Slashdot Mirror
BBC: UK Votes To Leave The European Union (bbc.com)
An anonymous reader quotes a report from the BBC: The UK has voted by 52% to 48% to leave the European Union after 43 years in a historic referendum, a BBC forecast suggests. London and Scotland voted strongly to stay in the EU but the remain vote has been undermined by poor results in the north of England. Voters in Wales and the English shires have backed Brexit in large numbers. The referendum turnout was 71.8% -- with more than 30 million people voting -- the highest turnout since 1992. London has voted to stay in the EU by around 60% to 40%. However, no other region of England has voted in favor of remaining. Britain would be the first country to leave the EU since its formation -- but a leave vote will not immediately mean Britain ceases to be a member of the 28-nation bloc. That process could take a minimum of two years, with Leave campaigners suggesting during the referendum campaign that it should not be completed until 2020 -- the date of the next scheduled general election. The prime minister will have to decide when to trigger Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty, which would give the UK two years to negotiate its withdrawal. Once Article 50 has been triggered a country can not rejoin without the consent of all member states. British Prime Minister David Cameron is under pressure to resign as a result of the decision. UK Independence Party (UKIP) leader Nigel Farage called on him to quit "immediately." One labor source said, "If we vote to leave, Cameron should seriously consider his position." Several pro-Leave Conservatives including Boris Johnson and Michael Gove have signed a letter to Mr. Cameron urging him to stay no matter the decision. Mr. Cameron did say he would trigger Article 50 as soon as possible after a leave vote.
Update 6/24 09:33 GMT: David Cameron has resigned.
Update 6/24 09:33 GMT: David Cameron has resigned.
The sheer showing the finger value to 'experts' is amazing in this one!
Scotland (which recently voted to stay in Great Britain because they were told they would drop out of the EU if they left the UK) and Northern Ireland voted to stay in. England and Wales voted to get out.
So Small Britain, or the United Kingdom of England and Wales, will leave the EU.
Probably, we will see Northern Ireland join the Irish Republic and Scotland to become independent during the next 2 years.
Germany "raped" Greece? How so? The Greeks very predictably couldn't run their own country - or rather, they ran it into the ground. What was the rest of the EU supposed to do? Just give them money endlessly with no consequences or responsibility to change their ways?
In the EU when people say "free movement" what they actually mean is "cheap labour". That's great for multinationals and very large national businesses, but horrible for anyone trying to pay the mortgage/rent, maintain the family and so on.
For the uninformed, the EU is undemocratic: no legislation can be passed without the say-so of unelected bureaucrats (the European Commission) which voters cannot feasibly remove from power (because the system for appointing them is highly indirect and opaque). Much opposition to the EU stems from this. UK democracy isn't perfect (e.g. voting isn't proportional, and the unelected House of Lords can delay legislation) but voters can and do change the government and change policy direction through the ballot box.
perl -e 'fork||print for split//,"hahahaha"'
Here's the naked truth from an Spaniard:
1) UK got privileges no other country got:
- They kept their old monetary unit (GBP)
- They kept the *right to refuse entry* (not signed SENGEN)
- They kept the old measuring unit system (instead of International System)
- They kept colonies in other countries of the EU (Gibraltar) even though it's clearly illegal and have a specific article forbidding it.
Etc.
2) The Universal Declaration of Human Right, which all countries are obliged to comply with as is *written* in the European Treaties and Constitution, says clearly:
Art. 1. All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
3) As the UK did not comply with the "rights" part of the UDHR, forced by the EU Constitution and International Treaties, and shitted in the treaties that form the core and meaning of the EU (SENGEN, no colonies, etc.) I can say anything but...
GO F**K YOURSELVES
PS: It's a pity that Ireland got kicked too due to their stupidity.
RIP our stupid country and the idiots who live in it. Looking forward to people suddenly realising that the EU are going to actually negotiate our access to the single market rather than completely surrendering to us. Would be pretty ironic if we ended up getting forced into Schengen.
First order of business should be to sign all the free-trade deals that the EU was preventing. Canada, Australia, China, etc.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
By insisting on Greece paying debts at a rate that is insurmountable and not providing any form of relief. Had Greece been out of the EU, they could have devalued their currency and/or defaulted on their debts. After a couple of years of turmoil they could have achieved sustainable growth. I suggest reading: https://yanisvaroufakis.eu/ if you care about it.
So back to my statement - it was clear that Greece had made a lot of mistakes. Should it have been raped for them? What's they purpose of the union, then?
I mean, John Oliver eviscerated the Leavers on his show! How could this happen? How could racist old white men hijack the vote? It is 2016!
Ummm. Isn't this want everyone wants? A weak currency? Everyone says China is getting stupid rich and kicking everyone's ass because their currency is weak. It isn't fair! Weak currency == unstoppable.
