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The President Wants Every Student To Learn CS. How Would That Work? (npr.org)
theodp writes: The very first proposal President Obama put forth in his final State of the Union address Tuesday night for his remaining year in office was "helping students learn to write computer code." While the President wants every student to learn CS, NPR notes that getting a new, complex, technical subject onto the agendas of our public schools is a massive challenge, prompting it to ask, How Would That Work? That Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella attended the SOTU address as Michelle Obama's guest suggests the President is counting on the kindness of tech titans to help make things happen. Microsoft and Obama have worked together to try to get CS in the schools since at least 2006, when Microsoft announced a $1 million donation to NCWIT, which it indicated would facilitate "taking the discussion to a national stage" at a Washington, D.C. Innovation and Diversity Town Hall co-sponsored by the NSF and keynoted by then-Senator Barack Obama. "Most of all, what inspires me about this program [NCWIT] are the prospects of my two daughters," Obama said at the time (video). "I want them to go as far as their dreams may take them. And, unfortunately because of long historic discrimination in the areas of gender, we can't be assured of that."
Why is the purpose must be to make it "work" in the first place?
It wouldn't.
A lot of women also want to be able to be stay at home moms, supported by a husband on a single income. The effect of driving down wages in our field means it's that much harder for any woman married to a man in our field to have that option. What our economic policies mean for a lot of women in general is that should they want to give up their career, they can't, because cheap labor is more important than economic flexibility.
If you call programming creating Wordpress sites, then fine, everyone can code.
Otherwise, programming is little more than an IQ test. That means only the top x% have any hope when they start to learn to code of ever being any good at it. I fully support using the Purple Book ( https://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/ ) for intro to CS. If you can finish it, you rock. You are welcome to keep going. Otherwise: Be happy. You failed fast. Your calling is elsewhere.
It is the same as asking EVERY student to become proficient in Science, Technology, Engineering and Math. I don't know anyone who is proficient in all four.
Individuals are inclined to one or two things. Trying to force them into doing something they truly are not interested in has always been a failure.
A statement from an Idiot (and racist) who doesn't know what he is talking about. Imagine that.
If one, anyone, of any gender or race, has the desire to code, they will. If the 'fire burns' nothing will stop them. Look up Grace Hopper as the perfect example.
This is just as clueless as Nancy Pelosi telling everyone to go out and be Writers Living on Welfare. Wow.
History shows us that if Microsoft is involved, education will be harmed, and Microsoft will get money somehow, even if not getting paid directly. Do not ignore the lessons of history. Corporations don't change their stripes unless forced, and Microsoft was explicitly not punished in any way after the DoJ found they were Guilty of illegally abusing their monopoly position... and basically every possible kind of anticompetitive behavior.
Some people are never going to be good programmers. That's okay, because we don't need everyone to be a programmer. We don't actually need that many of them; we already have massive duplication of effort right now, and don't need more. We already have massive joblessness in the sector right now, and don't need more of that either.
It would be valuable to teach "everyone" more computer skills, since they are only becoming more common, and I personally believe that it would be valuable to teach them all a little programming. Don't try to make everyone into a programmer, computer scientist, whatever the goal is. But it is senseless for us to continually integrate computing further and further into our lives without coming to a greater understanding of it. A little programming knowledge will give people an appreciation of the complexity of the systems they're currently casually throwing their personal information into the void with.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Do they tell us a lot about the sciences of Math, Physics, Law, Economy, Languages, Biology etc. at school? :-)
I'd say not - we get some ideas from basic bootcamp, some common applications and more is served if you opt for higher education.
I guess the same goes for "CS" - for me, I'd be glad if I could assume everyone that I work with to have a _basic_ common understanding of this computer stuff, I don't need scientists
Enough people fail to grasp the concept of a variable that I can confidently predict that the "anyone can code" mentality will hit an unassailable obstacle and be abandoned. The only question is how long it will take for this particular neurosis to metastasise and die.
He stands in front of a camera and says: "I want every Student to learn CS!" ...
1) have a goal which is doable e.g. basic CS
1) Make a curriculum offering very basic CS (In France when i was 11 it was some absic stuff like convert binary/hex, understand processor (basic level) RAM , how basic programs works (used logo and basic for this) and have a project (often this was a game to wake interest in all people)
2) Hire people and add 1 or 2 hours to curriculum. Personally i recommend to do it early as it was done in my "experimental" middle school : 11 or 12 year old. I credit it to my lifelong interest into computers.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
Programming is a horrible job.
Anyways, with the current shift away from computers and digital technology back to reliable analog electronics, programming will shortly be a useless and unnecessary skill.
In a couple generations there won't be any more whites
Mod parent up +1, frank.
...well, that's how I read it the first time.
What this world is coming to - is for you and me to decide.
I've corrected the summary: All the female child coders are going to take theodp's job! It is the same summary as every other one of theodp's submissions.
Thanks for clearly demonstrating and showing us that racism and Bigotry are not only a "white" problem. Nicely done. Seems clear it's just the reverse now.
Some would be interested in it and learn to program. The rest will crib the homework from them. Come tests, teachers will game the system to produce the required outcome to still get government money.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
And include computer languages in the group. Voila!
Suppose we teach more CS. Given the finite number of hours/week kids will be studying, what will we drop from the curriculum to make room for CS?
Oh, wait, this came from a politician's speech. Real-world trade-offs don't exist.
Why is it that the President just doesn't "get it" when it comes to value-add with a proposal like this?
At best, this reminds me of the 90's when Must Consult Someone Experienced re-defined the "paper" MCSE's that were manufactured out of that era.
