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Issa Bill Would Kill A Big H-1B Loophole (computerworld.com)

ErichTheRed writes: This isn't perfect, but it is the first attempt I've seen at removing the "body shop" loophole in the H-1B visa system. A bill has been introduced in Congress that would raise the minimum wage for an H-1B holder from $60K to $100K, and place limits on the body shop companies that employ mostly H-1B holders in a pass-through arrangement. Whether it's enough to stop the direct replacement of workers, or whether it will just accelerate offshoring, remains to be seen. But, I think removing the most blatant and most abused loopholes in the rules is a good start. "The high-skilled visa program is critical to ensuring American companies can attract and retain the world's best talent," said Issa in a statement. "Unfortunately, in recent years, this important program has become abused and exploited as a loophole for companies to replace American workers with cheaper labor from overseas."

248 comments

  1. as someone who is suffering from this... by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I can only hope that our voices are STARTING to be heard and taken seriously.

    I can't compete with an h1b. I have more experience, I know silicon valley quite well, I have good contacts and can get things done; but I'm 'an expensive american' because I have US healthcare to pay and US rents to pay, etc. and I'm not willing to have 5 other room mates and live-for-work just to stay employed.

    we need a break from this heat wave. many of us who need work cannot get it. companies stopped caring about us and refuse to even consider us. we badly need relief from this or we'll find more of us slipping into the poorest underclass and that's just an absurdity. intelligent and capable thinkers and builders unable to get work because our corp overlords sold us all out.

    I'll believe in the relief when I see it. so far, though, its killing many of us. in some ways, almost literally (I may lose my home soon, that's how bad it can get).

    --

    --
    "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    1. Re:as someone who is suffering from this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      But libertarianism! But free market! But no more evil government! You'll ruin everything with those bills. We will never reach the libertarian utopia with those bills!

    2. Re: as someone who is suffering from this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      We live in a global economy, and there are people who have much, much less than you, and making half your salary will feel like winning the lottery.

      There isn't any stopping it. Evertone should be saving their money right now. Ten years from now the tech industry will be drastically different, and expensive employees will be all but weeded out.

    3. Re:as someone who is suffering from this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fine. Just get rid of the H1B program entirely -- let foreign workers compete on their merits once they legally emigrate.

    4. Re: as someone who is suffering from this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > I have more experience, I know silicon valley quite well, I have good contacts and can get things done;

      Something is fishy about your post.

      I don't mean any offense but if what you say is true then you are super over qualified for the job the H1B is supposed to be doing.

    5. Re: as someone who is suffering from this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Informative

      I don't know in what world you both talk about, but it is definitely not Silocon Valley.

      First of all, H-1Bs in Silicon Valley do not stay in a room with 5 other housemates. They enjoy exceptionally good salaries and their standards of living is very high.

      Secondly, I don't think I would exaggerated if I was to say that 75% of all tech workers of all levels(from junior engineers to VPs) were once H-1Bs. I don't think the Valley would manage without this program.

    6. Re: as someone who is suffering from this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If h1-b's are supposed to be the best and brightest, why is the Indian government fighting H1-B reform in the WTO?

      Wouldn't they want to retain them?

    7. Re:as someone who is suffering from this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      A group of people work their asses off to raise the standard of living for the next generation, to give their kids a better life where they won't have to work themselves to death just to put food on the table.

      Then you come along and tell everyone they have to throw all that work away, because another country didn't bother to do the same thing and now wants a piece of the pie here. Lowest common denominator. As long as someone out there is living in a shithole, nobody else is permitted to have a higher standard of living without lowering themselves to shithole conditions, right?

      Fuck you, pal. FUCK. YOU.

    8. Re: as someone who is suffering from this... by smooth+wombat · · Score: 1

      I don't think the Valley would manage without this program.

      Then they're incompetent. There is absolutely no reason to think people here, already in the industry or working their way up out of school, can't do the job just as well.

      From what I see every day about the people from Silicon Valley, if these are supposed to be smart people I can only wonder what their definition of stupid is. The utter crap of software and services they pump out is staggering. Even more so when one considers the amount of money people pour down the black hole of ineptitude while claiming they're producing something worthwhile.

      --
      We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
    9. Re: as someone who is suffering from this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Boy have you got everything backwards! The H-1B visa program was a government program designed to hurt American workers? It had nothing to do with libertarianism or free markets. You can't get any worse than that without actually executing workers. There is absolutely no free market when you basically use a government program to favor one group over another and in this case foreign workers imported directly to replace you. The H-1B program is the poster child for why you do not want government involvement at any level for any reason.

    10. Re: as someone who is suffering from this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Getting rid of the H-1B program cannot come fast enough.

    11. Re: as someone who is suffering from this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then why do you think they don't do hire the people you say are available? I am asking honestly. How come Google's new CEO is an immigrant and I assume and ex-H-1B? Lower salary?

    12. Re: as someone who is suffering from this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I am doing piecemeal work when I can in the IT field despite having been employed many years in it. I also drive for Uber and I drive many of the H-1B visa workers who are usually Indians home at night. They basically have indentured servants who will work any amount of time and they do not even want to look at an American. When we have carnivorous companies that basically want indentured servants to support the Fortune 500 company where one particular CEO made 500 million last year we have a corrupt government aiding and abetting it all the way

    13. Re: as someone who is suffering from this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What?

      Please tell me how importing cheaper foreign labor and stifling Americans out of domestic jobs is libertarian?

    14. Re: as someone who is suffering from this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and you have no idea what you are talking about

    15. Re: as someone who is suffering from this... by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      In a Libertarian idealistic world, labor would be as free as capital is to cross borders.

    16. Re:as someone who is suffering from this... by roman_mir · · Score: 0

      Welcome to the real world, the world that businesses had to operate in for all this time, when the scales were tipped to the other side, the side where the collectivist government was able to force businesses whatever the mob wanted.

      I build my own products and services and also on a side I provide outsourcing services. Guess what, companies are looking for relief. When I say 'companies' I am talking about small and medium sized businesses that work with me, not giant corporations, they have their own outsourcing solutions and they are unapproachable. But they are not the only ones who understand that the American system of government made the American worker so unproductive as to basically turn him or her unemployable.

    17. Re:as someone who is suffering from this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've suffered the other end of this, though many had it far worse during their H1-B "experience". This move is 25 years too late, but better late than never. I moved elsewhere with my wife and kids, you could now not pay me to even consider the USA for any reason.

    18. Re: as someone who is suffering from this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      JK, we are all fucked

    19. Re: as someone who is suffering from this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But that's not what happened here. If your view of libertarianism doesn't extend past that then give it up. There is nothing in libertarianism about smashing up markets and skewing them using the power of government.

    20. Re:as someone who is suffering from this... by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It sounds like you don't have relevant skill sets anymore

      I am not a web gui jokey, if that's what you mean. I can hold my own in C, C++, I can do ok enough in python, and probably get by as well as others in the languages they don't use regularly.

      I am pretty in touch with computing in most areas. and I don't even insist on specialist jobs. there are a ton of 'can you write C code?' jobs and I'm be ok doing that. they won't give it to me; I'm too qualified, then. even when I beg for the job, I'm too overqualified and they won't give it to me.

      there has been writing and teaching in my background and I'm happy enough to do that. nope, once you write C code, they won't take you as a tech writer. I'm happy to do it! I enjoy it. but the stigma stops them from taking me on. I'm not making this stuff up, either.

      I can design hardware, do board bring-up, order parts and eval things. write the firmware, do the networking, solder the parts, document it, write the host based back ends. ensure the whole system works. take it to trade shows and demo it. write the docs for it, do the RMA service. in other words, I can do a whole company's worth of jobs and in some ways I act as a whole hardware/software company of size 1. I can do most anything.

      and yet, here I am. unemployed and finding it very hard to break thru that 'but you are an older expensive american' boundary. its a killer, even if you're highly skilled and capable.

      I will confess, I'm over 50 and that's a major 'problem' right there for silicon valley employers. they mostly don't hire us anymore and if they do, its always as contract and never fulltime. they're afraid to touch us, in effect. (when you let go a person over a certain age, they have to document a lot more and show that it wasn't due to age. other things come into play when you take on an older guy, and I realize this crap is going on, but its still a show-stopper in your goal of getting employed).

      I also know that its common to say 'you are not keeping up' but that's a BS line. I am keeping up. that's not the issue and it never was.

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    21. Re: as someone who is suffering from this... by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 4, Informative

      I have been living and working in the bay area for about 25 yrs, now. before that I spent a bunch of years in the boston area, doing the boston software thing.

      when I work at some of the big names in the bay area, I see who is working there and what their skill level is. I hear the talk in meetings and see the tech discussions. I see the writings on whiteboards left from meetings. I hear hallway talk. I see the bugs from co-workers. I see the lack of qa and testing and blatant bugs in routines that have 5 lines of code. I see docs that were clearly not written by native english speakers.

      the best and brightest? h1b? you HAVE to be shitting me.

      big huge lie. they are the cheapest warm bodies you can buy and dominate and boss around. but they are not, and never were, best and brightest. their curve is like our curve; we have some that are stars and most are average. the ones that come over have the same bell curve. some really good stars, but for the most part, you could find the same level of quality here, already.

      h1b is bullshit. we all know it.

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    22. Re:as someone who is suffering from this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That was spot on. I'd uprate you if I could. And, I've been there. Watched Lexmark (Lexington campus) turn into a shithole after they started dumping U.S. software developers in favor of H1Bs. Today it was announced that Lexmark is selling out to the Chinese.

    23. Re: as someone who is suffering from this... by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      Ok that's all well and good, but could I please have confirmation that the wealthy of my country will give at least the same percentage that I do instead of taking from it?

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    24. Re:as someone who is suffering from this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can only hope that our voices are STARTING to be heard and taken seriously.

      I can't compete with an h1b. I have more experience, I know silicon valley quite well, I have good contacts and can get things done; but I'm 'an expensive american' because I have US healthcare to pay and US rents to pay, etc. and I'm not willing to have 5 other room mates and live-for-work just to stay employed.

      I'm not in silicon valley, but wages out here are not that great, and involuntary layoffs are occurring, right along with just hiring more college grads. Sure they may hold off hiring even more for awhile, but they had to see this coming and the layoffs always seem to target the higher paid workers. My own advice comes down to this.

      Assume the job your on is not the job your going to retire with and keep a continuous, at least once a month search for your next job. Companies, in general, seem to have no loyalty whatsoever, and only look at what you are costing them, and not even what you have made them. They assume that cheaper is better, and will happily change anything that improves their short term bottom line, even if it is terrible for long term. Job changing is also about the only way to get a decent increase in salary. Beyond that, well I try to live below my means. Sure it may be overkill to assume the worst, but having a worst case plan for say the next two years never hurts.

      The H1B issue of course makes everything worse. Ethically though, I'd like to see H1Bs limited to say 2 years before you have to become a citizen or leave. That way at least everyone is on an equal footing.

    25. Re:as someone who is suffering from this... by Tough_Nuts · · Score: 2

      If you can't get a job where you are at, maybe you should think of moving east or north. Has to be better than where you are at job wise. I am 54, and have no problem getting a job. For that matter I have a hard time batting them away from me, I always have 3 or 4 head hunters calling after me. So maybe it is your location and not your skill set.

    26. Re: as someone who is suffering from this... by ATMAvatar · · Score: 1

      you do not want government involvement at any level for any reason.

      The 13th Amendment says hi.

      --
      "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
    27. Re: as someone who is suffering from this... by mad7777 · · Score: 1

      I'm sure you realize how much you sound like a whiney special interest. Meanwhile, the rest if us are happy to have cheap(er) labor available to control the costs of living.

      --
      Might makes right irrelevant.
    28. Re:as someone who is suffering from this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ditto. I'm in the North East and am older than both of you. There's loads of work around here, and most of the kids I work with are half my age or less, and not an H1-B in sight. If you have or can get a security clearance it's even better. My skill-set sounds a lot like the TGN's without the hardware. I did learn the LAMP stack in my mid-50s which combined with what I already new made me pretty versatile.

    29. Re: as someone who is suffering from this... by undefinedreference · · Score: 2, Insightful

      H-1Bs are supposed to be the cream of the crop, not entry level people. Local recent grads in the US often find it hard to get their foot in the door in the job market because there are no entry level jobs left.

      On the other hand, the program has always needed an extremely high minimum wage limit because 60k isn't even a realistic starting salary straight out of school these days. Here in Seattle, 125k is what a fresh-out-of-school CS grad can expect to make in their first programming job. I know a community college dropout that just turned 21 that is making over 6 figures. These numbers are much lower than those seen in SV/SF.

    30. Re:as someone who is suffering from this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Looking at those figures from the outside, better have h1b's working and spending on the US, than having capital outside of the US, I assume that the average US programmer is as human as the average programmer in the rest of the world, so if the rest of the world has a lower common denominator, the US is in the wrong, or the US capital isn't doing their work right.

    31. Re:as someone who is suffering from this... by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      I do see lots of older contract workers in Silicon Valley. Often it's just their choice, they can get more money that way (especially if a spouse has a family health insurance plan), it's flexible, etc. It's probably easier to get hired that way, and I've never seen a contractor being formally interviewed, sometimes you don't even see them ever walk in the door or talk with the project members. I wouldn't do it myself, I can barely keep track of my finances as it is much less have to deal with the extra burden of being my own HR and I like having weekends free.

