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EgyptAir Flight 804 Missing (cnn.com)
dark.nebulae writes: An EgyptAir flight disappeared on it's way from Paris to Egypt resulting in loss of 56 passengers and 10 crew members. The plane was flying at 37,000 feet when it vanished shortly after entering Egyptian airspace. It was suppose to land in Cairo at 3:15 a.m. Thursday after leaving Paris' Charles de Gaulle Airport at 11:09 p.m. local time. CNN's aviation correspondent Richard Quest said, "Planes just do not fall out of the sky for no reason, particularly at 37,000 feet." He said the plane vanished while cruising -- the safest part of the journey. We'll update the story as more details emerge.
UPDATE 5/20/16 3:57 AM (UTC): Egypt's civil aviation minister says it's more likely terrorism than a technical issue. Greek officials said the plane swerved sharply and plunged from 37,000 feet down to the Mediterranean as the plane left Greek airspace for Egyptian airspace. [Source]
UPDATE 5/20/16 3:57 AM (UTC): Egypt's civil aviation minister says it's more likely terrorism than a technical issue. Greek officials said the plane swerved sharply and plunged from 37,000 feet down to the Mediterranean as the plane left Greek airspace for Egyptian airspace. [Source]
also BBC source
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-36309492
Not funny. Indications are that there was an explosion in flight, but that'd unconfirmed. It's also not clear the cause of the explosiom, if true. That doesn't necessarily indicate an attack; TWA flight 800 exploded because of a mechanical failure. It's way too early to say shit like that.
There are no other alternatives - modern planes don't just break up mid flight and if it had been another pilot suicide the radar track would have shown it descending whereas it simply vanished indicating catastrophic break up. Given the distance from the coast my money is on a bomb, either in the hold or on a terrorist on board.
At cruising altitude, a plane is hard to bring down. You generally need an air to air missile, or a bomb. Most Egyptian bombings happen leaving, not entering, because it's easier to breach security in Cairo than Paris. So if it is a bomb, it would be alarming that they were so successful. There would be almost nowhere that would be safe.
Learn to love Alaska
I'm not trolling, Slashdot.
20 per cent of people living in the city of Paris are immigrants and 41.3 per cent of people under 20 have at least one immigrant parent.
Second generation Muslims are the ones getting radicalized.
Getting? First generation Muslims were equally radicalized however then-Europe didn't accept that. Now Europe must accept all sorts of religious nonsense or consider serious fines and even jail time for "hate" speech (even this comment could be construed as such). That and Muslims are breeding out natives by both natural propagation and force, the large cities like Paris and Brussels are no longer safe to the natives, a problem that started only a few decades ago.
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Even if you're 100% not trolling (heh), it's still incredibly insensitive. Would you accept an Atheist posting something like, "Well, they're just hunks of meat and organs now, I don't get why we're spending so much money and effort worrying about something we can't change. They're dead, can't bring 'em back!".
Everyone of every religious creed (and none at all) can be total jerks. Would it be too much to ask to just at least pretend to be sympathetic?
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I only said that God is great. My thought and pray are with the victims and their family. Allahu akbar.
Why are you so racist? ...assuming it meant a terrorist battle cry. You disgust me. Doing Islam apology so early without even knowing the facts.
You know damn well what you're insinuating, and you've been doing it all over this thread. It shows an extreme lack of taste or respect on your part, and what's even more sad is that you apparently have nothing better to do. You're the same kind of person that would think it funny to run around wearing swastikas, but if you'd ever survived any of these conflicts (which you almost certainly wouldn't), it wouldn't be nearly so funny. You're probably among the younger population of this world, and you should be very very thankful you never had to live through something like WWII or the Vietnam War, or the wars in the Middle East. While I don't like saying the gift of life is a waste, you have absolutely no appreciation for how lucky you are that you can piss around and post shit like this all day, without living in fear that this is the last day you're alive.
"Set a man a fire, he'll be warm for the rest of the night. Set a man afire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life."
Why do you assume it's easier to breach security in Cairo than in Paris?
TFA mentioned the tight security at CDG. Did you read TFA?
How many times over the past few years have we seen reports of "rioting youths" in Paris....
