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Telecoms Promise 5G Networks If EU Cripples Net Neutrality (theverge.com)
An anonymous reader quotes The Verge:
A group of 20 major telcos including Deutsche Telekom, Nokia, Vodafone, and BT promise to launch 5G networks in every country in the European Union by 2020 -- so long as governments decide to weaken net neutrality rules. The coalition's plans are outlined in its "5G Manifesto," a seven-page document that details how the companies will roll 5G out across the continent over the next few years. However, by warning against regulation that would ensure an open internet and encouraging nations to water rules down, the companies are effectively holding the new technology for ransom... "The EU must reconcile the need for open Internet with pragmatic rules that foster innovation," reads the manifesto. "The telecom industry warns that current net neutrality guidelines, as put forward by [the Body of European Regulators], create significant uncertainties around 5G return on investment..."
The EU is asking the public to share their feedback on the manifesto.
The EU is asking the public to share their feedback on the manifesto.
In the US I believe this would be a highly illegal act, does the EU not have similar laws?
Blackmail.
Why did the EU want "5G" so badly they threw monies at the telcos to make it happen anyway?
If the telcos don't want it, it must be good for the consumer.
I'm sorry, but your opinion seems to be wrong.
Now, if the EU had any balls, it should pull the licences from those operators and give it to those who would not blackmail them. Or, better yet, promise anti-neutrality rules for AFTER the 5G network is up, then tell them to fuck-off.
The EU government says to the telcos, implement 5G or lose your corporate charter. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
Another day closer to redwood heaven
Isn't this going to run into all kinds of anti-trust law? How can this group of companies get together and agree on something like this? Isn't this a hilarious level of collusion?
Let's turn this the other way around: "If you adhere to net neutrality, we *allow* you to build 5G networks on new fequencys and continue to make a shitload of money with a public resource (aka airwaves)".
5G Price Tiers:
50 Euro/month, 2 GB data cap, throttle to 64 kbps when you pass it for the rest of the month.
100 Euro/month, 3 GB data cap, throttle to 64 kbps when you pass it for the rest of the month.
And so on and so forth. They already do it with 4G, why not 5?
Yes, I really did see the other day a data plan for 21.6 mbps downstream, 1 GB monthly data cap and 64 kbps throttle.
-=This sig has nothing to do with my comment. Move along now=-
If they don't remain competitive, a new technology will come along and they will be gone. :-)
That may still happen
But this is just like going to the government and asking for tax breaks to build something you have to build.
I'd have 0 need for 5G if they were to fuck up the internet framework that's already in place. Why would a government even allow this? Governing has absolutely nothing to do with 5G, this is just outright bullying. How about the Government take over and turn Telecom into a utility and take over the show like they do with utilities etc? Unless they provide 5G with internet framework staying put.
Will the telecoms really leave that much profit on the table and refuse to upgrade their networks?
I don't think they are that stupid. Or, rather, I do think they are that greedy.
I'm calling their bluff.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
Without net neutrality, you have legalized extortion, censorship and bullying. The telecoms are already virtual monopolies, they should be have legal rights to do mafiaesque things.
They can provide 5G but only if they can throttle the speed?
I guess they can't provide 5G then.
EU promises subsidization to Telecoms who build 5G and are NOT part of this listed group of blackmailers here, and an accelerated death of these anti-competitive groups :3
Two can play this game.
So what you're saying is telcos have a plan to roll out new radio service in 4 years that they're pretty confident they can achieve and already want to do.
So I say we respond to this blackmail with some of our own -- schedule all their exiting radio licenses to expire in 2021 and tell them they can only have new ones for 5G if they roll it out in time without any of the content restrictions they asked for. Standing up to this sort of public-resource extortion is exactly the reason we regulate radio use in the first place.
They will and have to launch 5G anyways. This is a scam to try to get something profitable from the EU for work they already have planned.
