The President Wants Every Student To Learn CS. How Would That Work? (npr.org)

theodp writes: The very first proposal President Obama put forth in his final State of the Union address Tuesday night for his remaining year in office was "helping students learn to write computer code." While the President wants every student to learn CS, NPR notes that getting a new, complex, technical subject onto the agendas of our public schools is a massive challenge, prompting it to ask, How Would That Work? That Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella attended the SOTU address as Michelle Obama's guest suggests the President is counting on the kindness of tech titans to help make things happen. Microsoft and Obama have worked together to try to get CS in the schools since at least 2006, when Microsoft announced a $1 million donation to NCWIT, which it indicated would facilitate "taking the discussion to a national stage" at a Washington, D.C. Innovation and Diversity Town Hall co-sponsored by the NSF and keynoted by then-Senator Barack Obama. "Most of all, what inspires me about this program [NCWIT] are the prospects of my two daughters," Obama said at the time (video). "I want them to go as far as their dreams may take them. And, unfortunately because of long historic discrimination in the areas of gender, we can't be assured of that."

Comments

How would that work?

[jafiwam]

It wouldn't.

Re:How would that work?

[donaldm]

It wouldn't.

Well put. Your two words said it all.

Re:How would that work?

[AmiMoJo]

When I was 3 years old my pre-school had a programmable toy car. You gave it a list of commands like go forward 1m, turn left, go forward 2m and it executed them. Many years later we got a computer, and the manual told me how to write software in BASIC.

Without those opportunities to be introduced to programming I might not have studied and eventually done it as a job. That's what introductory classes are for. De-mystify software and give children the basic concepts and skills to pursue it, and an opportunity to see if it interests them.

It works.

Re:How would that work?

[JaredOfEuropa]

It doesn't have to. Not in the sense that every kid ends up being a competent coder.

It is good that kids are exposed to coding and learn some of the rudiments. A few kids may be inspired to take up a career in IT, others may derive some benefit from when they take a job that involves computers, and for others still will simply be part of having a well rounded education. The same can be said for biology, poetry, economics or history, by the way.

Re:How would that work?

[serviscope_minor]

Glad you came here to say that.

There's this meme here that programming is super special in that only people who naturally gravitate to it with no outside assistance should ever consider it as a career. This is of course completely different from just about every other career ever.

It's also total rubbish.

I originally felt drawn to it, and self taught myself a lot. Of course the very reason I had access to those BBC computers is because of one of the first ever attempts to get kids to program at a large scale by providing usable computers to schools via the BBC. In later years I used my dad's laptop (every PC came with qbasic then) and he would often give me advice.

It's a nice fiction to think I did it all by myself but of course I didn't. I could only become drawn to it and make good on that because of the environment. Without the government assistance and without assistance and equipment from my dad, thing would have been different.

Then I went to uni and did engineering. Naturally programming was on the course but treated as well as might have been expected. I ended up helping my fellow students because I enjoyed doing that. Thing is some of them who had never programmed before at all picked it up really, really fast given a bit of assistance from me. I fondly remember some late night hacking sessions (one of them nicked some plastic pint glasses which we filled with coffee) doing the open ended bit of the project. Neither of the two I was hacking with had ever coded before.

Re:How would that work?

[umafuckit]

It works.

Yes "it works", but of course "it" isn't introducing children to code. "It" is giving children opportunities to experience many new things and develop interests. You were probably exposed to various other things at school that made little or no impression on you, yet for some of your classmates those same things would have proved transformative and set them on whatever path they are now on. It sounds like I had exactly the same opportunities you did: we had the toy car at school (Big Trak) and there was basic on my Dad's home computer and later on my Amiga. Of course, I did different things with those experiences.

Re:How would that work?

[PolygamousRanchKid]

Politicians just simply do not understand what programming is all about . . . they think that it is a simple technical skill like plumbing . . . plumbers can now rightfully attack me, for having not enough understanding of the subtleties of plumbing!

So, you can teach an average idiot how to write some JavaScript . . . how does he or she deal with deadlocks, lockouts and race conditions . . . ?

Whoops. Until the politicians understand the fine art of computer programming . . . they should shut their mouths, and stop trying to talking about something that they do not understand.

Re:How would that work?

[mikael]

You can split it up into several parts: task decomposition, actual coding, testing and refinement.

Here is what they are teaching in primary schools in the UK:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/education...

Re:How would that work?

[0100010001010011]

I ended up where I am because I learned to code HyperCard on my Mac. I spent hours making animations and other 'stupid' stuff. I never showed it to anyone, it was hacky at best but it set me on a course to being an engineer and using Python/Matlab daily.

Re:How would that work?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's one thing to give students an opportunity to learn something they are interested in. It's quite another thing to force everyone to study a subject that they are not interested in. I am all in favor of giving every child the opportunity to explore and learn anything and everything they care about.

As for programming, opportunities abound. The cheapest home computer is now around $5, and it comes complete with a professional grade programming system. Free courses on programming are ubiqutuous on the internet.

Anyone claiming not to have been presented the opportunity to get into "computer coding" because the school didn't offer any classes quite obviously doesn't belong into this profession. Because the last thing this profession needs is people who need to be "motiviated" by someone else.

Re:How would that work?

[currently_awake]

Computer programming is a labour intensive job that can be done from anywhere. It's a perfect example of a job that is easy to offshore to the third world. I get that the president has to show he's helping keep America on top, but this won't actually do that.

Re:How would that work?

[MightyYar]

We have a huge f'n country with thousands of school districts. Proclaiming "it wouldn't" without any evidence is absurd. To both the proponents and skeptics - just put it to the test. Do some randomized trials and see what kind of outcomes you get. I know, in education we like to philosophize instead of embracing any kind of scientific process, but really it is getting old.

Re:How would that work?

[Anonymous Coward]

There's this meme here that programming is super special in that only people who naturally gravitate to it with no outside assistance should ever consider it as a career. This is of course completely different from just about every other career ever.

It's also total rubbish.

Slow your roll. I think many nerds would not make that argument. As long as someone is passionate about some subject, be it programming or whatever, a person can make it work and be successful through hard work and determination--even if they don't have some kind if innate aptitude.

During my early college days (peak dot-com bubble), I mentored a small group of my high school underclassmen in programming. Most were into it because of nerdy tendencies, and two wanted to get into it because they had the idea that programming was a quick way to get into some internet startup and be billionaires and stuff. That's all well and fine, but unless you're willing to put in the hours behind a monitor growing your power level you're going to get nowhere. The outcome was predictable; the ones without a passion for the topic lagged so far behind the others that their presence became a burden on the others, because we just couldn't advance. Everyone became frustrated.

Pre-college school time should be in part a time for exposing youngsters to a ton of various ideas, finding what each individual is passionate about and guiding them down a path where they have a chance to be successful at a career somehow involving that passion, and in part getting them ready for the rigors of college or trade school. Not everyone is cut out to be a computer nerd. I would no more expect a kid who is passionate about animals being force fed computer science, than a kid who is passionate about shop class and working with their hands being force fed philosophy. Some exposure to the topic is warranted, and by all means make it fun and interesting as possible, but the idea that every kid is going to become a coder is total rubbish as well.

Re:How would that work?

[AchilleTalon]

Anecdotal stories maybe interesting, however, you do not base a national-wide policy or initiative on that. Nobody knows what would had happen to you if you hadn't play with this programmable toy car. In no way it means you haven't end up where you are.

I never ever touch a computer or a programmable toy before my first year at university. However, I got a strong math, physics and chemistry background.

Your personal experience doesn't prove anything.

Re:How would that work?

[JaredOfEuropa]

And then there's programming, where you're expected to create algorithms.

And yet, young kids from all manner of backgrounds manage to make the little turtle move along its prescribed path with a couple of Logo statements. That is programming. Crafting complex, well-formed programs requires a lot of training and experience, but you don't need all that to get started. That was true back when my high school received a roomful of C64s, one clueless math teacher took it upon himself to teach us, and the provided learning material sucked horribly. We can do much better today; a CS course can include some basic computer theory (computer components, what goes on in a CPU, etc), fun programming assignments, and some formal coding subjects like data structures, loops and functions, object orientation, basic algorithms like sorting, etc. None of this is above the level of (senior) high school students.

Sure, not all kids will like it, but they don't all like math, chemistry or Spanish. That doesn't and shouldn't stop us from teaching these subjects. Make the foundation course compulsory with advanced classes as electives, much like any other subject taught in our schools (in the Netherlands, anyway)

Re:How would that work?

[AmiMoJo]

Introducing children to code is giving them an opportunity to experience a new thing and develop interests. As well as gaining some basic computer literacy and understanding of why software behaves the way it does, it gives them a chance to see if that kind of logical thinking and building software is interesting. Maybe it will be, maybe it won't, but at the very least they should end up with a little knowledge and some problem solving skills.

I don't think anyone expects this to turn every child into a skilled programmer, any more than English classes will make everyone a skilled writer, or maths classes will bring everyone up to more than a basic level of competency needed for everyday life.

Re:How would that work?

[subanark]

I've seen a lot of people come into a CS degree who only do so because CS is a high paying low stress field to be in. Many of these people don't grasp the basic logic concepts to succeed. Some manage to wrangle their way though college, mostly though getting their peers to help with their assignments, and finding teachers who grade more on concepts than implementation.

These people are a primary reason that CS interviews start with basic programming questions over the phone. A BS degree in CS is only an indicator someone might be competent, not that they actually are. Would these people have done better if they learned CS at a younger age? Maybe.

The biggest thing I hope to see from CS classes in K-12 is the use of programming outside of CS fields where a tad bit of programming with a lot of domain knowledge can go a long way.

Re:How would that work?

[AmiMoJo]

I knew this guy, an electrical engineer, who wrote Excel macros. Many of them were quite complex and useful. I'm sure he couldn't even tell you what a race condition is, let alone fix one, but fortunately such things never came up because, well, it's an Excel macro written in Visual BASIC. Very useful for doing engineering calculations, converting memory dumps into screenshots, even writing front ends for command line apps to make production staff's lives easier and less error prone.

I'm an accomplished programmer, mainly using lower level stuff like assembler and C, but also high level stuff like C# and Java. I've done bits of Javascript here and there, for various web projects, mostly personal. Fixing things in MediaWiki, implementing an on-line shop with Google Checkout, some fancy little animated flourishes etc. Never once had to fix a deadlock, lockout or race condition. What I did was relatively simple, sure, but still very useful and productive.

Not everyone has to be a master in their field to be useful. Simply being able to do Excel macros, i.e. to use the tool you have (a computer) more fully to work more productively, is a skill worth having. Teach the basics and people can apply that skill practically, which is more than you can say for a lot of the shit you learn in school.

Re:How would that work?

[lgw]

It's one thing to give students an opportunity to learn something they are interested in. It's quite another thing to force everyone to study a subject that they are not interested in.

