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Canada's Energy Superpower Status Threatened As World Shifts Off Fossil Fuel (www.cbc.ca)

Robson Fletcher, reporting for CBC News: Canada's status as an "energy superpower" is under threat because the global dominance of fossil fuels could wane faster than previously believed, according to a draft report from a federal government think-tank obtained by CBC News. "It is increasingly plausible to foresee a future in which cheap renewable electricity becomes the world's primary power source and fossil fuels are relegated to a minority status," reads the conclusion of the 32-page document, produced by Policy Horizons Canada. "It's absolutely not pie in the sky," said Michal Moore from the University of Calgary's School of Public Policy. "These folks are being realistic -- they may not be popular, but they're being realistic." Marty Reed, CEO of Evok Innovations -- a Vancouver-based cleantech fund created through a $100-million partnership with Cenovus and Suncor -- had a similar take after reading the draft report.

327 comments

  1. Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I predict these views will be censored and modded to -1. For a community that supposedly favors the free and open exchange of ideas, Slashdot isn't very tolerant of opposing views. Voicing my opinion that AGW is a scam will result in my post being censored to -1. If AGW were real, there would be no need to censor dissenting views; the facts would prove the point far better than any moderation. The censorship is necessary because the facts aren't on the side of the AGW evangelists.

    1. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by SirSlud · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You need to know the definitions of censorship before you cry about it.

      --
      "Old man yells at systemd"
    2. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Not allowing others to mod you down is censoring their views, thus you are the one proposing that others be censored.

      If your views were actually honest, you would not need to censor others and prevent them from moderating you, therefore the reasoning clearly proves that it is not on your side.

    3. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You will probably be modded to -1, not because of censorship, but because your whiny post contains nothing but a self-fulfilling prophecy that nobody will care what you have to say.

      Not that anyone will read this post either. We'll circle the drain together.

    4. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is a mod hole, stop modding it up, it contributes nothing to the conversation.

    5. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 3, Insightful

      We're going to wean ourselves off fossil fuels faster than anyone thinks? I'm not sure how that's going to happen.

      It's clearly going to take a generation or two to transition to electric vehicles, and even then, anyone who needs a long-hauler or high-endurance vehicle isn't going to switch to EVs, as they're not very practical for that. How about air travel? No good alternatives there for liquid hydrocarbon fuels - at least not that I can think of. Ships and ocean-going vessels? I don't think there are any realistic alternatives there. Manufacturing? Nope, lots of oil-based products still needed. And while bio-fuels or alternatives can take up some of this, we're a long, long way from having a realistic capacity to make up the difference. What am I missing here?

      It's obvious that fossil fuel use certainly will wane, and electricity will take up the slack where possible, because that makes sense, but in reading the paper, they seem to skip over a number of thorny issues where there simply weren't yet practical alternatives to fossil fuels.

      "At a minimum, this plausible future would suggest that governments ensure that the risks of further investments in oil and gas infrastructure be borne by private interests rather than taxpayers," the report reads.

      Ah... okay, I get it.

      --
      Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
    6. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by rhazz · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      MODS - Stop being baited by this shit.

      Seriously. Every few topics there is a first-post that starts with "I bet this will be modded down...". It's the same pattern every time. Hell until recently it was even the exact same post content. This is a troll, stop giving it your mod points. Hell someone even pointed it out the other day and linked to a bunch of them.

    7. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I predict these views will be censored and modded to -1. For a community that supposedly favors the free and open exchange of ideas, Slashdot isn't very tolerant of opposing views. Voicing my opinion that AGW is a scam will result in my post being censored to -1. If AGW were real, there would be no need to censor dissenting views; the facts would prove the point far better than any moderation. The censorship is necessary because the facts aren't on the side of the AGW evangelists.

      Modding you down not because of the opposing view - but rather because your post contains NO USEFUL INFORMATION.
      - What is AGW?
      - How is it a scam?
      - Why do you hold the opposing view its a scam vs. the remainder of the public?
      - etc.

      AC posting isn't a bad thing. AC posting without value add gets downvotted like everybody else.

    8. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by Dan+East · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure this has to do with AGW in the first place. The cost of renewables like solar have dropped an incredible amount in recent years. There is no conspiracy or "screwing over" of fossil fuel producers. Look at the historic price of solar panels. We're way under the "magical" $1 per watt price now, which people had been predicting for years. It was well known that low of a price of solar panels would cause significant adoption of solar power generation.

      My other point is fossil fuels are finite. Was Canada expecting to economically produce oil at their current rate for the next hundred years? It's not going to last that long. Whether the transition happens now, or 50 years from now, it's going to happen either way.

      --
      Better known as 318230.
    9. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by dgatwood · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Voicing my opinion that AGW is a scam will result in my post being censored to -1. If AGW were real, there would be no need to censor dissenting views; the facts would prove the point far better than any moderation.

      Around here, we tend to be okay with dissenting views, as long as you provide evidence or interesting reasoning that poses new questions. When your post gets modded down, it will be because we're still waiting for you to provide either of those things....

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    10. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by JoshuaZ · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Your comment has zero evidence or claims to back it up simply a statement of what you believed and a claim that you'd be downvoted which you equated to censorship. In fact, the only moderation to your comment so far has been +3 interesting. It sounds like you have a bit of a persecution complex.

    11. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh please. Do you know how much the land Canada has will appreciate when AGW makes it a temperate climate?

    12. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > I predict these views will be censored and modded to -1.

      I fucking hope so.

      > Voicing my opinion that AGW is a scam will result in my post being censored to -1.

      In the same was that voicing an opinion that Obama was actually born in Taiwan will get you modded to -1.

      > If AGW were real, there would be no need to censor dissenting views

      It's not censoring dissenting views, it's filtering out demonstrably false bullshit.

    13. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by EstanislaoStan · · Score: 1

      I predict these views will be censored and modded to -1. For a community that supposedly favors the free and open exchange of ideas, Slashdot isn't very tolerant of opposing views. Voicing my opinion that AGW is a scam will result in my post being censored to -1. If AGW were real, there would be no need to censor dissenting views; the facts would prove the point far better than any moderation. The censorship is necessary because the facts aren't on the side of the AGW evangelists.

      So are you saying that if something is true it is necessarily evident that it is true?

    14. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by rdelsambuco · · Score: 2

      Quit trying to censor what I do with my mod points.

      --
      I comment occasionally so that I can mod others -1 overrated or -1 offtopic.
    15. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by davester666 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This is a suspect phrase: "cheap renewable electricity".

      It will only be "cheaper" by boosting the prices for all other types of electricity.

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
    16. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by bravecanadian · · Score: 5, Insightful

      This is a suspect phrase: "cheap renewable electricity".

      It will only be "cheaper" by boosting the prices for all other types of electricity.

      Boosting by attempting to properly price the complete costs of existing sources of energy to include all their current externalities?

    17. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Many saw the devaluing of fossil fuels coming back when Global Warming ITSELF was being challenged by actual professional bodies with actual, rational objections to the research of the day. You know, like the provincial professional engineering bodies of Canada. Those slow moving, ultra conservative bodies have even seen the writing on the wall and have started preparations for climate change. Getting these organizations to change is a feat let me tell you.

      At the time there was a lot of talk in the P.Eng. organizations about how the >> $100 / barrel pricing was ridiculous and would serve the single purpose of bringing less costly, ultimately renewable / regional energy sources online.

      i.e. AGW or not is irrelevant, the argument was that the cost structure of the oil sands as a significant energy source would force other more economical energy sources to FINALLY be exploited and more significant efficiencies exploited (electric cars perhaps?). Here we are.

    18. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 5, Informative

      ^

      Even though I staunchly support freedom of speech, part of the first amendment in the US also means you have freedom of association. That means that a private organization can squelch whatever speech they want so long as it's within their own domain. Censorship is only when somebody who is within a public domain or are outside of a domain that you control is curtailing your speech while you are in said domain.

      Because slashdot is neither a public domain, nor a domain that you control, then nothing anybody can do to you can be considered censorship.

    19. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      If you think plastics will go away in 20 years you are a moron.

      Fossil fuels will be as strong in 20 years as they are today. 50 years if trump get's elected.

    20. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My theory is if the people that run things (not politicians, but the wealthy and powerful) get spooked about global warming, you can kiss your cheap coal, gas and oil goodbye.

    21. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by AmiMoJo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If it takes a generation or two to transition to electric vehicles, we are screwed. I think it will probably take one generation. By about 2025 they will be as cheap to buy as petrol cars and much, much cheaper to run. The second hand market will also have taken off.

      The real tipping point is closer than you think. It's not when 90% of vehicles are not using fossil fuels, it's when demand starts to fall significantly enough that it has a major financial impact on Canada and other countries currently doing quite well out of them.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    22. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Not necessarily. As supplies eventually wane, the price of crude may actually skyrocket, and savvy investors could make a killing. Demand is still going to be there. Are we going to have realistic alternatives for technologies that require hydrocarbon-based fuel, like airliners? The ones we're building *right now* will undoubtedly still be in service in 20-30 years.

      Besides, people have been predicting the death of the oil industry since the 50's, and it's always been "20 years out". I guarantee you that twenty years from now, someone else will also be predicting the end of oil "20 years from now". No one is foolish enough to believe oil supplies will last forever, but we've certainly managed to skirt past peak-oil predictions by almost half a century so far. If that track record holds true, I'd say the oil industry is going to be around for another half century at least, until it's eventually no longer economical to drill for natural oil, at which point everyone will turn to biofuel or synthetics, I suppose.

      --
      Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
    23. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by mark-t · · Score: 1

      the facts would prove the point far better than any moderation.

      They would.... if you provided some. Indeed, that your post has been modded up from the default level suggests that facts would *HAVE* to say far more than moderation... since the only factual thing I could find in your post is what I've quoted, above.

    24. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by flyingfsck · · Score: 1

      It just means that Canada will become a plastics super power. Energy is only one of the uses for oil.

      --
      Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
    25. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

      It's obvious that fossil fuel use certainly will wane, and electricity will take up the slack where possible, because that makes sense, but in reading the paper, they seem to skip over a number of thorny issues where there simply weren't yet practical alternatives to fossil fuels.

      Exactly. However, consider the people with whom we are contending. These people didn't major in STEM. They majored in english, sociology or the humanities instead because science, technology, engineering and math were "too hard" for them. They have little or no practical idea of how any of the science or technology of modern life actually works. What they do have are strong (unfounded) opinions and dreams of green utopian nonsense put into their pliable minds by "smart people" and they lash out whenever an engineer or somebody with superior technical knowledge and a more pragmatic outlook comes along and bursts their bubble. Until we have equal or nearly equal substitutes for petroleum, we will continue burning fossil fuels. To ask for sacrifices before then to reduce fossil fuel usage is akin to demanding that some part of humanity have a lower standard of living. Ever tried selling "belt tightening" to the voters? Hell, the "let's all tighten our belts for the great ideological struggle" didn't work for the Soviets in an oppressive and authoritarian society. How much less well will belt tightening sell in a liberal and democratic society? No, the answer to the fossil fuel question must be technological, not political or social. To suggest otherwise is to depart from reality and abandon common sense.

    26. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by GameboyRMH · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's clearly going to take a generation or two to transition to electric vehicles, and even then, anyone who needs a long-hauler or high-endurance vehicle isn't going to switch to EVs, as they're not very practical for that.

      LOLWUT? EVs are already very nearly as practical as gasoline vehicles, even for long travel distances unless you'd rather set some cross-continental speed record than take a short break from driving, and faster-charging, longer-lasting, more energy-dense batteries are being developed all the time. ICEs in new cars will be a rarity within 20 years.

      How about air travel? No good alternatives there for liquid hydrocarbon fuels - at least not that I can think of.

      You're right on this one, at least for large aircraft. Without some unforeseen radical breakthrough in battery technology, large aircraft will be running on liquid hydrocarbon fuels for the foreseeable future - but that could mean biofuels.

      Ships and ocean-going vessels? I don't think there are any realistic alternatives there.

      Batteries and wind for small craft, nuclear and wind for large ones. "Wind" here may mean exotic new forms of sails.

      Manufacturing? Nope, lots of oil-based products still needed.

      Enough to sustain the giant gaping hole in demand from most of the world's land vehicles running on whatever powers the local grid?

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    27. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      "Sustain the giant gaping hole in demand from" could be read as "fill the giant gaping hole in demand from" or "sustain the demand after"...this is what happens when ideas in your brain fight over the output of your fingers.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    28. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm going to mod you up for that.

    29. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you still have signicant [sic] investment in fossil fuels in 20 years you will be a moron.

      I disagree. Investing for growth is not the only profitable investment strategy. Stripping profits year after year from an industry in gradual decline yet still a great cash cow can be a perfectly valid and very profitable investment strategy, especially when the final state of the industry is not extinction but rather a smaller and more sustainable niche as will most likely be the case for fossil fuels for the next century at least. Remember, the stone age didn't end because we ran out of stones and the oil age will not end because we ran out of oil. Indeed, we still use both in our modern lives. My granite counter tops look great and yes, they're still made of stone but nobody invests in mining stone right? you would have to be a moron to do that, right? wrong.

    30. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > That means that a private organization can squelch whatever speech they want so long as it's within their own domain.

      Huh?

    31. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by ColdWetDog · · Score: 3, Funny

      Besides, people have been predicting the death of the oil industry since the 50's, and it's always been "20 years out".

      That's OK, we can replace it with fusion power.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    32. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It just means that Canada will become a plastics super power. Energy is only one of the uses for oil.

      You raise an important fact. Oil is the RAW MATERIAL upon which civilization is built. People should be modest in their oil expenditures to save the precious [though absurdly cheap] substance for nobler uses in industry.

    33. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "You're right on this one, at least for large aircraft. Without some unforeseen radical breakthrough in battery technology, large aircraft will be running on liquid hydrocarbon fuels for the foreseeable future - but that could mean biofuels."

      Hydrogen peroxide for aircraft. As H2O2 degrades it releases pure O2 and water vapor, so clean flying. Peroxide is easier and safer to transport/store than avgas. Germany used H2O2 to power rockets in the war.

      Some of the space-x folks are using hybrid H2O2 and ethanol. The O2 the H2O2 helps the ethanol burn extremely efficiently. Ethanol is cleaner than petroleam (releases half the CO2 that gasoline emits). Its also carbon-neutral because the biomass used to create the ethanol pulled the co2 out of the air. Yes, distillation takes energy but avgas requires a huge amount of distillation, and its DIRTY.

      So radical new technology is not needed - we already have it. What we need is to wean governments off the tit of gas taxes so that other technologies have a chance.

    34. Re: Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Current generations prefer to live in safe walkable city areas that don't need a car to get around. They can walk, take the bus or metro to the shopping mall. That really reduces the demand for gas.

    35. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

      "How about air travel? No good alternatives there for liquid hydrocarbon fuels - at least not that I can think of. Ships and ocean-going vessels? I don't think there are any realistic alternatives there"

      While we wait for electric propulsion for these modes of transportation, we could see fuel from engineered algae. This would be a carbon-neutral technology, because the energy would derive from photosynthesis and atmospheric carbon.

    36. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      I think you should cook up some high concentration hydrogen peroxide. Just to prove how safe it is.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    37. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It Trump gets elected, we'll have 50 years worth of hot air to run the world on.

    38. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by sycodon · · Score: 2, Funny

      Fossil fuels have enabled civilization to progress more in the last 150 years or so they've been in use, than in all of man's history.

      Any "externalities" you might imagine have long since been paid for through the scientific and manufacturing technology that fossil fuels have enabled.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    39. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People rating you post poorly is people freely expressing their ideas that your expression was garbage. Free exchange of ideas implies differing opinions. You should learn to deal with it. You should also develop the ability to determine what is fact and what is fiction.

    40. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by sycodon · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Just because a private organization can censor speech within its domain, doesn't mean that it's not censorship.

      And a private legally censoring opinions is just a morally and ethically objectionable as is a government censoring opinions.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    41. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by Nemyst · · Score: 2, Insightful

      We don't have to wean ourselves off fossil fuels for Canada to lose their "energy superpower" status. Canada's oil comes from Alberta and Saskatchewan for the most part (there's some in Newfoundland too but that's a different matter), and more specifically from tar sands. Tar sands, beyond being the dirtiest source of oil you can find, are also quite hard to extract oil from, requiring the oil prices to stay above a fairly high value. The recent oil price crash has had a serious impact on our oil production: Alberta's economy tanked hard, they started seeing companies close down, the whole lot.

      If we only replaced average commuter cars across the globe, chances are oil prices would dip below what's economically viable for tar sands extraction.

    42. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      www.gizmag.com/dragonfly-df1-helicopter/14539/

      safe as compared to avgas

      An avgas spill is a BIG DEAL while a H2O2 spill is only a risk to the ground it spills on, and only for awhile. Life bounces back there, but not from an avgas spill.

