About 40,000 Unionized Verizon Workers Walk Off the Job (reuters.com)

An anonymous reader quotes a report from Reuters: In one of the largest U.S. strikes in recent years, nearly 40,000 Verizon workers walked off the job on Wednesday after contract talks hit an impasse. The event got a boost as U.S. Democratic presidential hopeful Bernie Sanders joined them at a Brooklyn rally ahead of the New York primary next week. The strike was called by the Communications Workers of America (CWA) and the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers that jointly represent employees with such jobs as customer services representatives and network technicians in Verizon Communications Inc's traditional wireline phone operations. The strike could affect service in Verizon's Fios Internet, telephone and TV services businesses across several U.S. East Coast states, including New York, Massachusetts and Virginia. Verizon and the unions have been talking since last June over the company's plans to cut healthcare and pension-related benefits over a three-year period. The workers have been without a contract since its agreement expired in August. Issues include healthcare, offshoring call center jobs, temporary job relocations and pensions.

Comments

No problem

[Anonymous Coward]

Couldn't affect customer service in any way, it's impossible to do worse.

Re:No problem

[Bloody Bastard]

Be careful of what you ask for.

Re: No problem

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps, but we need more of this. People standing up to large corporate interests who just want to keep cutting jobs, pay, and benefits is a good thing. That so many working people are brainwashed to believe otherwise is a tragedy.

Corporations gain bargaining power by (allegedly) shareholders pooling capital. It's very hard to find someone who'll argue that corporations shouldn't act in their own interests. Why is it therefore wrong for labor to do the same? It isn't, and it's way past time for workers to figure that out.

We've all endured more injustices than what started the American Revolution in the first place--those injustices then being both government and corporate just like today (The Boston Tea Party was a revolt against corporate welfare, not against taxes. Go look it up.) Yet we can't even fathom actually doing something about it. This needs to change.

I wish these workers good luck. They're gonna need it with all the corporate media and paid shills everywhere about to be against them.

Re: No problem

[ShanghaiBill]

People standing up to large corporate interests who just want to keep cutting jobs, pay, and benefits is a good thing.

How is striking going to convince a corporation to stop offshoring and automating jobs? It seems to me that it will convince them to do more. Look at what UAW strikes did to Detroit.

Re: No problem

[Anonymous Coward]

How is striking going to convince a corporation to stop offshoring and automating jobs?

It won't.

But managing to elect a Trump or Bernie Sanders (or, as I suspect will happen in the coming years, a local city/state version of either) may limit or remove altogether the ability of anyone to automate or offshore anything, labour or capital. When the good times finally do end, corporations will ultimately have only themselves to blame.

Re: No problem

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh I hope they get what they want.

However, what they wanted was probably the best medical plan and retirement package I have ever seen. 100% full med/dental/vision and 100% full retirement which includes the full insurance package after 25 years. Plus a 6.75% raise over 2 years.

Neither side wanted to budge. The management was offering about 80% of that. Which is comparable to the rest of the company.

The root of the issue is management has refused to actually put money into managing the network they own. They are selling it off as fast as they can. They bought the rest of wireless from Vodaphone and then are selling off wireline to frontier. Not exactly sure what the thinking is here.

Re: No problem

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, car companies started manufacturing elsewhere, then figured out building a car across the world isn't actually that economical due to increased transport costs which are only going to increase over time.

Now you have other car companies coming to the midwest like Toyota and Nissan to build their cars closer to their markets. They actually pay a living wage and provide reasonable benefits so their workers don't feel the need to unionize. Imagine that, you treat your employees well and then they treat you well.

Re: No problem

[lorenlal]

The UAW strikes didn't cause the outflow of employment from Detroit. It was a consequence of NAFTA cheapening the import cost of goods made in Mexico.

Since it's really off topic, I'd prefer not debating the merits and problems of NAFTA here. Yes, union negotiating and poor management did contribute. But the union strikes weren't the single cause of that employment offshoring.

Re: No problem

[Anonymous Coward]

I work in one of there call centers. Most of the calls have been routed overseas, and then I support those agents via chat. Those overseas agents are the dumbest people I have ever talked to. They have more people taking calls outside the US than inside. So, unless you call in at least 10 times in a 7 day period, the chances of getting routed to someone that has a clue of what is going on is almost zero.

Re: No problem

[AthanasiusKircher]

How is striking going to convince a corporation to stop offshoring and automating jobs? It seems to me that it will convince them to do more.

Notice the groups mentioned in TFS, including an "Electrical Workers" union.

Verizon can't really "offshore" or "automate" electrical wire installations in houses or businesses, or electrical repairs that need to be tailored to a specific location.

Granted, some of the other striking workers may be in service applications that could theoretically be sent overseas, but as long as the workers who do actual work that is required to be physically located within the U.S. are standing in solidarity with the other workers, Verizon could be a heap of trouble without those folks.

Not every job can be offshored. Skilled trades that deal directly with customers' equipment at a physical location (electricians, plumbers, etc.) are harder to offshore than just about anything else... including management.

Re: No problem

[Anonymous Coward]

the root of the problem is that unionized workers are lazy shit bags that work in a business unit that is slowly dwindling away.
source: 2 yrs of having to deal with their bullshit.

I disagree. The problem is not the union workers. It is the whole VZ system.

The reason the business unit is fading away is the upper management has underfunded everything in wireline. I visited one plant where the furniture was from the 70/80s and equally nasty to show for it.

It was amazing frustrating to do *anything* in that company. Most projects that should take 3-6 months front to end take 2-3 years to do. That is with 0 union employees involved. I would regularly see projects canceled not because they were bad. But simply because someone else in the company wanted to do the exact same thing and then never deliver on it. Poor technical decisions made at upper levels based on something along the lines 'its always been done that way'.

The whole thing is being setup to be sold off to other phone companies leaving only VZW left.

source: 7 years as VZ wireline non union employee who no longer works there

Re: No problem

[nehumanuscrede]

IBEW = International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers

Many of the telecom sector employees are Union Members under IBEW. Those that aren't, are usually under CWA. ( Communication Workers of America )

Re: No problem

[nehumanuscrede]

Not all of them.

Certainly they exist, but can also be said of non-union employees as well. Besides, mgmt will be picking up the slack on the job while the strike continues :D

While folks may be quick to jump to conclusions, I would probably look at what's happened the past one or two contracts before going all judgemental on them.