    32. Re: as someone who is suffering from this... by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      It's easy to get cheap labor. What's hard is getting good labor. If you've got an important project then it helps to have good people on it instead of going about it half assed with the cheapest bodies you can get. Though if it's just rote IT grunt work web application touch up then go for it. But if you need quality work done you need quality workers.

    33. Re: as someone who is suffering from this... by Crashmarik · · Score: 1

      Sorry the First amendment is the talker. He says he will pray for you.
      The 2nd amendment is gunning for you.

    34. Re:as someone who is suffering from this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I gotta be honest here. I'd LOVE to come to the US to live but the way I see it the H1B system is fucked up and being abused to bring in primarily Indians and replace US workers. That's not right on so many levels. Sure it suits US corporations because the H1B is basically indentured labor against whom US citizens cannot compete. Of course US corporations love it. But that's fucked up. US workers either need immigration banned entirely or else the only immigrants allowed have the same rights to work anywhere that US citizens do. That way the immigrants won't *always* be undercutting US citizens.

    35. Re: as someone who is suffering from this... by mad7777 · · Score: 1

      I couldn't agree more. Having witnessed corporate IT outsourcing first hand, and being one of its "victims", I can tell you that the cost savings are generally superficial, as the project will end up costing more in the long term. Nonetheless, this remains a decision to be taken by management, who would normally be made to bear the consequences of their bad decisions. Unlike others, I'm not so much interested in protecting my employment from competition, but rather in being useful.

      --
      Might makes right irrelevant.
    36. Re: as someone who is suffering from this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nonsense. Nearly all CS grads, except for a few lucky ones "chosen" by those tech companies, are getting $0 or close to it. In other words, they're unemployed. Tons of CS grads, even guys at the top of their classes, would be glad for a $60-$80k job. $125k is a complete exaggeration in most cases for a fresh out of school CS grad unless they went to Stanford and have a bunch of connections.

    37. Re:as someone who is suffering from this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Silicon Valley doesn't hire young either. Top new grads can shop their resumes around and get no response from the tech employers. They all want guys with 10 years of 'experience' willing to work entry level. Oh, and must have graduated from one of their hand-picked colleges. The average tech grad has almost no chance in the SV.

    38. Re: as someone who is suffering from this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The Indians have a huge tax racket going for them - H1B and its semi-slavery is only part of this.

      Essentially, a lot of these shops get 0 taxes. Naught, nothing, zilch. If they have a profit in the US, they instead hire a bunch of people in India, and _net_ twice the salary expenses in tax savings.

      Furthermore, they rotate most of the staff, so that they at no time may be taxed where they work.

      I won't get into possible all the possible kickback and tax evading* schemes.

      I have nothing against competing with Indians, but right now they are heavily subsidised.

      *) I use the word "evasion" because this should bloody well be illegal.

    39. Re:as someone who is suffering from this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Nonsense. Most SV software talent isn't making much more than $100k. Almost no startup jobs are $200k. Stock is largely worthless for most of the companies. Where do you come up with such nonsense? Not supported by Glassdoor or any salary survey out there.

    40. Re:as someone who is suffering from this... by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      As if H1Bs don't have rent and health insurance to pay. What do you think they are, incorporeal spirits?

    41. Re: as someone who is suffering from this... by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      The power of government is what maintains borders - visas are government-issued documents, and immigration officers are government employees. In the absence of government regulations, people are free to move between countries as they see fit.

    42. Re:as someone who is suffering from this... by IWantMoreSpamPlease · · Score: 1

      Have you considered working for the state? They don't care about age there. Where I am, being over 50 is considered a plus.
      In addition, you get all kinds of perks, health care, dental, vision, mental sick days, vacation, all manner of goodness.

      --
      So rise up, all ye lost ones, as one, we'll claw the clouds.
    43. Re:as someone who is suffering from this... by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Two points.

      First, do what everyone does and tailor your CV to different jobs. If they don't like people with C experience, just don't mention it. Limit work experience to the last few jobs so you look younger.

      The age discrimination is much harder to get past. Your generation screwed everyone by making the cost of living so high that older people need huge wages to maintain their lifestyle and have a reasonable pension and healthcare cover. The only solution for you is to move somewhere cheaper and take a lower wage, which sucks but is still better than the situation for young people.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    44. Re:as someone who is suffering from this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can only hope that our voices are STARTING to be heard and taken seriously.

      I can't compete with an h1b.

      I've bad news for you. H-1Bs not coming to town will mean even more corporations will farm out their development to Indian coding farms. It's already happening, and has been building for at least ten years. You think you're safe? Not even close! You're going to lose even more skilled jobs one mid-sized corps see how easy it is to do 90%+ of the coding elsewhere and just have a tiny local team to bring it into line.

      Facts you may not like: IT is too expensive for US corporations (as it is in the EU). The boards are determined to scale back the massive drain on operating costs. The vast majority of developers in mature corporations will be out of a job within a decade. India already has proven track records with millions of coders covering all skillsets available on tap for 15% of what you and I cost our employers. China is starting to do the same, and will be even cheaper. Russian oligarchs are creating similar coding farms, and if they get their way with the EU, they'll destroy European programming jobs, too.

      The gravy train has come to town, and it's now disappearing over the horizon. Retrain now, or face a very grim future.

    45. Re: as someone who is suffering from this... by Megane · · Score: 1

      It depends on where you live. In Texas, a single guy (fresh grads don't have a family to care for) can do quite okay on 60K. In Silicon Valley you would have a big problem on even 100K.

      --
      #naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
    46. Re:as someone who is suffering from this... by Megane · · Score: 1

      for silicon valley employers

      Well maybe you should try working somewhere other than Silly Valley? I'm sure you could find work as an embedded systems guy (which is basically what you have described) in Austin or Dallas.

      --
      #naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
    47. Re:as someone who is suffering from this... by Megane · · Score: 1

      Your generation screwed everyone

      Hey, watch that "your generation" thing. Gen X is just now going over 50. If you mean boomers, you're going to have to say boomers.

      --
      #naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
    48. Re: as someone who is suffering from this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, consumer here. I've noticed the lack of quality. I'm not happy about it. Also I see all this corporate welfare going on. If you want to benefit from the US system, you use US workers or import them yourselves. The law wasn't created so that you could onshore your workforce with slave labor you douchebag,

    49. Re: as someone who is suffering from this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nice appeal to authority fallacy there.

      Getting rid of H1Bs will immensely improve the technology situation in the US by getting rid of all the incompetent but cheap workers who take their way through jobs on a daily basis and create messes that actual qualified tech people have to clean up.

      The purpose of the H1B program is to lower wages. Period. If you don't have it, IT wages will go up, especially for truly qualified people. That is what will make more people learn IT skills. Why would I start out in a profession that requires massive education, constant study, odd hours, and little respect from anybody when all that comes with competition with unqualified foreign import labor brought here by my own government and sociopath CEOs?

    50. Re:as someone who is suffering from this... by 0100010001010011 · · Score: 1

      for silicon valley employers.

      Then it sounds like you're insisting on a geographical area to find a job and blaming the job market on the lack of jobs. People that want to be crab boat deckhands don't go to Arizona.

      I tossed a few key words & technologies into Indeed and had 0 problems finding available positions around Farmington Hills, MI. (The only geographic area I decided to search).

      All of those have direct need for C skills and in addition (based on where I've worked with those skills) need people that can do everything you listed. All of these companies have a shortage of engineers that can do what you listed and are looking for them (and willing to pay them). There were 21 jobs RTOS within 25 miles of Farmington Hills starting $110k

      And that is one job skill set within one geographic area (That isn't Silicon valley). I can repeat those job searches across the country.

      I'm over 50 and that's a major 'problem'

      I work with 50+ engineers all the time. Some of them 'recently' hired. It has nothing to do with age.

      that's not the issue and it never was.

      Yes. It's people that insist on looking in a very small geographic area that has a flood of people wanting to live there. Driving the job market out from under people also wanting to live there. You think your grandfather got to turn down jobs from the CCC because "eh, I really don't want to get bussed into a different city during the depression. Can't you just let me work here?"

      Seriously, I'm having a hard time not finding any jobs on Indeed. $100-$130k. Experience in GUI/applications development in C#, C++, and VB6. Experience working with TCP/IP and automotive protocols (CAN, J1850, etc.) Some knowledge of embedded systems. Any experience in CAN diagnostics is a plus.

      This leads us to one of a few conclusions:

      • Your insistence to live Earhquake Zone is stronger than your want to get a job.
      • You really aren't as skilled as you say you are.
    51. Re:as someone who is suffering from this... by 0100010001010011 · · Score: 1

      I ended up deleting my LinkedIn. I'm happy at my current company and tired of getting spam.

    52. Re: as someone who is suffering from this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bell curves apply to countries too.

    53. Re: as someone who is suffering from this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The sole function of HR is to prove in a court of law that the organization did not discriminate, or do anything illegal in its hiring practices. Once you understand that concept, you'll understand how, and why a company can post a vacancy, have 1,000 applicants, none if whom is qualified, but the solitary H1B non-applicant, that was going to be hired, regardless of the qualifications of those 999 other applicants.

    54. Re:as someone who is suffering from this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As long as someone out there is living in a shithole, nobody else is permitted to have a higher standard of living without lowering themselves to shithole conditions, right?

      Fuck you, pal. FUCK. YOU.

      I hope you share the same sentiment when the upperclass 1%ers replace workers with robots using those exact same words.

    55. Re: as someone who is suffering from this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Valley isn't managing themselves very well with the program. The Valley used to produce lots of great new technology. Now they produce practically nothing, and even have the audacity to re-package things invented 20-30 years ago, like FTP servers (ie: dropbox) and mainframe computing (ie: called "cloud" now), and call it "brand-new".

      If anything, the H-1B'sneed to be sent packing so that the Silicon Valley can restore itself to innovation. O-1 visas, of course, for top talent, are always available in unlimited numbers for those who meet the criteria of being best and brightest.

    56. Re:as someone who is suffering from this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Out here in the Midwest we are really really having a hard time attracting or retaining software engineers. If you are able to move, there are jobs ... h1b or no h1b.

    57. Re:as someone who is suffering from this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you can't get a job where you are at, maybe you should think of moving east or north.

      He's living at the North Pole, you insensitive clod!

    58. Re: as someone who is suffering from this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ah ah please don't make me laugh so much.

      I've worked with Indian teams for many many years, in many different companies (I'll a freelance architect).

      The LARGE majority of them are completely and utterly incompetent.

      Getting rid of them would no doubt BOOST the state of technology in US

    59. Re: as someone who is suffering from this... by hackwrench · · Score: 1

      That's your only hope? My position is that we need to can world rulers, stop treating ruling and leadership as synonyms and restore the public domain, among other things. All the "little problems" are merely symptoms of the one big systemic one.

    60. Re: as someone who is suffering from this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Lol sore butthurt loser much? The Cool Kids are not cool just before they are in the football team: they're cool because they're great at socializing and because they are both competitive AND team players. You nerdy weirdos on the other hand keep up this delusion of being "superior" because you pursue "intellectual" skills (i.e. shit that does not require any real effort) and you always -ALWAYS - keep to yourselves because you are afraid of confrontation. The one time our team's quarterback managed to persuade the chess club's president to a match, be wiped the floor with him. Of course the geek could not accept it and accused his adversary of "cheating" because a "dumb jock" could never beat a "genius" like him. Everybody laughed and he stormed off fuming. Since the "dumb jock" became a lead researcher in a pharmaceutical company and the "genius" was flipping burgers the last time we heard of him, this seem to put the final nail in the coffin of the cherished fantasy that "nerds will become our bosses one day", doesn't it? Deal with it, losers: winners are winners and you don't belong in our ranks. Go back to your basement.

    61. Re: as someone who is suffering from this... by hackwrench · · Score: 1

      There's a fuss about the United States' debt, but Asian nations must be racking up much more debt as they are subsidizing all of our purchases. The real problem with nations' debt if there is one is that it increases the money supply. Nations don't really run out of credit until their currency is so devalued no one will lend to them, and Asian nations are doing it the most.

    62. Re:as someone who is suffering from this... by adri · · Score: 1

      heh, if you're a good C developer and you're in the bay area, drop me a line - adrian@freebsd.org . We need more. :P

    63. Re:as someone who is suffering from this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Intelligent people are evenly spread around the world. Education has little correlation with creating intelligent people, just with creating mindless drones that are better at follow best practice. You're just as likely to get the next great [insert non-mindless profession] from some war-torn poverty stricken village in Africa then Berkeley. It is in our best interest to create an incentive to draw as many smart people into our country.

    64. Re: as someone who is suffering from this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We live in a global economy, and there are people who have much, much less than you, and making half your salary will feel like winning the lottery.

      There isn't any stopping it. Evertone should be saving their money right now. Ten years from now the tech industry will be drastically different, and expensive employees will be all but weeded out.

      This simply means that our currency is overinflated, and needs to be adjusted to cost of living across countries

    65. Re: as someone who is suffering from this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Top of their class" is almost worthless in many cases. I've talked with CS professors behind closed doors and one the biggest complaints is almost every test they can think of still allows some subset of people who should not be in CS to get "A"s. The professors can't place short time restrictions because many students have jobs, and they can't dock students for only being technically correct, even if they're wrong "in spirit".