      Avgas = explosive vapor hazard. H2O2 no vapor hazard. Can take a blowtorch to a H2O2 drum without it blowing up

      H2O2 does require special handling as impurities can cause it to degrade explosively. Handling it as carefully as we are required to handle avgas should be just fine.

      I would not want to be in a crash covered in H2O2 thats for sure. But burning avgas is no picnic either.

      Plenty of example from the net and youtube of people using H2O2 safely for a range of things. Do a google search on

    43. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      enabled civilization to progress

      This is the problem that many believe needs to be rectified.

    44. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by sycodon · · Score: 1

      Maybe I should invest in caves.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    45. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What am I missing here?

      Unicorns and the power of positive thinking. Remember all those Disney movies you watched when you were a kid?

    46. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 1

      LOLWUT? EVs are already very nearly as practical as gasoline vehicles, even for long travel distances unless you'd rather set some cross-continental speed record than take a short break from driving, and faster-charging, longer-lasting, more energy-dense batteries are being developed all the time. ICEs in new cars will be a rarity within 20 years.

      My bad, as I actually meant "car generation", not "people generation". That is, it will take a few lifecycles of cars to wear out, people to buy new ones, and for the used cars market to fill with EVs rather than cheap gas-powered cars. EVs are now *just* becoming viable, but until my current car needs replacing, I'm certainly not going to rush out and buy a new EV. However, my *next* car will very likely be all-electric. Certainly by 2030 a sizeable percentages of cars will be electric, if not the majority.

      But my main point was that even if we get to a point where ALL our gas-powered cars are electric (which is currently unrealistic), that still only accounts for 43% of the current oil market. While that's a good start, that's still a pretty hefty dependency on oil.

      --
      Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
    47. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by Curunir_wolf · · Score: 1

      These comments suck

      --
      "Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
      --- Jerry Garcia
    48. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by goose-incarnated · · Score: 2

      I think it will probably take one generation.

      The true believers keep saying this. What the hell - are you all poor at math?

      The average age of cars on the road right now is around 11 years. If every single new car buyer, starting right now, bought an electric car over an ICE car, you have a minimum of 11 years before a mere half the cars on the road are electrics.

      Over a decade - that's your best case scenario, where everybody stops buying ICE immediately and buys electric. But that is not what is happening, is it? So that's your lower bound - 11 years.

      Lets look at infrastructure - best case (for your argument) is that every single person can either charge at home or at work - no infrastructure needed because no one drives past the range of their electric (best-case, remember?). So, we are currently at "best-case for infrastructure"; yet what do we see as far as sales are concerned? The best-selling electric is, I believe, the Nissan Leaf - 43k global sales in 2015. Lets compare to an ICE hatchback of similar price - the VW Polo (sells for less, actually); why, the Polo sold R700k units for the same period!

      For every person that chose a Leaf, about 16000 chose a Polo. And this is not counting other cars. For every person that chose to buy an electric hatchback, there are about 100k others who chose to buy ICE.

      In short, given a best-case scenario for ICE replacements with electric, there is a lower bound of 11 years. There is also poor ICE replacements happening now that can't be explained away by infrastructure. In fact, my thumbsuck calculations say that, given the extremely poor ICE replacement rates in view of all the options, electrics aren't going to replace ICE automobiles on the roads within my lifetime, nor yours.

      Your math is exceptionally poor to think otherwise.

      --
      I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
    49. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      hahaha disregard that, I suck cocks!!

    50. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 1

      I agree that we'll eventually be switching to some sort of manufactured or derived fuel, but it will require a *massive* amount of infrastructure and a massive amount of electricity to power these conversion plants. We can barely meet our electrical energy needs now, let alone when we presumably all drive electric cars and have to plug in each night to power them up. Solar isn't exactly going to help there unless we build some pretty impressive energy storage infrastructure, so we'll need a way to generate larger loads during traditional off-peak hours as well.

      Frankly, it gives me a headache just thinking about how much new infrastructure we're going to need to build. Yes, it's needed, but it's going to be expensive and complicated, and that means it's going to have to happen over a very long period of time. That's just the way these things work. I think anyone who expects some huge turnaround in our energy use in less than fifteen years doesn't have a solid grasp on the scale of the issues involved here.

      I think it's probably a lot more realistic, even if people don't really want to hear this, that we'll see a real turnaround closer to thirty years from now, and even after that, the oil industry will probably still exist for another half century after that in a diminished capacity. Of course, it won't as much of an environmental problem, since we probably won't be simply *burning* it by then, at least not in the same capacity as we do now, but using it where there aren't good alternatives.

      There's really only one way that this could possibly happen sooner, and that's to artificially inflate the cost of oil with a global carbon tax. The problem, of course, is doing it to the point of making alternative forms of energy viable could potentially have a nightmarish effect on the economy, which would tend to interfere with the ability to invest with large infrastructure projects (downturns in economies means less investment, less tax, etc). So, there's a bit of a catch-22 there. The "easier" way is to let oil reserves run dry on their own, which will naturally tend to inflate prices as it becomes more scarce and as it becomes more difficult to extract. That's going to happen no matter what, but the environmental impact of using all that oil is worrysome, of course. But I still believe it's better to look at these things realistically than to let our *desire* to move away from oil cloud our judgement with unrealistic expectations.

      --
      Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
    51. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

      ...fossil fuels are finite. Was Canada expecting to economically produce oil at their current rate for the next hundred years? It's not going to last that long.

      It seems that you are unclear on the scale of the Canadian oil sands. Currently estimated at 1.7 trillion barrels in the Athabasca oil sands alone, If only 25% of that is recoverable given evolved extraction methods then the current production rate is sustainable for roughly 2,500 years.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    52. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fossil fuels are way more expensive than renewable (or nuclear) sources, when you consider that using them up will kill us. We can use up the nuclear resources, and be left with a rather small heap of waste - no big problem there. Bury it and be done. But we simply can't use up the worlds coal+oil. for that will leave us with an atmosphere with more than 1% CO2 and we simply cannot breathe that!

      If you want the true price of fossil fuels, you have to look at the cost of using fossil fuel without emitting the CO2. That is possible, but it comes at a huge cost. So huge it neither competes with nuclear nor renewables.

      Sure, renewables cost more than burning fossil in open air. But the latter option is not on the table for long. (Similiar to how nuclear got more expensive when you couldn't just dump the waste in landfills.) You can keep using fossil like there is no tomorrow, until people die off in large areas downwind of the plants. And then stop abruptly due to loss of customers. Or the change can be forced earlier. Through legislation, through sponsoring the alternatives, or simply through taxing CO2 emissions till they aren't economically viable. The latter option is nice - the other alternatives then emerge naturally through the market. Sponsoring green stuff is not possible in the long run, People better get used to paying whatever energy actually costs where they live. Be it CO2-free fossil or green energy or nuclear.

    53. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Follow the links in that.

      Supposed manufacturer is 404.

      Supposed engine manufacturer appears to be one guy in Mexico.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    54. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Not really. If you can't get your message out through some private channel due to censorship, you use another competing private channel. If slashdot drives you out, find another forum to rant it. You don't reach the same people, but you reach lots regardless. In special cases, you make your own private channel - which you can do in any free-press country. Printing leaflets isn't that expensive, running your own website certainly is within most peoples budget.

      When the government censors, you find all channels shut you out for fear of closure, or they do indeed get closed forcibly. (See Russia and China for examples.) If you try creating your own outlet for stuff the government really hate to see in print, you disappear. If you are really luck, that 'merely' means prison for a long time.

    55. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by careysub · · Score: 1

      (Similiar to how nuclear got more expensive when you couldn't just dump the waste in landfills.)

      This is an entirely imaginary history of nuclear power. The technology has always had a high capital cost up front, which is why it has been unable to attract investors to build plants for nearly 40 years. When there is a choice between a coal (originally) or gas fired plant (currently) the fossil fuel plant has always been the more attractive investment since it has a faster time-to-net-profit. The first nuclear power plants built were cheaper initially because they were built to inadequate safety standards, but they were still relatively expensive (and retrofitting later cost a bundle).

      Power reactor waste has always been dealt with in the same fashion: kept in cooling ponds until the decay heat is at a low level, then store in concrete casks. It has never been dumped anywhere.

      --
      Starships were meant to fly, Hands up and touch the sky - Nicky Minaj
    56. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People rating you post poorly is people freely expressing their ideas that your expression was garbage.

      That doesn't hold true because a downmod here can affect the default visibility of a comment. That's why downmodding is a form of censorship: downmodding can artificially prevent a comment from being seen when it otherwise would have been visible.

      The only way to express disagreement here without resorting to censorship-by-downmodding is to reply to the comment you disagree with using another comment. That way you aren't affecting the visibility of the comment you disagree with.

    57. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by careysub · · Score: 1

      ...

      Besides, people have been predicting the death of the oil industry since the 50's, and it's always been "20 years out".

      Citation please? Any evidence that "people were predicting the death of the oil industry" in the 1950 or 1960s? You wouldn't just be making this up, right?

      --
      Starships were meant to fly, Hands up and touch the sky - Nicky Minaj
    58. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by careysub · · Score: 1

      I think it will probably take one generation.

      The true believers keep saying this. What the hell - are you all poor at math?

      The average age of cars on the road right now is around 11 years. If every single new car buyer, starting right now, bought an electric car over an ICE car, you have a minimum of 11 years before a mere half the cars on the road are electrics.

      Over a decade - that's your best case scenario, where everybody stops buying ICE immediately and buys electric. But that is not what is happening, is it? So that's your lower bound - 11 years.

      ...

      You aren't in a strong position to be mocking people's math abilities. A generation is usually taken as 25 years. Only 10% of the vehicles on the road are 20 years or older. Note also that the number of miles driven per vehicle drops at the high end of the lifespan - you don't see many heavily driven commuter cars that are 20 years old. So the mere fact that they exist and are in use does not mean they are significant over-all contributors to mileage driven or fuel used.

      --
      Starships were meant to fly, Hands up and touch the sky - Nicky Minaj
    59. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The electric cars are here already, no need for 'a generation or two.' Lets see about the thorny issues:

      Range?
      Short only for the small/cheap cars. A Tesla goes far enough that you will want to stop & eat. The car recharges in the same time. Other manufacturers are bringing out similiar long-range models too now. If you really need to drive continuously, you can get rental cars and swap them for fully charged cars now and then. (Similar swapping systems were once used for horses.)

      High endurance? Air travel? Hydrogen power takes care of that. Fuel cells may be tricky, but ordinary internal combustion cars can run on hydrogen too. The hydrogen plane is well tested, but put away because jet fuel currently is cheaper. Making hydrogen is easy enough, and solves some other problems: the need for electricity goes up and down. Nuclear wants steady production, but any excess power can be used to make hydrogen through electrolysis. Windmills & solar are unpopular due to very uneven production - but again, use the windy/sunny days to make hydrogen, hydrogen can be stored for later use on gray windless days.

      Ships are easy.
      They already operate electric ferries in Norway. The weight of batteries is not a problem on a ship. Wind-powered ocean-going ships is old tech. A modern approach might put windmills on the ship instead of sails - this allows sailing against the wind. (Also, a windmill makes more power than mere sails can handle.) And again, hydrogen for those windless days.

      Manufacturing?
      Alternatives exist for every oil product. Oil hasn't been around for long, we did fine before oil too. Sure, replacement materials may cost more, but that can be partially offset by recycling plastic instead of using landfills. You may even 'mine' existing landfills for all the interesting chemicals buried there. Finally, chemical industry can come up with a lot of stuff fast enough - if needed. And the need will come as oil dries up or gets taxed to death.

      Oil was cheap, the new world order will not be as cheap. (if it'd be cheaper, oil wouldn't be here in the first place.) But we can live with that. We have no real need of plastic toys, of buying clothes every month, or replacing TVs more often than once a decade. A permanently cooler economy won't be a problem for a society that has way more than it needs anyway. Green energy cost no more than 4x fossils (and in some cases less, even cheaper. Hydroelectricity is cheaper, if you're lucky enough to get it.) This is not as bad as having 1/4 of what we have today - energy isn't everything. Labor & raw materials won't change that much. And we can keep our stuff a bit longer. . .

      Poorer developing countries will see less problems - oil is exactly the stuff they can't afford much of anyway. Look at the Greek, where everyone already has water heated directly by the sun - and have adjusted to a life where hot water is something that is mostly available in the evening. A green world won't be the same, but it may very well be good enough.

    60. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by careysub · · Score: 1

      ...How about air travel? No good alternatives there for liquid hydrocarbon fuels - at least not that I can think of. Ships and ocean-going vessels? I don't think there are any realistic alternatives there. Manufacturing? Nope, lots of oil-based products still needed.

      And while bio-fuels or alternatives can take up some of this, we're a long, long way from having a realistic capacity to make up the difference. What am I missing here?

      This is what you are missing. Air travel consumes 6% of world liquid fuel production, ships consume 4%, production of plastics and other chemicals consumes 8%. All together this is only 18% of world liquid hydrocarbon consumption. Elimination of 80% of petroleum use would have an astounding effect on the industry.

      --
      Starships were meant to fly, Hands up and touch the sky - Nicky Minaj
    61. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      Someone who assumes the age distribution of motor vehicles is symmetric might want to be a little more cautious accusing others of being bad at math.

    62. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is 100% true, I'm puzzled at the kind of person rating it funny.

      They're probably the same kind of person who really wants to punish the oil companies despite living a first world life of middle class convenience which only exists due to fossil fuel.

    63. Re: Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by Bartles · · Score: 1

      Supplies wane? We hit peak oil 15 years ago. Didn't you read all the peer reviewed papers and listen to the consensus?

    64. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by dbarclay10 · · Score: 1

      I predict these views will be censored and modded to -1. For a community that supposedly favors the free and open exchange of ideas, Slashdot isn't very tolerant of opposing views. Voicing my opinion that AGW is a scam will result in my post being censored to -1. If AGW were real, there would be no need to censor dissenting views; the facts would prove the point far better than any moderation. The censorship is necessary because the facts aren't on the side of the AGW evangelists.

      Some of us are tolerant of opposing opinions, when they're not outrageously harmful. Hopefully most of us are intolerant of misinformation and FUD, and I hope most of us aren't even tolerant of opposing opinions when they're both clearly wrong and actively harmful. At this point it's fairly apparent that anybody touting anti-global-warming "opposing views" are either pathologically misinformed, or astroturfing.

      --

      Barclay family motto:
      Aut agere aut mori.
      (Either action or death.)
    65. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by Teckla · · Score: 1

      It's clearly going to take a generation or two to transition to electric vehicles, and even then, anyone who needs a long-hauler or high-endurance vehicle isn't going to switch to EVs, as they're not very practical for that.

      What do you mean by "high endurance"? Because internal combustion engines are way more complex, finicky, and unreliable than electric motors. ICE's also have a far shorter useful lifespan than electric motors.

      If anything, what we're likely to see is electric vehicles literally falling apart while the electric motors within will still be in fine working condition.

    66. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by Teckla · · Score: 1

      The second hand market will also have taken off.

      I think you're more right than you may realize about this. Electric motors will last far, far, far longer than complex, finicky, issue prone internal combustion engines.

      People will be able to drive electric vehicles until they're literally falling apart, and the electric motors inside will still be in good enough shape to salvage.

    67. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by sycodon · · Score: 1

      We have barely scratched the surface of nuclear power generation. Reactor types, waste disposal, efficiency, all have very promising technologies avenues that have been stymied by anti-nuclear zealots who refuse to all their development.

      They block, delay, sue, and regulate to the point where nuclear is very, very expensive and then turn around and claim nuclear isn't viable because it's too expensive.

       

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    68. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by roman_mir · · Score: 0

      Ha ha ha, because national and transnational governments have a track record of knowing prices of thing, of being able to work within budgets, not to underrepresent, not to underestimate, not to be corrupt? Where is this science.... scratch that word, where is this fiction you are getting high on?

      The companies that mine and sell you fossil fuels make a profit, sure, but you are the ones actually benefitting from the use of these fuels. How does it make any sense whatsoever to tax these companies or to force them to collect extra money from the consumers? By what authority can you force a company that mines and sells a resource to collect more money from a consumer, when everything I'd done globally?

      'Externalities' are meaningless, pricing in a free market is the only source of meaning. You are going to steal that money from that consumer and do what with it? Build nukes via government? If you want nukes built ( and I do want nukes build, I believe that nuclear is some of the cleanest power we can get) get rid of government interference in nuclear power research and generation.

    69. Re: Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, no, people been "saying" it, just like the conspiracies of cars running on water whose inventor was killed by big car manufacturers.