How does "rioting youths" relate to airport security?
Learn to love Alaska
In the streets, not in the airport. Even the Brussels bombers had to blow themselves up in the check in area because it's was doubtful they'd have got though security.
Second generation Muslims are the ones getting radicalized.
It would be more correct to say that disfranchised, young people in deprived areas are the ones that get radicalised. At the moment this group includes a large proportion of Muslims, but there is no reason to equate the two, for many reasons:
- We have historically seen this happen many times; in the beginning of the 20th century, we saw large numbers of Fascists, Communists and, yes, Conservatives in organised street fighting, we have seen the Suffragettes, and so on - every time there has has been a large proportion of young people who felt they had nothing to lose, and that they had to do something. Religion may have been the excuse sometimes, or idealism of one sort or another. This time there are many Muslims, because that particular group has recently contributed large numbers of migrants into Europe, and it is very hard to grow up as a teenager in between cultures. But it has nothing to do with their religion.
- Although there are many extremists at the moment, who self-identify as Muslims, they are not the only ones; we also have nominally Christian extremists (how absurd is that: 'pro-lifers' committing terrorism offences), there are some that call themselves 'Communists', 'Maoists' or Neo-Nazis. Whatever their ideology or religion, this is only an excuse they use to justify their atrocious actions to themselves.
I think, if we always point the finger of blame away from ourselves, we miss the opportunity to address the very real issues that cause this to happen. We have to accept that the anger that fuels radicalisation is, in fact, very justified, and we need to face up to the fact that we play a big part in creating these injustices. And then we need to fix the problems.
There are other possibilities: a suicide, thrust reverser suddenly opening, rudder torn off...
"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
As well as a blown engine damaging a wing, causing a fuel fire, or other structural fire.
The (non-pilot) man-caused failures are limited.
Learn to love Alaska
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
Planes just do not disappear suddenly.
If there is any kind of mechanical issue, or a hint of it, pilots are trained to report immediately to the ground. All we have at this time is a news report about an automated distress signal, which is released by the plain automatically.
Remember Lockerby: it took years to put all the evidence, and it disintegrated over the ground. Flight 804 has disappeared in the middle of Mediterranean sea, investigation will be extremely difficult and costly. It will take weeks to get the flight recorders and it will take months to gather some plane parts. Marine environment is very unfriendly to the forensic evidence.
Because of the uncertainty, it will have a chilling effect to Egypt tourism (second airplane crash within 12 month), and, possibly, even longer TSA lines in USA. People will now need arrive to the airport not 2 but 3 hours.
This tragedy may also add several percent points to Mr. Trump's popularity, and could possibly win him elections.
Well, not exactly. There's several books by Arabs, Moslems, etc. who point out that there really is an Islamic ideology which aims to take over the world. Think of it like Communism. Certainly, Western Islamophobia exists, but so does Islamic Westphobia. And this isn't to paint everyone with the same brush. They are quite clear though, that Islamism, or whatever you want to call it, exists, and it isn't just a reaction to bigotry and marginalisation. Besides, too often, even the general public notices that this or that young radical, actually came from a nice middle class neighbourhood and was studying medicine at university. It is an ideology. It blocks reasoned thinking. And it has some support at all levels. When the OIC (representing 57 Muslim countries) claims that "universal human rights" are ok but ONLY the ones which don't contradict Islam, that's part of the problem. Yes, Islamophobia exists, but it isn't what's driving the ideology.
the anger that fuels radicalisation is, in fact, very justified
It's not, or at least it's aimed at the wrong people. The young muslim who wasted his time in faith schools should be angry at his parents for denying him a prosperous European life. The young muslima who keeps segregating herself from her European peers by wearing a hijab should be angry at her family as well. It's not us Europeans who require these things from young immigrants. It's their families' misguided desire to be true to their roots which costs them the chance to be a valued part of the European society. It's not exclusion. It's a failure to join.
Almost everywhere is safe. there are tens of thousands of flights a day, one in a month is odds I'll take. It's better odds than me being killed by some moron in a SUV on my drive to work.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
There are other possibilities: a suicide, thrust reverser suddenly opening, rudder torn off...