Let's do a quick test here. What would be more valuable to the average citizen to learn, some CS programming or learning the basics about our legal system to ensure you procure proper insurance and know the difference between a will and a living will?
Sadly, the threat of litigation is FAR higher for the average American citizen than facing a life-or-death situation where you can whip out your shitty CS skillz you learned in a semester or two.
You crying, bitch? White boys got to try not that a black man is no longer under massah whip. Learn to love it white fucker. There's more of it coming. Blacks are going to show you how it's done. You whites ain't nothing but big talking shit. You can't stop us.
So ... he's a great president 'cause he is black?
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
He's half white you racist dummy, lol.
This is only said for political brownie points. Obama isn't stupid. He knows that there a mandatory plumbing, electrical, machining, etc. class makes just as much sense, but computer programming is a lot flashier and will get all of the bobblehead sycophants nodding their heads in unison.
If you want to go as far as your dreams and beyond, CS and programming will severely limit your options. As a systems developer or sysadmin, you'll be shielded from: money, career, influence, control, direction, support and lastly hope.
Good luck with your continued efforts of empoverishing your population!
suggests the President is counting on the kindness of tech titans to help make things happen.
Is the government seriously incapable of putting together a computer science curriculum???
And, unfortunately because of long historic discrimination in the areas of gender, we can't be assured of that.
He has the daughters of a president. They will be well into the upper 5% or 1%, will have connections any other person could only dream of, and are almost guaranteed an easy life into doing whatever it is they want to do. You are saying these ladies are worse off than a boy from a smalltown like Stillwater, Pennsylvania, who will earn maybe $50,000 per year as a construction worker? Seriously?
There is indeed something widely missing from American public schools, and that we should certainly be adding. It's called logic. To my knowledge, most American public schools don't even teach it at all, and even most higher level schools skip right over. THAT'S what all this effort should be directed at, and it pains me every single time I hear a story about computer science in school and not that.
"Set a man a fire, he'll be warm for the rest of the night. Set a man afire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life."
How about Gym/PE? It is a completely ridiculous to be "teaching" it at school. It doesn't provide enough exercise to make the kids healither. It is an hour, once a week. Useless. There is no tradeoff here, there are plenty of subjects that can be dropped.
As long as he grasps the fact that that means there won't be any blacks either.
When I went to school, in the mid-80s, we were taught BASIC and Pascal, which was a good springboard to languages like C. Today, we have the benefit of more mature, object-oriented languages like Java which are great for educational use, but instead, my son's high school teaches with App Inventor, which is like teaching shop class with LEGOs.
We also have the benefit of great, now classic, books like the Gang Of Four's Design Patterns. We should be teaching kids something useful out of high school, yet we no longer do.
I'm mentoring on my son's Robotics Team, and find myself having to teach them Java programming from the ground up. I suppose it is good for them, but I'm not a teacher, I'm an engineer. Still, we are managing, and they are learning. I'd prefer it if a professional instructor had prepared them better, though.
Shame on educators for having gone this route.
You are a laughable caricature, a bad stereotype. You are some middle-class kid playing the low-IQ gansta' role to try and intimidate your 'friends.' You are not very good at it.
The person you are trying to convince of this garbage is yourself, and again, not very good at it. You are clearly a Racist and a Bigot though. Oh and you forgot to use the N-word repeatedly. Clearly a Poser.
Look up Neil Degrasse Tyson to show you how a MAN acts, rather than a spoiled child crying for his momma'. Otherwise, enjoy your life of poverty.
-1 nigger getting too big for his britches.
troll
So IEEE and BLS say there is no growth in the field for the next 10 years, and now it is #1 on the menu?? Sounds like a political version of techtopus, but applied to every citizen. Instead of robbing ~100k engineers, they are robbing 300 million citizens. Wow.
https://pando.com/2014/01/23/the-techtopus-how-silicon-valleys-most-celebrated-ceos-conspired-to-drive-down-100000-tech-engineers-wages/
Mr. O, you are doing the next generation a stunning dis-service. Not like you have enough brain cells to understand that, but you are. Why not force them all to become lawyers? Then you will know at least 1/3 of them will get to have careers.
http://www.americanbar.org/publications/gp_solo/2012/september_october/myth_upper_middle_class_lawyer.html
Of course, you could enable them to actually CREATE VALUE, so we could start having an economy again. Yeah, not on the menu for this century, right?
"In a couple generations there won't be any more whites and we'll be done with your shit."
When we're gone, you will then be dealing with the Asians. Good luck with that.
If every student should learn programming, than they should also learn astrophysics, and architecture, and rocket science, and medicine, and every other job there is. Or should they?
Some people have a talent for programming. Others for astrophysics, or architecture. Before making statements about CS and programming, people should acquire a basic knowledge about what CS is. Apparently, Mr Obama doesn't have that knowledge. That's a pity, because I know that at least one of his advisors does.
no, I don't have a sig
or minecraft?
When I graduated in 92, we had an optional computer programming course in AppleSoft Basic. I even took a course in 1988 in 8th grade. This was at a regular public school in a small middle class town in the south.
The president is proposing that students be able to take at least take a single course in CS. They aren't mandating that it becomes everybody's major. I think a bit of exposure to CS will do the world a huge favor. Maybe my kids will grow up in a world where the laptop is not known as the "hard drive", and a monitor is not known as a "computer". Maybe if people understand the basic underpinnings of the Internet, privacy won't written off as something nerds care about. Maybe, just maybe, if people are comfortable with even using the computer, we will actually experience that thing people keep referring to as "the year of Linux!" Heck, maybe this initiative will turn out some people who understand that coping a file takes 10 seconds, but building a new application takes longer.
