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BBC: UK Votes To Leave The European Union (bbc.com)
An anonymous reader quotes a report from the BBC: The UK has voted by 52% to 48% to leave the European Union after 43 years in a historic referendum, a BBC forecast suggests. London and Scotland voted strongly to stay in the EU but the remain vote has been undermined by poor results in the north of England. Voters in Wales and the English shires have backed Brexit in large numbers. The referendum turnout was 71.8% -- with more than 30 million people voting -- the highest turnout since 1992. London has voted to stay in the EU by around 60% to 40%. However, no other region of England has voted in favor of remaining. Britain would be the first country to leave the EU since its formation -- but a leave vote will not immediately mean Britain ceases to be a member of the 28-nation bloc. That process could take a minimum of two years, with Leave campaigners suggesting during the referendum campaign that it should not be completed until 2020 -- the date of the next scheduled general election. The prime minister will have to decide when to trigger Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty, which would give the UK two years to negotiate its withdrawal. Once Article 50 has been triggered a country can not rejoin without the consent of all member states. British Prime Minister David Cameron is under pressure to resign as a result of the decision. UK Independence Party (UKIP) leader Nigel Farage called on him to quit "immediately." One labor source said, "If we vote to leave, Cameron should seriously consider his position." Several pro-Leave Conservatives including Boris Johnson and Michael Gove have signed a letter to Mr. Cameron urging him to stay no matter the decision. Mr. Cameron did say he would trigger Article 50 as soon as possible after a leave vote.
Update 6/24 09:33 GMT: David Cameron has resigned.
Update 6/24 09:33 GMT: David Cameron has resigned.
The sheer showing the finger value to 'experts' is amazing in this one!
Scotland (which recently voted to stay in Great Britain because they were told they would drop out of the EU if they left the UK) and Northern Ireland voted to stay in. England and Wales voted to get out.
So Small Britain, or the United Kingdom of England and Wales, will leave the EU.
Probably, we will see Northern Ireland join the Irish Republic and Scotland to become independent during the next 2 years.
So the EU is supposed to serve several purposes: common market, free labor movement and mutual support for countries. But it turned out that free labor movement doesn't provide a lot of benefits to Britain and everybody remembers well how Germany raped Greece instead of helping it.
The question of free trade still remains, Britain will have to secure trade deals with lots of countries.
Especially idiot Cameron: he played with fire for so long, surfing the xenophobic and ultra-liberal wave until it exploded right under his nose. May the burns itch forever.
Good riddance.
If I was was a UK resident I would vote for a Brexit too, But I am Australian and selfish as well so I wish they had stayed, going to make markets very unstable for a long time to come.
For the uninformed, the EU is undemocratic: no legislation can be passed without the say-so of unelected bureaucrats (the European Commission) which voters cannot feasibly remove from power (because the system for appointing them is highly indirect and opaque). Much opposition to the EU stems from this. UK democracy isn't perfect (e.g. voting isn't proportional, and the unelected House of Lords can delay legislation) but voters can and do change the government and change policy direction through the ballot box.
perl -e 'fork||print for split//,"hahahaha"'
Here's the naked truth from an Spaniard:
1) UK got privileges no other country got:
- They kept their old monetary unit (GBP)
- They kept the *right to refuse entry* (not signed SENGEN)
- They kept the old measuring unit system (instead of International System)
- They kept colonies in other countries of the EU (Gibraltar) even though it's clearly illegal and have a specific article forbidding it.
Etc.
2) The Universal Declaration of Human Right, which all countries are obliged to comply with as is *written* in the European Treaties and Constitution, says clearly:
Art. 1. All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
3) As the UK did not comply with the "rights" part of the UDHR, forced by the EU Constitution and International Treaties, and shitted in the treaties that form the core and meaning of the EU (SENGEN, no colonies, etc.) I can say anything but...
GO F**K YOURSELVES
PS: It's a pity that Ireland got kicked too due to their stupidity.
So, it turns out that borders matter after all! And that First World citizens don't like being flooding with Third Worlders who don't necessarily want to assimilate, and in fact seem to want to make their new country more like the hellholes they escaped from. And that opinions that are criticized do better in the privacy of the voting booth than in polls. (See: "shy Tory effect" or "Bradley effect.")
Now we have Trump, who at least talks a good game about loving his country, vs. Hillary, who wants to "fix" and "improve" it by doing things like importing more Muslim refugees and restricting gun rights. Many people are going to be shocked when Trump wins.
(To those of you wanting to verbally abuse and downvote me: this is a prediction, not an endorsement.)
Q: What does the "B." in Benoit B. Mandelbrot stand for? A: Benoit B. Mandelbrot
RIP our stupid country and the idiots who live in it. Looking forward to people suddenly realising that the EU are going to actually negotiate our access to the single market rather than completely surrendering to us. Would be pretty ironic if we ended up getting forced into Schengen.
EU was an American project, it never made sense from point of view of creating free trade (if that was ever the goal, which I do not think is the reality). If you want free trade as a nation all you have to do is stop creating barriers to trade at the government level, people will trade, that is never the problem. Creating a larger, transnational corrupted government to reduce the trade barriers associated with a smaller, national corrupted government (all governments are corrupt by definition, there is no such thing as a government that is not corrupt, that is patently, historically, factually impossible to achieve, which is why governments shouldn't exist AFAIC and if they exist, they should be as tiny and irrelevant on large scale as possible, maybe government at the street level, not even municipal, maybe none at all).
Anyway, good for UK. I am sure that it will still trade with the rest of the EU countries as do countries that never participated in the EU project in the first place. China is not in the EU, neither is the USA or Australia, etc., yet they trade with the EU. UK will trade with the EU of-course and it will do so on terms that will not put its sovereignty in a questionable position.
My ultimate position is that there should be no governments, but if they exist, they should be as small as possible (hopefully small enough to kick them in the balls singlefootedly, so to speak).
UK will do fine and in the next few months ideas of EU exit will spread among many other countries in that block. Portugal, Italy, Spain, France, Sweden will be looking at it very closely now.
EU was a flawed idea from every perspective from the very beginning, what is Greece doing in the same 'economic zone' with the same common currency with Germany? Latvia? Lithuania? Romania? Cyprus? That's not only a different league, that's not even the same game. When Germany joined this idiocy, the Germans immediately lost over half of the value of the Mark. Germany needs to quit this project, but of-course it will double down instead, but I think now that UK left, Merkel will not be re-elected and hopefully for the Germans they will get somebody who will do something that is in the best interests of the Germans.
Get rid of the Euro and reduce trade barriers with other countries but do not let others just step all over yourself.
You can't handle the truth.
First order of business should be to sign all the free-trade deals that the EU was preventing. Canada, Australia, China, etc.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
I mean, John Oliver eviscerated the Leavers on his show! How could this happen? How could racist old white men hijack the vote? It is 2016!
Ummm. Isn't this want everyone wants? A weak currency? Everyone says China is getting stupid rich and kicking everyone's ass because their currency is weak. It isn't fair! Weak currency == unstoppable.
So now the pound has dropped a lot. All of England's exports just got cheaper. We need US businesses to call them an unfair currency manipulator and push for high tariffs. That will fix things! (this is sarcasm. Something no one seems to get here.)
Me thinks those Savile row suits just became a lot better looking.
Seriously, A weak pound will help the UK. It is a plus when selling your goods. More people will visit.
but more about who is out,- who is not in, or not in yet, or almost in, or practically in except currency, etc.
There is the UN United Nations Organization. It is a comprehensive universal framework. However it seems that for some countries it is beneath dignity to work in an universal organization together with all others, and that is why this drive create small elitist unions, to show off that they better than others. But it will not work in a globalized world.
I voted "remain" in the end, but it was a close run thing. I'm philosophical about the results; we won't know the real implications for some time. But be under no illusions, this was not just about the EU. Indeed, the EU never really dominated the campaign. It was a rebellion against a long standing political consensus and, in particular, the legacy of Blairism. In essence, Blairism was the marriage of Thatcherite economics to social mores which had previously been the concern of the far left; basically free markets plus multiculturalism. The intention was that over time, the population would buy into that. In London and Scotland, it more or less happened. But in much of the U.K., the population went the other way. An unbalanced economy dependent on financial services squeezed their finances and living standards, while mass immigration forced down wages and created visible, angry, unassimilated immigrant communities in their midst. Moreover, the usual channels of democratic restoration were blocked. Blair's biggest achievement was to foster a media environment which labelled any questioning of the social consensus as racist and a legal system which in some cases made it an arrestable offence. Meanwhile, too many of our institutions changed their ethos from public service to "thought leadership"; trying to reform the population rather than meeting its needs. The vote, I think, needs to be seen as a rebellion against that. I wish the result had been different, but I accept that it wasn't. I live and work in London and my whole circle voted to remain. My parents live in the suburbs of a northern city and they and their circle voted to leave. I had been warning colleagues for weeks that I thought a Leave win was likely; I thought the polling was both running into "social acceptability bias" and underestimating the likelihood that the lower income groups would vote. This, incidentally, is why I would bet on Trump winning in November, scary though that is. And things feel scary in the UK this morning. But a proper discussion of why the vote went the way it did and an acceptance that we need to at least accept and tolerate our divisions rather than widening them would be good first steps.