Anything like that though and you'd think they'd be able to track the plane as it descended. The pilots would be able to get out an 'oh fuck' etc. From what I gather it just sorta disappeared from 40 odd thousand feet. I think we must follow logic and conclude...aliens.
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My opinion that is the best place to do it and I have been saying that since Sept 12,2001. Highest concentration of victims is in security lines.
It isn't confirmed that this is a terrorist attack. Not at all.
Here's my understanding of what's actually happened:
Greek air traffic controllers made contact with the plane in the last check-in, when things were normal and the pilot seemed in good spirits. Thirty minutes later, when everything appeared normal, the Greek air traffic controllers attempted to contact the plane. This was about ten miles from the edge of Greek airspace. There was no response from the pilots. About a minute and a half later, the aircraft dropped from 37,000 feet to 15,000 feet, while swerving to the left and spinning to the right. Contact was lost at 10,000 feet.
That information says it's highly likely that the plane crashed into the Mediterranean. I don't think there's much doubt of that. Beyond that, it's virtually impossible to know what happened. I can think of multiple things that could explain what happened.
1) There may have been a mechanical problem that required the attention of the flight crew and prevented them from responding. A loss of control such as what would occur in a stall could explain these maneuvers.
2) A naferious act by the pilot could explain these behaviors. There have been multiple instances previously of pilot suicide. That could explain these maneuvers.
3) A terrorist attack could explain these maneuvers, especially if the crew was prevented from responding to the calls. That's all speculation.
I don't think it's clear at all that terror was responsible. I do think it's virtually certain the plane crashed into the Mediterranean. It's extremely likely that debris will be found soon because of the large number of search assets in the region and that those waters are heavily trafficked. But it's too early to say it's an act of terror.
Oh dear. You're not on message. You need to be very afraid (terrorists) and concerned (children). You have to big-up the terrorists, exaggerate their capabilities, and greatly exaggerate the danger they pose.
Remember, terrorists use encryption. So don't do that, please.
I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
There it is AGAIN. A leftist, making excuses for Islamists, and trying to deflect the blame and say the whole thing is the West's fault for being so kind and admitting these people. How many Syrian refugees have Islamic countries taken in? How about a word about them? What is *with* the left-wing alliance with Islamists? Why is there always one to jump right up and defend them? You know they execute homosexuals and legally allow spouse abuse?
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
More accurately, ancient aliens, they can travel time, y'know. Where's the greek guy with the electric hair to explain all this?
There it is AGAIN. A leftist, making excuses for Islamists, and trying to deflect the blame and say the whole thing is the West's fault for being so kind and admitting these people. How many Syrian refugees have Islamic countries taken in? How about a word about them? What is *with* the left-wing alliance with Islamists? Why is there always one to jump right up and defend them? You know they execute homosexuals and legally allow spouse abuse?
Liberals defend Islam because the largest critics of Islam are Christian conservatives--the liberals' biggest boogey-man. If conservatives oppose something, liberals feel compelled to defend it. Additionally, there is the liberal commitment to cultural relativism & multiculturalism. If Muslims want to execute homosexuals, abuse their spouses, or arrest women for not wearing hijabs in photos on the internet, it's because those things are their cultural norm, so who are we to judge?
Taking guns away from the 99% gives the 1% 100% of the power.
Muslim population is 10% and growing. Are they integrating with Post-Catholic France? No.
At what point would you know longer call it a "few muslims"?
If you're scared of your govt then you need to further restrict its powers
Vote 3rd Party in 2016 and beyond
How many Syrian refugees have Islamic countries taken in?
About 4.4 million.
(2.7 million in Turkey, 1.5 million in Lebanon and 1.2 million in Jordan).
What was your point?
Watch this Heartland Institute video
"A leftist, making excuses for Islamists, and trying to deflect the blame and say the whole thing is the West's fault for being so kind and admitting these people. "
Leftists also reflexively defended the enemy during the Cold War, but in those days I could see a rationale, since Communism was an exaggerated version of their own belief system. But jihadism is totally opposite to everything our left stands for right now: status of women, prisoner rights, gay rights, worker rights, and use of rape as a standard tactic for exercising power and outbreeding the local population. Our left loves to mock every other religion, but curiously not this particularly bad example of one.