    70. Re: Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just saying, I posted once moderately skeptical of AGW and gained several freaks who chased my +5 comment down a couple days later and discreetly down modded it.

    71. Re: Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wondered about the 25 year fight, as I thought older generations would be closer to 20 and currently around 30 with future being closer to 35.

      http://www.ancestry.ca/learn/learningcenters/default.aspx?section=lib_Generation

      Suggests even in previous generations, what was thought to be 20-25 is more likely around 30. So I'd suggest the next generation be closer to 35 than 25.

    72. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by smithmc · · Score: 1

      This is like one of those Facebook posts that starts "I'll bet you won't share/like this..." A cheap, disappointing ploy, which is bad, and you should feel bad.

      --
      Downmodding is the refuge of the weak. Don't downmod, make a better argument!
    73. Re: Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by BlackSabbath · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "...Fossil fuels have enabled civilization to progress more in the last 150 years or so they've been in use, than in all of man's history..."

      A similar assertion could have been made for slavery. However that's not a valid reason alone to keep it.

    74. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

      Manufactured biofuel as a use for fluctuating power sources like solar would take a lot less infrastructure than trying to shoehorn the same power sources into the grid. There is general agreement in the utility industry that a total grid redesign would be needed to accommodate fluctuating renewables.

    75. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by WolfWithoutAClause · · Score: 2

      > Any "externalities" you might imagine have long since been paid for through the scientific and manufacturing technology that fossil fuels have enabled.

      So, you're saying that (for example) the tens of thousands of people that die each year, in say, the UK alone, from largely invisible air pollution, much of which is due to burning fossil fuels, has been 'paid for'???

      Sorry, no, you just pegged my bullshit meter.

      --

      -WolfWithoutAClause

      "Gravity is only a theory, not a fact!"
    76. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's kind of hilarious how you talk about someone else having poor math. How does 43k times 16000 become 700k? You're off by three orders of magnitude!

      It's true that currently, the worldwide percentage of electric cars in use is only about 0.1% but they are already 1% of sales and that figure is doubling each year. In some places it's much more: in Norway, one out of three cars sold is electric. If it takes half a generation - ten years - to reach 50% sales worldwide, then after another ten years there will be more electric cars than ICE powered ones on the road. These numbers are not outlandish at all, it assumes slower growth than we've seen in the last few years.

      But it's also entirely possible that we simply reach a tipping point in early 20's where the market flips suddenly because electrics become more affordable and convenient than ICE cars. The trend lines are going in that direction. Batteries are rapidly becoming cheaper, and electric motors are much simpler than an ICE so the production cost of a mass produced electric car will inevitably drop below that of an equivalent ICE vehicle.

    77. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Politeness is a decent human characteristic that should be encouraged -- with caveats. Unfortunately the current vogue definition of censorship is... "if i have a website I get to chose what I consider offensive". Then there is free speech... as in "let the words stand even if I am offended by them"

      If the latter is the concern... someone should be able to say you lazy n-gger. Or Mexicans are r-pists. Or Muslims are all terrorists. Or gays are all perverts. Or a women's place is in the kitchen. Or (insert any stereotype that might offend someone here). This isn't because what the person is saying is reasonable. Only a royal f-ckwad would believe in stereotypes. Stereotypes are essentially the domain of ultra nationalist and middle age fundamentalist mystics. Guilt through association and poor logic rather than judgment based on causality. My cow died. My neighbors look funny. Burn the witches.

      However we must protect the free speech of even of fuckw-ds to ensure that the rights of those that actually know what they are taking about.

      Of note here... Slashdot, usually a champion of free speech, now has a "lameness filter". It forced me to use dashes for some words. As well intentioned as this automated censorship may be.. it is a flawed outlook that harms free speech. All that happens in the real world is the ogres move on to conjugate at other websites that support their ogre causes. This only further distorts their sense of reality. They organized into groups rather than get shot down as individuals. (see Trump's supporters for real world evidence of this)

    78. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by amiga3D · · Score: 1

      I don't know dude. I'm not a global warming evangelist but I've got to say that the world is getting warmer. Thermometers are pretty hard to argue with. You can argue about what's causing it maybe but the fact is that it's getting hotter over all.

    79. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm Canadian. I didn't realize we were a "superpower" at anything. I'm thrilled if we have lost any alleged superpower because that we would mean we once had a super power. I've always wanted a super power. Better to have once had a super power and lost it than to never have had.

      Woo hoo. Can-a-da Can-a-da. We're number 2. We're number 2. Or maybe 17th. Whatever. Time to celebrate with a beer.

    80. Re: Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But rednecks don't get erections from driving electric cars, so they will keep buying fossil fuel cars even when they are more expensive.

    81. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by goose-incarnated · · Score: 1

      is

      You aren't in a strong position to be mocking people's math abilities. A generation is usually taken as 25 years.

      Actually I am, parent said 'by the year 2025'. Perhaps you missed it?

      --
      I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
    82. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by goose-incarnated · · Score: 1

      Someone who assumes the age distribution of motor vehicles is symmetric might want to be a little more cautious accusing others of being bad at math.

      I said best-case scenario for parents argument. The age of cars is not symmetric, it's skewed towards older cars: when someone buys a new car their old car does not vanish, it's sold on to someone else, so we're looking at a lot more than 11 years before half the cars are electric.

      --
      I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
    83. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by Dog-Cow · · Score: 1

      Without all the modern technology, including bio-medical, how many people would be dying each year? You are looking at the cost to an individual, but society doesn't work that way.

      We are unquestionably better off with the technology we have, by all reasonable measures. The technology was and is enabled by cheap energy.

    84. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      Even though I staunchly support freedom of speech, part of the first amendment in the US also means you have freedom of association. That means that a private organization can squelch whatever speech they want so long as it's within their own domain.

      Um... no, Freedom of Assocation doesn't mean that. It doesn't mean anything even remotely close to that.
       

      Because slashdot is neither a public domain, nor a domain that you control, then nothing anybody can do to you can be considered censorship.

      No, Mr Pointless Pedant, it can't be strictly considered censorship. But that doesn't mean, as you try to imply, that squelching alternative viewpoints isn't happening. It most certainly is, to the point where Slashdot is practically synonymous with groupthink.

    85. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      The average age of cars on the road right now is around 11 years.

      The interesting thing about the average age of cars on the road in America is that it correlates fairly strongly with the state of the economy... Good times come, the average age drops. Bad times come, the average age increases. But ever since 2008, the average has been moving in a single direction - steadily upward.

    86. Re: Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's a timezone thing too. As the day shifts away from the US, where most of the disinformation dollar has been spent, the anti-science comments tend to suffer. Just sayin'

    87. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      While the parent may be a silly git, your point is incorrect.

      Posts responding to his post are free speech. Modding him to -1 so you can't see what he said is partial censorship (not complete since we can still pull it up with effort) (and not successful since there are so many responses that you can easily use "see parent" to see his post).

      But deleting/hiding his speech is censorship (just not religious or government censorship). Responding to his post and calling him a whiny idiot isn't censorship.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    88. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      How long is a "generation"? 20 years? 30 years?

      Also, we need to agree on a definition of "transition". I was only considering new car sales. It also depends where you are. In Japan the average age of a car is well under 11 years, and the majority sold today are hybrids.

      As I said, the tipping point for purchase price at all levels is likely to be around 2025, and for average to high price vehicles it will be well before then. Of course, that ignores the lifetime running costs, so smart people will have switched long before, probably around 2020. Is 9 years a "generation"?

      My maths skills are fine thanks, it's just that you reacted angrily without bothering to check your assumptions.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    89. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by goose-incarnated · · Score: 1

      It also depends where you are. In Japan the average age of a car is well under 11 years, and the majority sold today are hybrids.

      Oh? That's not what the manufacturers say - 6m new cars registered between jan-2014 and jan-2015, of which 1m were hybrids.

      How about the average age? From the manufacturers themselves , the average age calculated from the table "vehicles in use by year of first registration as of end of march 2014", works out to between 11 and 12 (average percentage of first registrations in any given year = 5; that puts it squarely between 11 and 12 years old).

      So, no, both your assertions are refuted by the manufacturers themselves. The average age of cars on the road in Japan is between 11 and 12, and hybrids account for roughly 1/6th the total registrations.

      My maths skills are fine thanks, it's just that you reacted angrily without bothering to check your assumptions.

      Me correcting you is not "reacting angrily". Both your assertions are provably and (trivially so) false. I do not understand why you believe that the average age of cars in japan is lower than 11, and I do not understand why the hell you would think hybrids are in the majority if sales.

      --
      I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
    90. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can't speak for anyone else... but I'm looking forward to swapping out an ICE engine for electric. No techie lock-in nor DRM. I want a "basic, reliant automobile" that doesn't require a mechanic with a PHD or proprietary dealership computer diagnostics.

      What's really funny... I might just be able to pull the motor and put in batteries... the motors could be built into the wheels! Instant 4WD with no differentials or transmission!

    91. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In principle, you are right. However, only a small fraction of recycled cars have major powertrain problems. The vast majority have issues in areas where an electric car is not very different. Moreover, I wonder how you plan to pass mandatory periodic safety inspections in a car that is starting to 'literally fall apart'.

    92. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      LOLWUT? EVs are already very nearly as practical as gasoline vehicles, even for long travel distances

      Great! So which electric car would you recommend for a holiday with the first stop around 1200km from home?

      ICEs in new cars will be a rarity within 20 years.

      The average car is recycled after 19 years. Well over 99% of cars built today are ICE-powered and I doubth that figure will be much lower next year or even a couple of years from now. Electric vehicles may be a large fraction of new cars in twenty years, I seriously doubt that ICE cars will suddenly be rare in twenty years.

    93. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by dave420 · · Score: 1

      People aren't "censoring" you, they just disagree with your childish interpretation of the scientific method, and modding your drivel appropriately. Or should everyone be at +5 all the time so your poor little feelings don't get hurt?

    94. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by dave420 · · Score: 1

      So that means it makes sense to screw us over now? Your argument makes no sense at all.

    95. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The energy technologies we used were the best options available at one time. That doesn't mean it's the best for all time. The fact that technology progressed in the past due to availability of cheap energy from fossil fuels which we, at the time, couldn't hope to match from any other source doesn't pay for externalities today, it balanced against externalities then. Nobody is proposing we jump in a time machine and prevent coal and oil from ever being burnt for electricity or transportation. Nobody is proposing we abandon technologies we already have. In fact, we're suggesting that sticking with coal and oil is now the anti-technology position that is going to hold back modern technology (since resources have to be re-routed to deal with air pollution, etc.).

      The proposition is: perhaps 100 years ago, the total cost including externalities of fossil fuels was less (substantially less) than all other alternatives. But now, the total cost including externalities is greater than several alternatives for many, many scenarios. The exact turning point is a matter for debate, and perhaps you'll even advance a reasonable argument that the turning point is not in the past at all but actually X years in the future, but there can be no doubt that it exists. Even aside from the environmental argument, natural fossil fuel prices are overall on the rise since it doesn't renew on human timescales and we already have to seek less and less convenient locations to extract them. Meanwhile, renewable prices are on a downtrend, and the raw material prices for nuclear remain relatively stable compared to fossils.

    96. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by Plus1Entropy · · Score: 2

      You can also pull the filter settings all the way to the right, like I have them by default. The mods don't dictate what is visible to you or not, you do.

      --
      Only crack the nuts that crack. You don't put the ones that don't crack in the sack.
    97. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by houghi · · Score: 2

      Uhm, no. When my Uncle fobids me to tell the family he slept with the neighbour, that is censorship.
      When a company tells me not to talk about anything, but leave it to the PR department, that is censorship.
      Me telling my mom to 'shuuut uuuuup' when she tells everybody how cute I was as a baby? Censorship!

      Just because it is allowed, logical, legal and even morally right does not mean it has a different name.

      So yes, if /. deletes my postings, it is called censorship.

      http://www.merriam-webster.com...
      http://www.dictionary.com/brow... and many more places.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    98. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      And a private legally censoring opinions is just a morally and ethically objectionable as is a government censoring opinions.

      What do you mean by "a private legally censoring opinions"?

      I don't think most people would have a problem with a theatre asking someone who won't stop talking to leave, even though it's by some wide definition "censoring" them. On the other hand, if you mean using the civil legal process to silence critics, then yes that is quite objectionable but not really censorship, just abuse of the legal system.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    99. Re: Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by pastafazou · · Score: 2

      Horseshit. Slavery has been around since before the creation of writing. How are you going to assert that it enabled civilization to progress more than without it? There are plenty of places in the world today that still practice slavery, and none of them are advancing faster than the non-slavery countries of the world. Your comment should be modded down to Troll status, it's definitely not insightful.

    100. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The reason the average age of a car in Japan is less than 11 years is because it is very difficult for an older car to pass the inspections in Japan. They created a system to force old cars off of the road.

    101. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And the transition to cleaner fuels and energy sources will be 1) faster than initial industrialization and 2) allow man to reach new heights.

    102. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You don't understand the energy industry or how markets value it. Despite approximately constant prices, coal use in the US declined only about 15% over the last 10 years, yet the entire US industry has effectively collapsed. The market cap of coal companies has dropped by a staggering 85%+ over the same time frame and several of the largest producers have declared bankruptcy.

    103. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by cant_get_a_good_nick · · Score: 1

      Why the hell are you bitching about downmods if you're posting as AC anyway? pre-whining?

    104. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by AlterEager · · Score: 1

      Peroxide is easier and safer to transport/store than avgas.

      Hahahahaha!

      You win the internets with this one!

    105. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by AlterEager · · Score: 1

      If anything, what we're likely to see is electric vehicles literally falling apart while the electric motors within will still be in fine working condition.

      That's what people say about Tesla, anyway.

    106. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by 0111+1110 · · Score: 1

      It sounds like you've never actually been to a third world country. So let me assure you that third worlders can be counted on to use whatever transportation technology is the cheapest. So if you want developing countries to use it you'd better hope it is the cheapest way to get from A to B.

      --
      Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
    107. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by vandamme · · Score: 1

      ... or the continued slide of cost of PV panels and installations.

    108. Re: Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by Curate · · Score: 1

      Did you mean the abolition of slavery? We've advanced farther and been more productive since abolition than before abolition. Keep in mind, I'm not necessarily implying causation.

    109. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ain't that the truth. Slashdot is a very leftwing space, surprisingly. And the leftwingers here do not like having their groupthink disturbed - unsurprisingly. I've watched my karma plummet any time I run against their preferred worldview.

    110. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by slashdotwannabe · · Score: 1

      Any "externalities" you might imagine have long since been paid for through the scientific and manufacturing technology that fossil fuels have enabled.

      Cite? What about the continuing externalities?

      --
      This comment is my opinion and does not represent an official position of Donald Trump or others I do not work for
    111. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by slashdotwannabe · · Score: 2

      Without all the modern technology, including bio-medical, how many people would be dying each year?

      This is a false dichotomy to a straw man argument. Nobody is questioning the advances that non-renewables have enabled, nor do we currently face a choice between modern technologies and non-renewable fuels. Indeed, as you say, it is modern technologies that are making the shift to a renewable-based economy possible. But the shift is also inevitable, and necessary. The only questions revolve around how quickly, how much cost, and how much disruption the transition will engender.

      You are looking at the cost to an individual, but society doesn't work that way.

      Eventually it has to. Eventually the cost to individuals becomes so common and so high that society must adapt. Eventually we must actually account for the costs to future generations that we currently pay lip service to.

      --
      This comment is my opinion and does not represent an official position of Donald Trump or others I do not work for
    112. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by slashdotwannabe · · Score: 1

      Actually, the word you're looking for is "moderation". That's what down, or upvotes are created by: moderators. It is only through the collective voting of all of them that a post is elevated or buried. When one person does it, it's censorship. When a group of people do it, it's democracy.

      --
      This comment is my opinion and does not represent an official position of Donald Trump or others I do not work for
    113. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by slashdotwannabe · · Score: 1

      @rhazz isn't trying to "censor" you. Look up the definition of the fucking word. They are rightfully pointing out a documented occurrence, and suggesting a rational course of action.

      --
      This comment is my opinion and does not represent an official position of Donald Trump or others I do not work for
    114. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by petervandervos · · Score: 1

      I have followed your links but without trucks and busses they registered about 4.5 million passenger cars. The other links said MORE than 1 m hybrids were sold, not the exact number.

      For last year I found this page: http://www.best-selling-cars.c...

      I don't know which cars are hybrids but number 1 (Toyota Aqua) and 2 (Toyota Prius) are both hybrids. Maybe it's not more than other cars but it still amazes me how many hybrids are sold.

