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ITT Tech Is Officially Closing (gizmodo.com)

Posted by msmash on from the goodbye dept.

Reader Joe_Dragon shares a Gizmodo report: ITT Technical Institute is officially closing all of its campuses following federal sanctions imposed against the company. The for-profit college announced the changes in a statement: "It is with profound regret that we must report that ITT Educational Services, Inc. will discontinue academic operations at all of its ITT Technical Institutes permanently after approximately 50 years of continuous service. With what we believe is a complete disregard by the U.S. Department of Education for due process to the company, hundreds of thousands of current students and alumni and more than 8,000 employees will be negatively affected."
ITT Tech announced it was closing all of its campuses just one week after it stopped enrolling students following a federal crackdown on for-profit colleges. ITT Tech and other higher education companies like it have been widely criticized for accepting billions of dollars in government grants and loans while failing to provide adequate job training for its students. Last year, ITT Tech received an estimated $580 million in federal money (aka taxpayer dollars), according to the Department of Education.

59 of 420 comments (clear)

  1. Universities aren't completely honest either by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

    So when are the FEDs going to shut down the big Universities? $180,000 of student loans and NO JOB prospects ... They aren't being honest either.

    1. Re:Universities aren't completely honest either by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      I went to ITT and now I write for Gizmodo. I applied to slashdot but I didn't have the errors per article count needed to be an editor

    2. Re:Universities aren't completely honest either by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2

      I had a job lined up before I graduated, 20 grand in debt later. I didn't wait until graduation to start applying, plus I don't have a degree in something like archaeology

    3. Re:Universities aren't completely honest either by Ecuador · · Score: 3, Funny

      I went to ITT and now I write for Gizmodo. I applied to slashdot but I didn't have the errors per article count needed to be an editor

      I don't think that was the issue, the powers at be at slashdot can often be forgiving about missing errors. But did you make sure you made a dupe application? That's how you get past round one of the process...

      --
      Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. Polar Scope Align for iOS
    4. Re:Universities aren't completely honest either by Lead+Butthead · · Score: 2

      ... plus I don't have a degree in something like archaeology

      And that's why you don't get to do nifty things like fighting Nazis or collecting alien skulls.

      --
      ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI!?
    5. Re:Universities aren't completely honest either by Ogive17 · · Score: 2

      I don't recall the public universities claiming 99% job placement rates.

      We need quality trade schools, like ITT use to be. I'm in the mid-west, there are so many manufacturing facilities that cannot find enough trained machinists to keep up with production.

      --
      "Action without philosophy is a lethal weapon; philosophy without action is worthless."
    6. Re:Universities aren't completely honest either by Austerity+Empowers · · Score: 5, Interesting

      But a degree in Liberal Arts won't get me me a high paying job???????

      You laugh, but even down here in the republic of Texas kids are being fed a boatload of lies, usually in the name of classroom economy. If I had a dollar for every time I heard "the nation's largest tech companies are demanding these skills" (group work, collaboration, well-rounded, etc.) I could retire and start my own school. What I hear when they say this is "we need to reduce teacher workload to shave some dollars off the budget", because all the things they say they won't do in class I find myself doing for my kids at home because 4 kids who don't know the alphabet can't teach each other the alphabet. I have no doubt the CEOs are saying these things, but I question their motives and perspective.

      Normally they talk to fortune 500 CEOs, of which by definition, there are 500 in the world and they make hiring decisions only for the most senior executives. Those that they even see represent the very cream of the crop in terms of demonstrated results and pedigree which eliminates the vast majority of the world's population. You would be better off following your dream to pursue professional sports rather than pursue such positions, there are more employed pro-athletes. They are NOT talking to hiring managers and rank and file employees who actually make the hiring decisions for the majority of employees which is far more useful information for the vast majority of students. Unfortunately what they find might be expensive.

      The net result is we have kids who have been force-fed bad information and have then made bad choices in their education based on that bad information. Be a collaborator, be a team player, be a leader, just pursue your dream, get a degree in anything etc. All horrible advice. Archaeology maybe your dream and you may passionately love it, definitely pursue it, but have a very viable backup plan of something that will net you a job with high probability and that you can live with. Very likely that is the job you will be doing while you wait for the archaeology position to open, possibly indefinitely. Also don't mention to prospective recruiters that your first love is archaeology but plumbing is a second choice: the odds that they will resonate with your dream are low, but the odds you get marked as "overqualified" (code for: will probably leave us for another job before we're ready) are very high.