      With enough determination, almost anyone can become "top of the class". In the 50+ years of looking at this problem, no one has figured out a way to fail people who are not meant for CS. What needs to be tested is not the end result or their knowledge, but their reasoning. That is nearly impossible to do by only looking at the end result.

    66. Re: as someone who is suffering from this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, and their governments and consulting firms have spent billions pushing them as the best of the best. This country has no immunity to bullshit. Everybody is a genius if they look confident telling you so

    67. Re: as someone who is suffering from this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Jesus Christ, you anti-government types are such idiots. Government is the foundation of society. Without government, there is nothing to stop corporations from owning us. Did you not pay attention in any of your history classes, or did you go to school in one of those "fact-free" education states?

    68. Re: as someone who is suffering from this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      why can't you get paid $60K from the company and ask the government for the $40K then? Also, how come you are cool with a Fast food worker who works just as hard as you getting a mere $8 an hour. Who are you to decide what the value of your work is? That's a hell of a thing. If a worker can decide their own value why won't a fast food worker decide his own work is worth $100k too?

      No wonder companies are choosing robots. I am sure you would be happy to program robots that take away jobs.

    69. Re:as someone who is suffering from this... by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      From last week's Illinois Times: a story about H-2B workers. If you read it, it will anger you. It isn't just tech workers who suffer.

    70. Re: as someone who is suffering from this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      libertarianism != anarchy

      libertarianism == limited government

      The fact you can point out a beneficial aspect of government (borders) isn't an argument against libertarianism, it's an argument against anarchy. Getting real sick of people on this site conflating the two so that any government policy which has some benefit becomes a "explain that, Libertarians!" Libertarians do not want zero government, okay? Libertarians want the government to be as limited as it can be while still maintaining necessary functions. If you want to make an argument against libertarianism it might be prudent to make some sort of argument against the actual policy positions of the Libertarian party rather than simply beating up your anarchist strawman.

    71. Re: as someone who is suffering from this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If that's how it should work the descendants of alaves should have it the best.

    72. Re:as someone who is suffering from this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This can all be easily solved. You just have to move to India and work from there. It is where all the IT jobs will finally end up anyway.

    73. Re: as someone who is suffering from this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      First letter of every sentence should be capitalized. Yes, I'm on H1B

    74. Re: as someone who is suffering from this... by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Libertarianism is not just any limited government. It's government limited to those functions that are necessary to maximize individual liberties (or individual negative rights, to be more specific).

      Libertarians also believe that all people, not just those that happened to be born in a "right" country, have said rights.

      Now, go ahead and explain how government-sponsored economic protectionism (which borders are, at least in the context of this discussion) maximizes individual rights and liberties.

    75. Re: as someone who is suffering from this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But without government there would legally be no corporations. Well, none headquartered in the governmentless country. And without government, infrastructure would decline and laws wouldn't be enforced ( wait there wouldn't be any of those) so it would be very unlikely any foreign corporations would want to risk putting assets into a governmentless country. So I guess the corporations wouldn't exactly own us...

    76. Re: as someone who is suffering from this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      H-1Bs are supposed to be the cream of the crop, not entry level people.

      H-1Bs are for people with degrees and a "speciality occupation".

      The cream of the crop get O-1 visas.

      https://travel.state.gov/content/visas/en/employment/temporary.html

    77. Re: as someone who is suffering from this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      because they send money home

    78. Re: as someone who is suffering from this... by KenHansen · · Score: 1

      The free market wouldn't have special visa programs like H-1B, foreigners would have to immigrate here to work here, same as everyone else, a much more expensive and time-consuming process than the H-1B visa process.

    79. Re:as someone who is suffering from this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      welcome to the real world.

      It is not a purpose of a company to care for anything but profit and if required obeying the law. If the law says they have to pay social contributions then they do. If the law says they can sell your kidneys then some will do if stressed financially or just because it is possible. The consequence of this all is that international conglomerates of the size allowing for market valuation being the size of one of middle sized country do not have to obey law all that much because they can always escape with their profits elsewhere making jurisdictions compete on best law for a company. Any resistance is futile because liberal policies in this respect are prevalent and it is difficult to forbid the company growing above certain level. There are other consequences of this some of them good (for some at least) some bad (for most at least).

      There are only 2 known methods of forcing some social responsibility - revolution and migration to a better place leaving the owners with a mess. None of these options is always available and easy to apply.

    80. Re: as someone who is suffering from this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It isn't the Indian Govt fighting, its NASSCOM. Because that's the lobby group representing the great Indian IT outsourcing inc. H1-B is where money is for Indian IT co's. H1-B's are the front face of the company. A 'capable' (marketing wise) H1-B could help their company identify and outsource many more jobs to India. They undertake functions like co-ordinating with their US clients and communicating with their off-shore teams, cross-selling to their US clients, showing off *capabilities* of their Indian operations to out-source more work. If its going to become costlier to maintain these H1-B's for Indian IT co's, which are already seeing their margins come down due to fierce competition and simultaneously see their top lines shrink due to automation, they are going to have a tough time. And hence the hard lobbying to retain a foot-hold close to their US clients.

      That said, this bill, like many of its predecessors, will not pass. Because, that would mean many US companies who are currently employing many H1-B workers at lower than 100K wages, will be forced to cut them or increase their wages to 100K. Which will prove to be very costly. So US companies themselves will lobby hard to not let this bill pass. So it won't. Period.

    81. Re: as someone who is suffering from this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      PS: You might wonder, why these "front faces" suck so much? Because, the better talented Indians do not like to live in India. If the Indian IT co's hire better people and send them on H1-B's, there is a risk that they might jump ship once they reach the US shores by finding another US employer. Ensuring that they never have to return to India. So its a balancing act for the Indian IT co's. They have to find a fellow who wouldn't be worth more than 40K and send him to the US for 60K. Ensuring he stays put with the Indian IT co. But the fellow might not be good enough to convince the US client to outsource more then. Its a tricky situation.

    82. Re: as someone who is suffering from this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      CS schools fail a lot of people out. In a nutshell, if you're not competent, you don't get through the program. There are far easier ways of getting a 4-year degree that don't involve attending CS school to enter a profession for which one isn't competent.

      The fact that tech firms throw CS grad resumes into the garbage without considering them in good faith, or pulling nonsense like coding tests in interviews rather than recognizing the credential of the CS degree.

    83. Re: as someone who is suffering from this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Its very hard to find quality workers when there's a decade worth of CS grads shooting resumes into the application queues of nearly every business by the hundreds, sometimes thousands.

      Imagine yourself as a recruiter at a big tech company like Google, Facebook, etc., looking for a specialized skill. You put an ad on your website, you get 5000 resumes back. Almost impossible to sort through that mess with any level of precision. In the practical sense, nearly all of the applications are tossed into the garbage. Including lots of good talent.

      By stopping the H-1B and OPT visas, you at least get the applications down to reasonable numbers. Recruiters and tech firm's engineers themselves can interact with the professional community and candidates, not only to identify and hire talent, but also to give students and potential workers cues on what skills or training they should be acquiring. But when you have 5000 applicants for a single job, its basically impossible for recruiters and engineers to do anything but exist in their bunkers.

    84. Re:as someone who is suffering from this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The answer is to accelerate the real immigration process and get rid of H1b's all together. We live in a global economy and the US has a higher cost of living than other countries. If US businesses can't access the cheaper labor pool, then US consumers will be buying software from non-us companies and we will lose all of the jobs. But as you said, if the foreign workers have to become US citizens prior to working in the US, they will be paying the same higher cost of living and will have the same salary demands.

    85. Re:as someone who is suffering from this... by Wolfrider · · Score: 1

      --Seriously man, you should consider banding together with whoever else in your area is in the same fix and start your own company. Feel free to contact me off-slashdot if you want to discuss this, I may have a few ideas and stuff that can help you out.

      --
      .
      == WolfriderV6 == I'm willing to admit that *I just might* be wrong... Are you??
    86. Re:as someone who is suffering from this... by freshmeathead · · Score: 1

      There are a lot of jobs in Omaha, and Silicon Valley companies with offices. I work for PayPal and our entire team here is over 50. Lots of jobs in Omaha, great housing market, stable economy. Best jobs website for Omaha area is careerlink.org.

      Good luck!

  2. sounds good, too bad it depends on congress by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    This should be a no-brainer.

    I'll be shocked if it even makes it to a vote.

    (captcha: divisive)

    1. Re:sounds good, too bad it depends on congress by tomhath · · Score: 1

      True. This is an election year so there's a lot of posturing going on. But Issa is Republican so the bill has a chance.

  3. first post! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    first post!

  4. Free movement of labor for other jobs... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Government protection for mine!

    1. Re:Free movement of labor for other jobs... by wierd_w · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Most americans were actually against removing the trade barriers that allowed labor market shopping of the kind you imply. The agreements were railroaded through anyway.

      Most Americans would actually support reintroduction of tariff and excise costs on foriegn goods and services, even though this will increase domestic product cost.

    2. Re:Free movement of labor for other jobs... by wierd_w · · Score: 3, Informative

      In this case, there is no counter-benefit to the trade, other than "inexpensive purchases", without a subsequent offsetting or balancing return transaction. Tariffs and excise duties help to balance out these kinds of inequalities, and help to artificially secure such comparative advantages, where otherwise it would be impossible to sustain them.

      The goal of a tariff is not to squelch foreign products in the market. It is to ensure that the domestic products remain in the market, and continue to be produced by the country engaging in the trade. The counterpoint to the principle thesis of the theory of comparative advantage is that a country that is very prosperous, and able to supply itself with any and every good conceivable in a more efficient manner than any other nation it could trade with, will still engage in trade-- is that countries that are less capable of producing goods, still produce goods to trade to the more capable country.

      The US produces fewer and fewer trade goods, and consumes more and more trade goods every year, and with it, employment (and financial liquidity) decline, and with those, standard of living declines, or at least progresses at slower and slower rates.

      Again, the goal of a tariff is not to completely squelch the flow of foreign trade goods--- Foreign trade goods enrich the local market by leveraging the creativity and resources of other nations, allowing the local consumers to benefit from other country's advances as well-- The goal is to ensure that local production CONTINUES.

      Now, are you satisfied, AC?

    3. Re:Free movement of labor for other jobs... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I used to be into free-trade. And I still think free trade works.

      IF AND ONLY IF you're doing free trade with a company with equivalent living costs and wages.

      Otherwise it's a race to the bottom. Look at the price of hourly labor on the equivalent of rentacoder. Cents per hour. Look at how much you can make on ebay - you can't - you're competing with China.

      Honestly it's time to go back to the way the US was in the beginning. Tariffs.

    4. Re:Free movement of labor for other jobs... by Martin+Blank · · Score: 2

      That's the textbook goal of a tariff. Countries have used tariffs to effectively shut off imports.

      Tariffs also only work if the imposing country has a significant advantage. It's possible to vastly overdo them, as the Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act did (trade dropped by half in both directions). In a global trade era, the effect of tariffs against a given country can be quickly countered by that country offering more advantageous trade opportunities to other nations. China could offer more generous status to the EU, for example, which would probably be quick to accept lower cost imports as a potential boost to its own lackluster economy.

      Trade wars benefit few, and rarely end up with the imposing country getting its entire way. As time goes on and trade becomes even more globalized, I suspect that the imposing country will more often be forced to offer significant concessions to get out of the trade war. Eventually, free trade zones the world over will be the rule. Whether that's good in general or not, I don't know.

      --
      You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
    5. Re:Free movement of labor for other jobs... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You didn't say you understand Ricardo's theory of comparative advantage. And the text makes it clear you don't. Go, study, you are argumenting against something you don't understand. Any country pays for imports with its exports. If the US is only importing cheaply, how great that is!! You would understand this argument, if you understood Ricardo.

      Just an intersting fact demonstrating you ignorance: The US exports and produces more than it has ever exported. Go, figure.

      I did write the request on purpose: most people in general have an idea that they do understand economics - because we all are actually part of it. The reality is they don't and they don't have a clue that they don't. Go, study Bastiat, Hazlitt, see what Friedman had to say about growing cars in the fields in Iowa, think about it - and when you understand what their arguments, go and make your own. But until that humility would be advisable.

    6. Re:Free movement of labor for other jobs... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... that local production CONTINUES.

      It's a bad idea that usually results in protecting poor industry practices; which happened with the American steel industry. When India can send their mediocre university graduates (who probably cheated on their exams) to the USA and get 15 times the average Indian wage (less kickbacks to immigration companies), it is India who has the competitive advantage, since US citizens can't receive 15 times the US average wage by working in another country.

      ... ensure that the domestic products remain in the market ...

      But 'saving jobs' turns into corporate welfare via tariffs on the competition. This hidden sales tax makes everything more expensive, even the imports the country needs. Worse, the focus moves from 'saving jobs' into 'creating jobs', which is what the rich people are meant to do, remember. The focus on saving/creating jobs causes wage inflation, which sucks money out of R&D, IT, customer support and corporate growth: That's called stagflation.