I live in Germany, but am not a German citizen. I think the UK was interested in being in a free trade block of European nations with similar economies and cultural ideals. I think the political establishment on the continent believes that a "United States of Europe" is the only acceptable natural and desired end-state for Europe. Eventually these different expectations had to be addressed.
Scottish fishermen have been bitterly complaining about fishermen from other EU countries fishing inside the Scottish waters, depleting the fish stock
To the Scottish fishermen, Britain leaving the EU is a good news
Ben Riley-Smith @benrileysmith
HOW AGES VOTED
(YouGov poll)
18-24: 75% Remain
25-49: 56% Remain
50-64: 44% Remain
65+: 39% Remain#EUref
6:24 PM - 23 Jun 2016
If they would have waited some years it would been a remain.
There are no stupid questions, Just a lot of inquisitive idiots. (from a good friend)
Scattered [useless?] thoughts but I need to get it out from my chest:
My deepest fear is that this will be used as an excuse for another eternal "economic crisis". Because you make more money when shit happens....
Regarding the brexit - I supported both sides. Honestly! On one hand I am [very] disappointed by the EU, on the other I think it will go worse for all of us now...but will it go worse because of some real issues or because the financial sharks will happily create a crisis?
At the very bottom I see this as vote against the whole socio-economic system; however since people do not realize that the very foundations of the system need re-evaluation they shoot down indiscriminately everything they can every time they are asked (EU constitution, anyone?)
The statements ATM from diplomats and politicians [from EU, not Brits] are INSANE! Many have said [e.g. the French diplomatic mission in my country] that this was all Putin's fault (I am not kidding!!)...I mean there is nothing more idiotic and revealing than to keep excusing your greed and incompetence with the big scary bear. The bear is not that big neither it is very scary and in fact the EU has been playing the role of a buffer in the new war between US and Russia. European leaders claim that Europe is making its own destiny yet the surveillance/police states are in full swing, secret trade negotiations, 25% unemployment among young people [what to do? - bail the banks!!], robots taking our jobs [what to do? - RAISE the pension age, increase taxes!!] and the propaganda in the media is insufferable..
Perhaps by bad luck or bad luck reinforced by wrong decisions I suffered by the system in western Europe and I still suffer [got bankrupted by the medi-care system; family screwed by job market]. So in my eyes I cannot stand the system that spills money left, right and center, going to wars nobody wants [except the money makers and their bitches the politicians], endlessly destabilizing the economy while at the same time the regular honest tax payer and decent member of society gets screwed.....again and again....and even VILIFIED [terrible white slavers sexist racist chauvinist pig]....no help from anywhere because I do not belong to any minority [LGTB or whatever] or majority [religion] group....so disappointing!
Is this a binding referendum?
In other words; is the government forced to do as voted or do they have wiggle room to weasel out of it?
Slashdot social media options: AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, Jabber and Mobile Text. Why no MySpace?
See eu later!
I wanted to check on the progress of the Brexit vote, so I went to the CNN website, but it only said in large black letters "LEAVE".
Jeez, they didn't have to be so mean about it.
Maybe you are only interested in knowing how Ballmer scratches his ass, but I certainly think this is relevant news to us.
hilarious
The US has its problems, yes. But it's hardly dead, and that's a pretty dumb thing to say. The US is still the world's largest economy. The US exerts a tremendous amount of political influence. The US has a massive military with a hell of a lot of firepower. That hardly sounds dead to me. In so many ways, the US is actually a rock of stability compared to Europe. Since the Civil War, we haven't had any states seriously try to leave the US. Our Presidency has been handed over peacefully each time to the winner of the election. We haven't fought wars over here in North America for a long time. Despite our faults, the US has been extremely stable and will probably continue to be for a long time. The rest of the world knows it, too. That's why, for example, the dominant reserve currency throughout the world is the US Dollar. If we were truly that bad, the world wouldn't trust the US Dollar. I know that it's practically a sport around here to bash the US, but we've been quite a bit more stable than Europe.
The European Union is not a state, but it has its shortcomings, though. For example, most EU citizens don't really know who prepares the laws, how these people are chosen or elected (often not even elected), how do EU laws affect national drafting of laws and so forth. Even the good things' origin, such as the benefits of a single market, are not known, and people don't realize that it's the EU that allows them to order pretty much anything from another EU country over the Internet without any more hassle than what they would have if they ordered it locally.
I reckon Scotland will be leaving the UK soon and might join the EU as a sovereign state later on. The fate of Northern Ireland is a big question mark, but they're obviously not happy with the UK leaving and this might start a similar political movement there too.
-SR
You do not understand idioms
As far as I see, not even the EU sceptic UK politicians really wanted this. They just wanted to beat Cameron and probably blackmail the EU. I believe this has backfired, and the UK will suffer. (EU too, but to a much less degree). I'm sure Farage and the rest of the crooks wanted that Brexit fails, but only barely. Now, lets see how UK will fare without the cheap EU workers, increased trade tax, visa to the EU and all the 'good things' non-EU countries have to cope with.
Patents Drive Free Software as Hurricanes Drive Construction Industry
From the perspective of a very far on looker (a Canadian living in China), the result of the referendum is very unfortunate. Since WWII, generations and generations of people, with long term vision for a stable and peaceful Europe, had put their weight to form the Union. It's certainly not perfect, but it's better, by a long measure, than the situation in the first half of the 20th century. I am quite amazed that more older generation stand by the Leave camp. I would have thought that they should be the ones who know better. With one referendum, which is more fueled by temporary discontent than calm reasoning, they want to dismantle what took years and years to gradually build up. The chain reactions in the coming years won't be pretty, and I hope I would be wrong.
I was born in Cambodia, been through the Khmer Rouge regime, lost 80% of our family, spent 8 years in a refugee camp in Vietnam, and was lucky enough to be accepted in Canada when I was 18. In the 1990s, I was very happy to see the Berlin wall fall, and that Europeans countries were merging into one block with their interests tightly interconnected, and I could only dream of a same scenario for Asia, a scenario that would take many many more years to even be a prospective, if at all.
The bottom of your society is literally an endless abyss, whereas the EU has a well-functioning security net, and where it's easy to have a high quality of life even with a simple job. But you, you live in a supposed first-world country with third-world living standards in many parts, where people have to take two jobs just to reach the point where they can start counting pennies to make ends meet... and you call the EU a failed state? You Americans are an endless source of unintentional comedy.
he probably would've voted leave.
Wanna buy a shirt?
https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
Scotland is hardly a secessionist group like the Basques. It's part of the UK but a country in its own right, and a few years ago they had a referendum on whether to stay or leave the UK. They choose to stay, but it looks like that may change.
If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
The Spanish government said during the 2014 referendum they would have no problems with Scotland leaving the UK and then gaining independent passage in to the EU - as the referendum had the blessing of the UK government.
That didn't stop that myth being spread around though.
http://www.independent.co.uk/n...
Remain has taken 96 per cent of the vote in the EU referendum in Gibraltar, the first area to declare.
More than 19,300 people there voted for Remain compared to just over 800 for Leave.
There are no stupid questions, Just a lot of inquisitive idiots. (from a good friend)
There are a number of obvious contributing factors to Brexit. Nationalism and selfishness are two of the most obvious.
So let's consider the enlightened discussion here on slashdot, this bastion of intellectual turmoil and whatever.
There have been several hundred comments so far. No mention of "nationalism" yet appears. One marginally related but tangential mention of "selfish" and no mentions of "selfishness". Maybe there are some hidden references, but then their invisibility reflects the failure of the moderation system. However, I think Brexit reflects a larger failure of journalism in general and a more specific failure of slashdot in particular.
People who were capable of thinking about the future would not vote in favor of fracturing Europe. They would have been able to put the broader long-term interests of their own grandchildren ahead of their various minor terrors of foreigners stealing their jobs, especially considering that if 52% hated the EU I'd bet that a much higher percentage hate their own jobs and ought to be glad if some immigrants would steal them.
Same rise of ignorant short-sighted stupidity has made it possible for the Donald of Trump to become a serious contender for the presidency, squatting on his bizarre high chair that he imagines as a throne. Don't look too closely at the legs: One leg for the government haters, one for the Hillary haters, a leg of bigots, and a last leg of overt racists. Yeah, a few Trumpists are smart enough to try to talk nice, but scratch a Trump supporter and you find a hater.
My problem with all of this is that I'm a believer in enlightened self-interest (per Heinlein, even). If people see sufficiently large pictures, then they will see how their private and national selfishness has to be limited for the long-term survival of the human species.
Why don't they see the large pictures? I think it's mostly because the existing economic models, including slashdot's pitiful economic models, drive them to short-term BS journalism and reality TV. Brexit and Trumpism are just natural outcomes. Gawd save us all, but he won't. (Even if he existed, it would be a breach of his divinely insane plan.)
