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Big Tech Squashes New York's 'Right To Repair' Bill (huffingtonpost.com)
Damon Beres, writing for The Huffington Post: Major tech companies like Apple have trampled legislation that would have helped consumers and small businesses fix broken gadgets. New York state legislation that would have required manufacturers to provide information about how to repair devices like the iPhone failed to get a vote, ending any chance of passage this legislative session. Similar measures have met the same fate in Minnesota, Nebraska, Massachusetts and, yes, even previously in New York. Essentially, politicians never get to vote on so-called right to repair legislation because groups petitioning on behalf of the electronics industry gum up the proceedings. "We were disappointed that it wasn't brought to the floor, but we were successful in bringing more attention to the issue," New York state Sen. Phil Boyle (R), a sponsor of the bill, told The Huffington Post.
Leave it to the Huffington Post to somehow blame lobbyists without blaming the people they lobby. The only way they "gum up the proceedings" is by their influence with the leaders in the legislature, who are the ones who actually control the proceedings.
A bill doesn't get a vote in the legislature because not enough of the right members wanted to vote on it (for a variety of reasons, I'm sure). You can't blame that strictly on the lobbyists without removing the responsibility of the members of the NY State Assembly and Senate for what they decide to vote and pass.
The party of stupid and the party of evil get together and do something both stupid and evil, then call it bipartisan.
It says so in the User Manual. You void the warranty if you open it. And non-approved repairs leave you liable for any subsequent damages to persons or property from fire, explosion, radiation, hearing or vision loss, or children swallowing small parts. And probably looking inside is a criminal violation of the terms of service.
The rest of the world calls it corruption.
The US calls it 'lobbying'.
If the manufacturer has processes in place that will brick a device if you try to fix it... Don't buy the pile of shit.
I want the ability to repair my own devices. At the simplest level, even just replacing batteries in phones is something I want, and I chose my phone because it had that. Then, I can solder (but not at phone-type scales) and have modest knowledge about analog and digital circuits, and have successfully repaired consumer electronics I bought in the 1970's and 80's.
But I have to question whether this is something that matters to most people. Because if it does, it's really hard to see it. People having been moving their purchase decisions more and more away from devices that can be repaired, towards "sealed shut" devices, or devices with heavy vendor lock-in and/or DRM.
If people want this ability, they need to consider it when buying things, so that there is an economic incentive for companies to sell devices that can be repaired. Money talks, bullshit walks. If it's more profitable to sell non-repairable devices, companies will! It has to be more profitable to sell repairable ones instead, which means people need to make sure those succeed in the market, and the "welded shut and DRMed" devices fail.
So far I have seen no sign that people want anything but "welded shut and DRMed". They seem very happy to buy such things. So: company is happy because they get lock-in and new sales instead of repairs, and consumers are happy, because ... well I dunno why actually, but clearly they are, because that's what they throw their money at.
just wait for just wait for cars to be this way! dealer only is they really want and with that even stuff like an oil change may cost $50 + labor.
Our "democratic" process is just an elaborate dog-and-pony show designed to make us feel like we have a voice in governance, when really the only voices that matter are those of the super-rich.
People get really defensive when I point this out, because they like believing that we live in a democracy (ahem, constitutional republic), and that our representatives represent us, and that our votes matter.
Wanting something to be true does not make it true.
if it costs too much to repair the broken phones & gadgets will end up in a landfill and consumers will just buy new, but that is probably what the big corpirates had in mind anyway, those bastards are the kinds of bastards that killed Kenny
Politics is Treachery, Religion is Brainwashing
Sheep stew cooked up by our very own oligarchy, with just a soupçon of lip-service.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
It's become difficult to always ensure the product you're buying is the revision that is still unbrickable. Just look at the WRT54G for instance. There was a period where people were still buying thinking they were getting the earlier edition when they were actually getting models with less ram/flash. Some manufacturers even changed cpu architectures under the same model number without external indications on the packaging which version was inside.
If people wanted more repairable devices, they would have bought them.
Instead consumers have, in droves, chosen to buy MORE RELIABLE sealed devices that they do not have to screw with.
I'm not just talking about the iPhone, or the other Android phones that all followed suit. I'm talking about cars, about appliances, almost everything is more more contained, much better sealed, and much harder to repair.
If the world wants more "repairable" things then by all means make them and ell them. But do not demand that companies ruin products in the pursuit of a goal few are interested in.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I'm a huge fan of EFF, iFixit, and other groups that supported and pushed this legislation. I hope my Monday morning quarterbacking isn't misconstrued. But I studied the USA's warranty and repair laws passed in the 1960s (Ralph Nader's origins), which were in response to Vance Packard's 1960 book "The Waste Makers". The allegations of "planned obsolescence" really alarmed people and led to the strongest car and electronics warranty laws in the world. Those laws are all completely out of date (predating software), but trying to start from scratch may be a tactical error.
