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Ask Slashdot: Economical Lego-Compatible 3-D Printer?
Wycliffe writes: There are plenty of high end 3d printers which allow high precision and large prints. There are also plenty of economical 3d printers but most of them don't have high enough precision for printing good Lego pieces. What is a good economical printer for printing small Lego pieces? Build size is not important as most Lego pieces are tiny but precision and quality prints are very important. What is a good, cheap 3D printer that can reliably print tiny Lego pieces? What is the best bang for the buck when you want a small printer and don't care about large prints?
I wonder if this is even legal?
A little more detail might help....
"Tiny" is not an accurate description when looking for actual tolerances in a printer.
Visit the Arcade Restoration Workshop @ http://www.arcaderestoration.com
With the cost of a 3D printer and the 1 brick per god only knows how long it would be more economical to just buy legos in bulk, no?
It prints everything into one big monolithic blob, and you can't uninstall it either.
Duplo block might be as close as your going to get with the current precision of 3d printers.
Depending on how many parts you are having made, consider sending them to a company with a good machine. I had to have a few parts made for a work project. I sent the parts, they sent me a quote, the price was reasonable and I got my parts quickly. I don't do this every day, so for me I wanted the parts in my grubby little hands rather than the machine to make the parts.
How about LEGO gets a high-end 3D printer and customers can submit CAD files for custom pieces that then could be avail. in low quantities to everyone?
The most economical solution that I found was to simply buy used, good-quality Lego off of Ebay. The price is typically in the neighborhood of $17-$23USD per pound of used Lego (non-broken, washed, and sanitized).
A decent, high-quality, but non-commercial 3D printer costs $2500USD (for an Ultimaker 2). That's a lot of Lego.
With so much demand for lego pieces isn't it time to start thinking the right way? Forget a 3D printer, how about building a lego pieces making machine? A cutting machine, a moulding machine for home use as opposed to a 3D printer, which will probably not work well enough to make high quality pieces anyway.
You can't handle the truth.
Legos are already massed produced, dirt cheap. You'll never be able to 3D print something like that economically. You obviously don't understand the niche 3D printers are meant to fill.
why didn't you just ask it once? what is the reason for asking it several times? what made you decide to type the same question out with different words? what good is asking the same thing over and over doing?
I believe that Lego has a deal with a company called Graphene 3D Labs and they are making a filament that is specifically engineered to be used for printing Lego's. Hopefully they(or any other 3d printing company Lego may have approached) are also developing printing technology to a precision level that would be acceptable for use in Lego's.
Now in terms of price you will probably be better off just buying the pieces you need. If you need some sort of custom piece, then you are probably cheating in what you are making. Lego creations for the most part are limited to the design of legos basic parts. They are some custom parts but not so many. The challange for the hobby is to build based on the lego design.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Works OK but the glass effect on the first layer can be a pain.
I have been successfully printing lego parts with an RepRapPro Ormerod and a 0.3mm nozzle. It needs fine tuning of the print parameters and PLA was a little harder than ABS (i have not used) but the parts are working.
the one with the most noxious outgassing vapors will maximize brain cell death and minimize future educational expenses
I know this is a maker question and it's not really about cost, though the OP mentions "bang for the buck" as a requirement, but I think it's better to go to the Lego Pick-a-Brick store to buy individual pieces. It's like McMaster-Carr for Legos. I agree with others that there is no way a 3D printer will come anywhere close to meeting the tolerances you need to make Lego-compatible bricks. Other options include buying bulk bags of Legos on eBay or other web sites. We did that years ago and our 14- and 11-year-olds still go to the Lego pile daily.
Rather than tearing in and pointing out that Legos are cheap or we don't know the exact precision/tolerance requirements, can we maybe just allow that he's got a reason for asking, and try to be constructive? Perhaps they want to make their own custom parts that will snap on to existing Legos. Perhaps they're after a because-I-can project. Perhaps it doesn't matter why, and we could be civil to somebody asking for help.
Unfortunately, I'm just as little help as the other posts so far; I have almost no experience with 3D printers. The "M3D Micro 3D Printer" is pretty cheap and may be worth investigating. Its layer resolution claims to be 50 microns, though as I say I have no experience to speak of, and that may well be not nearly precise enough.