Freedom = (Meaningful - Coerced) Choice != (Speech | Beer^2), and sad sock puppets' bad mods avail them naught.
When you get an highly politicized media forcing a side and pushing and shaming people for not taking it, you may end alienating a large portion of the population and making em disobey you, even when you're pushing for the right decision.
And i bet at least in part, people just voted to leave because the creepy manipulative forceful thing they can't truly trust told em to vote to stay.
If they would have waited some years it would been a remain.
You assume people don't change their mind. Young people have different needs and experiences. You can't just make such an assumption based on no information but age, you will have to do the boring and very work of actually looking of looking at the details - the "Why?".
If they do it before the UK leaves, then maybe we can just have England leave both the EU and the UK at the same time. Looking at the voting map, all of the places with weak economies (including, amusingly, all of the ones that are heavily dependent on EU farm subsidies) want to leave. Maybe we should just kick them out of the UK and let them spend a few years learning what being alone in a global economy is really like.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
Mrs. Merkel and Mr. Juncker (and many others, like Mr. Schulz) worked long and hard to achieve just this outcome.
Not sure about that. Merkel and Juncker are undoubtedly pro-EU. That "divorce" could trigger a high rise of anti-EU advocates within Europe, that may have an impact on next elections (eg France in early 2017).
Slashdot, fix the reply notifications... You won't get away with it...
Because let us be clear, the biggest problem for the common man in the UK was not the EU but their own government having caused a for a European nation unusual rift between the haves and have nots.
"The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
The UK will now need to show the world that it can cope without the EU. To achieve this it will need to make sure its financial centre (London), stays afloat.
So what will it do? Well, the obvious solution is make London as attractive as possible, to make sure all the big businesses stay in the UK. And if that means sucking the life out of the rest of the country to meet this goal, then so be it.
I'm only joking of course. London's been doing this for years already.
Summation 2
No doubt this referendum will have an impact on people decisions. France for instance has its presidential elections next year, and all this passion for EU-xit will definitely have its say during the coming political campaigns.
Slashdot, fix the reply notifications... You won't get away with it...
It's official - we live in a post-factual democracy.
Sympathies to all my fellow EU citizens, and especially to my ex-EU UK unfortunates.
Alex Salmond has already called for a second Scottish independence referendum and I don't see how that can be refuse, the same for NI. I'm pro-union and pro-eu and certainly see Scotland leaving the UK now.
Now that UK voted to stop inmigration. And before they begin to expel migrants they should begin accepting the migrants they sent to North America and Australia. Specially the North Americans ones that plan to make a wall to stop the Native Americans of the South (aka Mexicans).
Don't you mean the descendants of English migrants who want to stop the descendants of Spanish migrants?
Or are you under the impression that the Spanish Conquistadors let the native populations survive in meaningful numbers?
If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
Right along the wishes of general De Gaulle who rests a lot better now :)
Funny but rather unrealistic.
"The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
Fuck EU
Mrs. Merkel and Mr. Juncker (and many others, like Mr. Schulz) worked long and hard to achieve just this outcome. Should not surprise anyone.
You just mentioned three people who were opposed to a Brexit. You should blame people like Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage, as well as all the idiots who believed their lies.
The existence of a second chamber in legislatures around the world is odd objectively - and is entirely a result of our House of Lords. A few states have got rid of the second chamber, or never had it - Israel, New Zealand and Nebraska. A lot of other countries struggle to know what to do with it. In that context the UK House of Lords works very well; it provides people who can seriously scrutinise legislation that MPs are too busy to look at properly. It provides a forum where ministers can get a good kicking from people who are actually experts in their topic, as opposed to being a forum for minimally knowledgeable political hacks to play to their party managers. If it didn't exist, you wouldn't invent it, but it works well as a useful check on a governing system that otherwise tends to the dictatorial.
The picture emerging this morning on social media from friends that had so far kept quiet is that this a kick in the balls for the establishment.
With France voting for a dumbfuck like Hollande, I hardly think anything can make them do worse in their next elections.
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
Not necessarily. The scottish plan is simply not to leave the EU when the rest of the UK does. That means they need to come out of the UK as the UK leaves.
This might not be a bad idea, as Northern Ireland also voted to stay in the EU. It might not be the worst idea in the world to arrange things so England and Wales are effectively going their own way as a separate state leaving Scotland/Northern Ireland as the UK as far as the EU are concerned. That way, they would never have "left" the EU and won't have to reapply.
Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
Karma: Chameleon
Really, troll? Massive net contributors. Only positive side is we actually get a lot more 'cash', especially when there's pressure to stop paying farmers 1/3-1/2 the budget (apparently market forces don't count in agriculture).
Otherwise, today is a huge loss socially, culturally and, as warned hundreds of times by the Remain side, economically.
Then we just have the fun as Cambridge, Oxford, Manchester, London, Liverpool, Bristol, Exeter, Reading, Leeds, York, Newcastle, and Cardiff all apply to join the United Kingdom of Scotland and Ireland.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
Germany also benefits massively from cheap European workers. And also benefitted massively from loans it made to Southern Europe to buy back its own products. Somehow the media have managed to make it look like the uk has an open door policy but hate all immigrants. Far from the truth on both counts. However the large companies and beuracracies have been in cahoots setting up a large trading block to benefit themselves. Even people in Poland Are coming to realise that they no longer own their own infrastructure any more since it has been privatised and bought out by international companies, but since it is called investment, no one notices. They benefit from international jobs but at what cost? I'm glad we are out since the Nhs was under threat from European threats including Ttipp however it now means we have to make sure the right wing in the uk don't stuff it up on their own. We have less people to blame. Being in control means our level of responsibility has increased.
The UK voters have just propelled their country back onto the trajectory on which they were with Thatcherism: economic disaster, unemployment, civil unrest, and the Empire won't come back. A reckless decision of self-centered nationalistic isolationists...and the beginning of the end of the EU. The many right-wing nationalistic anti-Europeans in Hungary and Poland will attempt the same move. This puts an end to the decades of peace and prosperity since WW II that are undoubtedly caused mainly by the European Union.
Which rules did the uk sign up to that they did not follow through?
U.K. Law is extremely literal to the law and European regs are followed here more strictly than over the rest of Europe.
U.K. Has had doubts over the European project from the day it signed up. 43 years later they are given another choice and they choose to leave.
It is Europe who have massively benefited from uk membership. A member state leaving was always a risk. The eu bueracracy was too arrogant and is now paying the price.
It looks like people are starting to notice that these huge trade agreements might be good for a country's economy, but that a good economy doesn't necessarily benefit average citizens.
The EU, specifically, has run into trouble since it incorporated former Soviet states and short-listed Turkey for membership. This may have been wise politically, but it basically opened the floodgates for Third World immigration into countries that were already suffering from globalization. Once all the pretty rhetoric is scrubbed away, "globalization" simply means that decent jobs vanish along with the tariffs that protected First World workers from having to compete directly with Third World slave labour. And suddenly, quite a lot of those Third World labourers have been turning up right next door, putting even more downward pressure on wages.
Initial joy over cheap manufactured goods has given way to anger and disgust as well-paid jobs in the hollowed-out manufacturing sector disappeared into countries where protection for workers and the environment exist only on paper. Meanwhile, tax burdens on the First World's dying middle class have skyrocketed because corporations selling into First World markets have found tax shelters offshore.
And, of course, it's all been legal, because the political process in every large-scale democracy has been corrupted to the point where "the 1%" owns all the major parties outright, and those parties have obediently enacted laws to facilitate its depredations.
I doubt anything like this expression of democracy, no matter whether or not it is short-sighted and wrong, will be allowed to happen again.
I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
Well, at least Vladimir Putin and all the new far-right groups in Europe (that are partly funded by Russia) are happy about the outcome.
I wonder about that. Brexit has put downward pressure on oil prices. Russia would need to sell its oil to fund those "far-right groups" and its other ambitions in Europe.
If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
Should a prime minister resign for such a percentage? So should do its antagonist, if math matters.
The UK just voted to separate from it. Literally dead? Not yet... but the dominoes were already clicking into each other before the UK left. Who wants to join the EU? Turkey? Most promising nations... that would add something to the EU have let their petitions to join lapse... aka... they basically dropped their admission appeal in a manner that saved face for the EU.
Eastern Europe wants out because the immigration thing is not what they signed up for... and southern europe only signed up for the free money. That's gone... and with that their toleration for EU interference in their markets, economies, and politics will very quickly irk them. The French are already worrying their own version of a referendum.
No one has a crystal ball into the future. No one knows what tomorrow will bring. But the EU could have been saved if the people running it had listened or been at all responsive to what was required to keep the EU together. They literally LAUGHED at the people that made petitions of it.
Wrong answer. Time to die.
I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
The value drop in oil, stocks and currencies is a short term panic reaction the markets are known for. Global demand for oil will not change because Britain exits the EU. In a short time (mostly) everything will recover to pre-crash values, with the big exception of the stocks of the British banking sector, who will be hit the hardest.
