France Says AZERTY Keyboards Fail French Typists (arstechnica.com)
Ars Technica reports that the AZERTY keyboard layout used in France has a problem: it's not very good for writing French words, many of which require accents that can be accessed only awkwardly. An excerpt from the Ars story: In a statement released this week, the ministry lamented the fact that French keyboards, which use the AZERTY layout rather than the QWERTY layout familiar to English speakers, make it unnecessarily difficult to type common symbols and letters. While the 26 letters of the alphabet as well as common accented letters like é, à, è, and ù are generally represented similarly on an AZERTY keyboard, the ministry said that the @ symbol and the € symbol are inconveniently or inconsistently placed, as are commands to capitalize symbols like "ç".
The trouble of finding how to properly capitalize accented letters is a big issue in written French, especially for legal texts and government documents where every letter of the names of people and businesses are capitalized. Often, an accent is the only distinguishing factor between two similarly spelled words.
I 'av ner problem typing zee french on zis keyberd layoot!
Look, just take a standard keyboard from Germany, walk down the Champs-Ãlysées with it, and I'm sure the French will surrender to it in a very organized fashion.
AntiFA: An abbreviation for Anti First Amendment.
The same problem with inconsistently placed and difficult to reach symbols exists with the German QWERTZ keyboards also. I switched to one when I moved here from USA because the everyday need for ö, ä, ü and ß outweighed the difficulties, but it has taken me ages to get used to coding on it.
...QWERTY has been failing English typists for over a century!
Not sure what you are talking about. The point here is that French people can't properly type their own language on their keyboards. It's not about legislating the language, it's about being able to type it correctly. Not using a word because you can't type it easily is annoying. As is realizing that because you didn't type the accented version of a letter, your sentence changes meaning. In short, it's about giving people control so that they can actually write whatever they want.
~~~ Paf. Le chien.
Just buy the Canadian-French multilingual keyboard and map you keys accordingly and stop whining. The AZERTY keyboard is a real piece of shit, I don't know why it took so long to realize that to French people.
Achille Talon
Hop!
"Often, an accent is the only distinguishing factor between two similarly spelled words."
Sounds like a problem with the language, not the keyboard. WONTFIX
The choice probably had more to do with not having an English key layout rather than it actually being useful to French typists.
#DeleteChrome
Have you maybe thought that other languages use accents and extra letters because they need them to describe phonemes that are not used in English?
~~~ Paf. Le chien.
They *did* switch to a different layout: the AZERTY one. Why'd they do that if it doesn't work for them? And why are they only now complaining about it? It's not like typewriters are a new thing in France.
"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
The set of characters present on many European keyboards was defined by the ancient localized ASCII encodings, ISO 646. Yes, there were non-US versions of ASCII, that contained funny characters in the lower 7 bit range. This allowed for a very limited amount of regional characters (around 10), and as a result many useful characters were omitted, such as uppercase variants and precise diacritics. This is not only a problem for the French, and it isn't due to the AZERTY/QWERTY difference.
You looser ....
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
You realize of course that the English language has 40 phonems, but only 26 letters, and of those letters, you can make up for some of the missing sounds by using 2 letter combinations (for example 'th' and 'sh' ), but then there are the letters that have multiple sounds, as well as multiple letters having the same sound. The alphabet used for English is a F-ing mess! You'd think it was designed by bored monks in the middle ages that were either stoned, drunk, or both.
The reason why typewriters and computer keyboards are so US centric is that the English-speaking world happened to be at the top of its game when these products were created. First it was Great Britain and its territories and then the United States. The language of computer science is English. Computer scientists use less Latin than any other scientist that I'm aware of. All common programming languages are based upon the language of mathematics, which is Latin with symbols. English is close enough: All common programming languages read left-to-right, top to bottom. All common programming languages are alphabetic and use mainly SVO, subject-verb-object, just like English. The keywords in all common programming languages are English words. The punctuation marks are the same or more similar to English than any other language. You could say that all common programming languages are Latin with symbols, written in English.
This is why it is easier to be a programmer for a native English speaker than for any other person. Everything fits like a glove, because we invented a large portion of this technology, not because we're any better than any other person. (*)
As China rises, we're beginning to see things like electronics data sheets written in Chinese with an English translation as an afterthought. Quite clearly the standard computer keyboard is only natural for English users. It's utterly horrible for the Chinese. Imagine if the keyboard was created in the Far East. Our 26 letter alphabet with no accent marks would be the afterthought. Programming languages might have been mostly symbol-oriented with Chinese symbolic keywords. We might have needed to be fairly good Chinese speakers to be any good at programming. Future technologies could be like this.
Any contact with an alien race would be more of the same. We could have roughly the same technology but vastly different ways of interacting with it, depending upon whatever culture was dominant when it was created.
(*) I'm aware that QWERTY was designed to slow down typists but it's actually extremely well suited to type English. All 26 letters and the common punctuation marks require a single keypress, and they're all right at our fingertips.
Complaining about the inconsistency of the location of certain keys across keyboards started when typewriters were invented and hasn't stopped, I have the same complaint about my English desktop vs my English laptop. I have to press two keys on my laptop for "home", my desktop has a single home key. Like most developers a lot of my work is copy-paste-edit, inconsistency in the placement and shift status of the home/pgup/pgdn keys is a pain in the arse.