In the US, our internet service providers promised that with those sweet, sweet government enabling funds, we'd all be connected with "high speed" internet at a "reasonable" price. Here we are, a market with three competitors, a significant portion of the country running under a monopoly, extremely high prices for a limited amount of data (it's not rare to pay $150+ for what goes for €30 here in Germany), and are on the verge to legally owning something the government paid to build and would be promised is theirs. Even if the EU consents, why should they actually build it out? They are promising a verbal contract here, one that technically isn't valid, and if they actually did write a contract it would have the stipulation such that 95% of the country has to use more than 128 Terabytes per month or so. As soon as net neutrality is off the table, you will have to pay €150 for anything faster than 256 kpbs, I guarantee you.
And that's not even considering what the internet was actually for. It may just be a giant commercial venue today, but it's mind blowing to think that once upon a time, it actually was for academic purposes and freedom of speech and all that. While I don't think it should be exclusively a government service, it should at the very least be regulated as a utility should be, or if not that than the government should provide its own service to compete with the private ones. It would be insane to think of a water company limiting your water supply to a trickle, or your electric company deciding that if you don't double your monthly payment they will halve your power supply, and I don't understand why the internet shouldn't be opened the same way, especially given that we've already suffered through every website being a front to sell something, there's enough pure profit going on as it is.
Here's hoping the EU has the balls to do what the US government couldn't (and still can't).
"Set a man a fire, he'll be warm for the rest of the night. Set a man afire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life."
I tried to fill in the survey that is linked to above. First you have to state if you act for a company or as an individual. I filled in Individual. Then I had to answer many mandatory questions about the company I represented and how important 5G was for my company. After that came questions like:
5G European deployment should also target as priority from the start the services that enable creation of ecosystems with vertical industries, namely mMTC and URLL classes of use cases
Agree
Neutral
Disagree
Yeah, I can easily aswer questions like this as an individual who just uses his phone for YouTube and Whatsapp. Thanks EU for the nice survey.
-- Cheers!
If this doesn't prove that these guys are in complete collusion, out to dismantle competition, and more importantly, prove that a pure free capitalistic market is just a fantasy, I don't know what example you would need to persuade you.
This is proof that governments need to treat telecommunications as a utility just like water, power and gas and go deploy it themselves, just as NYC is doing with link.nyc. And NYC is doing this because Verizon had over four million complains on the NYPUC website (the weren't deploying FiOS as fast as they agreed to) and Time Warner has turned the five Boris into a third world country with their shitty service.
"current net neutrality guidelines, as put forward by [the Body of European Regulators], create significant uncertainties around 5G return on investment..."
It's a bluff.
Assume that they hold 5G for ransom. It would only take one company to start rolling out 5G, and that company would have the market all to itself -- a phenomenal competitive advantage.
Their united front is too fragile. One of the companies will find the temptation to roll out 5G to be overwhelming.
At some point in the near future 5G will be made obsolete by the next best thing but net neutrality will be screwed forever.
Net Neutrality: Level playing ground. We can't be having none of that, nope... because it stifles:
Innovation: New and interesting ways in which to squeeze every farthing out of every consumer / customer / person.
The "Civilized World" jumped the shark ca. 1973.
This kind of corruption is what happens when federal government bureaucracies grow too powerful. If the EU didn't exist there would be country to country competition. The UK may wind up being the technology leader in Europe in ten years if the remaining EU allows telco extortion. Then watch all country-exit happen leaving an empty EU.
Coerced into doing anything unless of course it comes with big bribes.
"Net neutrality laws are here to protect everyone, and will not be weakened. If your organizations can't keep up with technology, the wireless spectrum community resource that has been temporarily leased to you be revoked and assigned to more capable enterprises. Any attempt to interfere with the handover (or degradation of service) will be answered with an eminent domain seizure of telecom equipment to support critical infrastructure and communication services until the handover is complete."
A government is a body of people notably ungoverned - AC
it's real simple - if they want to lose money by not following the rules set by the EU, that's fine. all the EU has to do is offer the opportunity (including grants) to companies that *will* comply with the rules. i'd suggest they begin by offering the opportunity to the phone coop.
