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Whistleblower: NSA Is So Overwhelmed With Data, It's No Longer Effective (zdnet.com)

An anonymous reader cites ZDNet's Zack Whittaker report: William Binney, a former NSA official who spent more than three decades at the agency, said the US government's mass surveillance programs have become so engorged with data that they are no longer effective, losing vital intelligence in the fray. That, he said, can -- and has -- led to terrorist attacks succeeding. Binney said that an analyst today can run one simple query across the NSA's various databases, only to become immediately overloaded with information. With about four billion people -- around two-thirds of the world's population -- under the NSA and partner agencies' watchful eyes, according to his estimates, there is too much data being collected. Perhaps that's one of the reasons why NSA wants to dump the phone records it gathered over the past 14 years.

118 of 209 comments (clear)

  1. T.S.Eliot called it! by Tim+the+Gecko · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "Where is the Life we have lost in living?

    Where is the wisdom we have lost in knowledge?

    Where is the knowledge we have lost in information?"

  2. Old news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    This is named infoxication and is known for decades.

  3. Search Tools by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Sounds to me like their search and filtering capabilities are the problem, not the amount of data available.

    1. Re:Search Tools by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      False positives, false negatives.

      If you have a correlation that gives an impossibly good 1% false positive rate and 1% false negative rate, you can expect that 1% of the subjects you are looking for will be overlooked and 1% of those who you are not concerned with will match. So, let's apply that to the current nuisance.
      1% false negative: for every 100 people with hostile intent, 1 will slip through the net and either bomb something or be stopped by civilians.
      1% false positive: for every 100 people without hostile intent, 1 will hit the flags anyway.
      With a data set of roughly 4 billion people, and an expected upper bound on hostile actors measured in hundreds of thousands, there will be roughly 100 false positives for every true positive. (*/4, so about 25 to 400 false matches for every valid one)

      If the real threat is smaller (numerically, not necessarily in regard to potential destructive ability), then the math just gets worse.

    2. Re:Search Tools by MightyMartian · · Score: 2

      The problem isn't merely the volume of data. After all, LHC produces terabytes of data with each run. The problem is one of volume and variety. Imagine tracking every phone call made in the US, out of the US and into the US. We're talking about everything from calls to working spouses to pick up bread on the way home to ordering of products to sex chat calls and thousands of other topics. Filtering and searching those calls and the metadata surrounding them would be a monumental job of incredible complexity, with a high risk of false positives. Those false positives are what are going to kill filtering.

      Having some experience with spam filters, I can see, at least in some limited way, how incredible difficult it would be trying to determine if any given call should be flagged for investigation. Those false positives are just going to swamp any filter unless the filter is made less discriminatory, and when you do that, you will then risk suspicious calls escaping the net.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    3. Re:Search Tools by Aighearach · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Even with good search tools, signal to noise ratio is still important.

      Excess data with no correlation to the problems NSA is trying to solve (without getting into a debate over what those are) is simply noise.

    4. Re:Search Tools by burtosis · · Score: 1

      While it is difficult, the article addresses information 10 years out of date. With enough computational power and progress in algorithms this will likely become less and less of an issue. Also it is trivial to cut away data you may not be interested in once you actually have some focus rather than treating it as a black box pre-crime device. An example is the phone data - while it may be impractical to speech to text every call over the last 14 years and use it to determine future attacks, having a pool of known terrorists and using the contact metadata going back that entire time may be extremely useful and very simple (by comparison) to piece together working relationships.

    5. Re:Search Tools by paiute · · Score: 2

      having a pool of known terrorists

      If we know who they are, why do we need all that data too?

      --
      If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
    6. Re:Search Tools by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      You have a number of assumptions, the worst of which is symmetric false reports (1% and 1%). The more likely scenario, which is also tunable (gets better with more data) is that it is asymmetric in nature, and thus the conclusion is not only inaccurate but terribly so.

      It would have been MUCH better for you to not assume anything, and give general impressions of how the numbers might work. And 1% is way to high. You're more likely to see numbers in the "per 100,000" range (.000001 vs .01000), which is 1000 times different.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    7. Re:Search Tools by burtosis · · Score: 1

      having a pool of known terrorists

      If we know who they are, why do we need all that data too?

      To find many more of them, any private or corporate or state supporters, and all associated people including family.

    8. Re:Search Tools by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      Even with good search tools, signal to noise ratio is still important.

      The signal to noise ratio doesn't change when you merely use less data. The whole point of good search tools is to extract the signal from the data, and filter out the noise. If you believe that "less data, but better data" is the answer, then you should also believe that whatever algorithm you use to decide which data are "better" during the collection phase, can also be used to filter the existing data during the analysis. So collecting less data would not help.

      The NSA may be wasting resources by collecting too much data, but TFA doesn't make a very good argument for that. Much of what the NSA collects is not used to predict, but to retroactively analyse events, so the perps can be identified.

    9. Re:Search Tools by Aighearach · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The signal to noise ratio doesn't change when you merely use less data.

      False. Your statement is not true by default; it requires all the data to be known to be of equal quality.

      Any time that some data is more strongly correlated than others, your noise is going to go down when you throw out the lower quality data.

      Don't wave your hands, think it through and make a logical, reasoned argument.

    10. Re:Search Tools by TheCarp · · Score: 1

      Of course there is a question of what do you count as a "false positive". Every time you make someone toss a box cutter in the trash where you wouldn't have before. Every time you arrest somebody where you would have let it slide before, every time one of those people wasn't a terrorist, that is a false positive. Or at the very least a side effect.

      --
      "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
    11. Re:Search Tools by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 1

      Well, I probably contributed in some small way when talking with my brother on the phone a few nights ago. We were talking about the Apple case, NSA surveillance, etc, and I mentioned how just by saying "allahu akbar!" we'd probably set off a flag and get our conversation flagged for automatic transcription and further analysis.

      --
      Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
    12. Re:Search Tools by Tokolosh · · Score: 1

      If only they had more money, they could solve the problem.

      --
      Prove anything by multiplying Huge Number times Tiny Number
    13. Re:Search Tools by Jason+Levine · · Score: 1

      Oh, great. Now you've flagged this story in the NSA results as well as everyone commenting on it!