Everyone is forced to study history, civics, basic science, math, and so on. It seems find to add "writing code" to that list. Studying coding every year seems like a bit much, but multiple exposures over childhood seems appropriate.

Remember, all the mindless, repetitive jobs are going to be replaced by robots over the next 20-30 years. If schools are doing their fundamental job of teaching everyone enough skills that they can contribute to society in some needed way, then basic skills in programming and debugging, very simple stuff, is going to be needed more and more.

Reading and writing was once a niche job skill, needed by only a few specialists. Now most jobs require it. Coding will be the same way - only a few jobs requiring the skills of a professional software developer, just like there are only a few jobs as novelists or technical writers, but some basic understanding of simple automation? The equivalent of basic functional literacy? Yeah, most people will need that.

Re:How would that work?

[AmiMoJo]

I'm only using my experience as an illustration. The actual theory behind this approach is well established and tested. I'm merely a good example of the way it works, not statistically valid proof of its effectiveness.

Re:How would that work?

[melchoir55]

Why is it rubbish to say that people shouldn't be in a field unless they gravitate toward it naturally? I have worked with people who did CS "for the money" instead of out of interest. The quality of their work was light years behind those that like it. That's a very real phenomena that has very real effects in the business world. I guess you could say that those people should just be paid more, if it weren't for the fact that bad programmers are actually worse than have no programmer at all. They create negative productivity.

Re:How would that work?

[Hognoxious]

I don't really agree. Being able to write a little bit is useful.

Being able to code a little bit is more like being able to drive a little bit - you're likely to cause as many problems as you solve.

Re:How would that work?

[MightyYar]

What are you going to measure to see if this matters?

How do you measure educational success now? You don't. Common Core was a step in this direction, but people turn out not to actually want the goal of "pass a grueling set of standardized tests". Unless you can hammer down a concrete set of goals that schools are supposed to meet, you will never have anything approaching a scientific (or even "evidence-based") educational system.

Education as an academic discipline is a jump from one fad to another, all based on philosophical arguments with only occasional, unconvincing case studies as "evidence".

I have nothing against the "choose your own path" process that you see as beneficial. But I see nothing to support it, either. Not when you (or anyone, it seems) can't even tell me what the goal of primary education is.

Re:How would that work?

[MightyYar]

We are throwing billions down the well right this very minute, with almost consensus that our current system is lacking. We spend more than almost any other country on education, measured in both absolute terms and per capita, yet we are almost universally unhappy with our education system.

But go on, defend the status quo.

Re:How would that work?

[dgatwood]

Except that programming isn't inherently difficult. It is inherently tedious and rigorous. There's a difference. There's nothing hard about coming up with a series of instructions. Most human beings are capable of doing so.

Unfortunately, as I'm wont to say, the best thing about making it easier to write software is that more people will write software, and at the same time, the problem with making it easier to write software is that more people will write software. You see, there are a few characteristics that IMO are consistently present in good programmers, but are not necessarily present in the general population to a similar degree:

• Curiosity. Programmers must always wonder why something does what it does, because that leads to understanding how to do things in ways that will work.
• Self-starters. Programmers must be willing to figure things out without being taught. That's not to say that formal education isn't useful, but there won't always be books about whatever you're trying to do. You have to be willing to try things, see how they behave, adapt what you're doing based on what you learned, and keep doing this. Otherwise, you're eventually going to get stuck, and you won't get unstuck.
• Willingness to throw it away and start over. This is the hardest one. Sometimes, something doesn't work, and you have to go back to the drawing board. A good programmer sees this as a bump in the road, rather than as a personal failing.

These characteristics are almost always present in people who at least started learning programming on their own. Introducing everyone to programming is likely to just result in a lot of people who are capable of writing code, but not very well, because most of them will lack those characteristics. As a result, you'll get programmers who:

• require a ridiculously detailed spec, and implement something to the spec even if the result is nonfunctional.
• constantly ask for help implementing the simplest things because they're afraid to make a mistake.
• won't look for ways to improve it beyond the spec, because they aren't driven by the same level of curiosity.
• back themselves into a corner, and keep trying to fix it by tweaking corner cases instead of recognizing that the whole design is wrong.
• run into a wall and never get past it, because there's no Stack Overflow post telling them how to do some particular task.

I'm sure you know some programmers like that already. The last thing we need is for them to be the majority.

There are, of course, many other important characteristics (the traditional list including hubris, laziness, and I forget what else... and am too lazy to look it up at the moment), but the ones on the list above are, IMO, more important than any of those. Either way, I'm getting tired of this post, so....

Re:How would that work?

[dgatwood]

When I was in high school they offered C, then it was visual basic, then java, now javascript, what will it be by the time your science based testing works?

You're lucky. When I was in high school, they mandated "computer literacy", where they taught us how to use MS Word, do basic stuff in a DOS-based spreadsheet, and taught us how to touch type. I still remember the coach telling the class "you'll never get up to 20 words per minute with two fingers". Just for fun, I decided to see what I could do with two fingers; it involved basically memorizing the content to be typed, but it was well over 60. I wrote a movie script during the spare time I had while everybody else was doing their assignments. I also had fun modifying a bunch of GW BASIC games to behave in unusual ways.

I'd be happy if high school just required everyone to take a formal logic class, covering everything from boolean logic to logical fallacies. That's in many ways a precursor to programming skills, and it would be a heck of a lot more useful in most people's lives than experience at writing trivial bits of code (particularly in the soon-to-be-dead programming language of the month) would be.

Unfortunately, no politician would vote for this, because they would know that it would eventually cost their party its electability (regardless of which party). But I digress.

Re:How would that work?

[Anonymous Coward]

IMHO programming requires a cognitive ability that is neither required of most people in their daily lives, nor present in the majority of the population. Allow me to quote another comment of mine:

From a cognitive perspective, computer science is the most advanced skill that students can learn in school: They start with learning by heart ("data"). The first step up the cognitive ladder is learning how to combine information in prescribed ways ("apply given algorithm to given data"). For the next step, they have to extract the data from a textual description and apply a given algorithm. For quite a lot of students, this is as high as they can reach. A significant step up still is extracting data from a free form problem description and, without explicit hints, deciding which of many algorithms to apply. Some college students struggle with this level of cognitive development all the way through college. And then there's programming, where you're expected to create algorithms.

I think you're onto that too, but social convention (specifically the fear of being seen as arrogant) makes you reject the conclusion. The reason why some programmers require ridiculously detailed specs, constantly ask for help implementing the simplest things, won't look for ways to improve it beyond the spec, don't recognize when the whole design is wrong and try to fix it by tweaking minor aspects, and run into a wall and never get past it without Stack Overflow, has nothing to do with a lack of motivation, fear of failing or other "soft" aspects. It's much simpler: They lack the cognitive ability that they would need to create algorithms instead of just applying algorithms. You mentioned hubris as an important characteristic, but I think the argument why programming demands significantly above average cognitive ability is rational and not just chest thumping.

Re:How would that work?

[subanark]

Having some experience on how Microsoft does stuff, I think they are going start the kids off with Lego mindstorm, which is something much more interactive than c# or what not.

In any case once you learn one functional language the other functional languages are easy to pick up. It's the logic that needs to be learned, not the syntax.

Re: How would that work?

[sonamchauhan]

Are you calling most people dopes who don't comprehend their personal knowledge has limits? Or saying people need to be licensed to program? Surely, unlicensed internet access by programmers won't cause fatalities on the information superhighway? :)

The reality is our occupation is closer to plumbing than driving -- people know their limits and dabbling wont kill people (but may flood your and your neighbour's apartment).

The main barrier to entry in programming is the Babel effect and primitive tools. Plumbing has its standard pipes and wrenches and drainpipe cameras. We have tens of thousands of isolated languages and frameworks and debuggers. Practically all based on monocolour text. No Babelfish/Google translate to automatically map concepts across.

Re: How would that work?

[guruevi]

But how about the rest of the class? They're all software engineers? No, people remember what they're most interested in. I remember very clearly the programming, electronic and logic puzzles at school but I also vaguely remember doing much more math, biology (field trips etc) and other sciences, I just was naturally drawn to computers and eventually sought them out myself even though my mother was against it and my schools never bothered beyond an introduction to Logo and later Pascal.

Re: How would that work?

[guruevi]

But then EVERYTHING gets done in Excel macros and people that don't understand any better think it's the only way to do things.

I've seen some of these horrid pieces of work, an entire CRM cobbled together in Excel; these people don't think about the fine details of eg birthday collisions on "random" ids and only when you import them in a real database do you start to understand the problems people have been working around and accepted as the status quo.

Re:How would that work?

[lgw]

Being able to code a little bit is more like being able to drive a little bit - you're likely to cause as many problems as you solve.

You're thinking in terms of writing software that will be maintained, or that other people will use. I'm thinking in terms of "every job requires an understanding of automation - how it can go wrong and what to do about it", as well as automating stuff in your own job just for you.

Without a basic understanding of coding to form a mental model of automated tasks, it all seems like magic. I'm expecting a lot of jobs riding herd on automated jobs, dealing with the exceptions. Maybe not fixing problems yourself, but giving a coherent description of the details of the problem, something you can't do with magic, and improvising work-arounds.

Re:How would that work?

[dgatwood]

I'm right on the border on all of those INTJ things, in every category. You don't have to be a major introvert, nor any other personality type. That's pure myth. The IQ above 110, I could believe, but that's approximately 25% of the population, which means there are about 75 million people in the U.S. with the mental aptitude to me programmers, and only 1.1 million jobs in the field.

In reality, I think that's an overestimate, though, because programming involves both math and... well, for lack of a better word, art. It requires both a strong left and right brain. This puts you down in the low single-digit percentages of the population, which is still an order of magnitude more than actually go into the field, but is more believable.

On the other hand, a lot of the way our brains are wired comes from our life experiences. The more you use various parts of your brain, the better they become at doing various tasks. Compare how easy it is for kids to become bilingual with the relative difficulty for people who get to high school without ever taking a second language, for example. It seems equally likely that a lot more people would have the mental faculties to write software if they began doing things that exercise both sides of their brain at a young age.

Note, however, that this need not be programming. Logic is helpful, sure, but music and art also have a big impact on programming ability, and music in particular. It isn't a coincidence that there's a strong correlation between computer programmers and musicians. It makes heavy use of both sides of your brain in ways that basically train your brain to analyze and extend complex structures. It has concepts like loops, rules for how music is constructed, patterns for what sounds good and bad, etc. In effect it is the world's simplest programming language, and it is one that you can begin learning at a young age. In my opinion, if you want to increase the number of future computer programmers in the absolute cheapest, simplest way, bring back music in K-12 schools. Start kids singing and playing the piano when they're still young.

Re:How would that work?

[serviscope_minor]

Why is it rubbish to say that people shouldn't be in a field unless they gravitate toward it naturally?

