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Surveillance Culture Brought To the Masses, Courtesy of Verizon (consumerist.com)
kheldan writes: Verizon is now offering a way to secretly track your family members' whereabouts and driving habits with your smartphone: "Do you have a teen driver in your household and want to know every time they get a little overzealous with the accelerator? Or maybe you're pretty sure your spouse's frequent trips to 'the office' are not so innocent? If so, then an upcoming update for Verizon's 'hum' in-car smart device might be just what you're looking for.' The new 'features' added will allow you to receive alerts if the target vehicle leaves a predetermined area, drives faster than a preset level, its location, and keeps a history of all the above for later review.
Oh yes, that's totally what we need. More "security" as we stop holding on to these last shreds of privacy.
Oh, agreed. For the vast majority of us, this is a major incursion on our privacy. But the truth is, this technology has been in place for decades. It's just that very few cared until now. But for some people there may be benefits to this feature.
Select from tblFriends where interesting >= 4;
We already lost the battle; Verizon already has this data. The consumer might as well 'benefit' from it too. Cat isn't going back in the bag.
You thought Microsoft was evil? You thought Google was evil? Nope! Verizon wins going away. Spy on your family, because showing how little you trust your own spouse or kid is just so great for your relationship with them and/or their development as a human being!
Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
My kid is approaching driving age and frankly I'd love to know that he's doing what he says he's going to do with *my* car. It's the classic, "trust, but verify" situation.
All of which will be legally accessible by the government, without warrant as it will be business records of Verizon.
And, of course, your divorce lawyer will be able to subpoena it.
And if you get into an accident it will get called in to make sure you weren't at the bar.
Anybody signing up for this should recognize just how stupid this is, and just how much this is going to be accessible to everybody who demands it.
Yet another bit of the connected society I would never want any part of. Signing yourself up to this is basically going to allow dozens of other parties to be able to know everything you do.
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
I would like to have the ability to make my phone beep while on silent back so I can find the darned thing.
Asurion's Mobile Recovery let me do this but Verizon's family locator does not.
Still at least I can tell whose yard it's been left in.
Minimum threshold fixed. Thanks!
It's all coming together, nice and neat. Do they bother putting a real 'off' button on phones anymore? Since you can't remove the battery, how do you know?
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
I guess I won't need the radio tracking collars I was going to order.
In the USA, we like stuff watered down, like beer, television, and freedom.
iOS devices can do this natively, regardless of the carrier. If they can see the internet, you can use their geo-aware find-the-device feature, and also trigger an audible ping for locating it in the narrowed-down area. Same tool also lets you remotely wipe the unit if it comes to that.
Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
From talking to many of my co-workers who have teenage children, apparently no, you don't really want to know. You think you want to know, but if you knew better, you'd rather be ignorant of that. This comes from one co-worker expressing interest in something like this and everybody chiming in that he really didn't want to know and how ignorance really was bliss.
And I'm sure that when you were a teen you never did anything that would upset your parents when they weren't watching you. Be careful what you wish for. Your actions now may cause your kid to distrust you for the rest of his life.
At the very least, if I knew I was being watched while I drove the car, I would just have a friend come pick me up. If you decided to track my cell phone, the next time you did it I would just leave my phone at home. Done, now you can't track my habits, you don't know where I am, AND you can't reach me.
Have fun with that.
Family of rednecks.
...for those helicopter parents. Sorry, but no thanks.
Truth is like the sun. You can shut it out for a time, but it ain't goin' away. - Elvis Presley (source: imdb.com)
Have you ever met a teenager?
Because, my recollection of being one is everything you said is utterly false.
Part of being a teenager, apparently, is finding your own stupid things to do, regardless of what parents have done.
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
I'm confused on how this tracking device would help your brother slow down or quit smoking...
One for the wife, one for the GF!
Hyundai made similar "features" available for my Elantra via my BlueLink subscription since 2012 (see also http://m.hyundaiusa.com/technology/bluelink/features/vehicle-safeguard.html) and monitor by App, text, or email. I'm sure most car manufacturers have followed suit by now.