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
    14. Re:Search Tools by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 2

      your noise is going to go down when you throw out the lower quality data.

      Except that if you have an algorithm for recognizing "lower quality data" then you can exclude that data from your search results. So it is not going to affect your results.

    15. Re:Search Tools by aldousd666 · · Score: 1

      Bayes FTW

      --
      Speak for yourself.
    16. Re:Search Tools by rtb61 · · Score: 2

      The problem is errant and false data. No amount or search or filtering can clear up a poisoned data base. Bad data creates false association and relationships, which means bad results are generated by all searches. You can not clean up bad data without it also taking out good data, you can not get good data without also getting flooded out by bad data. If fact the best defence against those deep total data acquisition system is to simply generate false data and allow those systems to flood themselves with it. Computers can for more readily generate false data than they can acquire, store and collate it and rejecting bad data means, that data must be actually analysed, each and every instance of it.

      So say the US government wants to track all potential Chinese espionage agents, simplest defence the government of China simply makes all Chinese citizens look like potential espionage agents (purposefully leaky data bases ie honey pots with false data, everywhere, it's just a cheap box but it can contain data that will cost millions of dollars to analyse) and the US government is back to square 1.

      The sheer volume of bullshit data that computers can generate is basically infinite, just look at main stream media News, what a joke. Of course people are learning to reject it all based upon the source, basically just ignore it, especially when espionage agents produce it against their own citizens (US main stream media, what a mess). In the espionage world this is much more complex because of course false data is used to hide real data and hence you get bogged down in too much data. Sort of like the bullshit espionage agents try to spread in main stream media, of course unlike the spy vs spy sources, we can just turn around and ignore that entire corrupted source and go elsewhere (So main stream news is corrupted shite and main stream NGOs are corrupted shite, so just ignore them and let them go belly up full of US/UK espionage agents, investors will not be impressed).

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    17. Re:Search Tools by jtayon · · Score: 1

      Big data technology suffer the same issue.

      Privacy concerns solve themselves with time.

  4. What if it was streamable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    What if there was a way to mark the data in a stream, not storing it permanently but being able to refer to the markers during a specific period of relevance?

  5. Oh but it is effective... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    ... they want a google database of peoples data/chats/records and behavior they can use against them at any time for political purposes.

    Our brains are much worse at reality and thinking than thought.
    Science on reasoning:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYmi0DLzBdQ

    The (mass surveillance) by the NSA and abuse by law enforcement is just more part and parcel of state suppression of dissent against corporate interests. They're worried that the more people are going to wake up and corporate centers like the US and canada may be among those who also awaken. See this vid with Zbigniew Brzezinski, former United States National Security Advisor.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7ZyJw_cHJY

    Brezinski at a press conference

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWTIZBCQ79g

    Major powers, and imposing control over the awakened masses.

    https://youtu.be/4usbR_kKCDs?t=397/a>

    Important:

    Greece coup

    1. Re:Oh but it is effective... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You need the final step. You're close. Try

      they want a google database that they claim has peoples data/chats/records and behavior they can use against them at any time for political purposes

      Remember, for national security purposes they will never show a single piece of evidence from this database. Instead, they intend to use the EXISTENCE of this database against people. "I have here in my database a list of 205 terrorists!" (Parallels are multiple: McCarthy refused to reveal any source of his list, and by the time of the Tydings hearings the list had shrunk substantially) The effectiveness of this plan requires that the public believe that "the database" knows all and sees all.

  6. oh boy, time to make money by iggymanz · · Score: 1

    Let's give them the "Big Data!" and "Analytics!" spiel that all the marketing wanks are cramming down our throats. Sounds bites and spending huge bucks on them is the solution!

    1. Re:oh boy, time to make money by iggymanz · · Score: 1

      you make an assertion without a shred of proof and without knowledge of either the structures of the data nor the tools they currently use on it. are you a Big Data marketing wank? you reason like one.

  7. Wait a minute... by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Is this guy saying that the NSA used to be effective? I do remember them doing good work back when they emphasized playing defense; and they have probably assisted with some really juicy targeted attacks on specific people of interest(whether criminals or well-placed figures in governments we are interested in getting to know better); but has the Total Information Awareness/dragnet-all-the-data stuff ever shown the slightest evidence of providing useful data?

    1. Re:Wait a minute... by Megol · · Score: 1

      Who knows? Not us, it's classified. It may have helped much in whatever NSA is targeted to or have been totally useless. I don't think that question is that interesting though, the important question is what are the costs of the program. And I'm not talking money - trust, morality and freedoms are worth much more.

    2. Re:Wait a minute... by F.Ultra · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I actually think that we do know because if they (either NSA och the CIA) would ever have found anything it would have been posted all over the media. To really win over the population and get even more funds all they need is that one true case, that they haven't announced that tells me that they have none to show and instead they play the "if only we could tell you what we know" card.

    3. Re:Wait a minute... by gweihir · · Score: 1

      At least not against terrorism. These people would have turned up in the legal system if caught. AFAIK no actual terrorist act has ever been prevented by the NSA and there would at least be a few were we know about if they were actually effective in that area. On the other hand, their shoddy targeting information for state-sponsored murder has probably created a few terrorists.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    4. Re:Wait a minute... by gweihir · · Score: 1

      But hey, their budgets and staff count went up so it's a win, right?

      If they do not regard themselves as part of the society they help destroy, sure.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  8. Total lie by axewolf · · Score: 5, Interesting

    What are we supposed to think from this? That we need to pour more money into mass surveillance to aid data analysis to keep us safe? This is a obvious example of the ongoing damage control. All of the recent stories concerning the NSA seem to be dancing around the main point: our government has been proven to steal information from all of us. They have been monitoring and recording all electronic communications for years. This isn't just a breach of trust. This is a complete annihilation of trust for anyone who has the ability to reason. Nothing anyone says who is or was involved with intelligence is credible. The conclusion that must be drawn to preserve freedom is that the government is an mortal enemy to the vast majority of people. This bitter idea needs to be made palatable to everyone. Only then can reform be enacted.

  9. Flood Them Until They Drown. by zenlessyank · · Score: 2

    They need moar datas. Everybody call up someone in a country we don't like and ask them how their cat is doing. Ask for tech support from China for the missing buttons on that shirt you just bought from Wal-Mart. Find out when the lights change at an intersection in some obscure town.