    7. Re:Universities aren't completely honest either by Austerity+Empowers · · Score: 4, Insightful

      They need to be stopped.

      Nope, but requiring a degree or considering it on a job application needs to be stopped, I've worked in places where we won't even hire people who don't come from a short list of 8 colleges. There's a reason things like the bar association and the medical board exist: anyone's daddy can buy a degree, but not everyone can pass tests of competence.

      The only barrier to employment should be certifications of competence in a field, either ad hoc (interview) or standardized (ex. the bar). You can go to all the Ivy League schools you want and get a large alphabet of degrees, but if you can't get certified you can't get employed. Unfortunately because of the need to justify H-1B's and outsourcing, employers are reluctant to embrace this model. If you could show that a large body of qualified applications do exist and are unemployed, it casts a big shadow on your statements that there aren't enough bodies to fill reqs. Even in careers like IT where there are some certifications, it seems to be a moving target of expensive and narrowly defined skills that you have to continuously chase. It's possible that industry professionals and the government are going to need to team up and create laws.

    8. Re:Universities aren't completely honest either by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      that cannot find enough trained machinists to keep up with production

      That's because the entry level job is now open for Journeyman with 5+ years of experience, working $8/hr. Maybe if they did what they used to and hire dozens out of highschool for minimum wage, laid off the stoners and kept the ones who learned they'd have trained machinists again like companies did for centuries, but there's no instant gratification in that plan.

      Instead they just hope someone else trains their employees for them, and whine like entitled brats when it turns out nobody's interested in doing that.

    9. Re:Universities aren't completely honest either by ganjadude · · Score: 3, Insightful

      id argue no colleges should receive federal funding. If people want an education they should pay for it. the cost has gone up and up since when? oh yeah since the government guaranteed it would pay for it

      so the schools keep increasing because they know they are getting paid no matter what happens to the kid

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    10. Re:Universities aren't completely honest either by Copid · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I think the problem with government money for college is that we went demand side rather than supply side. States have a good history of building public universities that provided a great education at a great price and admitting students who could actually benefit from that education. Eventually, we shifted tons of money into providing loans and grants, which ultimately just arms both sides in a bidding war over the same set of seats for already existing universities. In general, when that happens, the price goes up and more suppliers enter the market to satisfy the demand. The problem here is that it's a lot easier to build a shitty fake university to soak up easy tuition dollars than it is to build a real university that actually educates people and has standards.

      Worse, as more and more people are selected for seats in real schools, the remaining people with piles of federal cash burning holes in their pockets are, on average, worse and worse students. So building a good quality school with high standards isn't even necessarily the right thing to do even if your heart is in the right place and you're willing invest the money doing so. Ultimately, you just end up with a bunch of fly by night operations that specialize in separating vulnerable students from their loan money.

      --
      An interesting anagram of "BANACH TARSKI" is "BANACH TARSKI BANACH TARSKI"
    11. Re:Universities aren't completely honest either by Streetlight · · Score: 2

      This year Colorado, where I live, found they might have an income problem and would need to cut expenses, IIRC,~$350 million. The first thing that come out of the mouth of the governor was support for higher education would be cut to fund the anticipated deficit. That from a Democratic governor, no less. This has been going on for 30 years or more. When I started as an assistant professor many years ago the public university system I started at had state support for its education component at about 70% of its cost. Now it's less than 10%. One way public universities have tried to compensate for the loss of state support is to recruit more and more out of state and foreign students who will pay the much higher non resident tuition. This results in a reduction in the number in qualified in-state students enrolled.

      --
      In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell
    12. Re:Universities aren't completely honest either by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Degrees are extremely over-rated, and we have too much emphasis on them in our society-- but they give you some kind of baseline. I will likely never hire a devry, ITT, or University of Phoenix graduate (and so help me, I hope I never again have the misfortune of hiring a Harvard or MIT grad).

      It used to be that a degree meant that you had a balanced education, and you had proved that you can learn new things. Now, it seems like universities are becoming more like trade schools (at least my alma mattar's engineering school). People might graduate with more engineering hours, but they are so specialized that they are often useless.

