because the devices do not operate in that way. So yes, it is pseudoscienfic bullshit.
Again: please link to one instance of that failure ever happening at a TSA scanner. Stop changing the subject because you can't: just admit that you can't, and we'll move on.
The TSA recently ran a red flag operation on the scanners at several airports and 95% of the tests got through with weapons and explosives.
X-rays are known to cause cancer in sufficient quantity. How do you know the TSA machines aren't blasting you with huge amounts of X-ray radiation? Have they been checked by the FDA? No, they haven't, because they're supposedly not "medical devices".
What will be next is real-time analysis of waste streams from peoples' homes (hey, it's a public utility, so...). Evidence of booze, drugs, diabetes, etc. will be shared with the police states' partners in the health insurance industry.
The frog-boiling will start with those in public housing / assistance, because eff the poor, right?
This is a similar situation: the airline is unwilling to transport you unless you agree to a search. That is their right.
I don't recall any airline requiring a search prior to travel, even today. I do recall the feds and congress going nuts and requiring cavity searches of everyone for any reason at their whim before allowing them through a commercial airport to a gate. All to prevent what was a known weak spot back in the 70s or earlier, and could have been fixed by a simple secure door between the cockpit and the rest of the plane. El Al implemented that long long ago, and that alone would have stopped 9/11 cold. Who's to blame? Both the government and the airlines, the former for its (continuing) laissez faire attitude towards security, the latter for their arguments against strengthening the doors because of cost.
The cesspool just got a check and balance.
No, you're flat out wrong.
Officer: "May I search your vehicle?"
Civilian: "Yes."
The civilian has consented to a search, which is entirely lawful. The officer has violated no rights of the civilian by then proceeding with the search.
Another example:
Officer: "... You have the right to remain silent. You have the right to attorney. If you cannot afford one..."
Civilian: " I wave my right to attorney and will answer your questions."
The officer is violating no rights by proceeding with the interview, and everything stated by the civilian from that point on is admissible in court. 6
As sad as it is, this is the same scenario.
Passenger: "May I have a ticket to fly?" Airline: "Do you consent to a search?" Passenger: "Yes."
You have the right to refuse the search at the time you try to purchase the ticket. You cannot then be searched, but you wont be getting a flight either.
There are rights that you cannot forfeit, such as your freedom. You cannot willfully enter into a contract that makes you a slave to another person, for instance.The contract is unenforceable. But that's not what we're talking about here at all.
"But we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it,..." - Nancy Pelosi
Have you been paying attention? Our rights are ignored/trampled by government agencies, especially the TSA, far more often then any private entity. Just because they are a government agency doesn't mean they will honor your rights. Observation suggests just the opposite.
We can discuss the mechanics by which they "work" all day, but honestly, in my own experience, they don't work in the sense that they have way too many false positives.
I have pretty long hair down to my lower back, and in my experience, the scanners have a tendency to flag various points on my upper back simply because my hair is there. It's gotten to the point where I automatically assume I'm going to need a pat-down because of it flinging yellow squares all over my upper back on the TSA's monitor.
The funny thing to me is that I fly often enough and I've gotten so used to it that I'll typically crack a joke about it as soon as I get into the scanner, and when I turn out to be right, half the time the TSA agent just waves me through because he or she realizes that I've been through this so many times that I've come to expect the false-positives. That's one hell of a vote of confidence, when the actual users of the scanners don't even have faith in the results.
To digress, I do have to say that 99% of the TSA agents I've encountered have been unflaggingly polite. I think it's easy for a lot of us to lose sight of the fact that ultimately, most of these people didn't sign up for the alluring chance of getting to feel up grandma, they signed up because it was a job, and in today's job market said jobs are pretty scarce. They're not demonic shock troops, they're just Joe Q. Average people who want to get through their 8 hours and then go home and knock back a beer or two. If you don't go through security with an attitude, you typically won't get one back.
The utilization requirements result in higher use of the machines, which result in the purchasing of more machines, which result in Michael Chertoff (former head of Homeland Security, the man who put these machines in place) becoming even more super-rich (through a chain of businesses, he profits from the sales).
The whole police state bit, though real and problematic, is secondary in this case.
The problem is - you won't be able to cancel your trip. Once you are in that security line, you can't legally leave. So next time, you will need to decide before you get in the line if you want to cancel the trip rather than have the chance of them forcing you to go through the scanner.
As a side note - there aren't many people like you (or me). I've opted out every time I've flown over the last 5 years (or or 5 times a year). I have never, ever seen a single other person opt out during that time.
Better to piss in fear and scream and die free than live a lifetime as a slave.
Or at least that's what some folks believed 200 years ago.
Then again, if you're so cowardly that you'll put up with having those rights abrogated, then you've already demonstrated that you're more qualified to be on the receving end of a dick than that you have one yourself.
And don't forget that your Rambo wannabe 2nd amendments don't mean squat in the airport.
Except that the current AIT scanners (and likely to remain that way) are microwave radar systems operating at 30 GHz.
The scanning mechanism in the Xray systems is the intersection of a fixed slit and a scanning disk with a slit, so if the wheel stops spinning, you basically get a narrow spot, not a plane beam.
Check out the National Academies Press report that just came out. There's a lot to complain about with the backscatter Xray technology, but scan failure isn't one of them.
Steamships are a little difficult to use in transatlantic crossings.
Huh? Did somebody inform the owners, crew and passengers on the Queen Mary?
They are subject to regulation as a radiation emitting device (more than just medical devices are regulated.. the X-ray machine you use to inspect welds is regulated) And most of the machines have internal interlock systems with a radiation detector, so that if the dose goes outside fairly narrow bands, they shut down.
They've shown how body scans miss weaponry on people testing the system. (These are professionals. Do NOT bring a gun to the TSA line and then say "well, I was just testing security.") If the scanners can't detect weaponry regularly, how would it find an SD card? As a followup, why would they need to find an SD card? Yes, the data on it might be a threat, but the SD card itself isn't a threat to the flight or the people on it.
My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
Apparently, stepping into an airport is an exception to that rule.
What you say is correct for certain rights, such as your example of slavery. However, you ARE free to give up your right not to be searched without a warrant. The courts have upheld that, as well, so it's been tested in the legal system, in the case of the person you're reply to where people voluntarily give up their right to remain silent, or their right to not be searched.
So in short, you are correct in other cases, but not correct about this specific thing. You do have the right to agree to a search. The airline also has the right to not transport you unless you have agreed to a search.
Yay, another american dork who just sits at home all the time instead of travelling. Frankly thats in the best interest of the world. You fuckers just sit home and continue being the ignorant joke of the first world.
Also, there are regular rumblings from the security theater proponents about how we need to expand the TSA to cover trains, stadiums, etc. We're one "fear event" (either a terrorist attack or a hyped up "near miss") from other methods of transportation and gathering falling under TSA "protection." How long until we're being told "if you don't want to be strip searched then just don't drive across state lines?"
My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
The machines false like crazy. I got pat downs coming and going, as it falsed on a number of locations including the groin, of course.