Good luck!
As someone in this industry (Ultimaker)
I will tell you. There no single printer you can buy that will do Lego level of quality. The precision of lego is just beyond of what current 3D print tech can do. The molds Lego uses to make their bricks are already on the extreme level.
Now, if you want to replace 1 brick. You most likely can get away with any printer, as 1 imprecise brick in a build isn't an issue. But 5 in a row are.
Your best bet would most likely be a small SLA printer. Like the a Formlabs or a Autodesk Amber.
If you don't want the dirty bits of SLA. You're stuck with an FDM printer. Not the best option for what you are looking for. But no chemicals. I would look at an option that has a 0.25mm nozzle option. There are a few. Our latest iteration has it. But that's most certainly not the cheapest machine.
why didn't you just ask it once? what is the reason for asking it several times? what made you decide to type the same question out with different words? what good is asking the same thing over and over doing?
Perhaps like one of my less technical managers, they felt that by asking the same question a different way, they would get a different answer, since they didn't like the answer the first 11 ways they asked the question, asking it a slightly different way a 12th time would magically change the laws of physics so that they could have the answer they wanted, and I was just being obstructionist by insisting gravity pulls towards the center of mass instead of towards, you know, Cleveland or something.
"Anderson here is our expert in all matters related to the drawing of red lines..."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
It's obvious most commenters don't have much experience with actual 3d printing. A well calibrated 3D printer, even a diy model, can print reasonable facsimiles of Lego blocks (multiple versions are available on thingiverse).
The problem is that the cheaper the printer, the more difficult it is to calibrate well.
To do it well, you're looking at spending at least $500, and a significant time investment. The more you spend, the less time you'll spend fiddling.
I'm going to assume that you're not trying to save money from buying Legos, because that's kind of foolish, but instead trying to make custom parts to fit within the Lego system. Your best bet may be to use, at a minimum, 1x1 lego plates (round or square) for the attachment points and use a cheaper 3D printer with a material that bonds to that plastic (ABS, I think).
You can use other Legos to build supporting structures for the printer to build around and keep the 1x1 plates in place and aligned during the process.
If that doesn't solve your problem, then I think you'll need to add a lot of money somewhere to get a solution.
I would look into resin 3D printers like: http://formlabs.com/products/3...
The two rules for success are:
1) Never tell them everything you know.
I could be wrong, but I think the injection molding process used to manufacture LEGO bricks is the reason they are so strong. Most 3D printers use PLA or ABS, and while ABS should be sufficient, PLA is a softer plastic that just won't have that "LEGO grip". Because of the layering technique used by 3D printers, there will always be more flex in the end product than the rigidity of a dense brick made with a highly-pressurized injection system.
I'm sure in the future these problems will be dealt with, but for now I think you're searching for a unicorn.
C. Griffin
"Can I keep his head for a souvenir?" --Max from Sam 'N Max Freelance Police
I know 3D printers are all the rage these days, but low cost CNC mills will give you far far better results than low cost 3D printers.
The bumps on the top and the receptacles on the bottom are high accuracy, the bit in between probably less so, I imagine the brick could be a lot more that 5um out of square or height and still attach firmly if the top and bottom connecting surfaces were accurate.
So maybe you could buy a bunch of those thin bricks and simply glue them onto whatever you print.
That may not be good for replicating everything, but you could certainly create a lot of new types of blocks that way
Nullius in verba
MegaBloks makes generic bricks that are nominally compatible with LEGO bricks. But in practice, they are built to lower quality standards and tend to attach much more poorly. As small number of MegaBloks in a collection of LEGO bricks can cause a lot of havoc and result in LEGO models that keep falling apart.
Yes, and even worse, in my experience, MegaBloks are dimensionally unstable over a decade or less, Legos are stable for at least 4 decades.
About 10 years ago I gave my nephews a set of MegaBloks and patted myself on the back because I had given an enormous set of "Legos" for so cheap. When new, they worked just as well as Legos. My nephews have long-since outgrown those MegaBloks but my own kids were visiting recently and we dragged them out. They do not stay together at all now.
I still have the real Legos which I had as a kid in the 1970's, and they hold together just like new.
So you might think you are getting a deal with MegaBloks, but not so much, if you plan on them lasting.
