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Cities Struggling To Crack Down On Airbnb Renters (latimes.com)

An anonymous Slashdot reader writes: A California man has been charged with eight misdemeanors for renting several apartments under his own name, and then subletting them all. "Apartments in Santa Monica that might fetch $3500 a month as ordinary rentals, are worth three or four times that on a daily or weekly basis," reports one newsweekly, and the subletter notes that he only received two years of probation plus a $3,500 fine, "what one of my properties makes in a month." On Wednesday three prominent U.S. Senators "called for a regulatory probe into whether short-term rental websites such as Airbnb are taking housing away from long-term renters and pushing up prices," but the number of Americans planning to use Airbnb this summer has apparently already doubled since last year.

The Hotel and Lodging Association of Alaska is complaining that the state's renters "are not required to follow the same state and federal safety mandates that are required for other hotels and lodges creating an unsafe and unfair market for consumers as well as hoteliers." But it seems like currently the only pushback is coming from local and city officials, like the short-term rental rules that Airbnb is currently fighting in their home city of San Francisco. For example, in Maine, the owner of one of Portland's 425 rentals units is now fighting a city order "demanding that he stop renting out part of his home through Airbnb. "Portland has a limited staff to enforce zoning rules, so it comes down on the most egregious cases, said City Hall spokeswoman Jessica Grondin."

I laughed at the quote from the City Hall spokeswoman. "It's kind of like speeding on the highway. You know it is illegal, you do it anyway, and you get caught."

169 of 260 comments (clear)

  1. EditorDavid by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I laughed at the quote from the City Hall spokeswoman. "It's kind of like speeding on the highway. You know it is illegal, you do it anyway, and you get caught."

    Your an idiot EditorDavid.

    1. Re: EditorDavid by Rick+Zeman · · Score: 1

      EditorDavid has an idiot?

      Yeah, someone with that kind of grammar has no right to call someone else an idiot.

    2. Re: EditorDavid by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Complaining about the quality of editors on Slashdot? Pretend it was a year ago (Dice and 2.0 in full force)

  2. Not even close to Speeding by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    When I speed, I'm not forcing people with smaller cars off of the expressway and onto dirt roads, far far away.

    These people are driving up the rents and prices of homes in communities, while not being restricted by the laws that hotels/motels/holidayinns have to follow. So for those who want decent housing at decent pricing, they have to live far away, or in worse areas.. driving the next people to live farther and worse-er.

    1. Re:Not even close to Speeding by jmcvetta · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Get real, dude. Rents in Santa Monica were sky high before Airbnb. Rents there will continue to be outrageous until the city government allows enough housing to be built to meet demand. Restrictive zoning - and the macroeconomic relation between the money value of land versus labor - is the cause of high rents, not short term rentals.

    2. Re:Not even close to Speeding by crow_t_robot · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Speeding endangers lives; airbnb renting does not. Therefore, speeding is much worse. Let them do what they want with their property.

    3. Re:Not even close to Speeding by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      "They own the houses, they can do what they feel like."
      Wrong. You clearly have no idea what "owning" a house means.

    4. Re:Not even close to Speeding by jittles · · Score: 1

      Speeding endangers lives; airbnb renting does not. Therefore, speeding is much worse. Let them do what they want with their property.

      Well that certainly depends. What if the property they are renting on AirBnB is unsafe? Doesn't have all of the safety accommodations that one might expect in a rented lodging? Hell, you could die in a fire because the place doesn't have smoke detectors or a fire extinguisher. AirBnB is just like Uber: they flout the rules that drive up the cost of the service industry they are competing and act as though they are somehow different than those services themselves. They are not. And certainly the people who are renting their property out on AirBnB are cheating their own community. Maybe they make a few dollars but they also deprive their community of the hotel taxes that AirBnB does not collect. Therefore they are a blight on their community.

      Oh And PS, studies have found that people driving slow in the left hand lane are more dangerous than those who speed. Even insurance companies are trying to get their customers to drive faster or get out of the way.

    5. Re:Not even close to Speeding by I75BJC · · Score: 1

      So, you want every home (remember every home is a potential airbnb place) inspected by the Governments? Your friends come to spend the weekend. You want the Governments to come and Tax you for "Lost Revenue"? Your family comes, a foreign exchange student comes, a refugee comes, a co-worker comes, a visitor of any kind comes. How do you prove that You aren't an airbnb-er. Do you want to pay Taxes to have a guest? The Governments just love this idea – inspect every home, tax every home for every visitor, make the home owner, home renter pay, Pay, PAY! That's the ticket!

    6. Re: Not even close to Speeding by sonicmerlin · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure I understand why Airbnb rents remain so high though. Even if you try to rent out a place for a month it's significantly more than a typical month long rental. Shouldn't competition drive prices down?

    7. Re:Not even close to Speeding by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      They own the houses, they can do what they feel like.

      Hey neighbor! I hope you won't mind the composting and recycling operation we'll be opening up in our front yard. The trucks will be by twice a day, so you may want to time you entry and exit to miss them. The nighttime lighting will be pretty bright, so you might want to get some blackout shades too. And we'll be having an all-day hip-hop jam to kick things off the first Saturday of each month!

    8. Re:Not even close to Speeding by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

      When I speed, I'm not forcing people with smaller cars off of the expressway and onto dirt roads, far far away.

      These people are driving up the rents and prices of homes in communities, while not being restricted by the laws that hotels/motels/holidayinns have to follow. So for those who want decent housing at decent pricing, they have to live far away, or in worse areas.. driving the next people to live farther and worse-er.

      Prices communicate information. When prices rise, it means that there is a shortage of the commodity being traded with respect to current demand. The rising price causes three very good things to happen, in this order:

      1. Conservation: people find ways to economize on housing costs;
      2. New supply: more housing gets built, unless you're in California where it is illegal to build anything new;
      3. Replacement: Big single-family houses get replaced by condos and then high-rise condos as is typical in an urbanizing environment, saving on footprint and resources.

      Now think about this. It works this way with ANY commodity.

    9. Re:Not even close to Speeding by jittles · · Score: 2

      So, you want every home (remember every home is a potential airbnb place) inspected by the Governments? Your friends come to spend the weekend. You want the Governments to come and Tax you for "Lost Revenue"? Your family comes, a foreign exchange student comes, a refugee comes, a co-worker comes, a visitor of any kind comes. How do you prove that You aren't an airbnb-er. Do you want to pay Taxes to have a guest? The Governments just love this idea – inspect every home, tax every home for every visitor, make the home owner, home renter pay, Pay, PAY! That's the ticket!

      Oh please. The government is not trying to inspect every home or tax you for your visitors. How do they know you're not an AirBnBer? Because you don't file a 1099 from AirBnB! That's how. The IRS knows if AirBnB is paying you more than $500 a year. And if you're renting out your place for less than $500 a year, I don't think anyone in the government would want to waste their time bothering with you anyway.

    10. Re:Not even close to Speeding by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 2

      These people are driving up the rents and prices of homes in communities

      The rents are driven up by housing shortages. The NIMBYs and BANANAs have stopped nearly all housing construction in most big American cities. In SF, more than 95% of building permits were rejected last year, and most prospective builders didn't even bother to submit a request. So new growth is forced out into the suburban sprawl. Blaming the shortage of urban housing on Airbnb is silly.

    11. Re:Not even close to Speeding by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      So, you want every home (remember every home is a potential airbnb place) inspected by the Governments?

      Of course not. They would only have to be inspected when they are placed on the market. In fact, even that is not necessary. Instead the government could just publicise the requirements, and offer a reward for turning in violators. So, if I stay in an Airbnb, and there is no smoke detector in my room, I can report the violation and receive a portion of the fine.

      Disclaimer: I rent several rooms on Airbnb. They all have smoke detectors, as required under California law.

    12. Re: Not even close to Speeding by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1

      AirBnB gets a percentage of the money. Why would they do anything to encourage price wars?

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    13. Re:Not even close to Speeding by SydShamino · · Score: 2

      Actually, what *I* want is for the government to leave alone owner-occupied homes that they rent out all or part of for part of the year, while cracking down entirely on short-term rentals in residential zoning for houses and apartments that aren't owner occupied.

      If you're renting it short term, and you aren't doing so as a secondary use to your own residence as the owner, then your doing commercial renting and should be subject to all commercial renting rules and regulations, including zoning regulations.

      Wow, that covers all of your extreme examples.

      --
      It doesn't hurt to be nice.
    14. Re:Not even close to Speeding by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Rents in Santa Monica were sky high before Airbnb. Rents there will continue to be outrageous until the city government allows enough housing to be built to meet demand.

      Protip: Before shooting your mouth off with Libertarian talking points you should probably make a little effort to know what you're talking about in the first place. Santa Monica is developed to the maximum. Almost every property in the city is apartments, condos, or impossibly small houses. The buildings are so close together that you could reach your arm out your window and grab the salt off the neighbor's table almost. So many people are packed into every square foot that you have to circle your block several times just to get a parking spot. Building apartments or condos on the remaining properties that aren't wouldn't create enough supply to make any significant dent in prices. Where the fuck are they going to build more housing, and where the fuck are those people going to park? Did you not think about the fact that a city has a finite size and the mathematical impossibility of providing an infinite supply of a finite resource?

      Restrictive zoning - and the macroeconomic relation between the money value of land versus labor - is the cause of high rents, not short term rentals.

      Restrictive zoning is why you don't hear about things like fertilizer plants blowing up and taking out a school, houses, and a hospital in California. We leave that kind of stupid to places like Texas. Restrictive zoning is why you don't live in a peaceful neighborhood and suddenly have your neighbor decide they're going to tear down their house to build a mini mall next door. Restrictive building codes are why a moderate earthquake kills a dozen people instead of 50,000 like in the third-world where you can just build whatever you want however you want wherever you want. Places without restrictive zoning and building codes aren't cheap because of that, they're cheap because the demand for those shitty places is low.

    15. Re:Not even close to Speeding by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      Socialists and Liberals have no idea about value in a scarce commodity. They artificially make scarce a commodity (real estate zoning / rent control) in a vain effort to force private people into their own will, only to have it backfire repeatedly. And the excuse for continuing the repeating the failed social experiments is ... "This time, we'll get it right"

      The government should not be creating artificial restrictions for social purposes. It doesn't work, makes things worse, and in the end, screws everyone.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    16. Re:Not even close to Speeding by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      Oh Please yourself. When the Libertarians are rejected for "Somalia" and "dirty air and water", people like yourself cheer. Here is a REAL example of something government is likely to do, and you're "oh please", dismissing it.

      Fact is, AirBNB is allowing people to make an extra buck on the side. The government can't figure out the difference between a person who is on AirBNB to make an extra buck or two, and one that is there to make a lot of money. Nor should it care. And that is the problem.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    17. Re:Not even close to Speeding by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      Why should government be involved at all? There is very little difference between renting month to month, and renting week to week. In fact, there are whole communities that are built around weekly even daily rentals (tourist, vacation homes), that have VERY little government oversight.