Or are you under the impression that the Spanish Conquistadors let the native populations survive in meaningful numbers?
Perhaps a bit off-topic, but in many of the latinamerican countries the native populations were not decimated by the Spanish, but rather enslaved. That's why from Mexico to Peru the population is still mostly indigenous.
Merge them and the Scots as Transkintyria. Or if you prefer, Paddyjockoland.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
For the benefit of UK readers of this site (and, incidentally the rest of Europe, imo), I am going to copy a post of mine that I've made elsewhere.
There is a method by which members of the public can petition parliament, with that petition forming the basis for a commons debate. The parliament website says that it will "take the existing threshold of 100,000 signatures for a petition to be considered for debate in the House as a starting-point. But it also noted that there may be occasions when a debate is not appropriate—such as when a debate has already taken place in the House on the same subject"
The petition I have in mind is here:
Petition for a second EU Referendum
It doesn't have quite the rationale I'd have used - personally I'd have gone with something like "Whereas the leave campaign grossly misrepresented their position and flat out lied to the voting public we the undersigned..." but there's no point filing multiple petitions to the same end, as that could potentially split the vote, resulting in a much weaker case for a second referendum.
Of course, parliament has already debated the issue, so the chances of getting a second referendum are slim indeed. But slim is not nil! If enough signatures are gathered, if there is an overwhelming show of support, there is always a chance. What counts as overwhelming? Well, considering about seventeen and a half million people voted to leave the EU, I'd say about twenty million signatures would be required to guarantee a second chance. How can we get that many signatures? One at a time!
Bearing in mind that in the immediate aftermath following the results about £150 billion was wiped off our national worth, one of the leaders of the leave campaign admitted that the campaign (not him, of course, never him) lied about at least one of its major promises, and, listening to Nicola Sturgeon we are facing the breakup of Great Britain itself, we simply cannot sit back and do nothing.
So, if you voted to remain in the EU, I'm sure you need little persuading. Please sign the petition.
If you did not vote, and, like me, are aghast at what has happened, and what will almost inevitably happen, please sign the petition.
If you voted to leave the EU, in all good conscience, and are now realising that you were misled by the leave campaign, and are, similarly, shocked by the reactions and revelations that have followed, please, do the right thing, and sign the petition.
Finally, after you have signed the petition, hang on to some hope, there is still a faint glimmer of it, and share this post, share the shares, or, in any other way you can, make as many people as you can aware of the petition, and encourage them to sign it.
Please, before it's too late!
And don't forget that the EU will have to give them a pretty louse "exit package", or risk making exiting the EU "appealing" to others. So, the "negotiations" won't go smoothly, and the UK will probably end up with worse deals than other non-EU countries - even if the EU itself might be losing on them.
Another interesting thing is to note that young people overwhelmingly voted "remain" (it was about 75-25 in the 18-24 category), when the most "leave" votes were in the 65+ category (60-40). So the UK will leave due to the votes of people who won't be part of the non-EU future (for long at least)...
Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. Polar Scope Align for iOS
It's exactly the same issue as in the US: given a steady seepage of power to an unaccountable central government run by politicians and academics obsessed with issues the general public doesn't care about, this sentiment has been building up for years. Then add an uncontrolled wave of insurgents (not 'immigrants' in any traditional legal sense whatever) and you have a revolt.
It's disgusting how a referendum of such significance- far more important than a general election- has been centered around and reported in terms of the internal, up-its-own-arse politicking of the Conservative (Tory) party. Disgusting, but not surprising.
As you say, the whole thing started out as a political sop, designed purely to placate its own right-wing "Eurosceptic" members.
I voted "Yes" in the Scottish independence referendum in 2014 for a number of reasons. A major one was that I knew the EU referendum was on the horizon and I wasn't prepared to risk Scotland being dragged out of the EU by Tories playing political football with the country's future simply to placate their own voter base in the south east of England.
Back then, I still thought it was far more likely than not that the UK would remain within the EU; I just wasn't prepared to risk it.
I look forward to the response of every politician that scaremongered about whether an independent Scotland's position would have the right to remain within the EU during the 2014 referendum. The same people who convinced Scotland to remain a part of the UK (#) and to accept the results of being in bed with an elephant that's barely aware of its existence most of the time. Whether that outcome was the Tory government majority across the UK as a whole in the 2015 general election rendering the SNP's overwhelming majority of MPs in Scotland irrelevant (the Tories got *one* isolated seat here). Or whether that was Scotland being dragged out of the EU against its will by a party and political process that has long been centered around the south-east of England.
I'm not suggesting that all these people- especially not the Labour supporters- wanted a Tory government or the UK out of the EU (Scotland against its will). I'm saying that they placed their own UK-centric interests first, knowing the risk to Scotland. Especially the Labour supporters.
I wonder how many of those people will have the nerve to show their faces now that the scaremongering outcome they claimed would happen if Scotland voted "Yes" to independence has come true thanks to their "No" side winning and the Tory-centric English vote dragging it out anyway.
(#) In particular, I'm thinking of the utterly worthless Labour party (until recently dominant in Scotland) that only got back into power in the 90s- admittedly very successfully- by selling out everything they stood for in order to appeal to Middle England, turning themselves into little more than red Tories. The same Labour party that may now have elected the stereotypically left-wing Jeremy Corbyn as leader (##) but don't stand a cat's chance in hell of getting elected by that same Middle England electorate and can be dismissed as irrelevant.
(##) Someone who at least appeared principled at first- even if I didn't agree with much of what he stood for- but was so utterly lukewarm, half-baked and borderline invisible in his support for "Remain" that one suspects this may have been intentional. (Corbyn was well-known for his Euroscepticism, but claimed to have switched to remain with some reservations. Please excuse my scepticism.)
"Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
End Soviet Europe instead.
Then do the TTIP thing or whatever.
France voted *against* Sarkozy, there is a difference.
Slashdot, fix the reply notifications... You won't get away with it...
The same reason Trump will get elected no doubt.
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
The UK, well England, Scotland, Whales, and N Ireland, its all going to be all right. These states have been at war, at peace, for centuries. The UK was only in the EU since the '70s. The events of history will unfold as they will, the people of the UK will push through and succeed. They always have, there is no reason to believe that won't now.
There is more thorough analysis available, which basicly states, that the groups Remain and Leave have very distinct properties.
Remainers are younger than 45, live in large towns and have an university degree or are students at an university.
Leavers are older than 45, live in rural and small town regions, mainly in the East and North of England and in Central Wales, and have no university degree.
I found these comments really interesting because you're basically saying that the UK has now become just like the USA. We have the same issues here. People in small towns with no higher education have completely different values and desires from the educated people who live in cities. I can't speak to UK politics, but some of this in the US is the fault of the Republican Party, who in the past decade started embracing anti-intellectuals as a valued voting bloc. In fact, I'd point out that Sarah Palin has made her career out of promoting anti-intellectualism as the solution to all of America's problems. Sorry to hear you're now one of us, UK people.
The US is not the world's largest economy. The EU is.
And we see how well it's going too, with countries voting to leave it.
Now, lets see how UK will fare without the cheap EU workers,
The GB is free to invite as many cheap workers as they want or need, the only difference is that whey will no longer be *forced* to do so.
increased trade tax,
The trade taxes are governed by the European Economic Area, not the European Union. Whether GB stays out of EU but in EEA (like Norway and Switzerland for instance) remains to be seen.
visa to the EU and all the 'good things' non-EU countries have to cope with.
Visas to the "EU" are in fact governed by the Schengen Treaty which has nothing at all to do with the EU, and the standing of GB with respect to the Schengen Zone has not changed one iota because of the referendum.
You know, I wish that GB chose to stay, as my country is going to suffer for its leaving (as now there will be no counterweight at all to the Germany-France tandem, who will proceed to rape the rest of EU in name of their national interests until it completely falls apart). However, boy, I do have the grim satisfaction of someone having the courage to stand up and give the middle finger to crooks and liars like you and the eurocrats, who spew such blatant false propaganda. Attributing every good thing, from hens laying eggs to the sun rising, to the gracious benevolence of the EU.
Uhh... hello? Bankers?
Requiem for the American Dream
Comment removed based on user account deletion
European Union was formally established in November 1993, so U.K. must have invented time travel to leave it after 43 years in 2016.
45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
But the EU is hardly the same kind of union that the USA are. Mostly in the mind of its subjects.
The USA consider themselves a nation. When 9/11 struck, Californians felt as attacked as anyone in New York did. Do you think a Portuguese would give a shit if someone blew half of Tallinn apart? THAT is the big difference.
The EU is an economy union, and only that. With nation states inside trying to rip as much out of the cake that this union is for their own national benefit as possible. With the Brits having been one of the worst offenders of this behavior.
