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AT&T Sues Louisville Over Google Fiber (wdrb.com)

An anonymous reader writes: Louisville was one of the cities identified in 2015 as a potential Google fiber location? Since then, Louisville has completed the pre-work Google requires and, most recently, unamiously passed an ordinance to remove legacy bureaucratic speed bumps to installing fiber on existing utility poles. This applies to any telco wanting to add infrastructure, so that's good, right? Well, not according to AT&T. They are suing the city to block this ordinance and prohibit the city from using its infrastructure as it sees fit to provide better broadband to its citizens.

40 of 157 comments (clear)

  1. Does AT&T own the poles in question or not? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If so, the Louisville City Council should damn well be able to cite the authority that allows them to tell AT&T to put Google equipment on AT&T's poles.

    1. Re:Does AT&T own the poles in question or not? by halivar · · Score: 5, Informative

      The poles are under the jurisdiction of the state Public Service Commission. In other cities, Google has met with the commission and AT&T, with the end result of Google Fiber using the same poles as AT&T. In this lawsuit, AT&T is saying they want the city council to follow the same procedure followed in other cities where Google Fiber exists currently.

      This post is not a defense of AT&T's prior anti-municipal broadband tactics; just playing devil's advocate against a bloody red meat summary.

    2. Re:Does AT&T own the poles in question or not? by arbiter1 · · Score: 5, Informative

      They don't own right to say what can or can't be installed on those pole's. Public utilities have right of way type access to use those poles to provide service to people, AT&T is just just being AT&T, bunch of (*#&(@*#&.

    3. Re:Does AT&T own the poles in question or not? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful
      True but that's not the point. The point is it allows other companies to go out there and screw around with AT&T's equipment without AT&T's permission or knowledge. That is the problem here.

      the ordinance, which was also opposed by Time Warner Cable, would allow a third party like Google to temporarily “seize” AT&T’s property – without notice, in most cases, according to the lawsuit

    4. Re:Does AT&T own the poles in question or not? by thaylin · · Score: 2

      However what is the damage here. IS google liable for any damage it causes as a result of messing with ATTs equipment or not? If not then there is a problem, if so then I dont see the problem.. Well I can see a small problem, but one that can be overcome.

      --
      When you cant win, ad hominem.
    5. Re:Does AT&T own the poles in question or not? by omnichad · · Score: 5, Informative

      The US legal code?

      A utility shall provide a cable television system or any telecommunications carrier with nondiscriminatory access to any pole, duct, conduit, or right-of-way owned or controlled by it.

      Source: U.S. Code > Title 47 > Chapter 5 > Subchapter II > Part I > Section 224

    6. Re:Does AT&T own the poles in question or not? by Charcharodon · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Lol, anyone with a ladder can go screw with AT&T's gear, and in some cases the access is conveniently on the ground..

      After looking at all the garbage bolted to the side of my house by the various services that have been added over the years before I bought the house, I grabbed some cutters and pulled off everything but the FIOS box and the electric meter. After that I pulled up all the lines out of the ground all the way to the nearest pole.

      Was it technically their property when I "seized" it, sure, but if they wanted it so bad maybe they should have come and got it once service was canceled. The shit on the pole is no different. AT&T are just being cunts because 1 they don't want to have pay to go remove unused/outdated gear, and 2 they don't want anyone else doing it because then it will block competitors from moving in.

    7. Re:Does AT&T own the poles in question or not? by Bright+Apollo · · Score: 5, Interesting

      "âoeGoogle can attach to AT&Tâ(TM)s poles once it enters into AT&Tâ(TM)s standard Commercial Licensing Agreement, as it has in other cities,â the statement said. "

      PUC doesn't have authority to tell a municipality who can or cannot connect to a pole. Everyone isentitled to use the poles. Poles are, contrary to AT&T's old conception, not owned by AT they are owned by the town, and a town can and does wield eminent domain to possess property for a public good. Armed with some key funds from Google, Louisville can not only win, but win a landmark decision.

      AT&T is overreaching. They are contracted to maintain infrastructure, and the poles are part of it, but AT&T is not going to start ripping up poles unless they want an even worse outcome in the courts. Those poles are owned by the muni, it's just up to the muni to remember that fact.

    8. Re:Does AT&T own the poles in question or not? by UnknowingFool · · Score: 4, Informative

      Many cities have ordinances about the control of telephone poles. However, many of them also have ordinances that the owners must allow reasonable access to other parties. Sometimes it is for a fee. For example, Comcast should be to use telephone poles installed by AT&T. No part of the ordinance compels AT&T (the owner) to work for Comcast and that's not what the ordinance or removal of such ordinances is about.

