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How Cities Are Using Dry Ice To Kill Rats (usatoday.com)
Some of the United States' biggest cities have resorted to using dry ice to kill rats. Since dry ice (frozen carbon dioxide) turns into a gas, sanitation officials simply need to drop chunks of it into rat infested burrows and let science do the rest. Longtime Slashdot reader mi writes: USA Today reports: "Earlier this week, USA TODAY observed Chicago sanitation department workers at one of the city's oldest parks scoop chunks of smoking dry ice into a burrow before quickly covering the entry and exit holes with dirt and newspaper to stop any rats from escaping as the -109.3-degree Fahrenheit gas dissipated. Sanitation workers say they treat burrows during morning hours, when rats are less active and most likely to be huddled inside the burrows. The asphyxiated dead rats then decompose in place and out-of-sight of city denizens who count the disease-carrying vermin among the vilest of indignities of urban living. 'We are seeing 60% fewer burrows in areas where we are using the dry ice,' said Charles Williams, Chicago's streets and sanitation commissioner. 'It's more environmentally friendly, and it's very humane on the rodents as well.'" Humane or not, what is so especially "undignified" about rats? What makes them worse, than, for example, cats, deer or wild horses?
Asphyxiation via C02 is an absolutely HORRIBLE way to die, regardless of the creature. There's a reason Carbogen (C02/Oxygen mix) is used to induce anxiety to test out anxiolytics. I mean I get that they need to solve the infestation problem but can't we choose a method that isn't also a completely inhumane method?
I have pet rats and I think this is extremely cruel. Rats are highly intelligent and make super companions to humans - equally as affectionate as dogs in every way, and yes, you can train rats in much the same way.
Carbon Dioxide asphyxiation is inhumane because it's painful and traumatic. Lungs burn. Head hurts, etc.
Nitrogen asphyxiation is humane because it puts you to sleep without any pain or trauma. You just peacefully go to sleep and never wake up.
Watch the videos where they experimented on pigs. Pig eating at nitrogen feeding chamber passes out and falls back into normal air, wakes back up, and immediately goes back to munching in the nitrogen like nothing happened.
They carry disease, eat infrastructure, chew holes in your house, shit and pee on your stuff, chew holes in your stuff, eat and contaminate your food, and many more things I can't fit into the margin of this book.
Maybe someone should get them to watch Apollo 13.
"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
They still haven't shaken off the stigma of the bubonic plague. But somehow cats have gotten away with schizophrenia for all these years.
Was the bubonic plague started by cats, deer or wild horses? Silly Op...
When I was a kid, I used to help my grandfather try to control moles around his cattle. Cattle, horses, etc. would step into the entrance to the mole's burrow and break a leg.
"Humane or not, what is so especially "undignified" about rats? What makes them worse, than, for example, cats, deer or wild horses?"
The author of the summary has obviously never had a rat infestation. They can swim, dig several feet down, chew through concrete, plastic, wood, drywall, and otherwise go to amazing destructive measures to get to a heat or food source. Unlike mice, keeping your food in the cupboard or Tupperware containers is useless as they chew right through them, and destroy your home's foundation while they are at it. No, rats are not at all like wild horses, cats, or deer. Rats are a special kind of hell.
If you need an ecological reason. The destructive urban rats are an invasive species, not native to North America. We brought them here - and I for one applaud every effort to get rid of them.
Cats, deer, and wild horses generally won't climb walls and crawl into your house. And they don't share rats' long history of spreading disease and eating grain from storage containers. Deer are food. Horses can be tamed and used to do valuable work. Cats can be tamed and used to protect grain from rodents.
Fleas.
"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
Rats are very clean animals.
Except, you know, for:
lymphocytic choriomeningitis ...but except for those, VERY CLEAN!
bubonic plague
typhus
hantavirus
leptospirosis
rat-bite fever (it's a real thing; look it up)
salmonellosis
Colorado tick fever
cutaneous leishmaniasis
... like how killing city rats may cause diseases to spread faster:
http://nautil.us/issue/38/nois...
Now, it's possible that this technique manages to kill every rat in the colony, so they don't scatter ... but as rats that weren't in the burrow would realize that something is up when they come back, this could be a problem.
I'd think they'd want to use carbon monoxide, not dioxide, at the very least ... assuming that rats have the same problems w/ humans in detecting it.
Build it, and they will come^Hplain.
> Fleas.
No, rats. The fleas are just a vector to get it from rats to people. The fleas come with the rats.
...I agree with nuking them. Living (voluntarily) in the country (North Georgia USA) I've come to very much appreciate the variety of life and their interactions, and I very much try to not screw with that to the degree possible. However...when the rats chew through my AC duct work and invade my living space, I kill the fuckers. I've drowned them, stomped them with boots and never felt an iota of the guilt of an errant daddy-longlegs caught in a bad spot.
