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Kindergarteners Today Get Little Time To Play, and It's Stunting Their Development (qz.com)

Christopher Brown Associate professor, University of Texas at Austin, writes:Researchers have demonstrated that five-year-olds are spending more time engaged in teacher-led academic learning activities than play-based learning opportunities that facilitate child-initiated investigations and foster social development among peers.During his research and investigation, Brown found that a typical kindergarten classroom sees kids and one teacher with them almost the entire school day. During this period, they engage in about 15 different academic activities, which include "decoding word drills, practicing sight words, reading to themselves and then to a buddy, counting up to 100 by ones, fives and tens, practicing simple addition, counting money, completing science activities about living things, and writing in journals on multiple occasions." Recess did not occur until the last hour of the day, and only lasted for about 15 minutes. He adds:For children between the ages of five and six, this is a tremendous amount of work. Teachers too are under pressure to cover the material. When I asked the teacher, who I interviewed for the short film, why she covered so much material in a few hours, she stated, "There's pressure on me and the kids to perform at a higher level academically." So even though the teacher admitted that the workload on kindergartners was an awful lot, she also said she was unable to do anything about changing it.

228 comments

  1. Ah the 90s. by Dust038 · · Score: 0

    I was in grade school in the 90s and I remember having a 20 minute recess after lunch and that was all. I think we turned out fine...i digress. Course I could also walk home from school without my parents being sued for child endangerment.

    1. Re:Ah the 90s. by Sebby · · Score: 1

      I used to walk the 1.5 miles to school when in first grade; came home for lunch and same when getting home (though once in a while one of my parents would drive us home). I never went 'missing', nor did my parents freak out (obviously) at my being out alone.

      As for recess, I remember my first day of grade 8, the school board had decided we no longer needed recesses - I always was a bit bitter about that because I liked the break from the monotony of being taught, but also because that was the start of 'us' (my grade level students) getting screwed over the next few years with additional changes (like having the option to not take the final exam if your grade was high enough in later years, etc.) throughout high school.

      --

      AC comments get piped to /dev/null
    2. Re:Ah the 90s. by subanark · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I didn't get glasses until I was 30. I was told that I should have had them as a child, but I didn't know any better. Sure you turned out fine, but what if things were different? Could you have been better, more creative if you had more time to play? Or maybe the schooling you did have made you more focused? We will never know.

    3. Re:Ah the 90s. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I used to regularly walk home despite living 7 miles from school, usually after clubs and such.

      The real problem is that too much time of the kids' day is structured and rote, which means that when they eventually reach college or post-school they're not going to be able to handle unstructured time well. Recess was more than just a time to mess around on the playground or shoot hoops, it was a time to learn how to deal with peers in a neutral environment. A child who can help form teams for a pickup game and keep everyone playing by the same rules is learning much more about leadership and diplomacy than any lesson in the classroom can effectively teach.

      Granted, we shouldn't entirely dispose of more traditional learning techniques (understanding math takes quite a bit of rote memorization and repetition), but children need to learn more peer-driven social lessons. I used to work for a charter school system that operated on a system close to the article's setup, and while it worked to get the kids accepted into colleges (which was more or less the only goal), it rarely kept them there.

    4. Re:Ah the 90s. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Oh, please. The whole "you cant leave your kids alone for 2 seconds" thing was well and firmly in place by the 90's. It was in the 80s when everyone started wetting the bed about kidnappings and child safety. By 1990 that part of the culture was exactly the same as now. What's changed is Tigermomism now translating into no free time for kids at all and all their free time now being consumed by structured activities which no adult would put up with for 5 minutes. If someone made me play soccer after work, learn an instrument, learn chess, and do random volunteering on the weekend too I would do physical harm to that person, but then I'm 30 and get a choice.

      We don't let kids be kids and all because we forget that humans have piss poor retention anyway and the dumb kid wont remember even half the nonsense you are trying to cram into his head when he grows up.
       