    115. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure which way you envision the skew. The distribution of car ages is a type of life distribution, which is commonly modelled by exponential or Weibull distributions. This type of distribution results whenever you have new items (people, cars, widgets) that are created (nothing is less than 0 years old) and fail, either at a constant rate (a few types of plants and animals) or a rate that accelerates with age (pretty much everything else, including cars). Characteristically, the median is lower than the mean. That means that the majority of cars are younger than the mean age. Your statement that it would take at least the mean age (11 years) to replace half the cars is false: 50% replacement time is the median age, which is less.

      In terms of actual replacement time, there's no reason why the mean or median age of cars has to be as high as it is. My ten year old car is pretty much just like the latest model, except for the lack of Bluetooth (which I added myself). In the past, when new models were worth upgrading to, the mean/median age was lower. When electric vehicles have some real desirable advantages over gas the upgrade cycle will probably shorten. It will go even faster as infrastructure is switched over and gas becomes more expensive. Even faster if high carbon taxes are implemented.

    116. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by simonreid · · Score: 1

      Citation please? Any evidence that "people were predicting the death of the oil industry" in the 1950 or 1960s? You wouldn't just be making this up, right?

      Well that was hard to find... Peak Oil

      The idea that the rate of oil production would peak and irreversibly decline is an old one. In 1919, David White, chief geologist of the United States Geological Survey, wrote of US petroleum: "... the peak of production will soon be passed, possibly within 3 years."

    117. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by goose-incarnated · · Score: 1

      The other links said MORE than 1 m hybrids were sold, not the exact number.

      True, but note that the previous year was a great deal short of 1m. I don't think it jumped from 678k to 679k to 2m. It's more likely to be slightly over the 1m mark, which still makes them around 25% of sales.

      I'd really like to see the actual numbers after 2014. A lot of the hyperbole from AmiMoJo is along the lines of "The majority of cars in Japan are hybrids", "Electric likely to be majority by 2025", etc. I seriously doubt *that* claim, seeing as how 2025 is 8.5 years away and even if every single new-car buyer bought an electric car starting today, because people are keeping their cars for 11 years and longer, the majority of owners won't even have purchased a car by then.

      --
      I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
    118. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by goose-incarnated · · Score: 1

      Characteristically, the median is lower than the mean. That means that the majority of cars are younger than the mean age. Your statement that it would take at least the mean age (11 years) to replace half the cars is false: 50% replacement time is the median age, which is less.

      That assertion is only true if the item being replaced is thrown away; cars are resold, hence the new car that is purchased does not displace the old car from the road.

      --
      I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
    119. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I couldn't disagree more. If you come over to my party and start shouting obscenities and being rude to everyone it is not morally or ethically objectionable to tell you to leave. The same is true on private servers, especially when the community itself is merely downvoting the message, not deleting. The same logic applies even in cases without obscenities and insults.

    120. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Biodiesel is the alternative for planes and larger vehicles. Further, this summary (of course I didn't RTFA!) isn't talking about a complete transition, but relegation to minority status. The most plausible plan I've seen for that is the Rocky Mountain Institute's Reinventing Fire plan, which has a minority amount of energy coming from of natural gas in 2050.

    121. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by fatwilbur · · Score: 1

      I think you're way underestimating how many families tow a trailer or boat out to the lake for a weekend.

      And sorry, the charging problem has not yet been solved. Nobody is going to wait 30 minutes at a "gas" station for an 80% fill.

    122. Re: Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Progress towards extinction.

    123. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      I think you're way underestimating how many families tow a trailer or boat out to the lake for a weekend.

      They already have some ridiculous American pickup for this. They are the few who actually "need" (as in, have a real use for) those huge monstrosities.

      And sorry, the charging problem has not yet been solved. Nobody is going to wait 30 minutes at a "gas" station for an 80% fill.

      They will, but not often, because it will be rare. Their cars will leave home with a "full tank" every morning. How often would you need to go to the gas station if you had a full tank every morning?

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    124. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by samwichse · · Score: 1

      Perhaps you need to read what he said about 2025:

      "By about 2025 they will be as cheap to buy as petrol cars and much, much cheaper to run."

      I can buy that.

    125. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by toddestan · · Score: 1

      Japan also has a pretty healthy export market for their used cars. A lot end up in Australasia and New Zealand, being that they are also left hand drive countries. Ex-JDM cars can be imported into Canada after 10 years, I believe (in the US, you typically have to wait until they are 25 years old to be considered a "classic").

  2. no shit sherlock ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    no shit sherlock ?

  3. Doesn't really matter. by johnnys · · Score: 4, Informative

    In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't really matter. The world will always need hydrocarbons, so they will always be valuable. They are needed for plastics, chemicals and all kinds of useful things besides fuel.

    --
    Sometimes the "writing on the wall" is blood spatter...
    1. Re:Doesn't really matter. by evolutionary · · Score: 1

      and Lumber...it's one of our biggies...that and being (mostly) friendly with everyone..

      --
      "Imagination is more important than knowledge" - Einstein
    2. Re:Doesn't really matter. by felrom · · Score: 1

      Additionally, hydrocarbons wont be replaced for use in more than a small minority of air travel, ocean travel or rail travel in my lifetime. Cars, yeah, you probably wont be able to buy a new ICE car 40 years from now. The rest of our modes of transport will still be hydrocarbon then.

      Also, we've seen how well utility scale solar is working out at Ivanpah. Utility scale solar is a dead-end. Utility scale wind power is limited in deployable area. The environmentalists wont allow tidal or nuclear. So, we're left with fossil fuels.

      Personally, I'm long XOM, CVX, RDS, COP, and a whole host of smaller upstream, midstream and downstream companies.

    3. Re:Doesn't really matter. by rhazz · · Score: 1

      Sure they'll always be valuable, but if fossil-fuels aren't being used heavily for energy then the demand will drop significantly from what it is today. Multi-billion dollar investments in oil pipelines (with long ROI) today will be a waste of resources if demand drops heavily in 10 years.

    4. Re:Doesn't really matter. by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 1

      All that lumber wouldn't do you much good if you also didn't have lots of Lumberjacks.

      --
      #DeleteChrome
    5. Re:Doesn't really matter. by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      Why will the world always need hydrocarbons? Plastics will likely be grown by bacteria. Lubricants can be manufactured in other ways. I doubt hydrocarbons will be a significant part of any industrial or manufacturing chain in a century or two.

      I'm sorry your stock portfolio is heavily leveraged towards fossil fuels, but making believe that they'll always be pumping long-chain hydrocarbons out of the ground, or even simpler hydrocarbons like methane, is little more than wishful thinking. I give your portfolio another 20 years before it really begins to nose dive.

      The age of hydrocarbons is drawing to a close.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    6. Re:Doesn't really matter. by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      Which is why in both Europe and North America renewables are growing supplier of electricity.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    7. Re:Doesn't really matter. by MouseR · · Score: 3, Funny

      Canada's got wood.

    8. Re:Doesn't really matter. by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      Nah, by then there will be lots of money in transporting water. Infrastructure somehow always gets used.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    9. Re:Doesn't really matter. by Curunir_wolf · · Score: 2

      You've clearly never seen Beyond Thunderdome. People need hydrocarbons whether we pull them out of the ground, produce them in wetware chemical factories, harvest them from Jupiter's moons, or produce them from processed pig shit. Ask some of your mates from high school who managed to go to college and get an industrial engineering degree.

      Unless, of course, you want to kill off most of the human population, get most of the rest to live subsistence lifestyles like we did 2000 years ago (except for a few elites that live as kings). That's the goal of many, just don't know if you're among them or not.

      --
      "Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
      --- Jerry Garcia
    10. Re:Doesn't really matter. by Yaztromo · · Score: 1

      In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't really matter. The world will always need hydrocarbons, so they will always be valuable. They are needed for plastics, chemicals and all kinds of useful things besides fuel.

      The world will always need toilet paper. Yet it doesn't really seem all that valuable.

      Sure, certain uses for fossil fuels will continue -- passenger and freight airlines, heavy trucks, rail, heavy freighters, and plastics. However, is supply continues to outpace demand -- and that will be true if demand continues to not live up to supply -- then no, hydrocarbons won't be all that valuable (at least on a per unit basis).

      We're already seeing this now. As prices have decreased, production has actually risen as companies try to make up for the low price by selling larger quantities. Some smaller producers simply can't keep up, and have already been going out of business, particularly in places where the production costs are high such as here in Canada.

      A global oversupply of hydrocarbons also hurts Canada thanks to geography. We only have one easily accessible market, and that's here in North America (and then, primarily Canada and the US). If the Middle East is able to provide a stable supply of sufficient and cheap hydrocarbons to all of Europe, Asia, and Africa due to a decline in demand, that's going to spell major troubles for Canada's hydrocarbon industries. Especially with the US ramping up more capacity via fracking.

      Canada's oil is only economical when prices are high, as the cost to extract is amongst the highest in the industry. If world-wide demand drops even 15% in ten years time, it's going to be bad news for Canada's petroleum industry.

      Yaz

    11. Re:Doesn't really matter. by KozmoStevnNaut · · Score: 0

      I'd love to kill off most of the population. ~80% of people are a waste of space and oxygen, anyway.

      --
      Eat the rich.
    12. Re:Doesn't really matter. by vandamme · · Score: 1

      ... and hydro. Some places even have sunlight, eh?

  4. oh noes! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    said Michal Moore from the University of Calgary's School of Public Policy.

    They're everywhere!

  5. Canada? Superpower status? by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

    What made them think they ever had that?

    Anyway, the good news is hearing we are seriously breaking the habit. But energy is a trivial issue... How are we going to use it to distribute water to where it is needed and away from where it isn't?

    --
    “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    1. Re:Canada? Superpower status? by iONiUM · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I suppose it depends on your definition of "superpower." From the wikipedia article, Canada's GDP is 10th in the world, and 15th per capita (nominal). It's a first world nation with a very high HDI. It's also a member of the G7 nations, which represent 64% of the world's wealth.

      I think one thing people overlook is that Canada has a massive treasure trove of natural resources and a very good setup for a modern economy (good income equality, good infrastructure). This combined with a high rate of immigration means the population is growing and companies will flourish (ideally). But, you never know. Resources are 20% of the GDP of Canada (http://www.nrcan.gc.ca/publications/key-facts/16013) so if that all went away at once it'd be a huge problem. I doubt it would go down like that though.

    2. Re:Canada? Superpower status? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Due to NAFTA, if Canada trades water with the USA, Canada would not be allowed to stop trading water, so it is unlikely that Canada will ever sell water to the USA, because it is a tap that can not be closed.

    3. Re:Canada? Superpower status? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Only by the grace of Her Majesty is Canada allowed to exist.

      God save the Queen!

    4. Re:Canada? Superpower status? by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

      Um, you completely missed the message. There is no need to buy water from anybody.

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    5. Re:Canada? Superpower status? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I suppose it depends on your definition of "superpower." From the wikipedia article, Canada's GDP is 10th in the world, and 15th per capita (nominal). It's a first world nation with a very high HDI. It's also a member of the G7 nations,(...)

      Funny, innit? My country is the 5th GDP in the world and does not have a sit in G7, besides being derided as a 3rd World nation. Strange world this one of ours.

      Captcha: circus

    6. Re:Canada? Superpower status? by twnth · · Score: 1

      I think the superpower reference is based the volume of recoverable oil in Canada. In particular the bitumen in the oil sands, but also conventional oil and natural gas elsewhere on the prairies and off Newfoundland.

      Throw in the existing hydroelectric, and potential for a lot more.

      We won't talk about all the coal. Coal is bad... m'kay? :)

    7. Re:Canada? Superpower status? by iONiUM · · Score: 1

      Which country are you referring to? Usually the UK is the 5th nation on the GDP list, so it can't be that one.

    8. Re:Canada? Superpower status? by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      Good. Can we have it?

      Thanks for all your hard work.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    9. Re:Canada? Superpower status? by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      Forgot to mention - all wars are resource wars.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
  6. They will be really screwed by jfdavis668 · · Score: 1

    When everyone who is threatening to move to Canada actually moves there.

    1. Re:They will be really screwed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To move to Canada, one needs a degree of some sort that adds value to oneself. A liberal arts degree or other "McDegree" means you're not moving there.

      Sponsorship by a company is another way, but most people cannot get that.

    2. Re:They will be really screwed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To move to Canada, one needs a degree of some sort that adds value to oneself.

      So it is ok to be a University-grade parrot, but no ok to be a creative drop out like many of those who created the tech world we're living in. That's funny.

  7. Hydroelectric? by fluffernutter · · Score: 4, Informative

    We have more hydroelectricty than we can use... Does this not qualify as renewable energy?

    --
    Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    1. Re:Hydroelectric? by Frederic54 · · Score: 1

      Yup, in QC electricity is super cheap, bring electric cars as many as you want!

      --
      "Science will win because it works." - Stephen Hawking
    2. Re:Hydroelectric? by dskoll · · Score: 2

      Most of the relatively-easily accessible sources of hydroelectricity in Canada have already been developed. And hydro is really inconvenient because the good sources of energy tend to be far away from population centres that want to consume the energy.

      And while Quebec has plenty of hydroelectric resources, that's not true in other provinces. In Ontario, nuclear energy accounts for more than 46% of our electricity, and hydro about 28.4%.

      I do agree that in the medium- to long-term, we have to get ourselves off the huge fossil-fuel habit. But not sure it will be so easy.

    3. Re:Hydroelectric? by jklovanc · · Score: 0

      1. We don't have more hydroelectricity than we can use. We are still building and are running out of places to build.
      2. It does not qualify as renewable as the basins behind the dams become silted up and eventually become useless. It takes a while but it is not renewable.
      3. Hydroelectric dams have major impact on land, fish, and wildlife. Most deer winter in valley bottoms. If that area is flooded the deer die.

      Hydroelectric seems great until one looks at the damage dams cause.

    4. Re:Hydroelectric? by evolutionary · · Score: 1

      Problem is transmitting the surplus power far enough distances without losing too much. I imaging the range for power transmissions isn't great. And of course, the rest of Canada would probably want first dibs, unless the US was willing to make electricity that much more expensive for the benefit of a country most people citizens/residents in the USA barely knew until Rob Ford was our mayor. that is.. ;-)

      --
      "Imagination is more important than knowledge" - Einstein
    5. Re:Hydroelectric? by denis-The-menace · · Score: 2

      But Ontario has QC beat.
      Ontario PAYS to get rid of excess electrical power.

      --
      Obama's legacy: (N)othing (S)ecure (A)nywhere and (T)error (S)imulation (A)dministration
    6. Re:Hydroelectric? by c · · Score: 4, Interesting

      We also have massive amounts of uranium, just in case the whole renewable energy thing doesn't work out so well.

      --
      Log in or piss off.
    7. Re:Hydroelectric? by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      Sure, but that's a problem that needs a solution quick as EVs become more popular.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    8. Re:Hydroelectric? by fluffernutter · · Score: 2

      1. Could have sworn I have read otherwise, but I'm too lazy to look it up
      2. We have had dams in our province that have been in operation for over thirty years.. Are they digging them out frequently in order to keep them operational? I have never heard of this.
      3. We have plenty of deer. I'm sure hunting is a far greater threat to wildlife populations and we don't let that stop us.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    9. Re:Hydroelectric? by dskoll · · Score: 1

      Well, no, it's certainly possible to transmit electricity very long distance without unacceptable losses. But it's not cheap. The state-of-the-art for long-distance transmission is high-voltage DC (HVDC) transmission that can transmit GW of power at hundreds of kV.

    10. Re:Hydroelectric? by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      1. Considering that we are building the Site C dam it seems that there is probably a need for more electricity that we can already generate.
      2. 30 years is a very short time. I am talking about a hundred years. Over that time millions of tons of silt are deposited and would be unfeasible to "dig out". It takes a long time for a dam to become silted up but when it does it is irreversible.
      3. I am also taking about elk and caribou that we already have few of. Then there are the bear and wolves that eat the deer. Then there is the issue of interrupting migration paths. Hunting does not wipe out entire populations in an area while dams do. A dam is basically an ecological disaster for the area.

    11. Re:Hydroelectric? by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      The thing is, there are a lot of people in need around where the dams are. So if run properly, labor supply shouldn't be a problem. Unfortunately that doesn't seem to have been done yet. Also, necessity yields invention.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    12. Re:Hydroelectric? by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      *not cheap*... Sounds like a roadblock for main stream EV use. How long before transmitting the power for them gets too expensive? Right now people are setting them up at their shops because it is fashionable and gets media attention; but how long before supply becomes a problem.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    13. Re:Hydroelectric? by PPH · · Score: 2

      Stop thinking in terms of raw materials. Crude oil is both an energy source and feedstock for a lot of finished products. There are a lot of other raw materials that can be mined or grown. Canada has a lot of energy (hydroelectric, uranium) and can use that at home for manufacturing. The USA would like to tell every other nation to shut up and ship the raw resources. Canada needs to think about some vertically integrated, value added manufacturing.

