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Surveillance Culture Brought To the Masses, Courtesy of Verizon (consumerist.com)
kheldan writes: Verizon is now offering a way to secretly track your family members' whereabouts and driving habits with your smartphone: "Do you have a teen driver in your household and want to know every time they get a little overzealous with the accelerator? Or maybe you're pretty sure your spouse's frequent trips to 'the office' are not so innocent? If so, then an upcoming update for Verizon's 'hum' in-car smart device might be just what you're looking for.' The new 'features' added will allow you to receive alerts if the target vehicle leaves a predetermined area, drives faster than a preset level, its location, and keeps a history of all the above for later review.
Where can I buy this gift for my family?
For people that are dealing with addictions where their presence in certain places places them in danger of relapse, alerts to a loved one could come in handy if they should be compelled to act out on their addictions. Likewise, for folks under surveillance, this could help family members create a buffer zone outside of their court ordered zones to help provide a second layer of protection. And of course, if there are restraining orders or other similar court actions in place, this could be used to help protect one's innocence if something bad was to happen (thinking sex offender's list and kidnapped child scenario). Albeit, it could be used in just as many negative ways as well. But it's not all bad.
We already lost the battle; Verizon already has this data. The consumer might as well 'benefit' from it too. Cat isn't going back in the bag.
You thought Microsoft was evil? You thought Google was evil? Nope! Verizon wins going away. Spy on your family, because showing how little you trust your own spouse or kid is just so great for your relationship with them and/or their development as a human being!
Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
My kid is approaching driving age and frankly I'd love to know that he's doing what he says he's going to do with *my* car. It's the classic, "trust, but verify" situation.
All of which will be legally accessible by the government, without warrant as it will be business records of Verizon.
And, of course, your divorce lawyer will be able to subpoena it.
And if you get into an accident it will get called in to make sure you weren't at the bar.
Anybody signing up for this should recognize just how stupid this is, and just how much this is going to be accessible to everybody who demands it.
Yet another bit of the connected society I would never want any part of. Signing yourself up to this is basically going to allow dozens of other parties to be able to know everything you do.
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
It's all coming together, nice and neat. Do they bother putting a real 'off' button on phones anymore? Since you can't remove the battery, how do you know?
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
The "surveillance culture" has been with us for quite awhile. I don't really see a reason to be anymore concerned with Verizon's new product that I would be with cars that have OnStar service. It's not exactly a new thing.
I guess I won't need the radio tracking collars I was going to order.
In the USA, we like stuff watered down, like beer, television, and freedom.
Do you have a teen driver in your household and want to know every time they get a little overzealous with the accelerator?
My older brother, soon to be 59.5-years-old this year, needs this. When he smokes inside the truck, he's usually speeding and chucking a cigarette butt out the window on the freeway. One year he got pulled over by a motorcycle officer, who picked up the cigarette butt that landed in his lap and asked my brother if that was his cigarette butt. Thousands of dollars in fines, he still can't kick the habit.
From talking to many of my co-workers who have teenage children, apparently no, you don't really want to know. You think you want to know, but if you knew better, you'd rather be ignorant of that. This comes from one co-worker expressing interest in something like this and everybody chiming in that he really didn't want to know and how ignorance really was bliss.
No, you're a jerk, plain and simple. If you trust your kid so little that you have to put him on an electronic leash, then maybe you shouldn't let him drive AT ALL. Oh and by the way if you can't trust him then it's probably YOUR FAULT for failing as a parent, YOU created a kid that can't be trusted.
WAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH!
And I'm sure that when you were a teen you never did anything that would upset your parents when they weren't watching you. Be careful what you wish for. Your actions now may cause your kid to distrust you for the rest of his life.
At the very least, if I knew I was being watched while I drove the car, I would just have a friend come pick me up. If you decided to track my cell phone, the next time you did it I would just leave my phone at home. Done, now you can't track my habits, you don't know where I am, AND you can't reach me.
Have fun with that.
...for those helicopter parents. Sorry, but no thanks.
Truth is like the sun. You can shut it out for a time, but it ain't goin' away. - Elvis Presley (source: imdb.com)
Have you ever met a teenager?
Because, my recollection of being one is everything you said is utterly false.
Part of being a teenager, apparently, is finding your own stupid things to do, regardless of what parents have done.
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
Let me guess.
You're a 14 yr old idiot who is going to rule the world any day now. But mommy & daddy won't let you.
Oh, I'm not going to tell him about it
Parent of the year!
Then, he discovers it on his own
And you'll wonder why he never trusts YOU ever again?