If their contracts are anything like ours, they got a 1% raise each year for the last five years as well as watching their health care premiums triple over the life of the contract.

The sneaky thing my company is doing now is mixing the Unions together. Where part of the group is from Union X and another from Union Y. Makes for all sorts of good times when you find out they make more than you do while doing the exact same job.

I figure the company is doing this to negate Union negotiation leverage by nullifying the strike. If half of any given group is from another Union, then they are under a different contract. It is no coincidence that contracts for the different Unions are ofdset from one another to prevent too many folks from going out on Strike at once.

This way, if Union X goes on strike, Union Y is still there under contract doing the job. The company can weather a strike far more easily this way.

I've tried to point this out to Union officials, but it falls on deaf ears. So I gave up.

They'll figure it out after the company screws everyone over come next contract or two.

Re: No problem

[Dcnjoe60]

People standing up to large corporate interests who just want to keep cutting jobs, pay, and benefits is a good thing.

How is striking going to convince a corporation to stop offshoring and automating jobs? It seems to me that it will convince them to do more. Look at what UAW strikes did to Detroit.

If striking gets the message out and people agree with the strikers, then change is possible. The court of public opinion sways a lot of corporate action in America (and elsewhere). For instance, if benefits are part of one's total compensation, then these cuts are compensation cuts.

As a percentage, are all workers receiving the same cut in compensation from the clerk in the stock room to the top executives? Or are these cuts targeting a certain class of worker? If they are not across the board cuts, then one could argue that an injustice is taking place. One could further decide if one wants to support Verizon and its shareholders for perpetrating said injustice. If enough people agree, then change really can happen. If they don't then regardless the workers are SOL.

The biggest harm corporations have done to society is convince individuals that there is nothing they can do. A few people threw a bunch of tea in the bay a couple hundred years ago and the ultimate result was a new country. Corporate power is only an illusion if the people exercise their power.

Re: No problem

[jmd]

"Corporations gain bargaining power by (allegedly) shareholders pooling capital. It's very hard to find someone who'll argue that corporations shouldn't act in their own interests. Why is it therefore wrong for labor to do the same? It isn't, and it's way past time for workers to figure that out."

My father (a college professor not a union member) put it this way when I was in my late teens in the early 70s: If companies can have 10 people sit around a table and decide what to pay the worker, the worker should be able to have 10 people sit around a table and decide what they will work for.

Unions are a special interest group just like AARP, AAA, NRA, etc etc.

Re: No problem

[Billly Gates]

I dated a girl who used to be in a union before leaving. Shoot They get paid $35/hr and only require a HS diploma! They travel all over the US to install fiber which is an easy job that anyone immigrant can do for $10/hr happily.

How is that fair for those who went to college and get paid less, and for the shareholders, customers, and tax payers?

Not to sound like an ass but, it sounds like artificially inflated bump. If Verizon can get third party workers to come in for 50% less than what is the problem? Obviously, the market is not in sync with the union.

It is cool to bash corporations on here, but really why is it fair the workers do the same? Of course as slashdotters age I noticed this place being much more conservative than 2001 when mostly Computer Science students still in school used to post. I guess we all have jobs now.

Re: No problem

[Billly Gates]

No but an immigrant from across the border will happily do the job for $7/hr to install cable. It is not a highly skilled job and doesn't even hire a HS diploma. I dated a girl whose exhusband did this with 0 education and made $35/hr to run cable and splice. Not electrical work but easy with only 2 weeks of training.

Re: No problem

[Billly Gates]

"Corporations gain bargaining power by (allegedly) shareholders pooling capital. It's very hard to find someone who'll argue that corporations shouldn't act in their own interests. Why is it therefore wrong for labor to do the same? It isn't, and it's way past time for workers to figure that out."

My father (a college professor not a union member) put it this way when I was in my late teens in the early 70s: If companies can have 10 people sit around a table and decide what to pay the worker, the worker should be able to have 10 people sit around a table and decide what they will work for.

Unions are a special interest group just like AARP, AAA, NRA, etc etc.

But here is the catch. Let's say those guys in suits decided to pay you $10/hr? What would happen? More than likely you would quit and the position would be unfilled. That is called supply and demand.

As we found out with illegal immigration and outsourcing the free market will always find a way. If corporations get too abusively all the top talent will work for smaller competitiors leaving the big boys in the dust. If workers demand $35 an hour to lay a cable or run a fiber line then do not be surprised if they find a 3rd party to do it as that is not skilled for half the price?

If you feel this is unjust for the workers then why is it not unjust when the employer gets screwed? The free market balances it out well and rewards those who take the harder jobs with more skill and are willing to work more hours.

Re: No problem

[TheSync]

The average annual percent change, 1987-2014, of productivity of US motor vehicle manufacturing workers is 3.6%. So whichever workers are still left are doing a better job!

Re: No problem

[Alien among you]

Let me know when a guy in India can fix the lines outside your house on the phone.

Well the guy from India can make it to my house *faster* than the US based employee. "Please stand by, we will be there between 8 am and 5 pm.."

Re: No problem

[TheRaven64]

They're also employing a lot fewer people. One of the problems that cities that relied on various forms of manufacturing have seen is that greater automation means fewer employees per factory. It's then also easier for the company to pay them well, because labour is a far smaller proportion of their total costs. When a factory is employing 10,000 people to manually assemble whatever it's producing, a 5% pay increase is a huge cut of their profits and may be enough to push them into the red. When they're paying 100-1000 people to manage, maintain, and repair automated assembly lines, a 10-20% pay increase has a far smaller effect on the balance sheet. The 9,000 other people still need to make a living somehow though.

Re: No problem

[RabidReindeer]

Oh come on now. Your call is very important to us. Please stay on the line for the next available representative.

Re: No problem

[RabidReindeer]

But here is the catch. Let's say those guys in suits decided to pay you $10/hr? What would happen? More than likely you would quit and the position would be unfilled. That is called supply and demand.

Throughout most of history, however, that hasn't been the case. If you didn't want to work for $10/hr, they'd be able to find someone else who did. The Market only works when everyone has equal power to bargain. An individual who's got to feed the family this week has no leverage to speak of when facing a corporatin that can afford to sit on its much larger (capitalized) assets and wait for them to starve.