    7. Re: Free movement of labor for other jobs... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The jobs are not coming back when you add tariffs. The only reason China has jobs is their workers are cheaper than robots. A friend of mine used to be a manager in a factory that made cotton fabric in the 90s. They had to shutdown because of competition from China. The Chinese were offering the same or similar fabric for $4 a pound will my friend's factory was producing it at $20 a pound. yeah the Chinese quality might be 4 times worse but that's a selling point for clothes if you have to replace your wardrobe once a year instead of once in four years. If we start making things here the costs of things will go up. The price of cheap goods will go up, robots will do me waybband the poor won't be able to afford anything.

    8. Re:Free movement of labor for other jobs... by wierd_w · · Score: 1

      So, let me get this straight AC--

      A country that imports more than it exports is "Great!" in your estimation, and pointing out that the actual quote from ricardo concerning his theory is as follows, with a little added emphasis of my own:

      [blockquote]
      "If a foreign country can supply us with a commodity cheaper than we ourselves can make it, better buy it of them [b]with some part of the produce of our own industry employed in a way in which we have some advantage.[/b] The general industry of the country, being always in proportion to the capital which employs it, will not thereby be diminished ... but only left to find out the way in which it can be employed with the greatest advantage."
      [/blockquote]

      Note, his thesis does not work at all when the bolded part is not met.

      While the US does have the second largest export market, A significant proportion of the US's labor force is not tied to manufacturing or exports, most of it is service industry. Further, the manufacturing capacity of the US is currently struggling.

      http://www.reuters.com/article...

      Reuters attributes the low manufacturing performance to a high valued dollar, and low oil costs (globally)-- resulting in labor for manufacturing being too expensive in the USA-- THE EXACT THING WE HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT, and that tariffs are intended to help avert.

      Their opinion is not alone-- The economic policy institute has a rather lengthly report about it.

      http://www.epi.org/publication...

      To which they credit " nearly two decades of policy failures that have damaged its international competitiveness" as the primary causal factor behind the massive reduction in US manufacturing. What policy decisions have been enacted in the past 20 years? Various free trade agreements that removed trade tariffs.

      It further states that manufacturing accounts for only 8.8% of the US's labor force. Meaning that most americans are not employed doing manufacturing, but in some other industry.

      Yet somehow, despite the massively disproportionate segment of the US labor force that is allocated to service providing, industries seeking service workers (No, software is NOT a manufacturing job. it is a service job.) "Simply cannot find qualified applicants!" Perhaps we aren't training enough people to meet those needs? No-- the NYT seems to feel otherwise.

      http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04...

      The costs of attaining a college degree are spiraling out of control, while the benefits of getting one diminish, due to labor force saturation. This is because there is out of control demand for college education, coupled with lackluster pay once it is attained. Basically, the service industry in the US does not want to pay for the education requirements it is demanding, and is leaving hopeful applicants holding the bag.

      Instead, the service industry leadership wants only the cream of the crop, so to speak, of the potential applicant pool. It demands only the very finest caviar, and wants to pay cheesewiz prices. (Why not, it can get caviar for the price of cheezewiz elsewhere!)

      This comparative difference in labor rates is ALSO controlled innately by tariffs, and prevents this kind of labor shopping-- at least as far as outsourced labor is concerned.

      Now that I have buried you under a pretty substantively sized wall of text with some citations and opinion pieces by bonafide economists, perhaps you can be a little more forthcoming in how my interpretation of your rhetorical question is so clearly "Wrong", yes?

    9. Re: Free movement of labor for other jobs... by wierd_w · · Score: 1

      On the contrary.

      If you properly impose a tariff, which includes yearly limits on quotas of imported goods, you put the imported good artificially at the same or very similar market price as the locally produced product.

      EG, in your example of 4$ per pound cotton textiles, the government artificially raises the price of that import via the tariff, making it say-- 19$ per pound once it gets to the market.

      People don't stop wearing clothes just because the price goes up. Instead, they start looking more strongly at quality. They don't have the disposable income (everything costs more) to waste on crap clothing that they have to replace every year. Instead, they see the value in purchasing the clothing made with the higher production quality that lasts longer, This increases the demand for the higher quality product, and with increased demand, go increased opportunities for investment--- aka, JOBS.

    10. Re:Free movement of labor for other jobs... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The types of tariffs you describe are terrible and hurt everyone in the long run and are horribly distortionary. (Ask any credible economist, or if you're talking to a dipshit that doesn't like economists spin some dipshit narrative about govt picking winners)

      Tariffs are for offsetting other harmful activity like dumping, or protecting industries vital to national security (See recent activity about the steel industry and Chinese steel- Steel builds battleships, tanks and army bases as well as skyscrapers and cars.)

      Tariffs to protect local jobs just saddle you with inefficient industries - It's cheaper to retrain your workforce and pay a bit of unemployment. The efficiency of trade is staggering.

      Just don't forget to help the workers that lose their jobs to trade - If you don't they start voting for people like Trump and Sanders.

  5. Suspect a trap... by wierd_w · · Score: 0

    I have not read issa, but i suspect that it is a trap. Big issue the general public wants, wrapped around some onerous provision for even deeper anal penetration by thier real constituents, monied interests, and corporations. Perhaps even carte blanc for a tla or two.

    That seems to have been the major play the past 30 years. Anyone read it yet?

    1. Re:Suspect a trap... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      of course, the carte blanc is only temporary and it's needed because of all the job killing regulations

  6. As the child of legal immigrants by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As the child of legal immigrants, I have to say that while I applaud this move, I really hope that we can get some common-sense immigration reform. In the meantime, the president and the executive branch should do their jobs and enforce the laws that congress has passed.

    1. Re:As the child of legal immigrants by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you wan't credibility never use "common-sense" before any issue. Also, be specific. Enforce what laws?

  7. It's obvious it won't accelerate offshoring by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    it's already much, much cheaper to hire over seas. Adding the expense of bringing someone over on an H1-B doesn't help. If companies didn't have a reason to use the H1-B program then they wouldn't.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re:It's obvious it won't accelerate offshoring by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah.... But half of my department are h1b or some sort of opt/ept graduates, so this would fuckin kill my startup. No way can I pay 100K to someone with next to no experience.

    2. Re:It's obvious it won't accelerate offshoring by lgw · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yeah.... But half of my department are h1b or some sort of opt/ept graduates, so this would fuckin kill my startup. No way can I pay 100K to someone with next to no experience.

      There's a whole country full of people with "next to no experience" - the country you're living in in fact, which should be quite convenient.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    3. Re:It's obvious it won't accelerate offshoring by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well then you dont have a viable business model and sjould be making kebabs at venice beach or whater Cali shithole you come from

    4. Re: It's obvious it won't accelerate offshoring by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Go hire some Americans then you rat bastard.

    5. Re:It's obvious it won't accelerate offshoring by wierd_w · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I hate to sound crude or callous, but--

      The government, nor the labor force are beholden to your vision of a successful startup. The labor you seek costs money. Even if it does not cost you, it still costs that money. Preventing abuse of h1b labor prevents the sideloading of that cost onto the rest of society. If your startup requires impossible wages (wages only possible via h1b or other wage shenanigans) then your startup is not really viable as a business venture. Hard thing to swallow, but that is the way it is.

      As an employer, the sooner you understand that you too have to negotiate at the hiring table, and that you can't get AAA+ talent for D- wages, the better. You are beholden to the economy, the same as the rest of us. We only succeed when we both benefit.

      My suggestion to you: hire new grads at new grad pay. Hire a small number of AAA+ people, and use them to improve the quality of your new grad workers. Set company goals that are attainable with that arrangement, and reward employees that exceed those expected goals.

      The age of getting the best while paying next to nothing are nearly gone forever. Plan for that future. Hire the lackluster, at lackluster pay, then improve them. Contrary to what you have been trained in MBA school, employees are a valuable asset that you invest in. If you are good to your people, they will be good to you. Treat them like disposable trash, and they will dump you in a minute, the soonest they can, and spit on your memory.

    6. Re: It's obvious it won't accelerate offshoring by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The incompetent you're responding to will NEVER follow your excellent advice. What you advise requires real leadership skills and experience. That guy just showed at the right VC party one night and got lucky. Suddenly he thinks he's a real CEO/Founder business man with something valuable to say. He's really just a clown dooming himself and his employees to the unemployment line.

      His startup should go out of business so that VC money he's wasting can be more efficiently redirected to something worth while. Good ridance to him!

    7. Re:It's obvious it won't accelerate offshoring by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah.... But half of my department are h1b or some sort of opt/ept graduates, so this would fuckin kill my startup. No way can I pay 100K to someone with next to no experience.

      H1-B's are supposed to be superstars filling high-skilled roles that you can't fill with locals.
      You just admitted yours have 'next to no experience'.

      I don't give a shit about your startup that can't be profitable without having slaves do your work.

    8. Re:It's obvious it won't accelerate offshoring by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then pay 65k to an American with next to no experience...there's no lawfully-imposed floor on them (well, minimum wage....LOL)...

    9. Re: It's obvious it won't accelerate offshoring by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, we need him to bleed the Vulture Capitalist even more as he spirals the drain, otherwise the VC won't learn his painful lesson, either. "Stop investing in companies that are run by people with bad ideas, which you can identify as those who start out by cutting the most valuable corners."

    10. Re:It's obvious it won't accelerate offshoring by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      Then go somewhere small, where there are people looking for jobs.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    11. Re:It's obvious it won't accelerate offshoring by xvan · · Score: 1

      That's the issue, 12K is the mid degree salary in my country. with 20K/30K you'd get the top (that doesn't want to leave the country). US salaries are ridiculous.

    12. Re:It's obvious it won't accelerate offshoring by Mashiki · · Score: 2

      If you are good to your people, they will be good to you. Treat them like disposable trash, and they will dump you in a minute, the soonest they can, and spit on your memory.

      That used to be the way of business before the age of the bean counters getting their fingers on everything and believing that workers are as disposable as a broken calculator. Hell one of the first jobs I ever worked at in the 90's had a pension plan, even for the people on the ground floor making $6.25/hr(today's min wage is $11.25). Good luck finding that now.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    13. Re:It's obvious it won't accelerate offshoring by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The labor you seek costs money. Even if it does not cost you, it still costs that money. Preventing abuse of h1b labor prevents the sideloading of that cost onto the rest of society

      Can you be a little more specific? Preventing "abuse" of h1b1 (i.e. closing labour market more than it otherwise would be) lowers efficiency of the markets and results in less production then would otherwise be. There is no "sideloading" of costs on the rest of society. If somebody works in the US, he pays taxes in the US. The US wins. Not every person in the US will be happy about it, but overall the US wins (see Ricardo's comparative advantage theory, see general supply/demand models and see, how "sidelining costs" work (or rather doesn't work) in them).

    14. Re: It's obvious it won't accelerate offshoring by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Me again, same AC as above: i agree with you conceptually but the order of things doesn't allow for what you're saying.

      First, they get VC money, then they hire h1b's with it.

      (then they make a bunch of buggy insecure slow crap code and go begging for more money at the next round of VC parties).

    15. Re:It's obvious it won't accelerate offshoring by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wouldn't be able to survive on 12K a year where I live in Minnesota-USA. When I had a salary of 25K, I was just only barely getting by and ended up taking on debt due to emergency expenditures. I had to double my income over that to be able to own a home.

      The raw numerical value of a salary is essentially meaningless for comparison purposes. The cost of living [at whatever baseline of life you want] in each location being compared has to be considered in the calculation.

    16. Re:It's obvious it won't accelerate offshoring by wierd_w · · Score: 2

      When you demand impossible education requirements for basic employment, you impose a significant cost on your potential applicants.

      Specifically, the cost of the education level you are demanding. It can easily enter triple digits, and take a third or more of a worker's lifetime to pay off, and is non-dischargeable.

      That cost is real. It does not go away when you hire H1B laborers. The local economy is still saddled with the debt created by this wasted educational burden. (Wasted, because you never had any intention of hiring those applicants anyway.)

      When you put a want ad out in the local job market, then purposefully ignore all applications that are local, so that you can hire a cheaper H1B, you are saddling the local economy with the difference in the cost of education, since the people that you caused to be trained by putting out your fake demand, now are unemployable, AND IN DEBT.

    17. Re:It's obvious it won't accelerate offshoring by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, except no one wants to live in you country, bro

  8. Sounds good on paper... by bobthesungeek76036 · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    The shop I work at is about 50% US workforce and about 50% off-shore. If this goes through, our shop will turn into a 0% US workforce and 100% off-shore...

    --
    Karma: Bad
    1. Re:Sounds good on paper... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Can you provide some details as to why this would happen and how?

    2. Re:Sounds good on paper... by bobthesungeek76036 · · Score: 2

      Can you provide some details as to why this would happen and how?

      Pretty simple really. Our shop isn't going to fork out 100K/year for US talent when off-shore talent is about 1/2 the cost...

      --
      Karma: Bad
    3. Re:Sounds good on paper... by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 2

      and in some time afterwards, when they realize that we have infrastructure that pretty much WORKS and they do not, they'll be back.

      yeah, its cheap in india. when the electricity works. and when the workers actually DO real quality work.

      let them go to india and china. once they realize that cost savings is not all there is, they'll be back.

      perhaps they need to truly learn the value of having us, the US born workers who know this country and how to get things done, be in their employ.

      I hope more companies do 100% offshoring work.

      they will learn that its not all roses.