You actually don't know anything about me, and yet you feel compelled to pass the most hideous of judgments. By comparison, I'm willing to surrender a 2-ton object capable of reaching very dangerous speeds to an inexperienced driver while not personally in attendance. I fail to see how I'm failing as a parent in asserting what responsibility I can into the situation.
I would mod you up if I had points.
LOL, a teenager, leaving their phone at home? That's hilarious.
Oh, and this is an in-car device as I read TFA ... this isn't bugging the kid's phone, it's bugging the entire car.
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
you don't trust them and always monitor them. if you want to borrow my $30,000 a year toy with legal implications if you hurt someone, then i have a right to monitor how you use it
I'm confused on how this tracking device would help your brother slow down or quit smoking.
Wife can start a nag-a-thon while he's driving.
That's a feature of Where's My Droid. The app also has several other features found on iPhones; including the remote wipe. Free on the play store for the ad supported version. Pro version has more features unlocked and no ads.
Interesting comment thread.
So none of you were trusted at all by your parents when you were teenagers? Watched constantly? Did they respect you at all, or were you treated like a little criminal until you were 18, then, what, kicked out of the house? That's what some of your comments are leading me to believe.
Trust and respect are important when raising children. How are they going to trust and respect you, if you don't lead by example by trusting and respecting them? More to the point: If you didn't raise them in such a way that you can trust and respect them, then who's really at fault here? Other parents I know don't feel the need to put their teenage kids on a leash like this, and they don't get in any trouble, either, and before you say 'as far as they KNOW', it's evident from their grades in school (good) and the way they conduct themselves. Are they perfect? Of course not. But how is being 'helicopter parents' and never trusting them a good thing? Seriously, what kind of adults are they going to be when brought up in an environment like that? If you can't trust your son or daughter to be responsible when driving, then maybe you shouldn't let them drive in the first place. I think the old time-tested rule of 'get a ticket, you don't get to drive for a while' is more than adequate. We're all already surveilled everywhere we go these days, why bring it into our homes, too? Honestly, where does it end? Or are you all so thoroughly indoctrinated that being treated like a criminal and watched 24/7/365 is now 'normal' for you? If so then I mourn.
Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
Nope. You just want to verify.
Or do you honestly want to tell us you're ONLY going to use it when you have to assume something bad happened?
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
...so I can find my car when I forget where I parked it!
(say, what would be even more handy would be if, instead of my phone telling me where my car is, my car would be able to tell me where I left my phone.)
You thought Microsoft was evil? You thought Google was evil? Nope! Verizon wins going away.
You say that as if they were mutually exclusive...
the kids who shoot up schools are the loners who never get the car and don't have friends. the kids in cars will be the ones having all the sex
I believe Ronald Reagan, the shining beacon of Republican Hope, and canonized for all he said and did, said it most succinctly when dealing with nuclear disarmament treaties with the USSR - trust, but verify. For a new driver on the road - I think this is a good thing.
OTOH, I worry about someone who buys this for their spouse. Unless you're getting it for yourself and giving your spouse the "keys" to the tracking because you have to drive somewhere that's a bit dodgy, you marriage is already on its way out the door.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
If you don't trust him enough to let him drive without you in the car, then maybe he shouldn't be allowed to drive yet, instead of bugging the car. Or maybe you should just drive with him until you actually trust him, instead of using an electronic nanny service to do your parenting for you, or is that just too much trouble? Or is your son such a problem that you've never been able to trust him? Honestly you're far from what I'd call a 'model parent' or even a 'typical parent'. I don't have a single set of friends who are parents of teenagers who have an attitude like yours.
google IFTTT
"Done, now you can't track my habits, you don't know where I am, AND you can't reach me."
Hey, it's the 90s again!
I'm kind of ashamed of Slashdot. If I were a teenager and my parents got one of these things installed I'd solder in an off switch so I could go dark when I wanted. And I'd hack the account so I could watch what they were doing.
Why dont you make him pee in a cup and wear a bodycam while you are at it... P.S im a dad that had all the tools to track my teenager, but didnt because thats not the kind of human i want to raise. Liberty includes the room to fuck up. Think about this before becoming his personal Stasi.
Good-bye
All Android phones have this. Yes, the phone still rings if the phone is on mute.
https://www.google.com/android...