      Specific to IT though, I really wish more of the people we work with had better communication skills rather than trying to explain a plan with Visio.

      Too bad labor laws now make it too dificult to hire people for (> 1year) internships. Most kids today would be better off with a good internship than college.

    13. Re:Universities aren't completely honest either by Jzanu · · Score: 3, Interesting

      You are truly out of touch with this issue because US student debt is not removed with a bankruptcy filing. It could be paid off with another bank loan intended for other purposes, and that loan would be subject to bankruptcy partial repayment based on priority. However, in that case there is no unpaid public loss due to unpaid loan principal, nor is there any unpaid interest cost absorbed by the public. As a hiring manager you are largely failing to do your job by using automated filters that are not keyed to actual job requirements. I hope your supervisor sees your post above and sanctions you for the practice.

    14. Re:Universities aren't completely honest either by lars_stefan_axelsson · · Score: 2

      If I had a dollar for every time I heard "the nation's largest tech companies are demanding these skills" (group work, collaboration, well-rounded, etc.) I could retire and start my own school.

      Well, being a university professor I've hear the same things, and you know, the companies are absolutely right. I think you're a bit too cynical. The reason they say these things ("we need engineers who can write and present and work well i groups") is that they do feel a real need, and also feel current graduates lacking in these respects.

      However, that's always been the case. It's a pretty stable criticism. So then you have to figure out why. And the answer is very simple and I always point it out when I meet industry representatives who lament the current state of teaching: "We could do that. We could turn out engineers who are much, much better at writing, speaking and what have you. But if we do, we have to cut something else. And we already have trouble cramming the vital subject matter into the education as it is. We've already, during my lifetime added a whole year to the master's engineering degree (from four to five), and you still have to spend too much effort to train them until they can become really productive. So do you really want us to spend more time on writing/presentation, at the cost of less time teaching programming and whatnot?"

      The answer is always, "Well, not not really..." and "Well, when you put it that way..."

      So, if you ask people what they want, its always always something else than what they would actually spend money on, and pay for. Schools as a general rule don't understand this (an affliction they share with many others in the public sector), the opt for asking and delivering that, instead of realising that wishing and actually putting your money where your mouth is, are two very different things.

      --
      Stefan Axelsson
    15. Re:Universities aren't completely honest either by meta-monkey · · Score: 2

      anyone's daddy can buy a degree, but not everyone can pass tests of competence.

      We used to give people IQ tests, but they outlawed those for hiring in the 70s because they were "racist." So we replaced the simple test that would tell you whether a person was trainable with a degree requirement. But the degree mills have no incentive not to pass people who give them money. So now we have lots of people spending lots of money on questionable education and worthless degrees no one trusts anyway.

      Society's wounds are self-inflicted.

      --
      We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
    16. Re:Universities aren't completely honest either by Streetlight · · Score: 2

      Colorado, like most states, has complicated tax law and some of it is unique. One thing is the Tax Payer's Bill of Rights,(TABOR) which requires tax revenue for any taxing district (state, county, city/town) to refund revenue in excess of that based on population growth and inflation and may be part of the budget problem this year. The total state budget is ~$27 billion of which somewhere around $75 million is state marijuana tax revenue is expected - ~ 0.28% of revenue - not much in the grand scheme of things. Looking around it seems that TABOR will require the return to taxpayers of something like $350 million. It looks like the Governor and Legislature underestimated revenue and the amount to be returned to us under TABOR, though I'm not completely sure about all this. I may be wrong, but IIRC, the marijuana revenue is supposed to go to K - 12 schools and can't be spent on anything else and cannot be used to replace normal state support for schools. The bottom line is that the arithmetic results in a projected deficit of something like ~$350 million and universities will bear a substantial part of that reduction in spending. These numbers seem to change montly.

      --
      In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell
  2. Don't Worry... by Rob+Riggs · · Score: 4, Funny

    Don't worry. The same people will have already started a new company, under a new name, which does exactly the same thing as the old company. Bonus points if they also have ITT Educational Services, Inc. sell all the trademarks for "ITT Technical Institutes" to the new company.

    --
    the growth in cynicism and rebellion has not been without cause
    1. Re: Don't Worry... by kenh · · Score: 2

      I think they included GI Bill money (which is part student, part federal gov't money) and federally-guaranteed student loans.

