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The Ham Radio Parity Act Unanimously Passed By US House (arrl.org)

This week the U.S. House of Representatives unanimously passed "The Ham Radio Parity Act" -- a huge victory for grass-roots advocates of amateur radio. Slashdot reader bobbied reports: This will allow for the reasonable accommodation of amateur radio antennas in many places where they are currently prohibited by homeowner associations or private land use restrictions... If this bill passes the Senate, we will be one step closer to allowing amateur radio operators, who provide emergency communications services, the right to erect reasonable antenna structures in places where they cannot do so now.
The national ham radio association is now urging supporters to contact their Senators through a special web page. "This is not just a feel-good bill," said representative Joe Courtney, remembering how Hurricane Sandy brought down the power grid, and "we saw all the advanced communications we take for granted...completely fall by the wayside."

127 of 195 comments (clear)

  1. Re:Cell Phone by PPH · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Cell phone base stations go dead after a few hours of power loss.

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
  2. The real issue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Is that deed restricted properties are even allowed under law.

    Only complete idiots thinks it's a good idea to hand over the deed right to you property to an association that can foreclose on you because you let your grass grow to 3" instead of the maximum allowed 2.5".

    These types of places were tolerable only until they started taking over ALL available property within the best school districts, good locations in cities, and other important qualities of a property. Generally based on municipalities who want to collect taxes but not be held accountable for maintaining common spaces (parks, pools, sidewalks, etc.) and thus _require_ all new development to be done under a deed restricted plan. It's a "lovely" work around to that whole pesky property rights issue that governments face due to federal, state and local constitutions, laws, etc.

    1. Re:The real issue by Wrath0fb0b · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The real issue is that some people want to live in a place where their neighbors can't leave trash out or have cars on their lawn (and to have enforcement that has teeth, unlike some municipalities). Some people want to raise roosters, other people think that owning a rooster violates your neighbors' right to quiet enjoyment of their homes. People that want those restrictions, and are in turn willing to accept the reciprocal restrictions on themselves, can voluntarily and knowingly live in a place where everyone agrees on that basic deal.

      Now, that sort of thing isn't for me (and I bought a house in a nice district with functioning public parks and whatnot with no HOA) but it is extremely illiberal to deny a group of people the right to voluntarily associate in a manner than they all find beneficial. And since we are on the topic of choice, I see you are somehow suggesting that the non-HOA living arrangement is somehow in danger, which is patently ridiculous since 20% of existing homes and 40% of new homes don't have one.

      TLDR: Freedom includes the right to create your own arrangements. Some of them might seem silly to us, in which case we should just not partake instead of being righteous about it.

    2. Re:The real issue by Deadstick · · Score: 4, Informative

      Indeed, restrictive covenants were originally invented to keep blacks and Jews out.

    3. Re:The real issue by Shane_Optima · · Score: 4, Interesting

      but it is extremely illiberal to deny a group of people the right to voluntarily associate in a manner than they all find beneficial.

      As a "deregulation libertarian" (for lack of a better term), I really despise this all-too-common perversion of the word "liberalism", whereby one is deemed illiberal if one don't agree with the unlimited privatization of the law and freedom of association is conflated with an unlimited "freedom" for deep-pocketed corporate entities (not actual, singular human beings) to unilaterally foist contracts of adhesion on individuals.

      The perverted (but commonly accepted) libertarian or classical liberal argument is that every contractual restriction that the courts deem invalid is a gross example of big government trampling on individual freedom. I tend to believe exactly the opposite: that every enforcible contract provision, beyond the minimum necessary for societies and essential institutions to function, represents an enlargement of government and should be considered by default undesirable unless there is a compelling argument to the contrary. This is particularly evident in any situation where contracts are neither simple (like the sale of goods) nor negotiable. It also should be particularly evident when one person is signing a multi-page contract with a fictitious legal "person" who has access to a half dozen layers.

      At the end of each one of these "voluntary association" contracts, the vast majority of which are non-negotiable, there are the police with guns drawn to enforce the terms. You can call that many things, but it is not small government, and it is not the pinnacle of freedom.

      Corporations forcing consumers to use shitty, pro-corporate watered down versions of the court system with zero right of appeal (due to binding arbitration clauses) is not liberal. And as the grandparent said: allowing HOAs to snap up all the good land (a limited resource that government traditionally aims to ensure equitable access to) and then set up their own capricious set of permissible usage rules that are ultimately enforced by public police paid for with my tax dollars is not a particularly liberal state of affairs.

      If you still disagree, then I have a simple question for you: do you think people should be allowed to sell themselves into slavery? If not, where do you think the line should be drawn regarding the rights people are allowed to "voluntarily" sign away? It is just on this side of slavery, or are there perhaps other areas that the government shouldn't be sticking their noses into, regardless of what any piece of paper says?

    4. Re:The real issue by FlyHelicopters · · Score: 1

      At the end of each one of these "voluntary association" contracts, the vast majority of which are non-negotiable

      Yes they are, you had the option to NOT buy the property...

      do you think people should be allowed to sell themselves into slavery?

      Yes, they should... Why not? Do you not own your life and yourself?

    5. Re:The real issue by Shane_Optima · · Score: 1

      At the end of each one of these "voluntary association" contracts, the vast majority of which are non-negotiable

      Yes they are, you had the option to NOT buy the property...

      That is not what negotiable means. Go look up "contract of adhesion". Your sophistry to the contrary, non-negotiable contracts are already treated differently than other types of contracts in common law. This is because (in part) the lack of negotiation strongly implies that one side has a monopolistic advantage over the other one, and I would go a step further and claim that when the details are examined it's usually the case that it's a monopoly that the government helped create.

      do you think people should be allowed to sell themselves into slavery?

      Sure, but I don't acknowledge the government's right to arbitrate over any transfer of that ownership.

      These pro-contract law 'freedom' libertarians really need to come up with a new name for themselves. Fascio-libertarians is actually rather fitting (though I realize it has a strong pejorative cast), seeing as how classical fascism is often described as big business backed up by the police.

    6. Re:The real issue by whodunit · · Score: 3, Insightful

      ... so 80% of existing homes ARE subject to an HOA?

    7. Re:The real issue by tranquilidad · · Score: 1

      They're not entirely contracts of adhesion in the way you seem to mean. While entry to the association is non-negotiable; accept the contract or don't live here, the members of the association have the ability to change the rules of their association whenever they collectively wish to do so.

      Your example of a non-negotiable contract of adhesion seems to imply that the HOA is one side of a contractual relationship with which one can never negotiate. The reality is that it is an organization to which property members become members and, as members, can make changes to the rules of the association; or re-negotiate the contract. Some terms can be changed with simple majority votes, some changes with super majority votes and some with unanimous votes.

      A contract of adhesion isn't necessarily bad and one whose terms can be changed by the members is certainly better than one that can't be negotiated or changed such as a shrink-wrap software license.

    8. Re:The real issue by Shane_Optima · · Score: 1

      it's true I was taking a rather broader "in principle" view, since the pro-HOA arguments I read here are very similar to the libertarian or conservative (that allegedly 'small-government' conservatism) arguments often used to argue that the courts should respect all contractual restrictions. Because freedom.

      More specific to the HOA situation, I would say that the addition of democratic-like elements aren't enough to justify suspension of basic property rights. Specifically, "ownership" should in fact be a rather binary thing. You get to do what you want with things you own, period. I'm pretty uncomfortable with contractual rights trumping fundamental property rights, particularly when the property in question is a highly limited and non-fungible one like land. If people really want HOAs to exist then they should probably be changed to have more of a shared stake holder type of structure (so that one is buying into a company with shared ownership of all houses, not buying into a single house) or maybe a rental structure, but I'd have to think about it and research a little more.

      The external implications here are just as important as the internal implications for each HOA member--an HOA would be forced to declare themselves as a single entity owning multiple lots, subject to zoning restrictions and taxation based on size. This could be an organic way of keeping HOA sizes down (so that one is primarily dealing with nearby neighbors) and keeping some non-HOA options available for prospective home buyers. I also think that having "YOU ARE NOT PURCHASING THIS HOME. YOU ARE BUYING INTO XYZ HOMEOWNER ASSOCIATION" at the top of some forms would be helpful, because some people clearly do not understand what they are getting into.

      To recap: the overarching principle should be that you get to choose to do what you want with the stuff you own, and if you aren't allowed to do what you want with your house then it follows that legal structure should be changed so that you do not, in fact, directly own your house. Some interesting related issues here are violations of first sale doctrine, particularly regarding OEM software and digital goods.

    9. Re:The real issue by bmo · · Score: 1

      > I would say that the addition of democratic-like elements aren't enough to justify suspension of basic property rights

      I would add that rights are those things that cannot be taken away by a simple majority vote. If it can be taken away, it wasn't a right in the first place. Either that, or it's an abuse of power of the kind you find in fascist societies.