    1. Re:Flood Them Until They Drown. by Jason+Levine · · Score: 2

      Step 1: Develop open-source AI that can carry on rudimentary conversations - occasionally peppering in some words like "bomb" or "ISIS" to trigger NSA searches.
      Step 2: Have people register multiple VoIP accounts to run the AIs on.
      Step 3. AIs call each other, have conversations, and hang up to call the next AI. (This step repeats ad infinitum.)
      Step 4. Sit back and watch as the NSA's servers burst from too much data.

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
  10. DUH! by Lumpy · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The NSA and FBI etc are trivial to thwart.. I did it to my ex NSA professor at college.

    I bet him a solid 4.0 in his class that I could get an encrypted message past him and he would not be able to detect it. He agreed.

    I sent him 10 files 1 had a message that I encrypted. the other 9 had the contents of /dev/random encrypted into them that matched the same bit length message all encryption blocks were 100% identical in size.

    I won and was told I cheated.... I asked him if Spies follow rules and get in trouble if they cheat....

    --
    Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    1. Re:DUH! by Jason+Levine · · Score: 1

      Interesting. Applying this example in a completely different area, I've said that we might not recognize signals from alien life because they would be using alien encryption/compression/protocols that might be indistinguishable from random "data." If your professor couldn't tell which of the 10 human encoded files had real data and what it was, what's the chance of us telling that some signal is actually an alien's video file in an alien codec using an alien compression/encryption algorithm?

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
    2. Re:DUH! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      I bet him a solid 4.0 in his class... He agreed.

      I'll take 5 mod points in "Things that didn't happen." Alex.

    3. Re:DUH! by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      Absolutely, spread spectrum communication is very hard to detect, and we are currently only looking for intentional beacons on a specific frequency based on a scientific guess.

      Also looking for signals not beamed into space at insane power levels is pretty much impossible for us. even if a standard 100,000 watt omnidirectional TV transmitter was only 1 light year away we would never be able to detect it's signal because of the inverse square law will put the signal below the background noise well before it got here.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      Once you do the math even on a 1 million watt transmitter, it becomes obvious why we can't hear any alien routine communications. an alien race 100 lightyears away would need to tightly beam the signal directly at us with such immense power that it would be a large government funded project.

      And that assumes a simple Carrier wave transmission. if aliens are anywhere advanced as we are, there are communication modes that are difficult to detect even when you are near them because of how wide of a spectrum they use or they hop around in frequency so fast.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    4. Re:DUH! by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

      I had thought it would be obvious to use deltas from true randomness to check whether something had info in it, but I don't think that's what they do.

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
  11. Sun Tzu had it right 3000 years ago by BoRegardless · · Score: 1

    He wanted plenty of spies! They were far cheaper than tons of warriors and all their food supplies and equipment.

    1. Re:Sun Tzu had it right 3000 years ago by Gryle · · Score: 1

      Generals throughout the years have understood the effectiveness of good intelligence. George Washington is said to have remarked "I do not fear the enemy; I fear his spies" based on effectiveness of his own spies, the Culper Ring.

      --
      Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not entirely sure about the universe - Einstein
  12. Shhhh! Everyone stop typing so much! by Narcocide · · Score: 5, Funny

    You insensitive clods! The NSA is having trouble keeping up with all your jibber-jabber!

  13. Did you hear about that in your country ? by BESTouff · · Score: 1

    I heard the very same news on the radio today; except it was in France and was about French intel service. Either it's a coincidence, or it's yet another press release begging for more power for intel services, around the world.

    1. Re:Did you hear about that in your country ? by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      They can't exactly delete it before they get in trouble for having it unless they get the others who have it to delete it also. ;) Just my one conspiracy angle on this.

  14. William Binney? That was 15 year ago by Trachman · · Score: 1

    Unless you are living in the cave, you should have noticed never ending AI advertisment from IBM: Hi, my name is Watson!

    Reality, is that it does not take Binney to say that having too much information is counterproductive. Thus be assured, that military versions of AI, are continuously are poring and monitoring through the dossier files, currently maintained as relationship databases.

    You can be assured that there is an automated never-ending surveilance and the code, the AI, the algorithms will get better over the time.

    Human life is so digitized, that pretty much everything can be used to infer necessary conclusions.

    Get this: information gathering organizations NEVER delete anything.

    1. Re:William Binney? That was 15 year ago by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      Not even AIs are going to be able to overcome the nature of false positives. Even if you get them to the same discriminatory level a human filter can have, and presuming they're operating at millions of times the speed of any human filter, you still have to deal with the fact that the intrinsic nature of the data itself makes false positives inevitable.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    2. Re:William Binney? That was 15 year ago by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      Newsflash, you don't have to live in a cave to not watch TV advertising. Wow, talk about "living in a cave." You think everybody does things the same as you!

      5% of American households don't even have a TV; up from 1% 10 years ago. Of those who have a TV, many only watch public television, or only watch during 1 sport season.

      Many more use time-shifting devices that automatically skip ads.

      I've certainly never seen the ad. And I don't live in a cave; only rich people can afford properties with caves. Good luck finding a cave to live in for less than seven figures.

  15. Big Brother is Acting by cloud.pt · · Score: 1

    If an analyst is overwhelmed with data by querying any single person's name, I imagine it won't be difficult to charge anybody with anything at all just because "DATA". Talk about abuse of power and authoritarian regimes - pick a person, pick a crime, pick circumstantial evidence from the big bad pool of "content", as Snowden puts it, and there you have it: reasonable suspicion à la carte.

  16. 10 years as a civilian? by xanthines-R-yummy · · Score: 4, Interesting

    How does he know that the NSA hasn't hired more informaticists in the past 10 years? If I read TFA correctly, he's been out for over a decade. I kind of doubt he's privy to top secret (or higher) information like that, although civilians are granted security clearances too sometimes.

    I'm not saying he's wrong, I'm just not clear on HOW he knows what he's saying is accurate. Just so you know, I'm not fan of Patriot Act or the NSA's "hoovering" of data, meta or otherwise.