Exactly this. We could roll back all airport/airline security to pre-911 levels except for the locked, reinforced cockpit doors and the changed mentality of passengers (pre-911 hijacking meant you went to Cuba for a few days and are unharmed if you stay quiet, post-911 hijacking means you die if you don't fight back). Doing so wouldn't reduce our security by a measurable amount, but would restore a large amount of our liberties. (You know, those things the terrorists apparently hate and that we're trying to protect.)
My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
Fuck the tsa in the ass. Them and those fucking clowns who pretend they protect squat (dhs) should all be fired. Whoever replaces that bag of shit obama should do just that. And I don't gaf if it's a million peopk. Don't gaf
The odds of somebody sneaking a bomb on board are not greatly changed by the existence of the TSA.
But being the at risk to be a victim of terrorism is the price you have to pay to life in a free society, keep in mind i can sneak all the parts i need to build a bomb on board an airplane if i'm willing to do the chemistry in the toilet.
Your all fucking criminals
http://www.house.gov/representatives/find/
Why does the useless and hateful TSA still exist? We need to get rid of this oppressive "security" force.
Considering that by law, forcing someone to remove clothing involuntarily in any situation other than during an actual arrest constitutes first-degree sexual assault under color of law, and that everyone involved—the entire TSA chain of command, the airline and airport (for allowing the TSA to operate the checkpoint), etc.—would be subject to criminal charges if they ever forced someone to walk through one of those things, I would think that VISA would distance themselves from it as quickly as they possibly could to avoid being caught up in the massive legal retaliation from the affected person.
Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.
The TSA does not work for the airline. They work for the airport. There's a huge difference there.
I wish I hadn't commented so that I could moderate, but I guess you already got the +5
Personally, I believe that the TSA having to look at my near-naked scan is probably punishment enough for whatever they've done to me that trip. I'd call it even.
-Styopa
Are you aware of the danger of a simple mechanical failure? These are raster machines so they scan you by bombarding you with a paper thin plane beam than pans down your body. If that beam stops, even for a few seconds then it would irradiate the cells along that plane with a massive dose. Not "pseudo science".
I thought the TSA retired all of their backscatter X-ray scanners and replaced them with millimeter wave RF scanners?
Well, then you really shouldn't fly. As mentioned above, you will incur far more radiation from the actual flight than from anything the scanners could do to you.
By all means, complain about your loss of rights - I despise TSA myself - but if we're dishonest about our rejection of TSA then we're no better than the deceptive methods by which they seized control of our airports.
True, you can not get on the plane even though you bought a ticket.
Maybe it has the Independence Day virus on it and he's planning to disable the shields of all the aircraft connected to the same air-traffic control system with his 1996 Powerbook?
they don't use the xray machines anymore. It is all mm wave and shit. These are not a problem. And quite frankly i don't really give a shit about who sees me naked. I got over that a long time ago.
If information wants to be free, why does my internet connection cost so much?
they wanna cut TSA employees, they can't do that with opt outs. the rank-and-file TSA folks should be *happy* for the extra work you're providing them. Very few things can be automated when 1) some security theater is needed, and 2) the person is asking to be checked by a human as opposed to a machine.
I don't like these scanners either, but please don't be an idiot.
The amount of ionizing radiation you get from the scanner is radically smaller than the extra amount you are going to get from spending time in an aircraft at 38000 ft, or eating a banana.
Flying across the country will subject you to about 4,000 microrem. The TSA scanners, about 5 microrem. Independent (non-TSA affiliated) tests of over 700 scanners showed all were at or below their radiation targets.
It is not possible to compare numbers like this. The type of radiation and area/organs exposed are all critically important.
X-ray scanners tend to deposit most of their energy close to the skin (1" or so) The exposure profile is different from random gamma strikes with a normal distribution throughout the body.
There are plenty of good reasons to object to these scanners without introducing pseudscientific bullshit into it. Doing so just gives the other side of this debate more ammo to shoot down our side, who look like loons when they spout this kind of stuff.
If LNT is correct people are getting cancer and dying as a result of x-ray body scanners. While your _individual_ risk is low giving a shit about unnecessary and entirely preventable deaths does not seem like a "bullshit" argument to me.
According to the TSA they found 31 loaded guns in carry-on bags *this week* so they must be doing something right. http://blog.tsa.gov/2015/12/ts...
So, using the numbers above, instead of 5 uRem, it was 100 uRem. Still seems really small compared to the 4000 uRem you get from the flight itself.
Well, then you really shouldn't fly. As mentioned above, you will incur far more radiation from the actual flight than from anything the scanners could do to you.
You'll need to provide proof of the levels of radiation you'll be exposed to. Hint - there are no documented tests detailing what these machines release, because... NATIONAL SECURITY!!!! (My guess, the theater involved makes me gag as much as a soap opera) In any case, any extra radiation is amazingly "extra" and not necessary. I'll continue to refuse "extra" and unnecessary radiation exposure at every opportunity.
By all means, complain about your loss of rights - I despise TSA myself - but if we're dishonest about our rejection of TSA then we're no better than the deceptive methods by which they seized control of our airports.
I don't believe I'm in the least dishonest about my opinions of the TSA and their largely useless and, IMNSHO, unconstitutional activities. The only activity that will have a direct effect on preventing a repeat of 9-11, the previously mentioned cockpit security doors, was finally implemented and is the only reasonable thing that was done. Scanning baggage is fine as well, and doesn't require loss of privacy. There are numerous non privacy violating steps that are more effective than the current security theater that they won't do, except for special "pre-approved" people. The simplest are metal scanners. I guarantee you a standard gun won't make it through a metal scanner, for instance, per the previously linked TSA failures. I still never fathomed why metal scanners weren't part of the process, everyone should walk through one. It's fast, simple, easy.
The cesspool just got a check and balance.
By contrast, it takes fewer than ten people with difficult jobs to fly a commercial airplane from New York to London. (I'm counting ground based mechanics, who, of course, can be the mechanic of multiple planes per day in a way that doesn't work with steamship mechanics.) That's a much smaller crew.
We the people have all the rights. Some, of those rights have been delegated to the federal government to ensure the prosperity of the people. The Bill of Rights specifically says the government may not do certain things. If not mentioned in the Constitution, the people, or the States, retain those rights.
We have the right to travel unobstructed by federal thugs via any method we choose.
Minus the fact that "We, the People" have yet to succeed in front of the Supreme Court..
Exactly this. We could roll back all airport/airline security to pre-911 levels except for the locked, reinforced cockpit doors and the changed mentality of passengers (pre-911 hijacking meant you went to Cuba for a few days and are unharmed if you stay quiet, post-911 hijacking means you die if you don't fight back). Doing so wouldn't reduce our security by a measurable amount, but would restore a large amount of our liberties. (You know, those things the terrorists apparently hate and that we're trying to protect.)
Exactly, although I would still encourage use of metal detectors and scanning all baggage. Traces of explosives are generally simple enough to detect, and those scanners should also be used. They also don't require radiation nor privacy invasion.