      --
      BMO

    10. Re:The real issue by slashdot_commentator · · Score: 1

      I see you are somehow suggesting that the non-HOA living arrangement is somehow in danger, which is patently ridiculous since 20% of existing homes and 40% of new homes don't have one.

      What is ridiculous is your lack of facility with the written English language. I'd be quite upset if 80% of existing homes were under the thrall of an HOA.

      TLDR: Freedom includes the right to create your own arrangements. Some of them might seem silly to us, in which case we should just not partake instead of being righteous about it.

      Communism is your neighbor forcing you to fork over fees, and then ordering you as to what you can or cannot do on your property or they'll seize it. It sounds like you're the one being sensitive about criticism for your fascist/pinko lifestyle choices.

      --
      There is no America. There is no democracy. There is only IBM and AT&T and DuPont, Dow, General Electric, and Exxon
    11. Re:The real issue by evilviper · · Score: 3, Interesting

      some people want to live in a place where their neighbors can't leave trash out or have cars on their lawn (and to have enforcement that has teeth, unlike some municipalities). Some people want to raise roosters, other people think that owning a rooster violates your neighbors' right to quiet enjoyment of their homes.

      That's called zoning and code enforcement. You don't need an HOA for any of that at all. Just move into an area zoned residential and you'll have no roosters. If codes aren't being enforced, you let your city representatives know it's important to you, and your family and friends will vote them out next election if they don't make it a priority.

      HOAs are just a bunch of busy-bodies deciding what color you can paint your bike shed, and taking your money so they can play like they're doing something important. Governments keep having to preempt HOA restrictions, no requirements for green grass during a drought, no restrictions on antennas, etc. And it will keep going until HOAs are powerless, as it should, because they're fundamentally detrimental to everyone and everything.

      you are somehow suggesting that the non-HOA living arrangement is somehow in danger, which is patently ridiculous since 20% of existing homes and 40% of new homes don't have one.

      There are big geographic areas in which you simply cannot buy a home without an HOA restriction. If you want to live there, you're screwed. In other areas, you can't find an HOA no matter how hard you try. It's not a nice even mix where you can pick and choose whether you'd like an HOA area, or not.

      HOAs are like an addiction... Whatever the reason you were convinced to start, you can't ever make it stop. At least personal service contracts are limited to 7 years by law. Your property is stuck with that horrible HOA on it for centuries, and owner after owner. A contract you can't ever get out of is borderline slavery.

      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    12. Re:The real issue by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      The real issue is that some people want to live in a place where their neighbors can't leave trash out or have cars on their lawn (and to have enforcement that has teeth, unlike some municipalities).

      The real issue is that people want to point fingers instead of lending a helping hand. Well, fuck them right up their arrogant assholes, and fuck their HOAs too.

      Deed restrictions genuinely are shit. They should not exist, period, the end.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    13. Re:The real issue by Deadstick · · Score: 1

      you had the option to NOT buy the property

      Of course you did: you had every right to move to another country. In today's new-house market, that pretty well sums up your options.

    14. Re: The real issue by Deadstick · · Score: 1

      True. Fortunately, in my Aurora neighborhood we don't give two fucks about our HOA, we ignore its rules, and it hasn't sent out a dues bill for ten or fifteen years for lack of anybody to man it...it's essentially dead. If anybody creates a legitimate public nuisance, a complaint to Code Enforcement is enough to deal with it.

    15. Re:The real issue by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      In today's new-house market, that pretty well sums up your options.

      Oh, nonsense!

      My parents wanted a new house. They looked around for some land out in the country but near to town (and hospitals, they're not getting younger), bought nine acres, built a house to suit them.

      Far as I know, the only requirement that the land purchase had was that they couldn't subdivide the lot. Not even sure that that was there, but I think I remember hearing mom say that back when they bought the place.

      Yes, you're not going to be able to live in "high class" subdivisions without restrictions. That is, after all, why those areas are "high class". But there are plenty of options to buy land and a house (or buy land and build a house) that don't entail onerous restrictions.

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    16. Re:The real issue by davemchine · · Score: 1

      I moved into a small development two years ago that has an HOA. I love the HOA. Every house I've ever owned came with a neighbor who wanted to paint his house purple, play loud music all weekend, park a motorhome in front of my house for the summer, and leave their dogs outside all day with no interaction leading to constant barking. I was relieved to move into a neighborhood were I don't have to put up with that anymore. Of course it also means I had to submit pictures/plans of the shed I intended to build but that's just so the look of the neighborhood is preserved and I didn't mind. A lady two houses down defied the HOA and put a cheapie roof on her house that doesn't match the style of the neighborhood. She then put it up for sale and it took over a year to sell it below what she originally paid. So those rules do seem to help preserve house values. So I love my HOA. I wouldn't force it on anyone but I love them.

    17. Re:The real issue by FlyHelicopters · · Score: 1

      In today's new-house market, that pretty well sums up your options.

      The facts do not support your statement...

      Less than 50% of new homes built today are in a HOA...

    18. Re:The real issue by Shane_Optima · · Score: 1

      That percentage changes drastically from place to place, and many choice areas are completely controlled by HOAs.

      Land isn't fungible; therefore, it is perfectly reasonable to expect the government to not permit (or more accurately, to not send out its police officers to enforce) contractual provisions that undercut basic property rights.

      If you disagree, so be it. But you are advocating for a larger and more intrusive government, whether you admit it or not.

    19. Re:The real issue by Shane_Optima · · Score: 1

      It's a good thing everyone in the country lives where your parents live... oh wait, we don't.

      HOAs are taking over a lot of middle class areas around here. When I looked a few years back, I noticed that the overwhelming majority of newer houses in the $180,000-$200,000 range were HOA controlled. Hooray, everyone gets to pay something like $80/month for life even after their houses are paid off! Furthermore, for some mysterious reason there are several developers refusing to work in non-HOA areas. If some immediate neighbors want to get together *after* their home purchase and sign some sort of basic agreement to keep their lawns clean that might be fine, but what's happening here probably has a lot more to do with oligarchical enrichment schemes than making sure the neighborhood stays clean.

    20. Re:The real issue by dywolf · · Score: 1

      HOAs are like many things a blessing and curse.

      The idea of protecting property values from outside influences outside the scope of zoning law is a good one. there is a benefit to preventing a neighbor from turning his home into a sewage treatment plant (or dog poo manufacturing facility, with 6 dogs in a 4k sq ft lot), and thus negatively impacting the value of everyone around him's most valuable investment.

      but there are also the HOAs that go too far: the anal rules about, grass, color, what can and cant be grown in a garden, etc.

      like most things that can be good or bad, they need a healthy dose of reasonableness. it is after all, ultimately just another form of collaborative self-government theoretically comprised of the homeowners in the area, and along with that just like with regular civil government, while burning it to the ground is as always an option when things don't go your way, the better option is getting involved.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    21. Re:The real issue by dywolf · · Score: 1

      HOAs are interesting.
      on the one hand its a form of self-government or organization to have a say and protect each other from each other.
      which is fine when everyone joined originally.

      but when someone sells and leaves, the case of the person moving into the area and being forced to join with no option is interesting as a debate topic. the original owner joined willingly when the HOA was setup. But the new owner is joined because the membership is now tied to the property.

      --

      as for slavery, no they shouldn't, because libertarianism is ultimately idiotic, as questions like the "should you be able to sell yourself into slavery" question reveal, and when its adherents say "yes" the reveal what libertarianism truly is: anarchy for the rich, slavery for the poor.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    22. Re:The real issue by cant_get_a_good_nick · · Score: 1

      totally random, but for some reason this popped in my head, a small comedy bit from the Rat Pack.

      Q (to Sammy Davis Jr.): Oh you golf? What's your handicap?
      A: I'm a one-eyed black Jew.

    23. Re:The real issue by bobbied · · Score: 1

      Is that deed restricted properties are even allowed under law.

      I almost agree with you. Think about the long term affects of CC&R's and I shudder to think what's going to happen in 40 or 60 years. It's going to be a mess to clean up all this legally when we want to redevelop the all these lots with the ramshackle old shacks which need to be leveled.

      Personally, I believe that CC&R's should have a sunset provision, where the HOA and the CC&R's should be required to demonstrate that the majority of lot owners still want the covenants every decade or so, or they cease to exist. So they will exist as long as a majority of lot owners still want them, and eventually terminate once their usefulness is gone.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    24. Re:The real issue by bobbied · · Score: 1

      At the end of each one of these "voluntary association" contracts, the vast majority of which are non-negotiable

      Yes they are, you had the option to NOT buy the property...