      An anecdote: When the USA (and Boeing) pulled the rug out from under Canada's supersonic interceptor, the Arrow, one of the goals of the project was to develop Canada's titanium mining, processing and manufacturing capabilities. Specifically, in the Canadian-built engines that they hoped to sell to other manufacturers. The result was that, when the USA needed titanium for projects like the SR-71, they had to create a cover story and buy the stuff from the Soviet Union. To date, Canada has never pursued this resource or manufacturing capability. I'm not sure if it was fear of the evil Americans shutting them down again. Or just a passive-aggressive 'Fuck you' over the behind the scenes politics.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    14. Re:Hydroelectric? by flyingfsck · · Score: 1

      Well, it is a good thing that the great lakes are drying up and that we shot all the buffaloes, due to all the environmental destruction caused by water and cow farts. Maybe we should kill all the beavers too so they don't build dams either.

      --
      Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
    15. Re:Hydroelectric? by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      Did you take a course in coming up with straw man arguments? Yeah, a beaver dam that covers a few acres, provides habitat for fish and water for wildlife is the same as a dam that floods hundreds of acres of valley bottom. You make me laugh.

    16. Re: Hydroelectric? by ljw1004 · · Score: 1

      I wonder how the cost of high voltage DC compares to the cost of an oil pipeline?

    17. Re:Hydroelectric? by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      It is not a labour issue. It is a consumption issue. Transporting electricity from remote locations to population centres is a significant expense.

    18. Re:Hydroelectric? by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      So.. if everyone are to drive EVs, it sounds like someone is going to have to pay for the means to transfer that energy to where it is needed. If it's government, I guess taxes will need to go way up. If it's EV owners, cost of ownership will likely become too high for most people to purchase. It makes me wonder what will happen for the cost of electricity in general, not just EVs.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    19. Re:Hydroelectric? by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      That is exactly the problem.

    20. Re:Hydroelectric? by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      According to https://www.hydro.mb.ca/corpor... , they exported $139 million to the US last year. They expect to export $16 billion in the next twenty years. They have plenty of capacity to go around. The new dam will only add to that capacity. 60-100 years is a long time to manufacture more efficiency into the system. As long as the entities involved are interested in doing so, hydroelectricity looks like it will remain a viable option for awhile.. that means someone needs to pay the cost of it though.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    21. Re:Hydroelectric? by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      I'd tend to think it's because our government is clueless, but if Americans think it's some sort of defiant stance I'll take it!

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    22. Re:Hydroelectric? by Curunir_wolf · · Score: 1

      We have more hydroelectricty than we can use... Does this not qualify as renewable energy?

      Sure it is. But the same groups that want to end the use of fossil fuels and nuclear also want to end the use of hydroelectric. Because - some fish or something.

      --
      "Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
      --- Jerry Garcia
    23. Re: Hydroelectric? by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      I'm no expert, but I'm practically just guessing that DC would be more expensive to keep going than a pipeline. It's expensive to put a pipeline in but then you can push everything very cheaply through a relatively small set of pumping stations for years and years. The biggest cost is likely related to environmental regulations.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    24. Re:Hydroelectric? by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      How would you get the electricity from Manitoba to BC? The grid capacity between those two points does not exist and the distance would cause significant losses.

    25. Re:Hydroelectric? by dskoll · · Score: 1

      I don't know that a lack of elecricity capacity is the biggest bottleneck in EV deployment. Practical EVs use motors with rare-earth permanent magnets and until we have practical and inexpensive replacements for the rare-earth magnets, that's going to be a problem.

    26. Re: Hydroelectric? by dskoll · · Score: 1

      I would say a pipeline would be more expensive to operate. You have to check it for integrity and make absolutely sure there are no leaks. An HVDC line could be inspected much more easily and while the economic consequences of a failure would be pretty bad, the environmental consequences would be negligible compared to a pipeline failure.

    27. Re:Hydroelectric? by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      It's got to be easier to get an electrical trunk through the mountains than it was to get a pipeline... or a train. When the money is there people figure those things out.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    28. Re: Hydroelectric? by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      They have robots for that now. Also, cathodics keeps the line from rusting or deteriorating and pressure detection is done from central locations.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    29. Re:Hydroelectric? by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      Has there ever been an electric motor designed anywhere that didn't use magnets?

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    30. Re:Hydroelectric? by dskoll · · Score: 1

      Not all motors use permanent magnets. And yes, I suppose you could say an AC induction motor doesn't use magnets; it has a stator coil and an iron-cage rotor that only magnetizes when power is applied. But rare-earth permanent magent motors let generate a lot of torque in a relatively small motor.

    31. Re:Hydroelectric? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Have you ever tried to put up a dam next to a population centre? Thanks to NIMBY, that will never be an option.

    32. Re:Hydroelectric? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But but but, teh nukulars!!

  8. Re:There is no such thing. by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

    There is no such thing as "cheap renewable electricity." Tax money will either be used to subsidize it, or it will expensive.

    Hey, dumbfuck. Yeah, I'm talking to you.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    --
    You are welcome on my lawn.
  9. Re:There is no such thing. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There is no such thing as "cheap renewable electricity."

    There would be if Republican-owned corporations didn't charge so much for it.

  10. No wonder we don't hear much about by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    the Keystone Pipeline on the US Presidential campaign trail.

    That dog don't hunt!

  11. Strange, and bollocks. by Fragnet · · Score: 2

    I hear global consumption of fossil fuel continues to increase. Can you stop reporting wishful thinking as actual reality. It's incredibly tiresome.

    1. Re:Strange, and bollocks. by BlackPignouf · · Score: 1

      +1
      As usual with energy, it's very informative to look at orders of magnitude.
      Facts just don't fit very well with the statement from TFS.
      http://www.eea.europa.eu/data-...
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      I reckon it would be nice to give less power and petrodollars to Russia, Qatar and Saudi Arabia, though.

    2. Re:Strange, and bollocks. by DogDude · · Score: 1

      That's a right wing organization funded by the energy companies. Check your sources.

      --
      I don't respond to AC's.
    3. Re:Strange, and bollocks. by Fragnet · · Score: 2

      Oh no! A "right wing organization"! That means it's probably supporting genocide! It wouldn't surprise me if its employees keep Human body parts in their freezers! Fascists!!!

      Or perhaps it's just reporting the BP Statistical Review of World Energy Use.

    4. Re:Strange, and bollocks. by DogDude · · Score: 1

      It's about the money. Exxon does more than a quarter of a TRILLION dollars a year in sales. You think that maybe there'd be a reason they'd fund an organization that published "studies" about how great fossil fuel is? Are you really that thick?

      --
      I don't respond to AC's.
    5. Re:Strange, and bollocks. by Fragnet · · Score: 1

      The study isn't about "how great" fossil fuels are, it's about consumption. There are rules about use of statistics and reporting for publicly listed companies. I suppose you think some Marxist environmentalist group is going to produce a completely unbiased report, do you? Calling me thick. What a cheek.

    6. Re:Strange, and bollocks. by almechist · · Score: 1

      I hear global consumption of fossil fuel continues to increase. Can you stop reporting wishful thinking as actual reality. It's incredibly tiresome.

      Yes, it's absolutely surging. Oh, wait...

      Guess it depends on where you look. Although to be fair you may be right about the bollocks, the scenario in the article/study is probably unrealistic. The truth, as usual, probably lies somewhere in between.

    7. Re:Strange, and bollocks. by Fragnet · · Score: 1

      As usual the bigger picture is revealed if you change the time span.

    8. Re:Strange, and bollocks. by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      What would be the advantage for an oil company to push findings that oil is going out of style?

    9. Re:Strange, and bollocks. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... Which, believe it or not happens to be 100% correct. Globally, hydrocarbons are still growing in use.

    10. Re:Strange, and bollocks. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are dumb and should feel dumb for being dumb.

  12. Wishful thinkin by xfizik · · Score: 1

    Canada's status as an "energy superpower"

    is just wishful thinking from a few years back when Harper was PM. What kind of "energy superpower" can't even export our "energy" resources to global markets? Something that doesn't exist can not possibly be threatened.

    1. Re:Wishful thinkin by mark-t · · Score: 1

      Canada has been no less than in the top ten, worldwide, for oil exports for quite some time. Yes, it is not an exaggeration to say that Canada has been an energy superpower... but as the demand for oil drops, that status will invariably change.

    2. Re:Wishful thinkin by xfizik · · Score: 1

      Simply being in top 10 doesn't make you a superpower.

    3. Re:Wishful thinkin by Dixie_Flatline · · Score: 1

      Superpowers aren't reliant on external forces to maintain their superpower status--that's why they're superpowers.

      The USSR and the USA were military superpowers--they were able to exert influence on an unbelievable scale. They had leverage in the form of nuclear weapons.

      At no time did Canada have leverage over ANYTHING, as we can see by how badly our economy was hit when global oil prices dropped. We could not threaten to pull out of production--nobody would've cared. Someone else would've taken up the slack. We couldn't threaten to INCREASE production--that would just be shooting ourselves in the foot.

      Superpowers aren't beholden to anyone. It was a stupid thing that was said by a stupid man in an attempt to gain leverage that never existed in an industry that he never controlled.

    4. Re:Wishful thinkin by mark-t · · Score: 1

      Not by itself, no... but I would think accounting for more than 40% of the US's oil imports probably would.

    5. Re:Wishful thinkin by mark-t · · Score: 1

      It may have escaped your attention that Canada supplies more than 40% of all US oil imports. You don't think that's leverage? At least historically speaking... the only thing that would keep it from being so is reducing dependency on oil in the first place.

    6. Re:Wishful thinkin by Dixie_Flatline · · Score: 1

      No, I don't. Mainly because fracking has wildly changed the equation, and is probably the cause of the dip in energy prices.

      Because fracking operations were financed on debt, they keep pumping out oil despite the drop in price. As long as they can sell at even a meagre profit, they can finance their debt. Never mind that if they backed off a bit, prices might rebound some when stockpiles dropped--they can't. They don't have that kind of luxury, there are bills to pay.

      But regardless, there has always been oil in the world, with or without Canada. The USA is a net oil EXPORTER now. We've never had any control over anything. It's not that we weren't successful, we've just never been a superpower. That word carries with it a lot more power than we've ever had.

    7. Re:Wishful thinkin by mark-t · · Score: 1
      First, I am talking about being an *energy* superpower. Not just "superpower". They are two very different things. Canada is nowhere near being a superpower, and never has been.

      Further, while I can't really dispute that the label of "energy superpower" may perhaps be a bit subjective, but it's at least a fair point to make that it has been referred to as such in the news, and by media, numerous times in the past 10 to 15 years. Heck, even the wikipedia page on "energy superpower" mentions Canada in the first paragraph. I know from memory I've seen the term in news articles as well. Remember also, I am talking historically here, not implying anything about current trends or making any kind of projections about what will happen. Indeed, as world demand for oil falls, Canada's status as such will invariably disappear.

  13. Re:There is no such thing. by jklovanc · · Score: 1

    $8.3 Billion is not cheap. While it will last for 100 years it will become silted up and is not renewable.

  14. Re:There is no such thing. by presidenteloco · · Score: 2

    Aside from you being wrong that cheap renewable energy is not feasible now,
    you are also wrong that the currently still more expensive forms of renewable energy need tax subsidies.

    What they do need is for the carbon-emissions of fossil-fuel-based electricity to be taxed with a sin-tax similar to cigarette taxes. That would level the energy economics playing field in a hurry.

    --

    Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?
  15. As a Canadian by macxcool · · Score: 1

    I have to say. We've never been called a Superpower before... of anything.

    1. Re:As a Canadian by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Agreed, Canada has never been called an energy Superpower. I'd like to add that what the article is talking about is specific, really, to just the province of Alberta.

      Much of our power comes from hydro (which seems pretty renewable) so I was confused about why fossile fuels would be an issue for Canada. Really, just Alberta (and maybe Saskatchewan) would be affected by reducing demand for oil. The rest of the country is fine running on hydro and wind.

    2. Re:As a Canadian by xfizik · · Score: 1

      It's not just oil. It's natural gas and coal too, which our precious green oil bashing BC exports in large amounts. And no, it's not just AB and SK being affected, it's everyone in Canada benefiting from federal taxes paid by resource extracting companies and their employees.

    3. Re:As a Canadian by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We've never been called a Superpower before... of anything.

      Quirky show business talent.

    4. Re:As a Canadian by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey, hey, hey!

      We're a hockey superpower. Everyone knows that!

  16. Disruptive technologies and the S curve. by Layzej · · Score: 5, Insightful

    We're going to wean ourselves off fossil fuels faster than anyone thinks? I'm not sure how that's going to happen.

    According to Bloomberg Business, "Electric Cars Could Wreak Havoc on Oil Markets Within a Decade"

    Conventional energy will be obsolete by 2030 according to Swedbank: there are four key categories of technologies all of which are improving by double and triple digit basis every year. Each one of them is disruptive in it's own way.

    1. Re:Disruptive technologies and the S curve. by Hylandr · · Score: 1, Insightful

      a Vancouver-based cleantech fund

      Another 'company' with everything to benefit from x going away by declaring 'X is dead' 'fossil fuels are on the way out' Sick of this "x is dead' shit.

      PC's are dead, Facebook is dead, or PC's will destroy your children, Facebook is bad for you, smart phones are destroying our youth.

      At least before the WWW became popular you could identify these whack-jobs because they wore the 'End is now' signs.

      --
      ~ People that think they are better than anyone else for any reason are the cause of all the strife in the world.
    2. Re:Disruptive technologies and the S curve. by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Like I said, it's inevitable that the oil market shrinks, but that video didn't address the areas where electricity isn't practical. Neither did the paper. The speaker asserts that "all new vehicles will be electric by 2025. What about vehicles that regularly need to travel more than 300 miles? There are still a lot of those, and he never addresses those points. I agree with a lot of his analyses, but not his conclusions, and I think his timelines are a bit optimistic as well. The notion of your house and car being able to transfer energy on demand (both ways) was sort of an interesting idea, though, and one I hadn't heard before. But again, I think his timeline of 2030 is a decade too early at a minimum. Infrastructure changes *very* slowly, so I think you'll see a slow transition over decades rather than a quick switch, as he seems to be promising.

      About three-quarters of what gets refined from every barrel goes to transportation needs. Some of that is cars, but planes, trains, and trucks fall into those categories, and electricity won't work for all of those. Gasoline apparently accounts for 43% of the market, so let's assume those can ALL be replaced by EVs (which I think is optimistic as well) for argument's sake.

      That's a good start, but what replaces the other half of the current oil market? We're still going to need some sort of hydrocarbon-based fuel to fuel planes, power ships, and drive long haul vehicles until some miracle energy source replaces it, or until we're generating so much excess electricity that we can afford to use that excess to create synthetic or alternative fuels with it. And that doesn't even address the other uses for oil which are non-transportation. In the near future, it seems more likely that we're going to struggle building capacity for the massively increased demand for electricity as we transition from gas-powered cars to EVs.

      At the moment, I think it's wildly optimistic for anyone to assume the oil industry isn't going to still have a very long lifespan ahead of it, even if in a reduced capacity.

      --
      Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
    3. Re:Disruptive technologies and the S curve. by Layzej · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Like I said, it's inevitable that the oil market shrinks, but that video didn't address the areas where electricity isn't practical.

      That doesn't matter much to Canada. Canadian oil is expensive to extract. It is not economical even at the current price. Canada needs demand to grow substantially in order for its oil to become economical once again. If demand drops at all then it is game over for oil extraction in Canada. Analysts are expecting demand to drop substantially and in relatively short order.

    4. Re:Disruptive technologies and the S curve. by Layzej · · Score: 2

      The group that developed this study was created and mandated by Canada's privy council. Canada does not exactly benefit from the findings of this study. And what about Bloomberg Business and Swedbank? Are they also "Whack-Jobs"?

    5. Re:Disruptive technologies and the S curve. by merky1 · · Score: 1

      I think that the difference here is that given the current trends, it is foreseeable that mining,transporting,burning,disposing of fossil fuels will out cost renewable sources. If you think back to the 70's, nobody was doing wind efficiently. Now, there are wind farms all over the place. If energy storage / refill becomes easier in cars, you better believe that in 10 years gas stations will be uncommon, if not rare. Sort of like the transition from leaded to unleaded. It may take a decade or two, but I believe that my daughter will never drive a gasoline operated vehicle outside of "fun."

      --
      --WooooHoooo--
    6. Re:Disruptive technologies and the S curve. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In other words, fossil fuels will rise or fall due to market pricing. The bad smelling elephant in the room is the 'hidden' subsidy for fossil fuels - basically the support of the Saudi monarchy and their idiot friends in the Middle East. Take that away and any fossil fuel derived substance is going to be pretty damned expensive.