The cesspool just got a check and balance.
I'm sorry sir, but I don't want to destroy my shoulder joints which have been injured during years of manual labor and could cause an immediate medical event. Please make sure that you pat me down instead. Thank you. What are they supposed to do at that point? Risk a federal lawsuit for discriminating against disabled individuals?
There is still no legal basis to be forced to participate in a search in order to travel. Of course, most people couldn't find their asshole with both hands, so they don't realize that they actually have rights and just go right along with it. And by the way, the airlines don't give a fuck, this is the fucking government sicko whackjobs who get off on molesting people who continue to perpetrate this shit.
And I'm a whimpering sheep? If you read the rest of my comment, which you didn't, I already stated I DON'T travel in this way. Haven't flown since May of 2001. I've got gray hairs from standing up for what I believe for the last two decades. Who the fuck are you, anyway?
They are desperate for you to believe that you can't legally leave, but there are many stories of people doing exactly that. TSA knows that they don't have the authority to prevent you from leaving - that's why they threaten an $11,000 lawsuit that they try very hard to present as a "fine". Puffed-up screening clerks have told travelers "We WILL be bringing that lawsuit" and nothing has happened.
The only authority they have is to prohibit people from entering the terminal. They can try to get airport police involved, but airport cops don't always uphold TSA's narrative that you can't leave.
Help protect civil rights from abuse by the TSA - visit TSA News Blog.
http://www.tsanewsblog.com
Please stop making sense. I much prefer to be outraged. Thank-you.
Just because you are paranoid does not mean that no-one is out to get you.
I still travel. Of course, I don't get to see the socialist utopias of Europe (which, with that attitude is where I assume you're from and exactly why I have no desire to ever set foot around you people ever again), but you see, most people over here see YOU as the ignorant joke of the first world, with the exception of super-liberal media sites and NPR. But keep telling yourselves how much better you are than everyone else and I'm sure one day you'll make it!
Merry Christmas from the US of fucking A, asshole!
But only the truly ignorant waive their rights. I see which category you fall under.
As a followup, why would they need to find an SD card? Yes, the data on it might be a threat, but the SD card itself isn't a threat to the flight or the people on it.
Not a threat until someone opens up the headrest screen and inserts the SD card into the computer there, infecting the whole plane with a Mac-virus and forces it to fly into a building!
It's not broken, it's advanced.
no, tsa is a part of dhs, even bigger difference. airports are local entities usually, not the fucking feds. screeners before the shitstorm that is the tsa, were employed by airlines or airports.
They did retire them. My comment applies to the ones remaining.
The airlines don't get a choice in the matter either. The TSA was imposed on them as well. They cannot opt out and allow people to fly without the search nor can they opt to hire a private party to do the searching for them.
"While passengers may generally decline AIT screening in favor of physical screening, TSA may direct mandatory AIT screening for some passengers,"
Those "some passengers" being the commie liberal terrorist sympathisers who request to opt out of the body scanners?
systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
Not at all. Guilty, period. Whether or not you prove your innocence.
The NSA: The only part of the US government that actually listens.
At first I was going to flame you a bit for saying that by purchasing a ticket I'm waiving my rights to not be unreasonably searched. But I'm really just tired of the whole police state thing. I just won't fly commercial. It won't change anything - there are too few people who are willing to be inconvenienced in order to preserve our rights, so Police State wins, I lose.
I'm really tired of this crap.
At the very least we can recognize that this is a police state!
When airport security checkpoints were run as part of the airline business (and were every bit as effective as the TSA without the loss of dignity), this was an inconvenience, but not a constitutional issue. Now you're searched by government employees without probable cause. "Waiving" constitutional rights is a bit of self-serving government nonsense that no one should fall for.
It's just as bad at the courthouse. I'm legally compelled to enter the building by my jury summons. I get search by police without probable cause. No where in the Constitution does it say "unless we're scared". The government is supposed to be scared of the people. But we've fallen as a nation, and the people are now scared of the government.
I'm really tired of this crap, too.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
Sorry, no. Unless you can also end up flying if the conversation goes Passenger:"I would like a ticket to fly". Airline:"Do you consent to a search?", Passenger: "Certainly not!".
You should note that the TSA is not a private organization that airlines optionally hire. It is a government agency imposed on all airlines. Ny law, there cannot be a no hassle airline that welcomes passengers to bypass the TSA and board the plane without a hassle.
Good luck with that.
Yay, another american dork who just sits at home all the time instead of travelling. Frankly thats in the best interest of the world. You fuckers just sit home and continue being the ignorant joke of the first world.
I live 4100 km from where I lived 10 years ago - all in America. How far from where you were born do you live today? If you think "traveling" a few hundred km for summer vacation makes you worldly, I think I know who's the ignorant joke of the world.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
You are several thousand times more likely to die from slipping in the shower than from terrorism so why are we wasting so much time, money, and humanity on this?
"This message was sent from an Apple
The airlines are completely responsible for security on their airplanes, they have a choice to delegate to the TSA or hire their own firm. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wik... "Private screening did not disappear under the TSA, which allows airports to opt out of federal screening and hire firms to do the job instead. Such firms must still get TSA approval under its Screening Partnership Program (SPP) and follow TSA procedures.[5] Among the U.S. airports with privately operated checkpoints are San Francisco International Airport; Kansas City International Airport; Greater Rochester International Airport; Tupelo Regional Airport; Key West International Airport; Charles M. Schulz â" Sonoma County Airport; and Jackson Hole Airport.[6][7]"
"This message was sent from an Apple
agreed.
i used to opt-out both for the sense of privacy but, more importantly, because i thought it was dangerous and unproved. (in the beginning there were several objections from concerned scientists). lately, however, my girlfriend, who is much more rational than i am has argued that it's a tiny dose of radiation that's much less intense than a dental scan.
i still don't agree with the need/use for it in the first place, but if someone can put to bed the dangerousness issue, i'd feel a heck of a lot better with these things...
any valid science out there?
Hint one; they do not body scan these bags. These are completely separate issues.
Hint two; most of these were guns people completely legally carry in the US and forgot to take out of their bags. You will notice they don't state the number that they miss which probably runs into the hundreds.
According to the TSA they found 31 loaded guns in carry-on bags *this week* so they must be doing something right. http://blog.tsa.gov/2015/12/ts...
What they don't tell you is that TSA red team folks put over 100 guns in carry on bags this week.
Oops.
Muslim, or look Muslim (Sikh). Welcome to America!
In most states an unwanted, intentional touch or strike constitutes a felony assault. This is why they bring over a LEO when you say you do not wish to be touched.
"This message was sent from an Apple
"Guilty until proven innocent?"
That's what security is all about.
They've "only" destroyed 9 Medtronic insulin pumps ... what's 9 dead people compared to a technology proven to stop terrorists at airports, as evidenced by our large number of public trials, and the terrorists subsequently jailed, thanks to AIT scanners.