      --
      Ken
  3. Good by geek · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I had a friend that worked at the office of one of these campuses. She told me that 99% of the time they didn't even have a teacher for the class until the day before it started, let alone lesson plans or anything else. She quit after the second FBI raid and never looked back.

  4. Went to ITT by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Having gone to ITT Tech AND then having gone to get my BSEE from an accredited university I can say without doubt those schools are designed to let you pass with a minimum amount of effort. HOWEVER, you CAN get a tremendous amount of knowledge IF you step up to do the extra work, which is what I did. That being said if you are willing to step up and be that self motivated to do that much work then it's no harder to go to a normal uni and getting a real degree.. which I did 2 years after going to ITT tech.. it was an expensive waste of time and energy that would have been better put to something else.... like a real degree. I did find the first few years of EE classes pretty easy due to what I had previously learned... but the path I took mistakenly took is not one I would recommend for others.. It REALLY wasn't worth it in time or money.

    good riddance.

    1. Re:Went to ITT by Acron · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I guess it's gotten a lot worse from 20+ years ago. My ITT two year degree from 23 years ago is accredited, and employers at the time were very happy with graduates from the particular ITT I attended. At the time, they had a 100% placement rate for everyone who graduated and did not go on to further education (and that was my whole reason for going, as my 4 year engineering degree from a top 10 school got me and 70% of the graduating class na-da : and the rest broke down as 20% going on to grad school and 10% being the chem engineers getting hired to go work in Saudi Arabia). But that quality came from the local ITT staff, not the corporate level. I heard even back then that the quality of your education depended on which location you went to. And it was definitely a heck of a lot easier than my 4 year degree, but also one heck of a lot more practical (which makes sense given it was a degree for a technician working on circuit boards, etc, not an engineer designing parts or systems).

  5. Re:Job training by JackieBrown · · Score: 2

    This is the way it used to be. You learned a trade and went to work.

    Not everyone is cut out for University and have no reason to go - other than accumulating large amounts of debt

  6. so sad :( by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    I was a student there. That was the best 7 years of my life -- good friends, better drugs, best sex. I'd drink a red bull and viagra on Friday afternoon and fuck 10-15 dudes before Monday came around. I'm working as a fullstack junior web engineer at a SF startup so there's just as much, if not more, sex, but I miss the drugs and friends. Skipping work because I'm hungover isn't quite the same as skipping class because I'm hungover.

    I plan on doing my own startup in a couple months, once I get a cofounder, raise a series A and find an idea. I wouldn't be here without ITT so this is a little sad for me :(

  7. Finally! by ErichTheRed · · Score: 2

    I know ITT Tech and other for-profit schools fill a gap in the education system, but this whole sector seems perfectly positioned to scam uneducated people out of student loan money, VA benefits, trade adjustment benefits, etc. and give them very little in return.

    The vast majority of potential students would be much better served going to community college, or if they're in a strong union state, joining a trade's apprenticeship program and actually getting paid while learning.

  8. Simple rule by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    There should be a simple rule, NO federal loans going to FOR PROFIT institutions. It does not make sense to give out federal loans to institutions that exist mainly to make money out of their students.

  9. Re:Well Good. by TechyImmigrant · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Now people can take a look at their local community college options without being distracted by ITT ads.

    Right, that's what kept people from applying to their local community college...

    If the feds could arrange to move the the $580 billion to the community colleges to fund more technical programs, they might find they get value for money.

    Don't confuse federal loan guarantees with actual money - that $580 Million (not Billion) is owed by the students to the lenders, not as grants from the federal government. In order for the local community colleges to get the $580 Million that previously went to ITT Tech the local community colleges would have to raise tuition to the level charged by ITT Tech.

    In the case of my local college, it was oversubscribed and the technical programs were limited and oriented to licensed trades.
    However for first year college, they cover the same stuff as any other college for a fraction of the price and the results counted towards a degree in the state universities. So you if you played it right, you could get a serious discount on your education. This worked for 2 of 4 children, the other 2 went straight to uni. It also serves as a path to escape high school early. College is such a better learning environment than high school.

    Hence - if the US government wants cost effective college teaching, fund the community colleges to do it. They have a track record and a customer base. The local colleges would not need to raise tuition at all. They are able to teach at a specific cost per student. There's no need for it to change because they take on a few more techy courses.