When you get right down to it, a union is basically just a counter-corporation designed to turn the asymmetry around in favor of the workers.

Re: No problem

[RabidReindeer]

The world is full of artificially inflated bumps. Just look at executive salaries over the last 3 decades. Do they really work 200x as many hours as anyone else? Do they have Cosmic Wisdom that no one else has? Has their productivity gone up multi-fold over the last 20 years like line-level workers (who are making in purchasing terms less than they did when they were less productive)?

No, but they have particularly effective union - the Good Old Boys Network.

There is no practical reason why we cannot outsource the executive functions to New Delhi and pay them 7 grand a year. We don't do it because they have an "in" with the directors that line-level workers don't. They pay their Union Dues in quid-pro-quo instead of formal paycheck deductions.

Re: No problem

[IamTheRealMike]

Hmm. Isn't that two sides of the same coin? Mexican imports were cheaper ... partly because the UAW ensured costs were high, even at the expense of the long term health of the industry?

Sure, unions weren't the only factor in what happened to Detroit, but putting the blame squarely on el Mexicans seems rather Trump-like.

Re: No problem

[KozmoStevnNaut]

Unionizing is still a good idea, even if your pay and benefits are good. A union is also a social construct that increases solidarity and loyalty. Both towards each other, but actually towards the company as well. And if/when the company decides to try screwing over the workers again for short term profits, they will have a stronger voice to oppose destructive changes.

Re: No problem

[silentcoder]

If a corporation is a bunch of shareholders pooling their resources to make more money out of a business - then unions are a bunch of small businesses merging to make more money selling their product (labour) in bulk.

And like any other corporation - the labour-selling corporation has a duty and obligation to it's shareholders (who happen to also be the providers of the service it sells to other companies) to maximize profit. That means, for starters, not selling the service for less than it costs to produce.

If the price you can earn for a job is less than the cost of living - then that is, by itself, proof of a market failure. It means that the market is no longer willing to pay for the product more than the minimum cost of producing it. When the product is, coincidentally, the only one that the vast majority of people will ever be able to sell - your entire society just got fucked.

Re: No problem

[Salgak1]

All good things can be taken too far. The example of Hostess Brands is instructive. When a Union pushes far beyond the optimum point, it provides powerful incentives to increase automation.

Similar effects are starting to be seen in restaurants in response to pushes for a $15.00 minimum wage. Ordering via tablet or kiosk is on the rise, and there are indicators that automated cook-stations are in development. The Momentum Machines automated burger line and similar other machines have been out there for years. Between development and production costs dropping over time, due to previously sunk costs, and rising labor costs, conversion to automation will eventually occur there, and likely sooner than later. . .

Re: No problem

[KozmoStevnNaut]

I agree that any power can be abused, and that the US unions in particular have a lot of baggage. But we are in a period of time that is very employer-friendly, due to the influences of corporate lobbying and influence. The only realistic way to push back is unionization and worker solidarity.

Automation of tasks and the gradual phasing out of manual tasks has been going on since the industrial revolution, and shows no signs of slowing down. As we increasingly delegate physically demanding tasks to robots and automated systems, efficiency is greatly increased, and the overall demanded workload on humans should be proportionally reduced. In an ideal society, this increased efficiency and reduced overall workload should mean that everyone could work less while maintaining or even increasing their standard of living.

Instead, the majority of the results of this increased automation are sequestered in the pockets of the wealthy few, put in tax shelters and deliberately kept from stimulating the economy. While they amass wealth, a desperate underclass is created, sedated by mindless reality TV and The American Dream that they are actually just temporarily embarrassed millionaires, and that they'll make it big any day know if they just keep their heads down and work as hard as they can. Any day now.

Increased automation could make life easier and better for everyone, but it's fucking over the majority, thanks to corporate greed.

Re: No problem

[dywolf]

White flight and bad corporate decisions are what led to Detroit.

Re: No problem

[ausekilis]

Unfortunately there's problems at the other end of the spectrum as well. I've known more than one electrician that was unionized and unable to work for years because of how the union operated. Being the last in a queue and competing against non-unionized workers with the same skill set flat out sucks. Verizon is seeing what happens when the pendulum swings too far to the corporate side... When it swings to the union side, things are just as screwed up.

This is where we need to think about whose interests are best served. You have Corporate/shareholders who are out to line their pockets, and the workers/unions who want (more than) fair treatment and higher wages. Those two are fundamentally at odds in the U.S. If instead we used a system that had both shareholders and workers equally invested in the success, things may go smoother for longer.

Re: No problem

[Shortguy881]

Yeah, stick it to them!. Because when I walk into a cell phone store, I immediately think what a wonderful, highly skilled, demanding job it must be to work there. These people are completely unnecessary. Their entire store model could be replaced by a vending machine.

I have a tough time feeling sorry for someone without the mental capacity or drive to get a GED and then demands to live like the 1%.

Re: No problem

[pnutjam]

UAW strikes aren't what crippled Detroit or automakers in general. It had way more to do with lethargy in management and outright mismanagement. There were plenty of deals done today with costs bore tomorrow, all controlled by management.
The UAW union had (maybe has) plenty of it's own corruption, but it wasn't anywhere near as responsible as the people at the top. However, the people at the top will be glad to see there are still people who buy their narrative.
Why hasn't a strong union crippled UPS?
Unions are just a convenient scapegoat for mismanagement or failure to ride the tide of a changing era.

Re: No problem

[pnutjam]

This strike isn't about halting progress, it's about insuring that management makes a commitment to it's workers instead of funneling profits into stock buybacks (to pay stockholders), VP bonuses (to pay mangement), and other shenanigans that usually end up saddling the company with future debt to enrich the current management team.

When someone invests their labor and time in something, they deserve to have a say, and it would be dereliction of duty to ignore warning flags that point to mismanagement.

Re: No problem

[pnutjam]

Nothing will stop the march of progress.

I like to see how these anti-union / fair pay arguments waffle between the offshoring and automation arguments, which are very different things. Offshoring shifts costs and allows old tech to be used a yesterdays prices. It has a place, but it's a crutch for bad companies and bad managers. Automation is happening either way, eating a shit sandwich today will not prevent it, but it might delay it. Why do you want to delay progress? The quicker people don't need to do drudgery, the quicker they can move on to more meaningful work. Nobody should be hanging their hat on easy to automate jobs, but I'm not so certain food prep is one of those. Either way, a fair wage is deserved and should be paid, progress will happen either way. Companies have shown they must be reminded and maybe forced to consider the welfare of their labor investors.