Because of exposure. I already gave examples of people who didn't find programming by themselves but turned out to be very talented at it. You ignored those examples.

Re:How would that work?

[serviscope_minor]

The biggest thing I hope to see from CS classes in K-12 is the use of programming outside of CS fields where a tad bit of programming with a lot of domain knowledge can go a long way.

Indeed, there are colossal gains to be had there. Some people sort of find it via spreadsheets. Bit I've seen people slog through trivially automated processes by hand for hours and hours on end because they don't realise there are other options.

People like that don't need to become computer scientists, but enough knowledge to know (a) their task can be automated and (b) how to start would do wonders for productivity.

Re:How would that work?

[Hognoxious]

I don't agree that you need to learn coding to learn systematic thinking. Decent car mechanics tend to have it.

Coding might be one way to pick it up. But if all they're doing is pissing around with framework-du-jour or making pooeypoint presentations I doubt it.

Re: How would that work?

[Hognoxious]

I have a spreadsheet I created for working out the cheapest online bookstore for specific books. It incorporates shipping costs - fixed and variable and currency exchange rates.

It works for me, but it's a pile of shite.

I can see how if I'd developed it at work to find the best supplier of buggerbum beans it might have grown into an entire procurment package. A shite one.

You don't build an aircraft carrier by extending a four-drum raft.

Re:How would that work?

[lgw]

Coding in a way to learn systematic thinking that you can learn young. Some people pick it up in high school from geometry or the rare demanding English class, but there's nothing really to teach it earlier today, and there should be.

Yes, it all depends on whether the students code something non-trivial, and I'm not sure our school system can every move beyond "memorize these facts, then drill", but it's worth a shot. Our school system was optimized to produce good factory workers, with education as a secondary objective and critical thinking just a distraction form the goal. We fix that, or we fall into economic obscurity.

Re:How would that work?

[hucker75]

And once you get to high school (12 years old) you should choose what things to study. We already have compulsory stupid things like religious education, please don't add another one.

Re:How would that work?

[beastofburdon]

The thing is that now almost every child has access to a computer with internet. If you have that then you have all the tools you need to teach yourself how to code. If you would rather be taught how to code then almost all high schools have programming classes.
This shit has nothing to do with wit giving children more opportunities. It is large corporations that think they can drastically lower the wages for software developers if they can just force training into the school system. They are wrong, but when has that ever stopped a large corporation?

Some dreams don't count

[MikeRT]

"I want them to go as far as their dreams may take them. And, unfortunately because of long historic discrimination in the areas of gender, we can't be assured of that."

A lot of women also want to be able to be stay at home moms, supported by a husband on a single income. The effect of driving down wages in our field means it's that much harder for any woman married to a man in our field to have that option. What our economic policies mean for a lot of women in general is that should they want to give up their career, they can't, because cheap labor is more important than economic flexibility.

Re:Some dreams don't count

[mwvdlee]

The percentage of women in IT (about 26%) is higher than the percentage of women in politics (about 22%).
Remember that next time a politician claims "a long historic discrimination in the areas of gender".

Re:Some dreams don't count

[AthanasiusKircher]

"I want them to go as far as their dreams may take them. And, unfortunately because of long historic discrimination in the areas of gender, we can't be assured of that."

Can we all just mod the Summary as "-1 Troll"?

I'm absolutely serious. There are clearly lots of stories posted on Slashdot which seem designed to create flamewars, but this one is incredibly blatant. Rather than just discussing a current speech of Obama and his ideas, we get a final sentence which appears to be referencing gender discrimination in IT, which the OP obviously knows will rile people up here.

Except there are number of problematic things there:

(1) The link is to a speech Obama gave in 2006. Why is that news?

(2) The speech is given before a diversity advocacy organization (NCWIT = National Center for Women & Information Technology), and if you listen to the context of the speech, that's clearly why he brings it up. Any politician invited to give a speech at an event like that obviously is going to try to find a way to complement the work the organization is doing.

(3) If you listen to the context of the quotation, it's actually not about IT. He mentions a number of different disciplines and a number of career paths, mostly not in IT. So, TFS is deliberately distorting the quotation to rile up Slashdot.

(4) Note the placement of the quotation -- it's the last thing in TFS, guaranteed to be the last thing people read before posting. So, you read the beginning and all the crappy flamewars about Obama and how he doesn't understand IT or whatever start coming up, but then you get to the last sentence and you're clearly supposed to be outraged and ready to start flaming.

JUST STOP IT. Can we skip all the stupid debates over gender and women in IT today? I'm not a big fan of Obama, but if you do want to discuss Obama's recent speech or possible initiatives, can we skip a bunch of crap concerning a speech from a decade ago with a quotation taken out of context??

Re:Some dreams don't count

[Applehu Akbar]

The story is current because Obama just mentioned teaching code in the SOTU.

Re:Some dreams don't count

[AthanasiusKircher]

The story is current because Obama just mentioned teaching code in the SOTU.

Duh. Read my post again. I didn't say the story (in the beginning of TFS) wasn't current; in fact, I said it was and encouraged discussion of current initiatives/proposals if people want to talk about that.

I said TFS was designed to be a Troll, and you know this because it concludes with a speech from a decade ago and a quotation from it designed to rile people up here. That latter element is NOT current.

Re:Some dreams don't count

[Applehu Akbar]

Having my very own trolls is something I consider a supreme accolade. Now for extra-credit fun, can we work the subject of space in here somehow?

Re:Some dreams don't count

[PopeRatzo]

Having my very own trolls is something I consider a supreme accolade. Now for extra-credit fun, can we work the subject of space in here somehow?

Yes. If you went into space, you'd be a neo-reactionary dummy. Except in space.

Re:Some dreams don't count

[AmiMoJo]

That's not really a CS/IT problem though, it's just the way modern America (and the UK) is. The cost of living went up, wages didn't keep pace in any field, except C level exec.

Re:Some dreams don't count

[Applehu Akbar]

My posting history generally looks like this:

Me: "The sky is blue this morning."
Troll A: "You stupid ignorant reactionary bastard whose mother dresses you funny, don't you know the air is full of corporate pollution?"
Troll B: "There you go, looking up again! At a sky full of planets and stars that man will never reach because going beyond low Earth orbit requires an infinite amount of energy and deadly radiation will boil your vital body fluids if you even look at them!"

Re:Some dreams don't count

[tepples]

Remember [gender inequality in politics] next time a politician claims "a long historic discrimination in the areas of gender".

Even if the next paragraph is to the effect "That's something that should be fixed in politics as well; let's expand political science classes"?

Re:Some dreams don't count

[fahrbot-bot]

The story is current because Obama just mentioned teaching code in the SOTU.

And it's News because it's something the Republicans will say "no" to (because "Obama") and that Congress in general (R+D) won't do anything about - oh wait... :-)

[ Knee-jerkers, notice the smiley. ]

Re:Some dreams don't count

[fahrbot-bot]

Ya, but coding in space, no one can hear your compile.

Re:Some dreams don't count

[mwvdlee]

Now your just making stuff up.

Re:Some dreams don't count

[ewibble]

Why should it be fixed? Is it broken? In politics I kind of see the point, since it may be good to represent that sector of society. But in Computer Science why? I am all for giving women equal opportunity to enter Computer Science but beyond that I see no advantage. Why are we forcing people into careers that they do not want to do, just to make some statistic match what we think it should be. Maybe just maybe men and women are different, and in general want to do different jobs. This is shown in societies that have are considered to be more equal still have the same gender imbalance. It seems to me that as long as it goes against men it must be at least equal, but if it goes against women nothing. I hear no outcry saying we must imprison more women, or be more lenient with men on crimes, or even provide more support to because men are over-represented it the crime statistics. But if men and women are truly the same shouldn't those figures be the same too?

Re:Some dreams don't count

[lgw]

You guy are the most entertaining thing on Slashdot on this slow weekend. Dibs on the popcorn concession!

Re:Some dreams don't count

[theodp]

Re/code, Feb. 14, 2015: "The president has encouraged his two daughters, Sasha and Malia, to learn to code, although they apparently haven't taken to it the way he'd like. "I think they got started a little bit late," the president conceded. "Part of what you want to do is introduce this with the ABCs and the colors," he said. Particular attention needs to be paid to helping girls and other underrepresented groups in STEM (science, technology, engineering and mathematics) fields, including African-Americans and Latinos, the president continued."

Re:Some dreams don't count

[nmb3000]

The president has encouraged his two daughters, Sasha and Malia, to learn to code, although they apparently haven't taken to it the way he'd like.

Shocking. It's sad this wasn't enough of a wake-up call for him to realize what a crap idea this whole thing is.

"Part of what you want to do is introduce this with the ABCs and the colors," he said.

This right here is the most distressing part of this entire discussion. Everyone needs to know how to read to succeed in life today; however, everyone does NOT need to know how to write computer code. That he's equating the two really makes me wonder just what kind of SJW brainwashing he's undergone.

"Why of course Mr President! We'd easily have 50% women in computer science fields (and 50% gay, lesbian, etc etc) if only all kids were forced to learn something that 90% of them don't care about and will never use!"

Provide opportunities in middle / high school for any kids interested in logic, computers, electronics, and other STEM fields. That's great. Don't try to shoehorn it down their throats in the name of some skewed form of social justice. The whole idea is sickening.

Particular attention needs to be paid to helping girls and other underrepresented groups

It's always nice when we throw equality out the window early on.

How to be good at CS

[ebonum]

If you call programming creating Wordpress sites, then fine, everyone can code.

Otherwise, programming is little more than an IQ test. That means only the top x% have any hope when they start to learn to code of ever being any good at it. I fully support using the Purple Book ( https://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/ ) for intro to CS. If you can finish it, you rock. You are welcome to keep going. Otherwise: Be happy. You failed fast. Your calling is elsewhere.

Re:How to be good at CS

[Opportunist]

But ... but ... but everyone is a winner!

Re:How to be good at CS

[fahrbot-bot]

If you call programming creating Wordpress sites, then fine, everyone can code.

You jest, but I've seen people list HTML under Programming Languages on resumes.

Re:How to be good at CS

[unixisc]

There should be participation medals for all the runners up, just like they now are in school sports

Political Pap

[BoRegardless]

It is the same as asking EVERY student to become proficient in Science, Technology, Engineering and Math. I don't know anyone who is proficient in all four.

Individuals are inclined to one or two things. Trying to force them into doing something they truly are not interested in has always been a failure.

Re:Political Pap

[DoofusOfDeath]

Political Pap

Hey, don't hit Obama with a pap smear!

Re:Political Pap

[gtall]

More to the point, promoting CS for everyone is just a way for the pols to claim they are somehow in tune with the current economy. They don't have clue, well, no one really does because the world's and U.S.'s economy is big...really, really big...so big that no one thing like CS education is going to move the dial.