What do you mean, we've not caught a single terrorist with an AIT scanner? Are you sure?!? Try Googling it... you *must* be wrong! AIT scanners are good for you!
This is why I haven't flown anywhere in 15 years. This shit right here.
I'll just drive wherever I want to go in the US and sail anywhere else....
I will not let TSA grope me or my family to get on a plane.
I will not let TSA irradiate me with machines that were forced into use by the same Senator who owned a healthy share of the company that manufactured them.
I will not let TSA take my personal laptop or electronics because I won't give them the passwords to 'look through them'.
Seriously, Fuck the TSA and this whole thing.
I drive, and can see the sights along the way.
I sail, and can enjoy the ocean and get a new experience.
For those that say they have no time.... You should make the tme and stop taking everything so seriously.... no one gets out of here alive.
31 guns...out of the 600 that people had in their carry-on bags overall.
You're guilty until proven guilty.
You... do know that cosmic radiation, ionizing radiation, do have some differences? What about that in an airplane, the aircraft skin, all the inside components (paneling, insulation, ducts, etc) probably absorbs a good amount of radiation, making it not exactly 100% analogous to being out in the sun? (and IMO less comparable to x-ray machines)
As other folks have mentioned... I prefer to limit my exposure to needless radiation. We already get dosed from a myriad of other sources, no need to add on; especially since dosages are cumulative. At least they've ditched the backscatter xray machines... those really concerned me. Regarding the pat down - I've never had an issue with the TSA - they are just trying to do their job. They've always been professional and courteous. In any event, if for some reason they still want me to go through the MM machine, I'll do so without a fuss. I'd just rather avoid it, if possible.
I've filed an emergency motion for preliminary injunction / temporary restraining order.
http://slashdot.org/firehose.p...
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From a Constitutional view, because the TSA is a government agency and being in possession of a weapon or other contraband is an arrestable and punishable offense I object to the searches and patdowns on 4th amendment grounds. However if the searches were conducted by the airlines themselves as a condition of accessing their property and there were no criminal results from being in possession of said property then I wouldn't have a problem with it.
As it is, it is an unconstitutional restriction on the right to travel unmolested by government thugs.
I'm sorry but, while i do respect your opinion, i'm also kind of tempted to say - with no offense, really, even if that sounds a little strong - that perhaps you guys should consider getting over yourselves and your body parts, and rather use your time and energy for better purposes. ... just my opinion.
We learn from history that we learn nothing from history - Tom Veneziano
>The subject was whether the scanners can exhibit failure, not precedent of exhibited failures
>please link to one instance of historical TSA failure
Though it sounds like GP was implying TSA's claims of historically faulty equipment were just blame dodging, that their machines work just fine and aren't the real reason the TSA has accomplished jack shit (except theater and boondoggle).
As a non-American it seems Westboro-level nutty that anybody would step into those X-ray scanners without lead covers for my privates and head.
Isn't that an inalienable right granted by the Constitution? The same Constitution that doesn't apply within 100 miles of international airports?
What evidence would you expect to find if that happened? All I can think of is an apparently random group of people showing up with cancer over the next couple of decades...and good luck in either tying that back to the malfunctioning machines or in getting recompense.
If they claim their machines aren't working, I suspect that either they're lying or the malfunction inconveniences them. If they claim they're working fine, I don't think they mean the machines aren't injuring those being scanned. (FWIW, I really suspect they're too incompetent to have a valid opinion about that.)
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
Not a threat until someone opens up the headrest screen and inserts the SD card into the computer there, infecting the whole plane with a Mac-virus and forces it to fly into a building!
A Mac-virus can only force it to fly into an alien spaceship.
Guilty until proven innocent?
It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
I've heard that doesn't work.
There have been reports of people deciding not to go on their trip when confronted with an invasive security procedure, and then being detained and questions at that point.
Their obvious reasoning being that if you suddenly change your mind you must be hiding something you thought would be revealed if you'd continued.
Just like the old Wargames joke: Seems the only way to win is not to play.
I wouldn't fly if there was no security. You dumbasses act like you don't have shit to live for. Go fuck your selves. I want as much safety as possible. I hate transpiration when I can't control my movements. I sure as hell don't want to worry about crazy assholes with nothing to live for taking down a plane, in addition to the mechanical failure of the plane and other logistical issues already in play. Stay the fuck out of my country and walk your ass to your car, if you don't want to fly be the rule.
SPP was ended long ago. A whopping 10-12 airports got permission.
(Sarasota, FZl, being one is almost a joy to fly out of. Worlds apart from the DHS monsters elsewhere.)
IIRC, it has been officially declared that anyone within 200 miles of an international air port or a border is living in an area where the border police (I forget the term used) can harass them as they see fit without warrant or explained cause. (I think they're supposed to actually have a cause, but they don't need to let you know what it is.)
And, IIRC, this was accepted by the Supreme Court.
I, personally, believe this to be one, among many other, decisions that the Supreme Court made in defiance of the clear wording of the constitution. OTOH, I also believe that if the constitution were strictly enforced as written, that the country would be ungovernable. Unfortunately, instead of patching the constitution in the manner provided, the government has preferred to ignore it while pretending not to.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
Are you aware of the danger of a simple mechanical failure? These are raster machines so they scan you by bombarding you with a paper thin plane beam than pans down your body. If that beam stops, even for a few seconds then it would irradiate the cells along that plane with a massive dose. Not "pseudo science".
That is the thing that concerns me most. The TSA has successfully blocked all attempts to study the effects of both the millimeter wave scanners and the backscatter x-ray devices on people so NO ONE has any idea of what the long term consequences will be. I have also read reports that the devices can destroy medical equipment. If someone is FORCED to go through a body scanner against their will and it damages their pacemaker, is the TSA guilty of murder or will they simply stick their nose in the air "Too bad, so sad. Now get this body out of here?"
The government's attitude does make any sense as it has been proven many many times that the devices simply do not work as advertised.
-- Why not just search everyone walking down the street? After all, it's completely voluntary to walk down the street. No one is forcing you are they? --
----
They have this already -- it's called "Stop and Frisk" -- very common in New York City, *if* you're not the right color.
Yes, we *are* living in a Police State.
At least, some of us are.
If telephones are outlawed, then only outlaws will have telephones.
They cannot opt out and allow people to fly without the search nor can they opt to hire a private party to do the searching for them.
Not entirely true. Any commercial airport can apply to TSA’s Screening Partnership Program (SPP), which allows airports to transition to private screeners. In practice all the lame knee-jerk TSA policies must be enforced. But the private screeners themselves tend to be more honest, friendly, and professional. Several airports in the US have private screeners and I haven't read of a single one being busted for running smuggling or theft rings which happens all the time with TSA agents.
If you knock on my door and ask to use my phone, and I tell ok but only if you give me a handy, that's not forcing you to do anything and it's certainly not sex assault (yet).
You stole my line.
I came to this discussion expressly to point out the same thing. I don't think I could have said it as well.
The Police State wins, I lose.