So now the pound has dropped a lot. All of England's exports just got cheaper. We need US businesses to call them an unfair currency manipulator and push for high tariffs. That will fix things! (this is sarcasm. Something no one seems to get here.)
Me thinks those Savile row suits just became a lot better looking.
Seriously, A weak pound will help the UK. It is a plus when selling your goods. More people will visit.
but more about who is out,- who is not in, or not in yet, or almost in, or practically in except currency, etc.
There is the UN United Nations Organization. It is a comprehensive universal framework. However it seems that for some countries it is beneath dignity to work in an universal organization together with all others, and that is why this drive create small elitist unions, to show off that they better than others. But it will not work in a globalized world.
The Greeks very predictably couldn't run their own country....What was the rest of the EU supposed to do? Just give them money endlessly with no consequences or responsibility to change their ways?
The reasonable alternative would have been to allow Greece to declare bankrupcy and allow those banks who invested in Greece to fail.
No, it wasn't. It was restructured for a longer payoff and is still unsustainable. During the last year's standoff, the Troika dangled a carrot of 20% write-off - it failed to materialize, even though Greece imposed austerity on the level that has not been seen in a peacetime in Europe.
Agreed, it was Greece that mismanaged its finances. But Germany did screw up Greece by imposing more and more austerity measures just when the country needed a boost from fiscal spending. Austerity does no good in the short term. Remember, when Lehman Brothers, Bear Sterns et al went down, if US govt prescribed austerity where do you think US economy and unemployment would have been? Instead, the Fed bailed out all and sundry. And that resulted in a quick recovery and a return to stability of the markets. In the long run, the country needs structural reforms and a return to fiscal discipline. But in the short run its fiscal spending that delivers a shot in the arm. So Germany didn't give Greece a shot in the arm when it was ailing. Also, Greece unfortunately is also in the currency block. And the ECB is... well no body understand how its supposed to function including the people running ECB. If Greece had its own currency, a currency devaluation, and may be a QE would have helped Greece. But the Euro is not in its control. And Germany does not want a devaluated Euro because they are doing good. I think its best in the long run that the the Euro is disbanded.
Not really. It was pretty clear that exit from Euro was considered a high treason.
And again, it's immaterial. EU has shown that if your government makes a mistake (or even if it doesn't - see "Spain") and you fall on hard times, then instead of getting help you will be beaten into a pulp and left to be picked up by vultures.
I voted "remain" in the end, but it was a close run thing. I'm philosophical about the results; we won't know the real implications for some time. But be under no illusions, this was not just about the EU. Indeed, the EU never really dominated the campaign. It was a rebellion against a long standing political consensus and, in particular, the legacy of Blairism. In essence, Blairism was the marriage of Thatcherite economics to social mores which had previously been the concern of the far left; basically free markets plus multiculturalism. The intention was that over time, the population would buy into that. In London and Scotland, it more or less happened. But in much of the U.K., the population went the other way. An unbalanced economy dependent on financial services squeezed their finances and living standards, while mass immigration forced down wages and created visible, angry, unassimilated immigrant communities in their midst. Moreover, the usual channels of democratic restoration were blocked. Blair's biggest achievement was to foster a media environment which labelled any questioning of the social consensus as racist and a legal system which in some cases made it an arrestable offence. Meanwhile, too many of our institutions changed their ethos from public service to "thought leadership"; trying to reform the population rather than meeting its needs. The vote, I think, needs to be seen as a rebellion against that. I wish the result had been different, but I accept that it wasn't. I live and work in London and my whole circle voted to remain. My parents live in the suburbs of a northern city and they and their circle voted to leave. I had been warning colleagues for weeks that I thought a Leave win was likely; I thought the polling was both running into "social acceptability bias" and underestimating the likelihood that the lower income groups would vote. This, incidentally, is why I would bet on Trump winning in November, scary though that is. And things feel scary in the UK this morning. But a proper discussion of why the vote went the way it did and an acceptance that we need to at least accept and tolerate our divisions rather than widening them would be good first steps.
As it were, it wasn't Third Worlders which caused the UKIP to rise, it was First Worlders, mainly from Poland, which were taking the low paying jobs. And they were paying their taxes and their social insurance, and they were contributing an estimated 5 percent of GDP in the UK. For some reason, doing good work no one else is applying for is frowned upon in the UK.
No, it means that I can work un any EU country without a hassle if I am un the mood for that. It also means that i can retire to any EU country and still enjoy the same benefits and medical services as the citizens. And I will probably retire to Slovakia - low cost of living, beautiful nature and I like slavic languages, except polish that is.
"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
Now the UK is in the unenviable situation to serve as the showcase by which even poor people will learn how much they actually benefit from a huge common market in Europe and how damaging the decision to leave is.
Yeah, because Norway and Switzerland weren't example enough of how bad it is to not be in the European Union.