    5. Re:Ah the 90s. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And now all the kids sit in a chair all day and eat mystery "meat" "pizza" "rectangles" for lunch and get fat.

    6. Re:Ah the 90s. by rudy_wayne · · Score: 3, Informative

      I was in grade school in the late 60s and had at least one 20+ minute recess all the way up through 6th grade. I remember having two recesses a day (morning and afternoon) in the early grades and being disappointed that there was only one recess in the later grades. I also remember in kindergarten we put mats on the floor and took a nap every day. There are many millions of people who are my age and who experienced the same things and grew up to be great leaders, engineers, scientists, etc.

      The irony of today's situation is we are pushing kids harder and harder, younger and younger, based on the belief that this is necessary to 'compete with the rest of the world', and yet, we are producing far more functionally illiterate high school students than back in the bad old days when things were more relaxed.

    7. Re:Ah the 90s. by epyT-R · · Score: 1

      In the 80s, we had 30 minutes for lunch and 45 minutes for recess. I guess they don't want kids spending too much time playing as it might give them a taste of the free thought that comes with free-play.

    8. Re:Ah the 90s. by oh_my_080980980 · · Score: 1

      Because self reporting is honest and accurate...ass...

    9. Re:Ah the 90s. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I see you don't recognize that they're talking about kindergartners.

      None of this is good for 5 yr olds.

      But you probably have no idea about that.

      I feel a little bit better about the future of our great country today

      Only because you're fucking ignorant of childhood development.

    10. Re:Ah the 90s. by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      As in "Kids this fed up with learning by the time they hit elementary school will never threaten my job security"?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    11. Re: Ah the 90s. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Agreed. Kids need to get a break, exercise etc. It evens helps them mentally not to mention the obvious physical benefits. I mean, what's worse right now In good old América... How fat we are or how stupid we are?

    12. Re:Ah the 90s. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What gave us the edge in the past was more than academics. It was the creativity and willingness to take risks. Those are things that are learned when kids are allowed to be kids. They need recess and play time to learn social skills, learn leadership, learn problem solving, learn independence and learn to take risks. Pushing academics too soon and regimenting their day too soon destroys the qualities that made this country a leader in innovation.

    13. Re:Ah the 90s. by OneSmartFellow · · Score: 1

      I am a parent, and I also feel like perhaps Kindergrarten should not be about only "play time". By the time I was in 1st grade, everybody could read, Dick and Jane level books. Those books are such beginner level that you wouldn't use them to teach an adult learning a new language.

      As an example:

      "Who is it?"
      Mother said, "It is not DIck. It is not Jane...."

      The fact is, most children entering into first grade nowadays aren't at that level. Their parents - frankly - suck !
      So, Kindergartens have little choice to spend this time trying to provide the most basic instruction that used to be left to parents.
      In fact I vaguely recall that it was mandatory that a child be able to write their own name, and address and telephone number before they could attend Kindergarten. Guaranteed that requirement doesn't exist any more. From some of the stories I have heard, Kindergarten teachers are happy if all their kids are toilette trained.

    14. Re:Ah the 90s. by known_coward_69 · · Score: 1

      that's weird, looking back it seems all the kids that did something after school like play sports or sing in a chorus or anything else were the ones who now succeeded. Might not be organized sports, but do something constructive instead of sitting home and watch TV

    15. Re:Ah the 90s. by Zaowulf · · Score: 1

      We have one son. When he entered Kindergarten a few years ago, he was quickly identified as being 'advanced' and would spend a good part of his day in the 1st grade classrooms, because he could read and write and knew how to count. During the meet-the-teacher event prior to the term, staff had expressed concern because we'd never put him in pre-K or daycare. As a parent of course I believe my child is special. As a rational adult I realize it's probably just because both of his parents love to read, so he naturally wanted to do what Mommy and Daddy were doing. We did not discourage this.

    16. Re:Ah the 90s. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      My 5 year old was coming home from Kindergarten with an hour of homework more than three days a week.

      http://www.edutopia.org/no-proven-benefits
      "It may surprise you, as it did me, to learn that no study has ever demonstrated any academic benefit to assigning homework before children are in high school."