Oh, I'm going to be up-front with him about it
That look he's going to get on his face? It's called contempt. Enjoy the resentment, you'll have fully earned it. And maybe the punch in the face he gives you once he's had enough of your bullshit. Or maybe seeing him on the news after he shoots up his school then kills himself. YOU will have caused all of it, you fucking asshole.
One for the wife, one for the GF!
Hyundai made similar "features" available for my Elantra via my BlueLink subscription since 2012 (see also http://m.hyundaiusa.com/technology/bluelink/features/vehicle-safeguard.html) and monitor by App, text, or email. I'm sure most car manufacturers have followed suit by now.
You actually don't know anything about me, and yet you feel compelled to pass the most hideous of judgments. By comparison, I'm willing to surrender a 2-ton object capable of reaching very dangerous speeds to an inexperienced driver while not personally in attendance. I fail to see how I'm failing as a parent in asserting what responsibility I can into the situation.
I would mod you up if I had points.
LOL, a teenager, leaving their phone at home? That's hilarious.
Oh, and this is an in-car device as I read TFA ... this isn't bugging the kid's phone, it's bugging the entire car.
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
you don't trust them and always monitor them. if you want to borrow my $30,000 a year toy with legal implications if you hurt someone, then i have a right to monitor how you use it
Let me guess.
You're a 14 yr old idiot who is going to rule the world any day now. But mommy & daddy won't let you.
His phone ratted him out as he was trying to post his Manifesto.
When my (now ex-) wife was parking her car in a hotel parking lot for a few hours once a week to meet up with one of her drinking buddies for some extracurricular activities. Ended up getting my proof by pulling the SIM card out of her old phone and recovering deleted texts.
Instead of insulting the idea, give some reasonable counter-arguments to doing this. You sound like a scorned kid who didn't get enough love as a child and lashes out at other parents loving their kids. Even the best kids make mistakes and it's important to be able to talk to them about such mistakes. I know good parents wouldn't let their kids grow up to toss such garbage up at an idea as you have.
Interesting comment thread.
So none of you were trusted at all by your parents when you were teenagers? Watched constantly? Did they respect you at all, or were you treated like a little criminal until you were 18, then, what, kicked out of the house? That's what some of your comments are leading me to believe.
Trust and respect are important when raising children. How are they going to trust and respect you, if you don't lead by example by trusting and respecting them? More to the point: If you didn't raise them in such a way that you can trust and respect them, then who's really at fault here? Other parents I know don't feel the need to put their teenage kids on a leash like this, and they don't get in any trouble, either, and before you say 'as far as they KNOW', it's evident from their grades in school (good) and the way they conduct themselves. Are they perfect? Of course not. But how is being 'helicopter parents' and never trusting them a good thing? Seriously, what kind of adults are they going to be when brought up in an environment like that? If you can't trust your son or daughter to be responsible when driving, then maybe you shouldn't let them drive in the first place. I think the old time-tested rule of 'get a ticket, you don't get to drive for a while' is more than adequate. We're all already surveilled everywhere we go these days, why bring it into our homes, too? Honestly, where does it end? Or are you all so thoroughly indoctrinated that being treated like a criminal and watched 24/7/365 is now 'normal' for you? If so then I mourn.
Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
Nope. You just want to verify.
Or do you honestly want to tell us you're ONLY going to use it when you have to assume something bad happened?
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
...so I can find my car when I forget where I parked it!
(say, what would be even more handy would be if, instead of my phone telling me where my car is, my car would be able to tell me where I left my phone.)
You thought Microsoft was evil? You thought Google was evil? Nope! Verizon wins going away.
You say that as if they were mutually exclusive...
the kids who shoot up schools are the loners who never get the car and don't have friends. the kids in cars will be the ones having all the sex
I believe Ronald Reagan, the shining beacon of Republican Hope, and canonized for all he said and did, said it most succinctly when dealing with nuclear disarmament treaties with the USSR - trust, but verify. For a new driver on the road - I think this is a good thing.
OTOH, I worry about someone who buys this for their spouse. Unless you're getting it for yourself and giving your spouse the "keys" to the tracking because you have to drive somewhere that's a bit dodgy, you marriage is already on its way out the door.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
If you don't trust him enough to let him drive without you in the car, then maybe he shouldn't be allowed to drive yet, instead of bugging the car. Or maybe you should just drive with him until you actually trust him, instead of using an electronic nanny service to do your parenting for you, or is that just too much trouble? Or is your son such a problem that you've never been able to trust him? Honestly you're far from what I'd call a 'model parent' or even a 'typical parent'. I don't have a single set of friends who are parents of teenagers who have an attitude like yours.
"Done, now you can't track my habits, you don't know where I am, AND you can't reach me."
Hey, it's the 90s again!