Today's repair advocates, are in the right place... but perhaps missing out by by not recruiting some Consumer Rights veterans. Maybe they could market this to the retired people who remember the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act of 1975 etc. Seniors who, replaced their own auto spark plugs, they tend to vote in high numbers and could have been sending a signal to legislators. The advocacy I saw for this Right to Repair law was promoted by a younger, cooler, Makerspace set, I didn't see many allies from Ralph Nader's generation. It would be hard to win funding of VA hospitals without marketing it to/through the war Veterans. Just my 2 cents.
Gently reply
Hey, just because not enough people are voting for YOU, don't get salty and complain that the system's fixed.
Vote fraud aside, the last say still comes from the ballot box. If your constituents don't appear to vote in agreement with you, it might be because they don't agree with you.
just wait for just wait for cars to be this way
The majority of Slashdot is pushing for this. People want autonomous cars that you call on demand and don't have to own or maintain themselves.
So -- anything that goes wrong with your iPhone, computer, etc. is required to be covered by a manufacturer issued repair guide that's available to the customer? Since when has that been required for anything you buy, even remotely? Not even your dumb refrigerator manufacturer is required to tell you how to fix it.
And in what level of detail / remedy would it have to explain how to repair the item? My laptop's GPU has a few transistors that got fried. Are they saying Apple has to tell me how to disassemble the chip, do nanosurgery on it and refabricate a few layers of silicon? Or that "get a new laptop" is sufficient to fix the issue?
Nice sentiment, but full of holes in how it would be implemented.
Given that these tech firms pushed to destroy this, the alternative should have been to mandate a minimum 3-year warranty (I'm looking at you, Apple!)
AC comments get piped to
Here are some facts about "the last say [coming] from the ballot box".
That is why I said "it is clear, just look." The facts are as plain as day and in the public view. The super-rich get their measures passed, regardless of how the majority feel about them.
There are actually quite a few layers of separation between votes and federal law. And they are all (or at least, most) a matter of public knowledge. You just haven't done your homework.
Even normal, non-autonomous cars are becoming this way. It used to be it was easy to replace the vendor's radio system with your own using a standard form factor and connections. Now, it's "infotainment" tied closely into the rest of the car, and will throw codes if you try to remove it. Aftermarket alternatives are less and less available as this stuff becomes more and more proprietary.
DRM'ed internal buses in the car are also becoming a thing.
Self-driving or not, this is coming.
re-elect no one
forbid government employees from becoming lobbyists.
Any gearhead should be able to open and fix stuff on their own. It's really not that hard, and you can buy everything everywhere. What's the point?
The problem with the Fix-it-yourself is when something goes wrong with their fix-it attempt. Are they still going to send it in for service? You bet they are. "Really, I have no idea why all the capacitors are from 2016 when I bought the thing in 2010. And I didn't reflow that solder either."
Gerrymandering, lying, election fraud, rigging which politicians will even show up in the primaries, ensuring that any contestant must have access to millions of campaign dollars, etc, etc, etc.
And when a candidate who's not pro-establishment manages to overcome the hurdles presented, they get death threats, or their own party might conspire against them to have them removed from the running.
Exactly what will it take for you to accept that the system is has become completely corrupted?
Your market collective sounds like a bunch of commies. Why should they decide what I can buy?
What is the next thing, forcing companies to repair stuff regardless of the economics of it?
No, the simple solution is to revoke all copyright and patent privileges from the product so that anybody can legally repair or sell replacements. See, the idea here is make sure we have an open market. We can't let people with all the money use government resources to close it off from the rest of us.
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
If the people really want this, they should be able to override their elected bribesmen, err... congresscritters... err... you know who I mean.
Many of you are missing a very simple fact. Making something repairable also makes it more complex, more expensive and probably less reliable. There is a lot to be said for the heat transfer and protective properties of encasing something in glue. I know a lot of you geeks would love to have everything put together with little screws so that you can bring out your cool little screw driver set and go to work. Have you priced a nice Swiss watch lately? And all it does is tell time.
This stuff is way too complex to make it so every jerk with a tool box and a soldering iron can fix it when it breaks. That ship done sailed. Get over it. Go into woodworking if you have to work with your hands.
Did you ever see some of those prehistoric insects encased in amber? Ever wonder why they're still around a million years later?
A simlar law is on the books for CA but they just ignore it. Have a broken kindle fire... tried to get parts and repair manual to fix and Amazon says the best they can do is give me a discount for new one. They did not care when I quoted the law.