      This just smells of "We have to do something, this is something, therefore we must do it" kneejerking

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    18. Re:Not even close to Speeding by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      Now think about this. It works this way with ANY commodity.

      Except when government central planning (i.e. "rent control") doesn't account for supply/demand from Econ 101

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    19. Re:Not even close to Speeding by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      That's fine. I have set up my backyard Shooting Range. Sorry about any stray bullets.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    20. Re:Not even close to Speeding by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      The buildings are so close together that you could reach your arm out your window and grab the salt off the neighbor's table almost. So many people are packed into every square foot that you have to circle your block several times just to get a parking spot. Building apartments or condos on the remaining properties that aren't wouldn't create enough supply to make any significant dent in prices. Where the fuck are they going to build more housing, and where the fuck are those people going to park?

      Oh please. It's very simple: the buildings are too small, so they need to tear them down and build bigger buildings, just like they do in Manhattan. When you run out of space to build out, you build up. Are you unable to think in 3 dimensions?

      As for parking, that's what parking garages are for.

      If the land is really *that* valuable, then high-rise condos with underground garages are perfectly affordable. It's only restrictive zoning that prevents it from happening.

    21. Re:Not even close to Speeding by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      Cool, sounds like you might like to play with my new Pebble Nuclear Reactor, I built as proof of concept, wanna see?

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    22. Re:Not even close to Speeding by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      What if the property they are renting on AirBnB is unsafe?

      If that's the case, then why is the local government allowing someone to live in the house in the first place?

      As for the driving slow in the left lane thing, that's another good example of the failure in government to do what's right. They'd rather collect ticket revenue than make rules which promote safety and are backed by evidence. It's no different than the Drug War.

    23. Re:Not even close to Speeding by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      Actually, the previous poster is the reason why Liberals want to regulate EVERYTHING, not just guns.

      They want to regulate my car, house, business, lifestyle, religion, income, property, and indoctrinate my children in public schools with social engineering.

      But yeah, go with the guns!

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    24. Re:Not even close to Speeding by dcw3 · · Score: 1

      Is there really space for much new development? Here in Northern VA, (Fairfax) it's mostly built out....if you wanted to do new development, you'd need to take down old.

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
    25. Re:Not even close to Speeding by georgewad · · Score: 1

      One does not simply "build up" in an earthquake zone.

      --
      Karma: It's not just a good idea. It's the law.
    26. Re:Not even close to Speeding by jmcvetta · · Score: 1

      Protip: Before shooting your mouth off with Libertarian talking points

      Not a Libertarian. But please continue...

      Santa Monica is developed to the maximum.

      Have you actually been to Santa Monica? The areas directly adjacent the beach are somewhat developed, with smallish high-rises. Most of the rest of the city is shitty wooden buildings under 4 stories.

    27. Re:Not even close to Speeding by jmcvetta · · Score: 1

      A well-designed (i.e. meets current building code) high-rise building has greater earthquake resiliency than a your typical wooden house.

      Please note, building safety code != zoning code. Different goals, different effects on the housing market.

    28. Re:Not even close to Speeding by jmcvetta · · Score: 1

      There's roughly zero undeveloped land in SF. But there is fucking tons of very nice land covered with tiny, craptastic 2- and 3-story wooden houses. For example, almost all of Potrero Hill.

      So yes, you would need to take down old structures to build new.

      Imho, a few of those shitbox houses should be preserved for the sake of history. But it would be no loss to the city if the vast majority were torn down and replaced with larger, higher quality buildings.

    29. Re:Not even close to Speeding by dcw3 · · Score: 1

      Well, then you'd need to get everyone in an area to agree to sell them...not that simple. And, I'm sure a lot of the owners of those "shitbox" homes would fight not to have to live next to a highrise. I know I would.

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
    30. Re:Not even close to Speeding by jmcvetta · · Score: 1

      A sale can almost always be made, if the price is right. :)

      But yes, NIMBY runs strong in SF. Thus the Manhattanization of the few tiny areas of land where high rise development is permitted - while vast swaths of the city's land area remain a grim suburban wasteland.

    31. Re:Not even close to Speeding by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

      The price model I outlined is precisely what shows up badly implemented central planning as the fraud it is. Rent control is basically a law forbidding the tide from coming in. The rise of companies like AirBNB is the free economy routing its way around such "damage."

    32. Re:Not even close to Speeding by dcw3 · · Score: 1

      You obviously feel high rise development is a good thing. I on the other hand would never live in an area blighted by such monstrosities. IMO, it's just another sign of over development, and over population. So sure...people have different tastes, and both can be accommodated.

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
    33. Re:Not even close to Speeding by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      They do it in Japan. Earthquakes aren't a problem for tall buildings, the problem is the composition of the ground. I don't know what the ground is like in Santa Monica. I've been told there's some problems with trying to build too tall in SanFran because of the geology, but Santa Monica is a very long way from there.

    34. Re: Not even close to Speeding by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1

      No, I'm serious. Why would they want prices on their system lowered?

      --
      Your ad here. Ask me how!
  3. Simple solution by smooth+wombat · · Score: 2

    Crank up the fines and forbid people from renting at more than one location.

    Start at $10,000 per violation.

    --
    We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
    1. Re:Simple solution by ben_kelley · · Score: 2

      $10,000? Assuming you get caught (see quote about limited resources to police zoning violations) that's still not a lot of a deterrent.

      There is a lot of money involved here. Consider that as a property investor you can get triple the return if you let your apartments through Airbnb.

      The other impact is that this drives up rents across the city for "normal" people.

    2. Re:Simple solution by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 2

      Well that would suck... I live in Ventura but work 3-4 days a week in San Francisco. So I have places in both cities (it's cheaper to rent an apartment in SF than to do hotels for 2 to 3 nights a week). I guess I pay a violation because my commute is long enough I choose to stay overnight?

      Rather than renting more than 1 location, make the penalty for illegally subletting a place (which is what many AirBNB places are - a person rents an apartment then starts to rent it out to others for considerably more than the base rental cost) rather than a person renting a few places for their own exclusive personal use.

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    3. Re:Simple solution by jeremy.brown3327 · · Score: 1

      How about this fine is all the rent you have ever collected on that AirBnB?

  4. Re:Landlords by known_coward_69 · · Score: 2

    not like the landlord is there every day. some of them own property and live in another state and simply collect the rent

  5. Of course by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    "Only we should be allowed to profit off of people by charging them lots of money in order to have a place to live! You can't do it too!"

  6. Re:Can't let the money fall into the wrong hands! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If by "little people", you mean folks that can buy 425 properties, you and I have very different definitions... The article is all about the abusing that people with plenty of money are doing to a system would have worked if it was only done on a small scale.

  7. Re:Can't let the money fall into the wrong hands! by jmcvetta · · Score: 2

    In Soviet America, land owns you!

  8. the usual suspects by ooloorie · · Score: 5, Insightful

    On Wednesday three prominent U.S. Senators "called for a regulatory probe into whether short-term rental websites such as Airbnb are taking housing away from long-term renters and pushing up prices," but the number of Americans planning to use Airbnb this summer has apparently already doubled since last year.

    Well, it sure is pushing down prices for hotels. Which is probably why crony capitalists get all pushed out of shape about this. As for housing prices and the housing shortage, AirBnB isn't responsible for that, it's zoning laws, rent control, and the interference of the federal government in the mortgage markets. But, hey, leave it to the usual suspects (Warren, Feinstein) to first wreck people's lives and then blame "big evil corporations" for the mess they created.

    1. Re:the usual suspects by ohnocitizen · · Score: 1

      So airbnb demand is going up, and it lets property owners charge far more than long term renters pay, and you somehow think it isn't responsible at all for the housing prices and shortage problem? Not even a bit? That's totally unconvincing. Zoning laws and rent control are part of it, but clearly they need to be updated to state where airbnb locations can happen. Or better yet, let's allow for reasonable airbnb use. Going out of town for a month and want to rent? Using airbnb to meet new people and rent out a spare room? That's all fine. Want to buy 10 properties and treat them like a hotel? No. Use your money elsewhere, or BUY A HOTEL. Zoning laws won't cover this distinction. And I want to be able to keep airbnb and shut down the people abusing the system.

    2. Re:the usual suspects by ooloorie · · Score: 1

      So airbnb demand is going up, and it lets property owners charge far more than long term renters pay,

      Property owners charge more to short term renters than to long term renters because short term renting is riskier.

      and you somehow think it isn't responsible at all for the housing prices and shortage problem? Not even a bit?

      Short term housing and long term housing are indeed in competition for housing units; but based on what do you prefer one to the other? Why is it better to arbitrarily force property owners to allocate more resources to long term housing and fewer to short term housing?

      In any case, the massive housing shortage and astronomical housing prices in places like San Francisco has nothing to do with AirBnB since it existed long before. The reason for that is much simpler: voters vote to create housing shortages because they see it in their own interest. It's highly dysfunctional, but voters in places like San Francisco only have themselves to blame.

    3. Re:the usual suspects by PraiseBob · · Score: 1

      Why is it better to arbitrarily force property owners to allocate more resources to long term housing and fewer to short term housing?

      People NEED somewhere to live for a stable society and healthy cities. STR such as Airbnb are almost all vacations and tourists. While tourism is valuable, it does come 2nd place to having a place to live.

    4. Re:the usual suspects by ooloorie · · Score: 1

      While tourism is valuable, it does come 2nd place to having a place to live.

      Really? If it always comes "2nd place", why have hotels at all? Why not convert all hotels into apartments? Who decides?

      People NEED somewhere to live for a stable society and healthy cities.

      The problem with places like San Francisco is an imbalance between jobs, housing, and other demands on space. Since the decision on tradeoffs between these different demands are pretty much entirely made by government in San Francisco, that imbalance is clearly the fault of government, not of developers, AirBnB, property owners, or anybody else. So, given a decades long history of failed city planning that has created the current mess, the idea that limiting AirBnB rentals is going to address these problems is ludicrous.

    5. Re:the usual suspects by ohnocitizen · · Score: 1

      Short term housing and long term housing are indeed in competition for housing units; but based on what do you prefer one to the other? Why is it better to arbitrarily force property owners to allocate more resources to long term housing and fewer to short term housing?

      Because otherwise you make having a home impossible for a larger segment of society. How would you feel about making 6 figures and having to move from a nice 2 bedroom into a crappy studio to keep living where you do? The problem with too many armchair politicians is they don't consider the real world impact of policies like this. It means families needing to move and trying to find a job in a new city because they can't afford to live in their homes anymore. It means people getting out of college, and if they are lucky enough to find a job STILL not being able to find housing.