      I seem to remember a similar case in Austin when Google Fiber started there. AT&T would not grant Google the right to use the poles for any fee. The city intervened and said AT&T has to grant right of use for a reasonable fee or the city might take ownership under eminent domain.

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
    9. Re:Does AT&T own the poles in question or not? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      The stuff you ripped off and dug up only affected you and no one else. If you go start fucking around with AT&T's equipment on a pole or in the utility easement without letting them know about it you could wind up disrupting service to hundreds or thousands of their customers. That would be a BFD.

    10. Re:Does AT&T own the poles in question or not? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Funny how when AT&T pays for an irrevocable, unlimited, and permanent right to use a city's infrastructure, they get mad when city decides that agreement isn't going so well.

      But when customers use "unlimited" internet to its fullest extent, they are thieves and need to be booted off the network via usage caps.

    11. Re:Does AT&T own the poles in question or not? by oh_my_080980980 · · Score: 2

      Bullshit and you know it. AT&T wants to stop Google. Period. Unless you agree with the provision:

      Metro Councilman Bill Hollander, the ordinance’s sponsor, said earlier this month that the changes “will make the whole (installation) process faster and make the community more broadband ready.”

      Under current rules, each provider would have to send a contractor to move its equipment to make way for new services like Google Fiber, officials have said.

      “Depending on where you are in Jefferson County and which pole you’re talking about, there could be five or six different trucks dispatched in six months or more to get everybody moving their lines to make room for the last attacher,” Ted Smith, chief of civic innovation for Metro government, told the Metro Council’s public works committee in early February.

      Did you catch that Potsy: There could be five or six different trucks dispatched in six months or more to get everybody moving their lines to make room for the last attacher.

      So unless Kentucky really likes to be a road block to business, they could care less what Jefferson County does.

    12. Re:Does AT&T own the poles in question or not? by halivar · · Score: 3, Funny

      THus why in most states you need to be certified to do any sort of pole work.

      We better head over to the gentlemen's club and make sure the dancers are properly credentialed.

  2. AT&T knows it cannot compete in the market by QuietLagoon · · Score: 4, Insightful

    So it resorts to the courtroom to try to stop its competitors.

    1. Re:AT&T knows it cannot compete in the market by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      They can compete, but it is more profitable not too.

    2. Re:AT&T knows it cannot compete in the market by Kohath · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Versus resorting to dealing with the city council. Both courts and the city council are branches of government. Both would rule on the same issue. Is one of them illegitimate? Which one? Why?

      Consider reading the article before getting all hyped up and performing the usual outrage-theatre on this. It has actual info.

      The court will rule. The phony drama and the silly cheerleading will be forgotten. Google fiber will roll out on schedule. Some money might or might not change hands between mega-corps -- who cares?

  3. Not quite by symes · · Score: 4, Informative

    It would seem like AT&T are moaning about other contractors, like Google, removing AT&T equipment. This is nothing about trying to prevent Google from hooking up fiber. They kind of have a point as well. Who decides when something is legacy, needs retiring and removal? Sure, I hate AT&T as much as the next guy, I enjoy my ridiculously high speed fiber and feel sorry for those who don't have it. But at least read the article.

    1. Re:Not quite by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Moreover these are not the city's poles, but AT&T's, and they have a contract for 3rd party access, which Google is paying elsewhere.

      So unless Louisville can point to their contract with AT&T where Louisville strongarmed them into pre-agreeing to stuff like this in exchange for, say, 100% coverage, it does indeed exceed the city's authority.

      The OP badly misstates things about this being the city's stuff.

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    2. Re:Not quite by Rob+Lister · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Exactly. While "one touch make ready" seems economical, google (or any other contractor) has no right to touch/move/reconfigure ATT equipment without prior notice and consent. The complaint is pretty clear; the city has no right to make this determination. All of which is not to say that ATT aren't still a bunch of dicks.

    3. Re:Not quite by MrKrillls · · Score: 2, Interesting

      No. It's ATT making up a story that others will screw up their equipment. It would be exceedingly poor PR for Google to come in and wreck other people's connectivity and get caught doing it. This is ATT being obstructive, not ATT protecting themselves from big bad Google. And yes, sure, in redoing a whole city, some item will get damaged, at some point, but the kind of scenario ATT portrays is silly.