      There have been many studies that prove that homework not only does not help the young, but can harm them.
      Also, this lovely chestnut that happened to my normal 5 year old boy. No recess... AT ALL.
      Why you may ask?
      We asked the teacher. The twenty something childless lady told us that our 5 year old son had trouble sitting still and filling out his math and sight word work sheets. So to 'help' she decided that the best course to deal with a fidgety 5 year old boy was to keep him in class during recess every day and have him sit quietly at his desk.

      Really, you remove all chance of physical activity and wonder why a small child can't sit still?
      We asked if it helped.... She said his 'restlessness' was getting worse and wondered if we needed to enroll him in special education... Really?
      We took him out of that nightmare and enrolled him in an 'IDEA' school. You can read up on it but basically, as far as we can tell, it is simply the same kind of school I went to in the 80's.. No more problems, good grades, and 3 recess times a day and gym every other. Minimal 10 min home work once a week and most is the same type I had; Name you family members, ask what grandpa did/does for work, read a simple book with a parent, etc.

      Also:
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kindergarten

      "A kindergarten from German, which means literally "garden for the children"[1]) is a preschool educational approach traditionally based on playing, singing, practical activities such as drawing, and social interaction as part of the transition from home to school."

      NOTE: "transition from home to school"

      Kindergarten, when I went to school, was mostly about lining up for recess, sharing toys, and learning colors and the names of the letters.
      Some counting perhaps. But mostly just how to get along, raise your hand if you need to ask something, and wash your own hands after using the bathroom.

      That was the entire idea from the start.

      My child came home with and hour of math worksheets and sight words (not phonics, but rote memorization). Children in his class had trouble sharing, playing nice, working in teams, and being good losers... Because they are no longer allowed to do what Kindergarten was intended for in the first place. To learn all the basic social norms needed to actually be ready to be a student. He was hating going to school... AT 5 YEARS OLD!

      He is now doing great at the new school.
      Is it such a wonder that letting small kids play helps them to behave and learn how to get along with others? Is it strange that a 5 year old will resist busy work?

      We need to go back to proper early childhood teaching and allow our children to be children.

    17. Re:Ah the 90s. by myowntrueself · · Score: 1

      I see you don't recognize that they're talking about kindergartners.

      None of this is good for 5 yr olds.

      But you probably have no idea about that.

      I feel a little bit better about the future of our great country today

      Only because you're fucking ignorant of childhood development.

      I think I sensed the presence of the sarcasm fairy lurking around OP

      --
      In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
    18. Re:Ah the 90s. by myowntrueself · · Score: 1

      From some of the stories I have heard, Kindergarten teachers are happy if all their kids are toilette trained.

      whoah wait! If you are from North America shouldn't that be 'washroom trained'??

      --
      In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
    19. Re:Ah the 90s. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      that's weird, looking back it seems all the kids that did something after school like play sports or sing in a chorus or anything else were the ones who now succeeded. Might not be organized sports, but do something constructive instead of sitting home and watch TV

      I think people have taken your sentence and created too hectic of schedules. If playing soccer was good imagine if he played all the sports...

      My niece is in Gymnastics, Dance, Soccer and Piano. Plus she has 20-60 minutes homework each day. She has little to no free time to play by herself or with friends and she is only 8.

      Sure those activities are better than watching TV but kids need unstructured free time too. They need to be able to make believe, run around, climb trees, invent games, read books and yes occasionally watch a little tv.

      The key is having a balanced life at home and at school and we're in a phase where we lean to heavily on structured time. Kids need more free time (and with that free time encouragement to do something not just watch tv)

    20. Re:Ah the 90s. by Darinbob · · Score: 2

      I was in Kkindergarten in the 60s. Half day only. First grade was the real start of normal school, and kindergarten was the get-ready-for-school program really. We did a little bit of learning the alphabet and basic counting, but nothing like what was described. We turned out ok.