Below California Civic Code 1793.03 (b) is pasted for your reference:
(b) Every manufacturer making an express warranty with respect to
an electronic or appliance product described in subdivision (h), (i),
(j), or (k) of Section 9801 of the Business and Professions Code,
with a wholesale price to the retailer of one hundred dollars ($100)
or more, shall make available to service and repair facilities
sufficient service literature and functional parts to effect the
repair of a product for at least seven years after the date a product
model or type was manufactured, regardless of whether the seven-year
period exceeds the warranty period for the product
Our "democratic" process is just an elaborate dog-and-pony show designed to make us feel like we have a voice in governance, when really the only voices that matter are those of the super-rich.
People get really defensive when I point this out, because they like believing that we live in a democracy (ahem, constitutional republic), and that our representatives represent us, and that our votes matter.
Wanting something to be true does not make it true.
Close, but not quite.
The super-rich voices matter a lot, but (1) there are some issues where even an individual letter or call can tip the scale--not many, but they exist. (2) Congresspeople need so much money every day that most of the time, your money doesn't buy you a voice on an issue. Also, (3) there are LOTS of ways to be listened to--but they involve using leverage. You don't approach your person individually most of the time--you do it by supporting an organization that lobbies or otherwise works on issues you care about, whether they do that through legislators or through direct service or through the courts.
The ACLU does an amazing amount of work fighting for individual liberties, for example, filing briefs in lots of important cases throughout the country defending your rights. But whether you do it through the ACLU or the EFF or the AFL-CIO or even the NRA, unless you are amazing at influencing public discourse then you get YOUR influence by supporting the specific groups you mostly agree with. What the super-rich buy with money, you buy with a voting block and a block of voices.
(Also, by acting to influence your local and state reps.)
Real lawyers write in C++
I added that wording specifically to draw in people like you so I could add in more information on that point.
The fact is that all of my laptops with sealed batteries, all of my phones with sealed batteries, all modern cars I have owned have been MORE RELIABLE. They have had better battery life, and devices with sealed batteries have NEVER needed batteries replaced after years of service where all of my older devices with replaceable batteries had to have them replaced every six months to a year. I hated that, but need do that no longer...
If you want more battery life, everyone on earth but a handful of cranks have realized it's better to have a device with better battery life to being with, then bring an extra battery pack if needed (which can be much more portable then a spare battery for a phone since it can be any shape or size).
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
We're not talking asinine BS like how the DMCA forbids you from modding your Playstation... on your own and with no interaction with, or aid from, Sony. Many of these laws place some very onerous requirements on the vendors.
They require vendors to surrender internal documentation, designs, schematics, and procedures to pretty much any random un-vetted third party that wants them. This includes software patches and updates, and sometimes even private signing keys. Sometimes the vendor is required to let these people piggyback on their own parts and supplies chain, rather than have the repair shops establish their own supplier relationships. They usually abrogate the usual NDA requirements for third-party partners. And they almost always require all of that with no compensation.
No company in their right mind would let that pass without fighting tooth and nail against it.
Imagine all the people...
Instead of right to repair, the current warranty offerings (90 days) are more like the right to throw away when it breaks and purchase a new product.
I can understand that some products due to their intricacy may be designed to not be serviceable by anyone but the manufacturer, but if that is the case, then a longer warranty period is justified to make up for the fact that it is unserviceable. I think the EU has the right idea with trading standards bureaus and statutory minimum warranty periods. (I will probably get arrows from my fellow America Citizens on this)
...aren't so Liberal, are they?
"Big Tech" sounds like the name of a bluetooth enabled sex toy.
You are welcome on my lawn.
They've already got a weird mix of laws such that it might pass there.
You would have a better argument if our choices weren't only Douche or Turd Sandwich.
Good-bye
Case law has already been settled on this for cars decades ago. At some point the tech shops are going to have to follow suit, the pressure is there, just like it was for cars.
Good-bye
Yeah, the systemic corruption levels in the American political system are obviously just the figment of the imagination of teenage angst. Your "adult" denial is endearing...
Best comment made so far.
"adults" are some of the most delusional people I've met.
Mostly random stuff.
The majority of Slashdot is pushing for this. People want autonomous cars that you call on demand and don't have to own or maintain themselves.
Yes, there are people who want transit, even personalized transit, to be part of infrastructure. Do you complain that you don't own or maintain roads, or the cables internet and power arrive on? Do you want to own and maintain the train or plane you ride? Why should it have to be that way with cars?
so we can have an actual government that represents us?
It's designed to limit cronyism and avoid the dumbest, greediest rulers. By this measure, I think a certain country has failed to be a democracy, more than once.
When corporations can buy political campaigns, only their voice will be heard. The USA is proof of this.