    Point taken on it being loans though.

    --
    I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
  10. Re:devry & ITT used to be good but collage for by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    my god man. what skool did you's go to for lerning to spelling?

    I want to make damn sure my kids do not land in the same place!

  11. Between Trump U and this story by marmot7 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    People now have no excuse to choose to go into debt to attend one of these places. If there are still people open to a pitch like this, what else can be done? Sure, go after the colleges but they're like moles. It's buyer beware and take some responsibility. Frankly, I would choose a state university or community college or some other option that enables you to get a decent education without too much debt. It's not worth the crazy debt levels and everyone should now know that the for profit college space is more than a bit sketchy.

  12. False equivilency by sjbe · · Score: 4, Insightful

    So when are the FEDs going to shut down the big Universities? $180,000 of student loans and NO JOB prospects ... They aren't being honest either.

    You do realize that you don't have to go to an expensive private university, right? Anyway if I go get a Harvard degree it will cost me a lot of money but I will in all likelihood have gotten an actual education along the way. You can argue that it isn't a good deal financially but you do get something at the end of the day. If you can't turn a Harvard degree into some sort of job you're doing it wrong. Comparing Harvard to or even a state university to ITT Tech is ridiculous.

    Companies like ITT (I don't really think of them as schools) basically provide a near worthless degree which nobody respects and doesn't open doors. They do so knowing that a large percentage of their customers (students) will fail out. They exist to load credulous low income people with debt while failing to provide them a real education. They prey on people who probably really aren't the sort of people who are college material in the first place. College is great but it isn't the right path for everyone. Trade schools would serve many of them much better and there is a clear need for skilled trades.

    1. Re:False equivilency by dosius · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Part of the problem is that there's a push to put as many high school students into college (even 2-year college) as possible, even those who would be better served going to vocational schools.

      Protip: You can't outsource blue collar work.

      -uso.

      --
      What you hear in the ear, preach from the rooftop Matthew 10.27b
    2. Re:False equivilency by jeff4747 · · Score: 2

      Protip: You can't outsource blue collar work.

      That's what "temporary" employment visas are for.

    3. Re:False equivilency by Etcetera · · Score: 2

      So when are the FEDs going to shut down the big Universities? $180,000 of student loans and NO JOB prospects ... They aren't being honest either.

      You do realize that you don't have to go to an expensive private university, right? Anyway if I go get a Harvard degree it will cost me a lot of money but I will in all likelihood have gotten an actual education along the way. You can argue that it isn't a good deal financially but you do get something at the end of the day. If you can't turn a Harvard degree into some sort of job you're doing it wrong. Comparing Harvard to or even a state university to ITT Tech is ridiculous.

      Companies like ITT (I don't really think of them as schools) basically provide a near worthless degree which nobody respects and doesn't open doors. They do so knowing that a large percentage of their customers (students) will fail out. They exist to load credulous low income people with debt while failing to provide them a real education. They prey on people who probably really aren't the sort of people who are college material in the first place. College is great but it isn't the right path for everyone. Trade schools would serve many of them much better and there is a clear need for skilled trades.

      What part of "ITT Technical Institute" makes you think that you're not going into a program that's functionally at the trade school level? In San Diego, it and Coleman College were both seen by anyone I've known as a way to learn functional skills in a given area. It's not a 4 year collegiate undergrad experience, and I can't see why anyone would think so.

      People are ragging on "for-profit colleges" as some hideous evil, but whatever your experiences with Brightpoint, Ashford, or some other trendy places, ITT and Coleman have been around forever and shouldn't be lumped together with these.

      --
      Hire a Linux system administrator, systems engineer,
    4. Re:False equivilency by zrobotics · · Score: 4, Insightful

      While you can't outsource blue collar work, look at the way many of the trades have changed in the last quarter century. While plumbing, electrical, and HVAC are still great money-makers, many other trades are nowhere near as good as they once were. Craftsmanship isn't valued, customers don't know or care how shoddily their mcmansions are built. Additionally, it's hard to find Americans (of any race) who are willing and able to do the work. Anyone with a work ethic and half a brain has been convinced they need college and an office job. Technology has also eliminated many blue collar jobs, mainly in manufacturing. This is happening worldwide; a machinist friend is one of only two machinists employed at his plant. 15 years ago this company employed 14 machinists and machine operators, and the business has grown since then. While the trades are safer than programming jobs, they aren't immune or safe by any measure.