      Today though I think we have too many panicked parents. Their child *must* succeed, *must* get into the best schools, and so forth. Every hour of the child's life is now scheduled. Plus too many panicked school officials and watchdogs. Test scores *must* go up, parent complaints *must* go down. There's a drive to keep the students on a very narrow curriculum, teach what's on the test (even though it may hurt later college entrance when there's nothing to put on the application except SAT scores).

    21. Re:Ah the 90s. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      No, it's quite different now than it was before. The fear is the same but the actions are quite different.

      What to do was drilled into our brains (phone number, address, don't talk to strangers, etc...) as I don't have kids I can't say how true that is today. I think most parents just give their kids cell phones. I don't know anyone who knows anyone's phone number. Six years ago in college some of the freshmen didn't know how to mail letters... If you saw a random kid walking around you watched him to make sure he was ok or to make sure he wasn't going to mess up your property.

      Today if you see a random kid walking around people call the cops. Before cops would watch and make sure the kids got home safe. Now they're the ones 'kidnapping' the kids as clearly the parents must not be aware of the minuscule risk of danger and thus aren't fit to have kids. You can make one phone call, make a vague truthful statement, and get someone kids taken away pending the completion of an investigation. The difference between now and then was child services used their brains before reacting. Lawsuits and bad press from when they've made mistakes means today they react before thinking.

    22. Re:Ah the 90s. by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 2

      It was in the 80s when everyone started wetting the bed about kidnappings and child safety.

      It was much more than that. The 1980s were also the time of Satanic Ritual Abuse when the nightly news reports were filled with stories of thousands or even millions of children being tortured and murdered. Thousands were accused, and hundreds of people were prosecuted for these crimes.

      Of course, the number of known victims was later revised down to zero, but there was no way to know that at the time, unless you actually considered the lack of any actual evidence, but you don't get votes and ratings by pleading with people to stop and think in the middle of a moral panic.

    23. Re:Ah the 90s. by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      Generally we had one or two things after school. And it tended to be in much later grades, 6th grade or later. We didn't have every hour of the day scheduled with activities. One day a week for piano lessons, for an hour, for two or three years until parents finally listened to your whining and let you stop going. Sports, a lot of activity for a couple months then back to the normal schedule. Band and chorus, you practice at school during the normal school day, practice at home, a few on-the-road events, not all that time consuming really. Even the top achieving students seemed to have a much more flexible schedule than today's average student.

    24. Re: Ah the 90s. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is proof. Emotional development requires that you try out your emotions without facing serious consequences. Only during pretend play can the child do this. Only when there is no focus on outcome, can the range of emotions and thoughts be safely explored and allowed to mature.

    25. Re:Ah the 90s. by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      the kids that did something after school like play sports or sing in a chorus or anything else were the ones who now succeeded.

      Correlation is not causation. The popular, successful, and socially engaged kids are more likely to participate in these activities than the misfits and kids that need to work after school to help their single mom with the rent. But that doesn't mean that these activities caused them to be successful.

      My teenage daughter was told by her HS counselor that she had to do at least two extracurricular activities, to be even considered by a good college, and it would help a lot if she has a leadership position in at least one of them. This demand for "leadership positions" had led to fragmentation of extracurriculars into a lot of tiny groups where everyone can be a president, VP, treasurer, etc. All of this is being driven by pressure (or perceived pressure) from above, not by what the kids actually care about.

    26. Re:Ah the 90s. by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      I'll make America gross again!

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    27. Re:Ah the 90s. by lgw · · Score: 1

      Kindergarten, when I went to school, was mostly about lining up for recess, sharing toys, and learning colors and the names of the letters.
      Some counting perhaps. But mostly just how to get along, raise your hand if you need to ask something, and wash your own hands after using the bathroom. ...