      --
      Don't step on the baby.
    4. Re:Not quite by Kohath · · Score: 2

      It would be exceedingly poor PR for Google to come in and wreck other people's connectivity and get caught doing it.

      Yeah. That's why no cable or internet provider ever messes up anyone's connectivity. Can you imagine a world where someone complains about a broadband provider? I'm sure the executives at these companies get panic attacks just thinking about the idea.

    5. Re:Not quite by swb · · Score: 4, Interesting

      What kind of authority does the city have over widespread infrastructure installed but poorly maintained and documented by utilities?

      A utility comes into a city decades ago, gets approval to install infrastructure. Years pass and as their business declines, they reduce the amount of maintenance, documentation and record keeping on this infrastructure. The base is still useful, but is cluttered with abandoned, undocumented and unused components.

      The city has a desire to improve services similar to those provided by the utility and believes it is in the best interest of the city and its citizens to repurpose that infrastructure for other similar services, and such repurposing may require a new utility provider to remove legacy components in order to utilize the base infrastructure.

      On one hand, you can say AT&T owns the poles and that Google's installers might corrupt the working parts of their infrastructure accidentally and in ways that are hard to fix and may irreparably damage their business relationships.

      On the other hand, you can argue that AT&T created any risk through negligent maintenance of their infrastructure, and that their primary purpose is to hinder the expansion of a competing business, either by blocking access outright or creating a burdensome review process for many obviously obsolete component the new utility may remove.

      I'm also curious what contractural agreements the city has with AT&T over placement and use of their poles. Is the city contractually obligated to let AT&T do whatever it wants with those poles, forever? Are they never subject to new ordinances, maintenance of the poles and components, etc?

  4. If you can't be 'em, sue 'em by evolutionary · · Score: 2

    This is typical corporate philosophy. they know they can't compete with Google's resources or technology, so they try to block them. It won't really work of course, but they figure they can slow them down until they figure something. Maybe an alliance with Verizon...

    --
    "Imagination is more important than knowledge" - Einstein
  5. Monopoly fights to protect its monopoly by NotDrWho · · Score: 2

    In the real world, their ain't much "Free" in most "Free market" capitalism.

    Film at eleven.

    --
    SJW's don't eliminate discrimination. They just expropriate it for themselves.
    1. Re:Monopoly fights to protect its monopoly by AntronArgaiv · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "We used to be a regulated monopoly, but we couldn't compete. So we reorganized as an unregulated ISP and we still can't compete. So, can we please have the good parts of each, and have things all our way?"

      "F" you, AT&T. The job of a government is to do what's good for its citizens. You want deregulation? Then you compete with all comers, including a community ISP. They'll pay you rent on your poles, just like anyone else would have to.

      Gee, it's a whole different competitive landscape when it's not just AT&T and Comcast and their sweet little (alleged) price fixing deal.

  6. turnabout is fair play by technosaurus · · Score: 2

    AT&T thought it was fine and dandy when the city passed the ordinance that placed an easement on people's property, so that AT&T could use the land for utility poles and subterranean lines. They could always repeal the whole easement and give them the minimum time required by law to remove the equipment if AT&T keeps pressing the issue further.

  7. Did the submitter bother to RTFA? by tippen · · Score: 3, Interesting

    You've got to wonder if the submitter even read the article it links to. That summary is remarkably misleading.

    Regardless of what you think about AT&T generally, it's pretty clear they are in the right on this one. The city overstepped its authority.

    1. Re: Did the submitter bother to RTFA? by mrchaotica · · Score: 4, Insightful

      AT&T isn't trying to block Google from using their poles.

      Of course, not; no incumbent telco would ever do such a thing! AT&T just wants to very carefully and deliberately ensure that the equipment is relocated correctly on the poles, and if that delays Google Fiber's rollout for a decade or two, well, that's just the unavoidable price of caution!

      (I'm sure the fact that AT&T's "GigaPower" rollout somehow always ends up ahead in the service queue is just a coincidence...)

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

  8. Only one possible response by MitchDev · · Score: 2

    All of Louisville needs to BOYCOTT AT&T, and then same goes for other cities and CableCo's that pull this $#!+....

  9. Ridiculous Jurisdiction Overreach By Louisville by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    Why is Louisville City Council legislating about the poles?

    That is a job of the Warsaw government!