I opt out just about every time. I take about 14-18 flights a year for business and I have only seen another opt out at the same time as me once in the past few years. There just aren't that many opt outs anymore. I'm not surprised at all that the police state is tightening the noose a bit more. On the plus side for those interested in opting out I have not had any of the experiences that everyone loves to joke about (ie cavity searches, hours of detention, etc). I did once have a TSA officer mouth off about sending me to the back of the line. I reported him to his boss but there was no further incident there. Another time a big burly TSA agent tried to intimidate me which I found funny. He was all talk and I knew that his options were limited. Another time their machine claimed it found something so I was taken to a side room. That time I admit I was wondering what was next but it was just another pat down by a different person who then used a different machine. Opt out while you still can :-)
I'd rather not be irradiated in the first place.
I was going to ask, in that case, how far below ground do you live? Then I realized all that radon, uranium, etc., would probably make below ground a bad choice for avoiding radiation. So instead I'll ask... what planet do you live on?
Ideology: A tool used primarily to avoid the bother of thinking.
It probably is if the person has already paid a $500 nonrefundable fee for the phone call, and then as they enter your house, you tell them, "I have altered the deal. Pray I don't alter it further."
Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.
Yes, it is a completely fallacious argument. I can write anything I want to in a contract, up to and including you giving me your first-born child and your immortal soul, or terms that stipulate that if you back out of a contract, you agree to commit suicide within 72 hours or you must pay me 100% of your wages for the remainder of your natural life. That doesn't mean that such a contract would be enforceable. In this country, unconscionable contract terms are routinely thrown out by the courts, particularly in contracts of adhesion (which any airline ticket purchase is, by definition, because you are not permitted to negotiate the terms of carriage with the airline).
Furthermore, the right to travel (including the right to air travel) is a fundamental component of free speech and free assembly rights, which are protected by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution. Any government action that substantively abridges those rights (as, for example, requiring you to be virtually strip searched prior to boarding an airplane) is a blatantly unconstitutional act that must be overturned by the courts, or else the Bill of Rights has no meaning whatsoever. You cannot sign away your constitutional rights, period. The courts have been very consistent in voicing that opinion.
Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.
The professionalism is an improvement, but since they MUST conform to the TSA policies, it's still imposed by the government in defiance of the Constitution. Also, I said airLINES, not airPORTS.
Ah, but you are not giving up your rights. You are consenting to the search. That's not the same thing in the eyes of the courts. If they suddenly decide that searching the car isn't enough, and they want to subject you to a body cavity search, you have a legal right to refuse that expansion of the search. If you consent to a field sobriety test and fail it, you still have the right to refuse a breathalyzer test or blood test until the police get a warrant. And so on. There are limits, and you have a fundamental legal right to withdraw permission for a search at any time (United States v. Bily, United States v. Al Doc Ho, etc.).
Of course, the decisions in United States v. Herzbrun and others make this somewhat tricky when you're talking about airline travel, but until someone makes a federal case out of this, we won't know how the courts will handle it. However, I would argue that if you consent to a magnetometer check and consent to a pat down, and the agents refuse to allow the pat down and insist on a different means of screening, you are well within your rights to refuse such an outrageous expansion of the nature and invasiveness of the search. And if the courts disagree, then it is time to get new judges.
Actually, it is. The right to keep your own nude form private is just as fundamental a human right as the right to not be a slave. It is the right to maintain basic human dignity, and it is as fundamental and inalienable a right as the rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. As an aside, I find it deliciously ironic that we have this story about the TSA claiming that we don't have that right on the same day as a story from Germany where someone was forced to give up nude photos of his ex-girlfriend after they broke up. The stark contrast between the increasing freedom of Europe and the rising fascism in the United States should be downright terrifying to every American (and, for that matter, to people everywhere).
Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.
Perhaps I should have said "I'd rather not subject myself voluntarily to additional unnecessary and ineffectual radiation" since that would appear to appease the pedantic types. I'll repeat that no documentation exists (at least the last time I checked) of exactly what these machines exactly spit out, how much, what their variance is, and exactly what effect it has on people. Or even animals. No testing was done. When is the last time you saw entirely unregulated electronics being used on general populations?
The cesspool just got a check and balance.
If enough of us stand up there is a chance, if everyone continues to be spineless sheep then we are screwed.
I'm sorry, but there are extremely few people that see these body scanners as bad (actually most people are probably in alignment with the TSA's stance which is that they are efficient [notice I didn't say effective]). If they don't allow folks to opt-out, only those who have been opting-out all along (I'm one of them, and I've never seen another person voluntarily opting-out) are going to be put in the decision of giving in and going through the machine or canceling their trip (probably after being interrogated by the TSA). Virtually no one else is going to protest. By the way, there are many in this thread who are forgetting that the pat down is just as much a violation of your rights as the scanner.
I want to know how you think that the patdown is somehow less of a violation your body and rights as the machine (I'm not trying to be aggressive here, I'm genuinely curious). I fly about every other month and I've never done the machine, but I'm not under the impression that the patdown isn't a violation of my rights (or less so, indeed I'd argue it's even more 'intimate' than the scanner), it's just that I need to fly and have to do one of them to pass through security. I suppose I started opt-ing out as partly protest, partly against someone looking at my essentially nude body, and partly not sure of the technology. Now that years have passed and the push-back from the public has been extremely minimal, those of us in this camp are going to just have to accept that the vast majority of folks don't have a problem with these searches. That doesn't mean they aren't wrong, it's just that we don't have the numbers to affect change.
Side question - I have opted out since Day 1. 98% of the time when I opt out, they take me through a little side gate and I skip the scanner AND the metal detector. Have you had the same experience? I am OK with the metal detector but have not had to do it since the opt out for scanner option is there.
Sorry I have no answers for your questions, but also interested in the replies you get here.
Thanks
Self Defense - A Human Right www.a-human-right.com
The scary thing is that when they pat you down your bags are often out of sight. Which opens up the door to a system being compromised. An SD card could also be compromised at the same time if it contains an operating system... or similar. If the OS/hardware is compromised all bets are off.
I've been opting out. Just did in November, coming back from Disney. I was actually a little surprised how politely and efficiently/effectively the pat-down was done, as previous times, I was not impressed.
The possibility that I will no longer be able to opt out means I will no longer be spending my tourist dollars in the USA. Do you hear that Disney? I'm spending my $$ elsewhere.
I agree wrt rights but pat-downs generally don't produce electronic image files that live forever in TLA data centers and possibly beyond.
If a few of you are going and it's not an overseas trip then charter a small jet. It's not that much more expensive and sometimes it's less expensive than flying first class as a group. If you're nice and the pilot is cool then you might be allowed to fly the plane. And it is awesome.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
I am not advocating anything but I am reminding...
You are ruled by consent. If you, and your fellow citizens, desire a change in governance then you have the power to enact such changes. You just have to be REALLY sure you want to make those changes and you're going to need a bunch of people who agree with those changes.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
The funny part is that we probably built and paid for the infrastructure that they enjoy and will have to do it again - if history is any indication. For some reason, and I'm not sure why, they've a strange desire to bomb themselves into rubble every few generations and then whine for assistance. I know, I know... Some folks don't like to hear this but, well, all evidence points to this being their typical behavior.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
I've got that one covered. I'll just start driving naked. It'll save some time. Really, though...