Carbon Dioxide suffocation is pretty bad. It's basically the only form of suffocation your body is designed to violently react to. When killing rodents industrially for reptile feed, nitrogen suffocation is generally considered humane because they just fall asleep.
If rats have the same asphyxiation response as humans to CO2, this is a very painful way for them to die. The same effect could be had with liquid nitrogen.
'We are seeing 60% fewer burrows in areas where we are using the dry ice,' said Charles Williams, Chicago's streets and sanitation commissioner. 'It's more environmentally friendly, and it's very humane on the rodents as well.'"
There is ongoing discussion over whether or not CO2 is humane for euthanizing rodents. It is not lack of oxygen that causes distress when holding your breath, but excess CO2. It is thought by some that lab and feeder rodents are put through unnecessary stress by using CO2 instead of an alternative gas/method.
Their ability to reproduce exponentially would mean that every edible morsel of food in the area, whether human, pet, or more generic foodstuff, would necessarily be converted into more rats within a few years time.
Rats are nature's version of Grey Goo.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I posit that the term "two dog night" doesn't even exist at all. I have never heard anyone say it. I *HAVE* however, heard of a band called "Three Dog Night". Perhaps you were just missing a dog.
I assume you're grossed out by squirrels as well, right? They're basically cute, stupid rats after all.
--- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
nuke them from orbit or send in laser equipped alligators into the sewers?
by TheSpoom (715771) Uncaring Linux user here. I have nothing to add to this but please continue. *munches popcorn*
I'd be careful of that metric - human penises are among the smallest in the animal kingdom, relative to body size, and there's a LOT of animals as large or larger than us.
--- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
Cats kill rats!
they are not vermin, they control them.
Why is big government doing the job of the private sector?
Who invested in vans, trucks, equipment and had to tender, bid for rat control work.
Governments that set standards are using cheap science to alter the natural balance of capitalism.
Think of the chemical sales, support jobs, local businesses that are all working to keep trucks stocked and chemicals flowing with the long term aim to stabilise rat populations.
A large self supporting rat population can provide decades of control work, with very few of the larger rats noticed out during the day.
If the rat populations are allowed to drop so dramatically in one generation thanks to big gov meddling, think of the local jobs lost.
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
The beauty of CO2 is that it's heavier than air and will fill the entire burrow. Nitrogen is about as dense as the air itself (which is 79% nitrogen anyway), so the effect won't be there.
Liquid nitrogen is liquid and much heavier than air. It will seek low spots.
Freshly evaporated gassious nitrogen is cold. Cold gasses are more dense than warmer ones and thus also seek low places.
So liquid nitrogen will produce cold nitrogen gas which will also remain in the burrow and displace the oxygen, much like the (heavier) carbon dioxide, though it's only heavier due to its lower temperature. This will produce humane suffocation by lack of oxygen without a corresponding increase in the (detectable by the respiratory system) carbon dioxide that provides the sensation of suffocation. The rats will just go to sleep and die in their sleep.
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
Maybe the rats ate it.
If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
I think you just butt-posted on Slashdot.
You are going to be soooo embarrassed when your friends hear about this.
If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
Fleas.
No, rats. The fleas are just a vector to get it from rats to people.
Specifically, it was the black rat, which is migratory and wandered around, spreading the plague.
One of the reasons we don't have all that much plague these days is that the Norwegian Brown Rat, which tends to hang around in a small territory, displaced the Black Rat.
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
It takes a lot more Nitrogen, since Nitrogen isn't poisonous.
Play Command HQ online
I am not. They make good tree fertilizer.
Remember that one time when rats killed off half of Europe? And we're now discussing how best to hug them until they go night-night?
I do believe in compassion for animals. That means we take no pleasure in their deaths, and protect them from suffering beyond what's necessary for our civilization. I buy cage-free eggs, for example. But humanity must have two aspects - a hand of love, and a fist of justice. Rats are up there with mosquitoes in terms of existential threats to us, so isn't it obvious which side of us they should see?
I am lucky enough to have never seen a rat, in person, in my 37 years, and I realize they are probably important in natural ecosystems. But even still, inside of our settlements, no method of dealing with them would feel off-limits to me. When I first read the headline of this story, I assumed the rats were somehow being tricked into eating the dry ice, and later exploding. I thought, "oh, that's clever! I guess that's why it's on Slashdot."
"Humane or not, what is so especially "undignified" about rats? What makes them worse, than, for example, cats, deer or wild horses?"
Well, there's the fact that cats, deer and wild horses rarely gnaw wires inside walls or leave feces in suspended ceilings. Oh, and they don't usually carry the Black Death.