  13. Re:State colleges give garbage degrees by ScentCone · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'm sorry but state colleges give garbage degrees. My brother just graduated from the University of Maine degree with a liberal arts degree and is sweeping floors at a gas station.

    No, your brother chose a garbage major, and chose to spend a lot of money on an education that doesn't align with a career doing anything but sweeping floors at that gas station. It's not the state college's responsibility to make your brother face reality and study something that's actually challenging. If he wants to take on debt so he can spend four years on poetry or Russian literature or on women's studies, that's his business, and HIS debt. Quit whining - yourself, and on his behalf. You're as bad as he is, if you're blaming anyone other than him for his absurd choices.

    --
    Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
  14. What liberal arts actually means by sjbe · · Score: 2, Insightful

    But a degree in Liberal Arts won't get me me a high paying job

    Basically nobody has a degree in Liberal Arts. Liberal arts is a group of subjects which includes many of the the STEM fields. If you have a degree in Physics you have a liberal arts degree. Same with Mathematics, Chemistry, Earth Sciences, Biology, plus of course Languages, Literature, Psychology, Philosophy, Social Sciences, Arts, and more.

    Some liberal arts degrees are more valuable to employers than others but saying that liberal arts as a whole = no jobs is to misunderstand the term.

    1. Re:What liberal arts actually means by rjh · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Liberal arts is rooted in theoretical nonsense...

      I hold a B.A. in computer science from a fairly good private college. One of my best friends graduated with a triple-major B.A. in physics, mathematics, and computer science, from the same institution. Other close friends from undergrad received B.A. degrees in chemistry, biology, geology, environmental science, and botany.

      In fact, my undergrad alma mater doesn't offer the B.Sc. degree at all.

      In 20 years in the software industry, not once has anyone ever asked whether I hold a B.A. or a B.Sc. It's a total nonissue. Some institutions offer the B.A., some offer the B.Sc., some offer both but differentiate them on how many differential calculus classes you've taken.

    2. Re: What liberal arts actually means by DingerX · · Score: 2

      The Liberal Arts are originally those pursuits (arts) deemed worthy of a late-Roman free (hence Liberal) man. Taken up in the nineteenth century, the idea is applied to free citizens in a free society (and some skools run by abolitionists were very aggressive in their application of the ideal). The 6th-century codification of the liberal arts that formed the original "undergraduate" curriculum at the first universities was: Trivium: grammar, rhetoric, and logic Quadrivium: arithmetic, geometry, music, astronomy To which they added Physics and Metaphysics So, yeah, it was all what they called "philosophy" Engineering? That's for slaves. In short, a Liberal Arts degree is by definition not a degree for a career, but someone with a Liberal Arts degree has the critical skills and interests to be a valuable asset. The rest you'd have to train anyway.

  15. Dumb by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "We live in a society that does not value education at all,"

    1) We have a society that effectively mandates education for a minimum of 12 years

    2) We spend more per pupil than any country in the world to educate people

    3) The subsidies to universities number in the hundreds billions of dollars

    4) We encourage everyone to go to college. Everyone.

    If you're whining that you don't get college for free, keep in mind that if you lived in a society that pays for "free" college, the admission standards for college would have to be raised so that only the 10% of the smartest people are allowed to go to college.

    You would likely be excluded from any sort of higher education based on your complete lack of ability to even articulate a problem properly.

  16. For-profit? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    So what about all of the universities that operate with the same motives? I happen to know that the drive to get more Adjunct
    Faculty is money/profit driven. As are all of the fees ( Parking, meals, activity, recreational, computer, lab, etc... ).
    They scream for tuition and fee hikes while having billions of endowments and holdings...
    Graduate students are used as cheap intellectual laborers...
    Most Universities ask a job applicant (technical only, in my experience ) "How much money can you bring in?"
    Research money pays a lot of bills...

    So, in my opinion, most universities have shifted from behaving like educational institutions to behaving like corporations.....
    This is a big mistake. Really Big.

    But the world will go on, and after the excrement structure falls apart, small conclaves of educators will begin rebuilding
    education from the rubble left.