I'm kind of ashamed of Slashdot. If I were a teenager and my parents got one of these things installed I'd solder in an off switch so I could go dark when I wanted. And I'd hack the account so I could watch what they were doing.
I have parents like you. Dad, having worked for the state DOT, had State Trooper friends that watched for me (I had a unique looking vehicle so it was easy for them to identify). They'd report back if I were going faster than the speed limit ("Son, I heard that you went 36 in a 30.... Slow down!"). They also reported to him if they saw me do the good courteous thing, like waiting for people to close their car doors and/or clearing the parking area before starting to pull into the space next to them. If he had access to this tech back then (and if I actually had a car back then that this could plug into) I have no doubt in my mind that he would have used it.
Admittedly, contrary to your son's situation, he did this while I drove *my* car that I paid for, self maintained, self insured, and self registered. His name was no-where on the title.
Recently, my dad was afflicted with a condition that meant he couldn't care for himself, but was mostly cognitive of his surroundings. I have the ability to take him in and provide care for him. I sent that gestapo/stasi fucker to a nursing home.
Why dont you make him pee in a cup and wear a bodycam while you are at it... P.S im a dad that had all the tools to track my teenager, but didnt because thats not the kind of human i want to raise. Liberty includes the room to fuck up. Think about this before becoming his personal Stasi.
Good-bye
Is your kid's use of this app with or without their consent? If you negotiate "I will let you use my car under the condition that you run this app so I can find out where you are in an emergency" and the kid agrees to the condition, that seems fine in my opinion. If you secretly put this app on their phone, I think the kid would be right to feel angry about your lack of trust in them when they find out.
Interesting comment thread.
So none of you were trusted at all by your parents when you were teenagers? Watched constantly? Did they respect you at all, or were you treated like a little criminal until you were 18, then, what, kicked out of the house? That's what some of your comments are leading me to believe.
Trust and respect are important when raising children. How are they going to trust and respect you, if you don't lead by example by trusting and respecting them? More to the point: If you didn't raise them in such a way that you can trust and respect them, then who's really at fault here? Other parents I know don't feel the need to put their teenage kids on a leash like this, and they don't get in any trouble, either, and before you say 'as far as they KNOW', it's evident from their grades in school (good) and the way they conduct themselves. Are they perfect? Of course not. But how is being 'helicopter parents' and never trusting them a good thing? Seriously, what kind of adults are they going to be when brought up in an environment like that? If you can't trust your son or daughter to be responsible when driving, then maybe you shouldn't let them drive in the first place. I think the old time-tested rule of 'get a ticket, you don't get to drive for a while' is more than adequate. We're all already surveilled everywhere we go these days, why bring it into our homes, too? Honestly, where does it end? Or are you all so thoroughly indoctrinated that being treated like a criminal and watched 24/7/365 is now 'normal' for you? If so then I mourn.
I agree with you, but this is also a case of where do you draw the lines.
Phone tracking? oh, hell no. I'd never do that to my kids.
Speed tracking on the car? That one is a good idea, because now we're talking about avoiding death and crippling - irreversible mistakes.
But in no way would I do secret tracking. That is an insult and borderline evil. If we put it on their car, then I'll put it on my car just to be fair.
Tell them it's on and why. It's just part of the deal of driving in my family.
If professional drivers can live with these devices, then so can the teenagers.
Don't be surprised. This is the internet: an ocean of piss where the turdbergs float and the fecesfishes roam.
Yes, being a stupid rebellious little shit is an integral part of maturing. It shouldn't be taken as a sign of poor parenting, but it should be allowed to exist.
How different would you be, now an adult, if you were monitored 24/7 by the average helicopter parent of today with this level of surveillance? Do you believe it would have improved the result?
This signature is false.
If professional drivers can live with these devices, then so can the teenagers.
Interestingly enough, I have a long-time friend who has been driving trucks his entire professional life. He's driven for companies like Arco/BP, who put GPS, cameras, and microphones inside the cab, for review of driver conduct and safety. He hates it, every other driver hates it, because you can't say anything while driving without them knowing about it, and anything you say, regardless of context, regardless of the true intent (as opposed to their interpretation, or their intent) can get you fired. Even an expression on your face (again, regardless of context) can get you fired. It's not a good thing. It raises drivers' stress levels to the breaking point, because regardless of their driving record, regardless of their productivity, they can be fired for mumbling something under their breath or just having a look on their face that has nothing to do with their driving the truck. The turnover rate is high. After a relatively young age, people just don't like or want to be watched all the time. In the context of this story I can't see it being a good thing for a kid's development into an adult to know they're being watched (i.e., not trusted at all) constantly, and surveilling them covertly all the time is just plain creepy. I don't think it's a good trend for society, either.
Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
. . . causing the Loner who never gets any to go on a killing rampage. Either way, someone will claim you're responsible, even if you aren't. Yay, 21st Century. Where **did** we take the wrong turn, and NOT get Moon Bases, Jet Packs, and Flying Cars ?
Hey dad, can I borrow the car to hang out with Jake?
(Teenager drives your car to Jake's carefully. Leaves phone at Jake's and picks him up. Goes to club or whatever you don't want in your car, driving like he stole it. If it's Canada it's the nudie bar for a few drinks. Brings Jake back home and picks up his cellphone, drives as carefully as he can back home.)
Yes, I was a teenager. Though I was careful about drinking if I was driving. Others weren't. Nothing beats manual checkups, and no, that isn't calling the phone. Kids know about call forwarding and how to use it.
I agree being ignorant might make you feel better now, but isn't the question whether would you want to know now or at his/her arraignment?
Thanks for being reasonable. :-)
If professional drivers can live with these devices, then so can the teenagers.
Interestingly enough, I have a long-time friend who has been driving trucks his entire professional life. He's driven for companies like Arco/BP, who put GPS, cameras, and microphones inside the cab, for review of driver conduct and safety. He hates it, every other driver hates it, because you can't say anything while driving without them knowing about it, and anything you say, regardless of context, regardless of the true intent (as opposed to their interpretation, or their intent) can get you fired. Even an expression on your face (again, regardless of context) can get you fired. It's not a good thing. It raises drivers' stress levels to the breaking point, because regardless of their driving record, regardless of their productivity, they can be fired for mumbling something under their breath or just having a look on their face that has nothing to do with their driving the truck. The turnover rate is high. After a relatively young age, people just don't like or want to be watched all the time. In the context of this story I can't see it being a good thing for a kid's development into an adult to know they're being watched (i.e., not trusted at all) constantly, and surveilling them covertly all the time is just plain creepy. I don't think it's a good trend for society, either.
Holy cow, As a matter of where do you draw the line between good, bad, and evil, that one is way over.
My family owned a mom-n-pop truck shop for a couple of decades.
Truckers used to be fiercely independent people and were probably the least likely to be able to tolerate being treated like that.
This sux for us all.
The operative part is that you don't have a single set of friends, or any kids. Talking out your a$$ about things you know nothing of. Classic signs of a single young douche-nozzle. Get some friends, have a kid or 2 then come pop off...
Interesting comment thread.So none of you were trusted at all by your parents when you were teenagers?
They trusted me, but they probably shouldn't have considering all the shit and trouble I got into. lol
But seriously, I see your point and I agree with it. This is one of those things where there are a 10000 shades of gray and no clear lines, plus every kid and every family is different. Call it 500 billion permutations of what's "right" or "fair" or "reasonable". One size definitely doesn't fit all in this kind of scenario.
There are some cases where it would absolutely be the right thing to monitor a kid's movements, in other cases, no, not so much.
It's so situationally dependent that it's hard to make any sensible statements about it, really.
Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
That stopped being true over a decade ago. That's why the Millennials stopped caring about cars. Now they just have sex at the permissive parent's house - no car required.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
The geek isn't going to want to hear this.
But tracking may be the only way to keep the very young and the very old out of trouble on the road.
Some seniors know when it is time to surrender their keys, some don't. Some kids can be trusted with a car, some can't. I've taken some of the calls which send you to
You don't need to actively monitor. Just the knowledge that the monitoring exists will (hopefully) affect the risk/reward calculations just enough to keep the stupidity to a dull roar.
they can be fired for mumbling something under their breath or just having a look on their face
As stupid as that sounds, I'd still like to see a website full of screenshots of truck drivers making expressions that got them fired.
"Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
When you deal with somebody every day, you can tell that something is wrong.
Obviously you've never had a parent with Alzheimer's. You're lucky.
Other manufacturers have had similar vehicle location/diagnostics systems available for quite a while. Not just "evil" Verizon: See also http://www.delphiconnect.com/f... & OnStar
You realize that this tracking device is attached to the car, right? I suppose your hypothetical kid will figure that out when he goes to pick up his phone and sees all of the messages from his parents.
"Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
Wife got a new car. Kid borrowed said new car to go "to the store". 3 hours and 150 miles later kid returns. We already know he went somewhere, Disney World for all we know or he would tell us. So now Verizon will be to tell us where he went? It's just a little step further than we already were. And even without Verizon, we're still pretty certain he went to Disney World and was driving 90 miles an hour on I-4.
"The ferrets, they're every where I tell you!"