Re: No problem

[pnutjam]

True, the South killed Detroit with it's institutional racism that was incorporated into the Federal government in the early 20th century.
For those who are interested: http://www.npr.org/2015/05/14/...

Re: No problem

[JBMcB]

Nissan's two factories are in the south, and three of Toyota's four US factories is in the Midwest. None of them are unionized.

Meanwhile, Ford is importing the Transit Connect from Turkey and building a brand new factory in Mexico, and GM is starting to import Buicks from China.

Re: No problem

[arth1]

...that's true. But *every* job can be on-shored. I can hear the refrain now.. "there is a growing shortage of electricians.. we need more [insert visa type] to deal with this shortage!"

There is a growing shortage of supreme court judges...

Re: No problem

[StikyPad]

My experience in a unionized workplace was... unique. It may have resulted in better pay when the contract was negotiated, but when I came on board 2 years later, there was no potential upside to joining. The CBA was already in place, so there was nothing to be gained on that front. We couldn't strike, so union dues just went to a pool of money that could never benefit us, even in theory. Further, the CBA enforced seniority in layoffs, so when the contract downsized, I was the first to go -- the company had no say in the matter. It was in a right-to-work state, so I opted not to join, and keep my ~$110/mo. that would have gone to dues. Some people begrudged me for that, but they all said they admired that I had the balls not to throw my money away. I didn't really see it as having balls... it was uncomfortable, but I wasn't going to part with my money for no potential benefit. Maybe that makes me an asshole, but I still feel like it was the right choice, and I would encourage anyone to consider carefully whether it makes sense for them to join the union, if they have a choice.

Re: No problem

[cyberchondriac]

I'm fairly good friends with a guy who's worked there a chunk of his life (he's not a manager, he's a tech). In our area, it's mostly the landline people going on strike, and he thinks they're nuts. Landlines are rapidly vanishing anyway, and these guys already make 100k a year or better. They're lucky to have a job like that, in his words. I'd agree. I don't know about other areas though.

Re: No problem

[StikyPad]

It's not a highly skilled job, but it's a highly profitable industry with low labor costs as a percent of expenses, and it makes sense to pay employees commensurate with the profitability of the company, just to prevent the concentration of wealth. The alternative is "redistribution of wealth" through taxation, which nobody really likes, even people who recognize it as necessary, which ironically includes a substantial portion of the people who have accumulated that wealth and a smaller portion of the people who have suffered because of it.

Re: No problem

[sjames]

Because you can't offshore the jobs the IBEW members have. It would be comedy gold to watch them try to send a ditch out to be dug or send a pole out to be re-wired though.

The UAW strikes didn't screw Detroit. The big three resting on their laurels and completely failing to see Japan and then Korea as disruptive forces in the auto industry did that, along with NAFTA.

Re: No problem

[sjames]

Yes, Union = Progress!

Re: No problem

[sjames]

Isn't it funny how management never seems to be on the block for offshoring even though there are many fine European CEOs used to working for less than 1/3 the pay of American CEOs.

Re: No problem

[sjames]

That used to be pretty much the standard deal in the U.S.. Ask your Dad.

Re: No problem

[mandy2tom]

Even though the FCC gave Verizon and AT&T all the best spectrum Vote with your pocketbook If you don't like Verizon or AT&T don't give them money

Re: No problem

[whitroth]

Very bad comparison. Most folks' tv and 'Net comes from *wired* (or fibre). You can't offshore the jobs that these people do, with the infrastructure *here*, any more than you can offshore desktop support for your CEO.

Wish I could join a union, but they've got the regs written for computer professionals that it's pretty much impossible.

                  mark

Re: No problem

[RobotRunAmok]

>>When someone invests their labor and time in something, they deserve to have a say,

Actually, what they deserve to have, is a fair paycheck. If they opt out of a fair paycheck in lieu of a smaller paycheck and more say/control at first and possibly equity further down the line, that works as well. But they don't "deserve" anything other than a fair paycheck. That's how modern society compensates you for "labor and time." In olden times, the compensation would be slivers of silver, or perhaps some geese...

You may argue that if a company that establishes internal policies to solicit input from its workers will ultimately profit more than a company that does not, and I will agree with you. But unless that worker has negotiated anything more than a fair paycheck, a fair paycheck is all that she deserves.

Re: No problem

[KozmoStevnNaut]

I know that you've definitely had issues with your unions in the US, they've been just as bad as the employers in a lot of cases. I know the UK has had similar issues.

Obviously, I can only speak from my own perspective of being a union member here in Denmark, where the monthly dues go towards good union work, such as collective bargaining (the company I work for is notoriously tight-fisted), unemployment benefits, legal assistance, job hunting assistance and a bunch of other benefits. Luckily, we're spared the issues you mention, where seniority is what counts the most when it comes to firing people, and of course we can go on strike, should the need arise.

Corrupt systems are garbage, no matter which side they're on.

Re: No problem

[pnutjam]

I disagree, and i think most people would disagree. There are numerous statues that spell out things beyond a paycheck that are expected by employees. Especially if one is working a career and not a "temp" job, one expects the company to be there tomorrow and a labor investor has the same long term interest (probably more) then a capital investor.

Re: No problem

[Swave An deBwoner]

I think it's still difficult to offshore or automate cable installation.

Verizon has been dragging their feet making FiOS available throughout NYC because they don't want to pay cable installers. Unless you live in a handful of high-end locations Verizon offers only crappy DSL, not FiOS. But "don't worry" they say, it's "coming soon".

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/27/nyregion/new-york-city-and-verizon-battle-over-fios-service.html

Verizon had agreed to have fiber-optic cable for FiOS pass all three million homes in the city by the end of last year. Lawyers for each side, however, are arguing about the definition of “pass.” The company says it has met the deadline. The city’s response: not even close.

Verizon: We passed. We passed all of those homes. Nobody said "connect".