Is your kid's use of this app with or without their consent? If you negotiate "I will let you use my car under the condition that you run this app so I can find out where you are in an emergency" and the kid agrees to the condition, that seems fine in my opinion. If you secretly put this app on their phone, I think the kid would be right to feel angry about your lack of trust in them when they find out.
Wife can already do that if she's in the truck. Or did you mean the wife can start texting and calling him, distracting him even more than he already is?
Thanks to the War on Drugs, it's easier to buy meth than it is to buy cold medicine!
Interesting comment thread.
So none of you were trusted at all by your parents when you were teenagers? Watched constantly? Did they respect you at all, or were you treated like a little criminal until you were 18, then, what, kicked out of the house? That's what some of your comments are leading me to believe.
Trust and respect are important when raising children. How are they going to trust and respect you, if you don't lead by example by trusting and respecting them? More to the point: If you didn't raise them in such a way that you can trust and respect them, then who's really at fault here? Other parents I know don't feel the need to put their teenage kids on a leash like this, and they don't get in any trouble, either, and before you say 'as far as they KNOW', it's evident from their grades in school (good) and the way they conduct themselves. Are they perfect? Of course not. But how is being 'helicopter parents' and never trusting them a good thing? Seriously, what kind of adults are they going to be when brought up in an environment like that? If you can't trust your son or daughter to be responsible when driving, then maybe you shouldn't let them drive in the first place. I think the old time-tested rule of 'get a ticket, you don't get to drive for a while' is more than adequate. We're all already surveilled everywhere we go these days, why bring it into our homes, too? Honestly, where does it end? Or are you all so thoroughly indoctrinated that being treated like a criminal and watched 24/7/365 is now 'normal' for you? If so then I mourn.
I agree with you, but this is also a case of where do you draw the lines.
Phone tracking? oh, hell no. I'd never do that to my kids.
Speed tracking on the car? That one is a good idea, because now we're talking about avoiding death and crippling - irreversible mistakes.
But in no way would I do secret tracking. That is an insult and borderline evil. If we put it on their car, then I'll put it on my car just to be fair.
Tell them it's on and why. It's just part of the deal of driving in my family.
If professional drivers can live with these devices, then so can the teenagers.
Wife can already do that if she's in the truck.
He doesn't smoke when she's in the truck.
Or did you mean the wife can start texting and calling him, distracting him even more than he already is?
He's not distracted when tossing a cigarette butt out the window. He's doing it on purpose because it's his goddamn right as a smoker. And he's still piss off that he can't drive down the freeway with an open can of beer between his legs.
Android does this too, now. Has for a while now, though I'm not quite sure when it was introduced as I've used Lookout Mobile (as has my wife on her iPhone) for longer than either platform had the capability natively. Lookout's implementation is better than either platform's native implementation as well (more features), so I suggest checking it out.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
Yes, being a stupid rebellious little shit is an integral part of maturing. It shouldn't be taken as a sign of poor parenting, but it should be allowed to exist.
How different would you be, now an adult, if you were monitored 24/7 by the average helicopter parent of today with this level of surveillance? Do you believe it would have improved the result?
This signature is false.
If professional drivers can live with these devices, then so can the teenagers.
Interestingly enough, I have a long-time friend who has been driving trucks his entire professional life. He's driven for companies like Arco/BP, who put GPS, cameras, and microphones inside the cab, for review of driver conduct and safety. He hates it, every other driver hates it, because you can't say anything while driving without them knowing about it, and anything you say, regardless of context, regardless of the true intent (as opposed to their interpretation, or their intent) can get you fired. Even an expression on your face (again, regardless of context) can get you fired. It's not a good thing. It raises drivers' stress levels to the breaking point, because regardless of their driving record, regardless of their productivity, they can be fired for mumbling something under their breath or just having a look on their face that has nothing to do with their driving the truck. The turnover rate is high. After a relatively young age, people just don't like or want to be watched all the time. In the context of this story I can't see it being a good thing for a kid's development into an adult to know they're being watched (i.e., not trusted at all) constantly, and surveilling them covertly all the time is just plain creepy. I don't think it's a good trend for society, either.
Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
. . . causing the Loner who never gets any to go on a killing rampage. Either way, someone will claim you're responsible, even if you aren't. Yay, 21st Century. Where **did** we take the wrong turn, and NOT get Moon Bases, Jet Packs, and Flying Cars ?
The operative part is that you don't have a single set of friends, or any kids. Talking out your a$$ about things you know nothing of. Classic signs of a single young douche-nozzle. Get some friends, have a kid or 2 then come pop off...
Interesting comment thread.So none of you were trusted at all by your parents when you were teenagers?
They trusted me, but they probably shouldn't have considering all the shit and trouble I got into. lol
But seriously, I see your point and I agree with it. This is one of those things where there are a 10000 shades of gray and no clear lines, plus every kid and every family is different. Call it 500 billion permutations of what's "right" or "fair" or "reasonable". One size definitely doesn't fit all in this kind of scenario.
There are some cases where it would absolutely be the right thing to monitor a kid's movements, in other cases, no, not so much.
It's so situationally dependent that it's hard to make any sensible statements about it, really.
Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
That stopped being true over a decade ago. That's why the Millennials stopped caring about cars. Now they just have sex at the permissive parent's house - no car required.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
The geek isn't going to want to hear this.
But tracking may be the only way to keep the very young and the very old out of trouble on the road.
Some seniors know when it is time to surrender their keys, some don't. Some kids can be trusted with a car, some can't. I've taken some of the calls which send you to
I grew up with no surviving pictures of me and a skull bong, my parents didn't always know where I was as a teen, and I've always driven fast.....but hey at least back then I was able to be more independent, make mistakes, learn from them and grow up without feeling like I had to have Mommy and Daddy watching my every move......
I'm glad I got to be what used to be a 'traditional' teenage part of my life.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
You don't need to actively monitor. Just the knowledge that the monitoring exists will (hopefully) affect the risk/reward calculations just enough to keep the stupidity to a dull roar.
they can be fired for mumbling something under their breath or just having a look on their face
As stupid as that sounds, I'd still like to see a website full of screenshots of truck drivers making expressions that got them fired.
"Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
When you deal with somebody every day, you can tell that something is wrong.
Obviously you've never had a parent with Alzheimer's. You're lucky.
Other manufacturers have had similar vehicle location/diagnostics systems available for quite a while. Not just "evil" Verizon: See also http://www.delphiconnect.com/f... & OnStar
You realize that this tracking device is attached to the car, right? I suppose your hypothetical kid will figure that out when he goes to pick up his phone and sees all of the messages from his parents.
"Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
Wife got a new car. Kid borrowed said new car to go "to the store". 3 hours and 150 miles later kid returns. We already know he went somewhere, Disney World for all we know or he would tell us. So now Verizon will be to tell us where he went? It's just a little step further than we already were. And even without Verizon, we're still pretty certain he went to Disney World and was driving 90 miles an hour on I-4.
"The ferrets, they're every where I tell you!"
No, that's pretty much the definition of a redneck.
A Redneck is the guy who drinks a bottle of beer while he's speeding down the freeway in hi pickup truck, and tosses the bottle out the window when he's done. A Good Ole Boy, on the other hand, puts the empty in the trash.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
Wife can start a nag-a-thon while he's driving.
Yeah that totally helps a smoker who's driving while angry.
"Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
This sounds like the Next Great Thing stalkers have been waiting for! None of this old fashioned GPS tracking! Attach this to your target's ^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H friend's vehicle and know everywhere they go!
Yeah. Great idea Verizon.
I meant to say simply that I have no desire to attend another visitation for a death that should not have been allowed to happen.
When I worked at Target they sold a gps that did all of this, you put in a car, you could bring it up online, you could set parameters for alerts, etc.
Takes Helicopter parenting to a whole new level...
Why do you think he's a smoker who drives while angry?
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
Kids take selfies and pics of their friends and post them everywhere on social media already, they are their own surveillance state, plus all the government cameras they've grown up with. Not a deterrent at all, just a sign that you are a shitty parent
Says the anonymous failure without the courage to back up his words...
How long before very short range jamming devices are popular among the kids, I wonder?
My eyes reflect the stars and a smile lights up my face.
I get why it's chilling to spy on your spouse or your child.