This sounds like the Next Great Thing stalkers have been waiting for! None of this old fashioned GPS tracking! Attach this to your target's ^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H friend's vehicle and know everywhere they go!
Yeah. Great idea Verizon.
I meant to say simply that I have no desire to attend another visitation for a death that should not have been allowed to happen.
When I worked at Target they sold a gps that did all of this, you put in a car, you could bring it up online, you could set parameters for alerts, etc.
Kids take selfies and pics of their friends and post them everywhere on social media already, they are their own surveillance state, plus all the government cameras they've grown up with. Not a deterrent at all, just a sign that you are a shitty parent
Says the anonymous failure without the courage to back up his words...
How long before very short range jamming devices are popular among the kids, I wonder?
My eyes reflect the stars and a smile lights up my face.
I get why it's chilling to spy on your spouse or your child.
However, you have every right to spy on the whereabouts of your *car*. Those things are expensive, they get stolen, and sometimes people who didn't even do anything wrong get in trouble and it can be useful to know where it is, and maybe you just like to see where you yourself went. And if your child happens to use your car, then a consequence is you can figure out where they were.
Don't stick cameras in your child's room, even though it's your house that you pay for. But sure, track your car, your wallet, your cellphone. I'd even go so far as to say that it's not crazy to tell younger children they have to carry something with them that can be tracked (this might also assuage people's weird fears about kids walking to school alone).
Your husband is cheating on us
This is against the law under some surveillance laws. There have been a couple of startups that tried to do this, but they were pulled from the app store due to the legality of the app.
Of course a stalker would never use something like this.
Heh heh heh. I remember the first time I got pulled over. Driving my dad's car to my first job. Cop asked me if I knew how fast I was going. I said, "No. The speedometer tops out at 90." He showed an amazing amount of restraint not smacking me (And God knows I deserved it) or arresting me on the spot, but the ticket was a pretty good chunk of a month's pay for me at the time. Of course I learned my lesson. Don't get caught.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
This was state of the art in 2010 on T-Mobile.
Our pet tracker was re-purposed for personnel (not intentionally) and vehicle tracking. It also found its way to used car dealerships and, in particular, was designed for repossession when leasing to those with dubious credit histories (a fairly large market, btw).
The tracking data was uploaded and stored on our servers whenever the device had a strong cell signal.
Due to the size of the device, the technology was creepy and our ops folks had to share location logs when police were investigating murder and domestic assaults.
The high point was reviewing the more popular names people gave to their devices and posting the top 10.
OBD products are everywhere, I am surprised they don't make OBD hubs like USB hubs.
After seeing the ads for HUM, I just shake my head. Where does Verizon (a carrier) benefit from this product. They get data, I suppose they can sell the data, but other than that, no.
For the consumer, there are so many really useful OBD apps out there, and they don't require anyone to send data to Verizon or any other carrier.
I am guessing they HUM product is advertised more than the OBD other products out there.
That's really weird. You say this is commonplace now in the trucking industry?
This reminds me of a job I had many years ago, doing research on truckers. We outfitted some trucks with hidden cameras to spy on the drivers, and recorded it all on videotape. This wasn't used against the drivers in any way, and never got to their employers, it was used for human factors research. Anyway, we'd sometimes watch the videos, and it was really funny seeing how far some drivers could stick their fingers up their noses....
How is it attached to the car? Cars these days don't have phones in them, they just use your phone's Bluetooth connection to access the internet. There's a good reason for this: if they had their own cellular data connection, you'd have to pay a hefty per-month service fee for that. By using your phone, you avoid that.
>"You don't need to actively monitor. Just the knowledge that the monitoring exists will (hopefully) affect the risk/reward calculations just enough to keep the stupidity to a dull roar."
And what you end up with are people growing up with no real morals. They do the "right" thing only BECAUSE they think they are being watched. So what do they do when they think they are not being watched (and really not being watched)? It also brings up another generation believing that this new, even more invasive level of monitoring of their lives is "normal" and "acceptable." And the later backlash and revolt might be even stronger than ever seen.
Plus, if you watch someone all the time, you will ALWAYS find something they did "wrong". It is an extremely slippery slope and dangerous path our so-called "free" society is taking with all this never-ending monitoring, spying, and recording of people and what they do.
I have a tracker on every device my family owns (that support it, anyway - all cells, tablets, laptops, desktops). My wife/kids are just as welcome to look up my location at any time (I tend to be in one of 3 places or commuting between, not very exciting) - the thing is, I have to have a reason to look up where a device is. I don't have (or want) logs; where it is now (or 'last seen') is plenty, but it has helped on multiple occasions where a device was misplaced (Beacon works great) or my wife was somewhere she couldn't hear her phone set to silent - I could see she was still there and not missing my call because she was in a wreck on the way home.
