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US Finds New Secret Software In VW Audi Engines, Says Report (cnet.com)
An anonymous reader writes: It looks like Volkswagen's diesel scandal could keep rolling as reports claim that the automaker has three hidden software programs in its 3.0-liter engines. Concerns about the German car manufacturers' 2.0-liter engines could soon reach a conclusion, but the discovery of the hidden software has thrown the future of 3.0-liter diesels into uncertainty. That secret software in Volkswagen's 3.0-liter diesels can turn off the vehicles' emissions controls, Reuters reports, citing the German newspaper Bild am Sonntag. The emissions control system allegedly shuts off after 22 minutes, when most emissions tests take about 20. If this software does exist, it likely resides in all 3.0-liter diesels that Volkswagen sells in the U.S.. This includes the Audi Q7, Volkswagen Touareg and Porsche Cayenne SUVs. Approximately 85,000 of these cars are roaming around the US, and they're already under scrutiny for some software that VW "forgot" to tell regulators about.
It's all secret from the get go. I don't remember getting a source code dump with my car.
I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
Whatever punishment the government inflicts, it must exceed the profit these scams generated for VW.
Otherwise, the sociopaths at the top will just call it the cost of doing business.
Also: Watch out for VW trying to use the government penalty for a tax write-off (an old oil company trick).
US investigator - "So this is all the secret software right? There's nothing else?
VW spokesman - "Ja, all ist gut. No more verdammt testing software that we were dummkopfs for not disabling in a vollstandig understandable mistake."
US engineer - "Hey boss, we found three more programs that do similar shit in their 3.0 liter engines."
US investigator - "Johaaaaaaannnnn! You got some 'splanin to do"
Yeah, fuck witch hunts that uncover willful fraud. Oh, wait, that's not a witch hunt at all.
I don't see a problem with going after VW as long as they check other brands later too.
You don't let a robber go free just because you haven't caught all murderers yet.
As long as it isn't done to just protect local companies from foreign competition it doesn't really matter if which of them they start with.
That's right. The chariots of the upper middle class should be exempt from the regulations they impose on their subjects.
Maw! Fire up the karma burner!
The EPA doesn't enforce emissions on individual vehicles. That's the states and the local police's job. The EPA is doing their job. This is not a "witch hunt". This is a "fraud hunt".
I don't respond to AC's.
Except those idiots are not really having much impact either. Its the rest of the people driving around much larger vehicles than they need all the time that matter. Lets just shit can CAFE standards entirely and start taxing people individually on their actual impact.
by-annual E-check - done on the dino at the tail pipe
1) measure fuel consumed over the test miles driven (to determine current fuel economy)
2) measure the PPM of interesting emissions in exhaust NOx, CO2, CO, others?
3) calculate the approximated amount of these gases emitted by using the current measured fuel economy, measured PPM of each type of gas and multiplying by the miles driven based on the odometer between this and the previous E-check.
4) apply tax rates for each gas emission type - bill the vehicle owner!
Do NOT fail anyone for a check engine light, high emissions etc, just notify them and let them pay the taxes. They will get it fixed before the next check or they will heavily again! This will incentivize individuals to actually maintain their vehicles, choose the most efficient vehicle that meets their needs because driving everywhere in their Suburban will cost more than driving a Sonic per mile in taxes. Yet by not actually limiting emissions people who actually *need* big stuff can still get it/operate it. The market will demand manufactures sell vehicles that don't result in high tax bills.
Do not make exceptions for classics etc, every vehicle gets tested every vehicle gets taxed.
Could individuals cheat by flashing their EFI control modules etc before they have their test and then putting it back after, well yes but they can do that kinda stuff in places that do checks now anyway. The smallish number of individuals that cheat won't amount to much.
Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
To save you a click-through, the three hidden programs are:
- Bing Search Bar powered by Bing
- Norton Anti-Virus one year trial version
- Candy Crush Saga
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
I do systems engineering work. The worst I've ever been asked to do is hack together a completely unrealistic demo environment or two, basically to give our developers time to fix something they're showing to a customer. I feel bad when customers get sold something that barely functions in the real world because of it. I can't imagine what the actual engineers who got asked to implement this "workaround" were thinking at the time. Germany has one of the best engineering cultures on the planet, so I can't imagine they felt too good about this. I can only guess their jobs were threatened -- in the US it would be something like "If you can't work 90 hour weeks, I can certainly find an H-1B who can..." Unfortunately, in any culture, having no income and a family to support is a pretty good incentive to just do what the boss says.
It'll be interesting to see what happens -- having to recall/buy back basically all of your modern diesel cars is not a cheap proposition. I work with German companies all the time for my job, and I can't imagine they don't have meticulous records of email cataloged down to the millisecond showing who put this in motion. Again, part of the culture. It will certainly be an interesting case study for MBAs, if they actually studied stuff like this in business school. (I would assume the MBAs would be doing this case study to find ways to not get caught.)
You think that vehicles that may do only a few hundred miles per year should be treated the same as vehicles typically doing over 10,000 miles?
The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
Nope -
Lambo hover boards: http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/free-shipping-electric-balance-scooter-lowest_60450460206.html?spm=a2700.7724857.0.0.MFbOVk&s=p
Close, but no cigar!
Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
Do you own stock or something?
If you dont fine them greater than the profits generate how do you get them to stop?
When you cant win, ad hominem.
Explain to us all what a modern OS like Windows or Linux is... except a bunch or routines hierarchically executed.
- These characters were randomly selected.
So now that we have discovered that the software manipulates the data in their cars, we are supposed to be surprised that they did this in all of their cars? How stupid are we to pretend that only some software cheats, while other software does not because the superior engine design in other models doesn't need to cheat to meet emission standards. So it turns out they lied about the superior engines too! Oh horrors! You mean there is no superior engineering that enables engines built in Germany to out perform the laws of physics, as well as every other car that already lies about mileage, emissions, and performance? What is world coming to? Its the German's fault we have all of this air pollution because all of this time we were burning gas just to sit in gridlock, we had been told that the fuel exhaust that comes out of a VW's ass doesn't stink. Not only did they lie to us, they are the reason why we burn so much gas. We almost evolved into a fat legless mammal with great driving ability in gridlock, but now we have fallen into the pits of diesel hell, where high performance German engines get the same shitty results from burning gas as the other German cars, Norwegian cars, and even French cars, but not as good as the Japanese or Korean cars, but way way way better than any American car because we're busy being great again. Those fuckers! They've ruined civilization with miles of highways and hundreds of millions of cars that just belch out toxic fumes all day so that we can sit in traffic! We would have all bought Tesla's if it wasn't for that lying cheating software that made numbers come up on a smog report that nobody really understands when they are accurate. How could they deceive an entire planet of people that had no intention of burning fuel that pollutes the air. WE COULD HAVE HAD TESLAS! But noooooooo its all VW's fault for fooling us with software that just makes shit up and lies to every American man woman and child at NASCAR. Damn savages!
Why should they be treated any differently? Perhaps you missed this, from the GP: "...multiplying by the miles driven based on the odometer between this and the previous E-check..." So, even if that classic is polluting 10x the new car, if it's driven 1/100 the miles, the bill will be 1/10 as much. Seems fair.
"National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
It's a low grade IQ test.
Anybody who bought the heaviest Porsche available failed and should have his/her speed electronically limited for life. They will likely never notice.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
the automaker has three hidden software programs in its 3.0-liter engines.
That's one software per liter!
Grats, you just fucked poor people who can't afford better cars and gave rich people that make enough to not care a free pass.
A bullet may have your name on it but splash damage is addressed "To whom it may concern."
Lamborghini motor scooters?
Lamborghini tractors are already a thing.
Have gnu, will travel.
Really, I think its all rather insignificant. It doesnt jeopardize consumer safety. People act like this is some kind of huge fraud, But I dont think it is, because the consumer still gets a car that is safe as advertised. Also, if you are really concerned about safety, the emissions related COLA restrictions are not your friend. Studies of COLA have shown that they actually decrease passenger safety in cars because heavier, more rigid metal body components are eliminated which leads to less protection for passengers.