The existence of political parties, means politicians serve their party first. This is frequently forgotten.
Even normal, non-autonomous cars are becoming this way. It used to be it was easy to replace the vendor's radio system with your own using a standard form factor and connections. Now, it's "infotainment" tied closely into the rest of the car, and will throw codes if you try to remove it.
Honestly, I actually believe that the integration of "infotainment" systems has more to do with resource-sharing cost and space savings than proprietary lock-in.
I mean, how many REDUNDANT, separate displays and control-clusters do you need/can you fit in a frickin' CAR?
Now I DO think that some industry-standards (sort of like CAN, for example) could help a lot; but then a "car stereo" would have to get much more complex (and thus more expensive) to be able to display/control arbitrary "automotive" functions in addition to its primary duty of "entertainment".
At this point, a good bit of the "entertainment" stuff is expected to be transacted over Bluetooth from the phone sitting on the seat or in your pocket. You can still generally upgrade power amps and speakers; so it's just the "player" part that is harder to replace with the old-skool Pioneer Cassette Deck you can buy at Walmart.
But as I said, that is fast becoming irrelevant.
Certainly there is some country in the world where an owner's right to repair has been established. America sucks so it's not America, but you sound like you know more.
Please tell me which countries enforce their citizens right to repair their devices. I want to find a country that doesn't suck the way America does. Thanks.
when the congress and the courts fail us, do not represent the people we have a problem. Neither are permitted to represent a well funded anything. They are solely beholden to the people, not money, not loudest, not squeakiest wheel.
"The masses" are mostly stupid people. There are some smart ones thrown in, but the majority are clueless and happy that way. They make snap-judgements about critical political issues based on an amazing dearth of facts, and select candidates based on the most shallow and frivolous of criteria. They are, in short, completely incapable of self-governance on a national level.
A corrupt but competent leader can keep the show on the road. A well-intentioned but incompetent leader will ruin the show before it even starts.
While it may not be fair that rich people have more say in government than poor people...if it were the other way around our country would swallow itself in half a day.
But hey, let's keep calling each other racist and sexist over made up labels. That'll surely take out the source of inequity in this country.
Uhm...no.
What display has been *removed* from a car since the inception of the infotainment system? Cars still have both dashboards and radio readouts. In many cases the climate controls have indeed been consolidated into the screen, but the standard set of knobs were their own readout. Not that hard, and it's not like the space has been more efficiently utilized for anything since.
If the lock-in wasn't a requirement, there's no reason why things didn't stay double-DIN and have standardized connectors that allowed any "with climate control" stereo to fit in the dash and have additional inlets for steering wheel buttons and backup camera displays. the lack of these things indicate that, even if it wasn't an intended change to make everything proprietary, it was an outcome that seemed to have happened to basically everybody at basically the same time.
It's not the cassette deck that people are looking to use in their car. Remember - cars typically have about a ten year useful life. Ten years ago, there was no iPhone, and if you had a SatNav in your car, it required a $500 map DVD. Not too long ago, there were a handful of radios that supported Napster To Go, a service that was ahead of its time...but is utterly useless now.
The ability to change out entertainment systems when the technology changes is incredibly helpful, and even if I give a massive amount of faith to the auto industry, they went from non-proprietary to proprietary, for reasons that do not benefit me.
With TTIP? Har har. None! Get used to the brave new corporate world!
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Honestly, I actually believe that the integration of "infotainment" systems has more to do with resource-sharing cost and space savings than proprietary lock-in.
Then why did they feel the need to encrypt the communication between the body ECU and the engine ECU, if not to lock out aftermarket programmers?
And when States make Laws that prevent the removal of all of the computer controlled stuff, they are effectively supporting this proprietary lock-in.
If it's so bad, and you're so smart, fix it.
Honestly, I actually believe that the integration of "infotainment" systems has more to do with resource-sharing cost and space savings than proprietary lock-in.
Then why did they feel the need to encrypt the communication between the body ECU and the engine ECU, if not to lock out aftermarket programmers?
And when States make Laws that prevent the removal of all of the computer controlled stuff, they are effectively supporting this proprietary lock-in.
Well, encryption of internal busses MIGHT, just MIGHT be an anti-hacking measure.
The States made engine-controller anti-circumvention laws for EMISSION CONTROL purposes. So blame the EPA.
Look, I have a double-layer tinfoil hat at the ready at all times myself; but sometimes, it really ISN'T a Conspiracy. And this is one of those times.
lol
and then they will quit making the old ones. Just tried to replace my old school radio. Just a $20 piece of chinese crap or a $300 modern interpetation makerted to restorers that is probably even cheaper to make :(
And look, no votes at all, NY corruption at it's finest.