I mentioned this the other day but in different context. For a while, I was an escort/chaser (transportation officer) at a military detention facility. This entails picking up prisoners at airports, taking them to the medical appointments, taking them to court, etc... Yes, we're armed and, if it's a large group, one of us is armed with a shotgun. See, you're surrounded by tarmac generally and you don't actually shoot the prisoner if they're trying to escape. You aim about (varied) 5 yards behind the running prisoner and the slug flattens out on the tarmac and then hits 'em in the back. (Ideally, this doesn't kill them. It does, on the other hand, stop them. There are no warning shots.)
Anyhow, that's just some background information. My job was to transfer detainees and part of that job was, at times, to pat them down. We're pretty particular about the process and it's not like you've seen on television or maybe had from your friendly neighborhood cop. It's also nothing like what the TSA does.
Now, I was enlisted in the Marines which means that I transported Marines (and we did have a few guys from the Navy stop in on a transfer) and we Marines have a rather unusual sense of humor. We're also not bashful. So...
The next time they pat you down, open your mouth about half way, let your jaw hang loosely, lean back a little, close your eyes so that they're almost shut, and (not loudly) moan just enough for the person doing the pat search can hear you.
You will leave a lasting impression on them. They will remember you for the rest of their life.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
Fat and ugly people get a free pass. I only scan the hot chicks.
I'm not saying that I agree with anything or that I disagree with anything. I'm simply going to point this out:
I fly, multiple times per year most years, and I generally do not deal with the TSA at all. I have not flown out of NY as an origination point but I have stopped and fueled up in NY. I am not a pilot nor do I own my own plane. I simply charter a small jet if I'm going somewhere quickly or if I want friends to come with me. Otherwise, I'm usually in-state or just going to Canada where I deal with customs and just with customs on the way back - no TSA involvement at all.
What to get from this? Well, I'm unsure of the veracity of your NY statement and they, the Powers That Be, might try to claim you can charter a plane thus your right to travel is not being infringed on.
While I do hold an opinion (and it's painfully obvious what opinion I hold) it is irrelevant. So, don't shoot me for being the messenger. ;-) (We probably hold very similar opinions. I'm just too lazy to type it all out.)
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
The amount of ionizing radiation you get from the scanner is radically smaller than the extra amount you are going to get from spending time in an aircraft at 38000 ft, or eating a banana.
First of all, prove it. The TSA has NEVER proven the safety claims that they made.
Secondly, I don't give a shit. It's my body and *I* alone get to decide whether anyone sprays me with X-rays. You do it against my will and it will be construed as assault.
Third, I don't want the TSA taking nudie pics of me or my family only for them to spread them to the internet. Don't say it won't happen because it already has happened before.
If I opt out from the nudie cancer machine and the TSA refuse to allow it, then I'll simply leave the airport and file some lawsuits.
If you refuse, they *will* detain you and do a full cavity search. If you attempt to leave, they will have you arrested and jailed for 48 hours while they interrogate your friends and coworkers about your ties to terrorism. Geht ihr in die Duschen! Ihr reicht wie Schweine!
No they won't. You are free to leave at any time. I've done it before.
I have no idea *what* the TSA teaches but I might find an SD card in a search. As mentioned above, I worked as a transport officer while in the Marines (I'd been in Motor Pool prior as a driver) and learned to do a "proper" search. No, you would not stand for it. We do mouth checks. Your shoes are removed. Your hands are against the wall with your feet back behind you - so that you can not get leverage and harm us. We check your hair. We check your seams on your clothing. We do check private parts but we don't grab and feel around.
Your best hiding spot would be to wrap it in a condom, tie the end, and put it in your mangina. Your butt-cheeks might work but do you *really* want to tape it? I'm gonna find it in your wallet. I'm gonna find it in your phone (if it's hidden in anywhere like the battery case or something). I'm gonna find it in your sock. I'm gonna find it where you cut a slit and put it in your waistband. I'm gonna find it in your hat. I'm gonna make you shake your hair and do it repeatedly in different directions. It's gonna be a minute but I'm going to do it properly every single time and I'm going to find it unless you put it in your butt (or swallow it) or, maybe, tape it to your butt cheeks. I'm gonna find it if you tape it to your leg. Or to your foot. Or up your nose. You could, probably, tape it to your nuts or dick. I'd not find that.
While I did do strip searches (and I might find it in your anus - you squat and cough a half dozen times with your cheeks spread out and it glints 'cause I gotta shine a flashlight at it while you do that) they're probably not going to make you do that before a flight. So, you're good there - hopefully.
And, I gotta tell ya... I know, I've been strip searched too, that it is dehumanizing to be stripped but it's not that cool to be the guy who has to do it or be in there with you. It's far more dehumanizing to be the striped than it is to be the observer but no part in that aspect of detainment is enjoyable. Fortunately, I seldom had to strip the detainees. It was not normally my job but certain high level inmates go through a slightly different protocol and thus we get to escort them all the way inside. Doing that is a pain in the arse. You've got to secure your weapon, deal with paperwork, log your weapon, secure your gear, etc... And, you gotta strip 'em out.
Anyhow, I guess the point is, if you want to get an SD card through a real pat-search then you probably want to go with the condom in the butt option. The TSA isn't going to be fondling your cock and balls or sliding a few fingers up your ass crack - or even checking/patting the underside of your foot and between your toes. But, you know, if you actually have something important and you don't want them to find it then the butt is probably your best option. You can swallow it but I'm not sure how well the condom will hold up to the acid.
Also, I might have not mentioned something but, trust me, we searched that too - within reason. If they had justification then they'd bring a physician in and do cavity searches. Nothing from the outside ever made it into the secure area as far as I know - even the guards got searched. I only had to go as far as the sally port most of the time. Had I gone past that (like in training) then I too would have been searched. However, I am kind of hoping the TSA doesn't ever reach that sort of level. It'd take a lot of time, be really bad as far as liberty and freedom is concerned, and would piss me off to no end. Though, I suppose, it'd probably stop a passenger from getting on the plane with a pair of fingernail clippers - if they hired competent people.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
It'd be pretty damned hard for them to state the number they missed. After all, by definition, they missed them. I clicked the link and, sadly, they also got someone's 1918 trench. It looks like a reproduction so it's no big loss but it'd still kind of suck as even some of the reproductions are nice.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
Actually, I meant By law, but I fat fingered it.
You do realize that there's about 2.1 billion commercial airline trips taken every year? Even with your 0.00015% number (which I'm sure you pulled right out of your ass) that's over 3,000 cases of cancer a year. Which is more than the terrorists have managed to kill during any year, including 2001.
Whenever you can, fly charter. Yeah, it's expensive but not overly so IF a few of you are going and you'd have taken first class. It's worth the additional expense unless you're going to go overseas - then it can be expensive as all hell. I once looked into charting a flight to Egypt. Heh... No... I did not take it.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
That leaves an awful lot of second class citizens who can't afford their Constitutional rights.