:)
Non-consensual monitoring is wrong (except in some extreme cases with minors that I hope to never experience), also 3rd parties monitoring our whereabouts, but for me and my immediate family to be able to see where each other is (are? Some Grammar Nazi please correct me if wrong) at a glance as needed? I don't have a problem with it. I even use Waze when commuting so my wife knows when (typically within a 1-2 minute margin of error - better than I'd generally know in advance & I don't like to use the phone [other than GPS which is usually running with the screen off] while driving) I'll be home for dinner.
Oh, and I'm not the sort that uses Facebook/Twitter/whatever to broadcast every thing I do (or anything, I don't use any of those) - I'm privacy conscious, but my business (largely) is my family's business (and vice-versa). I think the trouble is when people don't view it as a 2-way street.
Sorry for the novella
"If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear." - Every fascist, ever
I like stories. I like stories about pinatas. In fact, I like everything you have to say.
Have you ever met a teenager?
Because, my recollection of being one is everything you said is utterly false.
not to let the cat out of the bag but... not everybody is adopted, bro. ;)
Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
How is it attached to the car? Well, let me do the research about the Verizon Hum device that you don't want to do, and I'll tell you.
It plugs into the car's ODB-II port, and it also includes a bluetooth speaker that you can pair with your phone that has some buttons to do things like calling for help.
Cars these days don't have phones in them, they just use your phone's Bluetooth connection to access the internet. There's a good reason for this: if they had their own cellular data connection, you'd have to pay a hefty per-month service fee for that. By using your phone, you avoid that.
You know what probably does have its own cellular data connection? A $15/month service from Verizon.
"Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
Most teens I know are MUCH more tech-savvy than their parents. They'd use the device to track when parents were out of the house for a couple of hours, and have an alert when it got back within a certain radius. Also, it's great if you're a stalker and want to keep tabs on someone. Why restrict this to monitoring kids, when there are so many other wonderful things to track!
That price gouged overpriced excessive snooping network just got the shitcanned, and I know many others who are leaving.
I get the feeling you didn't read what I said at all. I said that I feel one does NOT need to monitor, because I trust that the mere possibility will help add weight to conscience, in a secular equivalent to religious person behaving because they believe that their deity is always watching. The fact that some people are stupid enough to post selfies of themselves doing stupid and even illegal activites, and are then surprised when they face consequences for having done those activites, points out that those people are stupid, and is unconnected to the legitimate concerns about a surveillance state. Your final comment I discount as a troll, and refrain from answering in kind; though I do wonder what your experience has been in this area, either as parent or child, because I'm tempted to pity you in advance.
My kid is approaching driving age and frankly I'd love to know that he's doing what he says he's going to do with *my* car. It's the classic, "trust, but verify" situation.
There's a better word for that: distrust.
it's no different from when your employer installs cameras looking over your shoulder. They don't do that out of trust.
Any verification that isn't incidental disproves trust.
You may well be right in not trusting him, but you should admit to both of you that distrusting him is exactly what you do. Hopefully, you can work that out.
"Surveil but don't monitor" is even worse doublespeak than "trust but verify".
What. A. Mind. Fuck.
That is not "trust, but verify." That is "make them think you trust," and once they find out you were hovering nearby, they will hate you. By the time they are driving, you need to have established an open line of communication where it would be obvious if they were doing something destructive. If it is a responsible and mature kid, they will learn and grow from being able to bend the rules.
I'll chime in... First, kids are pretty resilient so it's unlikely that they're going to end up "messed up." However, I might have done something like this - with their knowledge and if I felt that it was necessary. I can't rule it out and I don't see any reason to be dishonest with you or with myself. However, I'd have never considered putting it in their vehicle. Ever.
So, it's almost meaningless as my two kids had earned their own cars by the time they were old enough to drive. No, not given a car. I might have a couple of dollars but I will not have irresponsible kids. They earned their vehicles. I did, later, give my son one of my old cars and I've since bought my daughter a new car (quite recently, actually) but they paid for their first cars with money they earned. I felt that was important at the time, I still feel comfortable with that choice.
That said, I didn't make it a habit to go through their stuff and things like that. Each one of 'em had a rather large safe in their room. It was theirs and I was not allowed in it. I had neither key nor combination. Anything not in that safe, I was privy to access at any time I wanted. I'd have told them if I were going to do so or if I had done so. I imagine I'd have given them the chance to come clean before I went through their room. They know I worked as an Escort/Chaser in a detention facility so they probably would have just assumed I'd find it and then come clean.