    1. Re:10 years as a civilian? by OpinOnion · · Score: 1

      If the programs worked, we'd be thwarting terror plots more than getting hit by them.. yet that is not what is happening. The NSA does not really have access to the level of info they'd really need and they don't have the coding or AI to pull of quantifying the data they do have. Since the NSA has failed for over a decade now to make these programs do anything useful it's pretty safe to say they don't know how to use the data or they aren't getting the right data. You don't need to be an insider to know that. .and as you say.. claiming to know that as an insider really means nothing anyway. For that matter we should not take Snowden's claims entirely seriously because he didn't have the clearance to all the data he would need to understand the programs he has supposedly exposed. He only has pieces of data and almost none of it was real world data... such as proof of damaging illegal use of the NSA program. Snowden primarly exposed potential for abuse, not much actual abuse, and that matters a great deal as far as getting people to really care about the NSA programs. Half of so of Americans simply don't care enough to fight the program and perhaps it makes them feel safer. That's a big problem when it comes to reform. Pretty obvious in any case as you horde info like that you wind up with 99% of that info be 100% worthless.

    2. Re:10 years as a civilian? by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      to be fair, the NSA has never been particularly effective at stopping terrorist attacks, so the conclusion is hardly surprising.....

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    3. Re:10 years as a civilian? by Frosty+Piss · · Score: 1

      If the programs worked, we'd be thwarting terror plots more than getting hit by them.. yet that is not what is happening.

      How do you know? The FBI arrests plotters and ISIL recruits all the time. And simply because they have not publically disclosed "big plots" that they have broken up doesn't mean that such things haven't happened.

      --
      If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
    4. Re:10 years as a civilian? by entropy01 · · Score: 2

      He was in for 30 years prior. I'm sure he made some friends and still has contact with a few of them on the inside. They want to get the message out, they tell him, he tells us.

    5. Re:10 years as a civilian? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      How do you know? The FBI arrests plotters and ISIL recruits all the time.

      Mostly plotters and ISIS recruits of the FBI's own making. They find a guy who's a bit mentally unstable, befriend him, then harass him for months on end encouraging him to do something illegal. When they finally push him over the edge and he agrees, they supply him with fake bomb parts or some similar nonsense, then bust him and parade him all over the media as some kind of major FBI success story. Gotta justify the budget.

    6. Re:10 years as a civilian? by tinkerton · · Score: 1

      It's not a secret the NSA has been hiring more informaticists. He's saying you're not going to fix this with more informaticists, and while he's on the outside the little data he's got since (including from unofficial contacts of which there are a lot) confirms his opinion and his warnings. The article is a year old but his opinion hasn't changed the last 15 years. Data gathering should be targeted, not trying to do a wide sweep.Targeted spying is much more effective, it's more legal and it's more moral. The general datamining approach is powerful from a forensic point of view but its predictive power is minimal. If you look at the Boston bombing you don't need inside info to deduce this. I think he's talking a lot of sense , while the assumption that the NSA secretly is much better than that is a pretty weak one. Also the claim that he doesn't know what he's talking about because he's out of the loop has been peddled since the start. It's bullshit. That the people on the inside are out of the loop, that I can see. They're too busy datacrunching to see the big picture. A guy from inside the NSA can hardly talk shop with Snowden, but Binney can.

      The CIA has similar problems btw. The complaint that you need more feet on the ground instead of hightech has been around for a long time now.

    7. Re:10 years as a civilian? by F.Ultra · · Score: 2

      So publicity is only for the small plots and not the big ones? Why?

    8. Re:10 years as a civilian? by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Since for the purpose of press exposure they've disclosed big plots that were actually sting operations fishing for the gullible I suspect we would have heard a lot each time they found something real.

  17. Pretty much everyone in the trade knew that by Schmorgluck · · Score: 2

    Seriously, it's nice that the NSA comes out as overwhelmed with data it can't exploit (although, as some have already pointed out, that's not particularly new - see 9/11 for an example too obvious to pass), but every internal security agency in the West has been saying so for years (or rather, members of said organizations complained about it anonymously or through their unions). Intelligence requires data, but mass collection of data is of dubious help when the people in charge of examining it is already understaffed for exploiting classically collected data.

    --
    There's nothing like $HOME
    1. Re:Pretty much everyone in the trade knew that by Whorhay · · Score: 1

      9/11 was not an example of not being able to spot valuable information hidden among mountains of chaff. The CIA was actively investigating some of the conspirators prior to 9/11. The CIA managers in charge of that investigation weren't interested in sharing any of the glory from busting the conspirators and so when they entered the USA didn't inform the FBI. The CIA wasn't aware what the plan was but hoped that they'd be leaving the USA again soon so they could continue investigating them and eventually bust them for something worth a promotion. There was actually an FBI agent on loan or something to the CIA team who wanted to inform his agency of the conspirators US entry but he was threatened with having his career ruined. PBS's Frontline did a very good episode about the whole thing years and years ago that should be available for free on their site.

      Homeland Security is supposed to be the solution to this kind of crap by making one agency that can readily handle investigations that cross into other agencies domains. A cheaper and simpler solution would probably have been to separate some heads from bodies, metaphorically speaking, and strengthening policy and punishments around not informing other agencies when something crosses domains.

    2. Re:Pretty much everyone in the trade knew that by Ormy · · Score: 1

      ...And the whole thing was eerily predicted in the 1998 film 'siege'.

    3. Re:Pretty much everyone in the trade knew that by Schmorgluck · · Score: 1

      My point was that the CIA had pointers (including some provided by allies), while the NSA was in the dark. I won't comment of what you say about what they did with said informations. It doesn't match what I remember reading on the subject, but I'm not very sure of my sources.

      --
      There's nothing like $HOME
    4. Re:Pretty much everyone in the trade knew that by Citizen+of+Earth · · Score: 1

      They should give Harold Finch a call.

  18. Re:Don't conflate those things by kheldan · · Score: 5, Insightful

    How about YOU shut the fuck up? You're no better than a tinfoil hat-wearing conspiracy theorist; you represent the other end of the same gods-be-damned scale, and as such is equally elligible to be ignored.