      Actually, the argument I've heard goes this way. There are not really any houses available which are of similar age, cost and location that don't have CC&R's. I know in my area, nearly ALL the builders have boiler plate CC&R's that prohibit ALL antennas, and good luck finding a new house that doesn't. So in a way, hams don't really have a choice. Sure, they can incur a longer commute, spend more, or buy an older home that's not subject to CC&R's, but in many cases economics and location pretty much lock you in. It did me. I purchased my home 15 years ago, full knowing it had CC&R's and likely didn't allow antenna structures. I'm not kicking or grousing about it, but if the FCC saw their way clear to pre-empt local land use (zoning laws) regulations, I didn't see the logic in refusing to pre-empt CC&R's too.

      After all, hams are literally 0.2% of the population. The likely hood that one lives close enough that you could see his/her antenna from your house is pretty small... But that didn't stop my HOA from putting the k-bosh on my attempts to get even a modest 63' vertical tower (no guy wires or added structures, just a plain tower 43' with 20' of pipe on the top approved. I doubt anybody would have noticed the thing except my nearest backyard neighbors.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    25. Re:The real issue by FlyHelicopters · · Score: 1

      Land isn't fungible; therefore, it is perfectly reasonable to expect the government to not permit (or more accurately, to not send out its police officers to enforce) contractual provisions that undercut basic property rights.

      What exactly are "basic property rights"?

      Go back a few hundred years and many Native Americans didn't think people could even own land, it belonged to everyone.

      You're inserting your personal viewpoint and opinion and assuming it is fact. Something to consider anyway...

      If you disagree, so be it. But you are advocating for a larger and more intrusive government, whether you admit it or not.

      Not as much as you think... I think people have the right to enter into contracts as they see fit, you think government should step in and protect people from themselves.

      Which one of us is REALLY for "larger government" again?

    26. Re:The real issue by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      What the US is becoming has nothing to do with Marxism. Ask yourself: who owns the means of production? In most cases, it isn't the workers.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    27. Re:The real issue by Shane_Optima · · Score: 1

      You're inserting your personal viewpoint and opinion and assuming it is fact.

      In the history of human discourse, has there ever been a retort weaker than "yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man." ? You haven't offered any argument at all that would show how your vision results in a smaller government.

      The fact the matter is the courts (and by extension, the police who must step in after noncompliance) have less to do when the government recognizes fewer contractual restrictions. YOU are the one advocating for the government step in more frequently. I am saying that people who own houses should, generally speaking, get to live in them and do what they want and the police are never dispatched to forcibly remove people from their houses because they installed ham radio antennae that were too big.

      You think the police should be engaged in these activities, because the homeowner in question "voluntarily" signed his rights away (nevermind that it was impossible to get a house near his job or good schools without living in an HOA area), but that doesn't have anything to do with smaller government. It is a nigh-unassailable fact that what I am advocating would mean that the police and the courts have more free time, which would (over the long term) mean fewer tax dollars would be needed for judges, police officers and support staff, which would result in a smaller government by any reasonable measure.

      Go back a few hundred years and many Native Americans didn't think people could even own land, it belonged to everyone.

      I've no idea what you're even trying to imply here. Take a deep breath man, and maybe go a month or two without looking at whatever bullshit blogs/podcasts/youtube channels you frequent.

      Your brand of populist fascio-libertarianism is so contaminated with paleoconservatism that you cannot recognize big government when it is staring you in the face.

    28. Re:The real issue by Shane_Optima · · Score: 1

      As a very quick adendum, I suppose you were trying to imply that the government was 'smaller' in the days when property rights didn't exist re: land? That is... well ridiculous for a cornucopia of reasons, but I think the main one is that the primary reason they didn't have a concept of land rights is that those tribes were migratory. There are too many human beings, our methods of food production have changed too much, and we've become much too specialized for us to return to a non-sedentary society. If you want to argue about some radical but realistic method of demolishing land property rights in modern society, I'm all ears.

      But I suspect you weren't proposing any such thing. I suspect you were trying to draw an absurd comparison between property rights and the courts (and by extension, police officers) recognizing unlimited 'voluntary' contractual restrictions. It's extremely easy to imagine a modern society where no one gets arrested for putting up ham radio antennae on their own property. It's extremely hard to imagine a society where no one can ever have someone arrested for trespassing.

    29. Re:The real issue by FlyHelicopters · · Score: 1

      I've no idea what you're even trying to imply here.

      Of course you don't, because you are closed minded and are unwilling to see any viewpoint other than the one programmed into you...

      Take a deep breath man

      Yea, yea, go fuck yourself...

    30. Re:The real issue by Shane_Optima · · Score: 1

      Programmed into me by whom? I've never met a single person who views contract law like I do.

      There might be a very superficial similarity with some of the things progressivist-"liberal" morons (of the type who advocate boycotting Walmart for not paying their workers enough) tend to say, but their claims and goals and overall views are entirely different.

      That wasn't a rhetorical question. I'd love to know who it is you think I'm mindlessly parroting. It would be great to see some proof that there are a few other sane people in the country (more specifically, sane small-government conservatives.)

      You, on the other hand, are far from being the first libertarian-type to equate an completely uninhibited view of contract law with the tiniest government and maximum amount of freedom. It doesn't mean you're a bad person; it's just that you probably haven't spent enough time outside of the echo chamber, getting drunk and staring into the abyss and thinking for yourself.

      I'd start with the deep breathing first, though. Just a suggestion.

    31. Re:The real issue by bobbied · · Score: 1

      Actually, I have pulled a lot of land records and I noticed something. All the builders generally have boiler plate CC&R's that they use. All they do is alter the land description details (where its located, lot details ect.) and file the same verbiage over and over. Also, if you went with one of the major builders in my area (the ones who build about 95% of everything single family going up today) you are SURE to get one of these boiler plate CC&R's with the HOA and the whole 9 yards. It's just how the vast majority of new construction is being done here.

      Your area may be different I suppose, but HERE in north Texas, nearly ALL new single family homes being built right now (and there are a LOT of them) will come with CC&R's. In fact, I'm loathed to find even a single example of a new single family home near the median price, within a reasonable commute that doesn't come with one of about 5 standard boiler plate CC&R's, all of which prohibit antenna structures.

      So, you see, I have done some research... It wasn't exhaustive, but it was the best our realtor and I could do at the time.

      Now, if I don't mind a longer commute or a much older home, you can find ones that are CC&R free at the same price. You can also go to some towns where you will pay a lot more for the same house on a larger plot of land and escape the CC&R problem. But the sad fact is, you will pay more, drive further, and/or live in an older home to escape the HOA nightmare.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    32. Re:The real issue by FlyHelicopters · · Score: 1

      Your area may be different I suppose, but HERE in north Texas, nearly ALL new single family homes being built right now (and there are a LOT of them) will come with CC&R's.

      I live in North Texas, look in Prosper and Celina, you can find 1/3 acre plots of land in normal neighborhoods that don't have such restrictions.

      You need a semi-custom home builder for what you want, you aren't going to get it from a DR Horton or KB Homes.

      And yes, you'll pay more, but on the plus side you'll get a better house, more land, and more freedom.

      But the sad fact is, you will pay more, drive further, and/or live in an older home to escape the HOA nightmare.

      Life is full of compromise, it sounds like you want to have your cake and eat it too...

      You want to put up a 63 foot tower, one of the reasons so many homes have HOAs now is exactly because of that... In the past, they didn't exist, people like you did exist, and now we have them...

    33. Re:The real issue by bobbied · · Score: 1

      For Pete's sake, Hams are literally 0.2% of the population.. We and our antennas are NOT the reason HOA's exist. That's just crazy... And I'm not asking for anything crazy or unsafe, just reasonable accommodation that is consistent with the purpose of ham radio in federal law.

      Apparently you agree that, the argument being made by *some* here has merit. After all, you have conceded the major points I've made. I have a reduced set of options if I want to put up antennas and participate in my hobby as well as providing the emergency communications public service that part 93 is designed to encourage. Your solution is not a solution for *some* hams, who are unable to drive further, spend more or live someplace other than where they are.

      If you want to drive further, pay more or live in an older home then you can find CC&R free places, which is the argument being made. In order to be a ham and put up antennas, I have to either drive further, pay more or live in an older home... My options are thus limited, which is the substance of the argument being made. For some, none of these are viable options, for them, HOA's offer no choice. It's not that being a ham somehow is a health and safety issue, my tower won't hurt you, it doesn't smell or pose a danger to you, and if you let me put one up, few will actually see the thing behind the trees in my front yard... But I cannot put one up, the HOA won't allow it.. I may have the option of moving, but some of my fellow hams do not and it's for them I argue.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    34. Re:The real issue by FlyHelicopters · · Score: 1

      For Pete's sake, Hams are literally 0.2% of the population.. We and our antennas are NOT the reason HOA's exist.

      Hams alone aren't... but the various things you want to do, there are a thousand more just like it, such as painting your front door orange... Leaving 10 cars parked out front, etc...

      This is my point... you want to do what YOU want and aren't considering your neighbors... This is why HOAs exist, too many people who don't care about anyone else but themselves...