I don't really care about French keyboards. I do have to work on Japanese servers at times, but I do not read/write/speak Japanese. To do that I need another English PC beside me so I can compare the locations of menu items in the GUI. Oddly enough a Japanese dos box usually works in English, the Japanese logs are often in English too. The software I help develop ( for a Japanese multi-national) is the same, everything under the hood is in English, our Japanese masters just provide Japanese translations of English resource strings for the front end. To make things just that bit more confusing, the bulk of the coding is done by Russian sub-contractors working in Moscow. The Russians we deal with are all bilingual and very fluent in written English, with a few exception the Japanese and Aussies are all mono-lingual.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
They noticed that people were leaving accents off initial capitals because they're hard to type, leading others to assume that accents weren't needed on initial capitals, thus changing the language. Presumably the increasing use of keyboards has worsened the problem.
If you consider the close example "I READ it", you don't know if it's present or past tense. That's a loss of information. Anyway, the point is moot, no one in France is seriously pushing for changing the language. People even want to keep their local idioms, although they're slowly dying out.
~~~ Paf. Le chien.
There are plenty of inconsistent pronunciations in English. I wouldn't rag on people who pronounce schedule with a "sh" sound.
Consider the following famous poem, possibly anonymous, but also possibly excerpted from The Chaos by Gerard Nolst Trenité.
English is tough stuff
Dearest creature in creation,
Study English pronunciation.
I will teach you in my verse
Sounds like corpse, corps, horse, and worse.
I will keep you, Suzy, busy,
Make your head with heat grow dizzy.
Tear in eye, your dress will tear.
So shall I! Oh hear my prayer.
Just compare heart, beard, and heard,
Dies and diet, lord and word,
Sword and sward, retain and Britain.
(Mind the latter, how it's written.)
Now I surely will not plague you
With such words as plaque and ague.
But be careful how you speak:
Say break and steak, but bleak and streak;
Cloven, oven, how and low,
Script, receipt, show, poem, and toe.
Hear me say, devoid of trickery,
Daughter, laughter, and Terpsichore,
Typhoid, measles, topsails, aisles,
Exiles, similes, and reviles;
Scholar, vicar, and cigar,
Solar, mica, war and far;
One, anemone, Balmoral,
Kitchen, lichen, laundry, laurel;
Gertrude, German, wind and mind,
Scene, Melpomene, mankind.
Billet does not rhyme with ballet,
Bouquet, wallet, mallet, chalet.
Blood and flood are not like food,
Nor is mould like should and would.
Viscous, viscount, load and broad,
Toward, to forward, to reward.
And your pronunciation's OK
When you correctly say croquet,
Rounded, wounded, grieve and sieve,
Friend and fiend, alive and live.
Ivy, privy, famous; clamour
And enamour rhyme with hammer.
River, rival, tomb, bomb, comb,
Doll and roll and some and home.
Stranger does not rhyme with anger,
Neither does devour with clangour.
Souls but foul, haunt but aunt,
Font, front, wont, want, grand, and grant,
Shoes, goes, does. Now first say finger,
And then singer, ginger, linger,
Real, zeal, mauve, gauze, gouge and gauge,
Marriage, foliage, mirage, and age.
Query does not rhyme with very,
Nor does fury sound like bury.
Dost, lost, post and doth, cloth, loth.
Job, nob, bosom, transom, oath.
Though the differences seem little,
We say actual but victual.
Refer does not rhyme with deafer.
Foeffer does, and zephyr, heifer.
Mint, pint, senate and sedate;
Dull, bull, and George ate late.
Scenic, Arabic, Pacific,
Science, conscience, scientific.
[...]
The above is an excerpt. (Slashdot won't let me post the whole thing because the lines are too short.) Go here to see the entire poem.
If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
Revising the language because accented characters are a PITA even for the french is a damned fine idea.
[...]
Drop the accents already - they're a hangover from the past.
Sorry Barbara. I have read many of your posts and respect your opinion. But I have to disagree with you on this one.
Removing accents from a language robs it of expressive power. Many words used in English have been borrowed from other languages, and robbed of their accents, have lost much of their flavour in the transition.
Consider naive, compared to naïve. Look at what is lost, from the omission of a simple umlaut.
Or expose, compared to exposé. Or lame, compared to lamé.
It's time we considered the lack of an accent as a spelling mistake, not an act of expediency.
If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
I think the GP needs to just cut to the chase, for goodness sake, drop this façade, have a saké, relax to some animé , and then complete their exposé, with the suggestion the des gens qui parlent français people start typing all their written communiqés in English which conveniently disposes of the accented letters problem.
Since of course, no words used in the US have diacritic marks on them, ever
My PCs all have US English keyboards.
To type accented letters, in Windows I hit Start+Spacebar to toggle back and forth from the English International keyboard layout. (It ships with Windows, but you do need to install it and possibly activate the hotkey.)
The English International layout allows you to type most European accents with easy to remember mnemonics, like typing double quotes plus a vowel to put an umlaut over the vowel, or typing a single quote plus a C to put a cedilla under the C.
I know OS X has keyboard shortcuts for most of the accented characters, too, and surely there must be an easy way to achieve similar results on Linux, so I'm not sure what the problem really is.
Maybe what's needed isn't a new keyboard, but simply more education?
Breakfast served all day!
It depends on which kind of present tense (i.e. which meaning you're trying to convey). English has more than one.
Well, most European keyboards have the "dead" keys containing the accents like and `, so you push and then e to get é.
I'm not sure why they actually complain about the € character - it's not often used except when you write about money and it's only a few persons compared to the vast number of users that suffers there. For some reason I have the character instead of the $ on shift+4 - a character that I never use and I don't know who's using it.
Those that have set the keyboard standards seems to have ignored completely which characters that are most used by computer users.
Also realize that the QWERTY and AZERTY layouts are intentionally made to slow down typing - this because the early typewriters otherwise got a hammer jam.
If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.