All the kids of the US won't become C++ programmers in one class, but at least they will get some exposure into what programming even means. With any luck, this will inspire some kids who didn't have any exposure into the subject to learn more, and become programmers, or computer scientists, or computer engineers.
Surely someone whose main interest in life is ballet should also learn how to code.
You got a problem with that white faggot?
Yeah, good idea. Let's teach everyone one of the most exportable skills in the world. That should make for a well employed next generation. I guess as long as they all move to India.
How about making sure kids can actually do, let's see, addition, subtraction and multiplication first. Wouldn't that be a good first step. And since the US 'education system' cannot even do that, this is just another 'hype and change' move.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
I've not seen this covered yet.
In the US, many teachers are not even competent enough to pass tests at the grade level they are teaching. (Yep, not kidding.)
So who are going to teach these kids CS? Are the teachers going to stand there with a Basic for Dummies book and (in a bored monotonous tone) "teach" by rote, a subject they don't understand to a bunch of bored kids who aren't even listening?
Huh, I just realized, there would be no better way to destroy a nations interest in programming than that. The Law of Unintended Consequences. And we have a live example. Look what has been done to mathematics in the US. And there you have it.
Student #1: Hey, this says 'press any key'. Where's the any key? ...kill me now...
Student #2: This class culchurly biased, ain't no 'erry' key. We gone sue tha school!
Teacher:
There seems to be a fundamental misconception in this entire dialog between "Computer Science" (as define by the ACM/academic folks and their curriculums) and learning the skills needed to be useful as a Software Engineer in industry. These are very different things. The proponents should be clear exactly what it is they think all kids should be learning: do we want to train them to do research in Computer Science, or do we want them to get a more vocational education for the vast number of non-academic jobs?
Obviously Mr Obama doesn't understand what "writing computer code" involves. It's not something that everyone can do.
When I was a kid my school had a couple Apple II's and we loved to play with the turtle. Why not something simple like that?
It doesn't have to be a deep understanding of CS, but instead a class that covers the core concepts: a basic language, a basic introduction to a data structure or two, and a couple algorithms: what's an algorithm? Kinda like how in Biology class, you get the basics of Biology, and if you like it, you go on to college and realize what you learned in High School was just barely scratching the surface.
I mean, I've made it a hobby to read some "programming for teens" type books and am amused at how when working through the exercises you get a good sense of accomplishment. And then you get to SICP or similar and realize that you've been walking around in baby shoes and now you finally get to something with real meat in it: here be dragons. Anyone can learn to code. Anyone. Can they code worth a damn? Can they code in a manner that is efficient? Can they code in a manner that is readable, maintainable, and well documented? Can they code in a manner that some kid in the Ukraine can't tease out an exploit and use it to steal every penny your grandma has in savings? Those are not so easy.
If you were me, you'd be good lookin'. - six string samurai
Consider that hundreds of years ago, most common people could not read or write. It was not necessary for survival. They could speak a language and that was all that was necessary. Reading and writing became necessary. Now, most common people can read and write. That doesn't mean that they will be doing it professionally.
Maybe a better analogy is advanced maths. 99% of people need only to add, subtract, multiply, and divide. Most people live quite well without calculus. We teach advanced maths in our schools so that familiarization of the concepts will expose those with talent to see their potential. CS will work the same way. Some people will have talent and some won't. Those who don't will stop taking CS after "Introduction to CS"
Instead of focus on CS, how about we start with something more fundamental ... a science-based and medically accurate, single term, comprehensive, across-the-nation, practical sex education course instead. That'd solve more social problems in the US than teaching a single term of CS. Lower rates of teen pregnancy, lower rates of STDs, healthier relationships, better understanding of the range of normal sexuality, etc. Despite the abstinence-only crap being taught in so many districts, the false info floating around about how one can get pregnant, and the fear-mongering, patriarchal religious nut sacks who equate teens who have had sex with used chewing gum and who think women should have no say in their sexuality, 97% of the population lose their virginity before they hit the age of 20. Maybe we should make sure people know about what the hell they are doing that before teaching CS?
DaveyJJ
You can't even get kids to clean their room.
Since the US is apparently going to be an all service economy with no production or manufacturing. If they're going to have a future, its going to be in customer service.
CS is a subject that can be taught as well any other subject. We don’t expect everyone to become an expert in biology, but they should be familiar with the basics. So we can apply this to CS.
More to the point, promoting CS for everyone is just a way for the pols to claim they are somehow in tune with the current economy.
Either that or it's a means of ensuring a market for computing devices designed to run homemade software, as opposed to iDevices and game consoles where you have to seek the manufacturer's permission (which may be denied for any reason or no reason) in order to program them.
it'll be because their father is a douchebag, not because they're female.
Is "reactionary" a bad word now? I thought we were supposed to be teaching chemistry alongside computer science, not suppressing it.
Tu écris voilà . Les diacritiques, ce sont obligatoires.
Computer programming is a labour intensive job that can be done from anywhere.
With a few provisos. First, the cultures need to match closely enough to minimize loss of information when communicating requirements. Second, the time zones need to match closely enough for clarifications and change requests to be communicated in a timely manner. Third, the field of use needs to be one where sending information out of country does not pose an unacceptable privacy risk.
This is just as clueless as Nancy Pelosi telling everyone to go out and be Writers Living on Welfare. Wow.
Was this intended as a slam against Patreon and other means of Internet patronage?
Play a game of 52 card pickup. Then demonstrate bubble sort, selection sort, insertion sort, binary radix sort ("above or below 7?"), quicksort, merge sort (you take half and I'll take half), and American flag sort (stack all the 3's, stack all the 7's, etc.) physically.