      And I'm not asking for anything crazy

      That is your opinion, I disagree with you... You want to put up a 63 foot tower, that isn't normal for a residential neighborhood.

      Your solution is not a solution for *some* hams, who are unable to drive further, spend more or live someplace other than where they are.

      Then perhaps they shouldn't be Hams... their desired use isn't compatible with their neighbors...

      my tower won't hurt you

      It is ugly and may reduce property values by making it harder to resell my house next to you... So, you're wrong, it may well hurt me in the pocketbook...

  3. Elmers rejoice! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Elmers rejoice! Commence stroking your dipoles!

    1. Re:Elmers rejoice! by epyT-R · · Score: 1

      I believe monopole would be a more accurate metaphor.

  4. Re:Lobbyists must be stopped by msk · · Score: 1

    So the rule of an HOA matters more than emergency communications?

  5. Re:Cell Phone by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I saw some Democrats supporting this bill. Therefore, as a Republican, I'm going to have to oppose this bill on principle.

    No, I'm kidding, of course. I'm not a ham radio operator myself, but it seems like this is some common-sense legislation. Homeowner's associations can be remarkably priggish at times. I think some people just enjoy lording nitpicky rules over others, and that's the only mechanism they have, other than making family members miserable.

    --
    Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
  6. HOA lobby won this one. by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

    Don't worry, it's a shit bill, stuffed to the gills with weasel words. The HOA can still just say "no", and your only option at that point is to spread your wallet wide open for a lawyer. And you still could end up with "no."

    Totally shit bill. Watered down and mutated into a pro-HOA exercise in sycophancy.

    --
    I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    1. Re:HOA lobby won this one. by slashdot_commentator · · Score: 1

      Yeah, this whole bill thing confuses me. Perhaps I shifted here from another multiverse, but from where I came from, any licensed amateur radio operator can put whatever antenna on their property, and when the HOA or town attorney brought you to local court, you flash your amateur license, cite CFR 47 part 97 and The Telecommunications act of 1996, point out that your federally licensed antenna has jurisdiction over the local courts. And then the local court bends over, because they will always lose in federal court.

      This bill sounds like the HOA can still deny the antenna, and will limit antennas to registered ARES hams.

      --
      There is no America. There is no democracy. There is only IBM and AT&T and DuPont, Dow, General Electric, and Exxon
  7. Will be a huge victory for hams if signed into law by StandardCell · · Score: 4, Informative

    There is an entire body of stealth antennas that have been developed for legally and space-constrained homes, such as flagpole antennas, magnetic loops, folded attic dipoles, and even tuned metal gutters! Yet these are all compromise antennas due to their limited height from the ground , proximity to metal objects and wiring, and size (for the 40m band on HF, you need at least a 10m/33ft vertical plus one or more counterpoises of that length on the ground). Some HOAs are even more draconian and allow nothing outside of a strict approved list of items per the HOA contract. This means that even a 1/4 wavelength vertical wire antenna that is barely visible to the eye is disallowed. Ironically, it's these same antennas that contribute to RFI issues for neighbors, increase RF exposure and worsen problems that would not be present with a properly deployed non-compromise antenna. HOA agreements have a disproportionate impact on hams who tend to be older and often use ham radio to communicate with their friends. Some of these are ex-military and civilian volunteers who are part of the Military Auxiliary Radio System or Civil Air Patrol, or participate in volunteer civil safety services such as Amateur Radio Emergency Service, Radio Amateur Civil Emergency Service and Skywarn that use HF frequencies as well.

    The HOAs have been vociferously opposed to this act as an infringement of civil liberties and have written both to the FCC and to congress opposing this. Yet there are already FCC-mandated requirements for such things as satellite antennas on HOA-governed properties that supersede any restrictions that may be contained in HOA contracts on spectrum which is technically regulated by the FCC. The intent is not to replicated a nearly 200' tall antenna tower with stacked Yagis, but to provide reasonable accommodation. A 1/4 wavelength vertical wire antenna barely visible to the eye can literally communicate with the entire world, yet somehow the HOA board fanatics claim that even these should be restricted. Even one of the trapped multiband vertical antennas in a back yard can make a big difference in getting out and participating in radio, but they again want no part of it.

    There is bias against what we don't know or don't want to know. Heck, people think that there is an environmental impact to these antennas. I'm hopeful this will get passed and withstand scrutiny in the inevitable court battle that will ensue over it. But in a country turning its back on science for sports, maybe even the discussion with the non-ham folks might actually activate a few brain cells.

  8. Re:Cell Phone by radoni · · Score: 1

    Why not just use a cell phone?

    Cell phone communication (voice, text, videocall, location tracking) is fine and preferred for one-on-one communication. When there is a mass event (community bicycle race or marathon, and the oft-overused example of disaster scenario or improbable zombie apocalypse) then 2-way site radio can be as effective as the skill of the radio operators. It's not enough that licensed amateur radio operation has historically existed, there must be protections for operators to practice their skills and remain as effective as they would like to be. You might not like the 40ft antenna mast in your neighbor's back yard, but you'd be totally daft to scream "LA LA LA LA NOT LISTENING TO YOU LA LA LA NO YOU CAN'T BE A RADIO OPERATOR LA LA LA" covering your ears and rolling your eyes back at that same neighbor; as HOAs have been doing on your behalf for years.

    --
    SIGERR: laziness exceeds quota
  9. FCC by JBMcB · · Score: 1

    I was under the impression that those covenants were unenforceable, as the FCC has direct jurisdiction over all consumer communications equipment and ordinances.

    In other words, if the FCC says you can't restrict the placement of antennas, then nobody can place additional regulations on antennas - HOA or not. This was brought up with DirectTV style satellite dishes, and the FCC stomped all over HOAs, and even apartment buildings, attempting to regulate them.

    --
    My Other Computer Is A Data General Nova III.
    1. Re:FCC by msk · · Score: 1

      This was my understanding as well. It was at one time and may still be included in ham radio license exams.

    2. Re:FCC by Deadstick · · Score: 1

      The FCC was able to prohibit municipalities from banning antennas, but failed with HOAs because property covenants are contractual matters.

    3. Re:FCC by mysidia · · Score: 1

      I was under the impression that those covenants were unenforceable, as the FCC has direct jurisdiction

      Unfortunately, that applies only to Satellite dishes and over-the-air TV reception antennas, not Amateur radio.

      The rule (47 C.F.R. Section 1.4000) has been in effect since October 1996, and it prohibits restrictions that impair the installation, maintenance or use of antennas used to receive video programming. The rule applies to video antennas including direct-to-home satellite dishes that are less than one meter (39.37")

    4. Re:FCC by bobbied · · Score: 1

      I was under the impression that those covenants were unenforceable, as the FCC has direct jurisdiction over all consumer communications equipment and ordinances.

      The FCC has only pre-empted antenna structures for Over the Air TV and Data services OTARD for private land use contracts (CC&Rs) (i.e. HOAs) since 1970 or so. They have specifically and steadfastly refused to pre-empt CC&Rs for Hams. However, the FCC HAS pre-empted local zoning rules and laws for hams as well as OTARD antennas.

      So city council cannot keep you from building that antenna, but the HOA can, and many do (including mine which I know from personal experience.)

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
  10. Re:HAM Operators Used to Be the Real Geeks... by LoudPipesSaveLives · · Score: 1

    Ok, that should have been "the biggest geeks around were the HAM operators"

  11. Re:Cell Phone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I think some people just enjoy lording nitpicky rules over others, and that's the only mechanism they have, other than making family members miserable.

    Or, people would like to be able to own homes in areas unblighted by rooftop antenna towers.

    I guess, if you're a fairy princess....

  12. Re:Cell Phone by radoni · · Score: 2

    Or, people would like to be able to own homes in areas unblighted by rooftop antenna towers.

    Chimneys, satellite TV or ISP dishes, HDTV antennas, wind vanes, flag poles, roof-mounted security lights, rain gutter systems, skylights, solar panels.

    You forgot these things we should also get rid of, just to be fair.

    --
    SIGERR: laziness exceeds quota
  13. It's too easy to be a NIMBY by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This legislation is a needed benefit for the ham community, but the NIMBY problem is far bigger than this. I have seen cases where a small group of Concerned Citizens (aka tinfoil yammerheads) can prevent needed cell towers from being installed in their town because 'radiation'.

      What I would like to see is legislation that would strip NIMBYs of court access to prevent the construction of any public infrastructure project that conforms to published specifications for safety, appearance, and environmental impact for the project type, as adjudicated by the relevant regulatory agency. To obstruct a project, an opponent would be burdened with proving that the project did not conform to its type specification.

    1. Re:It's too easy to be a NIMBY by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 1

      Be careful what you wish for.