However, you have every right to spy on the whereabouts of your *car*. Those things are expensive, they get stolen, and sometimes people who didn't even do anything wrong get in trouble and it can be useful to know where it is, and maybe you just like to see where you yourself went. And if your child happens to use your car, then a consequence is you can figure out where they were.
Don't stick cameras in your child's room, even though it's your house that you pay for. But sure, track your car, your wallet, your cellphone. I'd even go so far as to say that it's not crazy to tell younger children they have to carry something with them that can be tracked (this might also assuage people's weird fears about kids walking to school alone).
I'm just waiting for the next level, where if a parent can't find a realtime video feed from some device on the kid, they will go spastic.
My question is... with all this 1984-esque technology, are our kids any safer, on a realistic scale? It doesn't seem that way.
I'm reminded of when I was at a seamstress's house getting some costuming made. She lived near an elementary school. It was almost amusing watching the cadres of resource officers and a SWAT presence to watch vehicles coming and going when kids are getting dropped and picked up.
It was pretty sad watching kids get picked up by parents who lived one block away. I feel sorry for the kids, as they have never gained any traits other than living in a dense society, where if something happens (power grid failure), they are completely incapable of surviving anything past the loss of cell network service.
Heh heh heh. I remember the first time I got pulled over. Driving my dad's car to my first job. Cop asked me if I knew how fast I was going. I said, "No. The speedometer tops out at 90." He showed an amazing amount of restraint not smacking me (And God knows I deserved it) or arresting me on the spot, but the ticket was a pretty good chunk of a month's pay for me at the time. Of course I learned my lesson. Don't get caught.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
This was state of the art in 2010 on T-Mobile.
Our pet tracker was re-purposed for personnel (not intentionally) and vehicle tracking. It also found its way to used car dealerships and, in particular, was designed for repossession when leasing to those with dubious credit histories (a fairly large market, btw).
The tracking data was uploaded and stored on our servers whenever the device had a strong cell signal.
Due to the size of the device, the technology was creepy and our ops folks had to share location logs when police were investigating murder and domestic assaults.
The high point was reviewing the more popular names people gave to their devices and posting the top 10.
OBD products are everywhere, I am surprised they don't make OBD hubs like USB hubs.
After seeing the ads for HUM, I just shake my head. Where does Verizon (a carrier) benefit from this product. They get data, I suppose they can sell the data, but other than that, no.
For the consumer, there are so many really useful OBD apps out there, and they don't require anyone to send data to Verizon or any other carrier.
I am guessing they HUM product is advertised more than the OBD other products out there.
That's really weird. You say this is commonplace now in the trucking industry?
This reminds me of a job I had many years ago, doing research on truckers. We outfitted some trucks with hidden cameras to spy on the drivers, and recorded it all on videotape. This wasn't used against the drivers in any way, and never got to their employers, it was used for human factors research. Anyway, we'd sometimes watch the videos, and it was really funny seeing how far some drivers could stick their fingers up their noses....
I use Meraki (bonus is I can also see where all of my devices are at a given time - handy the time my daughter's phone was stolen at school).
"If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear." - Every fascist, ever
How is it attached to the car? Cars these days don't have phones in them, they just use your phone's Bluetooth connection to access the internet. There's a good reason for this: if they had their own cellular data connection, you'd have to pay a hefty per-month service fee for that. By using your phone, you avoid that.
And why is this woman still married to this douchebag?
For $15/month? You can get the same thing from free apps if you buy the OBD device. The only down side is the teen could turn their phone off and I hardly see that happening.
>"You don't need to actively monitor. Just the knowledge that the monitoring exists will (hopefully) affect the risk/reward calculations just enough to keep the stupidity to a dull roar."
And what you end up with are people growing up with no real morals. They do the "right" thing only BECAUSE they think they are being watched. So what do they do when they think they are not being watched (and really not being watched)? It also brings up another generation believing that this new, even more invasive level of monitoring of their lives is "normal" and "acceptable." And the later backlash and revolt might be even stronger than ever seen.
Plus, if you watch someone all the time, you will ALWAYS find something they did "wrong". It is an extremely slippery slope and dangerous path our so-called "free" society is taking with all this never-ending monitoring, spying, and recording of people and what they do.