That is not racism since any race can practice Islam.
Tired of my customary (Score:1)
There it is AGAIN. A leftist, making excuses for Islamists, and trying to deflect the blame and say the whole thing is the West's fault for being so kind and admitting these people. How many Syrian refugees have Islamic countries taken in? How about a word about them? What is *with* the left-wing alliance with Islamists? Why is there always one to jump right up and defend them? You know they execute homosexuals and legally allow spouse abuse?
All you had to do to avoid looking like a stupid right wing blowhard was to run a web search. Three moslem countries seem to lead the list:
Turkey 2,748,367
Lebanon 1,500,000
Jordan 1,265,000
Germany 484,000
Greece 496,119
Isn't that also the agenda of Christianity and every other fanatical missionary religion in human history?
With some historical differences.
Both Islam and Christianity are spreading religions. That is, it's a tenet of faith that it's a good thing to spread the faith by conversion. One can compare this to, e.g., Judaism.
Christianity has been spread by both force and by missionary activity. The earliest conversions were almost entirely underground and "bottom up." Many later conversions were "top down". Today it's pretty much universally agreed that conversion cannot be forced and must be personal. Even the most imperialist missionaries of the the 18th and 19th centuries were almost always essentially aid workers as well (building schools, hospitals, etc). Yes, they did have an ulterior motive!
Islam has also been spread by both force and by missionary activity (See the relatively peaceful spread of Islam in e.g. Malaysia and Indonesia). Unlike Christianity, the early and most rapid spread of Islam followed pretty much exactly with the Arab conquest of North Africa through Central Asia, southern Europe through Africa. Islam has historically been linked much more tightly to political apparatus than Christianity--I like to think of it in terms of Islam being a "triumphalist" religion (winning battles and expanding rapidly in the time of Muhammad) versus Christianity as underground of subversive religion--spreading underground through conversion (think even today, the house churches in China). The climax of Islam is Muhammad receiving revelations from god and winning. The climax of Christianity is Jesus being executed for his beliefs and actions. Quite a difference!
Islam has also been much more concerned that Muslims live in Islamic controlled states--not that the polities necessarily have to be 100% Muslim. This is Marshall Hodgson's term "Islamdom." The sphere of the world controlled by Islamic political powers and largely Islamicate (his term, again) in terms of culture, but that may not even be majority Muslim in terms of faith of the population! So historians think that it may have been the 18th century before a majority of Egyptians were Muslim, for instance (after over a millennium of Islamic rule).
In terms of that interesting word jihad, that's widely debated. Some would argue that jihad is never about conversion. I don't believe that. For recent examples, see for instance the area of Afghanistan formerly known as Kafiristan (Lands of the Unbelievers) and now known as Nuristan (Land of Enlightenment) after a jihad of forced conversion in the 1890s. See also the jihads of forced conversion in West Africa in the 18th and 19th centuries. Or, for the matter, the stealing of Nigerian Christian girls and their forced conversion in Nigeria today.
So, that all boils down to, do Christianity and Islam both have as its agenda to "take over the world?" Yes and no :-) I would say that Islamic theology has long had a greater interest in Islamic institutions being in political control than has Christian theology. IMHO, that's one of the reasons Europe was able to overcome religion and secular humanism, the age of reason, and all that good stuff came about.
Jesus, look at you guys - even your strawmen have strawman arguments now. If you want to know what somebody thinks, try asking them instead of playing your six degrees of imaginary argument bullshit. The first thing you are likely to discover is that (big surprise), people are more complex than 'Liberal' and 'Feminist' and the ridiculous mischaracterized personae that you have built up behind those words. I could type out the epic debate where I utterly trounce a 'Conservative Christian' or a 'Trump Supporter' who just keeps thinking the same dumb shit; but I don't, because that is a cartoon character not a person, and because that would be a masturbatory, idiotic thing to do.
But you guys go ahead and give 'em what for though - everybody's cheering for you! And by everybody I mean all the other fictional characters who populate your papier mache worldview.