    2. Re:It's too easy to be a NIMBY by DewDude · · Score: 1

      The tinfoil types have had less and less power with the number of documented cases of them complaining about a tower that's not even turned on. When local municipalities find out 99% of the complaints from these people in other areas are about towers that aren't even turned on; credibility goes out the window.

    3. Re:It's too easy to be a NIMBY by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

      I have a ham radio buddy who used the same strategy. Whenever he moved to a new town, he would set up his big antenna first and left the rest of his rig crated. He would wait about six weeks for all the neighbors to complain about impotence and dead pets. Then he would invite everyone over and show them the setup. Never a peep after that.

    4. Re:It's too easy to be a NIMBY by DewDude · · Score: 1

      Well...the biggest problem is that no one understands the science behind this...and they don't want to. Instead...they resort to believing Facebook types and people who have alternative motives behind it.

      Take for example one "RF Crusader". This woman films videos of her driving around in her car with some sort of detector constantly going off....talking about the doom and gloom. She stops on corners, points at things she things are towers...then rants at how "everyone at this intersection is getting cancer".

      For starters...no? RF is not ionizing radiation and the likelihood of cancer exposure is low. The device she's using...I don't think it even detects what she thinks it detects. But she goes on and on in the video about how you can "protect yourself" and "buy this device" from her. Riiiiiiiight. And I'll believe anything she says when me shit turns purple and smells like rainbow sherbert.

      "But hey...she's a "legitimate" businessperson; she wouldn't lie would she?" It's like the people that hate wifi becuase it "makes them sick", yet use a 30 year old microwave all the time. They don't realize they're exposing themselves to so much more microwave RF energy warming up a hot pocket than they would next to a wi-fi router for a year. "But no...it's different radiation." Give me a break.

      The sad part is...the majority of people are in fact this effing stupid when it comes to RF...and they get to "dictate policy" somehow. And don't even get me started about the "NIMBY" people who do nothing but complain about the cell phone not working. Want the phone to work, doesn't want towers within 5 miles of them, doesn't care to listen about how radio systems work, doesn't care how things work period, expects them to work they demand.

      Crazy new lady moved in down the street; apparently decided she would go hiking "wherever she damn well pleased". Saw the antenna in my back yard; proceeded to start outing me to the community as "a source of cancer" and "the reason everyone is sick". Called the cops on me several times when I removed her signs from my driveway (my house sits way back in the woods); attempted to file charges that "I was making her and everyone else sick."

      The neighbors...they had no clue WTF she was talking about. When she finally admitted "he's got a big antenna in his back yard that's giving everyone cancer"; everyone asked how she could know that.

      "I saw it! I was out for a walk and I saw it! It's 500ft tall. I got a headache just walking back there!"

      She wound up arrested with eight different people filed tresspassing charges against her. No one was sure what route she took to be able to see my back yard; so they all filed for them.

      Lady wound up in a psych ward.

    5. Re:It's too easy to be a NIMBY by dywolf · · Score: 1

      how very libertarian of you to demand peoples' access to the courts be stripped.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    6. Re:It's too easy to be a NIMBY by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

      "Lady wound up in a psych ward."

      In too many cases, she winds up in a legislature, or Congress, instead. It's why we can't have nice things.

    7. Re:It's too easy to be a NIMBY by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

      how very libertarian of you to demand peoples' access to the courts be stripped.

      If you're going to have any adjudicating body at all, we should have the right to demand that it observe scientific facts when it renders judgements.

      Or we could do it the strict Randian way: protesters would take up arms against construction crews, who would then get to shoot back.

  14. Re:Cell Phone by laurencetux · · Score: 2

    because Hams make a sport out of creating links where "mere mortals" would curl up in a screaming ball.

    with a good rig and even half decent materials you could get a relay setup to reach a couple hundred miles station to station (assumes presence of a suitable hill to put your relay).

    All Else Failing the ARC has the local Hams "stand down" when they get there ( those Hams that are not staff of ARC)

  15. Re:Cell Phone by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

    Or, people would like to be able to own homes in areas unblighted by rooftop antenna towers.

    You must have missed the early satellite TV/Internet day where some neighbor had a satellite dish that took up most of the backyard.

  16. Re:Cell Phone by flghtmstr1 · · Score: 1

    How does that effect you? It's your neighbor's property; they should be able to erect a 30ft statue of Buddha if they want to. We (used to) have many rights in the USA, but the right not to be offended isn't one of them.

  17. Re:Cell Phone by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "Or, people would like to be able to own homes in areas unblighted by rooftop antenna towers."

    Or on the third hand, they might want to move into a neighborhood and then inveigh against existing ham antennas. This happens all the time.

  18. Re:really? by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 5, Informative

    The ham service is already regulated in the way I describe, in this case by the FCC and in conformance to international treaties. What you describe would be strictly illegal under the existing rules.

    It's you NIMBYs who see the world as an unending series of Pandora's boxes.

  19. Re:Cell Phone by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

    It's your neighbor's property; they should be able to erect a 30ft statue of Buddha if they want to.

    If your 30-foot statue of Buddha overshadows my backyard victory garden, it wouldn't take much to convince a court that you're interfering with the enjoyment of my backyard. That was a common complaint about satellite dishes back then.

    We (used to) have many rights in the USA, but the right not to be offended isn't one of them.

    You must not be from California. My roommates and I rented a duplex apartment with a front yard. One day a little old lady told us that the dead petunias in our front yard caused the value of her house down the street to drop by $25K. I asked her if she was selling her house. She said no. I told her she doesn't know the true value of her house until she sells it. She walked away in a huff.

  20. Re:Cell Phone by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 1

    Or, people would like to be able to own homes in areas unblighted by rooftop antenna towers.

    Do you seriously think this will lead to your neighbors putting up something like this rather than this?

    What about a modest radio antenna makes it a "blight" in your neighborhood? Besides which, as soon as there's some sort of disaster or emergency, your neighbor in that "blighted" house is going to become your new best buddy. That's the entire point of this: having some ham operators in your area is a good thing for safety reasons.

    --
    Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
  21. Re:Cell Phone by ATMAvatar · · Score: 1

    How does that effect you?

    Most directly - what your neighbor does to their property influences the value of yours.

    That certainly doesn't excuse how far some HOA's go, but do not pretend that what happens on your property does not affect others.

    --
    "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
  22. Re:HAM Operators Used to Be the Real Geeks... by Deadstick · · Score: 1

    Nobody really knows the origin, but the consensus seems to be that it's a contraction of "amateur". Hams do not ordinarily write it in all caps.

  23. Re:really? by Deadstick · · Score: 1

    Do you really think you could defend against hostile disruption by banning transmitting towers you can see from a block away? If a terrorist wanted to shut down your cell reception, you would never see it coming.

  24. Re:Good lord, this is still a thing? by TigerPlish · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Pot-bellied retirees reliving their childhood pretending to matter in the modern world...

    Ham radio spans the globe, not just the US.

    And when the shit seriously hits the fan, the grid goes down in some 3rd-world country, it's the ham radio guys that move the news in and out. They can even tcp over it.

    When the Zombie Apocalypse comes - in whatever form it may be - it'll be *our* hams moving info.

    --
    The "Civilized World" jumped the shark ca. 1973.
  25. Pre ASCII by AndyKron · · Score: 1

    dit dit dit da da da dit dit dit - Pre ASCII

  26. Re:Cell Phone by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1, Funny

    Chimneys, satellite TV or ISP dishes, HDTV antennas, wind vanes, flag poles, roof-mounted security lights, rain gutter systems, skylights, solar panels.

    You forgot these things we should also get rid of, just to be fair.

    But not the lawn jockeys. I love the lawn jockeys and garden gnomes. They can stay. ]

    I especially hate the roof-mounted security lights. I lived in a neighborhood with zero crime. I mean, the place was stupidly safe, because a Chicago alderman and the chancellor of the University of Illinois lived on the block and we were two blocks from the police academy, so there were constant police patrols, and even an unmarked at the end of the alley behind the chancellor's house. But one of my neighbors still had to put up one of the motion-controlled security lights because he was a jagoff. I verified he was a jagoff because he had a sign on his door that said, "This house protected by Smith & Wesson", even though nothing and nobody was ever going to threaten the sanctity of his house. I mean, I'm all for responsible gun ownership, and I'm a gun owner myself, but to put a sign up to announce it just means you're a raging asshole, which is his right as an American (Trump 2016). Anyway, I'd be walking the dog at night and coming home down the alley and his fucking klieg light would go on, blinding me and scaring the ever-loving shit out of my dog. I lived in the neighborhood for 25 years before this guy and his klieg light and Smith & Wesson sign moved in. All of a sudden he's got to make the place unpleasant. Fuck him. I hope on Halloween he goes out in black face and brings a gun and one of the cops in the neighborhood shoots him, thinking he's guilty of actually being black.