Yes. He is a good president (compared to the ones before at the very least). But not because he's black. Because he's a good president.
If you think the color of the skin of someone matters, well, I guess then you're a racist.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
And Joe Biden is gonna cure cancer! It's going to be a great year!
Show us how it's done, like the fine job done in your native country Africa or ghettos most of you are in here? No thanks. The problems you don't even see yourselves, being into crime and blasting not only each other but others too, are your undoing. The ones doing "the thug life" are only ruining the chances of the good ones among you to do well since you cast a bad outlook on your own people.
Not everyone will be any good. Anyone can learn to draw, but not everyone will be any good. Anyone can learn to play an instrument, but again, not everyone will be any good. There is a teachable component to all of these, but at at least some natural aptitude is involved in performing any skill. Certainly no less important is how much time and energy a person wants to put into actually mastering that skill.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
Women would be paid the same as men.
Poverty would vanish.
People of all genders, races, relgions, and sexual preferences would no longer be discriminated against.
Carbon emissions would recede.
I can't wait!
Given current policy, they would make sure that only "sufficiently diverse" people would benefit. They wouldn't want any white males to have any chance of succeeding over a diversity candidate.
If they really wanted more people in CS, they would kill offshoring and guest worker programs with fire, from orbit. More individuals would be motivated to complete a program with a higher chance of an actual career.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
Given their own issues with overly favoring diversity, I'm not sure that their publications are the best arbiter of CS.
That, and trying to push LISP doesn't do well.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
Teach them a framework for learning when they are young, then they will have the tools to pursue whatever they want later.
sigs are for losers (except to point out that sigs are for losers)
Just because one was lucky (or Asian, given MIT's non-merit preference) enough to be admitted, doesn't mean it is some end-all-be-all to CS.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
Wouldn't it make more sense to teach control of processes, data files and streams(managing them and moving them around), a bit of networking (enough to know how a phone work) and maybe set some kind of bar as to how to use a computer. Doing this on the major operating systems could easily be a one year course. Teaching automation from there would be a natural extension. Multiple contexts could be prepared so that students could learn programming for a subject that they could choose. Has any work been done to find out what would be interesting to the students?
I'm sorry, but that's exactly the same type of moronic "everyone is the same" mentality that has crippled education with standardized tests and made far to many extremely intelligent children (and adults!) feel stupid. It's also a skill that is totally useless to the vast majority of people. I work in the education environment, all of my family does. Just like there are brilliant kids who will never grasp Algebra (another totally useless skill), there are many who would never grasp programming at any meaningful level. Brains are just wired differently. You can overcome that, to a certain extent, but why not let the children embrace the things they are actually *good at* rather than force them down roads of frustration...
I'm deeply, deeply sorry that a progressive President would go down this lane, but as a former teacher I believe the category must fight this to the bitter end. Computers have damaged school like nothing could ever do. And I'm not talking just about the Internet.
Back in the early 1980s when "personal computers" and "home computers" were still toys (and we wish they had remained that way) there was no room in school for such nonsense. School was not only about learning but about experience, and teaching kids how to actually learn and behave in the world they would inherit. We did our best to instill curiosity about the world, even with the limited means at our disposal. We strove to give them a humanist view of the world. Computers are the antithesis to this approach and fortunately the only computer in school was relegated where it belonged: in the principal's office, churning numbers on Visicalc.
Things however would soon take a turn for the worse.
The endless advertisement hammering by the fledgling home computer industry drove some pupils to have their parents buy them those useless machines. I wish parents could have had the wisdom to see where it would lead, but this was sadly not the case. Kids started talking about those "home computers" not just in their spare time but in class. Soon enough more kids were entranced, hypnotized by the new toys. Some wanted to take their computers in class to demonstrate them.
We refused. There was no reason to demonstrate toys in the classroom and we made this absolutely clear. Unfortunately some vocal parent's group got bamboozled by the "computers are the future" ad campaigns and we had to relent. This only had the effect of entrancing more kids, leading them away from serious learning and into the new toys. There were talks of introducing computer "science" and programming to school.
It was at this point that we really started to worry. We introduced new policies that severely punished discussing matters unrelated to learning during class time, and we subtly started downgrading the pupils that expressed interest in computing. Some of us began tolerating - and with heavy heart encouraging - bullying against those pupils, who were berated for being "computah kids" and "nerds". It sounds terrible, I know, but we were trying to save the school, and our children's future.
It was all to no avail, unfortunately. In the end, the school's administration was pressured to have a "computer club", a "computer room" and, of course, "classes" (how can you teach kids to play with a toy?) which took time away from valuable lessons and depleted our budget. The funds carefully saved to finance a class trip to Europe evaporated overnight into a row of shiny, useless machines. Now, instead of walking the streets of Paris and breathing the cultured air of the place, seeing places and works of art with their eyes, and understanding the world in all its differences, pupils would stare at screens watching low resolution renditions of wondrous locales and landmarks. They thought "Carmen Sandiego" was a valid substitute for real-life travel.
From them on things went downhill real fast. Grades went down fast, and we were pressured to "bump" them up a little because it was just not possible that everybody had become stupid so quickly. We knew better but had to relent. In the end, I did the unthinkable and accepted an offer to teach at a private school. I left public school behind forever with an overbearing sense of sadness and went to teach privileged kids who were at least motivated to get a quality education.
This was a long time ago. Now retired, I sometimes hear the lament of the youngest teachers, who have to endure being challenged every day by upstart kids with their smartphones and wikipedia. I know we were right. Computers destroyed American school.