In addition to posting here, make sure that you go to the TSA website and file a complaint against their new policy. The more of us that make noise, the harder it will be for them to do this.
https://apps.tsa.dhs.gov/tsacontact/DynaForm.aspx?FormID=10
Remember these are unlicensed medical devices. More importantly, we should have full control over any radiation that is subjected upon our bodies by man made means.
A pat down is a violation but at least I don't get exposed to unknown rays in a TSA booth of unknown specifications, nor do I have to worry about nude pictures of me or my family ending up on the net. There is also the added bonus of putting the TSA people into the degrading position of having to touch my nuts like the little bitches that they are.
Ma'am I could pat you down and get a thrill today, but I'm gonna have thrills for the rest of my days from the photos I'll take of you when I force you through the body scanner
No. That's 0.00015 increase in people dying of cancer. That is for every million people who would normally die of cancer, there will instead be be 1,000,001.5 people dying.
And the number was taken from estimates based on the level of radiation. May have miscalculated my percentage, but the estimate is 6 deaths per year, assuming the risk scales linearly with radiation dose.
According to This article, there were more than 30000 terrorism victims last year.
Out of interest, did they have to pay for those pumps?
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Who knows exactly how much radiation the things put out,the government lies about so many things why not this.also we should have the right to refuse any amount of radiation.why can't they specifically tell us who and why you can't opt out?Its so they can harass whomever they want.The truth is if they just targeted Arab people we would be 99% safer,you might say that's racist but it's true!
And with their 96% failure rate apparently 775 loaded guns went through undetected *this week*.
Still think they are "doing something right"?
In my county seat there are no entrance scanners. Next county over, yah.
In my county seat there are no entrance scanners. Next county over, yah.
Your county rocks! Rural area?
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
Not only do I not have to wait in line, but I walk my happy ass through a metal detector without removing any clothing.
In case you guys didn't realize. There is a reason for everything the TSA does. Have to take your shoes off and want to complain? Google Richard Reed, the idiot who tried to blow up a plane with a bomb in his shoe. Want to complain about the body scanner (which by the way, you get radiation from your cellphone, flying in a plane, computer and a multitude of ways) you can thank the Christmas bomber who decided he wanted to try and blow a plane up with a bomb that was in his underwear. So I urge you to stop being so damn ignorant. And research before you want to sue or bitch. Americans "know" their rights. But you want to complain when TSA is preventing another 9-11
When do you stop being so fucking ignorant? There are other modes of transportation. Don't like security at the airport. Don't fucking fly
You get radiation from the fucking plane and your cellphone and a microwave and a computer and any other electronics. Please stop making Americans look bad because you are ignorant
This is yet another reason not to fly and if your employer requires you to travel, ask if they will allow you to take a train or drive to your destination. If they won't due to it taking more time, see if you can take vacation leave for this extra time. Just keep in mind when traveling by train that carrying cash is a big no-no. The DEA, Local police departments, and even the TSA will often stop trains and seize money that they believe is involved in illegal activities such as drugs. In fact, the DEA use to get a list of Amtrak passengers and pick potential targets to search when they do a sweep of a train at a stop. If you must carry cash, use travelers cheques. This way if it is seized by the DEA, TSA/DHS, or a local police department it is useless since you can report these travelers cheques as stolen. You may want to do this if driving or using another mode of transport such as a bus or by boat. The TSA has set up VIPR checkpoints in bus and train stations and plan to expand this program to include setting up road blocks so even driving yourself to a destination could result in an encounter with the TSA or other agency and any cash could be seized.
Don't be surprised if the no-fly list is expanded. We are already hearing talk of making it a reason for denial of a gun purchase if you are on the no-fly list even though a lot of people are on the no-fly list who are not threats to national security and have never been in trouble with the law. I wouldn't be surprised if someday you will be denied a drivers license or entrance to federal buildings if you are on the no-fly list. Eventually Amtrak and other modes of transport may also be required to deny people on the no-fly list from being able to travel with them.
Wanting to go see grandma does not equal wanting to get skin cancer and nowhere on an airline ticket does it say you will be forced to endure radiation
I don't like these scanners either, but please don't be an idiot. The amount of ionizing radiation you get from the scanner is radically smaller than the extra amount you are going to get from spending time in an aircraft at 38000 ft, or eating a banana.
That is certainly true if the software is working correctly, and keeping those rasters scanning. Can you verify that that is true for each machine you go through?
The TSA is expanding to trains, bus stations, stadiums, malls, and other events through their VIPR program. They are even planning to set up road blocks in the future to screen for "terrorists".
I'd rather not be irradiated in the first place.
And please indicate where these are at all effective.
They were quite effective in getting Michael Chertoff consulting and lobbying income, which is their only true purpose.
I do have to say that 99% of the TSA agents I've encountered have been unflaggingly polite.
I've found them almost invariably to be rude jerks, especially when I ask questions like "why do I have to do this?" Or make statements like "no thank you" or "can I please speak to your supervisor?" Fuck the TSA, bunch of parasites.
As an aside, my idea to re-allocate the funds from the TSA, still provide jobs for under qualified people, AND fix the economy, is to put these guys to work implementing the metric system. Instead of impeding progress at the airport, these people can be out in the USA working to make the country more competitive with the rest of the world. Fix road signs, labels etc. They still have jobs, but instead of being an impediment to commerce they are slowly making commerce more efficient in today's global economy.
So you act like an asshole to people just doing their job, and you're upset with their rude attitude? Maybe they're rude to you because you're a sociopath.
Out of interest, did they have to pay for those pumps?
Medtronic replaced the 5 cases with which I am directly familiar; I do not know about the other 4.
My thinking is that the politics is such that the replacements are both free positive publicity, and a reminder not to take the things through devices which emit X-rays (even if it's a side effect, rather than an intended primary effect, of the AIT's). Also not certain whether there's an anti-AIT agenda at the company, or not, but replacing devices has got to be something they do not typically look forward to doing, despite the publicity, so it would not surprise me.
Thanks for the follow up answer.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
It does and it is unfortunate. Thus, "Whenever you can." For some that is never, for others? Maybe. Better if some know that they can opt to do so than none know at all. It's more efficient and less expensive if you're going with a small party. It's not as speedy and there generally aren't any service personnel on the flights I've taken but it's nicer in many ways. Hell, we've even had firearms with us - in the cabin. (Locked in cases - we were going hunting and had lots and lots of gear.)
So, if you can afford it and you want to avoid the TSA then keep it in mind. It's not perfect and it doesn't help most folks in most situations, probably. It is, however, an option to know about. (And if you're lucky and they like you then they'll maybe let you fly the plane for a while. And it is awesome.)
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
On the other hand, if the people most likely to have political influence have no out, they might use that influence to change it.