    1. Re:Ridiculous Jurisdiction Overreach By Louisville by space_jake · · Score: 2

      With a little more polish you could refine this into A-list material.

  10. Re:In Utlity world, its called joint use agreement by Shatrat · · Score: 2

    90% of fiber is aerial. It costs 2-4 times as much per mile to bury it, so that's usually only done in urban areas, along railroads, and in areas prone to hurricanes and other extreme weather.

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    09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
  11. It's lies and FUD by MrKrillls · · Score: 3, Informative

    "ATT says they will suffer "irreparable harm". They want us to imagine Google will shut down the whole city and blame ATT for it. That would be irreparable. In the real world, those much more minor things that WILL happen are entirely able to be repaired.

    "Unless the Court declares the Ordinance invalid and permanently enjoins
    Louisville Metro from enforcing it, AT&T will suffer irreparable harm that cannot be redressed
    by recovery of damages. For example, AT&T will be forced to comply with a preempted
    ordinance, will be improperly subjected to regulators at multiple levels of government, and will
    suffer a loss of customer goodwill. A permanent injunction will advance the public interest as
    defined by Congress and the FCC."

    Buncha lies.

    --
    Don't step on the baby.
  12. Poles are normally privately owned by sjbe · · Score: 2

    PUC doesn't have authority to tell a municipality who can or cannot connect to a pole. Everyone isentitled to use the poles. Poles are, contrary to AT&T's old conception, not owned by AT they are owned by the town, and a town can and does wield eminent domain to possess property for a public good.

    I can't speak for this case in particular but in many cases the poles ARE owned by AT&T or some other private entity. They might be owned by a third party like the power company. In fact it's kind of uncommon for the poles to actually be owned by the local municipality. There are laws governing use and access to the poles but they may very well be privately owned. For example the poles outside my house are owned by the local power company. The phone and cable companies pay the power company to utilize them. If the pole gets damaged it is the power company's responsibility to fix the pole. The local government does not and never has owned the poles near me.

    1. Re:Poles are normally privately owned by David_Hart · · Score: 5, Informative

      PUC doesn't have authority to tell a municipality who can or cannot connect to a pole. Everyone isentitled to use the poles. Poles are, contrary to AT&T's old conception, not owned by AT they are owned by the town, and a town can and does wield eminent domain to possess property for a public good.

      I can't speak for this case in particular but in many cases the poles ARE owned by AT&T or some other private entity. They might be owned by a third party like the power company. In fact it's kind of uncommon for the poles to actually be owned by the local municipality. There are laws governing use and access to the poles but they may very well be privately owned. For example the poles outside my house are owned by the local power company. The phone and cable companies pay the power company to utilize them. If the pole gets damaged it is the power company's responsibility to fix the pole. The local government does not and never has owned the poles near me.

      My reading of the article on the law suit is that it isn't about who owns the poles. The problem is that the new ordinance has language that allows Google to require AT&T to re-position AT&T equipment on the pole at AT&T's expense. I'm willing to bet that the agreements that Google made with AT&T in other areas required Google to pay at least some of the expense. Which, personally, I think is fair.

  13. Golden child and the cash cows by goombah99 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I'm with AT&T on this. Google is trying to pull an Uber, and claim it's not subject to telecom laws since it's not a telecom. It's leveraging all sorts of goodies--many great benefits to the local citizens and thus desireable perks-- to get the govt to look the other way. But really if AT&T has to follow the regulations and google is providing an analgous service, this is not really a level playing field.

    AT&T may be slowing down progress here but they are also getting screwed too. SO take all the utiltiy taxes and regulations off AT&T and let them compete. But the cgovt can't do that. theynot only don't have all the jurisdictional powers to do that, they also need the money they raise from telecom fees and such.

    It's a tricky situation in which granting favors to the golden child is not good policy even if its good for progress.

    --
    Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
    1. Re:Golden child and the cash cows by Bengie · · Score: 2

      Internet is not telcom. If it was, net neutrality wouldn't even be talked about. We could spin this the other way. Since AT&T uses poles for their internet services, those internet services should fall under telcom regulations.

  14. This stuff makes me anti-Libertarian by rbrander · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I just retired from nearly 30 years with my local water/sewer utility. No large business is highly efficient, but this one was pretty good as large businesses go; and there was certainly no money wasted on activities actively harmful to customers.
    For the first half of my career,I was their IT manager. I could never stop contrasting how the basic water utility worked with how IT providers worked. We painstakingly figured out how much cheaper it was to serve commercial customers that bought water in bulk from residential customers, so that we could work out fair rates for the commercial buyers. Anybody wanting to hook in anywhere could do so for the exact cost of our construction (couldn't even add on a percentage to our costs). Anybody setting up in any registered city lot had to have infrastructure brought to their property line. Everybody got the same rates.