  17. My former "school" went down too by wjcofkc · · Score: 2

    Just before the dot com collapse of the last century, I was just getting started with a couple years of freelance PC tech stuff and minor web design under my belt as I worked my way up the business desktop support chain at Gateway dreaming of more challenging things. These "schools" were hot stuff then. I foolishly decided to go for it. I don't remember the name of the place, although a lady friend of mine I met there insists to this day it was a satellite office for Stanford University. Needless to say it is not, she does not work in IT, and the school went poof shortly thereafter.

    As a testament to their teaching, in the Linux class, I had to show the instructor how to compile source code and so on. By the time I was thinking about calling quits, it was obvious that I was now effectively teaching the more general A+, Network, 50+ student class. The day before an open note test, the lady mentioned above asked to xerox my notes. When I came in the next day, every last student had a copy of my notes. Why? Because they had zero confidence. I walked right out.

    So now I am just reminiscing but you get the idea.

    --
    Brought to you by Carl's Junior.
  18. Re:What about DeVry? by OrangeTide · · Score: 2

    DeVry and ITT both have ripped off so many of my classmates. People, mostly from working class families, tried to get a technical degree they could use right away. But instead they got a mountain of debt and a degree that was often not of any value once the person got even a year of industry experience. Getting that first job with just a DeVry degree is a matter of luck, luck that employers didn't simply throw out your resume.

    --
    “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
  19. Trades by sjbe · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Part of the problem is that there's a push to put as many high school students into college (even 2-year college) as possible, even those who would be better served going to vocational schools.

    I could not agree more. I have a staff full of people who are definitely not college material but would be (and are) served well by a vocational education. There is always a need for skilled trades, welders, machinists, etc. Trying to turn everyone into a computer programmers regardless of aptitude is just idiotic and counterproductive. Not to mention costly.

    Protip: You can't outsource blue collar work.

    Care to wager on that? Ask the folks who work the assembly lines in Detroit if blue collar work cannot be outsourced. There are plenty of blue collar jobs that are very vulnerable to outsourcing when you live in a place with high labor costs like the US.

    1. Re:Trades by 0100010001010011 · · Score: 2

      skilled trades, welders, machinists, etc

      And those were great 19th & 20th century trades. The 21st century trades are IT, networking, programmers, etc. Part of what makes it hard to get modern trades started is people like most Slashdotters that insist programming requires a 4 year degree.

  20. Received $$$ via government loans by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    "ITT Tech received an estimated $580 million in federal money (aka taxpayer dollars),"

    The wording in the article and summary make it sound like government just wrote them a check. Wrong. The school received the money because its students, like 70+% of the rest of the students in the country, are taking government loans and grants to pay for their schooling.

    Too bad the story wasn't about the Department of Education closing its doors forever.

  21. Re:Loans by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 5, Interesting

    What we really need in this country are 4-year community colleges that are really focused on delivering value.

    What we really need are good 2-year vocational schools + apprenticeships that teach young people actually useful skills, like plumbing, mechanic, welding, electrician, etc.

    My company recently advertised a marketing position, and we got over 300 applications.

    I recently tried to find a plumber for a kitchen remodel, and it took me over 3 weeks to find someone who wasn't fully booked for the next month, and he was only able to squeeze my job in by working on Sundays while my daughter watched his kids. I paid him $80/hr, and he paid my daughter $5/hr for babysitting, so he netted $75.

  22. There goes that job track by damn_registrars · · Score: 3, Funny

    I was considering applying to be faculty at ITT. I figured at this point in my career if I can no longer be part of the solution I might as well be part of the problem, right? I'll have to find a different for-profit college to go after instead.

    --
    Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
  23. Re:State colleges give garbage degrees by dcollins · · Score: 2

    I went to the University of Maine and starting almost immediately afterward I've been working with Harvard-trained people, on AAA PC video games in Boston, and now as a full-time college math lecturer in New York. I always felt that you got out what you put into it.

    There's a legitimate debate to be had whether a student like your brother would be better off if they'd been flunked out or not accepted by the university in question. Most of the cultural pressure, however, is to pass those students on.

    --
    We know where leadership by an anti-intellectual "strongman" who scapegoats minorities and likes boisterous rallies goes
  24. Re:Well Good. by slew · · Score: 2

    Hence - if the US government wants cost effective college teaching, fund the community colleges to do it. They have a track record and a customer base. The local colleges would not need to raise tuition at all. They are able to teach at a specific cost per student. There's no need for it to change because they take on a few more techy courses.