I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
Yeah. I just helped somebody doing a kitchen reno and trust me, an old rodent nest full of insulation, fur, and shit is *not* something you want run into in your home. Aside from being fucking gross, there's also the issue of the multitude of illnesses you can get from inhaling the dust etc.
For the record, I've had rats as pets (they make good pets, too), and they're cute+smart. Verminous rats are a big nope though.
I've dealt with rodents more often than I'd like. I've used quite a few different methods to catch them.
- Poisons are horrible. Plus you sometimes end up with decomposing animals in places you can't easily get to. Don't do this.
- Old-fashioned classic snap traps work, mostly. Occasionally I've had mice go for the bait at an odd angle and get pinned alive, though. And rat snap traps are just too dangerous if you have kids or pets. Also, once I had a rat set a mouse trap off. I heard this horrible squeal and went out there to find a rat sitting stunned, next to the trap. At that point your only option is to club the thing to death.
- The so-called "better mouse traps" (plastic re imaginings of the classic mouse trap) aren't better. I've had rodents manage to extricate themselves from those things. They do work well on smaller mice or smaller rats.
My current preferred method is using live traps - the ones which are open at both ends. Then, once I've caught something, I drop the entire trap into a large plastic basin filled with water.
#DeleteChrome
Squirrel=Treerat.
Pigeon=Skyrat.
But they are very large by primate standards.
I think the company that comes up with a robotic pest hunter first will make a mint. A roomba or Dyson that murders mice and rats. In NYC if it just wanders around a room at night stabbing bedbugs in the head it'll be worth a king's ransom.
Elements are only allowed to have one toxic oxide, are they? Better get a warrant for sulphur, then.
I suppose they put CO2 scrubbers on submarines and spacecraft for decoration.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
All these rats eat stuff and poo it in the burrows. That will not happen anymore if you kill the rats. Hope they factored in the cost of moving all that stuff. I'll bet it will get more disgusting than the rats fairly soon.
[site]
If I could be a fly on the wall of the meeting where you tried to explain why you used liquid nitrogen to kill rats, I wish you would attempt it.
They do this in parks -- you know those areas with grass and trees...
As you would need much more nitrogen to displace the oxygen instead of using CO2 which is toxic at low levels, you'd also need a lot more liquid nitrogen. The purchase and transport of sufficient amounts of CO2 to treat a park is going to be much more expensive than cheap CO2.
Using that much liquid N2 would also freeze the soil -- and the root systems of the grass and trees.
You: "The rats in park xyz are all dead and it only cost a few thousand dollars"
Mayor: "So is all the plant life in the park around your treatments, you could have killed off only the rats for a few hundred and now replanting the park is going to take over a hundred grand!!!"
You: "ehhhh..."
Democracy is a sheep and two wolves deciding what to have for lunch. Freedom is a well armed sheep contesting the issue
Liquid nitrogen is, by definition, a liquid. Liquids would be more difficult to handle than a solid. It's also colder, very much so, than dry ice which makes it a greater freezing hazard. If someone drops some dry ice then it's not going to flow all over the ground where it can damage property or injure people. A spill of dry ice can be managed with a shovel or gloved hand. Spill some liquid nitrogen and you are not getting it back and you are just going to have to deal with the mess.
Also, the suffocation sensation of elevated CO2 levels is a feature, not a bug. In the case of a N2 leak or spill the workers can pass out and die without knowing anything is wrong. With CO2 the people working with it have a natural aversion to its presence and therefore can leave the area before it can cause harm.
Let the rats suffer, I don't care. It's people I care about. CO2 is cheaper and safer to handle, so I say we use that.
I am armed because I am free. I am free because I am armed.
Way to solve that problem. Do they also have a solution to the problem of all those dead rats decomposing under Chicago that they're going to have in a couple of months?
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Nitrogen is a weak lifting gas. If you inject it into a burrow it will just float out.
And here we were only discussing rats and their plagues. I think if they are going to control the media, we will need some new dry ice factories for the revolution.
'It's more environmentally friendly, and it's very humane on the rodents as well.'"
"Very humane"? Seriously? I don't have a problem with them taking measures to kill pests but suffocation isn't exactly what I would call humane. Necessary maybe but let's not pretend that they're doing something nice or pleasant to the rats.
I believe this was the theorized process whereby the Pompeiians died post-Vesuvius but pre-buried in ash.
HBI's Law: Frequency of calling others Nazis is directly correlated with the likelihood of the accuser being Communist.
Why not capture them and sell them to zoos for food too the big cats?
Jack of all trades,master of none
Rat = Rat
Pigeon = Flying Rat
Squirrel = Rat with good PR
Fleas.
you're felcome.
Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.