Also, the pol's idea of CS education has been spoon fed to them by companies like MS whose idea of CS education is using their software. Come to think of it, a push like this will probably dumb down American education even more than it is already. Teach the sprogs math, science, literary ability, etc. Stop teaching them technologies; those technologies will be all different by the time the sprogs hit the workforce.

Re:Political Pap

[Applehu Akbar]

"It is the same as asking EVERY student to become proficient in Science, Technology, Engineering and Math. I don't know anyone who is proficient in all four."

But what we do need to teach, desperately, is respect and appreciation for why science and its applications are important to us. Don't teach code with the aim of making everybody a programmer, but teach what code can do. Those who have an interest in CS will be motivated to get educated further on the topic,while the rest of the students will have a better understanding of how programmed devices fir into their everyday lives.

Now do this with chemistry, physics and biology. Then perhaps we will have a populace that reacts to science and tech news with something other than gibbering hysteria.

Re:Political Pap

[mark-t]

More to the point, promoting CS for everyone is just a way for the pols to claim they are somehow in tune with the current economy

Which itself is laughable, since going by current trends, the percentage of jobs for computer programmers has been declining (albeit quite slowly), and is expected to keep doing so for at least the remainder of the decade.

It won't, and note microsoft is always involved

[drinkypoo]

History shows us that if Microsoft is involved, education will be harmed, and Microsoft will get money somehow, even if not getting paid directly. Do not ignore the lessons of history. Corporations don't change their stripes unless forced, and Microsoft was explicitly not punished in any way after the DoJ found they were Guilty of illegally abusing their monopoly position... and basically every possible kind of anticompetitive behavior.

Some people are never going to be good programmers. That's okay, because we don't need everyone to be a programmer. We don't actually need that many of them; we already have massive duplication of effort right now, and don't need more. We already have massive joblessness in the sector right now, and don't need more of that either.

It would be valuable to teach "everyone" more computer skills, since they are only becoming more common, and I personally believe that it would be valuable to teach them all a little programming. Don't try to make everyone into a programmer, computer scientist, whatever the goal is. But it is senseless for us to continually integrate computing further and further into our lives without coming to a greater understanding of it. A little programming knowledge will give people an appreciation of the complexity of the systems they're currently casually throwing their personal information into the void with.

Re:It won't, and note microsoft is always involved

[0100010001010011]

Don't try to make everyone into a programmer, computer scientist, whatever the goal is.

Because teaching kids Math is trying to force them to be mathematicians? Or teaching them biology is trying to make them a biologist?

The point is to expose kids to what is out there so that later on they can choose a career path.

Half of what CS and IT is now doesn't even require a college degree it should be an apprenticeship style learning program starting at 14-15.

Re:It won't, and note microsoft is always involved

[Opportunist]

Teach someone the differences between bubble sort, heap sort and quick sort without him having any clue about O-notation or algorithm run time behaviour.

I'd predict you end up with a lot of bubble sorter. Hey, it's the easiest to understand of the three. And Intel sure wants to sell his next CPU gen, so fuck efficiency!

Re:It won't, and note microsoft is always involved

[gtall]

No. Mathematics or biology is an enabling science. Knowing those can open up many different areas to you. Knowing theoretical CS allows you to be flexible, but it won't give you the necessary background to do much that is interesting in the economy.

If half of CS and IT doesn't require a college degree, then teaching it to little fellers and claiming it is somehow preparing them for the workplace is isn't a career path to anything except obsolescence.

Re:It won't, and note microsoft is always involved

[0100010001010011]

There is no reason a senior in highschool that started learning CS in middle school couldn't make that. You don't throw them straight into OSes or Compilers. You have to start with the basics.

I learned to code and go on to learn that in college because I had HyperCard. I didn't understand why #FFFFFF was the color it was on our Commodore 64s at school, but years later when I was shown how to convert binary to hex it all clicked.

And now when I'm watching CAN datamessages flying by in CANape/CANalyzer I can look at the data signal mask and know what is going on.

I have no clue why Slashdot thinks we're going to be teaching senior level college concepts to middle schoolers. We're going to be introducing them to the concepts. And just because someone has a cell phone doesn't mean they have access to a Python prompt.

Re:It won't, and note microsoft is always involved

[0100010001010011]

> Knowing theoretical CS allows you to be flexible, but it won't give you the necessary background to do much that is interesting in the economy.

Knowing how to program allows you to automate your job. Programming is the new 'keyboarding'. You're looking it like CS is the 'job'. The 'job' is something else that needs to be automated.

I'm a mechanical engineer that spends 80% of my time coding, why? I automate my job. I automate report generation. I automate mechanical tests. The job that I did when I started is now 100% automated. Now I spend my time working on other, harder problems.

This initiative isn't going to crank out thousands more CS graduates. It's going to turn out a Doctor... that knows Python. A mechanical engineer, that knows python. I'm using deep learning and visual recognition to classify test results. No more flipping through 10 graphs to determine what is going on, I can run through 10,000 and have the results on my de
Coding is not a jobsktop in the morning.

Coding is not a job to me, it's why I became an engineer instead of a CS student. Coding is a tool I use to get my job done.

Is it always the most optimized, fastest, most logically correct? No. But if I can do anything at my job 100x faster with a few lines of code, I'll do it in a few lines of code.

And that's not to say hard core theoretical CS is going away. I thank all of those theoretical CS students for giving me tools like deep learning and modern image recognition. That stuff didn't exist years ago when I started, but my job (and interests) weren't in doing that. I've been writing algorithms and software to go in heavy equipment.

> If half of CS and IT doesn't require a college degree, then teaching it to little fellers and claiming it is somehow preparing them for the workplace is isn't a career path to anything except obsolescence.

It is and they already are. Vocational schools of the 21st century aren't vocational schools of the 20th. A highschool near me has a Internet, Network and Security Technologies track. I'm friends with the principal and he said he can't graduate students fast enough. Most are hired straight out of high school. You don't need a college degree for the work they're doing. It's mostly hands on training.

Does that mean that that PhD CS students are just going to disappear? No, they're going to be working on the 22nd century trades. In 10 years you won't need a PhD in ME and EE just to debug an automated driving car. It'll be standard training at any dealership.

If you haven't spent the last 20 years of your career learning what the new grads in your field were doing then you haven't kept up with progress. Your job is now done people with high school displomas. "Skilled trades" aren't just plumbing and welding anymore. The only reason companies are replacing you with cheaper Indians instead of cheaper Americans is we didn't spend the last 20 preparing to backfill those positions.

It's happened in every industry since the beginning of time. Nurses do more now than Doctors did 200 years ago. Nurse Practitioners do more now than Doctors did 50 years ago. And at the bottom end of everything it's unskilled labor or automation. Engineering Technologists are doing what Engineers did 20 years ago. Engineers are doing now what Engineering Technologists will be doing in 20 years.

This is how progress happens, teaching kids how to do the 'hard' stuff and let them grow up with it as normal and go on to discover something else. Calculus used to be the stuff of PhD mathematicians too. I don't remember their outcry when we started teaching it as an AP highschool course.

Re:It won't, and note microsoft is always involved

[mark-t]

Of the three you mentioned, sure... but by far the easiest sorting algorithm to understand IMO is merge sort: Take a list, if it is only one entry long, you are done, otherwise split the list in half and sort each list separately, then finally merge the two lists together into a single one by comparing the leading entries of both list halves.

Re:It won't, and note microsoft is always involved

[Graymalkin]

Knowing how to program allows you to automate your job. Programming is the new 'keyboarding'. You're looking it like CS is the 'job'. The 'job' is something else that needs to be automated.

Every time this subject comes up I see this tired idea reiterated (always with an anecdote attached). The problem is that it is complete bullshit. It's bullshit because everyone ends up using different definitions of "programming" or "Computer science" to fit their preconceived ideas.

Say a high school gives kids a year of Python programming. Python is easy to learn and relatively forgiving. A few years later those kids get jobs. Oh man, they can automate their work with their Python skills! Except their job involves using Word, Excel, and some bespoke LOB applications.

It's technically possible for them to do some automation using Python but requires a significant amount of extra knowledge on top of knowing Python itself. Very few jobs have a bunch of easily digested ASCII data that is easily manipulated by the novice Python programmer.

If you want people to automate their jobs teach them VBA and introduce them to AutoHotKey. They'll be able to do far more automation with those than Python in a majority of jobs. Help them understand templates in Word and they can turn their piss poor grammar into something that at least looks consistent. Shit even just teaching them how to do better Google searches would help them more in the long run than a programming class.

The disconnect is that using a computer (the programs on it) is very different from programming one. The skills of programming do not necessarily correspond to basic computer usage. Nor does programming actually teach people formal logic or necessarily improve their skills at reasoning. These in fact are precursor skills to programming.

Re:It won't, and note microsoft is always involved

[0100010001010011]

Say a high school gives kids a year of Python programming.

Only a year? By time a student graduates high school they could have 5+ years,

Except their job involves using Word, Excel, and some bespoke LOB applications.

What's your point? I've replaced Word documents with Python + LaTeX. Excel can be automated, Engineers have had automated Excel for the last decade. Since there is little crossover between programmers and Engineers there are some 'golden' Excel spreadsheets that do a lot of very complex math for specific applications in VBA. Years ago I worked with a co-worker that didn't even know about Sort, they were manually sorting excel documents, because that's what they were told to do.

If you want people to automate their jobs teach them VBA and introduce them to AutoHotKey.

VBA is locked in and dying. AutoHotKey is mono-OS. Jupyter Notebooks are platform agnostic and can be centrally run. (Requiring no setup for the users part).

It's technically possible for them to do some automation using Python but requires a significant amount of extra knowledge on top of knowing Python itself

Yeah, that knowledge they pick up in college. I knew how to script and write simple TI-89 programs before college. I didn't have a use for them until I learned mechanical engineering. I went to college to pick up that "significant amount of extra knowledge". My wife is an MD and we joke that 80% of her job could be automated. I'm showing her Python so she can make her own EMR. (Since all EMRs have been seemingly been written by CS students that don't understand how Medicine works).

I think Slashdot seems to be most upset about the fact that most people that use programming don't need to know how the sausage is made. Some other, very smart people wrote the compilers I use. I don't need to have full understanding of how compilers work to do my job because I trust their output. However I do have a lot of specific

Re:It won't, and note microsoft is always involved

[ewibble]

Selection or insertion sort is much easier to understand, bubble is a bad non-obvious solution to the problem, bubble sort is used by people who like to show that the know what they are doing but really don't. Given a sorting problem people will usually find the smallest then next smallest and so on. If you give someone the task to write a sorting algorithm and they come up with bubble sort, you can be pretty sure they looked it up in a book.

I actually find merge sort easier to understand than bubbles sort, but I am strange, and love recursion.