If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
Ben Riley-Smith @benrileysmith
HOW AGES VOTED
(YouGov poll)
18-24: 75% Remain
25-49: 56% Remain
50-64: 44% Remain
65+: 39% Remain#EUref
6:24 PM - 23 Jun 2016
If they would have waited some years it would been a remain.
There are no stupid questions, Just a lot of inquisitive idiots. (from a good friend)
Doomed is too strong a word, but bear in mind that there's a big difference between never agreeing to join an economic community and telling that community to eff off. If this goes forward, they'll be at the mercy of the remaining EU members, hoping that the EU members don't decide to stick it to them out of spite, and I'd argue that the EU has little to lose by doing so at that point....
Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.
Well they got cheap loans and noone said no since it was in euro and the consensus was that the whole EU stood behind the euro so loans to goverment was safe.
Had Greece had their own currency, they would never have gotten so many loans and thus the mistake would not had happend.
The sadest part is that Greece only was accepted into the euro by "creative" bookkeeping. They should never have been let in. But the leaders of EU wanted so many as possible members nations to join the Euro that even greece managed to squeze in. If the rules to join had been more clear the greece tragegy would never had happen.
It could have been avoided if EU had insisted on sound economy to join the Euro.
Just saying it like it are.
See eu later!
Unlike most European countries, Norway is rich in natural resources (oil and gas). Switzerland is the "secret" stash of European criminals (all collar colours). In a way the UK was justified to compare itself to these countries as long as it was in the EU, but the influence and value of "the City" depends on the EU membership, so the UK will not only find itself without equal access to the common market, and the many concessions it negotiated with the EU wiped out, but also one of the big reasons for its influence on Europe fleeing the country. I understand that people in favor of Brexit are ecstatic now, but they too will learn to understand what damage they've done first and foremost to their own interests.
This is why the UK is fucked. Too many xenophobic bigots, who would burn the place to the ground just to reach an arbitrary target of "tens of thousands" immigrating. I don't even want my fiancee to immigrate any more, such is the blind hatred she would receive. The country is economically fucked anyway.
Time to take my skills elsewhere.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
I wanted to check on the progress of the Brexit vote, so I went to the CNN website, but it only said in large black letters "LEAVE".
Jeez, they didn't have to be so mean about it.
The US has its problems, yes. But it's hardly dead, and that's a pretty dumb thing to say. The US is still the world's largest economy. The US exerts a tremendous amount of political influence. The US has a massive military with a hell of a lot of firepower. That hardly sounds dead to me. In so many ways, the US is actually a rock of stability compared to Europe. Since the Civil War, we haven't had any states seriously try to leave the US. Our Presidency has been handed over peacefully each time to the winner of the election. We haven't fought wars over here in North America for a long time. Despite our faults, the US has been extremely stable and will probably continue to be for a long time. The rest of the world knows it, too. That's why, for example, the dominant reserve currency throughout the world is the US Dollar. If we were truly that bad, the world wouldn't trust the US Dollar. I know that it's practically a sport around here to bash the US, but we've been quite a bit more stable than Europe.
So, how Mexican is Texas?
Maybe those other places aren't much like Iraq either?
The Republican party are already undermining him and cutting off the money supply. It's unlikely that he will make it on his own fortune. If he does, then I agree with you that a lot of people are going to get a shock since they appear to see him as something other than the grasping casino owner who blew a vast amount of inherited money to get to where he is. He'll make Nixon, Ford, Johnson, Clinton and all the rest look like saints in comparison. He'll make Carter look like a political mastermind.
The European Union is not a state, but it has its shortcomings, though. For example, most EU citizens don't really know who prepares the laws, how these people are chosen or elected (often not even elected), how do EU laws affect national drafting of laws and so forth. Even the good things' origin, such as the benefits of a single market, are not known, and people don't realize that it's the EU that allows them to order pretty much anything from another EU country over the Internet without any more hassle than what they would have if they ordered it locally.
I reckon Scotland will be leaving the UK soon and might join the EU as a sovereign state later on. The fate of Northern Ireland is a big question mark, but they're obviously not happy with the UK leaving and this might start a similar political movement there too.
-SR
Well, now that Britain has left the EU, those pesky politics-aware fishermen will be sure not to enter Scottish waters!
Ezekiel 23:20
Well, all these things happened after Greeks mismanaged their country to get into this situation. As desirable as a more lenient approach from Germany and others would be, it won't change Greek history of the 2000s.
Ezekiel 23:20
Yes, because elected and unelected local representatives make more stupid decisions since they don't have to compromise with elected and unelected foreign representatives. Many EU directives are more sensible than the local laws have previously been.
