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'Social Media ID, Please?' Proposed US Law Greeted With Anger (computerworld.com)
The U.S. government announced plans to require some foreign travelers to provide their social media account names when entering the country -- and in June requested comments. Now the plan is being called "ludicrous," an "all-around bad idea," "blatant overreach," "desperate, paranoid heavy-handedness," "preposterous," "appalling," and "un-American," reports Slashdot reader dcblogs:
That's just a sampling of the outrage. Some 800 responded to the U.S. request for comments about a proposed rule affecting people traveling from "visa waiver" countries to the U.S., where a visa is not required. This includes most of Europe, Singapore, Chile, Japan, South Korea, Australia and New Zealand... In a little twist of irony, some critics said U.S. President Obama's proposal for foreign travelers is so bad, it must have been hatched by Donald Trump.
"Travelers will be asked to provide their Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, Google+, and whatever other social ID you can imagine to U.S. authorities," reports Computer World. "It's technically an 'optional' request, but since it's the government asking, critics believe travelers will fear consequences if they ignore it..."
"Travelers will be asked to provide their Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, Google+, and whatever other social ID you can imagine to U.S. authorities," reports Computer World. "It's technically an 'optional' request, but since it's the government asking, critics believe travelers will fear consequences if they ignore it..."
Do they really think that if some ISIS guy flies in, he's going to fill out the customs form honestly and say "Yep, my Twitter handle is @jihad4lyfe!" It's preposterous to think this would be effective at gathering any sort of reasonable intelligence.
.
So, in effect, this proposal results in the government building a database of US citizens. The government couldn't do that directly, so they go about it indirectly, i.e., using foreigners as the entry point into social media. From that entry point, they just follow the links and connections.
So anyone without an account on any of the childish social media sites will be now regarded with suspicion?
Land of the free... as long as you have Big Brother always watching you.
We're not too far from two minutes of hate being implemented should Trump be elected anyways... more like 4 years of hate.
The combination of social media, open borders in Europe, and the Islamic extremism that is centuries old but whose recent spread was magnified by Bush, Blair, Obama, Merkel, and the other globalists has produced a situation in which very dangerous people are using social media to organize and plot very violent activities and the normal behind-the-scenes government-to-government info exchanges about travellers are not working. The countries from which many travellers are originating these days know very little about them since they are recent arrivals there and were generally unscreened while immigrating due to political correctness.
This sort of thing may be distatsteful, but critics need to offer some rational suggestion for somethng better since many of them have been supporters of the very sorts of politics that made the older methods of screening, which mostly narrowly focused on the actual dangerous people, no longer acceptable. If there are arsonists wandering around and you have campaigned to make it politically unacceptable to use fire extinguishers then you cannot be surprised if small fires are put out with big fire hoses that get everybody wet.
If Trump was the one doing this, the left would be screaming that it was obviously racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, ..., but since it's Obama, they'll just look for ways to pretend it's Trump and that he's racist,sexist....
See how loudly you can say I DECLINE TO PROVIDE THAT INFORMATION.
Government always wants more power -- like every other organization and individual, if you put your Machiavellian cap on -- and tries out its new ideas with test runs like this.
Push back and they will back off.
Give in and bend over, and expect more of the same, except worse.
Alternative Right.
You are only encouraging them.
I stopped doing business requiring me to fly there back in 2004 because of INS/TSA abuse.
Anyone who worries about their bank account before they worry about their freedom can go fuck themselves.
Just like encryption, just have a secondary generic/sparsely populated one for them to "find" and explore.
from 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
to 45 2F 6E 40 3C DF 10 71 4E 41 DF AA 25 7D 31 3F
The only one I have is here and Imgur and that gets deleted every month or so. And when I travel, I use a separate mailbox for each trip. Easier to organize. So they could get the email usa2016@example.com, but they have that already as it was the one I used to apply for my Visa. So they can follow it, but they already know where I am going, because I had to enter that on my Visa.
And that address will be deleted when I get back.
And why do they need it? NSA unable to crack https?
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
It would make it difficult for those of us without a facebook, twitter, instagram, linkedin or google+ account... Not having these social media account means you cannot provide them which could be interpreted as a refusal to supply account information... Maybe not by a sane person but the people that make and enforce these rules are another story. That could complicate entry to the US by appearing suspicious and have the typical effect of harming the innocent while doing nothing to improve safety and security.