What with their IQ being substantially lower than any other race on Earth...
how about something more useful like English or arithmetic?
Universal CS and universal Math classes (beyond basic arithmetic) serve the same purpose: They aren't about learning specific skills / formulas, they are about learning *logic* (with "whether or not you understand when to apply these formulas" being a straightforward way to test if the lessons are working).
Functional programming is a logical "next step" after learning the basics of y = f(x) when learning basic algebra. There's really no need to go beyond pure functional programming, as anything else risks straying too far into the "practical", which is not why these should be taught.
You are not going to get disinterested students to care about routing protocols which are guaranteed to be out-of-date by the time they are taught.
-- 'The' Lord and Master Bitman On High, Master Of All
what will we drop from the curriculum to make room for CS?
1. Prealgebra. I don't think that prealgebra teaches a single concept that you wouldn't pick up with an intro to programming
2. Geography. I loved my geography class, but let's be honest, it's kind of a pointless filler.
The goal is for every student to learn basic CS, not be an actual computer scientist. Should we stop teaching basic math because of the raw amount of people who end up in engineering and finance roles?
The thought processes taught in beginning CS can be applied to many daily activities. Even, dare I say... ART-RELATED fields.
That's what introductory classes are for. De-mystify software and give children the basic concepts and skills to pursue it, and an opportunity to see if it interests them.
Completely agree. Computer science is not out of reach of most students, but it has to be introduced in proper context.
I think what many people are missing in this "teach compsci!" movement is that a firm understanding of computer science requires a very solid basis in logic and abstract mathematics. Guess what we don't teach in high school? (as far as I know; it wasn't part of my school, and I never see it mentioned in anything I've read about common core, etc.): Basic propositional logic and symbolic logic. Number theory and discrete mathematics. Abstract algebra!! Abstract algebra, at least the basics of groups, is not difficult and out of reach -- we should totally be teaching high schoolers about groups, which awakens the ability to abstract and see patterns, which is fundamentally what programming (and really all of comp sci) is all about.
I'm not as concerned about making compsci part of the high school curriculum as much as making real mathematics part of the curriculum. With a solid foundation in basic logic and mathematics, you open up the ability to pick up pretty much any technical book, and read it and understand it. You can go anywhere with that foundation -- computer science, but also engineering, physics, etc.
The failure of this plan is relying on corporations like Microsoft to do it. Corporations do things that are best for their shareholder's interests. The government and government run schools, on the other hand are for the public interest. While there may be some overlap between the two interests, most often they are not and relying on corporations to come up with curriculum and teaching methods is bound to fail.
For Microsoft and the other corporations involved in this, the students and schools are customers. It is reasonable to expect that Microsoft will push their OS, their programming platform, their web platform, etc., even if it isn't in the best interest of the country as a whole. Why? Because first and foremost, their goal is to maximize their shareholder's equity.
A more neutral approach to this would be to rely on colleges and universities to come up with a recommendation. Obviously, it would need to be coordinated, otherwise, you will have as many opinions as their are participants.
And finally, the question must be asked -- "In the future, will what is being being taught to code today be relevant?" If this were put in place in the 1980s, everybody would have been taught COBOL and FORTRAN. How useful would those skills have been by 2000? Teaching to code is more than learning a language, it is learning to think logically. It is learning to plan. It is learning to question. All of those skills can be taught without programming and are more useful in society than only being taught for programming.
If you want future adults who can code what they are told to code, teach programming. If you want future adults who can think for themselves, teach philosophy -- that way, there will be somebody to tell the coders what to code. There is a reason that parents who are in the 1% send their kids to elite schools that teach philosophy and other humanities along with core subjects. They are raising their kids to be leaders in the future. Sure, they also teach computer programming, for those who are interested, but not for those who are not. After all, in the future, if we all have to program our devices to get them to do what we want, then that is a step backward. That's fine for enthusiasts, but for most of society, it will become a skill as useful as in the past requiring everyone to take Home Ec or Shop class.
Now, what about those campaign promises he made and has yet to deliver on?
To include "Computer Science" in a basic study program it is a good idea. Although we can't confuse that CS with coding, because they are different things.
CS is the WHY and coding is the HOW.
To let the people just to work the HOW won't carry anybody to higher levels of understanding and just will produce people repeating things. The important part is the WHY that will give sense to the HOW and will permit the people to understand and to find better ways to do that HOW or to make different HOWs to resolve problems, that it is the way the humanity advances.
Shut your mouth white faggot. Don't even try this bullshit like we're all equal now. You like to talk like that to keep a dumb nergo from getting up in your face but I'm not one of those dumb ass appeasers. We have control now and we're not letting go. You white faggots will be a thing of the past soon. We don't have to please you and we won't be living in harmony with you like some weak servant.
Fuck you and your bullshit tricks.
Most people live quite well without calculus.
In fact, people live so well without calculus that they pay a dental hygienist to scrape it off their teeth twice a year.
Differential calculus: Rate of tartar growth over time
Integral calculus: Area between gumline and tartar line
But seriously:
CS will work the same way. Some people will have talent and some won't. Those who don't will stop taking CS after "Introduction to CS"
But once you fill the entire high school schedule with "Introduction to" every field of study, you end up with a populace whose knowledge is a mile wide and an inch deep. They may prove unable to start working to save up for college without metaignorance plaguing their work.
Hows about we teach them how to THINK first??
hey i have a good idea lets teach kids the rock basics of CS using THE CLASSROOM ITSELF as
The Computer.
and as far as Females In STEM go Rocking along with the Countess of LoveLace would be good for the munchkins.
of course i think that Grace Hopper would hang our dear Commander In Chief for going about this WRONG.