      Good in the long term. Disasteous if it happens rapidly. As you point out, if you go slow and steady the market will change.

      If you go fast, the market will change as well but it won't be very comfortable for most people.

    7. Re:Disruptive technologies and the S curve. by Hylandr · · Score: 1

      Also guilty of the X-is-dead argument.

      And Bloomberg... Seriously?

      --
      ~ People that think they are better than anyone else for any reason are the cause of all the strife in the world.
    8. Re:Disruptive technologies and the S curve. by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

      What about vehicles that regularly need to travel more than 300 miles?

      Battery technology is not standing still. Lithium-air batteries can theoretically achieve 12 kwh/kg compared to 13 kwh/kg for gasoline, with the higher efficiency of electric motors more than making up the difference. It is inevitable that fossil fuel motors will go the way of steam engines.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    9. Re:Disruptive technologies and the S curve. by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 2

      No one is arguing that fossil fuel motor cars won't eventually disappear. The question is really just about the time required to do so. Some people are, in my opinion, ridiculously overly-optimistic that *all* new cars will be EVs within ten years (let alone *most*). A much saner prediction puts EVs at 35% of global sales by 2040, although they'll undoubtedly be better represented in countries like the US.

      Don't listen to the hucksters promising a revolution in a few short years. It's not going to happen quickly. It's going to be decades of slow transition as we develop the technology and infrastructure to replace the oil-based systems we've built over the last century.

      --
      Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
    10. Re:Disruptive technologies and the S curve. by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

      Some people are, in my opinion, ridiculously overly-optimistic that *all* new cars will be EVs within ten years (let alone *most*). A much saner prediction puts EVs at 35% of global sales by 2040

      You're quoting Bloomberg, which has a vested interest in maintaining the status quo. I expect the crossover point will be much closer to the ten year mark than Bloomberg's multi-decade imagining. Electric cars are inherently less expensive to produce, the battery being the most expensive component, and rapidly declining. Electric cars are inherently faster, again, the battery being the biggest limiting factor. Cleaner, cheaper to operate and maintain. In ten years, with a massive increase in the battery energy density and dramatically decreased cost, why would anybody want to buy a gas powered car? Clearout sales maybe? Nostalgia? Come to think of it, the crossover could arrive considerably faster than ten years. The rise of the smartphone would be as good a model as any.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    11. Re:Disruptive technologies and the S curve. by Teckla · · Score: 1

      What about vehicles that regularly need to travel more than 300 miles?

      Small internal combustion engine that runs at a fixed, efficient RPM, and gas tank that keeps the batteries topped off.

      Or just rent a car for those occasional long distance needs.

      Most miles are commute miles of a fixed (and relatively short) distance. Electric vehicles are ideal for that. Better get used to them becoming more and more popular. Especially as people start discovering how cheap they are to operate (way less money spent on "fuel" and way less money spent on maintenance).

      Not to mention the luxury and performance market. For example, Tesla's spank the crap out of Formula 1 cars. (Check YouTube for all sorts of fun videos where Tesla's spank the crap out of every single internal combustion engine car they race against.)

      Internal combustion engines simply can't compete in the performance market. As more car enthusiasts move to truly high performance vehicles like Tesla, we'll see prices continue to drop on all electric vehicles in general.

    12. Re:Disruptive technologies and the S curve. by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 3, Informative

      Keep in mind Bloomberg is predicting *worldwide* markets, not just first-world markets. You're probably right that this prediction is somewhat pessimistic, but I still think you're being rather overly optimistic, especially if you think it's going to happen in *less* than ten years. Hopefully we'll both be around in another decade, so we'll see who is right.

      I think one mistake people make is that they don't account for the lag time with long-term purchases. Even if, starting tomorrow, a new prototype EV was created that was better and cheaper than gas vehicles in every way imaginable, it would probably still take at least a few years to get production ramped up. It will take another number of years for enough people to get rid of their old cars and buy new ones, and even longer for those cars to trickle down in the used market for those that can't afford a new car. Given all that, I just don't see how in ten years time a significant number of cars will be EVs. It's going to take time to saturate the market.

      Smartphones are a hell of a lot cheaper and don't last nearly as long as cars, so adoption is a lot easier when it only costs a few hundred bucks. Cars, on the other hand, run $15K at the cheapest, with most in the $25k to 50K range, and most new cars will easily last a decade with moderate use.

      --
      Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
    13. Re:Disruptive technologies and the S curve. by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

      India is already on the verge of making electric vehicles mandatory. I doubt the replacements will cost as much as $15k. Keep in mind that we're talking about new sales here, not installed base. (Bloomberg was also talking about that.) I'll stick with my guess, just remember you heard it here.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    14. Re:Disruptive technologies and the S curve. by amiga3D · · Score: 1

      Electric cars are cheaper to produce? Why do they cost more then? I'm wondering why I don't see any electric F250s either? I see Chrysler Fiat has a new minivan coming that will go 30 miles on an electric charge. NOT 300 but 30. It's a hybrid for obvious reasons so it'll have a high carbon footprint. I too think electric vehicles will one day rule but not in a decade. No way, probably not even two decades. Battery improvements are small and incremental and costs are still way high. When I can buy a car for 30 grand that will travel 300 miles on a charge and recharge in 20 minutes I'll damn sure get it. One caveat, it has to be big enough for my 6 foot frame.

    15. Re:Disruptive technologies and the S curve. by RespekMyAthorati · · Score: 1

      That's a good start, but what replaces the other half of the current oil market?

      To begin with, liquified natural gas.
      It's a hydrocarbon, but much cleaner and more efficient than oil.

    16. Re:Disruptive technologies and the S curve. by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 1

      Well, I'm hoping you're right and I'm wrong, because that would definitely be a good thing for everyone's air quality. See you in a decade!

      --
      Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
    17. Re:Disruptive technologies and the S curve. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not only that. This is Canada for Christ's sake. It gets mighty cold here. How are we going to heat our homes without natural gas? If we are going to use electricity for that, we probably would need more nuclear power plants and I imagine the cost of heating our homes would go up.

    18. Re:Disruptive technologies and the S curve. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Let's assume a world where consumption of gasoline is sharply decreasing due to the use of electric vehicles. It is safe to assume the adoption of the new electric technology would be mostly taking place in the developed world given the high cost (at least in the beginning). In this world, oil/gasoline would be abundant and prices would likely fall. As prices fall, the older fossil fuel technologies become even more appealing to the poor masses of the world as it would become cheaper for them to own a car.

      In other words, as the rich world shifts to electric, fossil fuels become a cheaper option for the poorer countries (mind you, there is many more of them then rich ones). As a result, I just do not see how a full switch away from fossil fuels could possibly happen so quickly given that there is still plenty of cheap oil that can be extracted (particularly in the ME).

    19. Re:Disruptive technologies and the S curve. by pastafazou · · Score: 1

      So when Canada's privy council consults with left wing leaders who tell them that the plan is to do away with fossil fuels and replace them with renewables, they naturally come to the conclusion that fossil fuels are going to disappear. What they DIDN'T do, however, was study the feasibility of replacing all of Canada's fossil fuel usage with renewables. It just won't work. Canada needs far more energy in the winter time than in the summer time, and the winter is when renewables are at their weakest. The days are short, the sun is weak, the rivers freeze, and the windmills ice up regularly. The only way Canada can replace all their fossil fuels is to go heavy with nuclear. But nuclear isn't renewable, and the environmentalists are pretty negative on nuclear energy so that likely isn't going to happen any time soon.

    20. Re:Disruptive technologies and the S curve. by dave420 · · Score: 1

      You are assuming there will be no advances in battery technology in the next 9 years.

    21. Re:Disruptive technologies and the S curve. by Layzej · · Score: 1

      They are looking at the future of the Canadian oil sands. This is about the federal coffers, not the trees and rivers. Because of emerging technologies - technologies disruptive on the order of the internet - it is very unlikely that the oil sands will find a path back to profitability.

      This is not "how do we move Canada away from oil", but "Oh shit. The world is moving away from oil! How can Canada cope with this new reality?"

    22. Re:Disruptive technologies and the S curve. by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

      Electric cars are cheaper to produce? Why do they cost more then?

      See "inherently" above, because of vastly fewer moving parts. Current pricing is mostly about the battery pack, cost of which is falling rapidly. The other big component is the current boutique nature of the market, a chicken/egg thing, but we are already past the tipping point of that.

      I'm wondering why I don't see any electric F250s either?

      Several factors: price, power density, conservative demographic, lack of charging stations in the woods for those vehicles that actually get out there. This segment will lag but will eventually yield when electric trucks start outperforming gas ones at similar price points. Obviously, truck owners tend not to care much about the clean air argument, but they do care about watching taillights. Electric dragsters are already a thing.

      I see Chrysler Fiat has a new minivan coming that will go 30 miles on an electric charge. NOT 300 but 30. It's a hybrid for obvious reasons so it'll have a high carbon footprint. I too think electric vehicles will one day rule but not in a decade.

      I think your next car will be at least a hybrid, am I right? I'm pretty sure I will never buy another gas-only vehicle new.

      No way, probably not even two decades. Battery improvements are small and incremental and costs are still way high.

      Battery cost improvements are dramatic. Energy density improvements are indeed incremental, but it is a safe bet that lithium-air technology will reach commercial production well within ten years. The commercial incentives for it are huge.

      When I can buy a car for 30 grand that will travel 300 miles on a charge and recharge in 20 minutes I'll damn sure get it. One caveat, it has to be big enough for my 6 foot frame.

      You will see that within five years, not ten. Currently, Tesla talks about 270km charge in 30 minutes.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    23. Re:Disruptive technologies and the S curve. by fatwilbur · · Score: 1

      Just how realistic does that sound? Remember, you can find a journalist or analyst who takes ANY position out there.

      Electric-only (and to some degree hybrid) vehicles currently sell at pitiful rates compared to ICE vehicles. There are arguably some pretty good commuter-type electric vehicles out there now. I live in Canada and see plug in parking spots in all downtowns and new shopping centers, even in "hippy" places like Victoria and Vancouver - and none of them are ever in use.

      Better yet, we can see the market reacting now to the low oil prices that set in almost a year ago.. people flock back to big trucks and SUVs. Look by how wide of a margin trucks outsell cars in North America. It's shocking. People want bigger, more powerful, and long range - until it becomes cost prohibitive people will not willingly accept less and have shown this market behaviour AGAIN and AGAIN (same thing happened in 2008/09). And until something radical changes, batteries have a long way to go to match the convenience and the cost of running an ICE isn't anywhere near prohibitive.

      Good luck. I'll keep investing in big gas guzzlers. Let's see who does better by 2030.

    24. Re:Disruptive technologies and the S curve. by fatwilbur · · Score: 1

      It is not economical even at the current price.

      You are living in the past. Technology makes it cheaper and during downturns the companies have shown capable of cutting costs below production cost. That $60/barrel (or whatever number you heard) accounts for current costs during boom times where spending is high. That cost can quickly be shaved down by prudent management as has been done.

      Second, keep in mind these are Canadian companies which report earnings in Canadian dollars. At the same time that oil went down, the dollar retreated to about 75c (well today it's 76). When oil was high the Canadian dollar was much higher (at times worth most than USD). So these companies are making an extra 30% or so on their barrels (which the oil price you see is in USD).

      Simply put, that statement isn't, has never, and never will be true, unless oil drops to the $15 or so per barrel rate. Please stop repeating it.

    25. Re:Disruptive technologies and the S curve. by Layzej · · Score: 1

      Breakeven costs for existing projects such as Kearl Phase 1 stand at US$42 per barrel, with Husky’s Lloydminster (US$28), Cenvous’ Christina Lake ($26) and Suncor operations (US$30.3), - http://business.financialpost....

      Kearl Phase 1 has been running at a loss since November. WTI was as low as $26 earlier this year.

    26. Re: Disruptive technologies and the S curve. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The same analysts that said oil would never drop below $100 per barrel again?

  17. The Mythical Value of Think-tanks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Really, this conclusion could be reached by any well-read adult. We don't need consultants, think-tank's or Schools of Public Policy to tell us the glaringly obvious.

    What we need to know is over what timeline. All meaningful economic planning, public policy and governmental strategy is dependent upon the timing of such shifts. Without timing, reports like this are near useless.

    It does not matter that the issues of timing are difficult to forecast. Indeed, if you want to prove your bona fides as a useful Public Policy analyst, you must tackle the tough questions. The more answers you can supply to tough questions, the more value you have. If you cannot address difficult issues then you have no value as an analyst. Deal with it.

    Otherwise your apparently profound public policy report can be relegated to the scrap heap containing all the other unactionable reports. "Shoes could be obsolete, given conditions!" "Housing may change in the future!" "Cities may become more densely populated, unless they don't!" That's the kind of superficial analysis this particular public policy report competes with.

    Give us some timing estimates (a range is perfectly fine) or get outta here. Now get off of my lawn!

  18. The Fort McMurray fire was a sign by presidenteloco · · Score: 0

    In case you missed it, Fort McMurray, the small city where those working in the oil-sands industry in Canada live, was just ravaged by a Boreal forest wildfire. The fire is about the size of the smallest Canadian province. The city is evacuated and oil production is still mostly halted, after a month or so now.

    Since the frequency and intensity of wildfires at these latitudes is positively correlated with climate change due to increased greenhouse gases, the residents of this city should take it as a sign to retrain for a job in the green energy economy. I'm not saying I wish a fire on them, but they should seriously take it as an opportunity to rethink their trajectory in life.

    --

    Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?
    1. Re:The Fort McMurray fire was a sign by AndroSyn · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The Fort McMurray fire was a result of 100+ years of fire suppression with a massive fuel load. It was a sign alright, poor forestry management was the primary culprit here. Well that and people living WAY to close to the urban-wildland interface.

      The good news is, once you have a huge fire like that, you're likely not to have one again for another 50-100 years since you know, all of the fuel is burnt.

      Global warming is a real issue, obviously, but in this case, wrong environmental issue to be going after.

    2. Re:The Fort McMurray fire was a sign by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      In fact the area around Fory McMurray needs to burn every so often to survive.

      Natural Resources Canada says that in the boreal forest fire “is as crucial to forest renewal as the sun and rain.”

    3. Re:The Fort McMurray fire was a sign by sackvillian · · Score: 1

      Global warming is a real issue, obviously, but in this case, wrong environmental issue to be going after.

      There's at least some merit in laying blame on both:

      The current fires in Alberta are unlikely to have been exacerbated by suppression, said Spies. Boreal forests differ from the temperate forests further south in that they have a longer fire cycle, lots of fuel and tend to burn intensely. But their occurrence in the normally wet month of May is highly unusual and “consistent with what we expect from human-caused climate change”, according to a local scientist.

      --
      Hey mate, spare a sig?
  19. Hockey-based renewable energy by Event+Horizon · · Score: 5, Funny

    For Canada, there's a simple solution: Hockey-based renewable energy. It's simple.

    1) Embed neodymium magnets in hockey pucks.
    2) Run coils through hockey ice.
    3) Play hockey as usual.
    4) Profit.

    Moving puck induces current in coils, sufficient to cover Canada's energy needs and allow Canada to continue as a new energy exporter until, and maybe after, cold fusion.

    --
    You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows. - Bob Dylan "Subteranean Homesick Blue
    1. Re:Hockey-based renewable energy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm only interested if you promise there will be a fist fight.

    2. Re:Hockey-based renewable energy by mark-t · · Score: 1

      Two problems with that:

      One, it would also require that all hockey players get different skates, since the blades are usually made of steel, and are ferromagnetic.

      Two, the induced current in coils in the ice would also create heat, and would be liable to melt the ice, preventing them from playing on that surface.

    3. Re:Hockey-based renewable energy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Impromptu swimming competition?

    4. Re:Hockey-based renewable energy by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      None of those disadvantages would outweigh the cheating advantages for the home team.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    5. Re:Hockey-based renewable energy by mark-t · · Score: 1

      Only if you had *REALLY* short players. Hockey rink ice is only about an inch thick.

    6. Re:Hockey-based renewable energy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm only interested if you promise there will be a fist fight.

      1) Embed neodymium magnets in gloves.
      2) Run coils through face masks.
      3) Radiate energy from head with frickkin' lasers
      4) Play hockey as usual.
      5) Profit.

    7. Re:Hockey-based renewable energy by vandamme · · Score: 1

      Yeah, cold fusion may be the answer. Because Canada's got plenty.

      But here in NY we tried selling snow, but nobody wanted to pay the shipping.