I generally avoid social media because of privacy and security considerations. I do have memberships of many forums and discussion groups because they offer an acceptable level of privacy.
Don't post here.
Post here
USA constitutional rights apply to citizens only.
No. You fail civics,
The Supreme Court has insisted for more than a century that foreign nationals living among us are "persons" within the meaning of the Constitution, and are protected by those rights that the Constitution does not expressly reserve to citizens. The Constitution expressly limits to citizens only the rights to vote and to run for federal elective office.
Here, have a little light reading.
Protoplasm. Quiet Protoplasm. I like quiet protoplasm.
No FB, no twitter, no snapchat, absolutely no accounts on "social media". Given the number of working neurons in your typical Homeland Security worker, that means I get the hammer to the kneecaps until I give up an account.
U.S. Constitutional rights are limited to everyone (citizens, foreigners, illegals) in certain U.S. territories. When you're trying to enter the U.S. and are held up at Customs and Immigration, you are not yet considered to be on U.S. soil, so you do not enjoy the protection of U.S. Constitutional rights. This is precisely why Bush put a POW prison camp in Guantanamo Bay. While Guantanamo is controlled by the U.S., it is Cuban territory. And thus prisoners there would not be protected by the U.S. Constitution. (At least until Boumediene v. Bush which decided since the U.S. maintained "de facto sovereignty" over the base, it could be considered U.S. territory.)
Whether U.S. citizens enjoy U.S. Constitutional protections when abroad is an unsettled matter too. The recent drone killings of U.S. citizens fighting for ISIS abroad were done under the presumption that the answer is "no". They are not entitled to due process guaranteed by the 5th and 14th Amendments. If you extend that reasoning (not saying this is correct, just saying if you extend that reasoning), then U.S. citizens trying to re-enter the U.S. do not enjoy Constitutional protection until after they have been admitted.
That's why DHS trying to extend this territorial exclusion to a 100 mile bubble around U.S. entry points (borders and international airports) was so ridiculous and troubling. They were basically trying to make it so anyone within 100 miles of the U.S. border or an international airport did not have Constitutional protection.
https://www.hackcanada.com/can...
Alternative Right.
The U.S. Government has rather quietly introduced some subtle language changes in certain questions, designed to help identify possible terrorists.
Q: How long will you be staying in the Great Satan?
Q: What is the primary purpose of your visit (pick one)?
- Vacation / Pleasure
- Work / Business
- Slaughtering infidels
Q: How fast can you disassemble and reassemble an AK-47?
#DeleteChrome
All constitutional rights (unless otherwise indicated) apply to US Nationals.
Nope. Go read the bill of rights. None of those amendments say "unless you're not a citizen."
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Do they really think that if some ISIS guy flies in, he's going to fill out the customs form honestly and say "Yep, my Twitter handle is @jihad4lyfe!"
No, they probably think that he will refuse to give them a handle and then they will use this as grounds to detain him for interrogation. The problem is that some of us don't use Facebook, Twitter etc. and so I don't have an account to give them - other than a dummy Facebook account which is entirely devoid of any personal information and that I only created because our local airport used to insist on Facebook to access the free WiFi. However I expect this will look like I created a dummy account to hide my real account from them.
I'm beginning to wonder whether the US government's long term plan is to make travelling to the US such a horrible experience for us foreigners that identifying the terrorists will be easy because they will be the only ones insane enough to try.
welcome to Nazi Germany papers please!
Generally I don't think they should be doing this because of the potential for abuse, but there actually *ARE* reasons why it could be used in ways which are not really privacy invasive.
The Visa Waiver Program allows stays of up to 90 days. After 80 days, if you have not left the country they could use your social media for a friendly reminder. It might help someone who was going to overstay feel like someone is paying attention and that they have to follow the visa law, and reduce the number of people overstaying their stay in the United States.
Real lawyers write in C++
then why ask individuals for their ID's?
To demonstrate compliance. Also, one of the primary charges levied against people the gov't doesn't like is making false statements to a federal agent. There may be nothing actionable in the online ramblings of a visitor to this country. At most, they might be asked to leave. But if you can catch them in a lie, there's jail time involved.
Have gnu, will travel.