Have gnu, will travel.
Look I know my local economy would suffer a lot (I live in germany) but there is a limit. This seem to be outright fraud, just after another scandal ? That reek of corporate corruption to the highest level. And no excuse : after a first software cheat was found, an audit should have uncovered any further cheats. This can only have had the tacit or implicit high level complicity.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
It's hard to engage in jury nullification when there's no jury involved. Even more so when you'd be hard pressed to assemble 9-12 random people who'd agree with you.
Did you object to the BP settlements as well, or is your issue merely that NOx pollution isn't as gross as oil-coated animals and shorelines? They get an "orange haze is pretty" discount?
When companies begin cheating the system by hiding their dirty secrets in the ECU's (Engine Control Unit's) binary, it seems like the proper response to this is to begin mandating that binary in the ECU be 100% open source and able to be built with open source tools. This way, the binaries can be verified as being representative of the source code and the source code can be inspected by anyone.
Continuing on like we have will only yield the same result because the best predictor of future actions are past actions.
Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
I'm sure the secret software was just there to make sure it met the emission testing specifications. No way it could be anything nefarious. *cough*
Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
How high a fine would be fine?
A fine that doesn't make it impossible to simply tack it onto the car price would simply be part of the manufacturing cost.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
It seems like you overlooked this part of the poster's comment; "multiplying by the miles driven based on the odometer between this and the previous E-check."
A vehicle that's driven only a few hundred miles per year would already pay an order of magnitude less than a vehicle doing over 10,000 miles per year. Why would they need further benefits?
So are Lamborghini tractors, what's your point?
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Wrong target... where's my coffee...
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
In addition to the drastically higher of pollution their cars have been spewing for years, millions of people bought these under false pretenses and will now be saddled with weaker acceleration, reduced fuel efficiency and severely lower resale value (in fact the bulk of the settlement is reserved for to fund buybacks of the vehicles at pre-scandal prices). And that doesn't take into account federal and state tax deductions and credits that were fraudulently secured or the cost of the investigation and lawsuits themselves.
This was egregious and deliberate fraud at a global scale. It deserves a harsh response.
US Finds New Secret Software In VW Audi Engines
Well that's a good place to hide it. I normally look for software in a computer or the like. I'd never think to look in a engine!
Maybe they're applying the same engineering principles they used to make King Tiger tank turrets in WWII.
That depends on the cost-per-emissions, but it would certainly leave poor people with older cars paying more than new car owners. This is why many laws have exemptions for older vehicles.
And on that note, the idea rewards wasteful people who change their car every few years, as a massive fraction of the car's lifetime environmental impact is in the production of the car....again a good reason to give older cars a break - that cost is already sunk and driving the car longer increases the interval to the next car being produced.
You may recognize these environmental incentives as being very bad for a laissez-faire capitalist economy because it discourages people from buying more junk for no good reason. This is true, as long as the environment is an externality, capitalism is an environmental suicide pact.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
All of our secret software ist now removed from the vehicles, und wir will nacht make more.
Ignore the one that says "detect plug und emit zilch", das ist only for playing ze games on de dashboard.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
Rolls Royce pickups are actually a thing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
Typically, yes, but there are very high-end ECUs which can actually run multiple *programs* - for example F1 ECUs have separate programs to manage the KERS & TERS systems, sometimes they crash while the car is running and that's when you hear the drivers and crew talking about resets.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
Grats, you just fucked poor people who can't afford better cars and gave rich people that make enough to not care a free pass.
Grats, you just discovered how capitalism works.
And we will get to read more about other hidden subroutines. But America's businesses can govern themselves, just vote with your wallet. I cannot help but wonder on the price of Smack Lights. Why? DOJ can't see anything illegal about lung disease.
Just ask them to apologise.
But this isn't like internet service, there's actual choice in car buying, and when they raise prices to cover the cost of their penalty, they will sell fewer vehicles.