      My child came home with and hour of math worksheets and sight words (not phonics, but rote memorization). Children in his class had trouble sharing, playing nice, working in teams, and being good losers... Because they are no longer allowed to do what Kindergarten was intended for in the first place. To learn all the basic social norms needed to actually be ready to be a student. He was hating going to school... AT 5 YEARS OLD!

      My backwoods kindergarten in the 70's had a bit more: counting (and the names of the numbers), and I think single-digit addition, though there wasn't math homework. We also learned a bit about money: the names of coins and what a dollar was. I remember being fascinated by the idea of 1, 5, and 10 as physical objects.

      I can't imagine kindergarten, or even elementary school, without play/excercise time (though I think in 5th grade it changed to more structured gym class).

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    28. Re: Ah the 90s. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree with you, but that's not 'proof', it is a compelling supporting argument.

    29. Re:Ah the 90s. by mreed911 · · Score: 1
      "It was in the 80s when everyone started wetting the bed about kidnappings and child safety."

      Satanists. Don't forget that Satanists were everywhere and were grabbing kids for ritualistic torture and sacrifice. Strangely, they disappeared around the time the Teletubbies became popular...

    30. Re:Ah the 90s. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Only because you're fucking ignorant of childhood development.

      Name calling and profanity is not a an effective form of adult communication.

    31. Re:Ah the 90s. by I4ko · · Score: 2

      What part of the world you were in? Where I was we had a 45 minute class, followed by a 15 minute break, and after the 3rd and the 6th class (if there were more than 6) the break was doubled to 30 minutes. At most we had 8 classes of 45 minute each a day. And about 2 to 4 hours of homework, depending on how good you were at it, or how many essays, analysis, retellings, etc you had to write. Also sometime we were asked to read the next chapter from the textbook, so the teacher can actually give us entertaining and memorable facts in class, rather than regurgitate what was written.

    32. Re:Ah the 90s. by EllisDees · · Score: 2

      I couldn't read at all when I went into the first grade. By the end of second grade, I was reading 5 books per week. Forcing little kids into academics in kindergarten serves no purpose.

      --
      -- Give me ambiguity or give me something else!
    33. Re: Ah the 90s. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      NCLB is George W. Bush's signature education program, you ignorant rightwing fuckwad. Rightwing from start to finish, a real factory approach to education.

    34. Re:Ah the 90s. by BringsApples · · Score: 1

      Good on you for moving your child from that crap school. I recently took my child out of the public school system. I'm noticing that whatever my kid learns, whatever we discuss in "class" that day, when we go out in the world, my kid sees what we learned everywhere. What my kid learned today in "class", is realized that evening. THAT'S where learning takes place; in the twilight of "class", where the kid feels at ease with the vastness of the world, and feels able to connect the dots.

      --
      Politics; n. : A religion whereby man is god.
    35. Re: Ah the 90s. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm on mobile so I'll leave it to someone else to find some links, but my wife had a class in her degree called child development and play( or something to that effect) and her assignments and papers were all about the link between recess and social play and positive educational outcomes. There is a wealth of research that (at the least) strongly suggests that more recess and social play would be beneficial.

      However we are moving in the wrong direction,less recess, less chance for children to play outside and at the park in semi supervised situations. Kids are playing games and watching Netflix and parents are hovering in their play. And kids can't play outside without the parents getting cps called.

    36. Re: Ah the 90s. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And who sponsored NCLB? Wasn't it Ted Kennedy?

      It was a bi-partisan idea. Not all of it was bad, but it failed to do as intended.

    37. Re: Ah the 90s. by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      How does "pretend play" differ from real play?

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    38. Re: Ah the 90s. by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      Progressivism is not exclusive to Democrats. There are many Republicans - Theodore Roosevelt, the Bushes, for examples - whose minds are polluted to varying degrees with Progressive ideology.

      --
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    39. Re:Ah the 90s. by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      I think part of the reasoning was that Dungeons & Dragons players were covert Satanists, who'd need to sacrifice [rolls dice] five children every [rolls dice] fifteen months.