I have a tracker on every device my family owns (that support it, anyway - all cells, tablets, laptops, desktops). My wife/kids are just as welcome to look up my location at any time (I tend to be in one of 3 places or commuting between, not very exciting) - the thing is, I have to have a reason to look up where a device is. I don't have (or want) logs; where it is now (or 'last seen') is plenty, but it has helped on multiple occasions where a device was misplaced (Beacon works great) or my wife was somewhere she couldn't hear her phone set to silent - I could see she was still there and not missing my call because she was in a wreck on the way home.
:)
Non-consensual monitoring is wrong (except in some extreme cases with minors that I hope to never experience), also 3rd parties monitoring our whereabouts, but for me and my immediate family to be able to see where each other is (are? Some Grammar Nazi please correct me if wrong) at a glance as needed? I don't have a problem with it. I even use Waze when commuting so my wife knows when (typically within a 1-2 minute margin of error - better than I'd generally know in advance & I don't like to use the phone [other than GPS which is usually running with the screen off] while driving) I'll be home for dinner.
Oh, and I'm not the sort that uses Facebook/Twitter/whatever to broadcast every thing I do (or anything, I don't use any of those) - I'm privacy conscious, but my business (largely) is my family's business (and vice-versa). I think the trouble is when people don't view it as a 2-way street.
Sorry for the novella
"If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear." - Every fascist, ever
And why is this woman still married to this douchebag?
They bought a house together with the down payment borrowed from her retirement account. Until the mortgage is no longer underwater and real estate prices are skyrocketing again in Silicon Valley, they can't sell the house to have money for retirement. So they're stuck with each other until circumstances changes.
Have you ever met a teenager?
Because, my recollection of being one is everything you said is utterly false.
not to let the cat out of the bag but... not everybody is adopted, bro. ;)
Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
How is it attached to the car? Well, let me do the research about the Verizon Hum device that you don't want to do, and I'll tell you.
It plugs into the car's ODB-II port, and it also includes a bluetooth speaker that you can pair with your phone that has some buttons to do things like calling for help.
Cars these days don't have phones in them, they just use your phone's Bluetooth connection to access the internet. There's a good reason for this: if they had their own cellular data connection, you'd have to pay a hefty per-month service fee for that. By using your phone, you avoid that.
You know what probably does have its own cellular data connection? A $15/month service from Verizon.
"Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
Surely they could set up a corporation to own the house, then each be half-owner of the corporation (or maybe less on his side since the down payment was hers; community property law should support that since she owned that money before the marriage), move out, rent the house out, and get a divorce.
I get the feeling you didn't read what I said at all. I said that I feel one does NOT need to monitor, because I trust that the mere possibility will help add weight to conscience, in a secular equivalent to religious person behaving because they believe that their deity is always watching. The fact that some people are stupid enough to post selfies of themselves doing stupid and even illegal activites, and are then surprised when they face consequences for having done those activites, points out that those people are stupid, and is unconnected to the legitimate concerns about a surveillance state. Your final comment I discount as a troll, and refrain from answering in kind; though I do wonder what your experience has been in this area, either as parent or child, because I'm tempted to pity you in advance.
My kid is approaching driving age and frankly I'd love to know that he's doing what he says he's going to do with *my* car. It's the classic, "trust, but verify" situation.
There's a better word for that: distrust.
it's no different from when your employer installs cameras looking over your shoulder. They don't do that out of trust.
Any verification that isn't incidental disproves trust.
You may well be right in not trusting him, but you should admit to both of you that distrusting him is exactly what you do. Hopefully, you can work that out.
I hate to say this but I'm kind of fond of the truth. To answer your question, yes - or, quite probably, yes. Crime is trending down and has been for years. Violent crime is down, property crime is down, crimes against children are down, and all that.
Now, it's important to remember that correlation doesn't equal causation but - it's also important to point out that there's probably some causation that's attributed to all these advances in monitoring. It's well known, with lots of data, that we behave differently when we believe we're being watched.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
I'll chime in... First, kids are pretty resilient so it's unlikely that they're going to end up "messed up." However, I might have done something like this - with their knowledge and if I felt that it was necessary. I can't rule it out and I don't see any reason to be dishonest with you or with myself. However, I'd have never considered putting it in their vehicle. Ever.