However, I never actually searched their rooms really. At least not that I can recall. I did go in and retrieve my missing stuff that they'd "borrowed." I did go in and check various things like windows being closed and whatnot. Mostly, the kids were pretty good. They kept their shit cleaned up, did their own laundry, split the chores, and behaved like reasonable kids. They had their faults, and still do, but they're mostly good people.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
While you did learn *a* lesson, I'm not so sure you learned the prudent lesson. The lesson is, don't be a dumbass when you're caught. The "yes sir" and "no sir" things work really well, as does being courteous. I've been driving for over 40 years and have zero moving violations on my record, zero at-fault accidents, and no sitting violations in well over 20 years.
I am not white. I am not always driving a respectable car - by their standards. Some of them are loud, fast, or even a little scary looking to some folks.
I have my paperwork ready, my car is clean, and I am polite and do not bother trying to lie. "Sir, I understand and I'm not exactly sure how fast I was going but it was a little faster than it probably should have been. I was in a hurry, not thinking about it, and the road looked clear so I figured it would be safe." Though, I must admit, I've not actually been pulled over in a long time now. I'm not even sure when the last time was? It has probably been close to ten years since I've been stopped.
And no, no I don't drive slow. I don't speed a hell of a lot when I'm around others. At least I don't normally speed that much. I'm usually ten over, at the most. However, between DC and Florida I lit it up - just recently. I didn't want to waste a night and I wanted to get to the panhandle. So, I did some very absurd speeding in the open areas of the 95 corridor. It didn't help. We ended up stopping in GA because we decided to fart around there for a while.
At any rate, it's not "don't get caught." Not really. You can't always control that. You've got to get lucky every time, they've only got to get lucky once. Instead, it's treat them like big, dumb, herd animals and bite your tongue and pretend you're giving them respect (even if you have to fake it - but don't overdo it) and attention. Look them straight in the eye but don't stare, move slowly and cautiously, never turn your back, speak clear and loud - but not yelling, do not use aggressive behavior, if you smile - do not show your teeth as that's seen as a threat, and be firm but not authoritative. They're dumb herd animals and often have peers with which to stampede. Keep that in mind and act accordingly.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
LOL, a teenager, leaving their phone at home? That's hilarious.
You'd clearly be surprised at how resourceful teenagers are.
If they know you track their phone they get an old leftover phone from a friend. When they say that they are going to be with a friend then they will actually go there and leave their phone. Possibly after messaging their friends that they are on the other phone now.
And previous posters are right. The teenagers will get a life that is separate from their parents. The more overprotective the parents are the further away it will be.
If you make sure that you can keep track of a teenager everywhere possible then they will go where it isn't possible. That may or may not be hanging out with junkies.
I've never seen a child with overprotective parents turning out completely all right.
Getting into trouble is the only way to learn how to get out of trouble and how to avoid getting into trouble.
You actually don't know anything about me, and yet you feel compelled to pass the most hideous of judgments. By comparison, I'm willing to surrender a 2-ton object capable of reaching very dangerous speeds to an inexperienced driver while not personally in attendance. I fail to see how I'm failing as a parent in asserting what responsibility I can into the situation.
I think I can help you with that.
Tracking doesn't prevent accidents. It helps you locate the mangled corpse afterwards. Tracking the vehicle doesn't make you more responsible in any way since it doesn't help you with preventing an accident.
You shouldn't let someone you don't trust borrow you car, teenager or otherwise.
Make sure you can trust you child first, then let him/her borrow the car without the need to tracking.
This shit again?
The source of an idea doesn't validate the idea, try to get that through your thick skull.
I doesn't matter how many names you add to your post, the idea you are pushing is not only wrong, it is also retarded.
Why dont you make him pee in a cup and wear a bodycam while you are at it... P.S im a dad that had all the tools to track my teenager, but didnt because thats not the kind of human i want to raise. Liberty includes the room to fuck up. Think about this before becoming his personal Stasi.
Then it's pretty much guaranteed that yours are fucking up without your knowledge. There's no harm in monitoring those fuckups and letting them go. My own rule of thumb was that as long as it wasn't going to cause my kid permanent physical harm, or jail time, I probably wasn't going to intervene. It's unfortunate but true, that people, and especially kids, don't learn from the screw ups of others...they have to make their own mistakes.
My kid's a well adjusted adult now, and to this day, has no idea the level to which we monitored the cell phone, internet, and driving.