And as long as this doesn't change I will not accept that spiel that "the EU is the biggest economy". Bullshit. The EU as a unified economy doesn't exist. It is a union for corporations trying to maximize their profits, there is not anything tangible in it for the people in the union or their economies beyond the interests of the corporations.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
As far as I see, not even the EU sceptic UK politicians really wanted this.
Of course in the great tradition of EU "democracy" whether the voters actually want this is irrelevant, right? Gotta consider those poor politicians and eurocrats, and their touchy feelings, and to hell with voters, they are just unwashed masses to be manipulated, not actually listened to. Oh, I know, now you are going to say that when they voted "leave" they actually wanted to vote "stay", but they ticked the wrong box cus... reasons.
Putin, maybe. The right wing parties in the EU, less so.
Because one thing is certain, the EU will not tolerate easily the exit of a vassal. They will do their worst to punish the Brits for this act of high treason, and it should be pretty tough for the right wing parties in Europe to picture the now most likely dropping economy on the island up there as something they should aspire to.
Especially the right wing populist governments of Poland or Hungary that have been throwing dirt (while at the same time accepting the influx of EU money with open arms) will have a hard time convincing anyone in their countries that it's a good idea to go as well.
Even though if the rest of Europe could vote them out, they'd be gone before they have packed their junk.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
I think you mean 23 years.
Coder's Stone: The programming language quick ref for iPad
The stability of multinational corporations, 'free trade' agreements, and international banksters is a stability we can all do without.
What you very wrongly call 'racism' is simply people reacting to economic and quality of life reality. There is a group of people not related to their society who think it's their right to move to someone else's soverign country, take their resources, not adapt to their culture, and of course attack local institutions and traditions that don't suit them. And they want to do this in sufficient numbers as to destabilize the country they're forcing themselves into.
What sane person would put up with that?
Ah, yes, the intellectual royalty has come to tell the peasants how wrong they are. Democracy must suck.
Meanwhile, UK trade with the EU will continue full force. UK trade with Asia and the US will be unaffected, and so on.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
Remain wasn't undermined by poor results in the north of England. The vast majority of England, with the notable exceptions of London, Oxfordshire (Oxford University) and a few others, voted to leave.
This has been an interesting vote, to say the least. Essentially, as a friend put it, England has finally voted for unity in Ireland and Scottish independence.
Build a wall, and make the Romans pay for it.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
He was probably trolling, but in some sense he is right.
For the last couple of years, maybe even last decade, there have been increasing signs that the people are unhappy with the direction their government and the EU in general is taking.
Instead of addressing these concerns they have pushed ahead, assuming that everyone would understand that the leaders know best. And this has increased the dissatisfaction of large portions of the population.
Maybe they really do believe its only a small fringe group, maybe they are too insulation from opposing opinion.
Or maybe they got complacent and assumed no one would fight back.
They (the pro-EU people) seem to have their pet projects and everyone who opposes them is ignored as racist or lunatic fringe.
Even if you believe that over half your population is racist, you still have to face the reality that you can't simply ignore them.
It's disgusting how a referendum of such significance- far more important than a general election- has been centered around and reported in terms of the internal, up-its-own-arse politicking of the Conservative (Tory) party. Disgusting, but not surprising. As you say, the whole thing started out as a political sop, designed purely to placate its own right-wing "Eurosceptic" members. I voted "Yes" in the Scottish independence referendum in 2014 for a number of reasons. A major one was that I knew the EU referendum was on the horizon and I wasn't prepared to risk Scotland being dragged out of the EU by Tories playing political football with the country's future simply to placate their own voter base in the south east of England. Back then, I still thought it was far more likely than not that the UK would remain within the EU; I just wasn't prepared to risk it.
Push for another referendum on independence. From what I understand (as an American) there are already some rumblings about holding another one and that, given the large numbers of Scots that voted Remain it might have a good chance at passing. Who knows, the EU might expedite Scotland's admission as a "screw you" to the UK, and Scotland would certainly be better off independent and in the EU than part of the UK and not in the EU. Just better hope the EU stays together, which I imagine it will because I don't think the right wing in France has enough clout currently to sustain their own push for withdrawal. BUt if the EU loses the UK and France, then it is done.
To use a Titanic metaphor(hey, we are talking abut England here so it's appropriate), as an American watching the changing tides both here and in the UK, I envy Scotland's opportunity to get a seat on a lifeboat while I'm standing on the deck freezing and listening to violin music, with nothing to look forward to except a long, cold swim in 30 degree water.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
And they have always been at war with Eastasia Perhaps now they will be at war with Eurasia as they always have been.
Meanwhile, UK trade with the EU will continue full force.
Until we leave. Then what? The Denmark model, where we'd pay the same amount as we do now, only without any representation in the EU Parliament? Sounds like a great plan!
UK trade with Asia and the US will be unaffected, and so on
China has been negotiating trade deals with us as a way into the EU. If we're no longer part of that, we're a far less attractive trade partner. The USA? Maybe, though Obama did say before the referendum that it was unlikely. How well do you think a successor to TTIP will go when it's just the UK and USA negotiating?
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
"The elites are not the problem, the population at the moment is the problem"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
love is just extroverted narcissism
... the UK will suffer.
I've heard that a lot, but how does it make sense? Was being part of the EU a great thing for the UK? If it was, why didn't they vote to stay?If it wasn't, how can you say the UK will suffer a great hardship from leaving?
The only ways the UK suffers a great hardship on one hand without a great benefit on the other is (1) if the UK is inherently very fragile and the EU was keeping it from disaster, or (2) the EU embarks on a vengeful policy to punish the UK. Is it one of these? Or something else?
Or is "the UK will suffer" a poorly-reasoned (or exaggerated) conclusion?
It makes me wonder, if Scotland had voted to leave the UK, would the UK now still be in the EU?
I heard that a lot of the Brexit votes came from Scotland and Wales.
Coming home to roost...
We play the game with the bravery of being out of range
Our Presidency has been handed over peacefully
Lincoln and Kennedy would disagree with you.
"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
The reactions of pro-leave MPs showed exactly this, they got what they campaigned for and now they don't know what to do now. Nobody's in a hurry to declare Article 50, so we're now stuck in a limbo.
Syed Kamall, a British Tory MEP who campaigned for Brexit defended Cameron's decision. He said: "Cameron is right to leave negotiations to his successor," arguing it does not make much difference when you trigger the procedure.
Apart from the fact we've had one of the most volatile days in UK market history - UK banks (Lloyds, Barclays & RBS are down 20%).
This reactions is echoed by some of my colleagues - one said "I'd really didn't think it happened" - Well done mate, you just knocked 16% of your pension*.
* His number, not mine.
The pound sterling has fallen 10% so far today. That's the same as adding a 10% import tax to everything being imported into the UK. That's going to hurt big time.
"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
... we've just gone eccentric. Damn, I've been reading to much Banks recently.
that the UK land-mass actually tore itself away from the European Mainland!
A point that most people are missing is that the countries that are most nationalist, most economically self centered, and most limit immigration are by far the most successful in the modern world. We need to look no further than China. China makes only one sided trade deals that heavily favor the country. They have tariffs. They force tech transfer of any company that does business there.
They severely limit immigration. Although several sources claim it is growing by leaps and bounds, those measures are only by percentage. In total, China has about a half million immigrants living in a country of 1.5 billion. This is like saying I hate vegetables, and I ate one carrot last week, and now I ate two carrots this week, so I had a 100% increase in vegetable intake. In reality, anyway you look at it, not many vegetables are eaten.
History shows that only when countries have a sense of self and purpose do they do economically well. This is true of China, Korea, Britain in the past, and any other rising nation. The common people of the West fundamentally understand this, even if their leaders do not. The wealth gap is growing. The great pushback is happening in response. The smarter people in many nations simply understand that despite what they are told by the "elites" countries become more successful as a result.
"Liberalism is a very noble idea, currently controlled by some very bad people. Be sure you do not get the two confused.
New, now! Our arrogance is quite endearing.
My take is that being in the EU had economic benefits for the UK, but that there are enough voters in England and Wales who were fearful of immigration and most likely felt that they weren't sharing in those benefits to overcome this. Stories of Romainian immigrants pissing on walls have a visceral effect. Europe as a whole seems to be even worse at integrating immigrants than the US, and I think enough people were alarmed by this that they were willing to shoot themselves in the foot. This was a gamble which backfired tremendously for David Cameron, and I just hope that Scotland manages to leave the UK now and remain part of the EU.
Push for another referendum on independence.
That's essentially what's going to happen.
"Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
Is like staying in the marriage with Angela Merkel.
As a dual US/UK national, having lived in both places, here's my opinion - the social safety nets in Europe are generally too generous, and are an active impediment to immigrants being integrated into their new countries. If immigrants are kept in state housing and allowed to be unemployed for long periods of time, it's not healthy. An immigrant to the US knows that they will have to work, there's no option. This has two benefits - less resentment from the people already there paying taxes, since they are not paying for these people, and forced interaction with others in the society. Yes, there are areas of terrible poverty in the US, but a legal immigrant in the US has a much greater chance of being assimilated into the culture than what I have observed in the UK or Europe.