  20. Finally wakey wakey time for Alberta? by dstyle5 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I've lived in Alberta for close to 20 years now and the PC government's failure to attempt (to my knowledge) to diversify the economy has reared its head again in the latest bust cycle in the oil and gas industry. Perhaps something like this report, coupled with the low commodity prices will finally wake up the provincial government that its time to actively support other industries here. BC gives tax credits to TV and film production companies and they had a banner year in 2015. I believe Quebec gives tax breaks to game companies and Ubisoft, for example, has a huge number of employees in Montreal.

    I work at a software dev company who has no oil and gas ties or customers, and surprise surprise, we are doing well during the downturn here. There is no guarantee of course but if the governments had spent some time, effort and petro dollars into trying to build and attract new industries here it probably wouldn't be quite as bad now as it is.

    1. Re:Finally wakey wakey time for Alberta? by Nemyst · · Score: 3, Interesting

      BC gives tax credits to TV and film production companies and they had a banner year in 2015. I believe Quebec gives tax breaks to game companies and Ubisoft, for example, has a huge number of employees in Montreal.

      I've been repeating this ad nauseam: this is where we should be going. It's less expensive in infrastructure (tar sands require roads, electricity, entire towns to be built in far off regions) and it's much more forward-looking. We have excellent universities throughout the country, cheap (cheaper in some places, but still cheap compared to the US) tuition and a solid foundation for an innovation/research-focused economy.

      The tax breaks to Ubisoft were a brilliant shot, since they've not only built up a studio of 2700 well-paid employees, they've also attracted/fostered dozens of other studios. Ubisoft branched out in Quebec City, Toronto and Halifax. Other companies like EA, Square Enix, Warner Brothers and more have opened their own studios to take advantage of the tax breaks and the skilled local workforce. At this point, the games industry in Montreal is growing on its own due to a feedback loop of opportunities attracting talent attracting more studios and creating more opportunities.

    2. Re:Finally wakey wakey time for Alberta? by ceoyoyo · · Score: 2

      The Alberta government has used oil revenue to fund diversification, mostly into high tech, for at least fifty years. An Alberta informatics research scholarship funded part of my PhD (in medical imaging). The tories made a hash of that over the last five years or so, but it was a fairly strong program before that.

      Alberta probably should give more PR to industries other than oil. They do exist.

    3. Re:Finally wakey wakey time for Alberta? by fatwilbur · · Score: 1

      I don't know what you two are advocating for here - how is it the failure of the government to diversify the economy? Private companies make investments, and they are going to go where the greatest return is. Doesn't it make sense to milk that cow for what it's worth while you can, if economics is the argument road you're going to take? Look at how much massively higher the GDP per capita in Alberta is than the other provinces (by 100% in some cases). Are you saying people should have invested into something that made them poorer through that? Even if the industry totally fell apart, they'd still be in a better position, with money and no almost zero debt, to begin investing in something new.

      And if you didn't know, Alberta is already home to a pretty big movie industry. In fact, most of the movie which won the most oscars this year was filmed in Alberta.

  21. Oil is too valuable to burn by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Oil is just too useful as a chemical feedstock to make so many different things, it's a shame to just burn the stuff.

    So yes, Canada's energy superpower status in danger(whatever the hell that is supposed to mean anyways), but the chemicals industry will take up the slack. Also the chemical industry will add value by turning the oil into something useful other than fuel.

    Besides, the sooner a nation can get off of a natural resource based economy the less likely they are to suffer from Dutch disease.

  22. Middle East next? by Tablizer · · Score: 1

    I'm looking forward to the day we can tell the Middle East suppliers to shove it.

  23. Employment will shift to manufacturing by RobinH · · Score: 1

    When the price of oil dipped down in the last year, that dropped the Canadian dollar, all of which had two effects: it hit the Alberta economy really hard (because of oil companies cutting production) and it was a boon to the Ontario economy (where manufacturing is strong). Suddenly buying manufactured goods from Canada was a lot less expensive, and everyone was hiring in Ontario. In a future where fossil fuels are in less demand, you'll just see exactly the same trend - a lower Canadian dollar meaning more demand for Canadian manufacturing exports. So Canada will be fine, but Alberta's going to become a "have-not" province again. Considering how they lord it over the rest of us when oil prices are high, I don't expect much of the rest of Canada to give a damn.

    --
    "I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain
    1. Re:Employment will shift to manufacturing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Alberta could have taken 1B CND a year and pumped it in to technology startups to diversify, but alas they did not!

      There probably will be one more oil peak before it really goes bust.

    2. Re:Employment will shift to manufacturing by kamapuaa · · Score: 1

      Canadian manufacturing is barely a blip on the radar compared to the natural resource extraction. That ship has sailed, manufacturing is never going to seriously help the Canadian economy.

      --
      Slashdot: providing anti-social weirdos a soapbox, since 1997.
    3. Re:Employment will shift to manufacturing by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      Alberta has known for decades that its economy needs to diversify. This is hardly the first time oil prices have dropped, though this one will likely have much longer-last effects, and if there is a recovery to the highs of a few years ago, it's likely to be oil's last great rally. Albertans are completely resistant to change, refusing even to contemplate bringing in a sales tax so the government can at least find alternative revenue streams to oil and gas royalties. Until Alberta, and several other petro-jurisdictions around the world accept that oil is likely going to fade in importance throughout the rest of this century, these jurisdictions face serious economic decline.

      As to Alberta lording it over everyone, there's no denying that. Even as their own "conservative" government was throwing money everywhere, they were demanding the rest of the country show incredible fiscal restraint. There's still some cognitive dissonance, even with the NDP in charge of the province, and now that Ontario plans to ween the province off of fossil fuels, the Alberta government is acting like this is some sort of revenge. Sooner or later, they will get it, but likely too late to fund the economic changes themselves, and the rest of the country will have to partially fund the economic transformation.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    4. Re:Employment will shift to manufacturing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > refusing even to contemplate bringing in a sales tax so the government can at least find alternative revenue streams

      That's because Albertans aren't stupid; they know a sales tax would all be wasted on bureaucrats doing politically-motivated bullshit. Snorting coke off a hooker's tits is a better "investment" than anything the government could think up.

      In the 1930s, America got the Hoover Dam, the TVA, and many publicly funded bridges and highways at the cost of prolonging the Great Depression an extra seven years. The Democrats tried to repeat this trick in 2009 and spent $800 billion building nothing. Unions and environmentalists tied their hands, and feminists objected that big construction projects would provide too many jobs for "burly men".

    5. Re:Employment will shift to manufacturing by jenningsthecat · · Score: 1

      So Canada will be fine, but Alberta's going to become a "have-not" province again. Considering how they lord it over the rest of us when oil prices are high, I don't expect much of the rest of Canada to give a damn.

      I've lived in Ontario all my life, and I'm old enough to remember when we were top dog and lorded it over the have-not provinces. I've always considered Alberta's attitude simply as payback for the high-handed way we behaved back in the day.

      --
      'The Economy' is a giant Ponzi scheme whose most pitiable suckers are the youngest among us and the yet-unborn.
    6. Re:Employment will shift to manufacturing by jenningsthecat · · Score: 1

      That ship has sailed, manufacturing is never going to seriously help the Canadian economy.

      Why? Citation, please.

      --
      'The Economy' is a giant Ponzi scheme whose most pitiable suckers are the youngest among us and the yet-unborn.
    7. Re:Employment will shift to manufacturing by dskoll · · Score: 1

      Manufacturing provides about 11% of Canadian GDP; mining and oil or gas extraction provides about 8% of the Canadian GDP. The only sector of Canada's economy that's bigger than manufacturing is real estate and rental and leasing at about 12.3%.

      It's so easy to find this information that I wonder why people don't bother checking before posting.

  24. Re:Canada? Energy superpower status by Layzej · · Score: 1

    Only Venesuala and Saudi Arabia have greater oil reserves: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    But Canada's oil is expensive to recover. If demand for oil drops then so will price and Canada will be sitting on stranded assets. Even at the current price Canada's oil is not economical. Breakeven costs for existing projects such as Kearl Phase 1 stand at US$42 per barrel, with Husky’s Lloydminster (US$28), Cenvous’ Christina Lake ($26) and Suncor operations (US$30.3), WTI has declined to $30 per barrel.

    Canada needs demand to grow substantially if it is going to survive - or for supply to dry up elsewhere.

  25. Re:Canada? Energy superpower status by iONiUM · · Score: 1

    That's mostly true, except I'm pretty certain Saudi Arabia is lying about their proven oil reserves. There's a lot of articles on this. Venezuela I don't think is lying, but I also don't think the government can continue to extract and sell oil as the country is currently collapsing into chaos.

  26. Re:There is no such thing. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Claiming hydroelectric is not renewable, because it requires regular maintenance is stupid - do you think solar panels last forever? Did you know that wind turbines need to be replaced entirely after 20-25 years?
    For that matter, don't you know the Sun will die in just a few billion years and become useless?

  27. Go Nuclear by BeerMilkshake · · Score: 0

    1. Build Gen IV nuclear reactor(s) [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_IV_reactor]
    2. Get paid to take the rest of the world's Gen III waste, which is burned in the Gen IV to create power
    3. Use $$$ sales of power from step 2 to offset capital costs from step (1)
    4. Remove the old inefficient hydro dams that are choking the salmon out of existence and genociding the first nations

    We must at least consider, study the possibility. Bring new money into the economy. Develop a new generation of physicists and nuclear engineers. Dont bitch about the cost too much: Canada spent around $1B/month on Afghanistan for over 10 years. Make guns or butter. Build empire or civilization. Choose wisely.

    Canada's natural nuclear advantage comes from geographical/political stability, wealth of isolated places, highly educated people, natural supply of high quality Uranium in the north and so on ...

    Meanwhile we save the food supply, unless of course we want our descendants to live on insects and algae.

    Fossils are evil but plastic is so damn useful, if we could just get people to recycle responsibly. Solar cells are made with nasty stuff like arsenic and take more power to burn sand than they will ever produce in their warranty period. Look at Taiwan/China air pollution. Want to live in that?

    Wind turbines take a whack of metal/etc that had to get smelted. Probably takes more energy to create a turbine than it ever produces, and they kill alot of bird life. Then theres the creepy moving shadows and noise all the time. Wouldnt want to live near one.

    Geothermal's great if you live in Iceland I guess.

    Not saying Nuclear's perfect but jeez Gen IV looks awesome compared to the options. How are we going to scale up to support the 12B people we expect to be on the planet by the end of the century???

    1. Re:Go Nuclear by jenningsthecat · · Score: 1

      Outstanding suggestions. Too bad I just finished spending my mod points.

      --
      'The Economy' is a giant Ponzi scheme whose most pitiable suckers are the youngest among us and the yet-unborn.
  28. Re:There is no such thing. by MightyMartian · · Score: 2

    Exactly. If fossil fuels were actually priced based on environmental and climactic impacts, renewables would look a lot better, but because almost every government on the planet is allowing fossil fuel companies to evade pricing in those impacts, they give those companies and their shareholders a vast subsidy.

    --
    The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
  29. Saudi Arabia had that figured a while ago by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why do you think Saudi Arabia has been taking their US petro $$ and investing it into the financial markets?
    Smart money has been betting on the end of oil for some time.
     

  30. Re:There is no such thing. by Beezlebub33 · · Score: 1

    That's a really stupid definition of 'renewable' then. What does it mean? Solar panels do not last forever, they decrease in output over time until they need to be replaced. Wind turbines need maintenance, and eventually they fail. so, hydroelectric is not renewable because in 100 years it will become silted up? Name one electricity source that has lasted a hundred years.

    --
    The more people I meet, the better I like my dog.
  31. Re:There is no such thing. by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

    $8.3 Billion [wikipedia.org] is not cheap. While it will last for 100 year

    Do you even hear what you're saying? $8.3 billion for a source of clean energy that will last for 100 years? If you don't think that's "cheap", then you need to go take a look at what a new nuclear plant costs (hint: It's around $9billion). And then you've got the little issue of having to put fuel in it.

    --
    You are welcome on my lawn.
  32. Demand Dissapear? Yea, Right! HA-HA. by BrendaEM · · Score: 1

    The only way the demand for fossil fuels will disappear: is if a great segment of the world's population would die or disappear from a nuclear war.
    Of course, Trump's foreign policy, xenophobia, and thoughtless words would make that inevitable.

    --
    https://www.youtube.com/c/BrendaEM
  33. this will happen fast in western nations by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why? Because resale value is going to become a HUGE deal. Anybody buying a MB, Audi, BMW, Caddy, Lexus, Lincoln, etc are already witnessing the loss of resale value. The number of new luxury sedans have plummeted EXCEPT for Tesla Model S. The cars that it is replacing it not just new ones, but the used ones as well. And do you think that the wealthy wants to buy a car that loses half its value in 1-2 years? Nope.
    Then you have MX which is just hitting the market. Within 1 year, you can bet that Luxury SUVs like Escalade, Cayenne, etc will see sales plummet as well.

    Now, we have the Tesla M3. It is already making an impact on the nissan leaf and gm volt. Both are low-end cars compared to the M3, but costs similar to it. The M3 already has over 400,000 pre-orders and you can bet that once production really starts, that they will again, not be able to produce enough cars, even when they are making 1M / year (expected by 2020).

    Then you see the chinese gov is throwing all sorts of money behind getting chinese billionaires to build new EVs. All 4 of the companies in CA has MAJOR money backing them from the CHinese gov. In this case, they are looking at doing as much damage to western companies, esp. American, as possible.

    So, what this means is that by 2025, if not 2020, all new passenger vehicles sold will likely be EVs. Not even hybrids.
    Commercial vehicles, will likely take on a series hybrid approach using nat gas in America. That will leave us free to send oil to Europe to help them stop the russian and middle east imports. Canada will likely import to Europe, Japan, and South Korea.

    Windbourne (modderating).

    1. Re:this will happen fast in western nations by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And do you think that the wealthy wants to buy a car that loses half its value in 1-2 years? Nope.

      The wealthy lease their cars and take a tax benefit. Only you poor "temporarily disadvantaged millionaires" actually buy cars. But hey, keep electing the rich as legislators. Surely they will create tax laws that benefit you! Soon! REAL SOON NOW!

  34. Re:There is no such thing. by jklovanc · · Score: 1

    I am not talking about maintenance of the turbines. I am taking about the reservoirs becoming silted up and unusable. It takes a long time but it eventually happens.

  35. Nuclear.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Which is why I've often suggested that Canada should use it's expertise in CANDU reactors to develop LFTR technology, and become the world super-power in providing clean, efficient, and stable thorium fuel-cycle reactors.

    Much more profitable to do this than waste money on F35 fighters

  36. Sick of Gen IV Nuclear by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Don't get me wrong, Gen IV sounds cool and all but I don't think that it's to anyone's benefit supporting it over current technology.

    Sure, it's something to look forward to in future and fast reactors can burn certain wastes and breed fuels for better sustainability but there are a whole lot of complications to go from where we are now all the way to the advanced fuel cycles needed to sustain Gen IV tech. I say focus on actually achieving a fleet of Gen III before we try to promote Gen IV - on the time scales that matter (particularly for global warming) that is our best bet.

  37. Ontario is a model of clean energy... by KonoWatakushi · · Score: 1

    See the real time data for how Ontario achieves this. In 2015, they produced 90% of their energy from non-fossil sources. (60% nuclear + 24% hydro)

    "It is increasingly plausible to foresee a future in which cheap renewable electricity becomes the world's primary power source and fossil fuels are relegated to a minority status," reads the conclusion of the 32-page document, produced by Policy Horizons Canada.

    This is total BS; even with immense investment the world over, wind and solar haven't even made a dent in fossil fuel consumption. If anything, they cement the position of fossil fuels required for backing up their intermittent and unreliable power. See a short video about the reality of Germany's wind and solar, or one of the many articles about Germany's return to coal for providing reliable power. Their attempt to phase out nuclear has been a very expensive failure, and only succeeded in ramping coal consumption, including construction of new plants.

    "It's absolutely not pie in the sky," said Michal Moore from the University of Calgary's School of Public Policy. "These folks are being realistic -- they may not be popular, but they're being realistic."

    Notice the need to reaffirm their nonsense not once, but three times. The data does not support their position, so they continue to repeat the lie. Sadly, this often works.

    1. Re:Ontario is a model of clean energy... by Nemyst · · Score: 1

      Not just Ontario. Manitoba is 97% hydro and has been since the '90s. Quebec is 96% hydro, much of which comes from the '80s or even older, and is growing wind power capacity. BC is 90% hydro. Newfoundland is about 80% hydro. Alberta and Saskatchewan are very much the odd ducks out of the country, not the opposite.

    2. Re:Ontario is a model of clean energy... by KonoWatakushi · · Score: 1

      Certainly, but hydro resources are typically maxed out or nonexistent throughout most of the world. Existing systems aside, dams also have a significant negative impact on ecosystems and expansion should be avoided where possible.