      Just part of the desire to ban teenager activity that isn't sex and drugs.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  2. Kindergarten ? by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It isn't just Kindergarten, is is throughout all of school, K-12.

    They also neglect soft education like Music and Art (often replacing with Social Conformity Drills).

    The problem is, we have people in far away cities, who don't have any real interest in the education of any student, making all sorts of Rules and Regulations (see Common Core) about not only how, but what kids ought to learn by when. All, often without any clue how long it takes to teach a room full of kids who just want to play.

    We don't live in an industrial world, we shouldn't be treating our education system like a factory.

    --
    Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    1. Re:Kindergarten ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We don't live in an industrial world, we shouldn't be treating our education system like a factory.

      In an industrial world, you want to know the cogs, the slackers, the overachievers, and the uncontrollable so you can shuffle them into their roles of industry later. The personality and ability types are very important, because when you put someone in the wrong role, things go bad.

      What we have is worse. In a surplus economy, you don't need everyone. You don't even need those who you do need to be in the best role for their abilities. You just need the people that you have to obey your orders, and you can encourage obedience with the simple truth that no one is critical, anyone can be replaced.

    2. Re:Kindergarten ? by alvinrod · · Score: 2

      Neglect for music and art has more to do with funding than any desire to cram more stuff in. There are schools where they can't even afford basic supplies like paper. How are they going to have instruments that students can use (as most can't afford a personal instrument) or art supplies such as canvas and paint if they can't afford even more basic supplies?

      The educational system is fucked for a variety of reasons (far-off bureaucrats as you've alluded to) and it seems like no one is really interested in fixing it, more so just applying their own solutions that are at best unproven or just a way of selling something to be picked up at the expense of the tax payers.

    3. Re:Kindergarten ? by chispito · · Score: 0

      The educational system is fucked for a variety of reasons (far-off bureaucrats as you've alluded to) and it seems like no one is really interested in fixing it, more so just applying their own solutions that are at best unproven or just a way of selling something to be picked up at the expense of the tax payers.

      There is no institutional fix for the biggest problem schools face: the breakdown of the family.

      Kids without parental involvement and investment in their education become anchors that drag down the rest of the class. The worse the kid, the more of the teacher's time and energy gets sucked up, the less time the rest of the class gets.

      --
      The Daddy casts sleep on the Baby. The Baby resists!
    4. Re:Kindergarten ? by Jhon · · Score: 2

      My children went to a charter school through middle school that had way too many applicants and too few seats. They had lotteries for new students. It had a requirement that parents "volunteer" a certain number of hours per child per year otherwise your kid would end up the next years "lottery". From pickup/dropoff monitors to stapling papers to assisting at school "events" -- countless ways to get hours.

      It *FORCED* parents to be at least marginally involved and in turn, appeared to have a community of parents who were interested in the success of their children and *NOT* just drop them off and forget them.

      It's what parents *SHOULD* do naturally but sadly that's not happening for the most part.

      Bring back "shame" and "judging others". If a parent wont do "the right thing" by their child because it's what they should do then let them "do the right thing" because they don't want to be shunned or looked down upon. Shame has a very important role in society and yes -- it can be abused.

    5. Re:Kindergarten ? by CaptainLard · · Score: 1

      we have people in far away cities, who don't have any real interest in the education of any student, making all sorts of Rules and Regulations

      I don't buy that at all. I think the people taking and the people tasked with coming up with those regulations largely do want whats best for students. But due to a variety of factors (almost all political) too many compromises must be made along the way so every "education overhaul" falls back on whats easiest to quantify which is regurgitating facts on tests. Thus classrooms in the US look almost the same today as they did 100 years ago. Give those people in far away cities enough time, data, and infinite "political capital" and they'll probably come up with a general system that works much better for most all students.

    6. Re:Kindergarten ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Okay, clearly you know fucking nothing. Common core aren't rules and regulations, it's a set of standards that a group of *states* put together to try and make themselves comparable. Take your conspiracy retard shit elsewhere.