    --
    You are welcome on my lawn.
  27. Re:Cell Phone by VanGarrett · · Score: 3, Insightful

    This thinking really bothers me, and while I know the principle you cite is generally true, I can't help but think that by far, I'd prefer to live next to a slob than someone who's going to tell me what I can and can't do on my own property. I can't speak for anyone else on this, but I, for one, would abandon any bargain on the sale of a house, upon being told that there's an HOA involved. That is a total deal breaker. If I'm going to buy a house, I'm buying a place to live. If it's an investment that I want, I'll try venture capital, trade goods or the stock market. Or comic books, as I'm already doing that.

  28. Re:Cell Phone by mysidia · · Score: 1

    Most directly - what your neighbor does to their property influences the value of yours.

    That's true, but your neighbor doesn't have any right to have the value of their property improved by what you do to your property, unless they are agreeing to share the sales proceeds with you, when they sell their property, that is.....

  29. Re:Cell Phone by mysidia · · Score: 2

    A "reasonable" HOA can help protect your investment, I guess, by preventing other people from massively changing the character of the area.

    There really are some nasty extreme things a neighbor could do which would make things less appealing for you, and make your property hard to sell if they wanted to.

    The covenants were willing agreed when they bought in though. So no, they can't put in that 200 foot tower, rent out their front yard to 5 families as a trailer park, never cut their grass, leave a bunch of broken-down cars as permanent yard ornaments, and wake up the neighborhood every morning with loud noises from their roosters, etc, etc.

    I, for one, would abandon any bargain on the sale of a house, upon being told that there's an HOA involved. That is a total deal breaker. If I'm going to buy a house, I'm buying a place to live.

    The trouble, is unless you go to great lengths in your due diligence, you are unlikely to discover the HOA and the HOA rules until the final stages of the transaction, when you have to sign on the dotted line, and the HOA rules are in the fine print on page 562, and you won't understand that they exist or what they mean without a consult with a real-estate attorney that has your interests at heart, and not making a quick sale.

  30. Re:The Amended Bill is Worthless by StatureOfLiberty · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Meaningless fodder bill in an election year.

    Not at all.

    ... prohibits the application to amateur stations of any private land use restriction, including a restrictive covenant, that—

    • on its face or as applied, precludes communications in an amateur radio service;
    • fails to permit a licensee in an amateur radio service to install and maintain an effective out-door antenna on property under the exclusive use or control of the licensee; or
    • does not constitute the minimum practicable restriction on such communications to accomplish the lawful purposes of a community association seeking to enforce such restriction.

    This is so much better than where things stand now. For example, I have a friend who put up a wire antenna in his back yard in an HOA and was forced to take it down even though you could not even see it without trespassing on his property. How is a wire that no one can see without trespassing affecting anyone's home value? But, as things are, it can be banned. Banning a wire that no one can see certainly would not "constitute the minimum practicable restriction on such communications to accomplish the lawful purposes of a community association seeking to enforce such restriction."

    Will everything immediately go smoothly and every ham operator get exactly what they want? No, of course not. Will people end up going to court to sort this out? I'm sure that will happen. But over time, an understanding of what all of this means will arise just like it has for satellite dishes and over the air antennas.

    This bill certainly isn't perfect. But, it is infinitely better than where things stand right now.

  31. Re:Cell Phone by whodunit · · Score: 1

    I would never suggest you invest in a $200 tax stamp and a box of .22 primer-only ammo.

  32. Re:really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Not to mention that hams practice hunting down transmitters for fun. A high-power jammer would would be quickly and easily tracked down and reported to the FCC.

  33. Re:Will be a huge victory for hams if signed into by mysidia · · Score: 2

    In fact, HOAs can still enact reasonable restrictions on satellite and TV antennas.

    Only the rules that do not impair installation, maintenance, use, or reception of a high-quality signal are allowed.

    Around here, mounting the antenna so close to the ground for Satellite, over the air TV reception, or Fixed wireless reception for internet (Which the rule also applies to), would prevent getting a quality signal.

  34. Re:HAM Operators Used to Be the Real Geeks... by mysidia · · Score: 1

    You don't need to know Morse code anymore in the US to get any Ham license. So if that's all that was holding you back, then it shouldn't be a barrier anymore, because hardly anyone uses CW for purposes other than repeater identification.

    On a good day we could shoot skip as far as some HAM operators, but didn't have as many rules. 10-7.

    CB Operators have many more stringent restrictions than Ham operators do; It's not that they have fewer rules, but enforcement is a problem.... since there's no individual license, callsign, and required ID for CB operators. CB stations cannot have amplifiers. Limited to 5 watts. No repeaters, auxillary/linked stations, no automated comms. No communicating or attempting to contact a station more than 50 miles away. Must not hold a conversation longer than 5 minutes, without both stations ceasing transmission for 1 full minute.

    Plus all the same restrictions on content as Hams: including No profanity/obscenity, No music, No codes/ciphers , No one-way broadcasts, No retransmitting messages from another source.

  35. Re:HAM Operators Used to Be the Real Geeks... by mysidia · · Score: 1

    The word 'Ham' is known to come from a slang term used in the early days of radio and telegraphy.
    See: http://www.arrl.org/ham-radio-...

    The first wireless operators were landline telegraphers who left their offices to go to sea or to man the coastal stations. They brought with them their language and much of the tradition of their older profession. In those early days, every station occupied the whole spectrum with its broad spark signal. Government stations, ships, coastal stations and the increasingly numerous amateur operators all competed for time and signal supremacy in each other's receivers.
     
      Many of the amateur stations were very powerful. Two amateurs, working each other across town, could effectively jam all the other operations in the area. Frustrated commercial operators would refer to the ham radio interference by calling them "hams." Amateurs, possibly unfamiliar with the real meaning of the term, picked it up and applied it to themselves. As the years advanced, the original meaning has completely disappeared.

  36. Re:Cell Phone by mikeiver1 · · Score: 1

    Generally not a few hours but... The battery banks that most of the cell sites have are rather large affairs to be honest. At least 1000AH at 48V on the ones I have worked on. Not that it matters at all for the general public since they are put into emergency mode and only available to emergency responders. Also, they are linked via Fibre so that may be lost if above ground and a fair bit of it is. Ham Radio is about the best option for the general public that there is in such cases. In general metropolitan areas your average car transceiver has 50W output, into a good antenna this can translate into the equivalent of at least a couple hundred Watts of power. IE, There is a good chance that you should be able to talk to your loved ones. Allot of the repeaters are likely to have generators with good fuel reserves and you should be able to get a message through that way as well.

  37. Re:really? by mysidia · · Score: 2

    An inexpensive transmitter can blockout a 10 mile radius.

    These frequencies being used by cell phones have ultra-short wavelength, close
    to the microwave ranges, and the HOAs would never notice such a small antenna which doesn't need to be more than a few feet off the ground to effectively jam cell phones for many miles.

    On the other hand, if someone's dumb enough to put an intentional jammer of any kind on a tower, they would easily be tracked down, and they would then lose the tower, their operator license, all their equipment, and go to jail.

    A bonafide ham will never be intentnionally jamming anything, and the parity law does not cover CB operators or other non-licensed.

  38. Re: Shows just how much Republicans hate us... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    HAM radio is something Democrats hate.

    I live in Everette, WA just north of Seattle. I had never been stopped by the police until I got my general license. After that, I got stopped three times by the Seattle police. On the third time, they took my daughter, and I have not seen her since.

  39. Re:Lobbyists must be stopped by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I don't live in a HOA cause there are too many rules. If you buy a house in a HOA and agree to the rules you shouldn't go running to the government to change the agreement you made.

  40. Re: So much for States rights by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    The feds already had jurisdiction of radio across state lines. FCC act 1934. Get over it.

  41. Re:Cell Phone by Humbubba · · Score: 2

    Ham Radio is true geek. Even the FCC is scared of them. Nuff said.

  42. Re:Cell Phone by rally2xs · · Score: 1

    His sign just might cause a potential burglar or home invader to instead choose your unsigned house to invade and do his rape/kill thing, which is what he's hoping to avoid for himself.

    Otherwise, maybe he just wants the light to be able to walk out in the driveway at night and have a light come on so he doesn't trip over the bicycle that his kid just left laying in the driveway. My own security light is pole-mounted and not motion-sensitive, so its nice to go out and be able to walk around without having to take a flashlight to not fall over something unexpected.

  43. Re:Lobbyists must be stopped by rally2xs · · Score: 5, Interesting

    You don't understand. Hams do this for enjoyment. If these restrictions ruin enjoyment, then they won't do ham radio at all. So, when the community does need emergency communications, there will be no one with a radio that is able to help. People aren't going to become hams just to spend money to be of help in an emergency, they spend the money to have an enjoyable hobby that has as a byproduct the ability to help the community when emergency communications is needed.