Stupid sexy Flanders.
WTF is next... Rolls Royce pickup trucks?
We have had Rolls Royce buses - well, buses with Rolls Royce engines.
If the odometer readings indicate it was only driven a few hundred miles the taxes will be essentially nothing
Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
the idea rewards wasteful people who change their car every few years
From an environmental perspective though that probably isn't as bad as you thing. It means a lot of vehicles with good remain service life and overall condition become available in the used market. Arguably a huge benefit to less economical well off individuals, who can benefit for access to affordable quality cars. It in turn means the even old cars that probably do negatively impact the environment disproportionately can be taken out of service. Things like bad oil seals etc, causing leaks that don't get fixed.
Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
The tax tables don't have to be a linear curve. If the rates were set on exponential curve we could easily avoid having poor people driving small cars pay much of anything while hitting bigger vehicles effectively.
As far as costing legit users thousands a year; well they hare are making a disproportionate use of a shared resource, arguably they should pay it. If its a commercial use they can pass the costs on; their competitors after all will be paying the same tax. If its hobby use well again maybe they should pay.
Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
"Really? They're full "programs"?
Idiots"
I believe you might be slightly overreacting to your semantic concern.
"Whenever people agree with me I always feel I must be wrong." (Oscar Wilde)
And that doesn't take into account federal and state tax deductions and credits that were fraudulently secured
Arguable there was not fraud there. As the person claiming the deduction would have been buy who to the best of their knowledge qualified.
Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
You'd be amazed just how many Porsche SUVs that I regularly see driving around here in Silicon Valley.
(No idea if they're diesel or gas, but I didn't even know such a vehicle even existed prior to moving here.)
Even though the idea (theory) is very interesting and looks promising because it is focused to only one aspect, I still think it is not practical and will be extremely difficult (and costly) to operate. Why? It is much easier to check up/force the cause (selling vehicles) than to patch the end (vehicle consumers). There is much smaller number to deal with. If the responsibility is pushed down to the consumers, what else do you think would happen? Who is keeping the records? How to deal with them especially when there is an issue? How many people would be involved in doing so? How much it cost to implement, install, train, etc., the system? Many things will happen in both advantages and disadvantages.
Could individuals cheat by flashing their EFI control modules etc before they have their test and then putting it back after, well yes but they can do that kinda stuff in places that do checks now anyway. The smallish number of individuals that cheat won't amount to much.
Again, in theory, you are thinking of the whole situation in a controlled environment. However, reality is more dynamic. You forgot that currently there is not much incentive to cheat, so small amount of cheaters won't have any impact. If the responsibility is pushed down to consumers, there will be all kind of cheats popping up and would spread out wider than it is now.
Anyway, the ultimate reason for doing this at manufacturer level may come down to how easy the situation could be controlled (by you know who).
Maybe make it bluetooth controllable for when they do checks and you turn it on/off as needed.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
I love a good steak as much as anyone...but I'm often surprised at all the environmentalists out there that never bitch about this one section of the FOOD industry that contributes such a large portion of green house gas.
I guess the Ag/Food industry has better paid lobbyists?
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
Of course that would have to be done for ALL car manufacturers which cheated during emissions or fuel economy tests (after all, fuel economy=emissions, too).
GM/Opel/Fiat Chrysler/Mercedes/Mitsubishi/Renault and most likely every other car manufacturer on this planet.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/fac...
VW has cause to sue. According the the DMCA, you're not allowed to "reverse engineer" their proprietary software and trade secrets. This is a clear violation of VW's copyrights and trademarks.
And as we all know, corporations have way more rights than people, and since the US government is of the people, for the people, by the people, it's people, and therefore VW has more rights than it does.
So, the US government had better watch out or they could face serious fines and jail time.
If telephones are outlawed, then only outlaws will have telephones.
There are emissions and then there are CO2 emissions contributing to carbon footprint.
The cheating VW Diesels do very well, thank you very much, with respect to carbon footprint as they get really good fuel mileage. The problem is in doing that, they emit a whole bunch of stuff, which unlike CO2, is of more immediate and direct harm to people's lungs such as the nitric oxides ("NOx").