      Nuclear on the other hand, can be deployed virtually anywhere on a very small footprint with minimal resources, and enables stable and low cost electricity for 60+ years. There are a number of other countries that employ nuclear at a large scale to nearly eliminate fossil fueled generation. France was 80% nuclear at one point, before EU renewable targets started dragging them backward. There are no examples of large scale renewable deployments that actually deliver upon the promises, nor does the data provide any realistic expectation that it is even remotely possible.

    3. Re:Ontario is a model of clean energy... by Citizen+of+Earth · · Score: 1

      Not to mention that Ontario's brain-damaged energy policy has given the province the highest-cost electricity in North America and the largest debt of any sub-national government in the world. High energy costs are pretty much kryponite to the province's struggling manufacturing industries.

    4. Re:Ontario is a model of clean energy... by Citizen+of+Earth · · Score: 1

      Not every region wins the geography jackpot. Should everybody emulate Iceland's geo-thermal energy industry?

  38. Is this even possible? by Pollux · · Score: 1

    It is increasingly plausible to foresee a future in which cheap renewable electricity becomes the world's primary power source and fossil fuels are relegated to a minority status.

    Hmm...This article just begs the question: Does the US have a power grid that can provide enough sustainable power to meet that demand? Doing some Googling & some math gets us...

    A) 2.5 trillion miles driven annually in the US

    B) "Electricity becomes the world's primary power source", so we'll call that a majority of miles driven, or 50%, or 1.25 trillion miles

    C) If everyone drove the Tesla Model S, they would get 240 miles on a 70kWh battery, or about 3.43 miles / kWh.

    D) In order to drive 1.25 trillion miles, we need to have available 1.25 trillion miles / 3.43 miles/kWh = 364.4 billion kWh.

    E) The US generates 4 trillion kWh of electricity per year.

    F) The US consumes 3.8 trillion kWh of electricity per year. (Worksheet 7.6.)

    So, it looks like we have about 200 billion kWh to spare, which is, I'm sorry to say, not enough.

    So, how does anyone expect to achieve such a lofty goal if we don't have the infrastructure in place to make it happen? (And if anyone else in the world knows that their nation has the capacity to make it happen within their country, I'd love to know.)

    1. Re:Is this even possible? by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      I'm surprised it's so close, actually. 160 GWh (about 5% of total production) isn't that much capacity to add to supply a total conversion of US vehicles to electric.

  39. Re:Canada? Energy superpower status by Layzej · · Score: 1

    You could be right. It is also possible they have more than they expect to be able to sell before demand for oil disappears. That would explain why they are no longer restricting their output. “The Stone Age did not end for lack of stone, and the Oil Age will end long before the world runs out of oil.” - Sheikh Zaki Yamani, previous Saudi Arabian oil minister.

  40. Power generation by phorm · · Score: 1

    Well, BC in Western Canada does pretty well at power generation through hydroelectric etc. I believe that Alberta is also looking at wind power but that's likely not as effective. Mobile storage may be another concern but they can generally control levels at the dams by adjusting the floodgates.

    Petroleum products won't go away, but as a fuel source it may decline. We'll still have a lot of use for such things as plastic, rubber, asphalt, etc which all use petroleum products to some extent.

    1. Re:Power generation by Mashiki · · Score: 1

      Hydroelectric and wind only works as long as environmentalists don't throw a hissy fit over the installation of it. Which is what you're seeing in BC and Alberta.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
  41. Re:There is no such thing. by jklovanc · · Score: 1

    If you want a fair comparison you should add the following costs;
    1. The transmission lines to get the electricity to where it is used. Dams have a tendency to be far from population centres.
    2. Maintenance on the generators and transmission lines.
    3. Environmental costs from flooding large areas of river valleys.

  42. Nice editing by Comboman · · Score: 5, Informative

    a Vancouver-based cleantech fund

    Another 'company' with everything to benefit from x going away by declaring 'X is dead' 'fossil fuels are on the way out' Sick of this "x is dead' shit.

    Nice bit of editing there. The full quote is:

    a Vancouver-based cleantech fund created through a $100-million partnership with Cenovus and Suncor

    In case you don't know, Cenovus and Suncor are major producers of dirty Canadian tar-sand oil. So a more accurate assessment would be:

    Another company with everything to lose by declaring fossil fuels are on the way out is hedging its bets.

    --
    Support Right To Repair Legislation.
    1. Re:Nice editing by fatwilbur · · Score: 1

      They've all rebranded as energy companies anyway. They'll go wherever the return is and their interest is in the long term sustainability of the company in the interest of shareholders (most of whom are large pension/retirement/union funds). It only makes sense to diversify for all possible futures. Are you crazy enough to think any board nowadays would say "we're 100% all in in the oil industry forever!"?

      You can guarantee this is about someone looking for money for their pet cause/business, regardless of which one listed it is. To think anything else is incredibly naive.

    2. Re:Nice editing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      a Vancouver-based cleantech fund

      Another 'company' with everything to benefit from x going away by declaring 'X is dead' 'fossil fuels are on the way out' Sick of this "x is dead' shit.

      Nice bit of editing there. The full quote is:

      a Vancouver-based cleantech fund created through a $100-million partnership with Cenovus and Suncor

      In case you don't know, Cenovus and Suncor are major producers of dirty Canadian tar-sand oil. So a more accurate assessment would be:

      Another company with everything to lose by declaring fossil fuels are on the way out is hedging its bets.

      It's not dirty, nor is it "tar sand", you inconsiderate clod!

  43. Re:Canada? Energy superpower status by iONiUM · · Score: 1

    I suspect this is exactly the case. They want to see while the getting is good, although I still think they would have made more by keeping prices higher, rather than flooding it and trying to make it up on volume...

  44. Re:There is no such thing. by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

    If you want a fair comparison you should add the following costs;
    1. The transmission lines to get the electricity to where it is used. Dams have a tendency to be far from population centres.

    Whereas nuclear plants are built downtown in city centers?

    2. Maintenance on the generators and transmission lines.

    Nuke plants don't need maintenance, apparently.

    3. Environmental costs from flooding large areas of river valleys.

    No environmental costs with nukes. You can use the waste for fertilizer.

    --
    You are welcome on my lawn.
  45. Re:There is no such thing. by jklovanc · · Score: 1

    Whereas nuclear plants are built downtown in city centers?

    There is a big difference between 50 miles and 1,000 miles,

    Nuke plants don't need maintenance, apparently.

    Never said that. Just said that it needs to be in the comparison.

    No environmental costs with nukes. You can use the waste for fertilizer.

    See above.

  46. Fantasy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is pure fantasy.Renewables simply can not do the job. Nuclear is your only non-fossil fuel option. Those are just the facts, if you do just a tiny bit of research to see this. Take a look at Pandora's Promise. Very informative documentary.

  47. The future is ALWAYS a threat. Get over it. by RubberDogBone · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The future is and has always been a goddamn threat. People hate change. Which is ironic because change is one thing people cannot control.

    Here's the real deal about the future of fossil fuels, and cars in particular. It's sobering. Sit down.

    Electric cars make sense for a lot of people, and as a second car for a lot of other people. So they -and hybrids like the Bolt and Prius- will continue to spread. As we transition to electric cars, we are also transitioning to automated driving. This is going to be the huge hit, the asteroid that kills dinosaurs.

    Automated cars will be more fuel (battery or fossil fuels, it won't matter) efficient by taking the most direct route from place to place and coordinating with other cars to avoid the need for sitting at traffic lights. This means they will bypass all those places people used to stop on the way. Food outlets, gas stations stores, all sorts of impulse stores are screwed. People won't bother to direct the automated driver to stop. Hell they might even drive by asleep! A LOT of roadside businesses will whither and die.

    At the same time automated driving spreads, a lot of fast food places will be installing robotic workers. Between restaurants going out of business and robots replacing people, there is going to be MASSIVE unemployment at the bottom of the workforce.

    Automated cars won't crash nearly as much, so body shops and towing services will go out of business too. Electric cars also break down a lot less and when they do, they'll need specialized support, so independant mechanics will also go out of business, or at least have a lot less work.

    With accidents down, the auto insurance business will take a huge hit as people no longer have accidents and consequently need less insurance and pay less premiums. A lot of insurance agents will go unemployed.

    With fewer crashes, highway deaths and injuries will have a huge decline, putting hospitals at risk if they rely upon auto trauma to fund their operations.

    Cities and towns accustomed to writing a lot of traffic tickets will find automated cars won't break nearly as many traffic laws, so revenue will plummet. Many of these places count on speeding ticket revenue and DUI fine revenue to fund the town operations. They're facing a calamity as the money dries up. Tax increases are inevitable.

    So the decline of oil is just one change coming. The changes to society from automated driving and the coming ridiculous unemployment will make the decline of oil look like nothing.

    --
    Sig for hire.
    1. Re:The future is ALWAYS a threat. Get over it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "[explaining 24th-century economics to 21st-century Lily Sloane.] The acquisition of wealth is no longer the driving force in our lives. We work to better ourselves, and the rest of humanity. Actually, we're rather like yourself and Dr. Cochrane."

  48. Canada will still lead. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Canada will still be an energy super power as we have one resource in abundance relevant to renewable energy sources. surface area

  49. Ride The Wave Up by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    With Obama out the situation will change for the better and rapidly. Time to buy KOL (Coal ETF) and URA (Uranium ETF).

  50. Deny overpopulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In Canada it's all propaganda now. The economy is force fed population growth because the people have stopped reproducing due to political correctness, the state religion. All the ecofuels are subsidized to make them palatable. When the subsidies end, no one will be able to afford them, people will generate power more economically with gas generators.

  51. Re: Canada? Energy superpower status by johnsmithperson123 · · Score: 1

    Higher oil prices would have led to greater investment in "renewables", shortening everything.

  52. Sure, right, and oh what a problem. by holophrastic · · Score: 1

    It'll take twenty years before the world stops needing as much fossil fuel as it does now. And then africa with want it's own industrial age. Canadian oil sands will wind up being the easiest-access fossil fuels (better work conditions compared to ocean rigs and such), once global usage begins to dip, so it'll survive to the very last customer.

    Of course, Canada's got a few million square clicks for wind power -- which is still the stupidest most useless form of renewal energy that's also guaranteed to have even bigger environmental problems than fossil fuels (guess what happens when you slow down the wind). And even more land for solar, should it ever become efficient enough at such latitudes.

    But this is all rediculous. There's only one form of environmentally-sourced renewal power that could ever power modern civilization, and it's so obvious.

    I'll give you a hint: every other energy-generation technique to date generates electricity from something, usually turbines and usually driven by boiling water. Wouldn't it be fantastic if we didn't need to generate the electricity that we need from anything? Wouldn't it be great if the electricity that we need were just produced for us directly by mother nature, for free, and fell from the sky as pure and abundant electricity? Say, millions and millions of times per year.

    Ah, to dream.

  53. Already paid for?!?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You are the funniest thing on the internet right now. When I stop laughing I might be able to see again.

    Already paid for? Oh that just cracks me up!

  54. Slashdot gets screwed by the moderation scam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I predict these views will be censored and modded to -1. For a community that supposedly favors the free and open exchange of ideas, Slashdot isn't very tolerant of opposing views. Voicing my opinion that man-boy love is healthy will result in my post being censored to -1. If man-boy love were exploitative, there would be no need to censor dissenting views; the facts would prove the point far better than any moderation. The censorship is necessary because the facts aren't on the side of the anti-pedophilia evangelists.

    FTFY

  55. Re:There is no such thing. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Maintainance. Shovels. Byebye silt.

    Idiot.

  56. Elec Cap by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So, it looks like we have about 200 billion kWh to spare, which is, I'm sorry to say, not enough.

    Nope. Your math makes incorrect assumptions. At night, only a fraction of the power available is consumed. That's where the energy for recharging can / will be generated.

    We generate 4 trillion kwh because there's little load at night (comparatively speaking); the ratio is about 2:1 day:night. So, plenty remaining to charge systems that can be charged at night -- and that's the very nature of storage systems. They can be charged at a time they are not actually in use. Regardless if it is at a primary, secondary, tertiary, etc. level of distribution.

  57. Re:Canada? Energy superpower status by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They're not flooding the market to get volume, they're flooding the market to shut down higher cost producers.

  58. Protest generation by phorm · · Score: 1

    It's not even really "environmentalists" that are the issue, it's career protesters. There was in interview on the news a few months ago about a women who was illegally) picketing one of the big hydroelectric projects. She was talking about how it was affecting locals, jobs, and driving up costs and etc etc. Most of her articles were complete bunk too as local power rates were in fact lower than most of the rest of the country and are in the third lowest in the CONTINENT.

    The best part is when she was asked about where exactly she's from, and it turns out that she wasn't even from the province, or even the COUNTRY. Yes, she came thousands of miles to protest one of the cleanest varieties of energy projects that was nowhere near her and had nothing to do with her or anyone she was close/related to. But hey, there was going to be music, hot-dogs, and dancing at the protest (again, she mentioned all this, inviting people to come join), so why not come up and have a big party!

    At the very least she is ignorant, but I fear that many of these people are not only clueless but actively being used by others to forward their own agenda. Seems it's pretty easy nowadays for a big corp to get a bus-load of people to "protest" something while they themselves hide in the shadows.

    1. Re:Protest generation by Mashiki · · Score: 1

      That's not a surprise, but to be realisitc those career protesters are still evironuts and of the worst kind. Look at the oil pipeline BS. Thousands of people who wanted to speak at the hearings? Oh surprise, thousands of those people didn't live in the country and many of them never put their name in, in the first place. Said environmentalists and career protesters did.

      Oxford county in Ontario has been dealing with them for the last two years, and they've done nothing bug screw with people who live there. If they're not protesting the dump or incinerator they want to build, they're protesting the oil and NG pipelines that run through the county and crying about "how they're all evil and dangerous" or other BS, while slowing everything to a snails pace.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
  59. Canada vs. Saudi Arabia by Plus1Entropy · · Score: 2

    Canada is a third world country that doesn't know it.

    What I mean by that is, the economy is very fragile; it relies incredibly heavily on primary resources. There is pathetically little quaternary industry. Honestly, it is difficult to think of many Canadian R&D companies that are world players, in spite of it being the 10th largest economy in the world: RIM (now Blackberry, we all know how that's been going), Bombardier, Ubisoft Montreal (seriously that's the 3rd one I could come up with).

    Here in Calgary (where all the big O&G companies are based) we used to have a decent tech sector, but that died 10-15 years ago. Everybody just kinda shrugged and said "Meh, we got oil.". We're a one trick pony, and everyone's bored of our act.

    Not only that, but even within the oil-sands, there was such a pig-headed attitude towards innovation. They would rather do things the old and expensive way because they trusted it more. The number one priority was keeping the rig running: barrels per minute * price per barrel, that's all that mattered. So if you came to them with a new product that was 10x faster, 10x cheaper, 10x smaller, etc., they just look at you and say "It looks different from the one I'm using." I wish I was kidding.

    If the oil-sands had spent some of the time innovating and reducing the cost of production, while they had the money to do so, they may not be in such a terrible situation as they are now. "Oil will never drop below $100." Now they're scrambling to cut costs just to stay alive. Well guess what, you can't improve production costs overnight, but you can layoff thousands of people.

    Imagine how great it would be if we (Western nations) could tell the Saudis what they could do with their oil surplus? Nope, instead we've got to pander to one of the most brutal dictatorships in existence. All of our leaders (Obama, Harper, Hollande, Cameron, and more) go to "pay their respects" at the funeral of a man whose government routinely punishes rape victims worse than the rapists themselves; a government that is one of the (if not THE) major instigator of Islamic terrorism worldwide, both directly and indirectly through the spread of Wahhabism.

    This entire problem has been generated by the Saudis, to crush any competition from producers who can't compete at lower oil prices. They don't even have us by the balls. We're squeezing our own balls, and thanking them for the privilege.

    --
    Only crack the nuts that crack. You don't put the ones that don't crack in the sack.
    1. Re:Canada vs. Saudi Arabia by wyHunter · · Score: 1

      Applause. I think you have hit the nail on the head.

  60. Adapt or Die: The real message to Canada by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

    The cold hard fact is that we're past the tipping point. This is for the species, boys and girls.

    If Canada wants to survive, they need to get rid of all tax subsidies, tax exemptions, depreciation, and tax exclusions for all fossil fuels, no matter what they are.

    And take any resulting funds and plow them into First Nations job creation in building renewables.

    All renewables. Solar, wind, hydro, forest waste biofuel.

    Not pipelines

    Adapt. You have very little time.

    --
    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
  61. uranium by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Meh, when the oil is no longer economical to produce, they'll turn their efforts back to Uranium and become Energy super power again.