    The real problem? An ages-old human tendency: Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Knowledge is power. Also, power seeks more power. These are no-brainers; no tinfoil hat required; everyone knows this. The NSA (and pretty much every other 'intellgence' organization) always wants more, more, more information, even if they can't use it -- but still they want more. They're like a little kid who discovered sugary candy; it's up to the parents to tell them no. Here in the U.S., citizens must play the role of Parents -- but we haven't been doing our job. The NSA/CIA/FBI/{insert government agency here} has been holding their breath until they turn blue, pitching fits, and throwing their dinner on the floor (read as: doing everything and anything they can to keep us in a constant state of terror) so we'll just give them the candy they want (read as: ability to surveil anyone and everyone) to keep them quiet. What they need at this point is a good spanking on their spoiled little bottoms (read as: U.S. citizens speak the hell up to their representatives and tell them in no uncertain terms that mass surveillance has to stop!) and send them to their room for a good long spell without dessert (no more data for you!). It needed to be done years ago but we've been neglectful, overly-permissive parents. Time to fix that!

    --
    Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
  19. Re:Total B.S. by GuB-42 · · Score: 1

    This is total B.S. With that facility in Utah and who knows where else... there is an info orgy and they are loving it.

    Trouble is, they made an orgy and expect to get married.

  20. We already know this by OpinOnion · · Score: 1

    It's common knowledge if you bother to read.. these reports have been coming down the line for years and it's fully predictable that would happen. The main use of all this data always was a timemachine of sorta, not effective real time keyword based spying. The fact is we don't have programmers good enough to pull that off yet. It takes billions just to get a car to drive itself within fairly obvious present rules. The idea that you'd intelligently understand human behavior via relatively simple algorithms should be an obvious fail using today's technology. It's not that it's can't be done, it's just that nobody can do it yet and the NSA is not particularly ahead of the curve on much of anything other than secret warrants. NSA exploits have almost all come from the wild and we've seen that they have near zero capcity to stop even the simplest terror plots, often run almost entirely in the open including posts on facebook. If the NSA's programs don't stop a terrorist scheme as simple and out in the open as the Boston Bombers, we know they aren't effective. Almost none of these attacks have used any sophisticated technology and the NSA has stopped almost no attacks. We know they cannot effectively parse that data, because if they could we would see the result as a reduction of plainly obvious militants operating domestically with no problem.. even while real people around them question or report them. So.. even with leads from real people the NSA and FBI generally cannot manage to arrest terrorists in the act or any significant crime.

  21. Re:Don't conflate those things by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    One world government does not automatically mean global authoritarian nightmare.

    Yes, it actually does. It also means that there would be no place to escape from such tyranny.

  22. Data Hoarders by Beerdood · · Score: 5, Funny

    Maybe the NSA could be convinced to do a special TV show appearance on Hoarders. Have some other agencies come together in an intervention to help 'em let go.

    DOJ: So NSA... we've got some recorded phone calls here from August 3rd, 2003 between a Darlene [redacted] and her grandson [redacted]
    NSA: Yes.. she's born in 1948, lives in Arlington, TX and her SSN is [redacted]. I remember when we first collected those calls.
    DOJ: Well then, we listened to this a few times, and it sounds like some fairly innocuous conversation. Nothing criminal whatsoever.
    NSA: Right
    DHS: So... do you think we can delete these calls then? I mean, there's no..
    NSA: NOOOOOO!! There could still be connections to terrorism in those calls... somehow! You never know what we might find on meta-data analysis
    DEA: Look... we've identified all the phone references with mentions of drugs, and made copies of those for investigations. We never use the rest of those recordings, and I'm the only one here that really uses those at all. Maybe we could just.. y'know.. delete...
    NSA: Don't touch that data! It's mine! I own it!

    --
    Global warming and other natural disasters are a direct effect of the shrinking number of pirates - Gospel of the FSM
  23. Re:Don't conflate those things by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I see, you want to say I'm no better than you. You're wrong. Power corrupts is a notion with anecdotal evidence. We point to examples of Hitler, Stalin, or Mao with such ease, as well as those who bend so easily to money, but what of presidents, prime ministers, legislators, governors, mayors, bosses, priest [who aren't fondling the little ones], and arguably the vast majority who do not overstep the bounds of their office?

    Admit it, you're just against government but also recognize that that view won't fly, so you speak of the extremities to fight any bit of it you can. If you were objective, you would recognize the utility of government on all levels, and work towards its betterment. You would speak of new policies, not spankings.

    We're not parents. We're the people. We are ultimately a part of the government, and yes, we're responsible for its conduct. So if you want to begin spanking someone, a mirror may help you with the effort.

  24. Re:Shhhh! Everyone stop typing so much! by Aighearach · · Score: 1

    If they figured out that being "liberal" or supporting Free Software is just political speech that they should ignore, that would help them pare it down a little. :)

    Tracking the Linux Journal readers alone probably costs them a lot of storage and search noise.

  25. Re:Don't conflate those things by DontHackMeBro · · Score: 1

    Maybe I am one of those rare specimens who don't want their children growing up in a world where we are all living in some kind of Soviet Russia redux.

  26. Wow... by MitchDev · · Score: 1

    The government propaganda machine is in overdrive trying to fool the citizens...

  27. Re:Don't conflate those things by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

    Here in the U.S., citizens must play the role of Parents

    Too many children turns everything into the Lord of the Flies. Which Is where I fear we are heading.

    --
    Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
  28. Re:It's pays to scarf it all up! by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 2

    either that or Chicago

    --
    Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
  29. Fish school by Dorianny · · Score: 1

    Big data is great when doing statistical analysis not so great for spear fishing

  30. Re:Total B.S. by mjm1231 · · Score: 1

    This is total B.S. With that facility in Utah and who knows where else... there is an info orgy and they are loving it.

    Trouble is, they made an orgy and expect to get married.

    Not a problem, they're in Utah.

    --
    Ideology: A tool used primarily to avoid the bother of thinking.
  31. Re:Don't conflate those things by TechyImmigrant · · Score: 2

    I don't think governments scale well. The larger the structure the less the possibility of oversight. Why is it that the Canadian government can get things done that the US can't? I suspect dunbar's number is the answer. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    Or just that it's a Parliamentary system, where the party with the majority chooses the leader and so the party and leader in power are actually in power.