-- Protoplasm. Quiet Protoplasm. I like quiet protoplasm.
"...but I also like lively protoplasm"!
I don't do social media. I have no interest in in at all. Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, Google+. You name it. Google+ almost got me as I have an Android phone, but after repeatedly refusing signup offers to Google+ I find I can do things that used to require it, like review apps on the app store.
So if this became a thing, and I traveled to America, would I be branded a suspect of some kind for refusing to hand over details of accounts that don't exist?
When you're trying to enter the U.S. and are held up at Customs and Immigration, you are not yet considered to be on U.S. soil, so you do not enjoy the protection of U.S. Constitutional rights.
Reductio ad absurdum So, non-citizens lacking any rights whatsoever, Customs & Immigration could happily kill them on a whim? You are not within the USA, so a lawless zone exists? Free-fire anyone?
If you are not on U.S. soil, why do non-citizens need a visa to transit? Fly from Asia to Europe via the USA and you need a visa. Almost every other country simply provides a transit lounge where you wait while you change planes.
It seems both obvious, and likely to withstand legal challenge, that when you are on the wrong side of the Customs & Immigration barrier, you are nevertheless under U.S. control, in U.S. jurisdiction, and under the mantle of the U.S. Constitution. You have not yet been admitted, according to due legal process, into the country. You might be denied entry, and sent back. You might be arrested because you are in fact a terrorist.
I agree with you, the current issues with Guantanamo and the 100mi limit show what happens when people try to create places where the law doesn't apply to 'them' (because 'they' are the good guys).
Protoplasm. Quiet Protoplasm. I like quiet protoplasm.
NO FOREIGN PERSON HAS ANY RIGHT TO ENTER THE US
I'm not in any way disagreeing with this. I am simply refuting the misstatement that USA constitutional rights apply to citizens only.
In the context of the debate, it might be a fine, geekish point, but once someone is in a line waiting to get into the country, they don't magically become a non-person, Once they are in the country, they are afforded full constitutional protection, even if they overstay their visa, or even entered under false pretences! The law, backed by the constitution, will allow for them to be tried, punished and removed.
Protoplasm. Quiet Protoplasm. I like quiet protoplasm.
They'd find your ass anyway. Just look for the only person on the planet who posts "captcha" everywhere.
Just another day in Paradise
How will they handle someone with no social media accounts. Search my name, number, email and you get 0 results. Toss me out of the country?
Right, let's keep out all those terrorist vegetarians and Orthodox Jews...
And, who knows, maybe even some Muslims--at least those who pay attention to the dietary laws. I know some who don't, or who only abstain from such things during Ramadan.
Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
If you're flying via Beijing and you don't already have a Chinese visa, the Chinese authorities will issue you one that's good for 1 day so you can move about the airport freely. Or, if your layover is long enough, you can take a cab into the city and mess around for a few hours.
Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
I am a German citizen with a Turkish sounding last name and have been requested to provide my email used to login to Facebook and Twitter every time I entered the US in the last years. That is when they single me out at the border and immigration desk each time in the last five year, claim it is random, detain me for 45 minutes, 30 minutes of which is waiting for anything to happen, then ask the same questions each time such as: been traveling to Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq? Any friends there? Political affiliations of my parents? Social media login email addresses (they don't seem to need passwords)? What is my job and education?
Even though they are seemingly friendly, any question on the why will immediately chill the atmosphere, letting the officer become cold in tone, threateningly often. I have learned not to oppose anything.
There seem to be no rights in these situations. Fearing to miss connecting flights forces you to cooperate to the fullest, leaving a bad taste about civil liberties in your mouth.
What is most infuriating to me is that it is always the same questions and the same fake friendlyness when I explain that I have a masters degree from a top American graduate school, lived in the US from 2003 to 2004 and am a startup founder...
There should not be outrage about this, collecting social media accounts is already the norm. Just not for everyone...
Actually the credit goes to Rep. Vern Buchanan, R-Fla. for introducing this bill - not every proposed unconstitutional rights violation is the fault of the president, even in election season.
I had a 5 hour layover at Shanghai (PVG) last month. No visa of any sort required to move around the international terminal of the airport. Of course I'm pretty certain they would not have let me leave the airport - but definitely no transit visa involved just to change planes.