I am all for giving women equal opportunity to enter Computer Science but beyond that I see no advantage. Why are we forcing people into careers that they do not want to do
Perhaps it's to change the underlying culture that makes people in groups with a history of systemic disadvantage "not want to do" certain jobs. There could be a background level of small bias-motivated rudenesses that build up over time.
> So ... he's a great president 'cause he is black?
Obama's not black, he's a Milano.
First, make Education majors (especially Math Education majors) take Intro to Programming in University. Second, tell students they get a year off from math when going into middle school, and that they get to take Computer Science instead. Once implemented all students will be better in their math courses - now that that they've been able to apply abstract math concepts to build something - and even teachers will start knowing how computers work!
1. How to swim
2. How to perform CPR
3. How to shun political pandering
Just sayin'. I remember when our high school wanted every kid to take either typing, shop class, home economics or auto repair. That was only 30 years ago. I took band instead. At least that is still vaguely relevant here in the future. Sorta.
Amerikans probably can't. But we Germans know better. Work will set you free.
In the 5th grade (about 1985) we were taught to program. Starting with Logo and ended with Basic. Our teachers said in the future everyone will know how to program. And everyone in that class knew how too, boy, girl, dork, cool kid, etc...
I am now and adult software engineer and I've been programming since the 5th grade, when the future meant, everyone will know how to program.
Somewhere, someone gave up; grade schools didn't adopt this curriculum, mainstream OS's stopped bundling dev tools out of the box, and funding for fucking football programs increase as ever.
Now I've seen Everything
A more basic requirement would be economics, since everyone needs to manage their money. However, it isn't a government priority to help people avoid poverty.
Yeah, we see how well you're doing with Islam. Just another place where the west will lose out in the next few generations. It'll be black and it'll be Islamic. Whites, christians and faggots will be a thing of the past.
Right now, at the peak of the biggest tech bubble in history, programming seems like a pretty sweet gig.
Except we are one significant market-swoon away from hordes of unemployed programmers looking to peddle their non essential skills in a job market not looking for them.
Coding is a great skill to have. All the best coders I know got started on their own. If you need a class, you're probably not going to ever be particularly good.
------ The best brain training is now totally free : )
It takes year #8 for Obama to get to this?
He could have done this so much earlier - just get Richard Stallman to head the effort. Talk about GNU, the 4 Freedoms and everyone to open up their code so that everyone else could study it. That way, you'd have free software dominate, and everybody right down to the transients under the bridge sitting at a terminal in an emacs session programming away at LISP or any of the other languages. On the OS front, they could have started by teaching the GNU userland, and maybe complemented that w/ teaching either Minix, Linux or even HURD
You post the current schedule, then we can critique it. Otherwise we're saying "well take a little out of Geography" and you say "but we only get 20 minutes of English a month! Nobody will know how to spell".
We didn't all grow up with the same school system. I'm almost positive that your current schedule isn't optimal. One of the other guys responded that gym was an hour once a week and therefore useless; funny because we had it daily for an hour.
Another guy says "prealgebra" and I honestly don't even know what that means. Until my last year of high school math was called "math" and the delineations between algebra, geometry, etc. were not specifically taught.
Looking at this one (search term "typical elementary school schedule"), media is already in there for computer skills. When I was in school, the things called "English language arts" and "Literacy" would both be considered "English", and compared to my upbringing I think that school could actually afford to recast some English classes to other subjects still.
At first I was surprised how short the day was, but then I noticed there was no recess at all (!) which makes up the difference.
Yeah, we see how well you're doing with Islam. Just another place where the west will lose out in the next few generations. It'll be black and it'll be Islamic. Whites, christians and faggots will be a thing of the past.
Oh my, this is quite amusing to see. The rather sad beliefs of a fool(s) desperate to believe in anything other than reality. It really is a sad situation.
First, read up on how Islam treated Malcolm X... uh, they killed him.
Second, I worked with a large group of ex-pat Iranians, with a couple of Iraqis included. (Long story.)
Working late one night, I was there and was the only 'westerner' with all these well-educated Arab Muslims and the subject of Black Muslims came up. Apparently one of the Arab Muslims had run into an Afro-American on campus who had converted to Islam. The black guy thought his conversion made them 'instant brothers.'
As the guy recounted this, the Arabs were belly laughing out loud (no exaggeration needed) about this and talked openly how utterly stupid and profane black African Muslims are. The Arabs started talking fast and furious, so I couldn't get everything they said. But they said plenty that I could catch about how much blacks to them were nothing but unwashed dogs and how they fooled themselves into believing they were accepted by Islam. One even said they were nothing but useful fools to be used by Arab Muslims for there own ends. The Arabs, especially the Saudis, believe they are the Keepers of Islam.
I'm sorry, but putting ones faith in a "religion" that makes revenge and death a central part of it, isn't going to treat perceived "interlopers" well. Look at how they treat women. How do you think you'll be treated?
Do your own research man, find out for yourself. Got to an Arab mosque and try to hang out for awhile. Good luck and try not to die.
You only need to learn how to do one thing.
http://www.drdobbs.com/embedde...
The rest is repetition.
While it is good to expose children to coding, like maybe a day or two showing it to them to familiarize them with it and then giving those kids who enjoy it more advanced classes of it in high school and such. Forcing it onto them it a horribly idea and asking for failure.
Forcing them to learn to code is about like forcing them all to learn structural engineering, how to rebuild car engines from the ground up, or advanced surgery. Most won't use it outside of the class and also most don't have the mindset to fully grasp it and will not fully engage them.