If you think the sum total of pollution is carbon footprint, you should be cheering VW's defiance of the pollution tests because it has long been argued that controlling the pollution on the EPA test (CO2 is not on the EPA test but the EU people at least rate cars on this) makes the engine much less efficient and makes the carbon footprint much worse.
Ocean going ships actually do very well on carbon footprint on a ton-mile basis because their engines are optimized for fuel economy without any consideration for their emission of the more directly human-harmful stuff.
Apples and oranges.
The emissions under consideration in automotive emission testing and regulation are CO, NOx, and unburned hydrocarbons ("HC"), not gross carbon output.
The full-blown factory/type-certification testing can MEASURE gross carbon output as a side effect, and uses carbon balance to measure mileage for the mandated sticker labelling. But gross carbon emission has nothing to do with the discussion of the amount of regulated "pollutants" that may be emitted from automotive engine control programs that cheat on the certification testing.
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
Just because you can't think of a reason doesn't mean they don't exist.
Here's a list of people you forgot:
Farmers
Landscapers
People who regularly trailer cars or heavy equipment for whatever reason
People with non-European sized campers - see below
People with large boats - see below
When it comes to boats and campers, you are not taking wind resistance in to consideration. Many campers in the US are much taller than the tow vehicle causing massive amounts of wind resistance. This is a consideration along with weight. Same with any large boat. If it's sticking way above the roof of the towing vehicle, it probably shouldn't be towed by your sub-compact or little crossover.
Any trailer with brakes should be pulled by a full-size truck or SUV, especially if it's towed on a regular basis. Your little car may say it has a certain towing capacity, but that is assuming optimal conditions and new parts. If you are towing on a regular basis, you *will* put more strain on the drive train, suspension, and brakes than someone who doesn't. Most cars, minivans, and hatchbacks these days seem to be built as cheaply as possible so the extra wear and tear does make a difference. Vehicles that are purpose-built for this kind of work are generally heavy-duty enough to handle it.
It makes little to no financial sense, and is wasteful, to own a dedicated towing vehicle if towing is something you do even a handful to times a year. Most families can't afford more than 2 vehicles, so if towing is something needed and both adults are working, the tow vehicle needs to double as a commuter.
The only heavy haulage work involves moving concrete, sand, or building supplies, and if that's your gig then you need a light commercial vehicle.
At least in the US, full-size trucks are the light commercial vehicle of choice and are often driven to job sites by their owners. You can't really expect a construction worker--think of an independent contractor who for sure isn't making tons of money--to own a separate work vehicle.
"Frequently wrong, never in doubt."
As far as I know, all the engines that legitimately meet the emissions standards post-process the exhaust, e.g. Mercedes and Cummins engines. As far as I know, the Mazda Skyactive-D engine is still not approved for US sale. Volkswagen tried to cheap out by NOT using an exhaust filter system, which adds significant cost to each car. We have proof that the standards CAN be met, but it still isn't easy to do so, or we'd have a lot more diesel options available in the US market. I'd like to see a Mercedes diesel hybrid using electric motors to drive all 4 wheels while charging the system with constant speed turbo diesel generator, but I guess they don't see a big enough market to develop such a system.
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
I had a classic car, and it was exempt from everything. No seatbelts, no emissions controls. And it was my daily driver for years. Exempting "classic" cars will cause more of them to get higher use. The proposed "base it on distance" plan seems to be the most fair.
Learn to love Alaska
Even Airbuses sometimes have Rolls Royce engines.
Learn to love Alaska
One of the biggest reasons agriculture isn't focused as much is that a lot of people don't realize how polluting it is. They just see cows and corn fields, they don't think about everything that comes with that. Furthermore, cars pollute in cities, an already crowded and dirty environment, so taking care of them would also significantly improve air quality as well, giving more direct effects to the solution than just reducing greenhouse gas emissions.
"so if towing is something needed and both adults are working, the tow vehicle needs to double as a commuter."