On the other hand, personal prosperity for the working class isn't capped at a level that most Americans would consider intolerable.
That part just KILLS you.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
The bottom of your society is literally an endless abyss...
They keep voting for the same people and supporting the same institutions that have failed them for decades.
> sadly, as an American, I agree with your sentiments.
I doubt if you have the slightest real clue about it. You're probably just another "white knight" liberal who wants to feel smug "saving" people that are really just insulted by the implication.
Britain has a lot of that too apparently. It seems there are plenty of "ignored people" that are tired of being dismissed as intolerant or racist.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
Texas keeps threatening to leave, personally I'd tell them yes. Then watch as they try to pay for all of the military bases and hardware that would be removed.
In Arizona, Pima County/Tucson would like to secede as the Arizona Legislature has gone absolutely bat-shit crazy. One of the more interesting recent bits of ritual idiocy is the governator signed a bill adding two seats to the Supreme Court to stuff it with conservatives. The twit who proposed the bill said "We wouldn't have put it forth if the governor was a Democrat."
When you sympathize with stupidity, you start thinking like an idiot.
That seems to support a conclusion that the UK will suffer in some ways and benefit in others rather than simply "the UK will suffer".
Well apart from the ability to export stuff easily. Or go somewhere else to work. Nothing that would be useful to a small business or an individual at all.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Texas could do fine with a military the size of Canada's
I would describe it as states rights, the idea that problems are best solved closest to home and national politicians have active contempt for much of the electorate and certain regions of the country.
There are places where the blue state mentality is not needed or is counterproductive. Let them fuck up their own state and leave the rest of us alone.
Despite our own differences we represent roughly the same mixture of people and nationalities. The EU is made up of entirely different nations that are actually different.
Part of "multiculturalism" should be acknowledging this fact rather than trying to deny it.
Governance of the EU seems dependent on ignoring it's inherent challenges rather than dealing with them head on.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
Don't be silly, there's Italy.
(Pffffff!)
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
The only ways the UK suffers a great hardship on one hand without a great benefit on the other is (1) if the UK is inherently very fragile and the EU was keeping it from disaster, or (2) the EU embarks on a vengeful policy to punish the UK. Is it one of these? Or something else?
I'll have to go with both there.
The UK may be the 5th largest economy in the world, but there is a huge cliff after the top 2. The UK has economy roughly the size of California. The European Union exists so European countries can sit at the big boy table with the US and China. Even countries like the US and China can be very fragile at times, so claiming the UK is not putting itself at a huge risk here is childishly naive.
The EU also has a huge incentive to make this breakup as harsh as possible for the UK. The EU will almost certainly make deals which even hurt the EU as long as they hurt the UK more, since if the UK has a successful secession it will mean doom for the EU. The EU can essentially risk its own demise to hurt the UK because if the UK is successful the EU is doomed anyway.
-- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
Peggy Noonan at the Wall Street Journal predicted the exit of the UK from the EU last February. This is an article worth revisiting to understand the psychology behind yesterday's vote, and how the same psychology may make Trump the next U.S. president.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/tr...
I'm curious about the border between southern and northern Ireland. Surely they'll need to build a wall and checkpoints when EIRE (southern Ireland) is part of the EU and Northern Ireland is part of the UK.
You're a temporary arrangement of matter sliding towards oblivion in a cold, uncaring universe
It can be disputed that the EU is bigger than the US, economically. And if you want to talk "groups of countries" rather than actual countries, NAFTA (US, Canada, and Mexico) is bigger than the EU (about $2 trillion larger than the World Bank estimate of the GDP of the US). Or perhaps we should talk APEC (which includes the US and China) which is 2.5 times greater than the EU (with fewer countries, I might add)?
Or is it your position that the EU is effectively one nation, and what used to be countries are now States/Provinces within that new country, so you can look at the EU as one-on-one with the US? Of course, that completely explains why countries like Britain (and France, Italy, Sweden, and the Netherlands potentially looking to join)...
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
Texas keeps threatening to leave, personally I'd tell them yes. Then watch as they try to pay for all of the military bases and hardware that would be removed.
If the bases and hardware was removed, why would they have to pay for it? Is that like the Expat tax of the US but applied in reverse when talking about States?
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
I notice you post AC, as people with weak opinions but strong minds tend to do... you know in your heart your position is on the wrong side of history so you make sure it's never counted against you. Pathetic.
Immigration was not only valid but it caused the vote to go the way it did. Just being immune from having the EU dictate how many more refugees the UK HAD to take made the whole thing worthwhile, even if there is some economic downside (and we still don't even know if there is an economic downside, wait a week and see where the pound ends up at).
This is triage, pure and simple - the citizens of the UK realized they had to stop the bleeding, even if there is some short term pain in doing so. The UK has assured itself a future now, which is something questionable about those that remain the EU.
The funny thing is Trump is going to be president for the same reason the UK voted out. And you will all look at the same kinds of polls and conclude he cannot possibly be president for the same reasons you claimed the UK would never Leave.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Yes, but it means that our exports are more attractive.
You're a temporary arrangement of matter sliding towards oblivion in a cold, uncaring universe
I live and work in London and my whole circle voted to remain.
Or so they say, because they know the social repercussions if they tell the truth...
Which just backs up what you said about the polling.
And also backs up what you are saying about Trump.
That's what people in the U.S. do not get about Trump and polls and victory. There actually are not that many undecided, between Trump and Hillary is as stark a choice as there will ever be. Trump has already won and whatever he says between now and November is essentially irrelevant, though amusing.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Ah, yes, the intellectual royalty has come to tell the peasants how wrong they are. Democracy must suck.
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter. -- A noted British politician
Yes, but it means that our exports are more attractive.
Britain has a large imbalance of imports over exports. London's finance industry will be relocating en masse to Frankfurt. There is nothing pretty about this at all.
When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
The UK has a significant trade deficit, and importantly that's mostly with Germany. The EU won't be eager to stifle that net inflow of money. No reason to expect that to suffer.
This hurts the City, because when you do only arbitrage and add no value, an extra 0.01% cost to trade is a big deal. Billionaires are very sad today.
US companies don't care.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
SJWs exist in the same sense that welfare queens, illegal immigrants, hipsters, and millennials do: mostly in the heads of people complaining about them. Virtue signalling, tribal affiliation, a convenient focus for your hatred of the Other. It's boring, stupid, and dangerous.
Good riddance, and don't let the door hit you on the way out.
Looking at the behavior of the average royal, it's easy to see why democracy works better (though I do admit some respect for Charles past middle age).
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
It's also the same as giving a 10% cut to all purchases of goods and services from the UK...
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
Canada endorsed the not leaving the EU, largely because there has been a free trade agreement in the works for the last 5 years with the EU.
Not sure how leaving the EU makes that deal happen faster for the UK. Possibly though, if they make enough concessions.
They never got round to it when they were blowing the shit out of each other, so I doubt it's a priority right now.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Britain's exit is to the detriment of workers, financiers, and everybody who isn't just living on a pension or already among the political elite and wealthy in Britain. Britain will reenter the EU within a decade, as the demographics shift. The single benefit to the EU in the meantime is that removal of the xenophobic nationalists and their puppet masters (see previous description) is that it will allow more freedom to expand into the Balkans and simplify the ascension of Turkey. Farther in the future it may actually enable a greater European-Mediterranean union stabilizing the Levant and North Africa (which both have more in common historically and economically with Europe than with Sub-Saharan Africa). Only then when Europe is solid and joined with the territory formerly occupied in colonization can it face down Russia (who still retains colonized territory in Central Asia and Siberia, with large parts taken from China in the old Nerchinsk treaties).
You are assuming the right-wing is interested in the Economy. They are not. They are interested in nationalism, isolationism, racism, traditional "christian values" and gun ownership.
Read the news at who is celebrating. Le Pen, Wilders, Donald Trump. All the idiots.
Sure, go ahead. mod me troll
Although English, I always thought the Scottish Independence referendum was held too early. It was clear that there would be an EU referendum at some time, and that after this would be the correct time for any Scottish Independence referendum.
That said, if another Scottish Independence referendum is held, I think the EU will be more receptive this time to accepting an independent Scotland.
You never know what is enough unless you know what is more than enough. - Blake
I am neither a brit, nor young.
"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
In the UK case, as they where the first, the outers could easily dismiss everything as scaremongering, however, as the predictions are pretty much coming true:
- Massive losses in the financial sector
- Scotland will have second referendum
- Northern Ireland may try to have a referendum
- Etc
Further, the EU will not give a good deal in order to make an example of Britain. Other countries will not get any good deals either. The only option the UK has in order to preserve full internal market access is to join the EEA (which includes the free movement provisions).
Thus, the fallout on the UK will be massive in the end as the EU is a lot bigger than the UK.
The point is, the cost for leaving will be massive and it will be clear to anyone who attempts the same thing.
"Civis Europaeus sum!"
Cheaper flights, phasing out of roaming fees, environmental protection,... lasting peace on the continent.