A simple example of one intervention we did here, and feel free to call us Stasi, but whatever. We noticed in our kids messaging that she (around age 15) was planning on leaving the house ~1am to meet up with neighbor kids.that we didn't know. While my wife was insistent that we break the silence on our monitoring, I took a different approach, turning on the house alarm system (we normally only use it when away on vacation), in front of my kid as we were heading up to bed. She knew immediately that her planned outing was ruined. Interestingly enough, the next time we checked her web history, we discovered her searches for how to disable the alarm system...A for effort.
Just another day in Paradise
If your employer isn't monitoring you in some way, it's probably because they're a small business that hasn't had an employee fuck up yet.
Teenagers, almost by definition, fuck up. As a parent, my take on it was that it was my responsibility to know what my kid was up to. With that knowledge, I also let her fuck up a lot. But it gave us knowledge about what we as parents needed to address. You're welcome to call it "distrust", I'll call it parenting.
Side note...I find it ironic coming to /. to see this argument, after seeing so many prior complaints from others who seem to think parents fail when they don't know what their kids are doing 24/7.
Just another day in Paradise
trust, but verify
These two things are mutually exclusive. Either you trust so there is no need to verify, or you verify because you don't trust.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
The reasonable counter argument to spying is don't do it. There are no reasons for suspicionless spying, and if you suspect your kid is an untrustworthy jerk then don't let that person drive at all. We'll all be glad of that.
What a shit response.
His first option was having a friend pick him up instead of driving. That deals with his car being tracked.
And you bet your ass kids would leave a phone behind to get privacy when they want it. They are attached to the phones because it gives them some entertainment, and, most importantly immediate access to their social circle.
So if their social group is doing something incredibly fun that requires a bit of discretion... yes, leaving the phone somewhere is exactly what they would do.
The smarter ones will leave it at an "approved" friend's house or some other location where they're normally allowed to be.
Exactly; my kid's 9, but I already know he's going to have a lead foot.
I already plan to put a data recorder in all my vehicles. If nothing else to tell him "You're shifting too late" :D
Read again, its an OBD2 plug, which is often viable and easily accessible (because your mechanic needs this to run diagnostics). It would take 2 seconds for a driving age person to remove said device.
and its not that hard to get a burner now a days, clearly teenagers know more about OP-SEC than you do.
Well to be fair that was nearly three decades ago. And after extensive research, I've found that by far the easiest way to not get caught is to not speed. And especially not speed when you're in the front of the line of cars, at 2 AM when you're the only car on the road, or in states whose primary source of income is speeding tickets. I also drove thousands of miles on that first job and quickly came to realize that as a long haul driver I had to be more careful than the locals. And that at the end of the day it doesn't really make a whole lot of difference if I tried to run 80 for the majority of my trip or if I tucked my car into the middle of a line of 18 wheelers doing a couple miles under the speed limit. And that the latter was certainly much less stressful.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Ah, you understand. I still speed sometimes but nothing major. I'm able to get off-road, even at a few events, and there are two tracks not far from my house as well as a lot of legit rally courses. I don't live too far away from, "The Golden Road." That's private but open to the public. There's no speed limit but trucks have the right of way. Sometimes they close it and let us rally on it. We even had a winter rally one year. It is as awesome as it sounds.
So, I get my speeding out of my system elsewhere. If you drove long-haul, I'm going to be inclined to think you might know a little about what you're doing. It's not a guarantee but it's much more likely than not.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
I think the old time-tested rule of 'get a ticket, you don't get to drive for a while' is more than adequate.
How are the parents going to find out if their teen gets a ticket?
I knew letting my parents know about tickets I received as a teen would only get me in even more trouble - and they would have still made me pay them.
I work in a place where my boss wants so much out of the people that work for her that she goes to the ends of the earth to micromanage and spy on her employees. She is a very smart woman however her success has brought a certain entitlement madness in thinking she can control everything in order to be better and better all the time.
I get the feeling that as a society here in the West we are so focused on better and better profits that we use more and more information and more and more surveillance in order to get these Results (some do, anyway). Basically, I wonder if the average worker isn't watched and monitored so much they are you in turn just automatically doing that to everyone around them and that includes their children. I have definitely met parents that, while smart and with good intentions, do seem to offer an incredible amount over their children. They often seem to be professionals, people who are told by society that they know best about a particular subject and because they have the Internet can look up anything and justify their actions in the name of science.
Is it going to be like the Victorian era except in the digital age?? People will be so rigid in what they have to do that eventually the pendulum will swing the other way?
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while you seem to have good intentions, please be aware that you're playing with fire. if she ever finds out that may very well mean the end of your relationship with your daugter. you also may discover she lying to your face leaving a deep scar in your heart. remember. Somethings Are Better Left Unknown
Jesus christ, you are a terrible parent. And that is one of the creepiest things I've ever read.
(Posting A/C because of mods.)