      I think we need to experience more pain (damn) in order for us to get back what we all lost. and we ALL did lose; because if it did not happen to you yet, it will; and it most certainly is happening to people you know.

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    4. Re:Sounds good on paper... by srichard25 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Offshore has always been cheaper than H1B onshore. If it were possible to make it work with 100% offshore, then it would have been done already.

    5. Re:Sounds good on paper... by knorthern+knight · · Score: 1

      Howsabout forking out $60 K to Amercicans, rather than to foreigners?

      --

      I'm not repeating myself
      I'm an X window user; I'm an ex-Windows user
    6. Re: Sounds good on paper... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      H1Bs are not US talent anyway, so don't let the door hit you on the way out. At least this way we don't have to compete for housing with transient workers.

      Also, you don't have to pay US workers 100k, only the ones so "rare" that you have to import them from afar. Most high school graduates are fine with $10-$15 to start. Depending on local housing costs.

    7. Re:Sounds good on paper... by Swave+An+deBwoner · · Score: 1

      OK, so then why are they doing that now for the remaining 50% of their US workforce? What you say suggests that they would benefit even more right now from moving everything offshore.

    8. Re: Sounds good on paper... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Logic fail.

    9. Re:Sounds good on paper... by Bite+The+Pillow · · Score: 1

      Unless your 50% American workforce is all H1B workers, I don't think you understand this bill at all.

    10. Re:Sounds good on paper... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Can you provide some details as to why this would happen and how?

      Pretty simple really. Our shop isn't going to fork out 100K/year for US talent when off-shore talent is about 1/2 the cost...

      Your shop should move offshore completely then. And pay a tariff when trying to sell anything on a US market
      Or, better still, why have employees? The boss should do all the work themselves

  9. Goverment already does cost-of-living adjustments by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The government already does cost-of-living adjustments for government employees. How hard is that to apply to H1-B? Here in Detroit, $60K probably isn't a bad minimum for H1-B workers, but it's crazy low in the San Francisco Bay. Why not tie the minimum to the region?

  10. VISA program is GOOD. H1B is NOT. It is a joke by WindBourne · · Score: 1

    We need green cards to be given out for techs, while killing off the H1B.
    Hopefully, this will be addressed in the next CONgress, or perhaps in the lame duck.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    1. Re:VISA program is GOOD. H1B is NOT. It is a joke by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 2

      I don't think we need a visa system, either. you think we're UNDER POPULATED here in the US? maybe in the flyover states we are, but in the tech area hubs we are overcrowded in a way that is not beneficial to anyone but the corps, who prey on us like vultures.

      when we have locals who can't get or keep a job and you have 90% indians and chinese walking around in google, intel, cisco, facebook, twitter, etc - there is something really wrong, here. locals can't get work and we import people who don't really understand our culture and actively avoid being part of it, in fact.

      we have no right to hand out jobs to non-citizens when citizens are going hungry, begging to be hired. yes, its true, I speak from personal experience here.

      do we need more citizens? really? why would you think we need more people here? a lot of the world is overcrowded. are we supposed to be the world's solution by letting everyone come work and live here?

      I was dinged on some of my previous posts when people didn't understand what my beef was. let me be clear; most countries give preference to their citizens, first. for some reason, we do not and I think that's quite unfair. a US person can not go to india and just get a job. you just can't. but indians can come here and get jobs no problem. does that sound equal, to you? why do we have to take everyone in? we can't even feed ourselves, as a whole nation. we are not in any condition to open our doors and let more and more people in. and especially not 'guest workers'. again, we don't have those rights in other countries. I can't just go to places in europe or asia and find a job, even at pay lower than locals. there are laws that stop them from hiring non-citizens. but the US does not do that, we let anyone in and give them first chance over jobs before people who spent 50+ years investing in this country.

      most software and hardware jobs are not rocket science. we don't need 'the best and brightest in the world' to patch bugs and write for-loops. most of IT work is not genius-level stuff. and its clear when you walk around the hallways at places like the ones I mentioned that the people there are definitely not the brightest ones findable. they are average guys and girls, doing an average job. I can do that, too, but I can't get work because the companies have given up hiring locals and look to hire only h1b's. for even the simple software jobs, people like me can't get a company to hire them. and we all know why, too.

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    2. Re:VISA program is GOOD. H1B is NOT. It is a joke by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      We need green cards to be given out for techs,

      Why? What are we short on?

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    3. Re: VISA program is GOOD. H1B is NOT. It is a joke by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Please learn to fucking capitalize. It requires the brain to work harder to read what shit you're writing.

      What shitty phone or browser isn't doing it for you without effort?

      I resisted this post for several of your posts, but then you went all wall of text and that was it.

      If you wrote like that applying for a job from me, I'd think you're lazy or stupid.

    4. Re:VISA program is GOOD. H1B is NOT. It is a joke by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't think we need a visa system, either. you think we're UNDER POPULATED here in the US? maybe in the flyover states we are, but in the tech area hubs we are overcrowded in a way that is not beneficial to anyone but the corps, who prey on us like vultures.

      when we have locals who can't get or keep a job and you have 90% indians and chinese walking around in google, intel, cisco, facebook, twitter, etc - there is something really wrong, here. locals can't get work and we import people who don't really understand our culture and actively avoid being part of it, in fact.

      we have no right to hand out jobs to non-citizens when citizens are going hungry, begging to be hired. yes, its true, I speak from personal experience here.

      do we need more citizens? really? why would you think we need more people here? a lot of the world is overcrowded. are we supposed to be the world's solution by letting everyone come work and live here?

      Maybe they actively avoid being part of your culture because they realise that at any one moment, they could be deported back to their own country? Give them the option of staying in the country permanently (and bringing along their immediate family - i.e. wife and kids) and they will want to integrate into the culture.

    5. Re:VISA program is GOOD. H1B is NOT. It is a joke by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes but not ONLY to fucking Indians. Racist fucks who only help each other and suck up the entire quota.

    6. Re: VISA program is GOOD. H1B is NOT. It is a joke by Martin+Blank · · Score: 1

      Desktop browsers don't capitalize by default. Some of us still use them. (Some of us also know where the Shift keys are and learned to type somewhere along the way, even if it was only using Mavis Beacon.)

      That said, I've roundfiled plenty of resumes where the person clearly didn't bother to do any spell- or grammar-checking.

      --
      You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
    7. Re:VISA program is GOOD. H1B is NOT. It is a joke by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good god this is one of the most entitled posts I've read in slashdot in 15 years ...

      1) Indians can't just come and get jobs in the US. Indians require a visa to even visit most countries as tourists - you think getting H1B is easy? You should really fucking get off your high horse over there .. The entitlement mentality is fucking unbelievable.
      2) And if you think you're so hard done by, get the fuck off your ass, go to Africa, Europe or Asia, and get a job. If half of what you say about your talents is correct, you'll live pretty damn well. And if you're unwilling to move around or many any sacrifices, then sit and whine, why not!

      And before you ask, I'm a green card holder living in Europe - not that it matters.

    8. Re:VISA program is GOOD. H1B is NOT. It is a joke by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I work for Google and there are constantly great Ph.D. theses where we hire the inventor to integrate their thesis work into our products. Here's an example of an area that can have major impact on our products and at the same time there is typically one person out there (the Ph.D. student) who knows the topic well and understands all small nuances of it.

      There might be a few people out there who can digest the material and gain a similar level of understanding of it fairly quickly. However, these tend to be distinguished researchers in the field. If we throw money at them to move to us, someone else loses them, so it's not a net win. There simply isn't experts that you can hire.

      Just the fact that you don't work on anything remotely complicated enough, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

    9. Re: VISA program is GOOD. H1B is NOT. It is a joke by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My country and my government is supposed to work for me, not for citizens of other countries. Other countries citizens don't pay their salary, and they don't elect them or are not supposed to and they dumped a lot of their refuse on us. Why does a congressman or Senator prefer foreign citizens over me, the person who pays their salary to work for me? How long would an employee of Burger King last if he spent a great deal of his time on the clock trying to work for McDonald's? This kind of idiocy can only happen in government, and for the most part happens mainly with the American government. We have 98 million people out of work. The false notion that no company can hire someone here is patently ridiculous. How many t-shirts does Mark Zuckerberg need?

    10. Re:VISA program is GOOD. H1B is NOT. It is a joke by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      I work for Google and there are constantly great Ph.D. theses where we hire the inventor to integrate their thesis work into our products. Here's an example of an area that can have major impact on our products and at the same time there is typically one person out there (the Ph.D. student) who knows the topic well and understands all small nuances of it.

      Google has offices all over the world, so this is a ridiculous argument at best. Even if you did need them to be face to face, there's no need for anything more than a temporary work visa for that purpose. Got any better explanations than that one?

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  11. Nice try by gabrieltss · · Score: 1

    It's a nice try - but it'll NEVER pass much less get signed by Oblahblah! Too much BIG $$$ in politics! Politicians ONLY listen to $$$!

    --
    The Truth is a Virus!!!
    1. Re:Nice try by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Typical republitard, probably a trump zombie as well.

      Maybe the president is smart enough to know that this "loophole closer" is a lie and won't actually help you. AT.ALL.

    2. Re:Nice try by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Typical libterd! You need to learn that Democrats and Republicans are BOTH controller by the same people! You're a SHEEP and a LEMMING! Either wake up or take your "black capsule" and do society a favor!

    3. Re: Nice try by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If that were the case he'd wholeheartedly endorse it.

  12. it is by fubarrr · · Score: 1

    Here is my experience interning with a big American dotcon whose name starts with letter G 5 years ago: Truckloads of Russian speaking product people with minimal technical literacy and only basic knowledge of English supervising B visa temp "consultants," who themselves supervised offshore sweatshops. My work there was to be a "technical interpreter" while I was originally told that I will work as a "developer mentee." I got an impression that most of "developers" in American "Big IT" are just glorified product and project managers overseeing overseas coding sweatshops. The very few who did code, were basically gluing big chunks of code prepared for them overseas and working with high level SDK libs.

  13. Good example by Trachman · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Your example is a perfect example for unintended consequences of each and every government's decision.

    I can give one more example. There may be some bona-fide less desirable locations with low wages, that do have difficulty attracting qualified personel. This will be a burden for some organization in the midland of America trying to hire a skilled worker.

    That being said, every law will have consequences, the outcomes that the politicians would not want to think about it. Here are the few: the limit of $100K does not appear to be indexed to inflation. Which means that in a decade the new limit of $100K will become what is now $50K.

    As others already mentioned, some jobs a highly telecommutable. IT, accounting, calling centers are frequent examples, but there are many more. Because of never ending increases in taxes (local property taxes), workers demand 2-3% annual raise, annually compounding corporate costs. Basically, because of the increasing taxation and now mandatory health tax increase (wait for 2017 enrollment period), more companies will be looking for ways to cut the costs and will outsource the jobs.

    Even president Trump with his promises will not be quick to help.

    Finally, US will become less desirable destination to study. Which is a good thing, of course, because it will help to prick current US study cost bubble, as less foreigners (paying full price) will come to study to the USA.

    All in all, increase is probably a good thing. However the blowback will be very different from what people expect.

    1. Re:Good example by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the limit of $100K does not appear to be indexed to inflation, or at least that's how it appears to me because I couldn't be bothered to read TFA.

      FTFY

    2. Re:Good example by Martin+Blank · · Score: 1

      Which means that in a decade the new limit of $100K will become what is now $50K.

      You're expecting wages to rise at ~7% annual rates over the next decade? What info do you have that the rest of us don't?

      --
      You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
  14. Simple Reforms Needed by crow · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Just make two simple reforms:

    *) H1B visas convert to Green Cards after two years.

    *) Limit them to no more than 5% of the workforce for any work site.

    1. Re:Simple Reforms Needed by barc0001 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I had a suggestion for simple reforms to Canada's Temporary Foreign Worker program that was being similarly abused, except it wasn't limited to tech workers. Specifically the TFW program was set to for companies that couldn't find Canadian talent to fill roles. It was meant to be used for things like say a high end Indian restaurant needed to bring in a chef from India with 30+ years of experience, but instead was used to replace teenage cashiers at McDonalds franchises.

      My suggestion was very simple: If you cannot find a worker for a particular job, you apply to the TFW program for a permit to hire a foreign worker to fill the slot. The government does market studies and knows what an average wage for that position is and to fill it with a TFW, the company will pay 150% of the average wage for that position to get that worker into Canada and employed. The company pays the ministry the worker's 150% wage and then the worker receives a cheque from the government at the average wage for that position as per the market study. The excess monies are used to pay for operation of the TFW program and also to set aside grants to train Canadians to fill these worker deficiencies.

      Another reason the pay goes through the TFW office was that there were several cases of the workers being underpaid once they arrived here, or in one particularly egregious instance, a McD's franchisee was also acting as the landlord for his TFWs in a house he owned and would "helpfully" pre-deduct rent and utilities from their paycheques.

      I'd be willing to bet that if the TFW and H1-B programs enacted this simple reform, the demand for foreign workers would plummet like a stone and it would still leave the door open for those businesses that actually cannot find someone in-country for a particular job.

    2. Re: Simple Reforms Needed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The first one is what an O1 legit talent visa is.
      The second is better handled by adding 20% to the floor wage for each additional h1b. That way a mall business can still hire one. But body shops get blasted.