"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
Norway is a great example of what is about to happen to us. A decade long recession, followed by re-joining the common market and accepting all the rules out of desperation.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Had Greece been out of the EU, they could have devalued their currency and/or defaulted on their debts. After a couple of years of turmoil they could have achieved sustainable growth.
While I agree with the first part, I can't see how you can get the second from it. Have you ever worked/lived in Greece, or tried to run a company there? I'd rather try running a company in Nigeria, it has the same level of dysfunctionality and corruption but at least it's out in the open, and you can buy your way past any obstacles. In Greece, everything is unfuriatingly broken but you also typically can't buy your way past the obstacles (exceptions being for medical treatment and similar). I honestly don't know how you can fix that country short of some sort of reformat-and-reinstall.
I'm not saying this to bash Greece, just that having experienced it as a business environment I can't imagine how you'd fix it, there's just no easy solution I can think of.
Well, as long as having to polish your Slovakian doesn't discourage you... ;)
Ezekiel 23:20
But Germany did screw up Greece by imposing more and more austerity measures just when the country needed a boost from fiscal spending.
Problem is it needed responsible fiscal spending, not just spending. Greece is great at spending, but the vast majority of it is completely irresponsible. Providing more money would just have lead to more of the same. The only options were to bring in regulators to tell the Greeks how to spend (which wouldn't have gone down at all well) or to cut off the credit (which didn't go so well either). It's not something that can be fixed by any external agency, you'd need to reform the Greek way of doing business.
And were forced into austerity measures that would leave their people as slaves for the next century.
That was done as an example to Italy, Spain and Portugal (and maybe France too). If Greece had been let off easy, others would have wanted the same deal, and the dominoes would have fallen. By making the bailout prohibitively painful, the Germans created a firewall that stopped the rot from spreading.
As far as I see, not even the EU sceptic UK politicians really wanted this. They just wanted to beat Cameron and probably blackmail the EU. I believe this has backfired, and the UK will suffer. (EU too, but to a much less degree). I'm sure Farage and the rest of the crooks wanted that Brexit fails, but only barely. Now, lets see how UK will fare without the cheap EU workers, increased trade tax, visa to the EU and all the 'good things' non-EU countries have to cope with.
Patents Drive Free Software as Hurricanes Drive Construction Industry
And Britain wants no part of.
Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
From the perspective of a very far on looker (a Canadian living in China), the result of the referendum is very unfortunate. Since WWII, generations and generations of people, with long term vision for a stable and peaceful Europe, had put their weight to form the Union. It's certainly not perfect, but it's better, by a long measure, than the situation in the first half of the 20th century. I am quite amazed that more older generation stand by the Leave camp. I would have thought that they should be the ones who know better. With one referendum, which is more fueled by temporary discontent than calm reasoning, they want to dismantle what took years and years to gradually build up. The chain reactions in the coming years won't be pretty, and I hope I would be wrong.
I was born in Cambodia, been through the Khmer Rouge regime, lost 80% of our family, spent 8 years in a refugee camp in Vietnam, and was lucky enough to be accepted in Canada when I was 18. In the 1990s, I was very happy to see the Berlin wall fall, and that Europeans countries were merging into one block with their interests tightly interconnected, and I could only dream of a same scenario for Asia, a scenario that would take many many more years to even be a prospective, if at all.
The bottom of your society is literally an endless abyss, whereas the EU has a well-functioning security net, and where it's easy to have a high quality of life even with a simple job. But you, you live in a supposed first-world country with third-world living standards in many parts, where people have to take two jobs just to reach the point where they can start counting pennies to make ends meet... and you call the EU a failed state? You Americans are an endless source of unintentional comedy.
Norway has oil, oil and ... oil. Switzerland has banks, banks and ... banks. You simply can't compare Norway with any other country. Norway is the Saudi Arabia of the north and just gives away free money to its citizens in the form of a national fund. Switzerland is also a country you can't compare. It was the only stable country during the 19th and 20th centuries. All other countries have either been invaded or have been in civil wars. Switzerland was neutral, had a booming banking sector for centuries and has been able to profit from all corrupt regimes and wars since the early 19th century. Their neutrality and of course touristic country is what made them rich. Of course they would not vote to throw all this away to join the EU.
Other European countries all profited from the single market, but also suffered from the single currency and the weird laws. The UK has fallen to populism. I really never thought the Brexit campaign would be successful. Yes, there are many things wrong with the EU. Too much super state, too little connection with its population. But populist nationalism? This is never the answer to make things better. But the fault is with the current elites who just do everything the population doesn't want. But in the US it is the same. Democrats who do a childish 24 hour sit down in the parliament (or whatever it is called)? I would never vote for such a bunch of kids, but the alternative today is ... Trump. Well how many Americans will be convinced to not vote when they are democrat by this childish act? And how many swingers will now vote for Trump? If Trump becomes president it is not the fault of the 'racist dumb voters' but of the 'rich educated but ignorant and 'look down upon the average guy' establishment', just like in the UK today.