Ceci n'est pas une signature.
Although it's funny, I have found it is often best to say the same thing in two or three different ways because people are terrible about paying attention to what they read. Had the submitter not said "economical", "inexpensive" three or four times, people would be posting suggestions for $23,000 printers. Followed by linking to printers with 10X too much tolerance for the job.
In college, my speech teacher said "tell them what you're going to tell them, tell them, then tell them what you told them".
Shapeways (one of the biggest print on demand companies) says "accuracy is 0.1mm" http://www.shapeways.com/tutorials/designing_mechanical_parts_for_3d_printing
Lego says "The moulds used in production are accurate to within five my (=0.005mm)" https://education.lego.com/en-us/about-us/lego-education-worldwide/making-lego-bricks
Even if we assume the actual requirements for lego bricks are more like 0.01mm, and the mould is more accurate to increase production yields. 3D printers just aren't there.
Wanhao Duplicator I3 runs around $399
Info Link
http://3dprintingindustry.com/...
Forum
https://groups.google.com/foru...
Info on 3D printing and Duplicator Calibration and mods from JetGuy
http://www.3dprinterbrain.com/...
This is from a guy (JetGuy) That build a 4 X 4 X4 FOOT ed Printer
The shrink rate is higher than the tolerances of Lego.
How much it shrinks each print can change based on formula, environment, filament size, etc... The only way Lego gets around this is by using a high pressure mold, something you cannot do free form.
Also....
By the time you count electricity and time, it's cheaper to buy the Lego off the shelf. That's before you even buy the printer.
3D printers may never get there. Lego bricks are injection-molded to very tight tolerances -- 2 to 20 microns, depending on the source you read. (0.0008 to 0.00008 inches) Google "lego tolerance" to learn more. Even 20 microns is still less than a thousandth of an inch. Warm, freestanding plastic isn't currently close. Even if a printer can put down a 20-micron-thick layer of plastic, that doesn't mean you can build a vertical wall and maintain that precision the whole way.
And you can't even make a slightly larger brick and sand and polish it down to fit, because the inside dimensions are just as important for fitting bricks together. Anyone can make a precise cube, but making a 5-sided box with perfect 1.6mm thick walls is a whole different project.
Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
It's not going to happen - not even close. I'm looking at a reprap i3 right now and its printed parts. Forget about reaching anything close to the type of tolerance that LEGO has. Maybe a photosensitive resin printer using a 4k DLP chip could get close for small parts, but the photo resin isn't like the ABS that LEGO uses... it'll be brittle unless new chemistry comes along.
The whole point of a 3d printer is that you make the part directly. If you need something bigger or with geometry that the printers struggles to recreate, use acetone on ABS printed parts to disolve/bond separate pieces. Skip the LEGOs.
You are barking up the wrong tree.
The making of a Lego brick requires very high temperatures and enormous pieces of equipment, so machines, rather than people handle most of their creation.
When the ABS granules arrive at Lego manufacturing facilities, they're vacuumed into several storage silos. The average Lego plant has about fourteen silos, and each can hold about 33 tons of ABS granules. When production begins, the granules travel through tubes to the injection molding machines. The machines use very accurate molds --- their precision tolerance is often as little as 0.002 millimeters.
How Lego Bricks Work
Just print up whatever piece you like with appropriately-sized empty pockets where you can glue original Lego bricks (available as small as 1x1) or plates that will mate with the other bricks in your project. Tight tolerances and the right kind of plastic only really matter for the actual pins and sockets which must mate with the other blocks. And, there's always sandpaper if the body of a printed piece is a shade too large. That is how real manufacturers typically do things: they use high-precision or high-strength inserts only where it counts.
But really, just forget the whizzbang 3D printer thingy. Take Lego brick(s) and apply Sugru, Fimo, acrylic or urethane resin, whatever, around them to make your piece. You could use other Lego pieces as scaffolding or molds (use mold release) if necessary. You'll save hours of frustration and get a much better surface finish than any 3D printer in the bargain.
While you're in checking mode, perhaps you could research uncountable nouns.