    3. Re:Simple Reforms Needed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's actually a very good idea. Too bad they'll never adopt it, because the program is not meant to benefit the people or the country.

      TFW is just another government favour that is purchased by big business. If it gets changed, big business is sad and threatens to stop supporting that politician's campaign and instead support a competing politician who will be a good lap dog.

    4. Re:Simple Reforms Needed by slew · · Score: 1

      Actually, the H1b program was *supposed* to work like this. Unfortunately, there are big fat exemptions to having the market wage determined on a case basis:

      1. Just pay them over $60K/year
      2. Have a masters degree or better
      3. Don't hire more than 15% H1bs in your company
      4. Hire a bunch of people under the same *nominal* title and share the wage certification determination between them.

      You can easily use #1 in a high wage area like SF bay or NYC...
      Diploma mills make #2 pretty easy
      Big US based consulting companies like IBM and Accenture push #3 to the limit
      Infosys/Tata/etc drive trucks through #4...

      I think bill is made to address #1 by jumping the number to $100K and indexing it to inflation, and eliminating #2. It doesn't really address #3 or #4 at all.

    5. Re:Simple Reforms Needed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I like the workforce percentage limit better than the salary threshold.

      We recruit undergraduates (whose starting salary is under $100k unsurprisingly), without regard to where they're from. Sometimes they're not U.S. citizens, and they came to the U.S. for college. The only practical way we can hire them is via the H1B process. Their student visa only lets them work here just about long enough for the H1B process to kick in.

      But they only make up a fraction of our work force, so a percentage limit would be fine. I don't know if that would address, say, Disney's outsourcing of a few thousand IT jobs, though.

      On the other hand, maybe they could just fix the idiotic student visa thing. Why wouldn't we let someone stay and work who's been trained at our universities?

    6. Re:Simple Reforms Needed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      100K still won't completely fix the issue, especially on the West Coast. The H1-B will be still your personal slave, working long hours, can't jump to another company, and having no social life in fear of being deported...and therefore is better than an American.

    7. Re: Simple Reforms Needed by HagbardCeline6909 · · Score: 1

      3) Stop tying H1-b visas to a company.

    8. Re: Simple Reforms Needed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Was that for sure McD's? That mirrors a story from Tim Hortons.

      McD's in my area do hire a ton of high school kids and seem to be predominantly white. It's places like Tim's and A&W that seem to have nearly all foreign workers. Whether they are family of franchise owners or not, I don't know, but seems to be much different than all my local Rotten Ronnies.

    9. Re:Simple Reforms Needed by godrik · · Score: 1

      The H1B fees in the US go to public education. Though, it is not 50% of the salary of the employee.

    10. Re:Simple Reforms Needed by Solandri · · Score: 2

      in one particularly egregious instance, a McD's franchisee was also acting as the landlord for his TFWs in a house he owned and would "helpfully" pre-deduct rent and utilities from their paycheques.

      There's actually a legit reason for doing this. When a company provides living quarters, that technically counts as additional income (at least to the IRS - I assume the same is true for CRA). You're supposed to pay taxes on it. Sometimes the employee doesn't report that income on their taxes. When the company reports it to the government, the employee ends up being audited and having to pay "additional" taxes they didn't know they owed.

      Having the company deduct it from the employee's paycheck makes the numbers balance in the company's books, the government's books, and the employee's books. This is particularly important if the company is giving the employee the room at below-market rates. Without the company backing up the employee on how much they're charging, the IRS can get finicky and declare that the value of the room is the market rate for rent in the area, and force the employee to pay taxes on that higher amount. That's why I know about this. When I worked at a hotel, we would always get a few high school grads working for us temporarily as part of their "go out and travel the world" phase (so they had no place to live). We'd let them shack up in some of the more worn out rooms (renovation scheduled in a year or two) and charge them a token amount like $100/mo, pre-deducted from their paycheck just to keep the IRS happy.

      Not saying this was what was going on in the case you cite, but just pointing out that the act of pre-deducting rent is not in itself evidence of malfeasance, and may in fact be evidence that the company is trying to do the employee a favor. We didn't require these employees to live there, they just did because it was cheaper (and more convenient) than anything else they could find nearby.

    11. Re:Simple Reforms Needed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem with such schema in Canada, just like with H-1B, is that the prevailing wage is subject to a lot of abuse. The USA already has a visa that works very well for bringing in top talent -- the O-1 visa. The H-1B visa can, and should be cancelled in its entirety, along with the OPT visa. US citizen students graduate in droves not even able to find their first job in the tech sector because of the huge glut of US citizen talent. Firms like Google, Facebook, and most other SV tech firms basically try and drink from a firehose and have no meaningful way of differentiating good from bad talent in its application queues. Cancelling the H-1B, and forcing those rare "best and brightest" to apply for O-1 visas would fix most of the problems. As far as students on OPT internships, those really should be given to entry-level US citizen workers instead. There are huge numbers qualified as evidenced by high STEM unemployment rates.

      Large numbers of perfectly qualified and extremely honourable people have been damaged severely. There are many IT workforces which are practically devoid of US citizens under the age of 37-38 or so (ie: corresponding to the last time US firms hired US citizens in any significant numbers in the late 1990s). Over a decade of grads basically thrown away by the industry is an absolute shame to the industry and its out of control H-1B abuse.

    12. Re:Simple Reforms Needed by Megane · · Score: 1

      I think you missed his implied meaning of "helpfully pre-deduct". As in it's not a line item on the paycheck or in any accounting system. Nor is it optional.

      --
      #naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
    13. Re: Simple Reforms Needed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How about limiting it to 0% since they're not supposed to be here taking our jobs away? 5 % becomes 10%, then companies spread the lie that being against having your job stolen is racist. Then Our Idiot politicians get behind it and it becomes a disaster.

    14. Re: Simple Reforms Needed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Again, we should be taking care of our own first. If we didn't have 98,000,000 citizens out of work, maybe imported workers would be a great idea. But we're in a very long recession. The idea that we have an obligation to take care of foreigners but not our own is ridiculous. My government should work for me, not foerigners. The student loan default rate which the government is involved in will go through the roof since all the money they spent becomes worthless when they can't find a job because the government is discriminating against them as a citizen IT worker for the ease and comfort of billionaires in Fortune 500 companies like Dillard's. Dillard's uses Indian H-1B workers in their it Department and they paid their CEO 500 million dollars last year. End the H-1B program.

    15. Re:Simple Reforms Needed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is good.

      We need and want the best and the brightest. Brain-draining the rest of the world works out REALLY well for us.

      We don't need to limit. Also, put in protections to they don't just churn at 1 year and 11 months.

    16. Re:Simple Reforms Needed by barc0001 · · Score: 1

      > This is particularly important if the company is giving the employee the room at below-market rates.

      HA Ha ha ha. ha. Trust me, that wasn't his motivation. At all.

      http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/mcdonald-s-foreign-worker-practices-face-growing-investigation-1.2607365

      "This housing complex in Lethbridge is referred to as 'the compound.' Local McDonald's employees said up to eight foreign workers live in each suite and they pay the franchise owner $400 per month each for rent. (CBC)

      The McD's franchise owner managed to make $3200 per suite per month. In LETHBRIDGE. That's like waterfront downtown Vancouver rent rates for a luxury condo.

      The only person the McDs franchisee was helping was himself.

    17. Re:Simple Reforms Needed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      doesn't work like that. H1B's should not be a replacement for local talent just because they can be imported cheaply. NOR should they be rewarded with residency for permanent slavery by being imported at sometimes HALF the wage or less.

      This rewards the companies with permanent slave employees and does nothing to help the H1B employees brought over into permanent slavery or local employees put out of a job.

  15. h1b by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    WTF difference will this make?

    If companies don't bring cheap labor HERE, then they will hire cheap labor IN PLACE, i.e. just keep them all in Bangalore and open up an office there. And when the Bangalorians wise up and figure out they can make more $, then companies will go to the next and possibly the last place on Earth for cheap labor: Africa.

    Follow the money, people. Or in this case, follow the cheap labor.

    ANd no, these offshoring corporations are not going to "learn a lesson", or "feel the pain" and suddenly confess their sins, wring their hands, apologize, and bring the jobs back. Once a job is gone, it is gone for good.

    LOL @ vword: "buzzards"

    1. Re: h1b by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Will the Africans do the "needful"?

  16. Mall shooting in Germany by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What Germany needs is common-sense gun control, an assault-style weapons ban and for the 2nd amendment to be repealed. Get the guns off the streets. Tell those conservative repukianz Germans that they don't need their metal dicks to feel safe. White men in Germany should be pretty ashamed of their gun culture.

  17. Current laws not enforced by l0n3s0m3phr34k · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Our government doesn't even enforce our current laws on H1B, what good would new ones do? A few months ago I got a "form letter" denial for a support job I applied for, didn't even get an interview. I had worked with this team for about three years, I knew their applications, escalation lists, support teams, ticketing system; in some ways I probably was more qualified than some of their current staff members. I was told by their management that they had zero actual control over HR's initial acceptance / cut system as all of the HR people are in another state thousands of miles away; HR (by unofficial policy) wouldn't take any local suggestions for who would be interviewed...the "process" didn't work like that. "The process" had HR giving them a list of pre-approved candidates, then HR would allow the local staff to interview them, and then HR would take it from there. After I got my form letter of rejection, I found an LCA for my job had been filed within a few days of my application. Using various H1B "job sites" in conjunction with the Department of Labor's LCA system, I found dozens of jobs in my area that never had any advertising on any job board, nor had any recruiters been contacted. These jobs went straight to H1B, they didn't even bother looking for a US citizen.

    Most frustratingly, there is no one to really complain to, no regulatory agency that will listen. Even when the law is broken...until it gets to the level of a Congressional hearing nothing is done. Even then, nothing happened to Disney, or SEC, or any of the other giant corps. A few donations to re-election campaigns via shadowy 501s and the issue is dropped every time. Sometimes I think the only solution is to destroy the staffing corps pushing this, and by that I mean literally set fire to the US locations of companies like Tata and Infosys.

    1. Re:Current laws not enforced by pr0t0 · · Score: 1

      Sadly, I think one of three things (or some combination) is going to stop this:

      1. (unlikely) U.S. services consumers will start asking the companies they do business with, how much of their IT staffing is met by H1B visa workers; and refusing to do business with them until the number drops to some acceptable level. This will put pressure on companies to stop cutting corners on IT labor expenditures.

      2. (a little more likely) The continuing demand for H1B workers will drive up the salaries and bring them back on-par with U.S. salaries, at which point it makes more sense to hire the American.

      3. (semi-sarcastically, most likely) IT jobs will be done by AI.

      --
      I'm sorry, but your opinion seems to be wrong.
    2. Re:Current laws not enforced by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 1

      I would personally volunteer to work as a 'secret shopper' for the government in order to weed out these bullshit companies that screw over our own people with this h1b crap.

      I'm qualified for a lot of jobs and I have a ton of who's-who names on my resume. I can do the job, in more cases than not. and yet, when I apply, its the same as you - some BS excuse and you never hear from them again.

      I would love to help weed out this unpatriotic selfish bastard companies and really sock it to them where it hurts, in fines and even jail time. if there is no pain, you don't change behavior.

      I've had to live on unemployment for a while, live on my savings for much much longer and I'm sick and tired of this crap. I'm qualified, I want to work and yet I can't get work. all around me are h1b's and I see tons of job listings. but no one hires me. and my peers, we're all in the same boat (so I know its not personal).

      I'd love to help be that secret interviewer. and when I get turned down, I should have the authority behind me (via the government) to have a full investigation done to SHOW ME the real proof of why I'm not qualified for this job.

      a few rounds of that hitting the papers and - PROBLEM SOLVED FOR GOOD.

      anyone else game to do this? lets start a movement!

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    3. Re: Current laws not enforced by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You need a whistle blower from the inside.

    4. Re: Current laws not enforced by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How old are you? Sounds like age discrimination. Over 40 and you aren't a culture fit anymore so you better be super specialized. Over 50...good luck, you better know someone high up.

    5. Re:Current laws not enforced by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most frustratingly, there is no one to really complain to, no regulatory agency that will listen. Even when the law is broken...until it gets to the level of a Congressional hearing nothing is done. Even then, nothing happened to Disney, or SEC, or any of the other giant corps. A few donations to re-election campaigns via shadowy 501s and the issue is dropped every time.

      There are laws on the books that allow criminal and civil action against people that violate fundamental rights, independently of the H1B laws. Fundamental rights include the right to ethical practice of law, and the right to ethics in business (both fundamental rights 'retained by the people' - 9th Amendment).

      Sooner or later one of these big businesses will piss off the wrong person - somebody that can actually afford to take legal action, spending millions of dollars and years of their life in the process, and the executives and lawyers working for that business will go to jail, or be sued for tens of millions of dollars. At that point the others will start to take notice.

      Until that happens, the sociopaths who typically end up in executive position will continue to make illegal actions - such as H1B abuse - the status quo.

    6. Re:Current laws not enforced by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1) post a list of companies. I have a boycott site. boycotth1b.com

    7. Re: Current laws not enforced by l0n3s0m3phr34k · · Score: 1

      My submitted resume doesn't have my age on it. My name IRL is very common, I don't show up until 5-6 pages of Google searches. There was no actual interview. Just an email from a unrepliable address, and then I found the H1B LCA on the DOL site. This is from a huge company with the word "American" in it too, which makes it even more ironic.