Re:It won't, and note microsoft is always involved

[Graymalkin]

What's your point? I've replaced Word documents with Python + LaTeX. Excel can be automated, Engineers have had automated Excel for the last decade.

Bully on you for replacing Word with LaTeX, most people in most jobs are simply not going to be able to do that. They're going to need to stick Word documents in a CMS or on a file server for other people to use. Unless the whole organization moves over to LaTeX/Markdown/asciidoc or whatever easily-parsed-by-Python plain text you're out of luck. Your job is not representative of any significant fractions of jobs.

VBA is locked in and dying. AutoHotKey is mono-OS. Jupyter Notebooks are platform agnostic and can be centrally run. (Requiring no setup for the users part).

VBA is locked in...to the world's largest desktop computing platform. AutoHotKey (and many other applications of its kind) are "mono-OS"...running on the world's largest desktop computing platform. Jupyter notebooks are well and good providing the shit you're doing can live in a Jupyter notebook. For a vast majority of the world with a Word window open that is simply not the case.

If we want to shoehorn computer classes into already packed curricula we should focus on basic computing concepts rather than trying to teach everyone to write programs. Whether kids learn to use Office, Google docs, or Markdown having them learn the basics of using a computer is far more important to their future productivity than some Python scripts.

Yeah, that knowledge they pick up in college. I knew how to script and write simple TI-89 programs before college. I didn't have a use for them until I learned mechanical engineering. I went to college to pick up that "significant amount of extra knowledge".

So your argument is school kids should all be thrown into programming classes so they can "automate their jobs" but then they need a full college education to be able to understand enough to be able to automate their jobs?

I've encountered a terrifying number of people coming out of college CS programs with no abilities to actually sit down and write programs. You're expecting non-CS graduates to be able to program well enough to "automate their jobs"?

I'd much rather see schools spend money helping kids become numerate and literate. They'll be much better equipped for the future if they can communicate and understand numbers than if they took a few semesters of Python.

Re:It won't, and note microsoft is always involved

[0100010001010011]

most people in most jobs are simply not going to be able to do that

Maybe we should start teaching middle schoolers LaTeX. It's already integrated into Notebooks. It's actually not that hard to pick up, especially just learning to type an equation or two.

So your argument is school kids should all be thrown into programming classes so they can "automate their jobs" but then they need a full college education to be able to understand enough to be able to automate their jobs?

Yeah, that's how it work. It's like complaining about teaching kids multiplication when they clearly need to know college level stuff that uses multiplication to actually use it. You need to give kids the groundwork. How many CS students had the opportunity out of school to program? Slashdot is full of people that learned Basic or HyperCard when they were young even if they didn't know what they were eventually going to use it for.

You're expecting non-CS graduates to be able to program well enough to "automate their jobs"?

Mechanical engineer. I do it literally every day of my life.

CS = Computer Science?

[hubertf]

Do they tell us a lot about the sciences of Math, Physics, Law, Economy, Languages, Biology etc. at school?
I'd say not - we get some ideas from basic bootcamp, some common applications and more is served if you opt for higher education.
I guess the same goes for "CS" - for me, I'd be glad if I could assume everyone that I work with to have a _basic_ common understanding of this computer stuff, I don't need scientists :-)

This Will Never Happen

[StormReaver]

Enough people fail to grasp the concept of a variable that I can confidently predict that the "anyone can code" mentality will hit an unassailable obstacle and be abandoned. The only question is how long it will take for this particular neurosis to metastasise and die.

Re:This Will Never Happen

[bbelt16ag]

I would suspect it would be more like the kids who can do the calc trig, and algebra 2 stuff will get the coding classes everyone else will be SOL and get stupid classes..

Re:This Will Never Happen

[jader3rd]

Enough people fail to grasp the concept of a variable

I think the reason why people fail to grasp the concept of a variable is because they only use it in an ambiguous way in a class in school that they consider to be busy work. But if they learned some programming before they had to learn about variables in math, when it came time to use variables in math class the concept will be solidified in their minds. Being able to see the value of the variable change in a debugger really lets the concept sink in, before students event need to know that the idea of a variable is a math concept.

Re:This Will Never Happen

[jader3rd]

In math, the word "unknown" might be a better word than "variable". It's simply a number whose value you don't know.

In programming a variable is something that doesn't have a value, until it does have a value. In prealgebra math a variable is used in the same way: find the value of X. I admit the concepts are slightly different, but there's also a lot of overlap.

Re:This Will Never Happen

[ShakaUVM]

>Enough people fail to grasp the concept of a variable that I can confidently predict that the "anyone can code" mentality will hit an unassailable obstacle and be abandoned. The only question is how long it will take for this particular neurosis to metastasise and die.

Based on my personal experience teaching introductory CS to a great many students over the years, I would say the percentage who CAN learn is actually pretty high, probably around 80% to 90% of college freshmen or high school seniors who have passed algebra.

So yeah, not everyone. And it can be hard to grasp. But it's really no different than the number of students who seem to just never be able to grasp algebra or composing iambic pentameter or whatever.

Certainly an introduction to programming is going to be useful for more students in more walks of life, than pretty much any other high school class they take. You don't need to be a quote programmer in order to make use of programming in a job.

How ? Probably the same as with other classes

[aepervius]

1) have a goal which is doable e.g. basic CS

1) Make a curriculum offering very basic CS (In France when i was 11 it was some absic stuff like convert binary/hex, understand processor (basic level) RAM , how basic programs works (used logo and basic for this) and have a project (often this was a game to wake interest in all people)

2) Hire people and add 1 or 2 hours to curriculum. Personally i recommend to do it early as it was done in my "experimental" middle school : 11 or 12 year old. I credit it to my lifelong interest into computers.

Re:How ? Probably the same as with other classes

[tommeke100]

Indeed, but it would still need to be very basic. In Belgium the Science students (so, usually the 'smarter' students) had a CS class. I think the furthest we went were some different sorting algorithms ( insertion, bubble, quicksort).
Back in the days, everyone used to have a Commodore 64 and the like. Some claim that sparked interest as well in people, since you booted directly into BASIC, so you could program straight away. Yet all the other boys also had a Commodore 64, but that really didn't push them into CS. They could all do the 10 PRINT "PROFANITY" 20 GOTO 10, but that's as far as it went.

Re:How ? Probably the same as with other classes

[DoofusOfDeath]

The C64 was my second home computer as a kid (my first was a Timex Sinclair 1000).

Commodore's other great contribution was this TV commercial. which introduced me to Bach's Invention #13. All these years later I still think of Commodore when I head that piece. I've got an outstanding bounty offer to my son for $100 if he learns to play it competently. :)

I want everyone to play Counter Strike...

[MindPrison]

...well, that's how I read it the first time.

Re:I want everyone to play Counter Strike...

[colinrichardday]

Given US militarism, you might not be the only one.

Corrected summary

[110010001000]

I've corrected the summary: All the female child coders are going to take theodp's job! It is the same summary as every other one of theodp's submissions.

Re:Corrected summary

[Hognoxious]

Not true. At least 30% of them are where he totally misinterprets and exaggerates what a politician said in the bar.

It would work like every other subject

[Opportunist]

Some would be interested in it and learn to program. The rest will crib the homework from them. Come tests, teachers will game the system to produce the required outcome to still get government money.

Okay, but what will we drop from the curriculum?

[DoofusOfDeath]

Suppose we teach more CS. Given the finite number of hours/week kids will be studying, what will we drop from the curriculum to make room for CS?

Oh, wait, this came from a politician's speech. Real-world trade-offs don't exist.

No value-add for society

[geekmux]

Why is it that the President just doesn't "get it" when it comes to value-add with a proposal like this?

At best, this reminds me of the 90's when Must Consult Someone Experienced re-defined the "paper" MCSE's that were manufactured out of that era.

Let's do a quick test here. What would be more valuable to the average citizen to learn, some CS programming or learning the basics about our legal system to ensure you procure proper insurance and know the difference between a will and a living will?

Sadly, the threat of litigation is FAR higher for the average American citizen than facing a life-or-death situation where you can whip out your shitty CS skillz you learned in a semester or two.

Re:No value-add for society

[Your.Master]

Did you not already get some basics of the legal system in your school? If not, you should agitate for that. That's a terrible argument against CS in school.

I was born in 1984 and I got taught both CS and some legal basics in school (not in the US). The sky didn't fall. And of course some very basic CS has a value-add for society.

The tech industry is like 6% of the US workforce -- sure, not all people in the tech industry actually know how to code, but by the same token, not all people outside of tech code. The legal sector is more like 1%. Everybody consumes from both the legal sector (wills, etc.) and the tech sector (their laptop/tablet/phone, their Internet). Nobody is going to learn enough in primary and secondary school to defend themselves against livelihood-threatening litigation any more than they will learn to roll their own uncrackable encryption scheme (in both cases, the hope would be that they learn enough to know they should hire somebody else to solve that problem, unless they go on to make it their life's work).

Re:No value-add for society

[geekmux]

Did you not already get some basics of the legal system in your school? If not, you should agitate for that. That's a terrible argument against CS in school.

I was born in 1984 and I got taught both CS and some legal basics in school (not in the US). The sky didn't fall. And of course some very basic CS has a value-add for society.

The tech industry is like 6% of the US workforce -- sure, not all people in the tech industry actually know how to code, but by the same token, not all people outside of tech code. The legal sector is more like 1%. Everybody consumes from both the legal sector (wills, etc.) and the tech sector (their laptop/tablet/phone, their Internet). Nobody is going to learn enough in primary and secondary school to defend themselves against livelihood-threatening litigation any more than they will learn to roll their own uncrackable encryption scheme (in both cases, the hope would be that they learn enough to know they should hire somebody else to solve that problem, unless they go on to make it their life's work).

People can grow up, raise families, and become successful members of society, all without needing or even having to give one flying fuck about learning how to code, especially the piddly shit they intend to force-feed to the masses with shoving CS into a school curriculum. That means less than 1% of an impact on society a year or two later when you realize those shitty CS skills are likely worthless and outdated before kids even learn the definition of obsolescence in school.

Now, compare and contrast that with the overall percentage of society who will need to understand what renters insurance is because they're going to eventually need it. Or the legal liability of not carrying uninsured motorists coverage because most people have a need to drive a car. Of the importance of having a will and living will because everyone will face death. Or the weight of a prenuptial agreement (a growing critical requirement given our penchant for divorce) because legal agreements are binding even as your gender or sexual orientation become irrelevant.

This is not about people learning to become armchair attorneys. People need to understand why they need the basic protections listed above, not how to defend against them in a courtroom, because you won't even have a defense to mount if you don't know what tools are used to defend. A need to understand our legal landscape and the common sense tools necessary to protect yourself is FAR more valuable to our younger generation than being force-fed coding 101 for a semester or two. THAT is my point here.

Re:White racist bitch

[Opportunist]

So ... he's a great president 'cause he is black?

Re:Clueless...