Geert Wilders, Marie Le Pen, and other extreme right wing or left wing totalitarian politicians are now applauding the Brexit, hoping to destroy the EU and return to the early 20th century, competing on a Darwinian capitalistic way with all means possible including devaluation, tax on imports, .... I hope the stupid establishment will finally listen to the public and immediately stop this multicultural experiment of mass immigration of the third world. We can't even take care of our elderly people. How will we be able to take care for people who can't read or speak the language and still believe in medieval logic. It's this trying to do good and not evil that has given rise to totalitarian left wing and extreme right... (but it is humane, nobody is illegal, everyone deserves a chance, ....)
he probably would've voted leave.
Wanna buy a shirt?
https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
You see to be confused, cheap labour is what the Leave campaign wants. Free trade deals with companies like China, so that manufacturing and services can be moved there. We are trying to become more like the US, where your job gets offshored to somewhere cheaper because there are no rules to protect you.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
It's not even about that Norway is filled with oil and gas and what not (e.g. hydroreources that allow them to generate 140% of their need from renewables at the moment) and Switzerland has insane banking sector.
It's about the role UK had in EU.
From now on there will be no serious player within EU who would try to stop further federalization.
Influence of UK over EU and the whole world will fade.
Even more so, if Northern Ireland/Scotland will leave.
40% of voters in Scotland voted to leave the EU. That may not be the majority, but it's a bit silly dismissing two fifths of the population.
There are a number of obvious contributing factors to Brexit. Nationalism and selfishness are two of the most obvious.
So let's consider the enlightened discussion here on slashdot, this bastion of intellectual turmoil and whatever.
There have been several hundred comments so far. No mention of "nationalism" yet appears. One marginally related but tangential mention of "selfish" and no mentions of "selfishness". Maybe there are some hidden references, but then their invisibility reflects the failure of the moderation system. However, I think Brexit reflects a larger failure of journalism in general and a more specific failure of slashdot in particular.
People who were capable of thinking about the future would not vote in favor of fracturing Europe. They would have been able to put the broader long-term interests of their own grandchildren ahead of their various minor terrors of foreigners stealing their jobs, especially considering that if 52% hated the EU I'd bet that a much higher percentage hate their own jobs and ought to be glad if some immigrants would steal them.
Same rise of ignorant short-sighted stupidity has made it possible for the Donald of Trump to become a serious contender for the presidency, squatting on his bizarre high chair that he imagines as a throne. Don't look too closely at the legs: One leg for the government haters, one for the Hillary haters, a leg of bigots, and a last leg of overt racists. Yeah, a few Trumpists are smart enough to try to talk nice, but scratch a Trump supporter and you find a hater.
My problem with all of this is that I'm a believer in enlightened self-interest (per Heinlein, even). If people see sufficiently large pictures, then they will see how their private and national selfishness has to be limited for the long-term survival of the human species.
Why don't they see the large pictures? I think it's mostly because the existing economic models, including slashdot's pitiful economic models, drive them to short-term BS journalism and reality TV. Brexit and Trumpism are just natural outcomes. Gawd save us all, but he won't. (Even if he existed, it would be a breach of his divinely insane plan.)
Freedom = (Meaningful - Coerced) Choice != (Speech | Beer^2), and sad sock puppets' bad mods avail them naught.
For some reason, doing good work no one else is applying for is frowned upon in the UK.
This is straight up corporate propaganda: people would applying for those jobs if they were remunerated fairly but that's not in the interest of the corporate elite.
"The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
Greece put themselves in massive debt, no one tied them down and said "here, spend this money on hookers and blow and then from next week your arse is mine". What they did was run up the credit card on the equivalent of hookers and blow and then act surprised that harsh conditions were placed on new money. Greece didn't make a lot of mistakes, the problem is they are STILL making a lot of mistakes, hence the draconian conditions.
When you get an highly politicized media forcing a side and pushing and shaming people for not taking it, you may end alienating a large portion of the population and making em disobey you, even when you're pushing for the right decision.
And i bet at least in part, people just voted to leave because the creepy manipulative forceful thing they can't truly trust told em to vote to stay.
Haha... hahahaha... If you think that the UK has a better negotiating position alone than in the EU about free trade, you are seriously deranged.
Patents Drive Free Software as Hurricanes Drive Construction Industry
If they do it before the UK leaves, then maybe we can just have England leave both the EU and the UK at the same time. Looking at the voting map, all of the places with weak economies (including, amusingly, all of the ones that are heavily dependent on EU farm subsidies) want to leave. Maybe we should just kick them out of the UK and let them spend a few years learning what being alone in a global economy is really like.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
Now if only you'd take your posts elsewhere. Reddit perhaps?