    8. Re: Current laws not enforced by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't you mean under 40? Young US citizens basically aren't wanted in the US tech sector.

  18. beware greeks bearing gifts by swell · · Score: 1

    It's odd that the richest person in congress would put forth this proposal. It's true that he has a democrat joining in the bill, but what's in it for him? There must be something evil hidden in the text that we haven't discovered yet.

    --
    ...omphaloskepsis often...
    1. Re:beware greeks bearing gifts by slew · · Score: 1

      It's odd that the richest person in congress would put forth this proposal. It's true that he has a democrat joining in the bill, but what's in it for him? There must be something evil hidden in the text that we haven't discovered yet.

      FWIW, Darrell Issa is a big advocate of Open Government as an analogy to Open Source and has partnered with Mark Shuttleworth to create the Open Government Foundation which makes Project Madison...

      You can question his motives, and disagree with his politics, but unlike other legislative efforts, typically for the ones that Mr Issa generates, you can generally inspect the process and look for bugs...

      Although Issa made his money long ago in the "please step away from the car" alarm business and nowadays makes most of his money from bond funds, I guess you never know what politicians have up their sleeves...

  19. Income Equalization is removing the offshore value by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    This comment won't address the low-cost labor question. It will cover the on-vs-off shore question.

    About 12 months ago, we benchmarked the Silicon Valley vs Bangalore salaries that we have across a 200 person organization.
      - Architect Level engineers had a fully loaded cost about 1/2 of the US engineers.
      - Mid-career enginers were about 1/3
      - Junior engineers were about 1/5 the cost.

    General salary increases in Bangalore are about 10%, US (and most western countries) is about 3%. Cost of living in Bangalore is generally a lot lower than Silicon Valley. The upshot is that senior engineers have a considerably better deal in Bangalore than Silicon Valley. In about 5 years, a senior engineer would have very different motivations for entering the H1-B game to get to the US. It's likely better for Silicon Valley to in-shore to a cheaper US geography (if there are sufficient skilled engineers).

    Most H1-B holders are also in the green-card process which skews things quite a bit. For those that aren't current, there is about a 5-8 year wait. When you are in that situation you need to be careful about transferring roles. However, most of the H1-B's that I have worked with are *NOT* underpaid, and are generally quite skilled. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but I haven't seen a grand conspiracy within the large companies I've been in. The engineer screening, interview and offer process is definitely not biased to "cheap labor".

    China has already priced itself out of the market as a low cost engineering center (unfortunately the West trained them well enough when they were cheap that now they can generally compete on engineering prowess with the rest of the world).

  20. Make it direct pay as well so there can't be kick by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    Make it direct pay as well so there can't be kick backs from staffing firms where on paper the works are being paid a lot more then they are really getting.

  21. Can you tell it's ELECTION Season??? by CAOgdin · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Do-nothing Darrell Issa is NOW concerned about H1B abuse, because people in his district (a high-tech hotbed North of San Diego) have been having their jobs overtaken by imported, lower-cost workers...conveniently, just before his performance is questioned by challengers for his Seat in the House of Representatives.
    He could've done this anytime in the past two (or four) years, but, no-o-o. He waits until he can make it a CAMPAIGN ISSUE to help his faltering reputation. His Democratic challenger is now approaching parity in polling, so, pull out the project he SHOULD have been working on for the past several years in office. But, schemer that he is, he's held it in reserve until it could save his butt...and he hopes you forget about all the butts of working who've lost their jobs because of his passive attitude toward constituents in prior years!

    1. Re:Can you tell it's ELECTION Season??? by CAOgdin · · Score: 1

      Oops: error correction: Last sentence: ...about all the butts of working PEOPLE who've lost...

    2. Re:Can you tell it's ELECTION Season??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do-nothing Darrell Issa is NOW concerned about H1B abuse, because people in his district (a high-tech hotbed North of San Diego) have been having their jobs overtaken by imported, lower-cost workers...conveniently, just before his performance is questioned by challengers for his Seat in the House of Representatives.
      He could've done this anytime in the past two (or four) years, but, no-o-o. He waits until he can make it a CAMPAIGN ISSUE to help his faltering reputation. His Democratic challenger is now approaching parity in polling, so, pull out the project he SHOULD have been working on for the past several years in office. But, schemer that he is, he's held it in reserve until it could save his butt...and he hopes you forget about all the butts of working who've lost their jobs because of his passive attitude toward constituents in prior years!

      Looks like Darrell has just found out that there is one thing that H1B's can't do: vote.

    3. Re:Can you tell it's ELECTION Season??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thanks for typing out the name in full. The summary left it out and I was wondering what/who the hell an 'Issa' was

  22. Even Easier by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    $100K per year application fee. If you really can't find americans who are trainable, you'll pay that much.

  23. Forget minium wage - auction them off by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Step 1) create 150k new job opportunities for American citizens by reducing the number of H1Bs by 150k.
    Step 2) auction off the remaining H1B slots so companies who truly need exceptional skills can get them, but at a market price

    1. Re:Forget minium wage - auction them off by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Step 2- Sell them at highest bidder first price, with Market price as the floor

    2. Re: Forget minium wage - auction them off by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It would disappear completely then and good riddance. They're not about to hire someone through a managed program like this unless they can pay them much less than the market rate, their cries of not being able to find anyone here to work notwithstanding.

  24. Overdue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is long overdue. I left software development 15 years ago when it became clear I couldn't compete with H-1B on salary. I have no regrets about the decision, but it would have been different if the playing field had been level.

  25. The exploitable will still be exploited by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Few H1-B employees are actually employed by the companies who directly benefit from their labor. Instead they work for staffing companies that take a rather large portion of the H1-B employees salaries. What I see happening here is the amount these staffing companies take increasing greatly, and the inevitable end-game of the agencies becoming wholly owned subsidiaries of the companies that have the most H1-B staff. In other words the economics still remain heavily slanted in favor of hiring boatloads of entry level H1-B staff.

  26. Two options: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Emigrate

    Cooperate

    Former means finding a country that would want you and is better (there ARE a few out there, esp as far as healthcare goes. But culture clash might be an issue.)

    By the latter I mean band together with your silicon valley unemployed brethren and start up your own company. It doesn't have to be a 'silicon valley' company trying to VC its way to stardom. It could be a contract firm to subcontract under other SV companies to provide services. If you guys can individually 'take a hit' as far as takehome pay goes, there is no reason you can't get a corporate health care plan and other benefits going to ensure you all have an acceptable quality of life. If you get ambitious and have a group of people you can truly trust (with equal stock shares per employee, and enough employee loyalty to ensure they will be sold back rather than sold off...) you could do other things like invest in real estate and company cars for commuting to work, using them as tax writeoffs against the business and manipulating the big corp benefits for all your collective little people.

    The only reason I am not doing this myself is all my little people are too busy scrambling for their corporate master's pocket change, and I actually have a better thing going working independently outside of the tech field (gave up on it around 5 years ago, as well as the replacement career, since the opportunities in both seemed to consider you easily replacable.) I don't make as much as I could have, and if the economy keeps going the way it is, I am going to be FUBAR, but the potential is there for others to compete if only they are willing to cooperate.

  27. Re:Goverment already does cost-of-living adjustmen by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 1

    Agree completely, but then they location-shop before body-shopping.

    Problem I have is small companies and other fields. I am in architectural empngineering, and there really are limited grads. We were willing to sponsor one person over the past decade, but the salary would destroy it. (He had one year of "internship" and would be starting around $65k in Los Angeles.). Worth it in the greater good, but a challenge none the less.

  28. get rid of the tied to the job part and force OT p by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    get rid of the tied to the job part and force OT pay for H1B's

  29. Pay For Fuck by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In "Silicon Valley" executive like Zuk get Sucks 4 Fucks by the H-1B slaves.

    Raising the "Bar" to $100k does nothing for pervs like Timmy Cook (Apple) and Zuck (FB) and a thousand others perverts.

    Sad But True, It's U.

  30. Re:Goverment already does cost-of-living adjustmen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    H1-Bs are supposed to be highly skilled. I live in the Detroit Metro area. 60k is what you pay a fresh college grad with a STEM degree, even in Detroit.

  31. It is not just . . . by rbannon · · Score: 1

    . . . IT and private industry that misuses the H1B system. In Monterey, CA there’s a school called Defense Language Institute (run by Uncle Sam himself) that employs a boatload of H1B visa holders and they are being treated very poorly in both pay and work conditions. That is, our own government is breaking the law with regards to H1B visa holders, so please don't expect them to fix it. Apples to Apples, the DLI worker works twice as much for half the pay compared to other colleges in the immediate area. God forbid one of their H1B visa holders gets uppity, they'll be summarily shipped back the very next day at the worker's expense. Monterey is a really expensive place too, and I have witnessed 50+ year old professors working 60 hours week year round living in poverty. Yikes!!!

  32. In order to makeit lasting,,, by rholtzjr · · Score: 1

    I believe that in order to make it a lasting reform is to make the minimum for foreign wworkers a percentage above the local standard industry wage. This would ensure they actually TRY to find a local professional instead of saying they did and replace all the employees with cheaper foreign labor.

  33. Re:Goverment already does cost-of-living adjustmen by wierd_w · · Score: 1

    65k is princely in other parts of the country. Is the cost of the loss of in person business meetings so high, that the value of a telecommuting architect is totally lost?

    Your applicant does not need to be local. Just easily able to collaborate. It may seem strange, but there really is high speed internet, and people interested in becoming architects in the flyover land parts of the country, where costs of living are much lower, who would be willing to work for a much smaller wage than could be offered with a straight face anywhere on the coasts. People here routinely live on 30k a year. Dwell on that.

    The major obstacle these days is the office politics. The "need" for people to stand at attention when called into a room, and waste an hour or more listening to a poorly made powerpoint presentation about keeping the break room clean, or whatever other office politics shit has necesstated such a meeting. I work in aerospace. Most of my contacts are communicated with via email. They could be anywhere. As long as they respond promptly, and reliably, they could very well be on the moon, and I could still get my work done.

    There is no compelling reason for white collar work in the age of instant digital communication to be shackled to a specific location. That includes architectural firms. They can send you lovely proposals digitally. They don't need to be there in person, unless you value grandstanding in the boardroom over actual architectural ability. If thats the case, hire salesmen, not architects. They specialize in selling iceboxes to eskimos.

    Your inability to find somebody to work at below 60k/yr at entry level in your area just means you need to consider telecommuting, or branch offices. It does not mean you need to jam foriegn workers into the local labor pool, and drive up local costs of living even higher, just so that they can fill a seat in person.

  34. Require national job posting. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The government should create a job board, and if a company wants to hire an H1B worker, require them to list the job on the board for 120 days or until the job is filled domestically, and require interviews of qualified applicants as long as the job s not yet filled domestically. If they still bring in a foreign worker, require a specific explanation what the foreign worker has that was lacking in all the domestic applicants, and send a copy to each of the domestic applicants and the DOL.

  35. The part I hate the most is the job listing abuse. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We need young talent with 40 years experience in Java, wait make that 40 years experience in everything, including our in house software. Wait, no one qualified? We're legally able to out source now! I'm cool with being shafted and being unable to work despite being qualified. Just don't flood the job boards with impossible to fulfill jobs... Its almost like they want liars to be hired.

  36. I for one welcome our new outsourced overlords by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I see that you don't want well qualified developers coming to United States, paying taxes and consuming goods and services that you produce. What do you think is going to happen then, logically speaking? Better start learning Chinese if you still want to code.

  37. Re:Goverment already does cost-of-living adjustmen by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 2

    architectural Engineering. A starting electrical engineer with a Masters is around $60-65k in Los Angeles, more in Bay Area. Junior staff cannot be effective remotely; they do not work independently for a few years, and when they hit that mark they need to be helping to mentor the next generation.

    Senior engineers can be remotely with only limited loss in productivity, and mid-level can safely be remote a day or two per week. We do have a remote office, as well as one full-time remote employee. It works very well for some things, but going for a job survey on a day's notice is a little hard when you are a thousand miles away.

    We can find plenty of people, at salaries we are quite comfortable with. It is important to understand the cost of bringing one employee on board through the first few months of work though. It is rarely less than $50k, and often double or triple that for senior staff.

    As for flyover country, grew up there, went to school there, always happy to hire from there. Not especially interested in hiring people living there that can only be productive for 65% of tasks though, even if it is at a 50% salary discount. Too many additional costs that direct salary don't reflect.

  38. $60k minimum salary? by mentil · · Score: 1

    I seem to recall reading here about a study finding that ~90% of H1-B visas were given to people taking low-skilled entry-level positions. Are they really being paid $60k/year for that? Either entry-level IT positions pay way better than I remember, or something else is going on here.

    --
    Corruption is convincing someone that the selfless ideal is the same as their selfish ideal.
  39. Off-shore Off-shore Off-shore by Baldrson · · Score: 1

    Those who claim the US benefits by draining the best and the brightest from around the world are doing two things wrong:

    1) They bad liars. Everyone knows they just want cheap labor. Just cut the noise already and accept the fact that they may have to send some mangers overseas.
    2) Even if they happen to get someone particularly gifted to leave their native land and work cheap in the US, they're ignoring the negative impact this has on those -- usually developing -- economies which need their best and brightest in order to grow their economies to become importers of US goods and services.