Well, they lost me then, because I don't have any of those, I don't give away my privacy for connecting so somebody who had a locker beside me 30 years ago, I'm perfectly able to do that myself if I wanted to.
If the NSA, CIA, FBI, and other US agencies already have access to Facebook's and Google's databases, then why ask individuals for their ID's? I suspect it's another case of misguided "security theater" designed to have an impact on public perception rather than have any investigative usefulness. Do they still ask people if they are or ever have been members of the Communist Party?
It's a fundamental principle of investigation (and Border Security guards are in the business of investigation) to ask questions you already know the answer to, to test the truthfulness of the subject before you. Cops do it, Insurance investigators do it, employers do it, prospective landlords do it, bank loans officers do it. Everybody does it; even your parents.
I thought everyone knew that. Maybe I give people too much credit sometimes.
This is only required if you need to change terminals or want to travel into the city.
You can most definitely have a layover in Beijing and move around the airport without ever being issued a visa. This is standard practice in most of the world.
Different setup in Beijing where any meaningful interpretation of "moving about the airport" involves going out of doors between terminal buildings.
Shanghai/Pudong seems like a much nicer airport, though (only been through there once). I particularly enjoyed the calligraphy shop and getting to watch and have a chat with the chief calligrapher as he worked.
Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
They're not asking for passwords, and given the power of the CIA/NSA/5eyes they don't need to. What this is really doing, is de-anonymizing social media: Every account is now linked to a person, with their real-world name and date of birth. (You didn't stupidly put the true value for both of those in your online profile did you?) Also linked, are your friends and colleagues on social media services.
The correct answer is to create accounts just for use in the USA. And to not take a phone/tablet/laptop to the USA so that your personal data / contacts / history / emails / messages can't be copied or confiscated. I imagine some people can't survive a few weeks without Facebook and Twitter, so hidden access is required, such as a VPN, which is too complex for the average user. In that case, set the fake account to follow your real account. A good alternative is to have a family member change the password on your actual accounts, without telling you, and to forward messages to your fake account.
Actually it does not. This is NOT A BILL. It is a proposed change/regulation. It is supported by the passing of the Consolidated Appropriations Bill for 2016. That means, no bill or law needed, as it is under DHS control. DHS is controlled by Executive Branch.
In the first place...
Yuck, American ham. And even worse, American bread.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
Guantanamo Bay is a nice little 'fuck you' to your theory. In practice, the Constitution is selective in its protection of foreigners.
Good-bye
All constitutional rights (unless otherwise indicated) apply to US Nationals.
Nope. Go read the bill of rights. None of those amendments say "unless you're not a citizen."
-jcr
Nope, it says we the people. There is a big discussion about this in the federalist papers. The Bill of Rights were put in specifically to say what the government can't do to the citizens. Such as take their guns from them. Such as silencing the press. Such as making them a witness against themselves.
Take the liberal crap elsewhere. You probably also think a child born in the US is automatically a US Citizen as well. That's not true. More leftist fairy dust.
Let's not get into a debate over what assorted government agencies do on a regular basis that is, in fact, illegal.
Protoplasm. Quiet Protoplasm. I like quiet protoplasm.
I really hate it when the news articles about this kind of crap come out after the request for comment period has expired.
"Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past." -- George Orwell
Right. Because there was still that one guy who kept coming back to the US for a holiday. Let's make sure that guy never comes back. He's a nuisance and takes away airline seats from everyone else who has no choice but to go to the US for some reason. Airline seats are scarce and precious. Let's keep them as empty as possible. To be fair I guess it does make their jobs easier to keep tourists away.
Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
AC this will be your public social media, private social media, all your contacts, history, instant messenger logs. All contacts made, some might not be added as friend.
Anything your account still have left on it when you log in and never changed the privacy or keep history, transcript settings. None of that is "Public" and can only be seen by the account holder depending on the network.
The local device logs or the online logs will be fully cloned for later searching, indexing, examination with any open US investigations, federal and state.
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
Parallel construction, a slight hope to find account sharing, draft emails that two people log into to read but are never sent. Users chatting but not added to friend or buddy lists. i.e. a long chat history exists but the friend or buddy was never added.
: ;) or Party....
All that is given to state, federal and public private charities to filter. Has any aspect of the past account use ever shown up, do the people mentioned have any friends in common or any normal reason to even be chatting. How did they meet and what do they chat about... Friends of friends of friends...?