Re: No problem

[ganjadude]

i dont disagree with you, but what we dont need is politicians making false statements such as "verizon hasnt paid a nickle in taxes in years" meanwhile they paid some 10 billion just last year. I bet some of that 10 billion could have made those 40K employees happy

Re: No problem

[ganjadude]

Neither Sanders nor Trump will be able to do squat against the will of a Republican or Democrat controlled Congress.

FTFY

Re: No problem

[ganjadude]

you seem to miss the point that they left union controlled factories, and are setting up in non union shops in the south and mid west (and somehow paying their employees better)

meanwhile, the UAW is still trying to raise cost of doing business for all car companies.

Re:No problem

[Methadras]

Hell, the scabs might end up being better.

Re: No problem

[RabidReindeer]

What makes you think I haven't done either? Or, for that matter, done the actual incorporation, rather than taking over after the company was already running?

I gave it up. I can make good business decisions. What I can't endure doing is all the constant dealing with people to establish and maintain business relationships. I'd rather be doing just about anything else including taking a potato peeler to my eyeballs.

On the other hand, few CEOs can design and build their own products. So are people skills cosmic but creative skills worthless?

Re: No problem

[Billly Gates]

Ok, for an intellectual excersize SHOULD everyone have the same bargaining power?

Should someone who worked hard to get professional degrees and worked extra hours to get promoted have the same bargaining power as someone did not? Should a very important job that brings in the most market and economical value and most risk be equalled bargained for just any other job?

Corporations do not set the prices for labor. The market does as it is willing to pay more for different services. Admit it if your daughter was very sick you would be willing to pay a doctor more than if i you are hungry for a hamburger for lunch? If corporations collude people with experience will start businesses to compete.

Re: No problem

[Billly Gates]

If a corporation is a bunch of shareholders pooling their resources to make more money out of a business - then unions are a bunch of small businesses merging to make more money selling their product (labour) in bulk.

And like any other corporation - the labour-selling corporation has a duty and obligation to it's shareholders (who happen to also be the providers of the service it sells to other companies) to maximize profit. That means, for starters, not selling the service for less than it costs to produce.

If the price you can earn for a job is less than the cost of living - then that is, by itself, proof of a market failure. It means that the market is no longer willing to pay for the product more than the minimum cost of producing it. When the product is, coincidentally, the only one that the vast majority of people will ever be able to sell - your entire society just got fucked.

No just like the horse and candle industry it will shut down as society will buy other things instead and these other things will get hte extra money from society it used to spend on the product it no longer produces

Re: No problem

[RabidReindeer]

Should they not?

The person whose name you have usurped didn't work hard to get a professional degree - he's a dropout.

Working extra hours? Lots of people do that. At Burger King.

One of the things that annoys people more than anything else about the C-gang is that you can be paid vastly more to be an utter failure than most hard-working degreed people will make in a lifetime. Any risk there is on the part of the employers, not the employee, who wins either way.

The Holy Market doesn't always do as it is "willing". Sometimes you have to take what you can get or starve. Unless your buddies happen to be able to give you more leverage.

Re: No problem

[silentcoder]

Except for the bit where this industry's providers IS the society. If this industry is not profitable ALL industries fail because without this industry being profitable no industry has any customers.
The vast majority of people will never be able to sell anything other than labour. If labour isn't paid well - nobody has money to buy anything else with.

The only way a society can survive without a profitable labour industry is to remove the (utterly arbitrary) idea that a living must be EARNED.

Re: No problem

[Coren22]

Do you have any citations of this? This goes exactly opposite of everything I have read about this situation.

kinda like when the government shuts down

[turkeydance]

it's good news in a way. find out who is non-essential with Verizon.

It's time to rise up a be counted

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a power struggle between union and management, and although I think a fair deal can be reached, the management clearly needs to be sent a signal.

We simply don't care any more about increasing share holder value at the expense of jobs.

Re:It's time to rise up a be counted

[Anonymous Coward]

I think a fair deal can be reached, the management clearly needs to be sent a signal.

Can you fear me now?

Re:It's time to rise up a be counted

[Stonent1]

It's all good until the non-union employees see how good the union guys have it.

Re:It's time to rise up a be counted

[pnutjam]

Capitol investors have been coddled too long, labor investors deserve the same consideration.

Re:It's time to rise up a be counted

[toddestan]

Except there's definitely a concerted effort to convince the non-union people that the union people have it too good and that they need to be taken down a few levels. So instead of the non-union employees fighting for better pay and benefits to match the unions, they instead fight to take pay and benefits away from the unions and drag everyone down.

The joke I've heard is:
There's a CEO, a union guy, and a non-union guy standing around a table with a dozen cookies. The CEO takes 11 of the cookies, stuffs them all in his mouth, and says to the non-union guy, "Hey, that union guy is gonna take your cookie!".
I don't get why people keep falling for it.

Re:It's time to rise up a be counted

[Swave An deBwoner]

Firstly, your anecdote actually claims that union guys do "have it good", but you didn't have it good - instead you had to scurry around and wait for hours to finish your work. You describe them though as "lazy", a term that implies disapproval.

Secondly, that rule is in place to discourage hiring of non-union workers; didn't you realize that?

Re:It's time to rise up a be counted

[ganjadude]

i got paid to sit there and do nothing for 3 hours, while waiting for them to move a latter 3 feet (while they got paid to do nothing

if getting paid to be unproductive is your idea of having it good i dont know what to tell you

i know why the rule is there, and its a bullshit rule, there is 0 safety reason i should be unable to move a stepstool 3 feet. its bullshit

Re:Every Man For Himself

[Austerity Empowers]

No love, absolutely none, will be lost between labour and management

There is no love, absolutely none, for Verizon management amongst absolutely anyone, anywhere. Bigger sacks of shit do not exist on planet earth, including those found in fertilizer bags, these people if ground up and distributed could put honest, hungry cows out of business. If the employees want gold plated toilets, let them have them.

s/Verizon/Any Telecom/g

Re:No More Clintons, ty

[Noah Haders]

The Verizon CEO ripped Bernie in a FB post, about his "contemptible" platform of trying to make business decisions into a moral issue. Probably the wrong response at the wrong time.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/...

There was a two and a half year cliff.

[tlambert]

http://www.weeklystandard.com/...

There was a two and a half year cliff. We are just on our way into that now. Yes, this does mean a reduction in so-called "Cadillac Plans", orwise known as "Good health insurance.