Because let us be clear, the biggest problem for the common man in the UK was not the EU but their own government having caused a for a European nation unusual rift between the haves and have nots.
"The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
You must be responding to someone else, since I never mentioned anything about the Greeks deserving anything, nor did I applaud austerity measures.
Ezekiel 23:20
Alex Salmond has already called for a second Scottish independence referendum and I don't see how that can be refuse, the same for NI. I'm pro-union and pro-eu and certainly see Scotland leaving the UK now.
Huh what? GDP from 1960s until today, please do tell when we had a "decade long recession".
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
Fuck London, go build your multinational utopia somewhere that I don't end up paying for it - e.g. see
http://www.theguardian.com/new...
I don't disagree actually - but putting the blame on the EU is the wrong place. It's the government's job to even out the economic benefits, something the last Labour government did barely, and the current one has actively made worse.
If you want a strong UK software development industry then perhaps try training some British graduates instead of hiring fucking EU labour in London.
Would love to, but there aren't enough here to hire.
Before the euro the southern European countries had such free floating and thus constantly devaluing currencies and it never came to stabilise and develop their economies.
They just kept living of others, that has in the case of the Greek joining the euro backfired on them, the Italians and Spaniards seem to have seen the light.
"The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
The picture emerging this morning on social media from friends that had so far kept quiet is that this a kick in the balls for the establishment.
This is not about losing sovereignty but instead bringing it to a higher level.
Once the EU becomes better integrated its (and our) sovereignty will be much more valuable than the present sovereignty of a bunch of individual small countries.
Small includes the UK, Germany and France, because they are small set off against the US, Russia and China.
"The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
We won't get the same deal because we can't walk away. 45% of our exports go to Europe, where as 14% of theirs come here. We have much, much more to lose. In fact for them tariffs on 14% of their exports are a relatively small price to pay compared to further break up of the EU.
Anyway, the UKIPers and Europhobic part of the Tory party will demand we don't agree to freedom of movement, which is an absolute non-negotiable requirement of being in the Single Market and getting the deal we currently have. Again, the EU stands to lose far, far more by giving us an exemption so there is 0% chance they will.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
It has been in the EU for 43 years, it'll do just fine outside it...
If you mean that we'll survive: of course we will. However, what's likely is we'll have yet another long recession followed up by signing up to a bunch of rules we have literally no say in and no way of changing.
It won't be good for us. And it's a great win for xenophobia and stupidity.
It also has the world's 6th largest economy and a very powerful friend in the United States... a LOT of Americans would take the UK's side over the EU's, and if Trump becomes President, so will he...
A friend, like the one who always hovers round offering favours yet never gets as much in return. And ironically, Trump winning may well actually be better for us now than the alternative. I can't find myself supporting him though.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
From now on there will be no serious player within EU who would try to stop further federalization.
That's probably a good thing! I'm not kidding.
I strongly believe Europe is at the wrong level of federalization, one doomed to fail by which I mean the level of federalization by necessity will change, not that Europe will fail. The reason is the central currency without central taxation.
The problem was exemplified by Greece to some extent, though there were other things involved there. For example, Germany has strong exports meaning there is essentially a net flow of money in. Without being to float their currency, the flow of money out of somewhere like Greece does not work well and is not sustainable. This is ALWAYS the case on any national level. There are richer, more vibrant areas (e.g. London in the UK) and poorer, less vibrant ones (say, Wales) and the central taxation means that the money can be redistributed so that the trade hubs don't end up acting as giant black holes.
Now the EU has a central currency, I believe that an EU Federal taxation scheme will eventually happen because there is no way of operating something country sized without shifting money around. It's also the way the US works with the blue states subsidizing the red ones for the greater good (i.e. keeping the country whole).
What may well happen is we leave and stop fucking up Europe. Europe will get stronger and we'll have a recession. Eventually we'll re-join the single market and accept all of the rules. That way we'll have a nice strong Europe to trade with which will be god for us but no influence with which to fuck it up.
Yes that's cynical and no the world isn't that simple but I don't have a whole hell of a lot of faith in my fellow countrymen just now, so cut me some slack, OK?
SJW n. One who posts facts.
You mean like in the US where cheap Southern labor undermines the rest of the country?
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Germany also benefits massively from cheap European workers. And also benefitted massively from loans it made to Southern Europe to buy back its own products. Somehow the media have managed to make it look like the uk has an open door policy but hate all immigrants. Far from the truth on both counts. However the large companies and beuracracies have been in cahoots setting up a large trading block to benefit themselves. Even people in Poland Are coming to realise that they no longer own their own infrastructure any more since it has been privatised and bought out by international companies, but since it is called investment, no one notices. They benefit from international jobs but at what cost? I'm glad we are out since the Nhs was under threat from European threats including Ttipp however it now means we have to make sure the right wing in the uk don't stuff it up on their own. We have less people to blame. Being in control means our level of responsibility has increased.