  44. Re:Will be a huge victory for hams if signed into by clm1970 · · Score: 1

    There are already rules requiring "reasonable accommodation" for ham radio operators. This bill does absolutely nothing to expand them or to provide enforcement. This bill in fact strengthens the HOA's ability to restrict ham radio antennas based on aesthetic standards.

    This is yet another bill that does the exact opposite of the title. You've been trolled by Congress once again. You have lost. Have a nice day.

    Those reasonable accommodations are under PRB-1 which does not extend to those properties under and CC&R's or deed restricted properties. This bill is a small step in the direction of getting those reasonable accomodations.

  45. Re:Cell Phone by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

    Otherwise, maybe he just wants the light to be able to walk out in the driveway at night and have a light come on so he doesn't trip over the bicycle that his kid just left laying in the driveway.

    Then the motion sensor should trip in his driveway, and not in the adjacent alley, which he does not own. At best, he's an incompetent asshole; incompetent because he can't aim a motion sensor and an asshole because of his impact on others, about which he surely does not give a shit.

    I'd go over there with a can of fake snow and spray it on his floods.

    --
    "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  46. Re:Cell Phone by PopeRatzo · · Score: 2

    His sign just might cause a potential burglar or home invader to instead choose your unsigned house to invade and do his rape/kill thing, which is what he's hoping to avoid for himself.

    You're not paying attention. There hasn't been a crime in that neighborhood since the Roaring '20s. There are more police than squirrels in that neighborhood.

    --
    You are welcome on my lawn.
  47. Re:HAM Operators Used to Be the Real Geeks... by Deadstick · · Score: 1

    What a waist of a high school education.

  48. Re:The Amended Bill is Worthless by Phasedshift · · Score: 1

    Serious question:

    How did the HOA know about the antenna (in order to force it being taken down) if no one could see it?

  49. Re:Will be a huge victory for hams if signed into by StayFrosty · · Score: 2

    A trucker with a CB can send critical information 40 or 50 miles on the 11m band on a good day. Legally they are limited to 5w output. Even with a yagi, this is going to be tough.

    HAMs (Skilled QRPers) on the other hand regularly communicate to other continents with 5w of power. Your typical 100-150W HF rig is going to be able to communicate anywhere in the world--or worst case, anywhere in the continental US. Some HAMs are also trained in emergency communications and/or formal traffic handling (to verify the accuracy of messages.) HAMs can use modes like SSTV (Slow Scan TV) to send an image of a piece of damaged infrastructure or a damaged building so engineers or rescuers can come in properly prepared. APRS mode is designed to update a real-time map of mobile and stationary transmitters using GPS. Information like this can also be critical in a disaster information. Rescuers won't have to guess where to look to find an injured person, etc... HAM radio is much more than Morse Code (CW) and people talking to each other like on CBs.

    --
    "Frequently wrong, never in doubt."
  50. Re:really? by thegarbz · · Score: 1

    This opens up pandoras box

    Then the world must have ended by now given we've had hams for the best part of since the technology was first created.

  51. What about the 10th Amendment by mi · · Score: 1

    This will allow for the reasonable accommodation of amateur radio antennas in many places where they are currently prohibited by homeowner associations or private land use restrictions

    Much as I hate such limits on use of private property ("painting permit" anyone?), is not such Federal overwrite of local laws and rules against the spirit and even the letter of the 10th Amendment?

    The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

    It would seem, for a State or a lesser entity to lose a right — such as a right to ban antennas — a mere act of Congress is insufficient and a new Amendment is necessary.

    --
    In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    1. Re:What about the 10th Amendment by DewDude · · Score: 1

      There's this thing in FCC regulations called "PRB-1", it is a reasonable accomdiation law that prevents local governments and municipalities from restricting ham antennas. In many cases where a local law has outright said "no"; this regulation has been cited to overturn the local law. It's happened in many places, though it's usually not easy. Sometimes you walk in to a planning office and show this to them; they know they have no alternative but to issue a permit. This depends if your state has any laws on the books. Some have laws that mimic PRB-1...leaving local municipalities even less powerful to restrict anything. Some states have laws that are stricter than PRB-1, in which case, PRB-1 holds more power.

      The problem is with private land use; is that PRB-1 doesn't apply. Most HOAs ouright refuse to even listen...most of them go as far as to illegally try to ban TV antennas and satellite dishes. This law is going to make PRB-1 apply to private-land use; although the HOA's lobbied against it...with more money...and the current law that's being passed is just a shell. HOA's will *still* have to ability to outright say no; the difference is, they have to at least listen to your arguement. They don't have to consider it, they don't have to allow it; they just have to consider it vs outright bans.

      People in HOA controlled properties.....which in some areas are unavoidable (99% of new building here is being done with private-land restrictions and HOAs) are still screwed.

    2. Re:What about the 10th Amendment by mi · · Score: 1

      There's this thing in FCC regulations called "PRB-1", it is a reasonable accomdiation law that prevents local governments and municipalities from restricting ham antennas.

      An FCC regulation is even worse (weaker) than an actual Congress-passed and President-signed law...

      But, yes, I'm aware of the federal laws on the matter — my point was, such laws (and "regulations") need to be Amendments to be able to trump local laws, should they not be?

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
  52. States can regulate radio transmitters... by Ellis+D.+Tripp · · Score: 1

    when they invent a way to make radio waves stop at state borders. Until then, federal (and international) regulations are the only ones that make sense.

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  53. Jamming is already illegal under federal laws.... by Ellis+D.+Tripp · · Score: 1

    and the biggest "attack vector" against cell phones would be the "stingray" being deployed by your local police department.

    But sure, we have to crack down on ham radio so you can feel safe. Because somebody who wants to secretly jam communications is going to put up a big, obvious antenna installation in order to do so.

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    Remember "News for Nerds, Stuff that Matters"? Help make it a reality again! http://soylentnews.org
  54. Sign or don't buy by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

    Exactly right. HOA's can impose all kinds of restrictions on what you do with your own property.

    From my POV, the chain of logic that says "we can prevent you from buying if you don't sign our agreement" is invalid on first principles.

    And I would not sign anything of the sort. But I have the ability to choose where I live. Not everyone does (jobs, family, illness, infirmity); and that makes this a problem. So a bill like this (not this version of the bill, certainly, because it is toothless) is needed to push back on the important things, of which this is one, until or unless the entire idea of "we can prevent you from buying if you don't sign our agreement" is somehow put down like the anti-liberty, oppressive POS it is.

    --
    I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    1. Re:Sign or don't buy by Shirley+Marquez · · Score: 2

      If you live in an area where all or nearly all the property has restrictive covenants, you don't have a lot of choices. You can live in such a place or you can move to another city. Here in New England it's relatively easy to escape them because a lot of the housing stock predates the widespread use of covenants, but the situation in other parts of the country is far more challenging.

  55. Re:Lobbyists must be stopped by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

    but emergency communications are normally via 2 meters

    What's "normal" in an emergency?

    Also, no.

    --
    I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
  56. Re: Chimneys by hackwrench · · Score: 1

    No, the chimneys the HOAs put in despite no one having an actual fireplace and you are legally obligated to not remove despite them making a situation where the section leaks because it adds just that bit of charm.

  57. Likely to be fundamental overload, actually.... by Ellis+D.+Tripp · · Score: 1

    For better or worse, most ham operators these days use commercially made equipment, which is tested for spectral purity, so any significant output on broadcast or cellular bands is highly unlikely.

    What often causes amateur band RFI/TVI nowadays is lack of filtering/shielding in cheap consumer electronics, to allow them to reject signals outside of their operating bands. Such "frills" are among the first design features eliminated in order to lower the selling price at WalMart.

    If the ham operator is putting out a clean signal, within legal power limits, then this type of interference is strictly the problem of the person being interfered with. Most hams are more than willing to lend a hand resolving the problem just to be a good neighbor, but they have NO legal responsibility to go off the air or repair design deficiencies in your TV, router, or whatever. And the FCC will simply point out the Part 15 regs that lay this all out. Your consumer electronics cannot interfere with any licensed service (like ham radio), and must accept any interference FROM a licensed service.

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  58. Rights by fyngyrz · · Score: 2

    I would add that rights are those things that cannot be taken away by a simple majority vote. If it can be taken away, it wasn't a right in the first place.

    Unfortunately, that is a wholly optional construct, valid only in the context where those who hold power agree it is true.

    Rights are things that are enforced by those with the power to enforce them. The instant that the power to enforce them is lacking or withheld, they are not rights - they are extra-societal acts, quite often crimes. You can elect to try to exercise what you perceive as a right, but if you are constrained, coerced, or killed when those in power become aware of it, you had nothing worth having.

    The idea that government should respect rights as you describe them, as inherent to the human condition, is written into the US constitution. That defined the power that was, top-down, to codify and respect various important rights. The US congress and the supreme court have been working in concert, quite successfully, to water down or explicitly remove those inferences and stipulations.