[Hognoxious]

Having had the misfortune to write C**** in anger, I wish she'd become a nurse or a schoolteacher.

Umm...

[EmeraldBot]

suggests the President is counting on the kindness of tech titans to help make things happen.

Is the government seriously incapable of putting together a computer science curriculum???

And, unfortunately because of long historic discrimination in the areas of gender, we can't be assured of that.

He has the daughters of a president. They will be well into the upper 5% or 1%, will have connections any other person could only dream of, and are almost guaranteed an easy life into doing whatever it is they want to do. You are saying these ladies are worse off than a boy from a smalltown like Stillwater, Pennsylvania, who will earn maybe $50,000 per year as a construction worker? Seriously?

There is indeed something widely missing from American public schools, and that we should certainly be adding. It's called logic. To my knowledge, most American public schools don't even teach it at all, and even most higher level schools skip right over. THAT'S what all this effort should be directed at, and it pains me every single time I hear a story about computer science in school and not that.

Re:Okay, but what will we drop from the curriculum

[110010001000]

How about Gym/PE? It is a completely ridiculous to be "teaching" it at school. It doesn't provide enough exercise to make the kids healither. It is an hour, once a week. Useless. There is no tradeoff here, there are plenty of subjects that can be dropped.

Schools have regressed terribly

[BenJeremy]

When I went to school, in the mid-80s, we were taught BASIC and Pascal, which was a good springboard to languages like C. Today, we have the benefit of more mature, object-oriented languages like Java which are great for educational use, but instead, my son's high school teaches with App Inventor, which is like teaching shop class with LEGOs.

We also have the benefit of great, now classic, books like the Gang Of Four's Design Patterns. We should be teaching kids something useful out of high school, yet we no longer do.

I'm mentoring on my son's Robotics Team, and find myself having to teach them Java programming from the ground up. I suppose it is good for them, but I'm not a teacher, I'm an engineer. Still, we are managing, and they are learning. I'd prefer it if a professional instructor had prepared them better, though.

Shame on educators for having gone this route.

Re:Schools have regressed terribly

[serviscope_minor]

We also have the benefit of great, now classic, books like the Gang Of Four's Design Patterns. We should be teaching kids something useful out of high school, yet we no longer do.

No, a thousand times no! I think teaching computing in school is good and I think GoF is good, but they're a complete mismatch for each other. It only makes sense to learn about design patterns when you're working on stuff that's large enough that it makes sense, or so you can give well known names to things you're already doing.

Learning them too early leads to ALL THE PATTERNS NOW (i.e. 1995 era common style C++, 2000 era common style Java) at best or utter confusion at worst.

Re: Schools have regressed terribly

[jedidiah]

> No, you went to a rich people school and had no clue how bad schools were in the other side of town.

You're a moron. You've probably never stepped out the suburban bubble yourself. Admittedly, the serious "ghetto" schools are a problem but it's not what you think.

In those places, you have black administrators and black teachers keeping the young brothers down. They're not even competent enough to teach basic math and they will sabotage the work of any foolish do-gooder to change things.

They're already busy selling the "black urban poor" short.

"The man" doesn't even have to get involved.

Re:Schools have regressed terribly

[BenJeremy]

Design patterns are about using the right tools, in the right way, for the right job. Going back to my shop class example, sure... a student might intuit that a table saw is useful to cut wood, but eventually, they start using the table saw for everything... even cutting lots of curves to make an intricate design, not realizing, because nobody taught them, that a band saw, used properly can safely allow them to cut those complex shapes in a piece of plywood.

I had to intuit a lot of the design patterns I used to develop in C++ back in the early days, because I didn't have the benefit of that book, but then, I consider myself a pretty decent software engineer (I'm well-regarded by my peers and sought after for teams). Still, the information in that book alone represents a solid progression in learning good practices in software development.

Re: Schools have regressed terribly

[BenJeremy]

My school was a rural school who had less funding per student than ANY of the urban schools in our state (I've seen the budget numbers), yet in 1983, we had CP/M machines and wrote real, useful code.

I was delighted to see that my old school also fields a robotics team in the FIRST competition. I have no idea of the state of computer education there, but when I see them again, I most certainly will ask about it.

For my son's school, I will be pressing for something more likened to AP Computer Science, rather than a class better suited to elementary students. I understand the CS teacher has been pressing this issue lately, as well.

Do I feel every student should learn programming? No... but they shouldn't be insulted with a building-block Playskool-level programming education when they express an interest. We need to encourage well-thought out courses that challenge and prepare students for real world development and college-level education.

Re:Schools have regressed terribly

[phantomfive]

When I went to school, in the mid-80s, we were taught BASIC and Pascal, which was a good springboard to languages like C.

FYI, your school was atypical.

Re:White racist bitch

[Applehu Akbar]

"In a couple generations there won't be any more whites and we'll be done with your shit."

When we're gone, you will then be dealing with the Asians. Good luck with that.

Not just CS

[X10]

If every student should learn programming, than they should also learn astrophysics, and architecture, and rocket science, and medicine, and every other job there is. Or should they?

Some people have a talent for programming. Others for astrophysics, or architecture. Before making statements about CS and programming, people should acquire a basic knowledge about what CS is. Apparently, Mr Obama doesn't have that knowledge. That's a pity, because I know that at least one of his advisors does.

Re:Not just CS

[lgw]

Learning the basics of programming is like learning to read and write. It's not about jobs as a novelist or software developer, but about basic skills needed for any job in our automated future.

Re:Not just CS

[Khashishi]

If every student should learn programming, than they should also learn astrophysics, and architecture, and rocket science, and medicine, and every other job there is.

Wrong, because you need programming to do astrophysics, architecture, and rocket science(--not sure about medicine...certainly for research at least--), and not the other way around.

CS

[sys64764]

or minecraft?

Has education regressed?

[Karlt1]

When I graduated in 92, we had an optional computer programming course in AppleSoft Basic. I even took a course in 1988 in 8th grade. This was at a regular public school in a small middle class town in the south.

I think you guys are reading into this a bit much.

[quetwo]

The president is proposing that students be able to take at least take a single course in CS. They aren't mandating that it becomes everybody's major. I think a bit of exposure to CS will do the world a huge favor. Maybe my kids will grow up in a world where the laptop is not known as the "hard drive", and a monitor is not known as a "computer". Maybe if people understand the basic underpinnings of the Internet, privacy won't written off as something nerds care about. Maybe, just maybe, if people are comfortable with even using the computer, we will actually experience that thing people keep referring to as "the year of Linux!" Heck, maybe this initiative will turn out some people who understand that coping a file takes 10 seconds, but building a new application takes longer.

All the kids of the US won't become C++ programmers in one class, but at least they will get some exposure into what programming even means. With any luck, this will inspire some kids who didn't have any exposure into the subject to learn more, and become programmers, or computer scientists, or computer engineers.

Re:I think you guys are reading into this a bit mu

[JustBoo]

How about making sure kids can actually do, let's see, addition, subtraction and multiplication first. Wouldn't that be a good first step. And since the US 'education system' cannot even do that, this is just another 'hype and change' move.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Who Will Teach All This CS?

[JustBoo]

I've not seen this covered yet.

In the US, many teachers are not even competent enough to pass tests at the grade level they are teaching. (Yep, not kidding.)

So who are going to teach these kids CS? Are the teachers going to stand there with a Basic for Dummies book and (in a bored monotonous tone) "teach" by rote, a subject they don't understand to a bunch of bored kids who aren't even listening?

Huh, I just realized, there would be no better way to destroy a nations interest in programming than that. The Law of Unintended Consequences. And we have a live example. Look what has been done to mathematics in the US. And there you have it.

CS != Computer Programming

[Dr. Winston O'Boogie]

There seems to be a fundamental misconception in this entire dialog between "Computer Science" (as define by the ACM/academic folks and their curriculums) and learning the skills needed to be useful as a Software Engineer in industry. These are very different things. The proponents should be clear exactly what it is they think all kids should be learning: do we want to train them to do research in Computer Science, or do we want them to get a more vocational education for the vast number of non-academic jobs?

The same way every student learns biology?

[Rinikusu]

It doesn't have to be a deep understanding of CS, but instead a class that covers the core concepts: a basic language, a basic introduction to a data structure or two, and a couple algorithms: what's an algorithm? Kinda like how in Biology class, you get the basics of Biology, and if you like it, you go on to college and realize what you learned in High School was just barely scratching the surface.

I mean, I've made it a hobby to read some "programming for teens" type books and am amused at how when working through the exercises you get a good sense of accomplishment. And then you get to SICP or similar and realize that you've been walking around in baby shoes and now you finally get to something with real meat in it: here be dragons. Anyone can learn to code. Anyone. Can they code worth a damn? Can they code in a manner that is efficient? Can they code in a manner that is readable, maintainable, and well documented? Can they code in a manner that some kid in the Ukraine can't tease out an exploit and use it to steal every penny your grandma has in savings? Those are not so easy.

Re:The same way every student learns biology?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Anyone can learn to code. Anyone."

This idea died for me the very first day I spent as a teacher at a community college. I stayed after class with a guy for 3 hours trying to walk him through about 3 lines of Javascript code, and he just couldn't get. At some point he said as much, got up, and just walked away.

Sort of makes sense, think about it

[mlwmohawk]

Consider that hundreds of years ago, most common people could not read or write. It was not necessary for survival. They could speak a language and that was all that was necessary. Reading and writing became necessary. Now, most common people can read and write. That doesn't mean that they will be doing it professionally.

Maybe a better analogy is advanced maths. 99% of people need only to add, subtract, multiply, and divide. Most people live quite well without calculus. We teach advanced maths in our schools so that familiarization of the concepts will expose those with talent to see their potential. CS will work the same way. Some people will have talent and some won't. Those who don't will stop taking CS after "Introduction to CS"

How about the US starts with ... sex!

[DaveyJJ]

Instead of focus on CS, how about we start with something more fundamental ... a science-based and medically accurate, single term, comprehensive, across-the-nation, practical sex education course instead. That'd solve more social problems in the US than teaching a single term of CS. Lower rates of teen pregnancy, lower rates of STDs, healthier relationships, better understanding of the range of normal sexuality, etc. Despite the abstinence-only crap being taught in so many districts, the false info floating around about how one can get pregnant, and the fear-mongering, patriarchal religious nut sacks who equate teens who have had sex with used chewing gum and who think women should have no say in their sexuality, 97% of the population lose their virginity before they hit the age of 20. Maybe we should make sure people know about what the hell they are doing that before teaching CS?

Everyone should know some chemistry and psychology

[Theovon]

CS is a subject that can be taught as well any other subject. We don’t expect everyone to become an expert in biology, but they should be familiar with the basics. So we can apply this to CS.

Avoid mkt domination by "mother may I program?" HW

[tepples]

More to the point, promoting CS for everyone is just a way for the pols to claim they are somehow in tune with the current economy.