    7. Re:Kindergarten ? by sims+2 · · Score: 1

      Not how it worked at mine you just got left way behind and they gave you a D- so they didn't have to deal with teaching you next year.

      --
      Minimum threshold fixed. Thanks!
    8. Re:Kindergarten ? by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      I sometimes wonder whether he only watches Fox News, or whether he's one of their writers.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    9. Re:Kindergarten ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not feasible in a world of working women and single parents. The working poor don't have free time to volunteer.

    10. Re:Kindergarten ? by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      Give those people in far away cities enough time, data, and infinite "political capital" and they'll probably come up with a general system that works much better for most all students.

      They have had the Dept of Education, since Jimmy Carter, to do exactly that. And they have failed. They have failed, not in collecting data, but generalizing "students" in such a way that no student fits their "average" student in their models. There is no such thing as "average student" except in a statistical mean.

      Sorry, but the ONLY people who can educate a student (singular individualized) is in the classroom, and they are hamstrung by the "System" these people in far away cities have come up with (See Common Core). You have people who SUCKED at learning decide how they were taught was all wrong, and you have "whole language" for reading (instead of Phonics) and "new math" and "common core" methods of doing math that take a simple one step problem and make it into a 12 step complicated problem.

      I'm sorry, but I don't buy it at all that people in far away lands can manage what goes on in every classroom, in every school, in every city, in every state in this country .... in anyway that is effective. I know, I work for a school district, and see the stupid rules and regulations mandated by people who are political hacks designing a system to fit their political agenda. In short, they don't care about Susie School Girl or Tammy the Teacher. They only care about numbers to make themselves look good.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    11. Re:Kindergarten ? by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      Sure they are. You're just tied up with the concept of "standards" which are ... nothing more than rules and regulations. They aren't merely guidelines as suggested by people like yourself, because they are not optional.

      Because Common Core gives more emphasis on procedure than the correct answer, students will grow up thinking 3x4=11, if they have a "valid" explanation for it. Because memorizing FACTS leads to correct answers without understading! (liberal logic).

      Don't tell me Common Core isn't rules based, it is. But the rules aren't based in facts, but in how things ought to be. My previous example is an example of the logic that leads to Common Core, process is more important that the result.

      BTW, the correct answer is, the process matters only if it reliably gets to the correct answer. You don't want your next car designed in a process that looks fantastic, but only works 78% of the time. You want a car that is designed by a process that is correct 100% of the time.

      So no, I do know what I am talking about. I work in a school. I see it first hand.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    12. Re:Kindergarten ? by PMuse · · Score: 1

      They also neglect soft education like Music and Art

      Are we still surprised by this? Anything that does not contribute directly to the bottom line gets cut. Recess. Music. Art. Sports. Here, the bottom line is that one-dimensional letter grade that legislators use to fund schools.

      So, if you value these things, push to have them be part of the standards by which your state judges schools.

      --
      "We reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals." --The American President (20.1.2009)
    13. Re:Kindergarten ? by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      often replacing with Social Conformity Drills

      What is that?

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    14. Re:Kindergarten ? by sims+2 · · Score: 1

      The most art we did in kindergarten was trying to color in the lines Unless you want to count gluing things to paper as art then yes we had art.

      But that was where that ended. From 1st - 12th the only opportunity at my school anyone had for an art class was only available to 7th graders well just so happens that the year I was in 7th grade was the only year they did not have the class they had it the year before and they had it the year after. Couldn't take it in 8th grade though nope you had to have taken it the year it wasn't available.

      As for music I know there is a band class now but I don't remember if they had one at the time.

      I would have liked to learn to write (as in books not as in scribbling on paper) and draw (as in better than stick figures)
      I plan to someday if I ever get the time. But it's looking less and less likely that I ever will as the years go by.

      --
      Minimum threshold fixed. Thanks!
    15. Re:Kindergarten ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      another dumb republican that can't understand math.