Indeed, nothing useful at all.
"Civis Europaeus sum!"
The funny part is how self assured they are about how easily they'll be able to control the incoming Islamic migrants. Surely a bunch of religious zealots will be as easy to passify as the lazy entitled Europeans they've been dealing with so far. I mean, so many of the Muslims in Europe already are "good Muslims", which is to say barely Muslims at all, certainly not the kinds of Muslims the fervently religious newcomers would recognize.
You are assuming the right-wing is interested in the Economy. They are not.
People to the left such as Bernie have noted that the vast majority of the economies gains have only gone to the top couple percent. Is it wrong for the disenfranchised people to want a change? Why would people who get none of the gains care about perpetuating the current economic model?
As for racism, that word has been so abused and played so many times that for me at least it has no meaning. Race mongers, perhaps yourself included, have cried wolf far too many times. Moreover, since racism is only a charge leveled at white people it doesn't strike me as a real thing, more a tool to be used to get people to go along with other peoples agenda lest they be labelled as "racist". To ignore the label is the best way to diffuse its power.
EU member states are not vassals. Who would be their overlord? EU doesn't exist aside from said member states.
Why? With the Brits gone maybe the rest of us can continue the project of European unification that has been going on since the Roman Empire fell. Maybe our leaders will even put the brakes on expansion and focus on integration - as this whole event showed, we need an European identity to go along with the Union to stabilize it.
Besides, UK is too small to make it on its own in today's world, even if it doesn't splinter (Scotland is already making noises about leaving UK for EU). It either gets sucked into being someone's - most likely US's - satellite or remain in EU's periphery, only now without any formal position or say in the Union's policies. So why would the EU, even in the case it wanted revenge, do anything but watch?
All in all, Britexit means a lot of challenges but also solves some longstanding issues and opens new possibilities in the EU. Better focus on those and let Mr. Hobbes take care of punishing stupidity, least we end up in need of some lessons ourselves.
Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.
The cognitive dissonance is strong with this one:
"The EU is an economy union, and only that."
"The EU as a unified economy doesn't exist."
I get it, you don't like the EU, but when you can't even agree with yourself as to whether or not it is an economic union (you do realize that in English reversing "economy union" to "unified economy" does not change the essential meaning?) the rest of what you saying comes across as "blah blah blah"
Rampant delusions of collectivism ensue.
>> vote has been undermined by poor results in the north of England.
Exactly this kind of shit is why I dont bother with the BBC as a credible news source any more.
Unfortunately for the UK, due to the fall of the GBP, it is no longer the 5th largest economy.
"Civis Europaeus sum!"
We have the Texas State Guard (TXSG) that falls under the direct command of the Governor of Texas. FYI.
Life is not for the lazy.
I have met several imigrants who are highly qualified people and who are not able to get a job. The high jobless rates in some of the groups is to a large extent simply based on racism (some times not intended).
One friend of mine, a guy of Iranian decent was sending out his job applications after graduating. After just getting the hand for 20 graduate level positions (not even an interview), he decided to not write his last name in the application and only used the initial (he was lucky to have a European first name). The result was 3 interviews on 3 applications and he was able to choose from the 3 jobs he was offered.
"Civis Europaeus sum!"
Even worse?
Everybody is worse at integrating immigrants than the US. Everyone.
The numbers causing shit storms in Europe are America's routine.
Eurotrash really ought to visit before running their whine holes. Not just NYC and LA eather.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Simple solution: England withdraws from the UK, which becomes the United Kingdom of Scotland and Northern Ireland, with a new sovereign Kingdom of England formed. England isn't in the EU, the remaining parts of the UK remain, everybody's happy.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
Until a large number of employers leave because they want access to the single market. JP Morgan is only the first.
Yes, but it means that our exports are more attractive.
Not really. After all, you won't have free access to the EU market. And Scotland and Wales are grumbling about leaving and joining the EU.
Great Britain = England, Scotland, and Wales.- so no more Great Britain
UK = England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland (and the full name is the “United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland”) - so much for the UK
England = Just the part of the island that is England
So it'll be the kingdom of England and Northern Ireland.
And the queen will have her summer castle in a foreign country (Balmoral, in Scotland). That's going to be kind of weird.
"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
It's also the same as giving a 10% cut to all purchases of goods and services from the UK...
You seem to forget that the EU can impose tariffs and other restrictions on imports from the UK so they can grow their own industries. And the UK imports a lot more from the EU than it exports.
Also, on services ... not really. Financial services are going to move to the continent, so there goes "the city" and London's over-inflated property prices.
"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
Chinese. They've got more of them than any other country or bloc.
Unfortunately for the UK, due to the fall of the GBP, it is no longer the 5th largest economy.
Depends on who is measuring I think. The IMF would probably still feel the UK beats out France, but the World Bank and United Nations had the two countries close enough in GDP for France to claim the #5 spot. The UK is still #6 at worst though.
-- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
All you mention benefits first and foremost corporations.
Cheaper flights: How often do you fly? Moving once across the continent may be usual for the US, it is very, very uncommon in Europe. Who benefits from cheap flights?
Roaming fees: How many people do you know abroad that abandoning roaming fees would benefit you. Besides, TANSTAAFL, telcos will not simply swallow the losses, so who gets to pay for corporations' benefit from cheaper international calls?
Lasting peace: Mostly a side effect of corporations not wanting nation states meddling with their profits. Yes, it's nice to live in a safe environment, but don't act as if that's actually something they did for the people.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Ok, I should clarify this.
Yes, it is a union that benefits primarily economic interests, but not of its member states but transnational corporations. There is no unified economic interest among its members. The benefits are rather mostly for corporations that don't give a shit about the EU either.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
As much as I like the idea of a unified Europe, I despise the way it was realized. I would like to live in a Europe that "feels" kinda-like some sort of "USE", but in fact, what I get to see is a bunch of nations bickering and trying to rip as much as possible out of the cake called EU for their own benefit without giving half a shit about the rest of the union.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
And the wine, don't forget the wine. But apart from that...
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
There's a thing called a return ticket. People use them quite a lot when travelling for business or holidays.
You appear to be confusing two different things here.
Do you even have a clue what you're talking about? Shut up and go watch Honey Boo Boo.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Indeed, there is a story about how the Swedish PM complained about the Welsh wine served during a summit in the UK. The Italian PM then made sure to send over a whole box of Italian wine to the Swedish PM.
"Civis Europaeus sum!"
>"Cheaper flights: How often do you fly? Moving once across the continent may be usual for the US, it is very, very uncommon in Europe. Who benefits from cheap flights?"
Personally, usually between 1 and 2 times a month for business and personal reasons. It does vary quite a lot between people. In any case, I have lived in four different EU states so far. It is hard to give numbers, but for short stays (say 6 months to a year) you will find that say 10-20 % have tried this out at some point for studies or work, one out of 15-20 persons will at some point live in another state for a longer time. This isn't really US-level numbers where some states have 50% populations born in other states, but it is steadily growing.
This is actually causing problems now in that a large portion of the population in different countries are taxed but not allowed to vote. I.e. in the brexit case, 3 million EU citizens in the UK were directly affected but where only allowed to pay tax but not have a say in the issue, and secondly 1.5-2 million UK citizens outside the UK where not allowed to vote as you are only allowed to vote the first 15 years you live outside the UK. Looking at how close the results where, where these to vote, it would have had been a clear remain.
> "Roaming fees: How many people do you know abroad that abandoning roaming fees would benefit you. Besides, TANSTAAFL, telcos will not simply swallow the losses, so who gets to pay for corporations' benefit from cheaper international calls?"
When regulating roaming, they also reduced the inter network costs, so it does penalise the Spanish telcos which has a lot of tourists, but in general, no one suffers. About 50 % of my contacts live in another EU state and a lot of them travel around, a lot, for personal reasons and business. My wife for example have reduced her EUR 200 per month phone bills to EUR 50 per month.
> "Lasting peace: Mostly a side effect of corporations not wanting nation states meddling with their profits. Yes, it's nice to live in a safe environment, but don't act as if that's actually something they did for the people."
The Union was formed to create a lasting peace by tying together the member states in a mutual commercial dependence. Yes, this is a side effect of it costing too much to start a war inside the EU, but that was the main point of it...
"Civis Europaeus sum!"
Currencies should be deflationists, so that roman mir can steal from other people by hoarding cash.
Stop shilling or read the Treaty of Rome. The whole peace-promoting bullshit was tacked on when some parts and especially Adenauer started to question the whole idea and with this they couldn't back out easily anymore. In its core the whole deal was at first a French-German cooperation for coal and steel that was later broadened to a wider economic cooperation between them, Italy and the Benelux. The new thing was that the signing countries hand over some powers to a supranational entity, and this eventually expanded to what's now the EU.