    Meanwhile, in IT, anybody who had a networking protocol used it ruthlessly to raise the rates you had to pay to join that network; AppleTalk, Token Ring, DECnet, the works. One thing that "Kids these days" don't appreciate is how one networking protocol that could be provided by many competitors brought down those artificial costs to something like how we work.
    Every other form of customer control - intellectual property ownership of, say, Windows or control of parts that could repair Apples - was invariably and instantly used by every player to artificially raise costs for the consumer.
    And we had control of *WATER* - life itself - what could we charge if we could back that up with cops charged with destroying any wells anybody dug or confiscating bottled water? Many dollars per gallon, of course; only the well-off could shower daily. You can see why we had to be a public utility like the roads!

    On which topic, what if a monopoly provider controlled the public roads? You'd be paying a buck a block to drive them.

    When I read stories like this, I want to tear my hair; they all sound so perfectly pointless, struggles over an imaginary problem. Times have changed. "Information Superhighway" was an instant joke, but the analogy between public roads and the Internet is pretty close in terms of it being "what you must use to go to work, go to market, communicate business". It should all be PUBLIC infrastructure, usable to all at the same rates, provided by that ultimately neutral actor, a government bureaucracy where nobody in it makes one dime more or less when it charges more or less. Employees charged only with accounting costs as closely as possible and charging only those, zero profits, with completely open books and responsible to a democratic body.

    Then anybody could rent access including any commercial amount of bandwidth, no lawsuits, no tears.

    We should re-wire the continent with all-fiber-to-the-home; and the whole lot of it should be owned by local municipalities and utility districts; their stewardship of it regulated by their States, and that regulation overseen by the Feds. From my career, I trust that system, it seems to work with water. I sure as hell don't trust any commercial arrangement I've seen about telecomm; not one I've seen in my whole life. Private actors can't be trusted to use any control of it honestly.

    1. Re:This stuff makes me anti-Libertarian by rbrander · · Score: 2

      Sorry you got modded down. Just tossing in the comment that we supported water conservation. We spent money on advertising, and worked over 20 years to force the City to go all-metered, when it had been optional flat-rate in the 80's. Our closest brush with politics, and hoo-boy, were we scruntinized that our reports on the effects of various water-conservation policies were opinion-neutral, no attempts to sway City Council would be tolerated. Imagine a telecom somehow being required to provide neutral facts to a regulatory body! Instead, they play them like violins with hugely slanted information.

      If conservation had been a much more important public priority, we could have enforced it without making profits. Just pass a Council regulation that all water rates would be doubled and the new 100% "profit" be handed over to the libraries or something. But new computerized meters could also have charged the same amount as always for your first five gallons per day, and then turned a signal on in your house to let you know you were now paying triple. Again all "profits" to something that saves tax money somewhere else or provides a public service.

      Conservation ain't it; there's likely something that private can do better in water (or bandwidth) provision than public, but I don't know what it is, myself.

    2. Re:This stuff makes me anti-Libertarian by Kjella · · Score: 3, Interesting

      A public utility is quite good when what you want is service delivery, like power, water, sewage, renovation are quite well-defined services that don't really change much. We had a public telecom company here in Norway, it worked okay for delivering phone calls. But when customers wanted new technology like ISDN and ADSL the rollout was slow, the prices high and being a monopoly they had very little incentive to become more progressive or effective. Here in Norway the fiber rollout is a three-way race between telecom, cable and power companies and they've been quite aggressive since the first to cover a market usually don't leave enough for a runner up. Right now the market share of fiber is 28% and rising quick.

      It is a challenge that the competition post-fiber is almost non-existant and open to gouging, but right now I wouldn't mess with this business model. There has been talk about forced opening of content services, like we had on phone lines. Basically that the company must lease the fiber line to others so they can deliver TV, Internet etc. but we're not there yet. I think the trend of Netflix etc. in practice will get there ahead of any regulation anyway. And I suspect we'll see more subsidies for rural areas, already we have quite a few public incentives to speed up the roll-out. Maybe once we hit 70-80% coverage we'd go back to having a public utility, but today? I think it'd just grind everything to a halt.

      --
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