    As a reminder that sometimes community colleges aren't necessarily the panacea you only need to look at City College of San Francisco...

    Apparently the financial governance at CCSF is so bad, they have been threatened with losing their accreditation. They are currently now on probation. Elected officials (since it is a public community college, board members are elected by the citizens of SF) were convicted of diverting/laundering bond money to finance election campaigns, and accreditation audits showed 14 failures including maintaining minimum spending levels required for students, failure to track educational outcomes, allowing department heads control over the payroll system that allowed for systematic overpayment for travel expenses and recurring payment to contractors that no longer had assigned jobs, over-funding politically popular department, and short changing student access to courses that could transfer to the university system, etc. On top of this, the board approved a silly capital improvement bond and went on a silly construction binge (including a mostly vacant "chinatown" branch) which is thought to have been pushed by contractor donations to the bond campaign.

    Over protests by student groups and faculty, the state finally decided to step in and strip the CCSF board of their oversight powers and appointed a special trustee to see if they can correct the situation before the probation period expires (in Jan 2017) and CCSF could end up closing their doors.

    Of course there are many community colleges that do an excellent job, but like all red-blue generalizations, there is a lot of grey in the middle.

  25. Re:$580 Million in "taxpayer money" by rahvin112 · · Score: 2

    ITT was one of the groups that specifically targeted GI's. At one point I remember reading that 80% of their revenue came from the DOD. The Fed's have moved aggressively against these colleges targeting vet's. ITT was disbarred from taking GI bill money a week or so ago and this is the result.

  26. Re:finally by tripleevenfall · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The private universities are amateurs. Look at the public ones. Palatial campuses, massively inflated salaries, infinite job security, price gouging, on and on

  27. Re:Oh Noes! by HornWumpus · · Score: 2

    If you don't want a degree, you can just take any courses you want at the CC.

    While I was in HS I took the whole drafting sequence at the local CC, along with a couple of programming languages. Saved my 2 courses in Engineering school, but that wasn't the point.

    --
    John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
  28. Good. by JustNiz · · Score: 2

    Good riddance.
    This will end one of the major sources of hacky/bad programmers.

  29. too dificult to hire people for ( 1year) internsh by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 4, Insightful

    So you want free labor?

  30. Germany has a good apprenticeship system by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Germany has a good apprenticeship system that mixes real paid work with a trade school like classroom. That is what is needed in the USA and not years of pure class room at an high cost.

  31. Re:Loans by funwithBSD · · Score: 3, Funny

    My nephew just turned 27, and makes 100K+ with overtime as a high voltage electrician.

    I have a degree, and 20 years on him, and I make just a bit more than him.

    However, my office is not 100+ ft in the air, with 45 mph crosswinds and humming 100K voltage lines of death over head.

    My hats off to him, I will stick with the computer and office chair.

    --
    Never answer an anonymous letter. - Yogi Berra
  32. Re:too dificult to hire people for ( 1year) intern by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 3, Insightful

    No, but the pay cap is about $8-10/hour and it can't fund healthcare benefits. Paying $15/hour when investing so much in a person (18-20 year old child) just doesn't work. Honestly, I would prefer to pay $5/hour plus pay for some formal courses for them to take (of our choosing).

    There is a way to do it, but it takes a lot of paperwork and you need to prove they aren't doing billable work or something. It ends up being more community service than anything-- which I don't really object to, but there isn't much in the way of a business benefit.

  33. that is why an apprenticeship system is needed and by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 2

    that is why an apprenticeship system is needed and gov can take that grant / loan funds to fund it. But not the big corps want the locked to job H1B's that they can unpay and work 60-80 hours.

    Say you pay $5/hr and grant covers other costs / the student has to cover their class room costs and you can kick in if you want to.

  34. Re:finally by MoarSauce123 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Correct! Expenses for Academia at State Universities have been flat the past 15 years while administrative expenses (especially college athletics!!!!) have risen by over 300%. So all that high tuition does not go to the profs, but to the greatest money waster of all time: college sports and licked campus gardening. My advice: learn German and study in Germany. Top notch universities with 0€ tuition.