    6. Re:the usual suspects by ooloorie · · Score: 1

      How would you feel about making 6 figures and having to move from a nice 2 bedroom into a crappy studio to keep living where you do?

      I know exactly what it feels like, which is why I oppose these policies.

      The problem with too many armchair politicians is they don't consider the real world impact of policies like this

      Quite right: that is exactly what armchair politicians do when they impose rent control, rental restrictions, and other rules that discourage the construction of more rental housing.

  9. Re:Can't let the money fall into the wrong hands! by known_coward_69 · · Score: 1

    then maybe Airbnb should collect the local hotel tax since that is how many cities bring in revenue?

  10. Isn't this standard way to do business? by ls671 · · Score: 1

    Isn't this the standard way to do business in America? I mean buy something and resell it for a profit.

    --
    Everything I write is lies, read between the lines.
    1. Re:Isn't this standard way to do business? by jmcvetta · · Score: 2

      The landlord rents out unfurnished space on a long term lease. It's a passive business, a way to make money from ownership of capital.

      The Airbnb host hires out a fully furnished, immediately habitable living space on a very short term. It's an active business, a way to make money from the application of labor to relatively little capital.

  11. The old struggling to fight off the new by mi · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Be it Uber or AirBNB, the pattern is the same — the old way of doing things is struggling against the technology-enabled new way.

    We lived through this, when automobiles replaced horse-drawn transport, we are witnessing it now...

    creating an unsafe and unfair market for consumers as well as hoteliers

    It is decidedly no less "safe" than the overpriced "real" hotels/motels. And it is only unfair because of the costs of government-regulations, which those "real" establishments have always passed on to their customers.

    With the immediately-available customer ratings offered by the new companies, the government regulators are simply no longer necessary. If "fairness" is a concern, the hotels should be left alone — and unregulated — too.

    --
    In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    1. Re:The old struggling to fight off the new by geoskd · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If "fairness" is a concern, the hotels should be left alone — and unregulated — too.

      I'm not normally one to drink the "regulation is bad" coolaid, but in this case, the regulation serves a function that has been deprecated by the new instant availability of information. This is definitely one of those cases where technology has rendered moot the underlying reality that forced the need for regulation in the first place. The only problem is that regulation in the hotel industry lines the pockets of the already established players as well as the town and cities doing the regulating. Just like the cab industry, its time for an overhaul of these regulations and a thorough re-examination of the underlying realities. I find it overwhelmingly likely that its time to give that regulation the axe, and free up hotels and motels to be more cost competitive with airbnb. There will still be a market for hotels, just not nearly such a big one, which seems only fair, as all of the hotels near where I live sit mostly empty most of the time. They can afford that business model because most of their costs come from actually renting the room (aka taxes contingent upon occupancy). This kind of a change will start a culling in the hotel industry that, frankly, its about time we actually got around to. Free up some of that prime real estate in and around hotels, train stations, and major venues for things that provide more social value to the local residents.

      --
      I wish I had a good sig, but all the good ones are copyrighted
    2. Re:The old struggling to fight off the new by Harlequin80 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It is materially less safe than the existing hotel market. A simple example is hotels are held to a much higher standard for fire safety. Being held to those higher standards imposes a cost on a business. If you can operate in the grey areas without those costs you have a significant commercial advantage at the risk that a fire may kill / injure people that wouldn't have been killed or hurt if your building had been compliant.

    3. Re:The old struggling to fight off the new by Harlequin80 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      How would an immediately available customer rating know if the carpets were fire retardant or not? That all the electrical items were tagged and tested regularly? That food handling procedures were up to standard, that kitchens were clean?

    4. Re:The old struggling to fight off the new by mi · · Score: 1

      How would an immediately available customer rating know if the carpets were fire retardant or not?

      If I don't have fire-retarding carpets where I live, I shall not require them, where I choose to stay for a few days.

      That food handling procedures were up to standard

      If anyone gets food-poisoning, they'll mention it in their review of the place — that's all it merits.

      that kitchens were clean?

      Same thing.

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    5. Re:The old struggling to fight off the new by DerekLyons · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Be it Uber or AirBNB, the pattern is the same â" the old way of doing things is struggling against the technology-enabled new way.

      We lived through this, when automobiles replaced horse-drawn transport, we are witnessing it now...

      Horseshit.
       

      creating an unsafe and unfair market for consumers as well as hoteliers

      It is decidedly no less "safe" than the overpriced "real" hotels/motels.

      Horseshit. A real hotel controls it's keys so that only I and the hotel staff have access to my room. Such control is virtually impossible in an AirBNB situation. In addition, a real hotel has a front desk staff and usually some form of security staff keeping an eye on the premises. A random rental from AirBNB does not. And that's on top of the fire safety and other issues raised by other commenters.
       

      With the immediately-available customer ratings offered by the new companies, the government regulators are simply no longer necessary.

      Presuming the ratings are honest - which I do not trust them to be. Customers have no interest in honest ratings, and can be penalized for them if they cast aspersions on the service. The rental agency itself has no incentive to be scrupulously honest because they don't want to piss off too many providers. Etc... etc... Not to mention, few customers will rate (or even have the technical know how to rate) such things as the fire protection system.

    6. Re:The old struggling to fight off the new by SlaveToTheGrind · · Score: 1, Troll

      It is materially less safe than the existing hotel market. A simple example is hotels are held to a much higher standard for fire safety.

      I call bullshit -- that is, if you care about actual outcomes as opposed to bureaucratic box checking. Show me one Airbnb death from fire. One. If you can find one, then we can go on to discuss whether Airbnb's effective per-room-night death rate is higher or lower than the hotel industry's, which in the U.S. alone has thousands of fires and double-digit deaths each year.

    7. Re:The old struggling to fight off the new by lucm · · Score: 2

      Yes, the same thing should happen with banks, insurance companies, childcare and hospitals. Let's get the government regulations out of the way and rely on Yelp reviews and Facebook likes. FREE MARKET!

      --
      lucm, indeed.
    8. Re:The old struggling to fight off the new by geoskd · · Score: 2

      How would an immediately available customer rating know if the carpets were fire retardant or not? That all the electrical items were tagged and tested regularly?

      In a free standing apartment, two, or even a four unit building, there simply is not the danger from fire that exists in a large hotel. even in a 5000 square foot house, you are never more than a short sprint from an exit. Hotels on the other hand, you could often be a long hallways from safety, with scores of other people competing with you for limited evacuation routes. When a house burns down, it is pretty rare for there to be an actual fatality from the fire or smoke. Burns and ailments yes, fatalities, not that much. With Hotel fires, there is a lot more potential for death, especially in multistory buildings. All in all, you're safer staying at an ancient run down bed and breakfast where the whole place is wired with lamp cord, and the carpets are made out of a combination of jet fuel and matches, than you are on the 30th floor of a high rise hotel...

      --
      I wish I had a good sig, but all the good ones are copyrighted
    9. Re:The old struggling to fight off the new by geoskd · · Score: 1

      Safety and building standards are obsolete; lets repeal them so anyone can build whatever structure they wish on their property and rent it out.

      ??? What the hell does that have to do with regulating and taxing hotels? Building standards apply to both types of buildings, and should continue to apply. Apartments for rent are held to a higher standard than owner occupied properties, and in most places you have to maintain a certificate of occupancy on any rental property. This is not being disputed.

      Minimum wage laws, insurance requirements and background checks on cab drivers are obsolete, so lets get rid of them.

      Wow, you went off the reservation on that one. Those things have nothing to do with the discussion at hand. If you're implying that by eliminating one useless bit of regulation, then all regulation is bad, then you are either a blithering idiot, or are trying to put words in someone else's mouth. Either way, your arguments are entirely without merit.

      In an era where terrorists rent trucks and use them as weapons of mass destruction to mow down crowds of helpless people, assault weapons bans and laws banning sale of munitions such as TOW missiles are outdated and should be repealed. Think about how many people would have been saved in Nice if one or more frenchmen had TOW missiles in hand.

      I thought your last paragraph was out there. This takes the cake! Are you trying to imply that people who rent rooms on airbnb are terrorists? or are you suggesting that a terrorist is planning some nefarious plot where access to airbnb rooms is somehow central to their ability to perpetrate and attack? Either way, any attempt to relate the two concepts is laughable at best.

      You might want to try having someone else proof read your posts for sanity before hitting the submit button next time. Trying to follow any semblance of a thought process in your post is like looking for reason at a political debate: it might be there somewhere, but who has time to sift through all the crap to find it.

      --
      I wish I had a good sig, but all the good ones are copyrighted
    10. Re:The old struggling to fight off the new by geoskd · · Score: 1

      A simple example is hotels are held to a much higher standard for fire safety.

      No, buildings of that size and occupancy levels are held to that higher standard. It could be an office building, and the building codes have the same requirements given the same envelope of building. A hotel that consists of hundreds of single room free standing structures are not required to have sprinklers, fire block stairway exits, etc... All of those kinds of requirements are specific to the size and layout of the building to ensure escape paths, and fire warning, etc. Small free standing structures simply do not present the same hazards in that regard, so those things are not required.

      --
      I wish I had a good sig, but all the good ones are copyrighted
    11. Re:The old struggling to fight off the new by geoskd · · Score: 1

      How would an immediately available customer rating know if the carpets were fire retardant or not?

      It wouldn't. The building inspector would know, and were talking about eliminating hotel taxes and hotel specific regulations, not building codes. Fire safety regulations are not specific to hotels, but are required by the building department in regards to buildings of a certain size and type.

      To elaborate, hotels are not required to have sprinklers because they are hotels, they are required to have them if the building is of a large enough size and meets certain criteria. A building of that size and type would require sprinklers, even if it were an office building, or some other kind of building with a high density of persons at any given time. Conversely, a free standing motel where every room has individual exits to the outdoors are not typically required to have sprinklers because the building type does not present the same fire hazard. Again that would be the case if it were a motel or not, and would be the purview of the building department.

      --
      I wish I had a good sig, but all the good ones are copyrighted
    12. Re:The old struggling to fight off the new by Harlequin80 · · Score: 1

      There may be a greater potential for death, because you have more people concentrated, but your regulation and fire requirements work to prevent that. For example it doesn't matter how short the sprint is if the only exit is on fire. Lots of people put bars on their home windows that cannot be opened from the inside. This is the sort of thing that wouldn't be allowed in public accommodation.

      I'm not in the US so I'm commenting on my own local regulations. But if you are a B&B for example, you are required to have a smoke detector in every room where someone sleeps, in all stair wells, and keep a fire extinguisher & fire blanket in all kitchen spaces. These are not requirements on private dwellings.

      And as for rare or infrequent fatalities we clearly have very very different definitions of rare.... https://www.usfa.fema.gov/data... Gives 2013 total fires at 1,240,000, fatalities at 3240 and injuries at 15,925.