So, it's almost meaningless as my two kids had earned their own cars by the time they were old enough to drive. No, not given a car. I might have a couple of dollars but I will not have irresponsible kids. They earned their vehicles. I did, later, give my son one of my old cars and I've since bought my daughter a new car (quite recently, actually) but they paid for their first cars with money they earned. I felt that was important at the time, I still feel comfortable with that choice.
That said, I didn't make it a habit to go through their stuff and things like that. Each one of 'em had a rather large safe in their room. It was theirs and I was not allowed in it. I had neither key nor combination. Anything not in that safe, I was privy to access at any time I wanted. I'd have told them if I were going to do so or if I had done so. I imagine I'd have given them the chance to come clean before I went through their room. They know I worked as an Escort/Chaser in a detention facility so they probably would have just assumed I'd find it and then come clean.
However, I never actually searched their rooms really. At least not that I can recall. I did go in and retrieve my missing stuff that they'd "borrowed." I did go in and check various things like windows being closed and whatnot. Mostly, the kids were pretty good. They kept their shit cleaned up, did their own laundry, split the chores, and behaved like reasonable kids. They had their faults, and still do, but they're mostly good people.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
While you did learn *a* lesson, I'm not so sure you learned the prudent lesson. The lesson is, don't be a dumbass when you're caught. The "yes sir" and "no sir" things work really well, as does being courteous. I've been driving for over 40 years and have zero moving violations on my record, zero at-fault accidents, and no sitting violations in well over 20 years.
I am not white. I am not always driving a respectable car - by their standards. Some of them are loud, fast, or even a little scary looking to some folks.
I have my paperwork ready, my car is clean, and I am polite and do not bother trying to lie. "Sir, I understand and I'm not exactly sure how fast I was going but it was a little faster than it probably should have been. I was in a hurry, not thinking about it, and the road looked clear so I figured it would be safe." Though, I must admit, I've not actually been pulled over in a long time now. I'm not even sure when the last time was? It has probably been close to ten years since I've been stopped.
And no, no I don't drive slow. I don't speed a hell of a lot when I'm around others. At least I don't normally speed that much. I'm usually ten over, at the most. However, between DC and Florida I lit it up - just recently. I didn't want to waste a night and I wanted to get to the panhandle. So, I did some very absurd speeding in the open areas of the 95 corridor. It didn't help. We ended up stopping in GA because we decided to fart around there for a while.
At any rate, it's not "don't get caught." Not really. You can't always control that. You've got to get lucky every time, they've only got to get lucky once. Instead, it's treat them like big, dumb, herd animals and bite your tongue and pretend you're giving them respect (even if you have to fake it - but don't overdo it) and attention. Look them straight in the eye but don't stare, move slowly and cautiously, never turn your back, speak clear and loud - but not yelling, do not use aggressive behavior, if you smile - do not show your teeth as that's seen as a threat, and be firm but not authoritative. They're dumb herd animals and often have peers with which to stampede. Keep that in mind and act accordingly.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
Why dont you make him pee in a cup and wear a bodycam while you are at it... P.S im a dad that had all the tools to track my teenager, but didnt because thats not the kind of human i want to raise. Liberty includes the room to fuck up. Think about this before becoming his personal Stasi.
Then it's pretty much guaranteed that yours are fucking up without your knowledge. There's no harm in monitoring those fuckups and letting them go. My own rule of thumb was that as long as it wasn't going to cause my kid permanent physical harm, or jail time, I probably wasn't going to intervene. It's unfortunate but true, that people, and especially kids, don't learn from the screw ups of others...they have to make their own mistakes.
My kid's a well adjusted adult now, and to this day, has no idea the level to which we monitored the cell phone, internet, and driving.
A simple example of one intervention we did here, and feel free to call us Stasi, but whatever. We noticed in our kids messaging that she (around age 15) was planning on leaving the house ~1am to meet up with neighbor kids.that we didn't know. While my wife was insistent that we break the silence on our monitoring, I took a different approach, turning on the house alarm system (we normally only use it when away on vacation), in front of my kid as we were heading up to bed. She knew immediately that her planned outing was ruined. Interestingly enough, the next time we checked her web history, we discovered her searches for how to disable the alarm system...A for effort.