Well, at least Vladimir Putin and all the new far-right groups in Europe (that are partly funded by Russia) are happy about the outcome.
I wonder about that. Brexit has put downward pressure on oil prices. Russia would need to sell its oil to fund those "far-right groups" and its other ambitions in Europe.
If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
And don't forget that the EU will have to give them a pretty louse "exit package", or risk making exiting the EU "appealing" to others. So, the "negotiations" won't go smoothly, and the UK will probably end up with worse deals than other non-EU countries - even if the EU itself might be losing on them.
Another interesting thing is to note that young people overwhelmingly voted "remain" (it was about 75-25 in the 18-24 category), when the most "leave" votes were in the 65+ category (60-40). So the UK will leave due to the votes of people who won't be part of the non-EU future (for long at least)...
Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. Polar Scope Align for iOS
It's disgusting how a referendum of such significance- far more important than a general election- has been centered around and reported in terms of the internal, up-its-own-arse politicking of the Conservative (Tory) party. Disgusting, but not surprising.
As you say, the whole thing started out as a political sop, designed purely to placate its own right-wing "Eurosceptic" members.
I voted "Yes" in the Scottish independence referendum in 2014 for a number of reasons. A major one was that I knew the EU referendum was on the horizon and I wasn't prepared to risk Scotland being dragged out of the EU by Tories playing political football with the country's future simply to placate their own voter base in the south east of England.
Back then, I still thought it was far more likely than not that the UK would remain within the EU; I just wasn't prepared to risk it.
I look forward to the response of every politician that scaremongered about whether an independent Scotland's position would have the right to remain within the EU during the 2014 referendum. The same people who convinced Scotland to remain a part of the UK (#) and to accept the results of being in bed with an elephant that's barely aware of its existence most of the time. Whether that outcome was the Tory government majority across the UK as a whole in the 2015 general election rendering the SNP's overwhelming majority of MPs in Scotland irrelevant (the Tories got *one* isolated seat here). Or whether that was Scotland being dragged out of the EU against its will by a party and political process that has long been centered around the south-east of England.
I'm not suggesting that all these people- especially not the Labour supporters- wanted a Tory government or the UK out of the EU (Scotland against its will). I'm saying that they placed their own UK-centric interests first, knowing the risk to Scotland. Especially the Labour supporters.
I wonder how many of those people will have the nerve to show their faces now that the scaremongering outcome they claimed would happen if Scotland voted "Yes" to independence has come true thanks to their "No" side winning and the Tory-centric English vote dragging it out anyway.
(#) In particular, I'm thinking of the utterly worthless Labour party (until recently dominant in Scotland) that only got back into power in the 90s- admittedly very successfully- by selling out everything they stood for in order to appeal to Middle England, turning themselves into little more than red Tories. The same Labour party that may now have elected the stereotypically left-wing Jeremy Corbyn as leader (##) but don't stand a cat's chance in hell of getting elected by that same Middle England electorate and can be dismissed as irrelevant.
(##) Someone who at least appeared principled at first- even if I didn't agree with much of what he stood for- but was so utterly lukewarm, half-baked and borderline invisible in his support for "Remain" that one suspects this may have been intentional. (Corbyn was well-known for his Euroscepticism, but claimed to have switched to remain with some reservations. Please excuse my scepticism.)
"Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
There is more thorough analysis available, which basicly states, that the groups Remain and Leave have very distinct properties.
Remainers are younger than 45, live in large towns and have an university degree or are students at an university.
Leavers are older than 45, live in rural and small town regions, mainly in the East and North of England and in Central Wales, and have no university degree.
I found these comments really interesting because you're basically saying that the UK has now become just like the USA. We have the same issues here. People in small towns with no higher education have completely different values and desires from the educated people who live in cities. I can't speak to UK politics, but some of this in the US is the fault of the Republican Party, who in the past decade started embracing anti-intellectuals as a valued voting bloc. In fact, I'd point out that Sarah Palin has made her career out of promoting anti-intellectualism as the solution to all of America's problems. Sorry to hear you're now one of us, UK people.
Now, lets see how UK will fare without the cheap EU workers,
The GB is free to invite as many cheap workers as they want or need, the only difference is that whey will no longer be *forced* to do so.
increased trade tax,
The trade taxes are governed by the European Economic Area, not the European Union. Whether GB stays out of EU but in EEA (like Norway and Switzerland for instance) remains to be seen.
visa to the EU and all the 'good things' non-EU countries have to cope with.
Visas to the "EU" are in fact governed by the Schengen Treaty which has nothing at all to do with the EU, and the standing of GB with respect to the Schengen Zone has not changed one iota because of the referendum.