    --
    I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
  32. Re:Don't conflate those things by MitchDev · · Score: 1

    " Power corrupts is a notion with anecdotal evidence." The actual saying is that "Absolute Power corrupts absolutely." Which is utter bullshit. If you have actual "Absolute Power" then you decide what is right and wrong, there is no "corruption" as no one can challenge you. Now the desire for more power on the other hand...

  33. Re:Don't conflate those things by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The reason the U.S. government can't get anything done these days is this Republican idea that Government isn't good for anything. This leads to putting people in charge of government agencies that don't believe that government can do anything. Think back to Heckofajob Brownie during hurricane Katrina. The guy had no emergency management experience and ended up running the worlds largest emergency management organization. This is pervasive through many agencies though and leads to a self fulfilling prophecy.

    We were able to effectively end childhood hunger in the 70s, we were able to create the national highway system, put a man on the moon, lots and lots of large projects that were ultimately very successful but now a large chunk of the country thinks we don't even need the IRS anymore. We have a Presidential candidate campaigning on that very idea. Cruz is probably equally as crazy as Trump but they represent a good solid chunk of the population.

    I hate how the conversation has been turned into Government should do everything versus nothing. That's why I like Bernie, he thinks Government could do more but recognizes that some things are better in private hands, he probably goes too far but when you think of it more as a direction instead of an overnight mandate things look a whole lot more sane. My health or my parent's health should not come down ensuring someone makes a profit for a hospital stay. Injecting money into health is counter productive, much the same way insurance is. Insurance companies should take our money and use it to invest, but they have people who's job it is to deny you your claim rather than figuring out how to fairly deal with a situation. So we pay care insurance for years and don't use our benefits, the moment we have a traffic accident we have to start paying more, or we have to hire a lawyer to make sure the insurance company actually provides the coverage they promised.

  34. Burner phones !!! by Tungbo · · Score: 2

    I've said this several years ago,  All this metadata collection is easily defeated when the culprits uses burner phone or sim cards.  That is exactly what they did in Brussels.   Just because one has a lot of data doesn't mean you can make sense of them.  Think of the Internet Search Engines before Google.  You get TONS of useless hits.  Google's result were better due to massive amount of other people's usage pattern.  Here the terror acts are so few, that they offer little to help train any software.  It is a very difficult problem that may not be solvable by Big Data.

    1. Re:Burner phones !!! by omnichad · · Score: 1

      All it takes is doing a few other logged activities at the same time you're carrying the powered-on burner phone and it's linked to you. That could be using any non-cash form of payment, driving home every day, or going to work/school.

    2. Re:Burner phones !!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Think of the Internet Search Engines before Google. You get TONS of useless hits.

      More to the point: I get tons of useless hits from Google.

      Granted, it's because it's 2016 and there's several metric fucktons more useless content than there was back in 1998. But that just adds to the point. The more shit you shovel, the more shit you have to sort, until it becomes a virtually impossible task and you're covered in shit.

    3. Re:Burner phones !!! by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Burner phones once monitored

      I think you're not quite up on the concept of a "burner phone".

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    4. Re:Burner phones !!! by radarskiy · · Score: 1

      "or you have to communicate the new information"

      You load the new numbers into the address book on the new sim card that you already have to put in the the new phones that you already have to hand out on a regular basis. The end users only need to know which contact name to use for which purpose.

  35. To Paraphrase Frank Zappa by sehlat · · Score: 2

    Data is not information.
    Information is not knowledge.
    Knowledge is not wisdom.

  36. Re:It's pays to scarf it all up! by Foobar+of+Borg · · Score: 2

    Like a trip to hell, one-way! Or Detroit!

    Which reminds me

  37. Re:Why say that? by xanthines-R-yummy · · Score: 1

    Just didn't want anyone to think I was some government counteragent!

  38. Re:Shhhh! Everyone stop typing so much! by Jason+Levine · · Score: 1

    I've been trying to be considerate to the NSA by just posting jibber and leaving out the jabber. Won't someone think of the NSA?

    --
    My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
  39. Re:Don't conflate those things by cfalcon · · Score: 1

    > Put simply, what the hell sort of problem do you have with some consistency in global law?

    I'll bet you anything you're not ok with the second amendment, and would want to eliminate it.

    People are different.
    Cultures are different.

  40. There's a Difference by SwashbucklingCowboy · · Score: 1

    between data and information.

  41. Re:Don't conflate those things by tnk1 · · Score: 2

    For some value of "working". Many of the objections to health care, for instance, aren't that we're going to immediately implode from free health care. It's that 50 years down the line, we'll have completely fucked it up. And there is plenty of evidence to show that this could happen.

    Add to that the observation that any entitlement that gets into place will become permanent because it will quickly create dependency among voters. What person near retirement age is going to vote to overhaul Social Security? They won't risk it. They want their promised retirement. Who will vote to overturn a mediocre single payer system or even reform it if the politicians have you convinced that reform will destroy your health care. No one would ever get elected who would do that.

    So yeah, it will work just long enough to create dependency. And that's why no one even wants to give it a chance. And I don't really blame them, because history has shown that it will become untouchable, even if in dire need of reform.

  42. Re:Don't conflate those things by tnk1 · · Score: 1

    Both size and homogeneity are critical factors in successful programs. Look at Canada or Denmark... or New Hampshire. Small populations, not very much actual diversity.

    They also don't have the same traditions as the US as a whole. I daresay, it has helped them in some ways, but I think some of this is also what allows us to be a leading country rather than a country content to fall into line. We have the ambition to do things, which makes us loud and brash, but also got us to the Moon.

    Mostly, I think it is the attitude that we'd rather do for ourselves, and not have it done for us, even if it makes us less content and lacking in certain creature comforts provided by a paternalistic state.

  43. Solution by originalGMC · · Score: 1

    They should add a research and development branch to create a new interface - merge data with consciousness, to speed up analyst intelligence gathering. Alternatively, they could open a pirate bay mirror and host all the data over bittorrent.

  44. Re:Don't conflate those things by BlueStrat · · Score: 2

    One world government does not automatically mean global authoritarian nightmare.

    Yes, it actually does. It also means that there would be no place to escape from such tyranny.

    But when people flee from tyranny, numbnuts like you don't want them in your country.

    smh

    Yes, because nearly-open borders have worked out so well recently in Belgium and France and other places in the EU.