    The public has, and continues to, put up with it. That, in a nutshell, is how the constitutional intent for rights to be treated as inherent in the US became "just a piece of paper." There is no longer any power behind the idea; it is dead. The only right you have is the right to do what you're told. Because that, the government is consistently enforcing.

    --
    I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    1. Re:Rights by bmo · · Score: 1

      I can only agree with your post.

      This makes me despondent.

      --
      BMO

  59. THAT would be a case for notifying the FCC... by Ellis+D.+Tripp · · Score: 1

    Playing music over the CB bands is a clear violation of the applicable rules, and voices coming through your toaster is a pretty clear indication that the CB is putting out considerably more than the allowable RF power level. of 4 watts AM or 12 watts for SSB.

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  60. Who's a good tyrant? You are! Yes you are! by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

    If codes aren't being enforced, you let your city representatives know it's important to you, and your family and friends will vote them out next election if they don't make it a priority.

    Only works if your family and friends constitute a majority. And since that is almost never the case, what you're saying here is basically nonsensical.

    HOAs are just a bunch of busy-bodies deciding what color you can paint your bike shed, and taking your money so they can play like they're doing something important.

    "Government is (among other things) a bunch of busy-bodies deciding what color you can paint your bike shed, and taking your money or throwing you in jail so they can play like they're doing something important."

    FTFY

    --
    I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    1. Re:Who's a good tyrant? You are! Yes you are! by evilviper · · Score: 1

      Only works if your family and friends constitute a majority.

      Nonsense. That would mean the candidate(s) is/are otherwise getting 100% of the vote. How often does that happen?

      "Government is (among other things) a bunch of busy-bodies deciding what color you can paint your bike shed,

      Except for just a few historic districts, the government practically never sets restrictions on what color you can paint your property, while it's very common with HOAs. Governments just set laws you can follow, while HOAs lord their power over everybody, and dictate on a case-by-case basis who is allowed to do what, based entirely on personal feelings rather than merit or objective evaluation.

      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    2. Re:Who's a good tyrant? You are! Yes you are! by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

      Only works if your family and friends constitute a majority.

      Nonsense. That would mean the candidate(s) is/are otherwise getting 100% of the vote. How often does that happen?

      What? How do you figure? A majority is anything over 50%. Including 51%. If you don't have a majority (which is not a requirement for 100%) with you, you can't set the path of a new ordinance by voting; and you generally can't set it at all by trying to reason with the town/city/whatever council, unless you create a petition with a significant impact -- all of which will always represent the will of the group as to what you are allowed to do as an individual to your own self, property, and possessions without physically damaging or stealing the person or property of others, so it's absurd from the very start. Shouldn't even come up. By the time you're fighting a liberty-intrusive ordinance, most times, you're defeated before you even write or speak a word.

      Except for just a few historic districts, the government practically never sets restrictions on what color you can paint your property, while it's very common with HOAs

      You're being far too specific. Government sets all kinds of house things in their mommy guise: how high off the floor electrical sockets have to be; how many windows you must have; how many cats you can keep in your home; where (if) (and which) you can park your vehicles on your own property; etc., etc.; etc. Including how tall, or whether, you can have an amateur radio tower. The government-imposed limit here, for instance, is 45 feet. Which, again, is absurd.

      You need to pay more attention and/or learn how things actually work.

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    3. Re:Who's a good tyrant? You are! Yes you are! by evilviper · · Score: 1

      If you don't have a majority (which is not a requirement for 100%) with you, you can't set the path of a new ordinance by voting; and you generally can't set it at all by trying to reason with the town/city/whatever council

      You don't seem to know much of anything about civics, so I'll take one quick attempt at explaining...

      If a politician won his last election with an 80% majority, then you only need to control 30.1% of those who voted for him to cause him to lose next time. Your 30.1% plus the presumed existing 20% goes to his opponent, who then gets a majority over him.

      So, the ONLY way you would ever need to control a 51% of voters is if the politician had 100% approval. In reality, the distribution is almost always much more evenly split, so the 5-10% of voters in a local election that you might realistically have sway over, will usually be a deciding factor. Even if it might not be, it's big enough to scare the hell out of any politician.

      You're being far too specific.

      No, I'm giving a factual example, which you obviously have no rebuttal to.

      Government sets all kinds of house things in their mommy guise: how high off the floor electrical sockets have to be; how many windows you must have; how many cats you can keep in your home;

      All of which are very useful and perfectly reasonable restrictions. Poorly built, very dangerous homes, filled with animals, are quite a health hazard that can easily harm your neighbors.

      You need to pay more attention and/or learn how things actually work.

      An ironic accusation, since you've proven yourself quite clueless.

      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
  61. Re:Will be a huge victory for hams if signed into by davemchine · · Score: 1

    My great-grandfather operated a ham radio illegally. He was afraid of getting caught so he designed his antenna to be raised and lowered as needed. I'm not knowledgeable about the larger antennas but would this be a possible solution? I've had my ham license for over 20 years but I've only operated on 2m and even that has been a long time ago.

  62. Excellent news... by Sir+Lurkalot · · Score: 2

    I sent my reps the email.

    I am glad that it may have helped.

    (Amature Radio Service Operator).

  63. Re:Cell Phone by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

    There are more police than squirrels in that neighborhood.

    That's just nuts.

    --
    Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
  64. As a former Lothians RAYNET member by Pax681 · · Score: 1

    This is very good news for the RAYNET guys in the USA.
    73's

  65. Re:Cell Phone by ColdWetDog · · Score: 2

    Come on guy, the American way to solve that problem is to ask the woman for $10,000, get some Mexican to water your petunias for $500. She sells the house, gets out of your hair and everybody wins.

    That's what Trump would do.

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    Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
  66. Re: Cell Phone by pixelpusher220 · · Score: 2

    You should have demanded $20 from her. Since your lowering her home value saved her money in taxes!

    --
    People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people :-D
  67. Re:HAM Operators Used to Be the Real Geeks... by ColdWetDog · · Score: 2

    You're a silent key (SK, aka dead person)? Radio from the grave? Did they bury you with your rig?

    And how do you get on the Internet?

    --
    Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
  68. Congress at work for you and yours by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

    Congress often votes in a bi-partisan and broadly supportive manner when the actual effect of a bill is zero. That's the case here. The watered-down version of the bill they passed changes nothing significant to the HOAs, and offers nothing significant to those in the amateur radio service. HOAs can still arbitrarily say no, and when they do, you can get a lawyer, take them to court, and they can still say no, leaving you poorer and still without the antenna system you wanted. Hence... the "support."

    --
    I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
  69. SK is a CW prosign... by Ellis+D.+Tripp · · Score: 1

    Although it would generally be overscored when written, and sent as one long character (...-.-) Use as a reference to a deceased operator is secondary.

      Per Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosigns_for_Morse_code

    The end of contact turn-over prosign is usually sent in lieu of the prosign K or the prosign at the very end of the last transmission from the transmitting station, to indicate the termination or end of a particular contact (conversation) between two stations, thus turning the communications channel over to other users. The prosign may be interpreted in English as, this station will be "silencing key". Often when terminating a contact with the prosign, a transmitting station may continue listening on the communications channel for calls from other stations.

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  70. Re:The Amended Bill is Worthless by StatureOfLiberty · · Score: 1

    How did the HOA know about the antenna (in order to force it being taken down) if no one could see it?

    Good question. HOAs are unfortunately too often enablers for busybodies. My friend has a real jerk of a neighbor who has entirely too much time on his hands and goes around looking for HOA rule violations basically as a hobby. And frankly, I'm not sure how the neighbor saw the antenna. Because it really was not visible unless you were in my friend's back yard. But nobody asks about that. They just point to the rules and say take it down.

    In this case, it is a real shame. My friend is a Morse code buff and to see and hear him operate is truly amazing. It is like music. He handles a set of CW paddles like Eric Clapton handles a guitar. It looks completely effortless.

    This person also was the emergency coordinator in our area for the Amateur Radio Emergency Service group at one time. He is one of the guys that you would truly want to have access to a working station if something major bad happened.

    I'm so glad I'm not in an HOA myself. But that is getting harder and harder to pull off. And that is why we need things like this bill.

  71. Re:Cell Phone by kilodelta · · Score: 1

    Try it in an emergency. I bet you'll be wishing you had a dual band hand held in your pack.

  72. Re:Cell Phone by VisceralLogic · · Score: 1

    The trouble, is unless you go to great lengths in your due diligence, you are unlikely to discover the HOA and the HOA rules until the final stages of the transaction, when you have to sign on the dotted line, and the HOA rules are in the fine print on page 562, and you won't understand that they exist or what they mean without a consult with a real-estate attorney that has your interests at heart, and not making a quick sale.

    For the house I'm currently in the process of buying, we were notified up front of the existence of an HOA, and requested and reviewed its covenants prior to continuing with the purchase.

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    Stop! Dremel time!