         

    13. Re:The old struggling to fight off the new by Harlequin80 · · Score: 1

      You know people die from food poisoning right? It's not just a case of getting the shits and puking. This is why you have a food safety board and health inspectors that check restaurants. But I suppose a review after the funeral is ok, right?

      Direct from CDC..... CDC estimates that each year roughly 1 in 6 Americans (or 48 million people) get sick, 128,000 are hospitalized, and 3,000 die of foodborne diseases.

    14. Re:The old struggling to fight off the new by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      If "fairness" is a concern, the hotels should be left alone â" and unregulated â" too.

      I'm not normally one to drink the "regulation is bad" coolaid

      But you won't let that stop you from doing so - right from the envelope without even diluting it with water first as per the instructions.
       

      in this case, the regulation serves a function that has been deprecated by the new instant availability of information.

      Oh? How exactly does does the 'new instant availability of information' replace regular and routine inspection of the premises to ensure that they are maintained to code and within regulations?
       

      all of the hotels near where I live sit mostly empty most of the time.

      Either they don't actually sit empty most of the time (and you're as clueless about that as everything else), or there's something funny going on - hotels that sit 'mostly' empty 'most of the time' are on a fast track to bankruptcy.
       

      They can afford that business model because most of their costs come from actually renting the room (aka taxes contingent upon occupancy).

        Some of their costs (and there's much more to it than occupancy taxes) - and all of their income. Which means to not go broke, they need to regularly rent out a significant portion of their rooms.

    15. Re:The old struggling to fight off the new by mi · · Score: 1

      Horseshit.

      This is incorrect.

      Presuming the ratings are honest - which I do not trust them to be.

      You, then, have my permission to stay at the hotels certified by the loving, caring, and benevolent officials of the local government. The government, over which you — a visitor from afar — have no control whatsoever.

      I'll take my chances with AirBNB or someone like them, whose business model is based on the integrity of the ratings (similar to Uber and, to a large extent, Amazon).

      Ah, you'll say, but my way is killing your way! Yes, I agree — which means simply, that your way does not have enough adherents to make sense.

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    16. Re:The old struggling to fight off the new by Harlequin80 · · Score: 2

      Impossible to compare AirBNB stats as the information is completely unavailable.

      However there were 1.24 million building fires in the US in 2013. Which claimed the lives of 3240 people. Of those fires 7700 were in high rise buildings. Those high rise fires contributed 27 deaths. That gives you a fatality chance per fire of .35% in a high rise and .26% in all fires. So this is a relatively low difference. This low difference comes about because high rise and high density buildings have stricter fire codes even though a single fire in a high rise is a much riskier event.

      This is further helped by the fact that 50% of low rise hotels that suffered a fire event between 2007 & 2011 had full wet pipe sprinkler systems. This compares to just 17% of low rise apartments, the sort of thing airbnb will do the most of.

      So at the moment airbnb is still a relatively small player in a per stay measurement, however as it increases it is likely to see more people staying in buildings with lower standards of fire prevention. This inevitably will lead to an increase in fire deaths.

    17. Re:The old struggling to fight off the new by Harlequin80 · · Score: 1

      Your fire regs are different to ours then as there are differences here based on what the building is to be used for and not just its size.

    18. Re:The old struggling to fight off the new by Ly4 · · Score: 1

      A big difference between fire code handling for public accommodations like hotels and the handling for private residences is the frequency of inspections. Hotels are inspected at regular intervals, like annually. Most homes are only inspected after they are built or after major renovations.

      That gap leaves a lot of opportunity for someone to do something stupid, like letting the batteries in the smoke detectors die, blocking doors, making windows impossible to open, etc.

    19. Re:The old struggling to fight off the new by mi · · Score: 1

      CDC estimates that each year roughly 1 in 6 Americans (or 48 million people) get sick, 128,000 are hospitalized, and 3,000 die of foodborne diseases.

      And this happens despite all the efforts to monitor food supply and food-preparing establishments by the government.

      You now need to demonstrate, that it happens more often in places like AirBNB apartments (the tiny minority of them, that may be offering the "breakfast" part of the BnB).

      But that's all besides the point — people wishing to stay only in the government-vetted places can continue to do so. The very article, however, seems to suggest, there aren't enough such people. For whatever reason, consumers prefer taking their risks in exchange for (much) lower prices. And any attempts to force them into paying for "better" service is dictatorial and tyrannical.

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    20. Re:The old struggling to fight off the new by mi · · Score: 1

      Let's get the government regulations out of the way

      You got it!

      and rely on Yelp reviews and Facebook likes

      The reviewing and certification agencies will themselves compete with each other. Some people may prefer Yelp, others — Consumer Reports, or Angie's List, or Good Housekeeping, or whoever else decides to enter this market.

      If there is demand for certification, there will be supply. And if there is not, then the rent-seeking bureaucrats should not exist.

      There may still be work to do in insurance and banking, but in local transportation and temporary residence markets the problem is solved.

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    21. Re:The old struggling to fight off the new by Harlequin80 · · Score: 1

      No I don't need to prove that the risk is higher. You need to prove that the risk is the same or lower. You are the one advocating for the change not me.

      People have always always always picked the cheapest option. They pick the cheapest option even though it is demonstrably less in their favour. What's more is people will choose an option that is significantly more expensive even if it only appears cheaper at the first glance.

      Regulations came in to existence to address a problem. That regulation may have gone to far but that doesn't change the fact that there was a problem and so regulation came into being.

      Currently you have a regulated industry which, on face value, the airbnb service needs to compete with. But they aren't competing on a level playing field so the regulated part of the market will collapse. This will inevitably lead to a race to the bottom, in terms of quality and in price. This happens every time in every industry. Without the regulated industry to set a level of service we will move back to the original situation which caused the creation of the regulations in the first place.

    22. Re:The old struggling to fight off the new by Harlequin80 · · Score: 1

      You come up with "worse than useless" when the regulations make an inherently more dangerous structure have outcomes that are almost identical to the wider population?

      Seriously, think that through. Prior to regulations high rise fires killed LOADS of people. There are lists of hotel fires that killed more than 10 people because these are deemed to be historically significant and yet there is only 1 in the last 30 years! And it was a deliberate arson for which the perp is serving multiple life sentences.

      I'm not arguing that high rises are as safe fire wise as a standard suburban home, they aren't. But regulation of high rises has resulting in there being only nominal difference in their safety. If that isn't an example of regulation doing what it was meant to I don't know what is.

      And I didn't bother looking for airbnb specific fires. Because there is no reason to. Given airbnb doesn't require any additional regulation then best case scenario is that it will have a fire rate the same as the wider building population. You can argue factors each way for higher or lower risk. But the sample size is too small and their duration of operation is too small to have a meaningful comparison.

    23. Re:The old struggling to fight off the new by SydShamino · · Score: 1

      And come on -- given how much publicity there was over the dude who was killed by the falling tree branch/tire swing, how many deaths from fire at an Airbnb property do you really think could sneak under the radar? That's why I challenged you to simply find one.

      The reason that one incident got so much publicity was because the family of the victim was able to recover "sufficient" renumeration from the insurance company of the property owners. They never signed any agreements with AirBnB.

      The articles about that death covered the fact that AirBnB sweeps in with cash in exchange for confidentiality in the event of mishap, effectively hiding most deaths' associations with AirBnB.

      --
      It doesn't hurt to be nice.
    24. Re: The old struggling to fight off the new by mrscorpio · · Score: 1

      The telecom industry of the past 30 years provides a dissenting view.

    25. Re:The old struggling to fight off the new by Porbes · · Score: 1

      Yelp won't tell you whether the room you're considering is safe in a fire or toxic though. Regulation still serves a very important purpose.

    26. Re:The old struggling to fight off the new by Dog-Cow · · Score: 1

      You are replying to the kind of person who believes that Y2K wasn't an issue because nothing happened. Only because companies payed millions of dollars to thousands of contractors and employees to make sure it would be a non-event, of course.

    27. Re:The old struggling to fight off the new by dywolf · · Score: 1

      Horseshit.

      This is incorrect.

      Not where your posts are concerned.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    28. Re:The old struggling to fight off the new by Wrath0fb0b · · Score: 1

      Yes, the same thing should happen with banks, insurance companies, childcare and hospitals. Let's get the government regulations out of the way and rely on Yelp reviews and Facebook likes. FREE MARKET!

      Because clearly if person ever expresses the opinion that one particular regulation or set of regulations should be repealed, that person is forever committed to arguing that every single one should be repealed. And conversely, if one ever argues that a regulation has positive worth, they are permanently banned from arguing against any other. Analyzing each regulation independently and concluding that (like many other things) some are useful and some aren't (and a few really perverse ones are downright counterproductive) should definitely not be allowed.

    29. Re:The old struggling to fight off the new by SlaveToTheGrind · · Score: 1

      Seriously, think that through. Prior to regulations high rise fires killed LOADS of people.

      Prior to [the past several decades], individual house fires killed LOADS of people too -- hopefully we can at least agree on that. And United States fire deaths have decreased dramatically over the past several decades. So in an intellectually honest universe, there are a number of confounding factors you would have to work through before simply declaring that hotel "regulations" (whatever those might be) are responsible for an allegedly significant decrease (that you have yet to quantify) in hotel deaths. Say, the significant decrease in smoking rates. Or significant improvements in fire-retardant materials. But at this point I'm guessing intellectual honesty is not the order of the day here.

      And I didn't bother looking for airbnb specific fires. Because there is no reason to. Given airbnb doesn't require any additional regulation then best case scenario is that it will have a fire rate the same as the wider building population.

      So instead of looking at the actual data to determine whether your hypothesis just might be incorrect, you're declaring the actual data doesn't matter (and even better, that you know what it would be if you did look) because you're taking your hypothesis as a given. Wow. Just wow.

    30. Re:The old struggling to fight off the new by SlaveToTheGrind · · Score: 1

      Putting aside your embarrassingly wrong pop psychology evaluation, ponder this: In your haste to smugness, you're actually taking the side of someone who believes Airbnb is more dangerous than hotels despite zero evidence to that effect.

    31. Re:The old struggling to fight off the new by SlaveToTheGrind · · Score: 1

      The articles about that death covered the fact that AirBnB sweeps in with cash in exchange for confidentiality in the event of mishap, effectively hiding most deaths' associations with AirBnB.

      Yes yes, I know -- just like the 300mpg carburetor that everyone could have had decades ago had the evil auto industry not suppressed it. (Here, the claim actually consumes itself: if there really were all these incidents and they really were cloaked with a confidentiality blanket such that there's no way to verify who and how many there are, then the journalists that claim to know this are either relying on inherently unreliable sources or outright lying.)