You know, I wish that GB chose to stay, as my country is going to suffer for its leaving (as now there will be no counterweight at all to the Germany-France tandem, who will proceed to rape the rest of EU in name of their national interests until it completely falls apart). However, boy, I do have the grim satisfaction of someone having the courage to stand up and give the middle finger to crooks and liars like you and the eurocrats, who spew such blatant false propaganda. Attributing every good thing, from hens laying eggs to the sun rising, to the gracious benevolence of the EU.
But the EU is hardly the same kind of union that the USA are. Mostly in the mind of its subjects.
The USA consider themselves a nation. When 9/11 struck, Californians felt as attacked as anyone in New York did. Do you think a Portuguese would give a shit if someone blew half of Tallinn apart? THAT is the big difference.
The EU is an economy union, and only that. With nation states inside trying to rip as much out of the cake that this union is for their own national benefit as possible. With the Brits having been one of the worst offenders of this behavior.
And as long as this doesn't change I will not accept that spiel that "the EU is the biggest economy". Bullshit. The EU as a unified economy doesn't exist. It is a union for corporations trying to maximize their profits, there is not anything tangible in it for the people in the union or their economies beyond the interests of the corporations.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Putin, maybe. The right wing parties in the EU, less so.
Because one thing is certain, the EU will not tolerate easily the exit of a vassal. They will do their worst to punish the Brits for this act of high treason, and it should be pretty tough for the right wing parties in Europe to picture the now most likely dropping economy on the island up there as something they should aspire to.
Especially the right wing populist governments of Poland or Hungary that have been throwing dirt (while at the same time accepting the influx of EU money with open arms) will have a hard time convincing anyone in their countries that it's a good idea to go as well.
Even though if the rest of Europe could vote them out, they'd be gone before they have packed their junk.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
>Well, all these things happened after Greeks mismanaged their country to get into this situation.
Doesn't matter. For starters - that was two governments ago - and most of the people who suffer the most weren't even eligible to vote when the government who did this was in power. But more importantly - it doesn't matter because this is not a solution. It won't help them get out of the situation. It won't even get the creditors some of their money back.
All it will achieve is make sure even less of that debt will ever be paid than otherwise would have.
It's the same reasoning as why we got rid of debtors prison - because it's a stupid solution. Throwing a bad debtor in prison just makes it impossible for him to ever pay the debt. It's to the creditor's advantage to come up with a payment plan that actually gets the debt or part of it paid - and keeps the debtor productive to pay it.
Austerity in Greece has had the same effect as debtors prison and just destroyed what was left of the economy, as it always does - the only thing it ever can do - a simple mathematical fact proven every time it's tried anywhere.
If Greece's debts were truly as bad as was being said -then the solution was the same solution that you or I would take if we ended up with a debt problem on the same relative scale. Bankruptcy. Pay what you can with the assets you have left, and then write of the rest and let you get on with your life and try to rebuild your finances.
Unicode killed the ASCII-art *
Ah, yes, the intellectual royalty has come to tell the peasants how wrong they are. Democracy must suck.
Meanwhile, UK trade with the EU will continue full force. UK trade with Asia and the US will be unaffected, and so on.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
Build a wall, and make the Romans pay for it.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
... the UK will suffer.
I've heard that a lot, but how does it make sense? Was being part of the EU a great thing for the UK? If it was, why didn't they vote to stay?If it wasn't, how can you say the UK will suffer a great hardship from leaving?
The only ways the UK suffers a great hardship on one hand without a great benefit on the other is (1) if the UK is inherently very fragile and the EU was keeping it from disaster, or (2) the EU embarks on a vengeful policy to punish the UK. Is it one of these? Or something else?
Or is "the UK will suffer" a poorly-reasoned (or exaggerated) conclusion?
Our Presidency has been handed over peacefully
Lincoln and Kennedy would disagree with you.
"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
Push for another referendum on independence.
That's essentially what's going to happen.
"Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
Texas keeps threatening to leave, personally I'd tell them yes. Then watch as they try to pay for all of the military bases and hardware that would be removed.
In Arizona, Pima County/Tucson would like to secede as the Arizona Legislature has gone absolutely bat-shit crazy. One of the more interesting recent bits of ritual idiocy is the governator signed a bill adding two seats to the Supreme Court to stuff it with conservatives. The twit who proposed the bill said "We wouldn't have put it forth if the governor was a Democrat."
When you sympathize with stupidity, you start thinking like an idiot.
Don't be silly, there's Italy.
(Pffffff!)
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
"I think this is actually what we want in our society, to create tolerance and acceptance."
I think you misunderstand the xenophobic half of society. I'm American (so not UK), but at least here they are specifically, explicitly, and in all other ways against "tolerance and acceptance". Its so bad that "tolerance" is a pejorative. At best, someone who is "tolerant" supports crime, terrorism and giving up rights to the federal government.