1. You don't add any value to the current conversation
2. Also, you're wrong : it's correct to use the plural :
I suppose you could take the totally opposite route and choose Shapeways or iMaterialize's rubber/elastic type materials
It might surprise you, but there are clearly more than one type of material that is flexible (e.g.: flexible nylon and printable rubber, just to cite the first 2 of the top on my head).
As the poster is referring to different types of material, rather then a bigger quantity of material, the usage of plural is correct.
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
I see above a number of references to the high precision of Lego molds -- in the 0.001 mm range -- which is nigh impossible to achieve with FDM printers.
True enough. But take a look at a Lego block. Note that each little locking knob has the word LEGO embossed on it. That right there is why you need the ridiculously high tolerance on the moulds, so you can get that word looking like the LEGO trademark and not some random hieroglyph. You still need pretty good tolerances to fit the pieces together, but that's more like about 0.025 mm rather than 0.001 mm -- just barely in the range of a very well tuned and calibrated 3D printer with a fine nozzle. (Which suggests that "economical" and "Lego-Compatible" isn't quite here yet, but may not be as far away as the 0.001 or 0.002 numbers suggest.)
As a child, lego is awesome because you can build stuff. Then take it apart. Then build new stuff.
As an adult, lego is awesome because you can build stuff. Then take it apart. Then build new stuff. And it's an engineering marvel in its own right. It's just awesome.
Binding properly 40 years later is merely evidence of the awesomeness. I pity you that this is something you don't appreciate.
As many have pointed out, you won't find a 3d-printer with the necessary precision.
Do what I did as a kid:
Make your custom part - I did it with plain old ABS and wood (without a printer, obviously) - and spare holes for the original LEGO parts.
Then you place your "connection" parts on a Lego board, put glue in your custom part, fix it on your connection pieces (waiting on the board) and done.
This will give you the precision for distances many pins apart if needed.
Nowadays use any decent 3D printer for your custom part and then do the same.
There are fewer illiterates than people who can't read.
It might be best to weigh the relative cost in time and money:
1 Of buying the blocks you want
- vs -
2 Of buying, tuning, programming, material cost etc of printing the same blocks.
You don't explain your desire to print blocks. Are you planning to compete with Lego by pirating their designs? Is there some configuration you must have that they don't offer? These considerations are part of the economic equation too. Of course if you are just an adult playing with commercial toys, maybe you don't value time very highly and you have more money then you can sensibly spend.
...omphaloskepsis often...
This is starting out with the wrong assumptions.
Design a brick system that can be produced with 3-D printers, and will hold together when fabricated within the tolerances of an SLA printer. Forget FDM, it's too low precision and SLA is already achieving an equal or lower cost of manufacture compared with FDM.
LEGO is manufactured to astonishingly high precision, but I am not convinced that this is the only way to make a brick system.
Bruce Perens.
Not questioning the awesomeness of building with anything including bricks. Just questioning the emotional state resulting from failure.
But then again, maybe having toddlers who get an intense but opposite emotion of happiness while in the process of destructing, actually more like destroying, a construction (blocks, bricks, etc), especially if it makes sounds in the process, puts a different spin on failing bricks.
We're discussing LEGO here.
This is Serious Business!
None of them can hit the tolerances. The only place I could see it being workable would be printing out track for a large lego layout, because the track parts are expensive and fairly limited (the curve radii is great for a kids playset, not so great for a real model), but don't need to integrate so tightly with the rest of the system. Don't say use the Lego flextrack, I've got that and find it a huge disappointment. It is useful as an official 1/2 length straight, and not much else.
PS: This is news for nerds. +1 for the new overlords.
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You mean Legos?
There is a reason they have an MBA and you dont! (Hint: it is probably brain damage).
Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
What's the problem with 3d printing on top of SNOT? Does the 3d printed material not adhere to the normal Lego blocks?
So what subtractive manucaturing home machines can get to Legi tolerances and what cutting bits and starter material block would be options?
As many have said, there are two points:
What is the goal?
1- Just a couple of custom-made pieces?
Awesome, just do it (a bit bigger than you actually need) and adjust it by hand even with a tiny file or some fine abrassive paper. Just don't hope for it to be beautifull or last a decade.
3D printing technology is not even close to achieve 5 micron precision. (there are some: http://3dprintingindustry.com/2014/01/10/owl-nano-stereolithography-1-microns/ that say so but the pictures fo the printed elements makes me think that not).