In addition, in states like New York and California, which set up exchanges, have their own sunset coming on the federal subsidy; this was the big argument between Red States, like Alabama, who refused to set up exchanges of their own, and the federal government last year when those sunsets started to kick in, and the question was whether the sunset provisions applied in those states, or whether the fed, if it wanted people to have the subsidy, would have to continue paying all of it themselves, rather than the states having to pick up the bill.

Ironically, it was tied to creating a state exchange, so there are good legal arguments why the fed would have to carry the load they willingly shouldered when they picked up for the lack of state exchanges.

The jury is still out on who is going to foot the extra Medicaid costs, but the bill is definitely coming due for the unions, and they are seriously unhappy.

I expect that if this keeps up for any significant period of time, since it's on the order of 22% of Verizon employees, if we are to believe the 40,000 employee numbers, that we will be seeing Verizon call centers opening up in the Philippines to take advantage of the recently fast-tracked TPP (Trans Pacific Partnership) agreement.

"May you live in interesting times..." applies, I think.

Re:Ditched Verzion for T-Mobile

[supremebob]

This is off-topic, but if you're really paying $56 a month for a 2 GB plan you're paying way the hell too much. You can get a Straight Talk 5 GB 4G LTE "unlimited" plan for just $45 a month in the US, with your choice of carrier SIM cards.

You can vote with your wallet here.

[wernst]

Verizon made an overall profit of $4.04 Billion in the third quarter of 2015, reported Forbes (which I am not linking to.) That's not income. That's profit.

I can certainly understand that businesses, in lean times, need to take steps to keep afloat to avoid bankruptcy, but when you're close to earning $12B in profit a year, cutting pension and healthcare benefits is just mean-spirited. Verizon is destroying the middle class that it is hoping will buy its FIOS and wireless services, and that's both bad for business and bad for the country, and I don't want to support those sorts of actions.

Verizon wireless did a similarly mean-spirited thing last year and moved thousands of customer support jobs from "expensive" SoCal to "cheap" Kentucky, putting a few of my pals out of a job, actually. Despite good wireless service, I cancelled my Verizon Wireless accounts immediately, and when Retention called to ask why, I told them exactly why, asked the caller where they worked, and advised them to start looking for a new job because their position was surely going to move to a cheaper area of the country too.

Isn't $12B in profits ENOUGH? Vote with your wallets folks, and be sure to tell Verizon why you're leaving.

Re: You can vote with your wallet here.

[Anonymous Coward]

Verizon has racked in about 1.8 Billion in profit each month for the first quarter. Verizon's own estimates state that is currently costing them about a Billion per year on employee compensation, or a little more than 2 weeks of business. I think they can afford not to gut every single part of the benefit package. Oh and they recently got 10.8 Billion for selling off 3 States that was effective 4/1/16, so they have some cash lying around

Re:You can vote with your wallet here.

[Fallen Kell]

I suggest that VZ use quite a bit of that $12B and start buying back stock to remove those shares from the market then if EPS is a problem...

Good for them. Techies take note!

[ErichTheRed]

I'm always glad to see union workers standing up for what they want, and I've never worked in a position where I've even had the opportunity to join a union. It's a nice contrast to the ultra-Libertarian crowd in IT who doesn't realize they're being taken advantage of.

If IT and software development were unionized, or better, entry was controlled by a professional organization, people would have a better quality of life. The H-1B visa abuse wouldn't exist and employers who routinely understaff positions and demand 70-hour work weeks to make up for it would be curbed. If we had a professional organization instead of a union, we could actually train new entrants instead of relying on overpaid consultants and/or dealing with incompetence. Instead, we have the lone ranger mentality, and people are convinced that nothing bad will ever be done by their employer.

From what I've read, the union is entirely justified in this case - Verizon is trying to slowly take away things like employer-paid health care and hoping people don't notice by giving them a salary increase. These things are basics, and should be part of everyone's benefits package. It's executive and shareholder greed, pure and simple. Verizon makes massive amounts of profit and their workers should get their fair share, period.

Re: Good for them. Techies take note!

[nehumanuscrede]

"I think the companies should really just negotiate on a dollar figure for compensation, and let the union figure out how to manage health benefits and pensions. No long-term unknown costs and the union is motivated to seek the best solution for it's members because they will have a much more direct influence by voting on different plans than on union officers negotiating plans with the company."

The bad thing is, while the Union might like to pretend they care about their members, they truly only give a damn about one thing:

Payraises.

Why ? Because Union Dues are a percentage of your base pay. Thus, if your pay goes up, their pay goes up.

This is why they will fight tooth and nail for a payraise, but could give two shits about anything else. Sorry your health care premiums doubled, but we got what we wanted out of it. . . .

They'll put up the good fight for appearances, may even call a strike so they can " show the company we mean business ", but in the end they'll give in because they got the payraise.

The company just laughs as it applies all the funds it saved by not paying employees during the strike to fund the healthcare package for the next few years.

Re:Good for them. Techies take note!

[RightwingNutjob]

No dog in the fight over at Verizon, that's between themselves to figure out, but a big fat Hell No to unionized software shops. You want all those idiots that can't code their way out of a paper bag or turn on their box without help to have guaranteed job security instead of just a slight chance of bubbling up into management? Unless you're one of those idiots...

White-collar work and unions don't mix. A union is a mechanism by which one may put more bullshit between himself and getting the job done and is another layer of politics to have to deal with.

Re:Good for them. Techies take note!

[Toonol]

The US would be a lot better off if no employer paid for their employee's healthcare.

Re:Good for them. Techies take note!

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes it would. A single-payer, tax-funded universal system like much of the rest of the civilized world.

Re:Good for them. Techies take note!

[dywolf]

several years ago there was a massive nationwide strike against ATT, before the breakup.

I believe it was the CWA. my grandfather was a part of it.
among other things, ATT were trying to get out of their previously agreed upon pension plans.

the end result of the strike was that the pension not only stayed, in perpetuity through any and all buyouts (which was good forward thinking on the CWA's part), but was also expanded to include full medical for both the employee and spouse.

my grandfather worked as a lineman for ATT for over 35 years before retiring, working all across California. and in fact, before the conditions that caused the strike came about, they always treated him very well (course he was a great worker). While they were in Santa Rosa my grandmother developed some lung issues, and needed to get to a drier climate, so they went first to Truckee, then back close to her old home in Cottonwood, and the company was more than happy to transfer him.