The innovation is already done. They're taking about implementation and profit, and there's nothing wrong with the people saying, "No, you don't get to make that much money. You can either take what we're willing to pay you, or you can go home."
We promise 5g!
You know, so long as we get to redefine what "5g" means. We could probably run it on our existing networks, with that caveat
In my opinion cell phone networks should be unified. What I mean by that is that no matter who your cellphone provider is you should be able to use the towers closest to you. On my remote rural house Verizon has a cell tower but the rest are far away making Verizon the only that really works where I live. That makes no sense to me. Everyone in my area should be able to connect to this tower. There should be agreements between the different cell carriers that would allow using the closest tower to you. They should also turn all spectrum into a data network and use VoIP over it rather than normal calls and texts.
If the EU swaps net neutrality for 5G, I have a perfect advertising slogan for the fist company which implements it:
The fastest ghetto network in town!
"Recommendation for Naturalization of Telco Assets"
Bark less. Wag more.
Extortion, shut down the telecom companies due to fraud.
Personally this is why the network infrastructure should not be owned by private interests.
The way I read it, they are saying they could have gone to 5g already, but are holding out to dig even deeper in the consumer's pocket.
Don't step on the baby.
Tell them no.
Then tell them the first one with 5G at 80% coverage gets a tax break or free license for a time period, provided the price for service plans remains reasonable.
Then the rest get no breaks, and have a competitor with a 5G network.
See how that works out.
I call bluff. They WILL have to offer 5g networks or people will simply ignore them and keep their data transportation need on land lines. Which will cut into THEIR bottom line, not anyone else's.
So go ahead and hold that 5g for ransom. It's not like anyone but you gets hurt by it.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
[Big telecom companies] promise to launch 5G networks in every country in the European Union by 2020 -- so long as governments decide to weaken net neutrality rules.
Translation: if governments do not weaken net neutrality rules, other smaller telecom companies will be able to set up 5G networks, and that will hurt big telecom profits.
...but it sure seems like blackmail to me.
(Of course, IANAL blah, blah, blah...)
CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
The EU should tell em to fuck off. Since 5G will ride the internet backbone for data, etc.
Or, the EU should back down, but jack up surcharges on the 5G networks.
Nationalize all the commercial telecoms. Then convert them to local and regional cooperatives. Communications is a utility now. While we're at it, we can do the same with the commercial power companies. I am lucky enough to live in an area served by an electric co-op. I live next door to people who have a large fee attached to their electric bill just so that the local commercial power company can pretend to build a site for a nuclear plant that will never be constructed.
No more of this phony blackmail. [pun intended.]
Collusion? Conspiracy? You bet. Taken to court? Probably not yet. But watch out when your licenses are up for renewal as these quotes will come back to haunt them. Don't expect too many of these firms to be able to merge with each other or others after making threats that come just short of electronic warfare on the modern day economics.
ask yourself what the lowest price tier is that doesn't forbid tethering and server operating in the terms of service. Oh, it's all bullshit, sometimes I forget.
The worst expected consequence of keeping neutrality,is a little slower roll-out, but that mean cheaper and better tested when it does roll out.
4Gs (GGGG) should be enough.
It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
I attempted to fill out the EU survey - representing my company - in order to show my support for net neutrality. The section on the Telecom Mafia's manifesto doesn't seem to clearly indicate any mention of their blackmailing attempt:
The Internation Telecomunictions Union (ITU) published its International Mobile Telecomunications (IMT) Vision Document 'M2083' which specifies three broad classes of services, further detailed in Next Generation Mobile Networks Alliance (NGMN) or in the 3G PP SA1 "Smarter group". These cover very high data rate services (enhanced Mobile Broadband - eMBB), massive IoT types of usage with very low power requirements (massive machine type communication - mMTC), and use cases with very low latency for time critical applications (ultra reliable low latency - URLL). In a number of countries, eMBB is considered the priority service for deployment. The European political goals for the Digital Single Market (DSM) and the Digitising European Industry (DEI) indicate that European priorities should be for mMTC and URLL use cases applicable in sectors such as health, transport, manufacturing.