All this would do is waste billions of taxpayer funding on another wasted initiative that does not create jobs, does not educate the children towards their likely job opportunities they will have when they graduate and drive down wages of those in the field which is already too low for the stress they have to deal with by many companies who will then also use it to pile even more crap onto their employees who are now seen as more replaceable.
The only advantage this would have in the long term would be to get many of those programmers realize they aren't an island unto themselves who can negotiate whatever they want and more likely to be accepting of a union. Too many of them are getting pissed on with all the crap they have on them and have fooled themselves into thinking it is a pleasant summer rain.
Really? He doesn't look Italian.
"In a couple generations there won't be any more whites and we'll be done with your shit."
When we're gone, you will then be dealing with the Asians. Good luck with that.
Yeah, you notice China does not have a Radical Islam problem? They simply kill them where they stand. Problem solved I guess.
You must know that the "tech titans" and silicon valley in general is slavishly liberal. Why we don't teach everybody to be an accountant and do their own taxes since *everybody* must be able to do that? Why we don't teach everybody to be a lawyer and write their own contracts? How about we teach everybody to build their own houses? Or hell, mow their own fucking grass? Nooooo!! We cannot do that because, we must remind everyone who is not a straight white christian male how "oppressed" they are and that its not fair that they have been "denied" the "right" to be coding computer wizards rolling in cash. This of course is complete bullshit. It's the continued oppression of people by the left and an effort by the "tech titans" to commoditize software skills further by creating a political thread in the social ethos that "anybody" can do it. Well, I guess *anybody* can be president too. Yup. If you don't happen to recall, guess who sits on the board at Apple -- Albert Gore, Jr. Yup -- scroll to the bottom -- http://www.apple.com/pr/bios/
Yo see, big Al figured he could control the world far more effectively from the center of media attention as a quiet shadow influence. Don't think for a minute that he isn't just as hard left as he ever was. Never have I seen a human display utter disgust for his own kind (straight white male). You have to hand it to the indians, chinese and mexicans -- they take care of their own.
I don't think everyone should learn to code. It's not like mechanical skill-- you can't modify or change running code, so the only thing that the skill is good for is building software and writing scripts and the latter don't even run on those mobile devices that everybody is saying are the future. Really the only people who should need to learn to code are hobbyists and professionals.
Just like all the other subjects they are required to teach.
Reading, writing, arithmetic, history, civics, science.
What's really troubling, is that this education announcement reflects a fundamental lack of understanding of education.
Education is about providing opportunities for folks to learn.
You can bring a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.
You can make the water taste as good as possible, but ultimately
what you have to do is try, try again given the resources you have.
There is a priority list of things to learn.
The ability to communicate and fit into society seem critical.
The ability for self study is pretty high.
Arithmetic seems a bit lower, but still important.
Science likewise, I'm sad to say. (Although watching the debates on Climate, Evolution, and Pi, makes me wonder.)
CS seems pretty low on this list.
If each student gets the same amount of resources,
The, sure for some students, Having CS as an option is good if they so wish.
For less inclined students, it is hard to understand how learning a bit of CS will help.
It does, however make a great sound bite and diversion from the problem.
What would be more useful would be a cultural shift to value education so that kids want to drink.
Sorting kids to those interested and those not, might help bring about this shift.
Continuing to ignore there is a limit to resources and pretend that there should be an equal outcome for all postpones this necessary shift.
This may be a case where kinder, gentler PC is preventing getting the job done. That job being the ability to compete in a less kind and gentle world.
In trying to make our kids have an easier life, we are really doing them a disservice.
PS, While we are on education policy, the issue of student loans needs to be discussed.
They have a terrible side effect. They pour indiscriminate cash in the the college system without any expectation of outcome.
This makes college unnecessarily expensive. It makes 'glamour' colleges which are more focused on attracting students than preparing them for life.
And, it sometimes makes for crippling debt burden for folks starting out in life.
(Actually, if you are near retirement, then you can decide to get a Phd and become a permanent student and retire off the system as well.)
Again, the really scary thing is that the folks inside the beltway seem to think it is a job well done.
In CS you should get a Raspberry Pi.
... when they start using version-control systems on legislation.
The ability to track who wrote every line of a big law would be a revelation to the public, which is why it will never happen.
To a Lisp hacker, XML is S-expressions in drag.
What subject would the President remove/reduce to accommodate a new subject area? Could we, perhaps, carve out an exception for students that can neither read nor do math at grade level?
Have we run out of challenges in the education system, now we need to invent new challenges? Adding courses of studies does nothing for the high school dropout problem, nor does it address the basic challenges far too many kids have already with basic English/reading and math... For far too many students, this will just be yet another class to fail, another reason to develop low self-esteem. I think it's a terrible sin that the vast majority of college-bound high school graduates fail to even comprehend the principles of compound interest (as relates to student, auto, home loans or credit cards).
For the long term, I'm hoping that China or Russia will take it upon themselves to colonize the Middle East. Just totally rule it, with an iron fist, and force the region to accept civilized values, making whatever tribes that need to disappear go away in the process.
Then in the 22nd century, the region may emerge as the new India, ready to romp technologically.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
How about teaching basic life skills first?
Things like personal finance, cooking skills, some of the old "industrial arts" that can be used around the house?
Why in hell's name should "everyone be able to code"?
These jobs are some of the first to be outsourced to cheap labor countries.
Obama is doing nothing but supplying "window dressing".
I don't get the C.S. thing. Why does everyone need to understand Computer Science (software)?
While we're at it, why not require everyone to be able to design simple electronic circuits. Using Obama's logic, it must be a "good thing" for everyone to know.