      But bigger picture: People sue big companies all the time these days over much less than this, and sometimes it's not about the money as much as it is simply to be vindicated -- to tell your story to the world and have a jury of your peers agree that you were wronged. Conspiracy theories aside, it would be unlikely (to say the least) if at least some of the survivors wouldn't choose to take that route.

    32. Re:The old struggling to fight off the new by lucm · · Score: 1

      Sorry I don't get your logic but bottom line, there's no "technology" involved in the uber/airbnb disruption, there's been similar apps from a customer and provider perspectives for years. The only innovation here is de facto deregulation - to ignore the systems in place and to transfer 100% of the risk to the customers and smaller service providers, while taking a cut in the process.

      I could create an app tomorrow that lets people who want a kid get in touch with people who can't keep their kid for some reason, and let them have their own adoption deal. That's the same business model.

      --
      lucm, indeed.
    33. Re:The old struggling to fight off the new by b0bby · · Score: 1

      Presuming the ratings are honest - which I do not trust them to be. Customers have no interest in honest ratings, and can be penalized for them if they cast aspersions on the service. The rental agency itself has no incentive to be scrupulously honest because they don't want to piss off too many providers.

      With AirBnB, you don't get to see the other guys' review until you have posted your own. So there's no fear of tit-for-tat retaliation, and most of the reviews should be pretty honest.

    34. Re:The old struggling to fight off the new by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      With AirBnB, you don't get to see the other guys' review until you have posted your own. So there's no fear of tit-for-tat retaliation, and most of the reviews should be pretty honest.

      "Most" should be "pretty" honest? You neatly illustrate precisely why the system should be mistrusted.

    35. Re:The old struggling to fight off the new by b0bby · · Score: 1

      I trust them as much as I trust hotel reviews (or hotel employees) - I take most things with a pinch of salt.

    36. Re:The old struggling to fight off the new by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      True. And again, you neatly illustrate my original point - if you can't trust those [AirBNB] reviews, then they aren't a replacement for government regulation and inspection.

  12. Re:Can't let the money fall into the wrong hands! by GuB-42 · · Score: 1

    I don't know the situation in the US but landlords are not all 1-percenters. A lot of them are just "little people" investing.
    OTOH the guy subletting apartments to AirBnB may very well end up in the 1% : $3500 per month per apartment is a lot.

  13. economics by m2943 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The reason housing prices are high and there is a housing shortage in desirable areas are simple: government keeps pushing up demand for housing in such areas through various housing subsidies (low income rent programs, Section 8, government support of mortgages), while at the same time discouraging the creation of new supply through price controls (rent control, affordable housing unit requirements, special taxes on developers) and regulations (zoning, usage restrictions, etc.).

    I know, dear Elizabeth, you're just a greedy lawyer and a rabble rousing politician, but please, learn some basic economics: you and people like you are responsible for the housing shortage. And restricting the ability of people to rent out their places for short periods, as on AirBnB, will make the housing shortage worse. In fact, the reason AirBnB is likely so popular in the first place is because AirBnB hosts don't have to deal with all the other rental regulation bullshit people like you have created; in a free housing market, AirBnB would be much less attractive, since landlords could get similar income without all the risk associated with an unpredictable succession of short term renters. So, if you restrict AirBnB rentals, people will probably either leave their apartments empty, or they will convert them into expensive luxury condos. See, Elizabeth, you can certainly stop people from engaging in some economic transactions by wielding your big senatorial stick, but you cannot force them to engage in economic transactions against their will.

    1. Re:economics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      > discouraging the creation of new supply

      The new supply is almost always more expensive which drives prices up even farther. That is why supply side solutions don't work. Trickle down economics was proven wrong thirty years ago.

    2. Re: economics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      And even worse, Republicans believe supply and demand applies to housing.

    3. Re:economics by Wrath0fb0b · · Score: 1

      At least in SF, my impression is that new supply is expensive which drives up the average price but suppresses the increase in prices for other units by soaking up high-end demand that would otherwise chase other units.

      And that's the rub -- it's better to have two $5K condos and 10 $3K flats than to just have the 10 flats. In that case, the would-be-condo owners will just bid up the flats, pushing out whoever was in that segment. And those folks will bid up the next tier and so forth.

      Or do you think that rich people that want to live in SF will look at the unavailability of high-end real estate and think "Oh well, nothing but cheaper units here, I'll pass" or will they buy up those properties and renovate them up?

    4. Re:economics by Trickster+Paean · · Score: 1

      You are wrong about the reason housing prices are high, especially in cities like Los Angeles and San Francisco. While you understand the basics somewhat, you misunderstand how they are applied, and how they apply specifically to the economics of the housing market.

      Housing prices are high because demand outstrips supply. That's the bottom line. There are arguments about why demand outstrips supply, but the largest reasons in California have to do with land use regulations which limit density.

      Government can do little to push up demand for housing in those areas - demand for housing is driven by larger factors - the strength of the overall economy, the number of jobs in the area, and by the factors such as the geographic niceness of an area. Rental prices in Los Angeles dropped precipitously through the Great Recession, through 2010, largely because demand dropped.

      Housing subsidies do little to push up demand. It can slightly prop up the price level, but low income housing subsidies do not create demand where there isn't any. Government support of mortgages through the mortgage interest tax deduction acts as an implicit housing subsidy for home buyers, but this benefits those living in high-cost, high-income areas the most, since they have larger mortgages and pay more interest. It actually acts as a net demand reducer for housing in urban areas, because there are fewer houses available for purchase, but it does little to affect overall demand for housing.

      Rent control does little to discourage the creation of new supply. In California, for example, new housing is largely exempt from the rent control ordinances until the buildings are 30 years old. Once a unit is vacated, except for a few situations, landlords can rent it out at market rate. Rent control as practiced in California does nothing to discourage the creation of new housing supply.

      Affordable housing unit requirements and taxes on developers can increase the overall price of a development, and reduce the profits available to the developers, but overall, that acts as more of a wealth transfer than anything else. When it causes any sort of effect, it causes it only on the margins. A profitable real estate development will remain profitable even with affordable housing unit requirements.

      Zoning and usage restrictions, and other land use regulations do more than anything else to reduce supply. And during my time working real estate deals in California, it is the height restrictions and the NIMBYism that do more than anything to reduce the creation of new supply. Unthinking opposition to increased density is by far the hardest problem to overcome, and it is people who live there who don't want their neighborhoods to change that are the largest impediment to solving the housing crises in San Francisco and Los Angeles.

      That's what it comes down to, at least in California. And restricting the ability of people to list rental housing on AirBnB does nothing to make the housing shortage worse. What it does is reduce the number of people who have been evicted illegally to rent out these places on AirBnB, it keeps a small number of housing units on the market, and it prevents disruptions in the lives of the people who live in those locations. That has been the experience in Los Angeles and San Francisco - greedy landlords illegally evicting people to try to get more money through AirBnB. These are short term profiteers who have no regard for the long-term consequences of their actions.

      AirBnB is adding to the problems created when you have a rental housing market with over 99% occupancy. That's the tipping point where renters cease having economic power versus landlords. Those are the markets where AirBnB is facing additional regulation. And if AirBnB wants to keep playing in those markets, it will play ball with these cities. I don't think there's any specific objection to allowing short-term rentals, but the way AirBnB has affected the housing market in those areas has been almost entirely negative. Politicians will listen to the people who elect them, to their constituents, and do something. The antipathy to AirBnB comes from the fact that it allows, encourages, and profits from people acting illegally in those areas.

    5. Re:economics by Trickster+Paean · · Score: 1

      The new supply is almost always more expensive which drives prices up even farther.

      That's utterly idiotic; creating new supply, of course, drives down prices, not up.

      Don't be idiotic yourself: creating new supply doesn't always drive down prices. When demand is high, and supply is low, an increase in supply may not decrease the price at all.

      I'm not endorsing the above comment, new supply in the housing market, even high end supply, generally does lower the overall price level in real terms. But in nominal terms, you can sometimes see prices continue to increase as new supply comes onto the market, simply because demand continues to remain high.

  14. uber all over again... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    uber is a fake taxi, avoids taxes, and avoids regulations and requirements designed to protect the public.

    airbnb is a fake hotel, avoids taxes, and avoids regulations and requirements designed to protect the public

    1. Re:uber all over again... by houghi · · Score: 2

      I am going to start 'Bee-R4u' and deliver beers and spirits to minors. But as I am not a restaurant or any other of the sort of companies that is restricted by age, I should be ok.

      Mmm. I am not selling beer, I am renting out closed cans and bottles. However when they open them, they can not be returned anymore. Closed cans can be returned for a small fee.

      As the sending is so people can look at how these things are fabricated AND I direct my business at minors, I think I should be getting money for the education I provide from the different states as well.

      I do all this to protect the public and keep education as cheap as possible. You are welcome.

      Just as an aside, I live near the AB InBev HQ, so I am sure I can at least find 1 company interested and it also means that I do not live in the USofA, so I do not have to follow the laws anyway, right?

      I just should not click on submit so others can't steal my idea. Damn, I am smart.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    2. Re:uber all over again... by SonicSpike · · Score: 1

      Government regulations, permits, and licenses are not needed to keep people safe. The free market works just fine on its own (how many instances of people getting hurt with Uber or AirBnB exist? very few)

      --
      Libertas in infinitum
  15. Re:Can't let the money fall into the wrong hands! by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

    I'd say that if you own more than one property you're already a medium person.

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  16. Simon says no by RubberDogBone · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The cities and towns who want to regulate this and Uber and the like are doing so not because there is some sort of crisis or need for regulation. By their own admission, they do not have control over it now and yet there are very few reports of problems, which strongly suggests there aren't many issues.

    No, they don't want to solve anything. They're just mad that somebody is doing something without asking permission and paying for licenses and other crap. An awful lot of government is devoted to making people ask for permission to do things and making them pay fees to get that permission.

    If people realize they can do things just fine without permits, then all hell will break loose of people doing stuff on their own for free! How can bloated bureaucratic governments survive and justify their own existence if people just DO stuff?

    --
    Sig for hire.
    1. Re:Simon says no by jittles · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The cities and towns who want to regulate this and Uber and the like are doing so not because there is some sort of crisis or need for regulation. By their own admission, they do not have control over it now and yet there are very few reports of problems, which strongly suggests there aren't many issues.

      No, they don't want to solve anything. They're just mad that somebody is doing something without asking permission and paying for licenses and other crap. An awful lot of government is devoted to making people ask for permission to do things and making them pay fees to get that permission.

      If people realize they can do things just fine without permits, then all hell will break loose of people doing stuff on their own for free! How can bloated bureaucratic governments survive and justify their own existence if people just DO stuff?

      You're right. There's absolutely no need for permits to do things like electrical wiring. And no reason whatsoever to mandate that property owners have smoke alarms and fire extinguishers on their properties. Nothing has ever gone wrong in the past, all of these rules and regulations just came to be out of thin air because some bureaucrat thought it would be a great way to make money.