Either that or it's a means of ensuring a market for computing devices designed to run homemade software, as opposed to iDevices and game consoles where you have to seek the manufacturer's permission (which may be denied for any reason or no reason) in order to program them.

Chemistry too?

[tepples]

Is "reactionary" a bad word now? I thought we were supposed to be teaching chemistry alongside computer science, not suppressing it.

Re:Chemistry too?

[PopeRatzo]

Is "reactionary" a bad word now?

No, of course not. "Neo-reactionary", on the other hand... well, it's like the difference between conservative and neo-conservative.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/N...

Cultures and time zones

[tepples]

Computer programming is a labour intensive job that can be done from anywhere.

With a few provisos. First, the cultures need to match closely enough to minimize loss of information when communicating requirements. Second, the time zones need to match closely enough for clarifications and change requests to be communicated in a timely manner. Third, the field of use needs to be one where sending information out of country does not pose an unacceptable privacy risk.

Re:Cultures and time zones

[Hognoxious]

First, the cultures need to match closely enough to minimize loss of information when communicating requirements.

valid8 number is nummerical is not in state ment of needfuls increase in scope will cost xtras

Second, the time zones need to match closely enough for clarifications and change requests to be communicated in a timely manner.

Bof. If they won't work nights there's plenty of others.

Third, the field of use needs to be one where sending information out of country does not pose an unacceptable privacy risk.

Whose privacy? Whose risk?

I get what you're saying but those things added together and multiplied by the PHBs' quarterly bonus squared don't outweigh "cheap".

Re:Cultures and time zones

[tepples]

Bof. If they won't work nights there's plenty of others.

The practicality of finding said "plenty of others" depends on the tools available to match outsourcing clients with service providers.

Third, the field of use needs to be one where sending information out of country does not pose an unacceptable privacy risk.

Whose privacy? Whose risk?

End users A, B, and C buy products or services from company D, who in turn buys programming services from E. Mishandling of information belonging to D by E could compromise the privacy of the personally identifying information, health information, or other legally privileged information about A, B, and C that D holds on behalf of A, B, and C. Some privacy laws provide for greater penalties if D and E are in different countries. The risk is that A, B, and C would sue the living intercourse out of D in case of a breach, or for especially privileged (think military) information, in case of information leaving the country at all.

Re: Cultures and time zones

[guruevi]

I think parent was being sarcastic so *whoosh*

A good programmer does not do a lot of labor, it cannot be simply outsourced. Most of my time is spent thinking and trying things out and researching libraries.

The real skill in programming is how to get things done with a maximal amount of reuse and think about every piece abstractly so you can put it together and then optimize the design.

Putting thousands of line of code mindlessly in a file to replicate a (human and/or inefficient) process does not mean you have understood the requirements to go from the input state to the output state.

Re:Cultures and time zones

[Hognoxious]

Suing someone in India, LOL.

Re:Cultures and time zones

[tepples]

Let me further clarify where the national boundaries would lie: A, B, and C in a "rich" country would sue company D in the same "rich" country for having sent their private information to E in an India-class country, which misused it.

Crowdfunding

[tepples]

This is just as clueless as Nancy Pelosi telling everyone to go out and be Writers Living on Welfare. Wow.

Was this intended as a slam against Patreon and other means of Internet patronage?

Make sorting look like a game

[tepples]

Play a game of 52 card pickup. Then demonstrate bubble sort, selection sort, insertion sort, binary radix sort ("above or below 7?"), quicksort, merge sort (you take half and I'll take half), and American flag sort (stack all the 3's, stack all the 7's, etc.) physically.

Re:White racist bitch

[Opportunist]

Yes. He is a good president (compared to the ones before at the very least). But not because he's black. Because he's a good president.

If you think the color of the skin of someone matters, well, I guess then you're a racist.

Anyone can learn, sure

[mark-t]

Not everyone will be any good. Anyone can learn to draw, but not everyone will be any good. Anyone can learn to play an instrument, but again, not everyone will be any good. There is a teachable component to all of these, but at at least some natural aptitude is involved in performing any skill. Certainly no less important is how much time and energy a person wants to put into actually mastering that skill.

Re:Anyone can learn, sure

[dcollins]

Can every child with, say, Downs syndrome learn to play an instrument?

Re:Anyone can learn, sure

[mark-t]

Did you even read what I wrote?

They prioritize diversity candidates.

[sethstorm]

Given current policy, they would make sure that only "sufficiently diverse" people would benefit. They wouldn't want any white males to have any chance of succeeding over a diversity candidate.

If they really wanted more people in CS, they would kill offshoring and guest worker programs with fire, from orbit. More individuals would be motivated to complete a program with a higher chance of an actual career.

Selectivist places like MIT != CS arbiters.

[sethstorm]

Given their own issues with overly favoring diversity, I'm not sure that their publications are the best arbiter of CS.

That, and trying to push LISP doesn't do well.

Re:Selectivist places like MIT != CS arbiters.

[DivineKnight]

That's because LISP, or perhaps one of its derivatives (SCHEME), is the language of the devil.

teach logic instead

[kencurry]

Teach them a framework for learning when they are young, then they will have the tools to pursue whatever they want later.

Re:teach logic instead

[dcollins]

I agree with this comment 100%.

http://www.madmath.com/2012/07/teach-logic.html

The SICP isn't some holy book of CS.

[sethstorm]

Just because one was lucky (or Asian, given MIT's non-merit preference) enough to be admitted, doesn't mean it is some end-all-be-all to CS.

Re:Clueless...

[Hognoxious]

I am sorry you weren't smart enough to learn C****

I'm sorry you're not smart enough to know what a strawman argument is.

Are you smart enough to poke yourself in the eye?

Integrate it into a Math class

[Lord Bitman]

Universal CS and universal Math classes (beyond basic arithmetic) serve the same purpose: They aren't about learning specific skills / formulas, they are about learning *logic* (with "whether or not you understand when to apply these formulas" being a straightforward way to test if the lessons are working).

Functional programming is a logical "next step" after learning the basics of y = f(x) when learning basic algebra. There's really no need to go beyond pure functional programming, as anything else risks straying too far into the "practical", which is not why these should be taught.

You are not going to get disinterested students to care about routing protocols which are guaranteed to be out-of-date by the time they are taught.

Re:Okay, but what will we drop from the curriculum

[jader3rd]

what will we drop from the curriculum to make room for CS?

1. Prealgebra. I don't think that prealgebra teaches a single concept that you wouldn't pick up with an intro to programming
2. Geography. I loved my geography class, but let's be honest, it's kind of a pointless filler.

Learn CS, not be CS

[The Nipponese]

The goal is for every student to learn basic CS, not be an actual computer scientist. Should we stop teaching basic math because of the raw amount of people who end up in engineering and finance roles?

The thought processes taught in beginning CS can be applied to many daily activities. Even, dare I say... ART-RELATED fields.

Re:Learn CS, not be CS

[info6568]

In fact, the concept of the "algorithm" is mathematics.

And we make algorithms every day, when we prepare ourselves to go to the school or the office, when we decide our traveling route, the way we "use" a car or take a train or bus, etc.
In fact this is not about learning new things, but to understand what is the CS name the things we already do have, and through the CS methods, how can we improve our life.

Comp Sci requires good Math skills

[mx b]

That's what introductory classes are for. De-mystify software and give children the basic concepts and skills to pursue it, and an opportunity to see if it interests them.

Completely agree. Computer science is not out of reach of most students, but it has to be introduced in proper context.

I think what many people are missing in this "teach compsci!" movement is that a firm understanding of computer science requires a very solid basis in logic and abstract mathematics. Guess what we don't teach in high school? (as far as I know; it wasn't part of my school, and I never see it mentioned in anything I've read about common core, etc.): Basic propositional logic and symbolic logic. Number theory and discrete mathematics. Abstract algebra!! Abstract algebra, at least the basics of groups, is not difficult and out of reach -- we should totally be teaching high schoolers about groups, which awakens the ability to abstract and see patterns, which is fundamentally what programming (and really all of comp sci) is all about.

I'm not as concerned about making compsci part of the high school curriculum as much as making real mathematics part of the curriculum. With a solid foundation in basic logic and mathematics, you open up the ability to pick up pretty much any technical book, and read it and understand it. You can go anywhere with that foundation -- computer science, but also engineering, physics, etc.

Re:Comp Sci requires good Math skills

[dgatwood]

We had some basic logic in high school—inverse, converse, contrapositive, and all that stuff. I feel like it was part of precalculus, but I could be remembering wrong. Either way, it was definitely in there somewhere. It wasn't nearly as thoroughly covered as it was when I took a class in grad school about logic, of course, but it covered the basics.

Re:Comp Sci requires good Math skills

[notonthegrid]

Maybe instead of Common Core, we should be teaching Common Lisp?

Who does this benefit?

[Dcnjoe60]

The failure of this plan is relying on corporations like Microsoft to do it. Corporations do things that are best for their shareholder's interests. The government and government run schools, on the other hand are for the public interest. While there may be some overlap between the two interests, most often they are not and relying on corporations to come up with curriculum and teaching methods is bound to fail.

For Microsoft and the other corporations involved in this, the students and schools are customers. It is reasonable to expect that Microsoft will push their OS, their programming platform, their web platform, etc., even if it isn't in the best interest of the country as a whole. Why? Because first and foremost, their goal is to maximize their shareholder's equity.

A more neutral approach to this would be to rely on colleges and universities to come up with a recommendation. Obviously, it would need to be coordinated, otherwise, you will have as many opinions as their are participants.

And finally, the question must be asked -- "In the future, will what is being being taught to code today be relevant?" If this were put in place in the 1980s, everybody would have been taught COBOL and FORTRAN. How useful would those skills have been by 2000? Teaching to code is more than learning a language, it is learning to think logically. It is learning to plan. It is learning to question. All of those skills can be taught without programming and are more useful in society than only being taught for programming.

If you want future adults who can code what they are told to code, teach programming. If you want future adults who can think for themselves, teach philosophy -- that way, there will be somebody to tell the coders what to code. There is a reason that parents who are in the 1% send their kids to elite schools that teach philosophy and other humanities along with core subjects. They are raising their kids to be leaders in the future. Sure, they also teach computer programming, for those who are interested, but not for those who are not. After all, in the future, if we all have to program our devices to get them to do what we want, then that is a step backward. That's fine for enthusiasts, but for most of society, it will become a skill as useful as in the past requiring everyone to take Home Ec or Shop class.

Wow, amazing!

[ooloorie]

Obama is going to cure cancer and achieve everybody learning CS!

Now, what about those campaign promises he made and has yet to deliver on?

CS is different than coding

[info6568]

To include "Computer Science" in a basic study program it is a good idea. Although we can't confuse that CS with coding, because they are different things.

CS is the WHY and coding is the HOW.