All the reasons you state are good ones, and well taken.
But this is the flaw. To me (for what that's worth) your choice of compromise just seems the wrong way around! If I'm only going to tow for a few weeks a year then I'll gladly accept sub-optimal towing conditions (basically drive slower while towing) in exchange for optimized commuting for the rest of the year. Doing it the other way around just seems really backwards!
As well you should have, and so should have every car owner have the means to get complete corresponding source code with build instructions. Software freedom gives car owners the means to help themselves and prevent more outbreaks of this ridiculousness as Eben Moglen pointed out when we saw the first round of this.
Digital Citizen
Why should the EPA believe that their regulations are unreasonable when all these manufacturers seem to have no trouble at all meeting them without even needing to sacrifice performance?
"All these manufacturers", if you're referring strictly to passenger-car diesel engines here, are mostly all non-US. I'm not aware of any US makers of diesel passenger cars. This is probably why US diesel passenger car emission standards are more strict than most other countries. Purely to put up roadblocks against competition from foreign diesel passenger car makers in order to favor domestic makers of gasoline engines.
Follow the money/power. Who benefits? That usually answers the who & why for most issues/decisions/actions by those in power.
Strat
Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
This is a good argument for open source cars.
Vehical emissions account for less than 1% of all air pollution sources.
Not true. Passenger cars and light trucks account for about 10% of the global carbon footprint. And unlike you, I have sources to prove it.
https://www.edf.org/sites/default/files/5301_Globalwarmingontheroad_0.pdf
To get idea of the scope of the misconception, a single supertanker pumps more air pollution into the atmosphere in a single day than all the cars in the world, VW diesels included.
You're the one with the misconceptions here. As per the above source, shipping only accounts for 2,2% of global CO2 emissions. Besides, you're the one with the misconceptions here - your idea came out of a Guardian article that focused on sulfur oxide emissions to the exclusion of everything else. This is ridiculously misleading, because cars emit next to no SOx.
I'm not defending VW, but pointing out that this VW bullshit is a distraction
And yet you're making factually inaccurate claims in order to trivialize VW's role in willfully deceiving regulators and their own customers around the world.
At least they managed to stop using the word "device".
How fucking dumb are these people?
That and complaining about cows farting makes it hard to take seriously even if it is a significant source of greenhouse gasses.
If only there was a way to stop all sales of VW products until they passed regulatory levels. I mean, $15 billion MAY hurt, but something like losing ALL sales until you have 100% compliance would really be a kick in the nuts.
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
It makes little to no financial sense, and is wasteful, to own a dedicated towing vehicle if towing is something you do even a handful to times a year.
Why not rent? I seem to end up renting a long wheelbase van a couple of time a year or so, when I have a few large things to move. Much as I aspire ot be white van man, It makes no sense to own a transit the other 363 days though.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
You'd be amazed just how many Porsche SUVs that I regularly see driving around here in Silicon Valley.
Ah the Chelsea Tactors. this is whar a Porche tactor might look like:
http://www.farmcollector.com/~... Back/Porsche Touch Extended to Tractors/Porsche-Junior.jpg?w=550&la=en
SJW n. One who posts facts.
Wasn't the first big spill into the gulf of Mexico. Mexican national oil company did the same thing in the 70s.
There are no additional shoes to drop, much as the environmentalists would like much more damage, they are disappointed.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Hm, where I come from that applies to internet service too.
-- Cheers!
Well the fine will be passed on to the consumers one way or another anyway.
They should make the shareholders and senior management liable for the fine, that might actually discourage such behaviour from happening in future.
http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
Interesting, I didn't know that. Thanks.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
Well you need to choose an appropriate vehicle according to your needs, for someone who usually travels long distances at a steady highway speed diesel works out pretty well.
At my previous job that's exactly what i did, so a diesel was ideal.
http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
Hmm. Two questions. How much of the animal agricultural industry's emissions are from short-cycle (biological) sources as opposed to long-cycle (geological) sources? How much impact has the animal agricultural industry had on Earth's overall biologically-sourced greenhouse gas emissions as a net change since the beginning of humanity's industrial age?