    Only an irresponsible fool allows any random stranger off the street to enter their home with all their loved ones' lives and all their possessions at risk.

    smi (so many idiots)

    Strat

    --
    Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
  45. Inundated with so much data they can't process it by DidgetMaster · · Score: 1

    Now if we can just do that to all the scammers out there. Give them all so much bogus information that it takes them too much time/resources to figure out what is legit that they could use to scam someone.

  46. Lol by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Coming up.. Hoarders the NSA edition.

  47. Free The Data! Let the World See Itself For Once! by littlewink · · Score: 2

    This data should be released to the world for all to see along with search tools to suit.

    Sociologists and citizens alike could plumb the depths of human behavior for years and finally, for once, get a clear view of political, economical and social alliances in all their (formerly) clandestine glory. Some changes might even result.

  48. Re:I can hardly believe by AHuxley · · Score: 1

    The NSA and GCHQ are collecting all in the hope to replay any event and then find connecting digital hops 3 or 4 hops away from a well understood origin.
    Every call, funding, fax, digital account, chat room, file, propaganda support, contact and context.
    The problem with the NSA and GCHQ thinking on this is bulk collection just gets too much random data after event data thats junk.
    The other problem is acting on such collected information is letting the world know of such methods. Use the gathered results too many times to WIN in public and the world takes note as the information only had one origin - a computer, digital or voice print phone network.
    Tradecraft has well understood and evolved around the US and UK total fascination with voice calls, phone numbers, banking, phone, computer and networking since the 1960's.
    The huge tasking budgets that got sold to the political oversight meetings was the ability to listen to any senior Soviet official using an early cell phone in 1980's Moscow. That easy collection win was was projected into the 2010's and way beyond with ever growing teams of private sector consultants and gov workers.
    Everyone of interest would always carry a cell phone as a beacon, home computer with a consumer OS, use consumer VOIP, move digital files just as past generations had a phone, a fax, voice print, modem. Make lots of calls to other known or new phone numbers as generations of people always had....
    If digital collection is all a government has, the world will always be sold as been digital collection ready. Collect it all was the policy and way to ever more funding and gov and mil expansion. Contractors enjoyed up selling new methods and systems too with great over time.
    Now real world complexity sets in. How to track people with no cell phones?
    Ireland in the 1960-90's showed the UK just how to do that with expert teams, undercover vans, cars, trucks, sat, local clothing, haircuts suited to the area and the ability to blend in for days, weeks, months, years to track just one person.
    Thats the new skill sets needed, 6-10 people with skills trying to cover one person again. Gov teams have to blend into now very different inner city communities and have the ability to present a good reason for been in that insular area of a city everyday when openly confronted by a closed inner city community.
    Intelligent and efficient software is useless if the interesting people dont feel the need to make calls everyday or interact with expected digital networks under constant watch...
    Time to fund the mil and gov reconnaissance teams at the rate of 6 to 10 skilled team members per interesting person again. Thats some great new overtime for 24/7 eyes on work with a few million ++ people of interest.
    The other method is to turn every interesting person who has every had any contact with the legal system into the perfect informant. They have the life story, slang, backgrounds, homes, work places to collect it all :) Stories for cash, stories to stay free, stories to impress their gov contact. Get to every boss or company and try and have them collect information on all of their workers? The ratios of people needing constant watch is getting interesting.

    --
    Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
  49. Re:Don't conflate those things by Darinbob · · Score: 2

    Some of the most persistently corrupt governments are local governments. For example, in China the biggest corruption problems are with regional and local officials rather than with the central party. Larger governments get more scrutiny so that corruption is known publicly instead of being secret, local governments often don't even get local citizens to show up to vote and so end up being more easily controlled by special interests. Not saying that I'm all in favor of giant centralized governments but just that I don't think that increased size of government increases the amount of corruption.

    Another example, look at many current multinational organizations which seem to have relatively low effectiveness or power. The UN, Interpol, etc. The ones that do seem to have reasonable amount of power tend to be economic (World Bank).

  50. Re:Don't conflate those things by Darinbob · · Score: 1

    But we have so many examples of smaller government bodies having ineffectual oversight. In American everyone's paying attention to the presidential election but so few are worrying about who's getting elected to their local school board and city council. In California we've had several municipalities that went bankrupt or nearly so based upon just a few individuals controlling the money and investing it badly, or a few individuals making broad decisions about long term retirement benefits for city workers, all of those decisions having little public scrutiny, but at the California state level there are so many eyes within and without that it seems difficult to imagine those same problems occuring at that level, there's no single money manager with authority to screw it up. Meanwhile you can have a school board run for years as a virtual dictatorship.

  51. It's for later... by maharvey · · Score: 1

    It doesn't matter now. They'll store it until they have the capability and need to mine it properly. Data never really goes away, it will all come back to bite us later.... and if they do dump something, it's because its worthless and they probably have something juicier to replace it with. Then again, I'd be surprised if there isn't a backup somewhere. These things have a way of popping back up, long after you had forgotten about it.

    It also wouldn't surprise me if this is disinformation designed to put everyone at ease. "Don't worry, the government is too incompetent to do anything with the data. So it doesn't matter if they collect it."

    Never attribute to incompetence what can be explained by malice. We are told to believe the opposite, and it strokes the ego to point and laugh, but it may be foolish to do so. Be skeptical, assume the worst, and hope to be pleasantly surprised.

  52. Re:Don't conflate those things by Darinbob · · Score: 1

    I think politics insists on having a tug of war contest. So if you try to win your tug of war by standing in the center and holding the middle of the rope you'll never accomplish anything, so the game show contestants running for office stake out extremists positions by default. Many of them then lose sight of the fact that the vast majority of the country is in between those extremes. So Bernie is a good counterbalance to Cruz.

    The point of insurance, in the minds of insurance companies, is to create income for them. Monthly payments come in, zero payments go out. If there ever is a payment paid out then changes are made to prevent such future mistakes. It's honestly their way of thinking. In graduate school we worked hard on our student council to get health care for all of us, lots of long hours setting up student elections for it so they could vote on whether or not they were willing to add the fee, and so forth. We win the election, we select our insurance provider, and things go great for a year. But one baby was born with a heart defect that year and the damn insurance company declares that we're too expensive and they dropped us, leaving us back at square one. We were grad students, overall that's a pretty safe bet on the actuarial tables I would think, but because they had to pay out they refused to take anymore bets. It's an evil industry.