As for traveling, what do you mean by having a return ticket? The point is that Europeans in general don't move once across the continent on average as many US people do. Someone born in Latvia does not move to Spain to work (at least usually) but stays in Latvia. Why? Well, language for one. There is no huge benefit for the average person from cheap plane tickets because aside of some larger countries like France or Spain, there is very little non-commercial air traffic going on outside of vacations. And guess what, Europeans love taking a vacation abroad, where the whole advantage simply doesn't come into play.
As for the roaming fees, yes, what matters is that you're abroad and calling. The point is the same: The average person is not going to spend a lot of time abroad. Unless he spends a lot of time abroad (i.e. is one of the few that actually work outside their home country), where they would probably get a phone contract of that country instead. Cui bono? Who benefits? Who benefits from dropped roaming charges? The average Joe who spends 99% of his life in the country he was born? Or multinational corporations?
I have no idea what Honey Boo Boo is, but it might help if you stopped watching it and tried something based in reality for a change. Just an idea.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
You've got that the wrong way round. Upper Paddyland voted 56% remain, Wools was 53% out.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Germany exports a lot to Britain. Ferkel won't let anyone jeopardise that, for all Druncker's big talk.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Does it matter who benefits as the fees have not been raised for the end customer? As for who benefits there are two groups, the end user / customer and the telcos from countries with lower amount of tourisms. The losers are the telcos from tourism dependent countries.
As for the expats, they benefit even with a local contract since they likely call their parents, siblings etc. It is not just the roaming that is hit, but also the rates for calling to other member states.
Some, say 10 years ago, it was very common to read about how people had been provided phone bills of several thousands, and in some cases tens of thousands of euros because they watched youtube without thinking about it when laying on a beach in Spain.
You ask who benefited, well, the people benefits, if any company benefits it is a positive side effect.
"Civis Europaeus sum!"
The UK can do the same on a per-country basis. You do realize that the UK economy is larger than all in Europe except for Germany? Your position makes zero economic sense, especially since many of those countries in the EU have the UK as a main trading partner. As far as finances, they won't move - the infrastructure and PEOPLE are already in-place. The reason the UK stayed the financial hub is precisely BECAUSE it didn't jump on the Euro, it never really became part of the EU. That's why it's going to stay the financial hub as well.
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
Yes, billionaires and investment banks really don't like the Brexit, On that basis alone it must be good.
The simple fact is: all the "remain" arguments are practical, while the "leave" vote was one of principle. The risk of the EU becoming a non-democracy is real (that's half-true today: democratic state governments can block EC rulings, but they can't initiate them). The risk of economic collapse of the EU is real. The cultural values of Britain as something worth holding on to is seen as important by many. National sovereignty and the ability to enforce the borders, to limit immigration to some value lower than infinity, is seen as important by many
Fundamentally, the "remain" camp was arguing money, the "leave" camp was arguing "we want to be British, not European". Which camp will actually work out better for the common man? Brexit will be a cost in the short term; time will tell the long term.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
But again, it's just a side effect. Benefits for the citizens happen as a by-product, provided they don't cut into the bottom line.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
EU has about 28 official languages. Quess how many does US have? Not even one.
If a referendum were held in all the Southern States, whether or not they would like to leave the Union, I would be curious to see the result.
This will come but it might take a few centuries.
Why modded Troll, this is absolutely true.
Not the idiots, idiots are easy to fool. You mean the dangerous, power grabbing, selfish sociopathic but unfortunately intelligent bastards you mention.
Amazing. As if all of the scaremongering and propaganda was on the "remain" camp. I urge you to read the main newspapers in England, like the so ever popular Sun.
If GB wants to remain in the EEA, they will have to accept that any EEA member can come to Britain and work without a visa. They will have to pay into the system too, like all the members.
Guess what, GB, the EU is exactly what members states do with it. There is no supra-national system that forces it to go one way or the others. One member state, one vote on the EU council. Representation is proportional to population in the EU parliament.
Yes, democracy sucks sometimes.
I presume you'll be demanding an end to the House of Lords at some point then given that that's even less democratic than the EU. A lot of billionaires are very pleased judging by the gloating in the press. I wonder what would happen to Sunderland if Nissan decided to relocate to the EU. This it's pretty funny as well. Principles can be wrong, but either way you can't eat them or live in them or wear them.
Congratulations England! You're going to gain your sovereignty back. This is change that crazy radicals would have hailed 50 years ago. Now they don't like it because it's not their change. To be hip, this is it. Statism (all its forms, marxism, fascism, communisn... and so on), fails. It's failed everywhere it's ever tried. Once central government that doesn't give a rip about anyone but themselves. England's parliament was a law body in name only. All the decisions were really made in Brussels, by foreigners. Capitalism is the antidote to tyranny.
Down with socialism.
"The greater the diversity in a community, the fewer people vote and the less they volunteer, the less they give to charity and work on community projects; In the most diverse communities, neighbors trust one another about half as much as they do in the most homogenous settings."
http://www.boston.com/news/glo...
Casteism
As per Washington Post, HINDUS are the most RACIST people on Earth http://www.washingtonpost.com/...
Casteism
If he had written "Higher profits for airlines from more expensive flights, additional charges for telecommunications, freedom to take a big dump on the environment in the name of profits, and a few good wars to sell guns into", well those would have been things that benefits corporations first and foremost.
Even if the only thing the EU accomplishes is fewer wars, that's a good enough reason for it.
It was a very English election:
Pride and Prejudice 52%,
Sense and Sensibility 48%
Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
[Corbyn] was so utterly lukewarm, half-baked and borderline invisible in his support for "Remain" that one suspects this may have been intentional.
Hmm. Corbyn office 'sabotaged' EU Remain campaign - sources.
"Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
EU will not tolerate easily the exit of a vassal. They will do their worst to punish the Brits for this act of high treason
This will play into the hands of eurosceptic right wingers if they pitch it right. "See, EU is punishing UK for disobedience! We can be the next ones, if we turn down refugees again! Let's burn this sucker down before it happens!"
It is a union for corporations trying to maximize their profits, there is not anything tangible in it for the people in the union or their economies beyond the interests of the corporations.
Um, freedom of movement across EU, combined with the ability to seek a job in any country. That is actually very pro-people and anti-corporation (corporations prefer free flow of goods but restricted flow of labor, because then they can cash in on the difference in cost of living, labor protection laws etc between countries that manufacture and countries that consume).
Elizabetta von Schsleswig-Holsten Pilsner (to use her actual name) has her *main* residence in a foreign country.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Germany has been united for over 25 years now. The separation still exists in their heads.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
It's anti-corporation that people from Romania can flood the job markets in middle Europe easily? Gee, who would have thought...
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Yes, it is. It might not benefit you personally, but it sure does benefit those people from Romania way more than it benefits any corporation.
Like I said, the way big corporations like it when they can produce shit in Romania, and pay people who make it the local prevailing wage. Then take the produced goods to you, and sell them for a price that's cheaper than what is possible with local labor, but still way more than what they actually paid in Romania. And pocket the difference. Simply put, they like to outsource, and free movement of labor is detrimental to outsourcing because they can't impose as much of a difference in wages as they could otherwise (since people will just move to where wages are higher beyond a certain threshold).
I have to ask - why do you care about people from Romania flooding your job market, more so than people from some remote corner of your own country? What's the difference?
Mostly that they're more and the chance of pushing the wage average down is higher. And the very last thing we need is even less money on the demand side of the scale.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Well, then, you can push the wages even higher by having your region (or, hey, even city!) secede, and block everyone on the other side of the border from coming there to work. That way, the labor market will shrink, and the wages will skyrocket!
Right?
On a more serious note, economy is not a zero-sum game. Yes, they will depress your wages - short-term. But their country is itself a market, ripe for opportunity - and with truly open borders, your local companies (rather than transnational giants who can literally buy governments) can expand there, creating more jobs - both there (which reduces the number of people who come to compete with you locally) and here (management etc). It takes a while for this to play out, and yes, you need to do it slowly enough that it's not a shock to either economy - and I'm not sure whether EU was expanding slow enough for that, so there's a legitimate gripe there. But done right, the end result is better for everyone, because it means one less shitty country where people want to run away from and go anywhere else, even illegally (and end up living next door and "stealing your job" - and willing to work for pennies, because of just how shitty the place they came from is); where organized crime and other scum like human traffickers have a safe haven; where, eventually, discontent and jealousy breeds aggressive nationalism and/or terrorism.
Once the wages are down, the market is destroyed. Or, more exactly, once the wages are down and people can't refinance their homes anymore to live off borrowed money. THEN the market crashes. Simply due to lacking anyone able to buy anything anymore.
Can't we ONCE learn a thing from history? Look at the depression of the 1930s. It is exactly the same, runs by exactly the same rules, has exactly the same reasons and exactly the same results. And we're even trying exactly the same useless solutions that were tried back then.
The solution back then was a global war. I do hope we can avoid something like this this time around.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
The EU economy is 5x larger than the UK economy. Also, some of the financial services are required by EU law to have their operations in the EU, so once the UK leaves, too damn bad, since everyone else will follow suit to be closer to those offices. The big banks are already looking at properties in Milan, Frankfurt, etc.
"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.