5G introduction in Europe should target the eMBB use case from the start, to align with priorities in other regions and ensure early availability of these services also in Europe to create global markets
Agree / Neutral / Disagree
5G European deployment should also target as priority from the start the services that enable creation of ecosystems with vertical industries, namely mMTC and URLL classes of use cases
Agree / Neutral / Disagree
According to your market estimates, what would in your view be the largest 5G market globally in 2020 and in 2025, and how would you rate them?
In 2020, largest market:
eMBB / mMTC / URLL
In 2025, largest market:
eMBB / mMTC / URLL
So they're promising us 5G networks, are they?
That's great. Maybe first they could get the 4G networks up to scratch. The 4G coverage in the UK right now is so patchy it's laughable, and it's been that way for a long time. Plus you pay double for the privelege of using it. 3G was the same -- they launched it with huge fanfare, but it took years and years before it was actually usable for most the population outside of London.
If the pattern repeats, I won't expect to be using 5G any time in the next decade, regardless of any outcome from this story.
Realistically, this is sabre-rattleing from the telecoms companies. They'll launch 5G anyway. And if they don't, then their competitors will.
No need to do that. If I was the regulator I would just keep issuing the same statement in response to these multimillionaire CEOs - 'so you're saying you're not as good a business person as Page or Zuckerberg, so you want us to see if we can help you out?'.
Nobody is stopping these highly successful alpha business people from using their vast consumer relationships and network access to start their own youtube or whatever. The only thing stopping them is that they are not good enough at business. Perhaps if that message is shoved in their faces enough their shareholders will start demanding CEOs with entrepreneurial nous instead of the current crop of highly paid whinger.
A group of 20 major telcos including Deutsche Telekom, Nokia, Vodafone, and BT
Since when has Nokia been a telco?
Nokia began to focus more extensively on its telecommunications infrastructure business, marked by [...] and the acquisitions of French telecommunications company Alcatel-Lucent and digital health maker Withings in 2016. (via Wikipedia)
Oh.
is for ONE of the Telcos to break ranks with the rest and start offering a 5g network for public use. ( Investor pressure will force this eventually )
The others will panic over the loss of customers / revenue and will follow suit rather quickly. They'll have to.
Their investors will not tolerate sitting on the sidelines.
Stuck at current speeds vs. only being able to use the services a carrier decides I can use?
I think you know where you can put your 5G.
:T:R:A:N:S:
If you have an extremely fast network that limits what is fast, then the vast majority of content will not be fast. Therefore, you do not have an extremely fast network.
The better option would be to offset these telecoms by taking away their monopoly power by allowing many cities to operate their own hubs and connect to each other in a way that doesn't use these telecoms. When the telecoms see that they have to compete with cities themselves, they'll start offering a good value proposition.
If launching 5G networks works financially for the companies then they will do it.. With or without Net Neutrality laws.
Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
They increase speed and then slowly drop it back down again.
They will be coming out with a faster 5G anyway.
This is a negotiation tactic. The deployment of new tech is inevitable---it's just a question of when.
As long as the government doesn't cave, there will be consumer demand eventually, and the first company to deploy 5G gets those customers. The rest will follow suit in time.
We have net neutrality rules because we know they'll be dickheads without them. Why would anyone take away those protections when they're act like even bigger dickheads right now?
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According to the latest ruleset, this post should be modded as Vorpal Flamebait +5.
you will be able to walk next year if you stop threatening people.
The EU must reconcile the need for an open internet with our endless hunger for a corner on the market and profits
Say it like it is, shithead telecoms.
Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
since those companies are just trying to profit from promoting/hiding traffic, charge them 1 million/month for the privilege and let the non-asshole competitors flourish
and with net neutrality you have higher prices and stricter plan quotas, it is a choose your poison situation. you can't have everything without a cost.