That's a very valid point and one I'd not thought of. I'm not sure how one could go about enacting changes like that but it's certainly an interesting idea. I suspect the majority of politicians are on the fast track (I've forgotten the name) list or just charter. I seem to recall a recent story about a mayor (from LA?) that got held up in TSA and had to spend a night locked down or some crap like that. I've not seen anything more about it.
Hmm... Google is not finding anything but I know it was on Slashdot. Well, I'm reasonably certain it was on here.
If it's any consolation, I'm moderately likely to be the State Senator to represents my district in Maine after the 2016 election. You can't vote for me and I'll not be able to do a damned thing about the TSA. Maybe I can float a bill, or get a public referendum started, that requires State officials to fly commercial on any/all State related trips? I believe the current process allows them a certain dollar value and they can then put their own money in and travel by any means they want. So, they can drive or fly commercial - and not 'upgrade' to a private charter. That would have a *very* good chance of passing in Maine.
As a citizen, you can write it up and try to get your reps to sponsor a similar bill at the federal level (and State level), I guess. There are probably other ways to go about it but it might be interesting to see how they react. I'm pretty sure that most of 'em aren't going to be too interested. In Maine, anyone can propose a bill if you get enough signatures. Of course, getting them to act on it is tough. Maine was going "green" quite early and actually voted for medical marijuana many years ago but the government dragged it out, took it to court, added some requirements with another law, refused to fund it, etc... (It's legal now and it's been a civil offense for a *very* long time.)
I'll have to think about it. I doubt there will be much that I can do but I'll do what I can. I might only be able to make a little noise. I don't plan on running for a second term so I can actually do the "right thing" while serving because I don't need to worry about vindictive people. Then again, if I do the "right thing" they may want me to run again and I'm loathe to do so. I've better things to do with my time - even if it's just posting on Slashdot. I am retired for a reason, I am inherently lazy. It's not my fault, it's the laws of the universe. Entropy and all that...
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
Maybe I can float a bill, or get a public referendum started, that requires State officials to fly commercial on any/all State related trips? I believe the current process allows them a certain dollar value and they can then put their own money in and travel by any means they want. So, they can drive or fly commercial - and not 'upgrade' to a private charter. That would have a *very* good chance of passing in Maine.
It's not a bad start. Who knows, perhaps someone at the state level will learn a thing or two from the experiance and apply it when they climb the ladder to the federal level.
I have one rep who might actually give it some thought (and another who tends to send me form letters thanking me for supporting his position when I adamantly opposed it).
No, you dont have a clue where I fit. I would not forfeit my rights for convenience. And I wont be bullied by anyone to do so either. But that's not the point. The person I responded to was making a wholly false assertion, and I was merely correcting it.
"But we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it,..." - Nancy Pelosi
You are right on two counts.
1) If you deny the terms of the purchase, the agreement is not made and you neither pay or get your ticket to fly.
2) The TSA is a govt agency.
You are wrong on another :
1) It is entirely possible to hire a private plane and circumvent most if not all TSA involvement. (Depending on the airport you will fly to/from.) It costs more than you or I have, but it's not denied us by law.
"But we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it,..." - Nancy Pelosi
That's also not an airline, that's a charter service where you are chartering the plane, not a seat or two.
And by being unreachable for most, it's not a valid out for freedom of travel.
You make an interesting point about the expansion of the search. Wouldnt that become a matter of the contract? You have consented to "search". Unless the contract specifically identifies the methods and limits of the search does that make it less enforceable? ( Honest question, I dont know.)
You second argument per the inalienable right to to human dignity though, suggests that you cannot allow a body search. Period, under any circumstances. While I like the sound of it on it's surface, it raises many more questions. For instance, it would suggest that even if officers had probably cause, they could never search your person. It could never be done without a warrant, suggesting that probably cause is itself unlawful. I will agree every day of the week and twice on saturday that probably cause is abused. But I cant quite find conviction in myself that it is without value or legal standing. (Although I think I would like it to fail.)
"But we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it,..." - Nancy Pelosi
Honest question:
Do you know if airlines are required to use TSA security? I'm not sure that they are. It was my impression that the liability insurance to not use it made it too expensive for them to operate.
"But we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it,..." - Nancy Pelosi
As I understand it, an airport MAY hire private security, but it is required by law to implement all TSA policies. Since that insludes screening ALL passengers, the airlines have no opt out at all.
Charter companies can skip the TSA and often do, but few can afford to charter a private plane. I suspect it is no coincidence that the people rich enough to demand that TSA lighten up are given an easy (for them) way to bypass it.
Not only are the detectors practically useless (one episode of testing managed to sneak 7 weapons through on one guy..), they are hazardous for your health.
Terahertz radiation can damage DNA. Mutations for the sake of security company profits are an excellent scam, don't you think?
Those scanners cant see anything under folds of skin or inside you. SD card is a piece of piss to sneak through them, as you don't go through the metal detectors when using the DNA raping scanners..
If elected, I'll see that it is proposed assuming that's something my constituents want me to do. My goal will be to represent them as best as I can. That may mean that I don't always get to act of my own volitions - because I am, specifically, promising not to. I'll be listening to the people who elected me and then asking smart people to help me make choices. I'll then vote according to the wishes of my constituents where possible which means not allowing a tyranny of the majority where the result is demonstrably harmful.
I'll see about getting it written up and share a copy when/if I do - if you're interested. Your legislation may have differences that make the two incompatible but it might be close enough to give them a starting point to work with.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
I would be interested. It sounds like we're pretty much on the same page here.
Your PM system is duly noted. Email is also available and checked on a semi-regular basis. I'll save the post count increase by posting AC, but this is obviously KGIII,
I have been opting out for years and appreciate my right to do so. If push comes to shove I would cancel my trip if I was compelled.
Is any analysis available if I would be able to get a refund from Visa in this circumstance? Is any documentation possible to get from TSA possible to support such a claim. And is there any other form of non violent protest that I can do on the spot which would not get me put in jail / shit / no-fly listed?
Seeking serious answers for a principled person.
I haven't checked for further updates to TSA policy, but their policy has been that once you start the security screening process, you *can not leave* until they are done screening you. Under penalty of arrest. Meaning if they insist on running you through the scanner, and refuse your opt-out, the only way you can leave without going through the scanner is by going to jail. Yes, really.
Both statements cant be true.
You cant say that every airport MUST meet all TSA requirements and MUST screen all passengers, and that charter companies can skip TSA requirements. Charter companies fly from airports, as do private pilots flying their own aircraft.
Think about it, it'll come to you.
Flying east cost to west coast doesn't give you a lot of options. And how do you get to other continents? Do you really think an ocean liner is a realistic option for most people?
And I bet TSA regularly tests and certifies their scanners making this documentation available . . . not.
Since this agency has repeatably mislead and lied to the public and continues to do so, forgive me for not taking their word about the safety of their scanners.
If they were only using millimeter wave RF then I would have no complaint about physical effects (as long as they are either regularly tested for output power or incapable of producing dangerous levels of millimeter wave RF) but many of the scanners they installed use x-rays and TSA is remarkably opaque about everything they do.