    2. Re:Simon says no by guruevi · · Score: 1

      You obviously never applied nor got inspected for said licenses. They are just taxes on renovations. I've had 6 permits in the last 2 years, 2 electrical ones, 1 for a repair and 1 for a renovation. The licensing office requires you to have a building permit for the renovation, a building permit for fire sprinkler system, a water permit to connect the backflow preventer for said fire sprinkler system to the pipes, a sewage permit to make sure you don't connect the drain for said fire sprinkler system directly to the sewage, a fire marshal inspection, an electrical permit for the electric. Each permit is ~$120.

      The inspections are a joke, I did the work all myself which is permitted as the homeowner, half the inspectors asked me why they were there, They never heard of anyone doing a fire sprinkler system so especially the water and sewage inspector were wondering why they were there, then I had to point it out and they said: well, for residential fire sprinkler we can't test the system, you pass. All inspectors spent 5m looking around and say "looks good" on both rough and finish inspections, didn't even have to show the entire renovation. They do require you to submit plans for ~3 months and then hound each inspector for 3 days to show up and the building inspector I've been calling for 3 weeks now.

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    3. Re:Simon says no by jittles · · Score: 2

      You obviously never applied nor got inspected for said licenses. They are just taxes on renovations. I've had 6 permits in the last 2 years, 2 electrical ones, 1 for a repair and 1 for a renovation. The licensing office requires you to have a building permit for the renovation, a building permit for fire sprinkler system, a water permit to connect the backflow preventer for said fire sprinkler system to the pipes, a sewage permit to make sure you don't connect the drain for said fire sprinkler system directly to the sewage, a fire marshal inspection, an electrical permit for the electric. Each permit is ~$120.

      The inspections are a joke, I did the work all myself which is permitted as the homeowner, half the inspectors asked me why they were there, They never heard of anyone doing a fire sprinkler system so especially the water and sewage inspector were wondering why they were there, then I had to point it out and they said: well, for residential fire sprinkler we can't test the system, you pass. All inspectors spent 5m looking around and say "looks good" on both rough and finish inspections, didn't even have to show the entire renovation. They do require you to submit plans for ~3 months and then hound each inspector for 3 days to show up and the building inspector I've been calling for 3 weeks now.

      You have electrical permits because working with electricity can cause fires and death. You have a sewage permit to make sure that you're not making a change to the line that would cause sewage to spill into the ground. A water permit to make sure that you're not going to cause a water problem for yourself and all your neighbors. A building permit to make sure that you do all of the structural modifications according to code. I've had to get permits to do work before, I know how the process works. When it came time for my inspections the inspectors came by (without being hassled) at the time that I scheduled with them. It took 5 minutes to schedule the inspections. And yes, the inspections only took a few minutes because the first thing the inspectors did was ask me what I did to ensure the work was up to code. Explaining that would take only a couple of minutes. Then the inspector would spend 2 minutes looking to see if I did things exactly the way that I had described. If I had described a situation that sounded dangerous, I have no doubt that the inspector would have been far more thorough. The fact is that the permitting process exists for two reasons: 1) people try to violate the zoning regulations of their community 2) bad contractors and unskilled homeowners do work that is not only dangerous to themselves, but dangerous to future buyers of the property who may not know that shoddy work was done to begin with. If you want the wild wild west that you describe, go back to any time before like 1940 and see just how many people died due to poor workmanship. Especially children in factories.

    4. Re:Simon says no by gregersonke · · Score: 1

      I can't really see a city like san francisco being all about the money in this case. It's really all about following the rules that everyone else does. If you airBNB your place you increase stress on city services, traffic, parking, sewer, Police, fire, etc. You also run the risk of safety violations and you are basically increasing the rent pricing of which the city has very specific rent control over. Which if you took advantage of the rent controlled apartments in the city you could technically make a killing on those apartments through AIRBNB. Those rent controls are there to help low income households live in the city they wouldn't be able to otherwise or continue to live in a home they've rented for 30 years etc. keeping people a part of the community rather than ripping it apart.

    5. Re:Simon says no by swb · · Score: 1

      Are AirBnB rentals going into places that already meet occupancy codes or are they going into permitless new construction?

      I would imagine there's a percentage of people willing to rent the cheapest room, which may be a newly converted attic space, which if done to poor standards by a homeowner might be some risk, although it would also be a risk to the homeowner, too, which would seem to mitigate some risk as the homeowner doesn't want to die in a fire, either.

      If the majority are going into existing dwelling spaces which already generally meet occupancy codes, where's the construction code risk?

      I would imagine the high risk spaces with shoddy construction would get downvoted by potential renters anyway, as if the electrical is so poor as to be a major fire risk, then the rest of its likely to be seriously substandard as well.

    6. Re:Simon says no by jittles · · Score: 1

      Are AirBnB rentals going into places that already meet occupancy codes or are they going into permitless new construction?

      I would imagine there's a percentage of people willing to rent the cheapest room, which may be a newly converted attic space, which if done to poor standards by a homeowner might be some risk, although it would also be a risk to the homeowner, too, which would seem to mitigate some risk as the homeowner doesn't want to die in a fire, either.

      If the majority are going into existing dwelling spaces which already generally meet occupancy codes, where's the construction code risk?

      I would imagine the high risk spaces with shoddy construction would get downvoted by potential renters anyway, as if the electrical is so poor as to be a major fire risk, then the rest of its likely to be seriously substandard as well.

      There may be different occupancy codes for short term or long term rentals. I believe, but am not positive, that some states require short term rentals to have on-site secure storage in the form of either an in-room safe or a safe at the front desk. I could be wrong, however.

  17. AirBnB is a criminal organization! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Just like a number of other "sharing" companies! What really galls me is that law makers stand around like deer in headlights. Arrest and JAIL the senior executives, investors, and board members of these "sharing" companies- where the ONLY sharing that goes on is the obscene profits made by the foregoing groups! Scumbags!

  18. Re:Landlords by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Shit like that is part of the problem, people aren't involved in their community and everyone's too busy chasing the almighty dollar. Maybe cities should start cracking down on absentee landlords instead of Airbnb. Keep property ownership local.

  19. New ways to cause old problems by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    This is definitely one of those cases where technology has rendered moot the underlying reality that forced the need for regulation in the first place.

    I disagree, technology is simply providing a new way for people to evade the laws and recreate the same problems that -- long ago -- caused the laws to be created.

    Now, there is some virtue to "shaking things up", but the underlying issues here are not actually computational at all, they are issues about monetary-incentives, damage and accountability, and various tragedies of the commons.

  20. Re:Can't let the money fall into the wrong hands! by Alypius · · Score: 1

    Except for the part where Portland is going after a guy for renting out a room, yes.

  21. A couple weeks a year is ok by Snotnose · · Score: 1

    I just have a problem with those people who rent their place 52 weeks a year. IMHO, 2-3 weeks a year is making extra money without causing problems. Renting 52 weeks a year is causing problems in the neighborhood without doing due diligence, paying license fees, and pissing your neighbors off.

  22. Re:Can't let the money fall into the wrong hands! by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

    The free market is the base natural state of any economy. Control, legislate, regulate all you want, but the free market interprets socialism as damage and routes around it.

  23. Re:Fines are stupid: we just need to build more ho by Dutchmaan · · Score: 1

    I hear homes made by non regulated builders are AMAZING places to live... Welcome to the world of "We got your money...sucks for you if it's shoddy construction and starts falling apart after 5 years!"

  24. Re:Can't let the money fall into the wrong hands! by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

    Neither do neighbors who chose to buy and rent in a residential district and partake in the benefits thereof, including a reasonably slow-changing population of neighbors.

    Then they can live in a community with an HOA that prohibits transient rentals. Otherwise, they have no right to be telling me what I can do with my property.

  25. Re:Can't let the money fall into the wrong hands! by jmcvetta · · Score: 1

    Yet they have enough money to gas up their SUV and drive to Starbucks everyday.

    In my city:

    Cost of a Starbucks latte: about $4
    Cost of a gallon of gasoline: about $4
    Cost of modest-sized house: about $4,000,000

  26. What's the fuss? by WinstonWolfIT · · Score: 1

    How is any different than renting out a beach house?

    1. Re:What's the fuss? by jtara · · Score: 1

      The fuss is that many/most of these rentals are in formally-quiet residential neighborhoods.

      I just moved from a place where the neighbor across the street frequently AirBNBs. One weekend, quiet Japanese tourists. Next weekend, college kids from Arizona whooping it up and getting into fights. And ALWAYS Uber drivers honking, alcohol-serving limo-busses making a bad problem worse, etc. etc. etc.

      This is expected - to some degree, at least - in a beach area, hotel district, etc. (But the hotels, at least, have professional staff to keep things capped to whatever is acceptable for the area.)

  27. Re:But, why is this bad? by jonwil · · Score: 1

    Its all well and good to say "but someone will build more supply" and that may be true in some cities but its not always possible. But try building any kind of housing anywhere near San Fransisco for example.

  28. Re:Landlords by slashrio · · Score: 1

    Why would it be not allowed? Think of the economic stimulus. If there's a lack of housing then new houses will be built!
    And the safety argument is a bit false. All those safety measures have been instated because of the many people that can be housed--and get killed by a fire--in a skyscraper hotel, not a family home...

    --
    "Trump!!", the new Godwin.
  29. Re:Landlords by slashrio · · Score: 2

    Maybe there is no problem at all. Except for the big hotel owners who now encounter some competition.

    --
    "Trump!!", the new Godwin.
  30. prefer airbnb to exist by jemmyw · · Score: 1

    As someone who rents I dislike the idea of AirBnB pushing up prices. But as someone who travels AirBnB has been the best thing in years. Hotels are fine if you're on your own, but I usually travel with my family. Staying in a slightly run down home is way better than a very nice hotel or holiday home when your kids are going to run around in it. Not to mention seeing into other peoples lives and houses.

    I travelled around the US with my family and our 3 cats. I know some hotels let you have pets, but the limit is usually 2 and they don't like cats. Didn't have trouble finding places on AirBnB usually within a 4 hour drive of one another. I know that it would be possible before AirBnB existed, but would have required a lot more planning, and our trip was entirely unplanned.

  31. Not even a nice try, complete fail. by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

    Horseshit.

    This is incorrect.

    Oh? Then how come you are completely unable to refute a single one of my points? You didn't even try. (You need not answer, because I know the answer - you can't.)
     

    You, then, have my permission to stay at the hotels certified by the loving, caring, and benevolent officials of the local government. The government, over which you â" a visitor from afar â" have no control whatsoever.

    Nor do I need any control, because it's in the goverment's interest to maintain standards. Quite the opposite for AirBNB, which has every reason not to be too honest.
     