Just tax GAS at 100% - split 50% of the revenue between all car owners (1 tax refund per license plate). 10% to CO2 removal research.
Your big truck will get a 10% return on your gas pumped.
Your electric car will get a nice payment bonus.
This would be a simpler solution that uses the existing capitalists market rules; Customers will soon be a lot more careful of the gas consumption; if not let them pay for it. Sue the vendors who posts false numbers.
Not fraud on the part of the buyers. Fraud on the part of VW. In retrospect should have worded it, "credits that were secured on the basis of this fraud" to make that clear.
Lets go after the largest car maker making better vehicles.
Yah, conspiracy theory 101.
They tried it with other better car maker, Toyota, a few years ago too.
You can't compete with a better manufacturers fair and square, so lets try some other way.
As far as I know, all the engines that legitimately meet the emissions standards post-process the exhaust, e.g. Mercedes and Cummins engines.
That's my understanding too: they all use DEF ("AdBlue"), which is a form of urea, in the exhaust stream to convert the harmful emissions to something that's not harmful.
The problem seems to be that to do it properly and meet the emissions requirements, you have to use a lot of DEF, so you either need a giant tank of it, or you need to refill it frequently (like every few thousand miles, rather than every 10k-15k miles so it can be done at regular service intervals). This isn't such a problem with bigger vehicles like full-size pickups because they have a lot more room for a big tank; small cars don't have the extra space.
I honestly don't know why this is a problem. It should be easy to design the engines so they simply won't run without DEF, and make the consumer fill it up every so often themselves, if they can't or won't put a big enough tank in the vehicle. Honestly, how hard is it to get people to buy some cheap fluid at the gas station or Walmart and add it every 1k or 3k miles? Most people don't seem to have too much trouble refilling their washer fluid. And literally everyone is able to refill their own gas tank. No one thinks it's an onerous requirement on consumers for their car to need gas (or diesel) in order to run, and that it's somehow a problem that the vehicle will stop running completely if you run out of fuel. So just make the DEF work the same way. If someone is too stupid to keep their DEF tank full, then they shouldn't buy a diesel car, they can buy a gasoline car instead.
I'd like to see a Mercedes diesel hybrid using electric motors to drive all 4 wheels while charging the system with constant speed turbo diesel generator, but I guess they don't see a big enough market to develop such a system.
And I'd like to have a magic unicorn. You talk about this like it'd be trivial to develop; what you're proposing here is a completely different vehicle, not something that can be slapped together in a month. Wheel motors for EVs are extremely problematic; there's a reason Teslas don't use them. The closest you're going to get to something like this is the Chevy Volt. And even that doesn't have fuel economy that's that great: serial hybrids still suffer from conversion losses (generating electricity from fuel, then using that to power motors) that limit their overall efficiency. The parallel hybrid Prius easily beats the Volt's highway fuel economy; the main advantage the Volt has is its all-electric range before the gas engine comes on. The Volt does this by dedicating a lot of room to batteries, but this (plus the gas engine that doesn't run for 60 miles, plus the drive motor) means you have very little space left over in the vehicle for passengers and cargo, plus a lot of weight. It's not too bad, with its clever packaging design, but in terms of usable space and long-range fuel economy, the Prius is the clear winner, plus it costs a lot less too. The bottom line is: if it were that easy and cost-effective to build and sell a serial-hybrid vehicle that would really be worth it in terms of cost and performance and utility, car companies would have already done it. There's good reasons they haven't, besides the Volt.
Large corporations are taking selfish liberties with you! We enacted pollution regulations for very valid reasons - to help save the planet and mankind.
Along comes corporations that defy regulation - for whatever reasoning - so as to allow them to market illegal products; knowing damn well that they will be perceived as being too big to punish!
I say bullshit on that. Pay up, and stop the breaches. If you collapse, then so be it. It is upon us all to keep honest. Jail all the culprits.
Self-importance and self-indulgence is the root of ALL evil.