The hope is that the users computers logs are still intact for some reason and a clone, inspection to find any past crypto use, history, file names, MAC or other unique numbers will be useful.
The past hope was for a person to bring their own laptop with them full of history, logs, filenames, accounts.... Now its all the online accounts too.
Even the account name, password or pass phrase used can be telling.
i.e. the laptop was not new was the past and full of details, now the account question was so totally unexpected and the person gives over gave their real ISP or social media accounts as they had to give something.
re the Communist Party, 'Have you ever participated in persecutions directed by the Nazi government or Germany" question
The question about been a member of some banned group is to induce a lie on an application or under oath that can then be used to deport without any extra legal protections.
If you say yes, your not allowed in, if no and your discovered later, instant deportation. The Communist Party? Given how many had to stayed in the party
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
This is a direct violation of the international treaties the US signed with Canada and the EU, Australia and New Zealand, and Japan.
Other countries ... meh.
But you can't do that by treaty.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
Either you're really bad at sarcasm, or you don't know what you're talking about.
Anyone born in the US is a US citizen, according to the Fourteenth Amendment. I haven't noticed that part of the Fourteenth being repealed by another Amendment.
While the Bill of Rights may have been intended to protect US citizens, it doesn't limit itself to them. A person from another country can't be required to incriminate himself or herself, for example.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
The law allows the US government to expel people who are not US citizens and are here illegally, and that's a significantly lower barrier than would be required to convict and punish them.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
The idea behind the Constitution was that it provided the Federal government with assorted legal powers and responsibilities, and that therefore the Feds could not do anything not authorized by the Constitution. Therefore, there's no such thing as something the US government runs that's not subject to the Constitution, since either the Feds have no power to run it or they're bound by the Constitution.
The drone killings of US citizens are done on the basis that there's a war on, and that it's not necessary to conduct a trial before killing an enemy in war. If they're a member of a hostile military force, they're legal targets no matter what else might be true about them. US citizens abroad who have not taken up arms in the service of a foreign power need not worry.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
Not being sarcastic here - good for you! I hope you can find something soon. I think most people agree that it's better to rehabilitate criminals and make them into productive members of society. But too few people want to be the ones to take that perceived risk themselves, and the government rarely makes it easier for them to.
Examine even your most deeply held beliefs. Nobody is always right.
Could be way more than you ever wanted to know and you'll have to do some reading to understand this.
Very common misconception. Especially people that read a little law. I know what I'm talking about. Referring to the 14th Amendment by itself tells me you don't. Otherwise, you wouldn't have mentioned it. See a lawyer (not a whacked out crazy one...sometimes known as an ACLU lawyer). Until then, consider:
The Constitution, Federalist papers, USSC Decisions:
The Slaughterhouse Cases 83 U.S. 36 (1873)
Minor v. Happersett 88 U.S. 162 (1874)
Elk v. Wilkins 112 U.S. 94 (1884)
Wong Kim Ark Case, 169 U.S. 649 (1898)
Perkins v. Elg, 307 U. S. 325 (1939)
As you can see from the intent of the Founding Fathers to the Supreme Court decision that “a natural born” is the child of citizens. A natural born citizen is not the child of an alien. In this there is no doubt. Only the crazy left keep trying to mislead people that don't know any better. The 14th Amendment was intended to make citizens of slaves and that was clear. Otherwise, what are they? Some could technically still be from some other country and not necessarily from some African country. The Arabs took slaves from all around there, even England, Spain, Portugal, Italy. It's the Arabs that came up with slavery BTW. Not "white people."
I'll say Mexican below, however you can also substitute your favorite alien - Canadian, Nigeria (Nigerian Prince with money for you), etc.
As for the Constitution applying to foreigners, it depends. I was poking with a stick. The rights that are specified to just citizens, don't apply to foreigners. That's very clear. For example a Mexican national cannot run for office. You'd think all the Constitutional Amendments would apply, however you'd be wrong. For example the 1st Amendment does, I don't think there is any argument on that one by anyone. What about the 2nd Amendment? Can a Mexican buy a gun in the US legally? Hell, I couldn't buy one two states away. Unless my state touched that other state, forgetaboutit.