    I'll take my chances with AirBNB or someone like them, whose business model is based on the integrity of the ratings (similar to Uber and, to a large extent, Amazon).

    That's the difference between you and me - I have no need to take a chance. (And given how riddled with fail Amazon's reviews are, how stupid do you have to be to even bring them up?)

  32. Re:Can't let the money fall into the wrong hands! by jmcvetta · · Score: 2

    So if you can't afford to buy a house in one of the most expensive real estate markets in the world, then there is just no point in investing at all?

    Your words, not mine.

    I have relatives nearing retirement with $0 in IRA/401k, living in a trailer park, who think exactly the same way. But they can always find the money to go to Starbucks and buy the latest iPhone.

    Good to know you're much far more clever and deserving than those feckless trailer-dwelling proles.

  33. Reviews solve everything by lucm · · Score: 1

    Sounds like a plan. Of course next time you book wirh Airbnb and the "palace with ocean view" turns out to be a shithole and the hosts asks for an extra $200 cash, I'm sure your reviews on Angie's List will help righting that wrong, since bad reviews on Airbnb are bad for business and usually fade in the digital void. You could also put up a Facebook page or post a rant on Craigslist.

    There's been great success stories with deregulation and the free market, such as energy (Enron), investment banking (Lehman Brothers and others), airlines and more. All big wins for customers - except of course all those people who lost their 401(k) or their house or who had to pay obscene power bills or had to wait for hours in suffocating planes parked on the runways, but I guess those morons simply forgot to check Yelp and Angie's List.

    --
    lucm, indeed.
    1. Re:Reviews solve everything by mi · · Score: 1

      Of course next time you book wirh Airbnb and the "palace with ocean view" turns out to be a shithole and the hosts asks for an extra $200 cash

      If this ever actually happened, you'd have included a link... But, hey, it could — and the "real" hotel you booked may also disappoint and overcharge. No obvious differences on this front — except it is easier for you to warn others via Yelp, AirBNB's feedback and similar channels, than trying to complain to a local government official.

      There's been great success stories with deregulation and the free market, such as energy (Enron), investment banking (Lehman Brothers and others), airlines and more.

      The cases you are alluding to have nothing to do with the actual deregulation itself.

      All big wins for customers - except of course all those people who lost their 401(k)

      Putting all of your retirement money into one stock is stupid. No one else has suffered a loss of their 401(k).

      or who had to pay obscene power bills

      California screwed up privatization. This does not mean, the goal itself was wrong.

      wait for hours in suffocating planes parked on the runways

      This happens because of government regulations. The planes can not easily return to the gate — often due to "arcane regulations". It is happening now — you aren't showing, how deregulation would make it worse.

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    2. Re:Reviews solve everything by lucm · · Score: 1

      If this ever actually happened, you'd have included a link

      Are you kidding? Just google "airbnb horror stories", even the huffington post has an article about this.

      And there's a website full of those too: airbnbhell.com, it has stories from both points of view (hosts and guests).

      --
      lucm, indeed.
    3. Re:Reviews solve everything by mi · · Score: 1

      Are you kidding? Just google "airbnb horror stories", even the huffington post has an article about this.

      Like this you mean?

      (Do study, how to embed links in your own Slashdot postings.)

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
  34. Re:Can't let the money fall into the wrong hands! by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The "natural state" is me hitting you and taking your stuff.

    --
    Your ad here. Ask me how!
  35. Re:Can't let the money fall into the wrong hands! by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1
    They do live in a community with an HOA, it's called the zoning board/local government. I mean, I cannot think of a single difference between an HOA and a zoning board.

    What would it be?

    --
    Your ad here. Ask me how!
  36. Re:Fines are stupid: we just need to build more ho by guruevi · · Score: 1

    Doesn't matter whether they're regulated, most contractors for developments go with the cheapest products and then when you start noticing the problems (5-10y down the road), it's already past the 1y warranty.

    I currently live in one of those DIY kit houses from the early 20th century, this thing is rock solid and besides the regular wear and settling, no major structural issues.

    --
    Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
  37. Re:Landlords by SydShamino · · Score: 1

    This is an example of the type of thing commercial rentals are inspected for that AirBNB homes are not:

    https://medium.com/matter/livi...

    --
    It doesn't hurt to be nice.
  38. Re:Can't let the money fall into the wrong hands! by SydShamino · · Score: 1

    Post your address. I would like to render pig carcasses upwind. Don't worry, I'll be incorporated and cash out long before my offal pond floods your property.

    Or do you actually believe in zoning regulations? Okay then, let's zone long-term housing differently than short-term housing.

    --
    It doesn't hurt to be nice.
  39. Re:Can't let the money fall into the wrong hands! by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1

    That's fascinating (and sad). I don't suppose you could point me towards a news story about it?

    --
    Your ad here. Ask me how!
  40. What Is Old Is New Again. by westlake · · Score: 1

    Now and again one of our neighbors is caught sub-letting his apartment.

    The complaints come from all sides --- because this undermines the security and stability of the entire apartment block. The location is ideal for small children and retirees and rentals are affordable. The sub-lets have been nothing but trouble. The kind that has you dialing 911.

  41. Free Market by allo · · Score: 1

    So they want to limit the free market to allow only unattractive rentals?

    Face it, there is a need for short term high rent rentals, not for long term low rent ones. People who can't find a long term need to search for areas, where they can find one.

  42. AirBNB is a local corruption test by EmperorOfCanada · · Score: 2

    There are very very few members of the public who don't like or have a problem with AirBNB. Any government that bans them is clearly doing this on the behest of the hotels and other such businesses. This is a perfect example of government officials working for the rich elites and not for the people who voted them into power and pay the taxes that let these thugs have jobs.

    Why do we continue to put up with law after law after law that is not in our best interests.

    Is AirBNB perfect, nope. But any problems can be regulated to solve any problems for the greater good. For instance if someone had three houses on a quiet street that they AirBNB'd for party houses, then you deal with that issue. But a blanket ban is just anti citizenry which would be an action only take if there was some inducement or incentive for the lawmakers.

  43. So this is the "natural state"? by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 1

    The "natural state" is me hitting you and taking your stuff.

    Which is exactly what is happening here. In deference to several thousand years of progress though the weapons of choice to hit you with are either armies of lawyers or, in this case, new laws (or rather new interpretation/enforcement of existing laws). Plus ça change.

  44. Re:Can't let the money fall into the wrong hands! by jandersen · · Score: 1

    OMG, the "little people" are making money!

    Well, I don't think that is really the issue here - there are two things at play: the fact that the hotels are not happy about having "unfair" (= "any") competition, which hard to sympathise with, since the hotel trade appears to be booming in many, from the basest "budget" hotels to the perversely luxurious ones. At least, new hotels seem to be built on a regular basis wherever I go. But the more serious issue is that the professionals that are needed by the cities, like nurses, doctors, teachers, and a long list of fairly ordinary people, are finding it hard to impossible to get any accomodation in the city, and rent sharking or whatever the term may be, is a serious issue.

    And as for "the little people" (we aren't talking about fairy folk, I assume?) - if you can afford to rent 10 appartments, then you will have been able to raise the deposit money for that, so you are probably not so "little" after all, you are just a rent shark, basically a predator causing damage and not caring a bit about it.

  45. Renters are not guests by sjbe · · Score: 1

    So, you want every home (remember every home is a potential airbnb place) inspected by the Governments?

    Homes ARE inspected by the government. I just had my hot water tank upgraded and the township came out to inspect the work to make sure it met code. If I sell the house I'll have to have the government come out to inspect it. Not the common theme here - when money is exchanged the government gets involved to make sure things are done properly. It is easy to show there is a compelling public interest in them doing so. There are a lot of laws that apply for rental properties and governments enforce these to ensure the safety of the occupants and that protected classes are not discriminated against and a few other public interest concerns. These laws didn't appear out of thin air.

    Your family comes, a foreign exchange student comes, a refugee comes, a co-worker comes, a visitor of any kind comes. How do you prove that You aren't an airbnb-er.

    You don't need to. Strawman argument right here. Nobody is arguing against your right to host guests on your property for free. The discussion is whether you can charge them rent without incurring assorted other obligations to ensure the safety and well being of your paying "guests".

    Do you want to pay Taxes to have a guest?

    If you are receiving payments for that "guest" to stay at your residence then you already owe taxes on that income. That would be true even if AirBnB didn't exist. ANY income you generate is taxable and that includes property rentals of any sort. Don't take my word for it. The IRS will be happy to clarify the matter for you.

    1. Re:Renters are not guests by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      And if you didn't have to have your water tank replaced, the old water tank was "Grandfathered" in, and was about as safe as the new replacement, except for the fact that now you've had to have a government inspector involved, paid additional "fees" and you likely delayed repairs because of the added expense. And if you hadn't, there are others that have. Getting Government approvals doesn't actually help, and may actually be problematic. But we can't actually look at those aspects, can we?

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
  46. Re:Can't let the money fall into the wrong hands! by dcw3 · · Score: 1

    HOA power varies from state to state. Here in VA, we've been told that it costs, on average, over $60k for an HOA to take legal action. Had the original developer left yet in your case? Typically, they control the HOA until the development is completed. As for the dues, is that really different than a tax?

    --
    Just another day in Paradise
  47. Re:Separate State and Economics by Overzeetop · · Score: 1

    "protecting rights"

    You mean like the right to choose a residential neighborhood that is not full of transients? Zoning is all about protecting the rights of people who own land - to ensure stability and compatibility of uses. People who are staying for 1-7 nights have very different lifestyles/uses than those of a year or longer. And if you start allowing incompatible uses into a residential neighborhood, you are interfering with the economic activity of everyone who holds their home as a significant portion of their net worth.

    That sword cuts both ways.

    --
    Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
  48. You do not own your property anymore by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    You are not allowed to earn income with your own property anymore. All must work for the state.

  49. Code inspectors are very useful by sjbe · · Score: 1

    And if you didn't have to have your water tank replaced, the old water tank was "Grandfathered" in, and was about as safe as the new replacement, except for the fact that now you've had to have a government inspector involved, paid additional "fees" and you likely delayed repairs because of the added expense.

    Nope. The inspection was 100% free of charge and took very little of my time. The old tank was inspected at the time on it's installation which coincidentally was the last time money changed hands for it. The old tank was safe because it was installed to code and inspectors are VERY useful in ensuring that contractors build to code. The old tank was not as safe as the new one because it was starting to malfunction (pressure releases, pilot going out, etc) I'm guessing you haven't dealt with contractors much but a lot of them will cut corners at every opportunity because it increases their profits. Inspections are required by law in most places because contractors have proven time and again that they cannot be trusted and sometimes this results in dangerous problems. Contractors are about as trustworthy as a used car salesman as a general proposition.

    Getting Government approvals doesn't actually help, and may actually be problematic.