2- You want to be able to produce something equivalent and many of those? You won't be able (and will be much more expensive than buying it) with a 3D printer
And the case of doing plastic injection moulding: Unless you are a guy with lots of free time and money to spend (or a professional of the subject in whch case you would not be asking this) just don't even bother. Just the cost of creating a matrix and calibrating a plastic injection machine to do the same precision and repeatibility will be so high that you could buy tons of legos for that. I'll explain why.
For the ones proposing plastic injection, I've actually done it and even built injection moulds (and worked with many different types of CNC and 3D measurement machines etc etc etc)
For being able to get to do plastic injection correctly you need
(note: I've learn all this in spanish many years ago so maybe the english terminology I use is not completely accurate)
* The right mould, with accuracy below the accuracy you need for your piece (so lets say less than a micron or you'll see the lines in the plastic ), to get to this precision you need not only CNC milling machines but some that are much more precise like grinding machines (and in some cases chemical polishing but let's not get there), if not it will also impact. the cavities that put plastic in every pieces (normally a mould will be used to inject several plastic identical pieces at the same time) must be I will dare to say perfect, or plastic will not spread equally to all parts of the mould.
Creating a good and optimized mould can take some time (and is quite expensive, check here http://intrepidmolding.com/about-us/faq.php and these people are dedicated only to do that), just getting to know a good plastic injection machine might take a few months of testing with different plastics, colours, pressions, moulds, etc.
You MUST also learn about security just to avoid getting harmed (and NEVER EVER operate heavy machinery alone without surveillance from somebody with first aid training), this machines seem innocent but can do a lot of harm if handled incorreclty, I've seen a guy loose 3 fingers and another one an eye for not following strictly the security measures. I've had an accident with a lathe even following the strict security measures (the tool got into oscillation and broke, with hard steel and ceramics this is too fast for you to react), one tine part flew around 20 meters getting stuck into the wall.
* The right temperature (not only of the plastic but of the entire system even taking in account the cooling time and flow), if not, you'll see things that break in some places, or lines of different colour and density in the plastic (it gets even more evident when trying to create security glasses, it's amazing how you see the lines and even tiny tiny bubbles)
* The right pressure and speed (if it is too low the plastic will start cooling down leaving traces and/or incomplete pieces, if it is too high plastic can get between the junctions, if it is waaay too high, it will break open something and belive me you definetly don't want that)
* The right air humidity: water in air can just turn your entire set of hot plastic into crap. If there is the tiniest water bubble mixed in the plastic it will definetly ruin it (weak points, or even worst if it's a translucid piece you'll see it)
* The right cooling speed (and all the piece at the same time), and you need to take out the piece
printing conventional bricks. Even as expensive as Lego bricks are, 3D printed bricks are crazy expensive when you factor in the machine's cost and the time required to print.
What does make sense is to print stuff that Lego doesn't make or is very difficult to obtain from Lego. As for compatibility, any crappy printer can print things to which you glue real Lego bricks to get absolute compatibility. You can print things with flat surfaces to which the smooth sides or the bottom edge of Lego bricks can be glued with almost any crappy 3D printer.
Do you want to make a swinging door for that Lego house or castle? Print a door with integral hinge than can be glued to a few bricks to allow it to be snapped into the structure. You can make all sorts of motor mounts, gears, hinges, rotary joints, etc., very easily.
The very first thing I did after hand-assembling this $200 3d-printer was to print a 2x4 Lego brick from a SketchUp file on Thingverse.com, using Slicer and Repetier-Host on Mac (now on a Raspberry Pi). It took me several trial runs but it was easy and I can now consistently print bricks that fit all my other brick prints and of course works well with real Legos. The glow-in-the-dark Lego prints are my favorite. I've printed hundreds of them from a single $18 spool of PLA filament and still going.
You are both wrong, its "LEGO bricks." LEGO group used to out notes in their LEGO sets explaining this back in the 70s and 80s.
you're taking the piss.
Somewhere in North Africa isn't it?
Well, in a small workshop anyway. You need some aluminum plate, a good (robust) hobby CNC milling machine, and a cheap secondhand injection molding machine. (Check ebay, there's loads around.)