But, ATT has done right by him. He's now 96 years old, has been retired and on his small farm for ~43 years. and while the pension has depreciated due to inflation, the medical is directly responsible for his longevity, as neither he (4 heart attacks) or grandmother (2 heart attacks, and starting 10 years ago Alzheimer's and assisted living care; she passed finally just last year) has had to pay a dime for medical all this time.

He loved the old ATT, regretted that a strike became necessary, and to this day hates Verizon for causing the breakup.
In the end, ATT has done alright by him, and he gave loyalty because he got it in turn.

I'm an ATT customer today (yes I know its really SW Bell that grew up, bought out the others, and renamed itself ATT), partly because this history.
And I'm pro-union rights, and in a union, also because of this history.

More companies should embrace that sort of old school loyalty to their workers. And if they don't and want to screw their workers, then that's when we turn to our unions to protect ourselves and give ourselves a voice that we just wouldn't have on an individual basis.

Re:Good for them. Techies take note!

[ryanmc1]

I think it is funny that you are blaming the company for you volunteering to work 70+ hours. I am a software engineer, and I have never worked more than 50 hours in a week, and even that is very few and far between. If I have to work late because we are releasing new code that night, then I take the next morning off as comp time.

How am I able to do this? I pick employers that respect work life balance. When I interview for a new job I ask them what their work life is like, if they say that they do a lot of crunch time late nights, or they have sleeping areas in the office that is a red flag for me and I move on. I make it very clear that I am being paid for 40 hours, and I stick to that 40 hours. I personally do not set a precedence for working more hours, otherwise the company will start to expect it.

There are engineers, at the company I work for, that do give more hours. They also tend to get more recognition that I do, but I am also ok with that. I have been promoted 3 times in the last 3 years and I am happy with that pace.

If you are thinking, where can I find this dream job you are speaking of, come to Utah. We are desperate for good software engineers. I get emails and phone calls from recruiters all the time, and in Utah we really respect the work life balance. There is so much competition for workers in Utah that wages are also really high compared to the cost of living. And best of all I live only 15 minutes from work. I don't have to take a long train rides to work and be hours away from my family. I don't have to commute in multi-hour long traffic jams. If my kids need me I can leave and go get them, bring them to work with me if necessary, or take them home.

If you really want to know what company I specifically work for, them PM me, and if you are interested in a job I can recommend one for you. Our own recruiters keep asking us for recommendations for new employees. We have a lot of fun here, and we are getting ready for an IPO in a couple years. We have an Arcade room, and computer gaming room, pool tables, ping pong, etc.

Re:Good for them. Techies take note!

[Arkham]

If IT and software development were unionized, or better, entry was controlled by a professional organization, people would have a better quality of life.

I think you're doing it wrong if that is your experience. My company treats developers like kings. Free snacks, unlimited vacation, $5k in training every year, a week of paid leave to volunteer at a charity of your choice.

Unions seem like a good idea for unskilled or commodity labor that cannot command reasonable compensation as an individual, but in high-skill positions collective bargaining only hurts the good developers. I know I wouldn't be happy making the same thing as everyone around me if I think I am better at my craft.

Re:Good for them. Techies take note!

[ganjadude]

Verizon is trying to slowly take away things like employer-paid health care and hoping people don't notice by giving them a salary increase.

ummm you seem to be missing the fact that this is the desired outcome of obamacare.

Re:Ditched Verzion for T-Mobile

[HaZardman27]

Could be $56 per month, including an equipment plan. Otherwise, yes, $56 should be way too much for 2GB. I think my service plan with T-Mobile is about $100 per month for unlimited 4G for 2 lines.

Re:Ditched Verzion for T-Mobile

[tsqr]

3x as fast

Really?

My Libertarian view on labor

[zerofoo]

One of the most important tenets of Libertarianism is your individual right to sell your labor. Voluntarily choosing to sell your labor via a labor union isn't incompatible with Libertarianism.

I have two issues with some unions:

1. An individual should never be forced to join a union. An individual should join a union if it makes sense for the individual. Too often unions enrich themselves while providing little else to the rank and file.

2. There should be no unions in Government work. No functions of our Government should be at the mercy of a union.

Beyond that, I support voluntary membership in private sector unions.

Re:My Libertarian view on labor

[ganjadude]

it does. I can choose what company i can do business with, i dont get to choose which government i do business with

Re:My Libertarian view on labor

[ganjadude]

federal laws cover what you just described now, it may have mattered in the past, but not so much these days

Re:My Libertarian view on labor

[ganjadude]

if im not a part of the union, my far share to the union is 0. i have no problem with that at all

Hyper goes with Ultra

[SuperKendall]

It's a nice contrast to the ultra-Libertarian crowd in IT who doesn't realize they're being taken advantage of.

To the contrary; the ultra-Libertarians are hyper-aware of how much they are being taken advantage of. They either:

A) Do not care because of other reasons they work there that are beneficial to them.
B) Take action to correct the disparity.
C) Leave quickly for other shores, which is super easy to do these days.

I'm not sure how much you think technical workers can really be taken advantage of in todays job market...

On the flip side, I always feel sorry for the unionized people because they are drug into things like strikes they may have wanted nothing to do with, and on top of that take a pay hit for the pleasure to keep union bosses in yachts for doing nothing. Personally, if anyone is going to have a yacht I'd rather it be me; not sure why you support outright theft from workers but each to his own I suppose.

Re:Hyper goes with Ultra

[Shados]

Bingo. But don't forget that IT is pretty divided, and it's why a lot of arguments on slashdot start over these things...

On one hand you have software engineers: while tough, and require a fair amount of time investment to keep up to date, etc, is incredibly rewarding, and usually you can keep a decent work/life balance, make 200k+/year once you're good, etc.

Then you have coders, tech grunts, support, game developers, etc. Those are usually underpaid, under appreciated, taken advantage of, etc.

A lot of people put both those categories in the same basket....confusion follows.

Yes, really

[SuperKendall]

What that bar (which is pretty darn close between T-Mobile and Verizon) does not show is the difference in speed form region to region... there are absolutely areas around the country where T-Mobile is much much faster than Verizon. At my home I couldn't get calls in the basement of my home with Verizon, but I can with T-Mobile...