To let the people just to work the HOW won't carry anybody to higher levels of understanding and just will produce people repeating things. The important part is the WHY that will give sense to the HOW and will permit the people to understand and to find better ways to do that HOW or to make different HOWs to resolve problems, that it is the way the humanity advances.

Mile wide, inch deep

[tepples]

Most people live quite well without calculus.

In fact, people live so well without calculus that they pay a dental hygienist to scrape it off their teeth twice a year.

Differential calculus: Rate of tartar growth over time
Integral calculus: Area between gumline and tartar line

But seriously:

CS will work the same way. Some people will have talent and some won't. Those who don't will stop taking CS after "Introduction to CS"

But once you fill the entire high school schedule with "Introduction to" every field of study, you end up with a populace whose knowledge is a mile wide and an inch deep. They may prove unable to start working to save up for college without metaignorance plaguing their work.

possible right question??

[laurencetux]

Hows about we teach them how to THINK first??

hey i have a good idea lets teach kids the rock basics of CS using THE CLASSROOM ITSELF as
The Computer.

and as far as Females In STEM go Rocking along with the Countess of LoveLace would be good for the munchkins.

of course i think that Grace Hopper would hang our dear Commander In Chief for going about this WRONG.

Small bias-motivated rudenesses

[tepples]

I am all for giving women equal opportunity to enter Computer Science but beyond that I see no advantage. Why are we forcing people into careers that they do not want to do

Perhaps it's to change the underlying culture that makes people in groups with a history of systemic disadvantage "not want to do" certain jobs. There could be a background level of small bias-motivated rudenesses that build up over time.

Re:Small bias-motivated rudenesses

[ewibble]

Perhaps it is, but there is bias everywhere, in teaching both for and against men, but as usual probably does not apply to white men:

Microaggression is a term coined by psychiatrist and Harvard University professor Chester M. Pierce in 1970 to describe insults and dismissals he said he had regularly witnessed non-black Americans inflict on African Americans.[1][2][3][4] In 1973, MIT economist Mary Rowe extended the term to include similar aggression directed at women; eventually, the term came to encompass the casual degradation of any socially marginalized group, such as the poor and the disabled

The thing is just because someone came up with a theory does not actually mean it applies or has a significant impact. I personally haven't seen any more aggression to women, in CS than men, possibly even a bit less. As for sexual objectification that will always happen, men find women attractive, women find men attractive, sometimes the feeling is not mutual, currently that attraction it is essential to the survival of our species. This will happen in every industry, not just IT, so why is the imbalance more pronounced than say doctors? My experiences are however irrelevant, they could be biased, or blind to the occurrences.

My stance is not that there is no barrier to entry for women, there may well be one, but we should first objectively investigate why there is a one, not to blindly try to make the statistics 50/50 just because we think there might be a significant barrier. We may well end up placing barriers to entry for men, who are skilled at and want to do the job, while paying women are not as skilled at and do not enjoy the work as much. Getting a lower quality level of staff as a result.

Here's how it would work

[jader3rd]

First, make Education majors (especially Math Education majors) take Intro to Programming in University. Second, tell students they get a year off from math when going into middle school, and that they get to take Computer Science instead. Once implemented all students will be better in their math courses - now that that they've been able to apply abstract math concepts to build something - and even teachers will start knowing how computers work!

Anyone can program.

[xMonkey]

In the 5th grade (about 1985) we were taught to program. Starting with Logo and ended with Basic. Our teachers said in the future everyone will know how to program. And everyone in that class knew how too, boy, girl, dork, cool kid, etc...

I am now and adult software engineer and I've been programming since the 5th grade, when the future meant, everyone will know how to program.

Somewhere, someone gave up; grade schools didn't adopt this curriculum, mainstream OS's stopped bundling dev tools out of the box, and funding for fucking football programs increase as ever.

And how long until programmers are unemployed?

[popo]

Right now, at the peak of the biggest tech bubble in history, programming seems like a pretty sweet gig.

Except we are one significant market-swoon away from hordes of unemployed programmers looking to peddle their non essential skills in a job market not looking for them.

Coding is a great skill to have. All the best coders I know got started on their own. If you need a class, you're probably not going to ever be particularly good.

Re:And how long until programmers are unemployed?

[0100010001010011]

If you need a class, you're probably not going to ever be particularly good.

You could say the same thing about keyboarding, math, science, etc. Not everyone is a self starter. Coding is a skill, not a job.

Re:Why dont they start with learning operating sys

[unixisc]

It takes year #8 for Obama to get to this?

He could have done this so much earlier - just get Richard Stallman to head the effort. Talk about GNU, the 4 Freedoms and everyone to open up their code so that everyone else could study it. That way, you'd have free software dominate, and everybody right down to the transients under the bridge sitting at a terminal in an emacs session programming away at LISP or any of the other languages. On the OS front, they could have started by teaching the GNU userland, and maybe complemented that w/ teaching either Minix, Linux or even HURD

Easy, just make IT as simple as possible,

[dsmatthews9379]

You only need to learn how to do one thing.

http://www.drdobbs.com/embedde...

The rest is repetition.

Re:White racist bitch

[russotto]

Obama's not black, he's a Milano.

Really? He doesn't look Italian.

In biology you get a duckling

[mdsolar]

In CS you should get a Raspberry Pi.

I will believe politicians understand programming

[alispguru]

... when they start using version-control systems on legislation.

The ability to track who wrote every line of a big law would be a revelation to the public, which is why it will never happen.

At the loss of...

[KenHansen]

What subject would the President remove/reduce to accommodate a new subject area? Could we, perhaps, carve out an exception for students that can neither read nor do math at grade level?

To what end?

[KenHansen]

Have we run out of challenges in the education system, now we need to invent new challenges? Adding courses of studies does nothing for the high school dropout problem, nor does it address the basic challenges far too many kids have already with basic English/reading and math... For far too many students, this will just be yet another class to fail, another reason to develop low self-esteem. I think it's a terrible sin that the vast majority of college-bound high school graduates fail to even comprehend the principles of compound interest (as relates to student, auto, home loans or credit cards).

Re:White racist bitch

[Applehu Akbar]

For the long term, I'm hoping that China or Russia will take it upon themselves to colonize the Middle East. Just totally rule it, with an iron fist, and force the region to accept civilized values, making whatever tribes that need to disappear go away in the process.

Then in the 22nd century, the region may emerge as the new India, ready to romp technologically.

Re:Computers are bad for you.

[russotto]

And so a new copypasta is born. Bravo, AC, Bravo.

Meanwhile, 300 years ago...

[BitwizeGHC]

His Majesty, the King, hath ordained that all School-boys should be versed in the arcane Art of Algorism; and should hence be capable of figuring Sums, Differences, and Products of multiple Digits, without aid of a Person who specialises in this Art. Prithee, sirrah, how would such an Ordinance be satisfactorily implemented?

Not that difficult.

[um... Lucas]

Im old. Not too old, but older.

Back when I was in grade school, we took computer classes, it was mandatory. We learned how disk drives worked (floppies!), how to do basic programming in, well, BASIC and LOGO. A year or two later we were introduced to Pascal.

Not everyone in my class turned into computer pros. Heck, I'm not even a programmer. But I'd like to think that having that basic grasp made me a lot more comfortable using computers all that time ago, and such things would be great to instill in kids today. Even if they're not all destined to be programmers, they'll have a basic concept of how things work.

Especially these days, computers are so much more advanced and appified, no one seems to have a basic clue how they work or what to expect. I'm constantly shocked at how inept many non-CS college grads are, and I have to think if we all learned just the basics at a young age, we'd all be better off for it.

Well, maybe not help desk employees...

Re:Everyone should know some chemistry and psychol

[havana9]

Exactly this. A long time ago, in a country fair away I followed a State Technical Enginnering School in Italy (ITIS), was a school for analysts and programmers. There were courses of literature, history, math, as you could expect. But we have had steel workshop lessons, technicald drawing lesson, with pencil and paper, chemistry labs, biology, electronics workshop and so on. The basic idea is that a programmer shoud also know what sodium is and how a lathe works to be useful in an industrial complex, and lerarning to solder a DIL chip is useful. Is supposed that a programmer is als ono a chemist, because there's a technical engineering school for chemists and there the basics of programmig are taught.

Easy

[Time_Ngler]

Start with "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe" and finish the rest of the Chronicles of Narnia from there...

How my Mom did it in the 1980's

[Not-a-Neg]

My Mom runs the computer lab at a Silicon Valley public elementary school, and has done so for over 30 years. She introduced CS to students on Apple IIe's with BASIC programming samples that generated music and then had the kids modify the code to write their own music. Nothing fancy, just a few notes looped but it allows kids to be creative and do more if they want to. A similar thing could be done with modern languages, just with different coding examples (Flappy Bird clones, etc...). Currently, the state of California only requires a focus on teaching kids typing, Microsoft Office, and basic web research skills. My Mom has always done more than was required though. Too bad she is retiring this year but I don't blame her, kids have gotten worse with each passing year. Last time I visited the school a kid pulled a knife on a teacher and tried to slash her throat, the Principal's response was to take the kid out for pizza so they could discuss how the kid was feeling. Simply disgusting and nothing like the good ol' days when my principal was a retired Army veteran that would pin kids against walls and drag their ass down to the office if they got out of line.

Before forcing CS down student's throats...

[KenHansen]

How about working to have more than half of high school graduates reading at grade level? http://m.nydailynews.com/news/...

Civics

[Nethemas the Great]

I have a better idea. How about instead of prioritizing Computer Science, we prioritize Civics education. Once people realize that their state/county/city are a sh*thole because of the local elect of whom they pay no mind--most crucially during polling day--a bloody lot of the rest will fall into place rather quickly. So many of the grievances people have with the federal government, the federal government have no jurisdiction over.

What is CS anyway?

[bitterblackale]

I don't think he's talking about the actual science of computing, but rather the business and basic concepts of it. Most of this could be accomplished with just the slightest shift in approach to subjects already being taught. The basics of CompSci are at least as as important as knowing who fought whom in the Civil War, so include Babbage, Lovelace, Turing, and the like in history classes. Mathematics could include all the basic logic gates: AND, OR, XOR, NOT. PolySci and Social studies should include sections on how statistics are aggregated with software, and the stable marriage algorithm would be good subject matter. Teachers could even ditch the TI-84 and teach computational mathematics with numPy. Any business class should include an eCommerce and internet/email marketing component that at least touches on the basics of HTML/CSS and how to copy & paste PayPal button code.

Sounds good to me

[Zeekort]

Even if the students end up hating it, they should have to learn something about computers besides just typing and how to use office apps. Ignorance of them and assuming that they'll always 'just work' has got to end. We're in the 21st century now. The only way the masses are going to wake up and start making changes for the greater good is through knowledge. This has happened before with other industries, now it's time it finally came to the computer industry.