Alternatively, find a local molder who's willing to fit your homemade molds to a bolster tool. The mold making can then be done in your shed. (They'll also likely give you loads of different materials to try, and probably colorants as well.)
I made a custom Lego-compatible part a few months ago. Took several modifications to the mold to get a tight fit, but the parts were plenty good enough. I think the accuracy was around 25-50microns, and I was able to produce a few thousand parts in a weekend.
Biggest issue is "mold shrinkage", which is where the plastic contracts slightly as it cools. It's about 0.5% in styrene-based materials (ABS is a good choice), but it can vary slightly along different axes. Lego have decades of experience to draw upon. Amateurs have to guess and tweak as required, but it can certainly be done.
"... the injection inlets are heated so that there are no sprues left when demolding."
These have been around since the 1960s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_runner
I actually bought an ex-Lego molding machine about 10 years ago. Quite small by industrial standards (40T clamp), but nothing special, just a good German manufacturer. (Arburg.)
The art is designing the mold. Hot runners can be problematic to balance, and they're not cheap. You need one "inlet" (aka "hot tip" or "drop") per part cavity, and usually you go 2, 4, 8, 16 etc to balance the flows and pressures. Each tip can be $1k. The rest of the mold can be 2-3x that price if you want it done right. But then it'll run "lights out" pretty much.
In an injection mold, pressures of 2000bar are not uncommon. You're looking at ten tonnes per square inch or more.
That compresses the plastic, which doesn't occur with FDM printers, and gives the finished item a lot of strength.
The other factor is the flow of the polymer molecules. You'd think they'd just be somewhat randomly arranged, but actually you get distinct flow lines. The part will be particularly strong along this direction, so mold designers tend to use that whenever possible. (It's a very technical art, and quite an enjoyable career, since every mold tool has its own challenges.)
I doubt ANY 3D printing technique, present or future, will ever be able to match the results of an injection molded part.
There have been attempts to produce hobby-level IM machines, but I've not yet seen anything very convincing. You can pick up a small secondhand industrial machine for under $2k if you shop around. There are already a few maker spaces with such machines, and I expect more will follow suit once people realize they're not all that hard to use. A half-decent CNC milling machine can make small molds (even for Lego pieces - I've done it).
Actually they will. 2-thousandths of an inch is only 50microns. I can hit that all day long on a $500 hobby mill. I use an old Axminster ZX25 with a homebrew CNC retrofit (also about $500). 25-50microns is about the limit, though. 5microns is a bit beyond it.
This is an old machine, and there's certainly wear on the screws, but I use a 5:1 reduction drive off the steppers and backlash compensation in the software. I made a Lego part mold last year with it, and the moldings actually fitted better than the Lego original!
The problem is people KNOW 3D printing is easy, but ASSUME that injection molding and toolmaking is hard. It isn't.
I didn't print actual LEGO bricks but parts that would connect to them. With some experimenting and tuning you can get a good fit even with common printers. The problem though is that ABS is harder than whatever LEGO uses and wears down or damages the LEGO bricks.
Disclaimer: I'm a so-called LEGO Ambassador, i.e. I represent my LUG (Lego User Group) to LEGO, but I'm not a representative and/or work for LEGO itself.
LEGO is very interested in this 3D printing topic and had a workgroup on this on the Ambassador forum. I did not participate in this workgroup, but I can give some of the results. None of them come as a surprise, if one thinks this topic over, though, so I'm not telling any secrets.
- for standard bricks, it is too expensive, and except for a few classical basic bricks, there are patent and copyright issues.
- for bricks that do not exist from LEGO, this may work, but color, clutch power, surface structure, and durability are nearly impossible to match with current technologies
- best use for 3D printed stuff is to technically link LEGO parts to other things, e.g. a RasPi case that can be connected to a LEGO technik frame, where color and surface structures don't matter at all, and clutch power does not matter that much
- A lot of 3D stuff is accessories for Minifigs, like tools, weapons, hair pieces, etc.
Basically, while there are thousands of 3D data sets for LEGO parts available on the net, actually printing a box of bricks to build is far from being practical.
LEGO uses 3D printing in their design process, but only for prototyping. They are more likely to cut and glue existing parts for the prototyping, though, as this is still faster and better.