Just another day in Paradise
If your employer isn't monitoring you in some way, it's probably because they're a small business that hasn't had an employee fuck up yet.
Teenagers, almost by definition, fuck up. As a parent, my take on it was that it was my responsibility to know what my kid was up to. With that knowledge, I also let her fuck up a lot. But it gave us knowledge about what we as parents needed to address. You're welcome to call it "distrust", I'll call it parenting.
Side note...I find it ironic coming to /. to see this argument, after seeing so many prior complaints from others who seem to think parents fail when they don't know what their kids are doing 24/7.
Just another day in Paradise
It's not against the law to track the location of a vehicle or phone that I own.
Just another day in Paradise
trust, but verify
These two things are mutually exclusive. Either you trust so there is no need to verify, or you verify because you don't trust.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
My guess is that you were not witness to the event, but heard it from your angry sister-in-law who embellished the case to make him look even worse.
I heard the story from my brother. The motorcycle officer got lined up behind him in his side-view mirror to pull him over for speeding when the cigarette butt flew out the window. My brother is very good at getting into "fuck me" moments.
So long as we had lots of laws and rules and practices protecting minorities and leveling the playing field here in the U.S., race-related problems appeared to go away.. but as soon as everyone relaxed or removed them, thinking race-related problems went away, the problems magically reappeared, as we all can see. You can't say 'kids act better when you watch them constantly' because if you're giving them exactly zero leeway to screw up, then you're not actually testing them, are you? Then there's the resentment factor..
Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
Surely they could set up a corporation to own the house [...]
Transferring the deed into a corporation would trigger the on call clause in the mortgage to pay off the bank immediately. A better method is to transfer the deed into a land (or grantor) trust, and then transfer the ownership interest to the corporation. However, these are asset protection strategies that my brother and his wife would never consider. Since the house is in California, they probably don't want to pay the annual $800 minimum franchise tax.
$800 a year to get away from a horrible spouse is cheap.
Well to be fair that was nearly three decades ago. And after extensive research, I've found that by far the easiest way to not get caught is to not speed. And especially not speed when you're in the front of the line of cars, at 2 AM when you're the only car on the road, or in states whose primary source of income is speeding tickets. I also drove thousands of miles on that first job and quickly came to realize that as a long haul driver I had to be more careful than the locals. And that at the end of the day it doesn't really make a whole lot of difference if I tried to run 80 for the majority of my trip or if I tucked my car into the middle of a line of 18 wheelers doing a couple miles under the speed limit. And that the latter was certainly much less stressful.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Ah, you understand. I still speed sometimes but nothing major. I'm able to get off-road, even at a few events, and there are two tracks not far from my house as well as a lot of legit rally courses. I don't live too far away from, "The Golden Road." That's private but open to the public. There's no speed limit but trucks have the right of way. Sometimes they close it and let us rally on it. We even had a winter rally one year. It is as awesome as it sounds.
So, I get my speeding out of my system elsewhere. If you drove long-haul, I'm going to be inclined to think you might know a little about what you're doing. It's not a guarantee but it's much more likely than not.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
I work in a place where my boss wants so much out of the people that work for her that she goes to the ends of the earth to micromanage and spy on her employees. She is a very smart woman however her success has brought a certain entitlement madness in thinking she can control everything in order to be better and better all the time.
I get the feeling that as a society here in the West we are so focused on better and better profits that we use more and more information and more and more surveillance in order to get these Results (some do, anyway). Basically, I wonder if the average worker isn't watched and monitored so much they are you in turn just automatically doing that to everyone around them and that includes their children. I have definitely met parents that, while smart and with good intentions, do seem to offer an incredible amount over their children. They often seem to be professionals, people who are told by society that they know best about a particular subject and because they have the Internet can look up anything and justify their actions in the name of science.
Is it going to be like the Victorian era except in the digital age?? People will be so rigid in what they have to do that eventually the pendulum will swing the other way?
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while you seem to have good intentions, please be aware that you're playing with fire. if she ever finds out that may very well mean the end of your relationship with your daugter. you also may discover she lying to your face leaving a deep scar in your heart. remember. Somethings Are Better Left Unknown