Re:You can misinterpret statistical data here

[Bite The Pillow]

Wireless is not involved. The people who are striking are the ones who physically connect stuff with wires, which is the opposite of wireless.

Verizon's wired business is shrinking because of people going wireless. The people who connect wires are suffering because people are going wireless.

Is there still a number of wires left to be connected? Sure, because wireless isn't completely wireless. But it's a lot less demand for the skills of connecting wires compared to pre-wireless days.

You mentioned Verizon Wireless as if it were a separate company. And it is a separate issue, since these are customer support jobs that could be done from the moon for all it matters.

If you take the losses or slowdowns on wired business, and consider that wireless offsets those declines, then wireless is a money printing business for Verizon. I think your message is better off focusing on these sorts of points, not global all-business-lines profit. And you'll make a far stronger argument. I'm actually a little bit on the other side of the argument now. Like 98% with you instead of 99%.

It is always a balancing act

[Trachman]

Commenting and fingerpointing to the actual profit is simply pointless.

Mr, Wernst, $12B is a lot of money, but this number is only relevant to the shareholders. Without making further analysis, I am making a guess that US based pension plans are among the largest shareholders. Basically it is the retired teachers, policemen, firemen, municipal workers... the average US retired person.

If you cut the profit in half for Verzion, you are immediately making a massive change to the pension plans, to the accounting and to future pension expenses, because pension expenses are already defined, however the Verizon stock price would plunge. I am betting that reduction of profit by 50% would collapse the stock price by 75%. Verizon would try to raise the prices, at the same time increasing CPI and adding an inflationary ripple to the economy

So, eventually, reduced profit will return as a boomerang one way or another.

Further, an interesting detail: VZ is citing healthcare costs. It is Obamacare, to be precise. Once you give "free insurance", somebody has to pay, and in this situation it will be primarily the Union workers getting the taste of the medicine.

SoCal to Kentucky

[Anonymous Coward]

SoCal is running out of water, running out of space, and has too many people clogging the roads.

Kentucky could use a few people. In general, the USA would benefit from moving people to the great underused middle of the country.

Your pals should move. You too!

Re:SoCal to Kentucky

[ganjadude]

as a new yorker leaving for the south i feel your paid

FIOS

[Etherwalk]

Couldn't affect customer service in any way, it's impossible to do worse.

FIOS around NYC provided one of the most reliable residential internet services I ever used, and I've only seen them send good technicians and linemen. I've seen cable service that just kicks out randomly for half an hour like crappy DSL, but the FIOS worked when semis knocked it down and ran over it.

Re: Really, There's No problem

[RabidReindeer]

Dear Sir:

Our company, Bombay Telephone Polishers, LLC stands ready to provide most excellent service with all needful certifications at very low prices.

In other words, don't be silly. If there's one thing outsourcing companies excel in it's cram-and-barf certs, and even when they don't actually have those certs, they'll claim they do just to score the contract with the corporate bargain-hunters. Then, if there is an actual requirement, they'll ram as many junior persons through cram-and-barf as necessary.

Wait.. who do we cheer for ?

[silentcoder]

Slashdot pretty much hates unions so we should cheer the company.
But slashdot pretty much hates Verizon and loves to see them get hurt so we should cheer the union...

This is worse than that time there was a supreme court case where the plaintif and the defendent were BOTH corporations and the judges couldn't figure out who should win because whoever won a corporation lost !

Tell me...

[wkwilley2]

How would one ionize a Verizon Employee in the first place?

Re:You can misinterpret statistical data here

[bjb]

You make these statements like everyone is going to use cellular data exclusively at home. Sure, my landline at home is nothing but a means for telemarketers and scammers to harass me, but if I disconnect it? There is still going to be a wire to my house for internet at a minimum. Yes, you can make the same "wire cutting" statement for TV, but you still come back to the internet argument.

Unless cellular 5G can replace wired internet and be effectively "unlimited", there is still a place for a wired infrastructure.

Re:No More Clintons, ty

[JackieBrown]

It would really make my decade if CEOs calling out Sanders ends up waking up the Dem's rank and file to how much better he'd be for their interests than another Clinton presidency.

They are awake. Unfotuantely, you have the democratic party's "super-delegates" to cancel that out.

Re:Every Man For Himself

[pnutjam]

I commented above, but this deserves a +1 Honest Truth Mod point.

Re:You can misinterpret statistical data here

[pnutjam]

Yeah, all this infrastructure was for 1 wire (for phone), now that were moving back to 1 wire (for internet), it's not really any different.

Not in CA

[Sir Holo]

Verizon sold all of its fiber (& customers) to Frontier. Two other states as well.

Re: The have to cut the health insurance!

[ganjadude]

verizon payed 15 billion in taxes last year at 35%.... you still want more of verizons money?????

Re:No More Clintons, ty

[Noah Haders]

unfort hill still is getting the majority of votes, showing where the rank and file are.

Re:No More Clintons, ty

[Noah Haders]

unfort hill still is getting the majority of votes, showing where the rank and file are.

 

Re: The have to cut the health insurance!

[Swave An deBwoner]

Where did you get that "15 billion in taxes .. at 35%" figure?

According to http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/stock/vz/financials Verizon's sales revenue in 2015 was $132B (I'm rounding to the nearest billion, no need to worry about a few hundreds of millions here and there).

After they deducted a slew of stuff that their accountants decided would slip through IRS audits they ended up with a gross income of $63B.

Then they deducted "expenses", leaving $18B in net income.

Part of those "expenses" were:

• Income Tax - Current Domestic - $6.3 B
• Income Tax - Current Foreign - $7 M (not B)
• Income Tax - Deferred Domestic - $3.5 B
• Income Tax - Deferred Foreign - $9 M (not B)

The above looks like a total of just under $10B paid on paid on a $63B gross income, with a reported net income of $18B. That's approximately a 15 percent tax rate. Not 35 percent. Still better than Apple though, I'll grant you that.

Re:You can misinterpret statistical data here

[Swave An deBwoner]

They are doing this gradually. When a customer get FiOS installed Verizon clips their copper POTS line.

A friend who had FiOS installed in his home in NJ said that they absolutely refused to leave the POTS line intact in case he wanted to go back to it at a later date. I have read that they don't like that the law requires them to let other companies use their copper cables and there is currently no such requirement for fibre.