We don't currently teach architecture, aerospace engineering or accounting in elementary school. We teach a foundation, reading, writing, math. Expanding on each as education progresses. Then in high school specialization begins and in college it's expanded.
We should fix and expand the foundation. Nee math is silly. Cutting PE, art and other programs is counter productive. If you want to offer kids a better chance in a tech world improve math, logic, troubleshooting. Maybe basic programming in middle school. I took a BASIC class in 7th grade (~1993), not elementary school.
Programming in elementary school is just an educational fad. Parents think they want it and schools and politicians can go far by pandering to the public.
His Majesty, the King, hath ordained that all School-boys should be versed in the arcane Art of Algorism; and should hence be capable of figuring Sums, Differences, and Products of multiple Digits, without aid of a Person who specialises in this Art. Prithee, sirrah, how would such an Ordinance be satisfactorily implemented?
N4st0r, trixx0r h0bb1tz0rz! Th3y st0l3 0ur pr3c10uzz!
Im old. Not too old, but older.
Back when I was in grade school, we took computer classes, it was mandatory. We learned how disk drives worked (floppies!), how to do basic programming in, well, BASIC and LOGO. A year or two later we were introduced to Pascal.
Not everyone in my class turned into computer pros. Heck, I'm not even a programmer. But I'd like to think that having that basic grasp made me a lot more comfortable using computers all that time ago, and such things would be great to instill in kids today. Even if they're not all destined to be programmers, they'll have a basic concept of how things work.
Especially these days, computers are so much more advanced and appified, no one seems to have a basic clue how they work or what to expect. I'm constantly shocked at how inept many non-CS college grads are, and I have to think if we all learned just the basics at a young age, we'd all be better off for it.
Well, maybe not help desk employees...
you need to have a certain disposition to be a great coder. Not some circa 2000 "web developer". You have to be comfortable, day in day out, recognizing patterns and solving problems using the best possible approaches. I cannot stress enough how many completely incompetent "programmers" that thrive on coasting, pointing fingers, and social engineering their way through a career for which they have no aptitude.
Exactly this. A long time ago, in a country fair away I followed a State Technical Enginnering School in Italy (ITIS), was a school for analysts and programmers. There were courses of literature, history, math, as you could expect. But we have had steel workshop lessons, technicald drawing lesson, with pencil and paper, chemistry labs, biology, electronics workshop and so on. The basic idea is that a programmer shoud also know what sodium is and how a lathe works to be useful in an industrial complex, and lerarning to solder a DIL chip is useful. Is supposed that a programmer is als ono a chemist, because there's a technical engineering school for chemists and there the basics of programmig are taught.
Start with "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe" and finish the rest of the Chronicles of Narnia from there...
My Mom runs the computer lab at a Silicon Valley public elementary school, and has done so for over 30 years. She introduced CS to students on Apple IIe's with BASIC programming samples that generated music and then had the kids modify the code to write their own music. Nothing fancy, just a few notes looped but it allows kids to be creative and do more if they want to. A similar thing could be done with modern languages, just with different coding examples (Flappy Bird clones, etc...). Currently, the state of California only requires a focus on teaching kids typing, Microsoft Office, and basic web research skills. My Mom has always done more than was required though. Too bad she is retiring this year but I don't blame her, kids have gotten worse with each passing year. Last time I visited the school a kid pulled a knife on a teacher and tried to slash her throat, the Principal's response was to take the kid out for pizza so they could discuss how the kid was feeling. Simply disgusting and nothing like the good ol' days when my principal was a retired Army veteran that would pin kids against walls and drag their ass down to the office if they got out of line.
-==- Buy a Mac and leave me alone!
There was a time and place when Federal involvement in education was advisory and coordinating. Wish we could go back to those days. Oh well.
captcha: binaries
Can anyone explain to me, the difference between 'Computer Science', 'Computer Application training: IE basics of an OS, Word Processor, Spreadsheet', and just simply Programming?
It seems to me our culture confuses 'computer science' which focuses on a lot of theory behind computers and software, on the general IT Applications our kids are more likely to use every day, and just simply coding in a given language.
How about working to have more than half of high school graduates reading at grade level? http://m.nydailynews.com/news/...
I have a better idea. How about instead of prioritizing Computer Science, we prioritize Civics education. Once people realize that their state/county/city are a sh*thole because of the local elect of whom they pay no mind--most crucially during polling day--a bloody lot of the rest will fall into place rather quickly. So many of the grievances people have with the federal government, the federal government have no jurisdiction over.
Two of my imaginary friends reproduced once
I don't think he's talking about the actual science of computing, but rather the business and basic concepts of it. Most of this could be accomplished with just the slightest shift in approach to subjects already being taught. The basics of CompSci are at least as as important as knowing who fought whom in the Civil War, so include Babbage, Lovelace, Turing, and the like in history classes. Mathematics could include all the basic logic gates: AND, OR, XOR, NOT. PolySci and Social studies should include sections on how statistics are aggregated with software, and the stable marriage algorithm would be good subject matter. Teachers could even ditch the TI-84 and teach computational mathematics with numPy. Any business class should include an eCommerce and internet/email marketing component that at least touches on the basics of HTML/CSS and how to copy & paste PayPal button code.
Have you seen his birth certificate?
Even if the students end up hating it, they should have to learn something about computers besides just typing and how to use office apps. Ignorance of them and assuming that they'll always 'just work' has got to end. We're in the 21st century now. The only way the masses are going to wake up and start making changes for the greater good is through knowledge. This has happened before with other industries, now it's time it finally came to the computer industry.