  53. Re:Don't conflate those things by dbIII · · Score: 1

    Exactly - "small government" is where corruption usually happens. Some sort of oversight is needed if you don't want the people you voted for running off with the silver. If all you've got is local police and their boss is on the take what can you do?

  54. Re:Don't conflate those things by Darinbob · · Score: 2

    Today we think of corruption as something like having our decisions swayed by outside money, bribes, special interests, nepotism, etc. But the meaning of the word corruption is broader than the modern usage. Corruption is also the word used for decay and putrefaction. So absolute power metaphorically causes your ideals to decay, your morals to decay, and putrefaction of the soul.

  55. Re:Don't conflate those things by Darinbob · · Score: 1

    Welcome to Slashdot. Two drink minimum.

  56. Re:Don't conflate those things by jbengt · · Score: 2

    Wrong again. The actual quote, by Baron Acton, according to Wikipedia, is "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men."

  57. Re:Don't conflate those things by aldousd666 · · Score: 2

    Absolute power hasn't failed! It's never been tried!

    --
    Speak for yourself.
  58. Re:Don't conflate those things by MitchDev · · Score: 1

    But if you have true absolute power, you are GOD, YOU decide what is morally right and wrong, there is none to gainsay you, hence you cannot be corrupted.

  59. Re:Don't conflate those things by buck-yar · · Score: 1

    "My health or my parent's health should not come down ensuring someone makes a profit for a hospital stay"

    You could say a similar statement about a roof over your head, or food on your table.

    But as my father is a food producer, should he have to provide service to you for free? He's self employed so everything he makes as profit goes to putting food on the kitchen table (we were not rich growing up).

  60. Re:Don't conflate those things by arglebargle_xiv · · Score: 1

    We were able to effectively end childhood hunger in the 70s,

    ... by redefining it to food-insecure. Not necessarily the best example.

  61. Re:Don't conflate those things by david_thornley · · Score: 1

    The Republicans are the ones propagandizing that government doesn't work, and some of them are willing to do pretty much anything to prove it. Democrats are more trusting of government.

    I see that AC has not looked over Bernie's campaign site. In the Issues section, there's details on exactly how all of Bernie's changes would be paid for. It's reasonable to argue about this (and how good the changes would be, for that matter), but we need to give Bernie credit for making such an argument possible.

    --
    "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  62. Re:Don't conflate those things by david_thornley · · Score: 1

    Sure, you could say the same about food and shelter. The big differences are that they are usually predictable expenses. I know pretty much what my mortgage payment will be five years from now, so I can budget it. Medical costs are unpredictable. I can go years without incurring serious expenses, and then suddenly have to have treatment costing tens of thousands of dollars. (Been there, done that.)

    I assume your father would be happy to provide service in return for payment, and the UBI would give more people the ability to pay. The UBI would probably have increased your family income (it would probably decrease mine, but we've got plenty). Nobody's talking about requiring the provision of service for free, except for people who completely misunderstand for whatever reason.

    --
    "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  63. Re:Don't conflate those things by david_thornley · · Score: 1

    Sure it's ethics, which means that every individual will have to decide for themself. We have laws and a system to apply them, so an individual can't decide that something should be legal or illegal.

    --
    "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  64. While we're at it by vandamme · · Score: 1

    Can we just delete the Internet and start over? It's just full of useless crap.

  65. Re:Don't conflate those things by micahraleigh · · Score: 1

    Ethics is based on "Am I treating someone the way I want to be treated?".

    They can decide on that.

  66. Re:Don't conflate those things by tnk1 · · Score: 1

    Don't you see, it's the inability for folks like you to accept the occasional failure - and those who have vested interest in keeping things as they are, but they could be overcome without you - that keeps us from ever hoping to change anything, and not the entitlement types you speak of.

    No, the problem is that people like you only see one solution to a problem. It's the State or nothing. Nothing else works but the State, or the evil insurance companies may destroy us.

    I don't mind change, when I feel like someone has actually thought it through. I just see people who think that voting for higher taxes is equivalent to charity, and that government programs are the only possible or desirable solution for badly managed health care. "Change" and "progress" doesn't mean "the government does it for me," because it is clear that the government can suck at it as much as anyone else.

    And if you don't like the example of Social Security, let's look at actual government-run health care: the VA Hospitals. The government can't even operate a health care system with even a subset of the population successfully.

    Bear in mind, I don't think it is impossible for you to bring in someone to run a government health care system properly. At least for certain periods of time. What I am concerned about is that this system will not be able to be overturned when it goes bad because it becomes a political football. Honestly, I think we'd probably do better with our health care system if we let the programs and organizations fail once in awhile, but our health care system is based on doing everything we can to prop up whatever we have so politicians can pretend to "do something" when even they know things are fucked.

  67. Wanted by martinfb · · Score: 1

    IT data mining job opportunities. Established organization. Great pay and benefits. Must be willing and able to keep a secret.

    --


    Self-importance and self-indulgence is the root of ALL evil.
  68. Arrived?! by martinfb · · Score: 1

    Did the NSA make it to the end of the internet?

    --


    Self-importance and self-indulgence is the root of ALL evil.
  69. Re:Don't conflate those things by wyHunter · · Score: 1

    Oh yeah, I forgot.

  70. Big hay stack by MoarSauce123 · · Score: 1

    The NSA is looking for needles and all they did is employ warrantless wiretapping to increase the size of the hay stack making their own work more difficult. I have the impression that the NSA and many other three letter agencies run these useless programs solely for the sake of running the programs. It is a self-fulfilling activity solely for the reason of asking Congress for more power and more money, essentially wrestling away any control Congress should have. There is a fix for that: cut the budgets for the NSA, FBI, CIA and all the other dozens of security agencies in half. They refuse to cooperate due to turf fights and personal power trips of their top brass. Cutting funding drastically will force them to focus on those programs that produce results and sunset all the other waste. Would also be nice to charge back Bush/Cheney for their insane waste of tax payer money, they have enough dough put aside, but I doubt anyone dares to hold anyone in the administration or Congress personally responsible for utterly ruining the USA solely for personal gain.