  40. Re:Goverment already does cost-of-living adjustmen by wierd_w · · Score: 1

    It sounds like your rates in your high cost areas are not congruent with the actual costs of operating your business.

    Since you are doing surveys for new building constructions, and other essential civil engineering services for the locality you service-- remind your local civic authorities that lowballing you will result in their deadlines not being met, because you cannot keep the staff required to service their needs in a timely manner on the rates they are demanding. Your competitors will likewise be unable to meet these demands placed upon you, because the demands are unreasonable.

    Costs for certification and services rendered need to reflect the actual costs (including labor) of those services, otherwise business is not sustainable.

  41. Re:Income Equalization is removing the offshore va by godrik · · Score: 2

    I feel like lots of people here are seeing only one face of the H1B program. I got hired as an H1B and I am permanent resident now. Though I entered the US on a J1 program. When I entered the US, I did not even want to stay, then life being life, I decided too. I work for a university and there are not many qualified applicants.
    It is very unlikely that you would someone that is skilled and permanent resident or us citizen for a professor position. They pretty much just do not exists. There are some, but not many and definitely way less than opened position.

    I can understand that there may be issues in the H1B program. But there are legitimate use of it as well.

  42. Top grads can't even get interviews by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The H-1B program has made the situation in the tech sector so toxic for US citizens that even top new grads with high GPA's aren't getting called for interviews. And its been this way since the 2000-2002 implosion of the sector. Entire CS classes for years have gone unemployed or underemployed. Yes, there are people who make a lot of noise over a few tech companies in the SV who hire younger people and pay well (ie: Google, Facebook, etc.), but the applicant to hire ratio at those employers is in excess of 2000:1. In other words, great for the lucky lottery winners, but really crappy for the rest of us who have had our careers destroyed by H-1B's.

    The worst part of the H-1B/OPT program is that a lot of great talent doesn't even get the chance to be noticed. Because we're sitting on the unemployment lines instead of going into the workforce and showing off our skills. As engineers, how do we even come up with solutions to domain programs if we're not being exposed to the domain? Maybe I can invent a better widget or improve a process somewhere, but because we've been essentially locked out by the employers using H-1B visas instead of actually bothering to pick up the phone and call us up, the economy suffers a huge loss.

    1. Re:Top grads can't even get interviews by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How about some real statistics for a change ?

      1- Unemployment in the tech sector is very small.. The unemployment rate in the tech sector is 2.5%. Whole classes unemployed ? who are you kidding? Show us the numbers.
      2- The tech sector is tiny. Excluding Manufacturing and Telecom, the tech sector represents 2% of the workforce. No surprise the politicians don't care much about it.

  43. The "not keeping up" is BS on other way too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I am an assembly guy foremost, then for my study decades ago I took up pascal, then later during my research fortran. I was hired also in a private firm for fortran. 6 month ago I was asked if I could switch to Java. You know how long it took me up to get the basic ? a few day. There are some subtlety it took me weeks , or maybe even month, to took on, but for the major part I was already doing production read code by the end of the first month.

    A new language is not that hard to learn when you already know a few from similar standard (in my case OOP) and understand how computer and types works. Sure there are stuff you have to learn like type conversion, buffers, but the most important paradigm like inheritance and extension, if you already know one such language, you are basically only learning a new syntax. The most important stuff, like how to transform a requirement into something algorithmic or implementable, does not change as much between languages as one would think. Respect the layer paradigm (gui layer/business layer/provider-low level layer) and you will be fine.

  44. Re:Goverment already does cost-of-living adjustmen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A typical engineering starting salary historically has been around 1/3rd of the cost of local housing. Can you buy housing in LA for $200k?

    Sounds to me like your $65k offer is totally inadequate. Which is why you should be denied visa sponsorship until capacity in your industry is constrained enough that salaries can be brought up to at least professional levels.

  45. I Call You A God Damn Liar by LifesABeach · · Score: 1

    Who ever said, "The high-skilled visa program is critical to ensuring American companies can attract and retain the world's best talent" is a god damn lair. Its about money. Public record shows it.

  46. No fallacy. H1B designed for geniuses, Kaku is one by raymorris · · Score: 1, Informative

    There's no fallacy of appeal to authority here, for two reasons. The fallacy of appeal to authority would be citing Michael Jordan's opinions on DNA editing, or Kaku's style preferences. It has the form:
    Proposition A must be true because person B says it is, and person B is authoritative in some field (but not the field in question).

    GP says "for more details", listen to Kaku's explanation in the video. There's no claim that Kaku must be right because Kaku is Kaku. Rather, Kaku explains and supports his position. The reader is encouraged to listen to Kaku's arguments, not assume that Kaku is always right.

    Secondly, the H1B program was *designed* to allow world-class people, top scientists and the like, to work in the US. Michio Kaku is a top scientist working in the US. Therefore he can be expected to have legitimate insight into the potential effects of losing his Nobel-winning colleagues to other countries. On the topic of eliminating the H1B program rather than fixing it, and therefore losing top scientists, Kaku does in fact have knowledge and experience that most of us don't have.

  47. Boycotth1b by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Everyone needs to boycott H1b companies.

    Put the list of known companies that use H1B's here. I'll make sure they get added to the boycotth1b.com web site.

  48. Re:No fallacy. H1B designed for geniuses, Kaku is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There are two separate issues here: visas for academics, and visas for tech workers (i.e. computer programmers).

    I am a physics postdoc, and I agree 100% with Michio Kaku. For academia in the fields of math/science/engineering, the US absolutely needs visa programs like H1B. Without them, all US universities will immediately go down the tubes. I have visited many universities across the US. In the physics departments, American citizens are the minority. It is mostly Europeans, followed by Chinese/Japanese, followed by Indian/Pakistani/Americans/Canadians.

    This is not because of some desire to hire the cheapest possible labour. This is because the most-qualified and most-talented people are from abroad. Why? Because the USA K-12 educational system is horrible. My father learned rigorous calculus, via epsilon-delta proofs, in high school in Germany. Today in USA and Canada, that stuff is taught in first-year undergraduate classes at a top-tier university, and in third-year undergraduate classes at a typical university.

    Perhaps a good solution would be to split up the H1B visa into two different types of visas: one for academics, and one for tech workers/computer programmers. That way, you could solve the problems of outsourcing in Silicon Valley without screwing over academia.

  49. H1-B visas are unconstitional by plopez · · Score: 1

    They amount to de facto indentured servitude which the US constitution bans.

    --
    putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
  50. Re:No fallacy. H1B designed for geniuses, Kaku is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Do you know why US citizens are a minority? Please do not confuse cause with effect! Cause #1 US citizens are Minority: Pay is shait. Reason for #1 is that there is no need to have higher pay if we can get indentured servitude. Cause #2 US Citizens are a Minority: Admission for all academic programs FAVORS foreigners... for Reason #2 is that International students pay DOUBLE the fucking price, and they are willing to do so because their respective countries are shit and they will pay any price to GTFO of there. Cause #3 US citizens are a Minority: Academic programs are seen as more desirable by foreigners and less desirable by US citizens. Reason for #3 is that PhD's are almost GUARANTEED H1B status (No lottery), and US citizens can make DOUBLE getting an MBA instead.

    So please eliminate all reasons and watch the paneling swing the other way.

  51. Sounds like most of you agree with Donald Trump by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    At least when it comes to protecting your incomes from competition.

    When it comes to allowing in immigrants from south and central America which affect the blue collars in the country I bet many of you are for open borders..

    sounds pretty hypocritical to me

    1. Re:Sounds like most of you agree with Donald Trump by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      wrong. moron.

  52. Re:Income Equalization is removing the offshore va by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is a joke posting right?

    "It is very unlikely that you would someone that is skilled and permanent resident or us citizen for a professor position. They pretty much just do not exists. There are some, but not many and definitely way less than opened position."

    -- unlikely that you would someone --? No idea what this means.
    -- pretty much do not exists --
    -- definitely way less than opened position --

    I'm sorry if english is your second language, hope good write skill not for job universities.

  53. Re: No fallacy. H1B designed for geniuses, Kaku is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Geniuses can already get into this country on L visas which have no quota. H1B is designed for average skilled employees.

  54. Re:Goverment already does cost-of-living adjustmen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    H-1Bs are NOT supposed to be highly skilled. That is not the purpose of the visa. H-1Bs are supposed to have a specialized skill, but not necessarily be highly skilled. We already have an "expert" visa for highly skilled individuals, the O-1 visa, and there is no cap.

  55. They missed even a bigger hole! by Contract+Gypsy · · Score: 0

    Since the Reagan era, annual limits have been set by the govt... but amazingly, they have always ignored the limit, typically by 40% or more each year. This crap will not stop until the Govt. nails big businesses genitals to the wall, unlike now where the businesses are doing the nailing! A year or so ago, in an open conversation with our Govt. representative, I asked about his opinion on H1B visas, he openly admitted that he had no idea what an H1B visa was. After the meeting, he asked me for my contact information so he could get back to me. The fuck never called, emailed, or wrote a letter back to me, I guess his genitals are hurting too badly to do so.

    --
    Life is in a state of dynamic equilibrium, it both blows and sucks
  56. Funny math or straight pay for that $100K? by Wokan · · Score: 1

    I've lost count of the number of times I've gotten letters from HR after discussing raises detailing (in words, not actual $ values) how my pay is so much more than what shows up in my bank account. There's the paid vacation time, how much they pay toward my insurance, sick days, other benefits I have absolutely no use for (but I'm sure someone convinced the company that for $X, they could claim it was worth $Y).

    Unless this bill says the H-1Bs are to get $100K (before taxes) in actual spendable money without counting any benefits toward that amount, it's just going to end up in a whole lot of gym memberships (as an example) in other states (to prevent actual use) "worth" $20K/year costing the companies $500/year.

    If they can pull this off, there may be some minor uptick in outsourcing, but there are still a lot of very insecure, untrusting, upper-level managers who want there to be a person they can physically get in the face of when they want to exert a sense of control. I note the continued resistance in businesses to institute telecommuting practices.

  57. Re:No fallacy. H1B designed for geniuses, Kaku is by mcgrew · · Score: 1

    listen to Kaku's explanation in the video.

    This country (and apparently everyone else's) has a terrible aliteracy problem. There's hardly any illiteracy, but the last I read, only something like 3% of Americans read a book last year.

    I for one do NOT want to see a talking head. A video that actually uses the video to demonstrate something is fine, but I can read five times as fast as you can talk and get a hell of a lot more out of it.

  58. Better kick them out and hire domestically soon. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    USA is already bankrupt by a lot of trillions. Soon Americans will be starving on their porches while their women are prostitutes.

    Ask the former Soviet Union if this happens. You could also watch Argentina and Venezuela news.

  59. Two instant solutions by saigon_from_europe · · Score: 1

    Two instant solutions:
    1) Remove H1B program and replace it with green cards. Most of H1B employees get green cards eventually anyway. If visa holders don't depend on company like they currently do, if they can change jobs at will, they have no reason to accept sub-par offers. One may do an investigation for what money green-card lottery winners work. I really doubt that they work for pennies H1B employees get.
    2) As there is more demand than allowed visas, there is some kind of lottery. Instead of lottery, give visas to companies that plan to pay the highest salaries.

    --
    No sig today.
  60. Re: Income Equalization is removing the offshore v by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We're seeing someone with limited Engwish skilz get pufesor position! That's exactly what we need to know. The people doing the hiring under this corrupt government program would sell their mother or their soul for just one more dollar in their pocket. Big Thanks to our wonderful federal government for enabling them to do so.

  61. Re: Sounds like most of you agree with Donald Trum by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No, not competition. Elimination. Huge difference. I am also not for illegal immigration from South America which also depresses the overall wage rate for American citizens.

  62. How's the UK market comparing? by illtud · · Score: 1

    Sorry to hijack a story to go on a tangent, but this may be one read by people I'd like to query:

    I'd be very interested to know how older (35+) IT workers (ops & dev) in the UK are feeling at the moment, eg:

    * My long experience gives me more confidence in my employability
    * I've kept up with trends, so I'm OK
    * My experience counts against me (eg "you know C", "you know UNIX", so you must be past it)
    * My age counts against me
    * There are no jobs going for my skillset
    * I'm doing fine, thanks!
    * Jobs I can do standing on my head don't pay enough
    * Where I choose to live (family or other ties) are scarce/don't pay enough.
    * I'd move for a job

    Please give some additional details if you reply. (yes, I do employ!)

  63. Albert Einstein and Linus Torvalds by NewYork · · Score: 1

    H1B was originally intended for extra-ordinary professionals like Albert Einstein and Linus Torvalds and NOT for http://sammyboy.com/showthread...

    1. Re:Albert Einstein and Linus Torvalds by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nope. The O-1 visa is what was designed for that level of talent. H-1B was for temporary guest workers not of extraordinary talent.

  64. Impose tax on revenues by NewYork · · Score: 1

    *) Impose tax on income, not profits for companies that hire H1B

  65. Whats the going rate for a good CISO ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Decent sized company.

    What ? 300k ? 800k ?