Ford has nothing to do with it; these trucks were illegally modified. From the factory, they surely met EPA requirements (assuming they didn't pull a VW).
The states need better enforcement for that stuff.
you don't actually need a large powerful vehicle to pull a boat (they're light)
This isn't true. A canoe or kayak certain is light and can easily be towed with or carried on top of a small car. But something like a cabin cruiser can weigh 4000-7000 pounds (from a quick Google search), plus the weight of the trailer (guessing another 1000-1500 pounds). No car can pull that kind of weight; a Class II hitch maxes out at 2000 pounds. You definitely need a large truck for pulling a boat that size.
Another thing that needs a big truck is pulling a horse trailer. A single horse can be between 800 and 1200 pounds; then add the weight of the trailer, plus you probably want to be able to transport 2-4 of them.
Now, you can certainly argue that no one really *needs* to tow a 20-foot boat or a couple of horses, and if they're rich enough to afford those kinds of toys, then they can also afford a big-ass pollution tax bill for their truck, and I would not argue with that at all. Especially for horses: the women who love horses and become horse owners are, without exception, a bunch of nuts wasting money on a ridiculous hobby to the detriment of everyone around them, and absolutely deserve to be driven into bankruptcy and homelessness with a huge tax bill (because they're so stupid they won't give up their hobby no matter how much it costs them).
That should only be allowed to make electric vehicles from now on
The pre-Euro 6 (2014) regulations allowing NOx levels for compression engines (i.e., diesel) three times higher than those for spark-ignition engines (i.e., petrol) makes an argument for the European regulations being drafted to permit diesel engines lacking NOx controls regardless of the smog issue. Their own governments say so.
The Euro 6 regulations that came into effect in the 2015 model year (late 2014) finally push NOx limits down to 0.08 g/km (diesel) vs. 0.06 g/km (petrol), approximating parity for the first time. Meanwhile, the US Tier 2 standard is a fleet average of 0.07 g/mi (~0.043 g/km) for both engine types.
So, if the US regulations were devised to protect manufacturers of gasoline engines, then why are the Euro regulations clamping down from 0.50 g/km to only slightly more than double the US limits now? Why are spark-ignition engines even closer to the US limits now? What is your basis for levels being "unreasonable" besides the apparent fact that you view the European regulations as being infallible, even though they themselves do not.
The smog in European cities more than makes an argument that the Euro regulations are unreasonable, not the other way around.
Yep. Nothing to do with smog and proposals for center city bans on diesel vehicles (never mind the alternating day travel schemes already being imposed). European smog problems are clearly rumors. The London ULEZ is simply a scheme by U.S. engine manufacturers to take over the European market.
No technical reason at all. You hear politicians discussing making London and Paris-type proposals for LA, SF, NYC, Boston, and Chicago all the freaking time... right?
Try again.
It makes little to no financial sense, and is wasteful, to own a dedicated towing vehicle
Nonsense I keep my 1995 Silverado around for exactly this. It cost me about $4000 to by and maybe $3000 to replace everything required to make it completely safe an reliable. If you can afford the boat or camper you can afford the sub $10K vehicle to haul it.
I don't have to care how well it does on gas or anything either because I drive it about once a week to haul our trash to the dump to keep it exercised and when I need to bring back something big from the home store, move a bunch dirt/mulch/stone and haul my racer somewhere. Trunk maybe gets driven 3000 miles a year. At this rate with basic (cheap) maintenance it will probably last ten years at least. So total cost of ownership probably ends up being in the $1600/year range after taxes and title.
It makes total sense to have dedicated towing vehicle, if you have an consistent need, even if its a few camping trips or auto races a year.
Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
This event is irreversible in the same way time is irreversible. Yes, it happened and you cannot undo the effects. However, despite the cause of the spill being man-made, crude oil is a naturally occurring substance that has been seeping into the ocean for millennia. The spill wasn't great for the environment, but it isn't the disaster everyone was claiming it would be.
Yes it's an anecdote! Were you expecting original research in a Slashdot comment?