    You have that 100% backwards. Getting government approvals doesn't hurt and sometimes it proves helpful. Sometimes you have to pay for the inspection but that's not a bad thing either. You'd be an idiot to have significant work done on your house and not have it inspected by an independent third party. I've had contractors try to cut corners on work done to my house and the inspector made them do it right. I'm actually quite glad to have code inspectors available to me since I'm not an expert in a lot of areas of home building.

    1. Re:Code inspectors are very useful by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      100% free of charge

      I have a bridge to sell you.

      Getting government approvals doesn't hurt and sometimes it proves helpful.

      Having seen the ridiculous efforts to make us safer, actually do the opposite, I'll beg to differ. I've seen a fire inspector require a new powerstrip, only to see the new (and approved) custom built power strip start a fire, and pop 8 Power supplies and send toxic fumes into a room full of students, all in an effort to keep a cord (under a trip strip) from starting a fire, because the code said so.

      So, I am under NO illusions that such things happen, on a regular basis, but are NEVER recorded as a safety violation to the agency involved.

      Of all the strips I've seen that were "trip" and "fire" hazards, I've never seen one actually start a fire, except the one that was swapped out in an effort to make it safer. Saying it is safer, without full and complete evidence is nothing more that propaganda. I want empirical evidence.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
  50. Re:Can't let the money fall into the wrong hands! by PrimaryConsult · · Score: 1

    Sounds a lot like the city I grew up in, below the poverty line. Here was my secret to success:

    1. Get scholarship to private high school, because otherwise I'd have ended up at "gang ridden public school" (Mom knew how to motivate with fear).
    2. Drink tap water. No Brita either, just run the water for 2 minutes at the beginning of the day to get the brown out (and 30 seconds before drinking it the rest of the day).
    3. Use public transport. There's a stigma that it's just for poor people, but (1) it's for everyone and (2) even if you don't believe that, YOU'RE POOR
    4. Lunch and dinner were anything I could get for under $4. I shared cafeteria fries with an equally poor scholarship winner.
    5. Use financial aid to go to a state university in a cheaper part of the state, work part time through school (thanks Dad for those drunken rants about "why the hell haven't you gotten a fucken job!" all freshman year!), and get a useful degree. Almost done paying that off. Only party when there's free beer.
    6. Establish life in cheaper area where a modest size house costs $140,000. Live with a roommate in a college-quality apartment and use public transport for years after getting a real job.

    Granted none of that was planned but by simply looking around and realizing how easy it is to end up poor and destitute, the right motivation and decisions should just come to you!

  51. Re:Can't let the money fall into the wrong hands! by dcw3 · · Score: 1

    If you're running a business out of your house, it's still your responsibility to pay all applicable taxes. Has there been any implication that people haven't been doing that? To me, that's mostly a distraction from the main topic. If someone is collecting/paying...why should the city give a damn?

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  52. Re:Can't let the money fall into the wrong hands! by dcw3 · · Score: 1

    Good to know you're much far more clever and deserving than those feckless trailer-dwelling proles.

    Depends what level of poverty we're talking about, My own mom lives off of less than $12k/yr social security, and still finds ways to waste cash on gifts, and junk she doesn't need. I'll admit to being a bit of an enabler, as I pay some of her bills. But, ShanghiBill has a point. If you've got disposable income, you should be investing it in yourself before buying cigarettes, booze, etc., etc. Many would hit the lottery, and end up broke again in under a year...it happens all the time (70% from a quick google). We do a poor job of educating people early in life on basic economics.

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  53. Re:Landlords by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Which will be great for a few years, then a few hotels will burn down killing hundreds, and big hotel chains will go bankrupt in the resulting environment of fear. Very rich companies like Hilton and Mariott pay their senators' election campaigns big bucks to make sure that doesn't happen, and if it eliminates their competition that's a bonus.

    tl;dr: Hotel corporations want those regulations. They also want everyone else to have to follow them.

  54. Re:Landlords by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

    Are you fucking kidding me? Some guy dies on a rope swing and you think that's a reason to not allow people to rent out their homes (or rooms within their homes)? How stupid.

    If you really cared about this, you'd be campaigning for the government to go to every single house in America and inspect every rope swing in someone's back yard. The guy could have died just the same by visiting a friend's house and trying out the rope swing in his back yard, but somehow that's not a problem, it's only a problem when the house's owner rents a room on airBnB?

  55. Re:Can't let the money fall into the wrong hands! by GLMDesigns · · Score: 1

    Well that's a load of sh!t. The home ownership rate has been over 60% for generations. A quick google search shows 60%+ since 1960.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    If you want to be taken seriously don't make sh!t up.

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  56. Re:Can't let the money fall into the wrong hands! by GLMDesigns · · Score: 1

    That would be true in parts of NYC as well. But go less than a hour away from midtown and the price of real estate drops considerably. You can find 2 family houses for less than $300,000 and 3 family for less than $500,000.

    Be willing to work weekends fixing up your house and in a few years you too can be calling a fu(king rich pr!ck by self-important a$$holes.

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  57. Re:Can't let the money fall into the wrong hands! by TheCastro1689 · · Score: 1

    I read it as the guy owns one of Portland's 425 rental properties, in Maine. So he doesn't own 425, he owns one of the 425 that exist.

  58. Re:Landlords by UnknowingFool · · Score: 1

    Why would it be not allowed?

    Well, let's start with the contract. If you rent an apartment or condo, there may be a subletting prohibition. In that case it would be illegal for you to sublet as the man in the example has listed. Why this occurs is rather simple: before renting you a property, the landlords/owner vetted you first; they did not vet anyone you chose to sub-let.

    Think of the economic stimulus. If there's a lack of housing then new houses will be built!

    Er? If there is a lack of housing, all sub-letting does is drive up the price of current housing. For example, that guy took 8 apartments and raised the rents for the next person. Do you have any idea how much money it costs to build a house? Secondly, if there is a lack of housing, it's partly because there are few properties to buy to build a house. In a crowded urban area like Santa Monica, there's not a plethora of available, cheap land just waiting for someone to buy.

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  59. Re:Can't let the money fall into the wrong hands! by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

    I don't suppose you could point me towards a news story about it?

    Of course not. When an AC describes a wildly implausible scenario that is almost certainly fabricated, asking for a citation is generally pointless. Apply some critical thinking: If this actually happened, the media would have hyped it to the max, it would have been a HUGE story, and everyone would have heard about it.

  60. Re:Can't let the money fall into the wrong hands! by onepoint · · Score: 1

    While I am not sure about HOA laws about repo, I can say Florida Condo boards can foreclose (repo) a property for lack of payment. the source I cite does mention HOA's but I can not validate that side of it. http://www.gad-law.com/condo-h...

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  61. Re:Can't let the money fall into the wrong hands! by onepoint · · Score: 1

    it's rather factual what you are saying, buying a 3 family and living in 1, helps reduce your total cost every month. and if you add up the basic labor you do: gutter cleaning and roof scrubbing 300 to 600 yearly 2 days, lawn maintenance weekly 2 hours weekly based on 52 weeks $3000 a year ( snow winter, lawn spring + summer, leaves autumn ). patching driveway 2 times a year, 300.00 ... quick numbers showed 3600 on the low-end savings. heck if you got vegetable garden and a few other things, I can place savings at 5,000 per year.

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  62. Re:Can't let the money fall into the wrong hands! by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

    Both of these guys are operating in industries where government action is preventing the open market from operating. They benefit from the Congressionally established rules of cronyism.

    Trump can keep filing bankruptcy as often as he wants and keep operating., a luxury that Congress has made available to the well-connected.

    Shkreli sells generic drugs, which because they are off patent, can be manufactured by anybody. But because Congress has made it illegal for Americans to buy low-cost prescription fills from the same countries where we can buy electronics for steadily decreasing prices, Shkreli can by expending relatively little capital, monopolize the market on generics. The very same drugs that Shkreli has monopolized here trade everywhere else in the world for pennies a pill.

  63. Re:Landlords by BranMan · · Score: 1

    "If you rent an apartment or condo, there may be a subletting prohibition. In that case it would be illegal for you to sublet as the man in the example has listed."

    Um.... No. AFAIK it would not be *illegal* - it would be a breach of your contract with the landlord. Illegal means criminal, contract breach is civil and between the two parties only.

  64. Re:Can't let the money fall into the wrong hands! by Coren22 · · Score: 1

    AC was talking about investment properties, which is a little different than a home you own and live in.

    I don't agree with AC, as most people invest in 401k, which is an investment, but he was talking about something different than the stat you are quoting.

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    APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
  65. Re:Can't let the money fall into the wrong hands! by Coren22 · · Score: 1

    But don't stop posting from Dimension X

    What? Length?

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    APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
  66. Re:Can't let the money fall into the wrong hands! by Coren22 · · Score: 1

    Anyone can file bankruptcy and keep operating, it is a benefit offered to people and corporations alike.

    Many businesses file for bankruptcy, and trying to slam Trump for two out of hundreds of companies he has owned just shows your lack of knowledge of business.

    Quit being that moron and educate yourself, not every company succeeds, and when you, for a business, buy businesses that are failing in order to make them profitable, occasionally you will not succeed at it.

    I don't like any of the presidential candidates (there are currently 4, not 2), but slamming Trump for the occasional failures, while ignoring that Hillary didn't have any attempts makes you look like a partisan moron.

    --
    APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
  67. Re:Can't let the money fall into the wrong hands! by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

    I'm just pointing out that liberals keep citing both these examples as market failures, when they are examples of gaming government regulations. In a free market, neither of those hacks would be available.

  68. Re: Landlords by UnknowingFool · · Score: 1

    So are you saying that you want everyone that visits santamonica to stay in a hotel?

    No I did not. Please stop insinuating what I said. What I said was someone who rented out 8 apartments for the sole purpose of renting out on AirBnB has merely raised the rent for people who actually live there.

    That would make hotel prices go up wouldn't it? How would anyone stay in santamonica then?

    Evidence contradicts your conclusion. Hotel prices do not change with the amount of AirBnB availability generally. It changes with surge pricing due to events happening in Santa Monica.

    I find it nice that I can rent a house for the weekend instead of stay in some stuffy hotel, don't you ? It's a totally different experience. I may even want to live in that city once i try out a few neihborhoods. I have a question: My friend wants to come from New York and stay with me for a week in santamonica. He offered to chip in some cash in exchange for me letting him stay. Do I tell him "no sorry that will drive the rent prices up in santamonica"? Haha

    You letting your friend stay with you is completely different than you renting 8 places for the sole purpose of re-renting them. You've taken 8 residences that someone could have used. As for your preferences, that's what they are: Your preferences.

    Look man, people have been renting their places out short term long before you ever lived in santamonica.

    You missed the point about 8 residences, didn't you?

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