    16. Re:Kindergarten ? by stephenmac7 · · Score: 1

      Neglect for music and art has more to do with funding than any desire to cram more stuff in. There are schools where they can't even afford basic supplies like paper. How are they going to have instruments that students can use (as most can't afford a personal instrument) or art supplies such as canvas and paint if they can't afford even more basic supplies?

      Where do you get the idea that "they can't even afford basic supplies like paper?" From the school board (who may have intentionally under-budgeted for visible items such as paper) and teachers who have a vested interest in making it sound like the schools are destitute? Throwing more money at the problem will not fix education.

      --
      "No man's life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session." -- Judge Gideon J. Tucker
    17. Re:Kindergarten ? by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 1

      Neglect for music and art has more to do with funding than any desire to cram more stuff in. There are schools where they can't even afford basic supplies like paper. How are they going to have instruments that students can use (as most can't afford a personal instrument)

      Well, they could make their own instruments from recycled trash. Seriously -- they've figured out how to do it in much poorer countries. Kids could learn creativity in construction, crafting, and ecological responsibility along the way, as well as understanding the acoustics behind instrument construction (which can help you play better even with a "real" instrument, but most music students don't learn until perhaps grad school if ever). Oh, and you know... You can SING even without any instruments. Humans have been making music for thousands of years in much poorer circumstances than today...

    18. Re:Kindergarten ? by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      There are schools where they can't even afford basic supplies like paper.

      That is total BS. Paper for a whole classroom costs less than 1 minute of a teacher's salary. The inefficiencies in modern schooling have roughly doubled the cost of schooling (in constant dollars) from 50 years ago. There are legions of unnecessary teachers, administrators, assistants, and counselors doing little but sucking up money. Unions promote waste and get a cut of salaries, with the sole goal of increasing their own political power.

      There's no lack of money. Get rid of the waste.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    19. Re:Kindergarten ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Simple solution. Give control of the schools back to the local communities. Stop stealing money from people at the federal level and let more of the people's tax money go directly to their own local schools where they have the control to see it best spent.

    20. Re:Kindergarten ? by Jhon · · Score: 1

      I think you find the lion's share of the "working poor" are either single parents or parents who never finished high-school.

      See my post regarding now to *NOT* be poor:

      https://slashdot.org/comments....

      Finish shcool. Dont have kids before you finish school. Don't have kids before you are married.

    21. Re:Kindergarten ? by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      If you are talking about me ...

      1) I am not a Republican, I am a Libertarian. Not even the same thing
      2) I've completed math through Calculus, which is far more "math" than most people complete. I do more math in my head than many people can do on paper.
      3) Generalizing based on politics is bigotry.

      I am sure that kind of logic works in your circles, but it fails in mine. Thanks for sharing though.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    22. Re:Kindergarten ? by NoSalt · · Score: 1

      > often replacing with Social Conformity Drills

      They don't want the little children to grow up and trigger somebody.

    23. Re:Kindergarten ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you can blame a lot of that on the backwards thinking of the public and the capitalist society we live in - the policies are guided by the fear of an electorate who doesn't want to pay taxes and the minute a school runs out of money it is more important to keep a football team than an art program and jobs training than music education because the public will see soft education as a waste of tax dollars.

  3. Father of an 8 year old by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I have an 8 year old son and have been appalled by the expectations placed on kids, especially boys that are naturally energetic. I took my son out of one private pre-school that was an arts and crafts factory. At the time he was 3 or 4. First I noticed the drawings were too dark for him. Then I observed how they assembly lined the kids while the teacher would fill out the art after the kids 30 seconds was done. The teacher said my son wouldn't stay on a task and I witnessed my son very focused on painting and then the teacher took the painting so the next kid could get their 30 seconds of painting.

    I know I'm going off on the teachers, it's really the school system. I have teachers in my family that taught many years ago that retired or got out of the business. They too are appalled at what they saw in the final years of practicing their profession.

    1. Re:Father of an 8 year old by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the kids are too "energetic" we just need to give them more drugs so they can tolerate sitting behind a desk for 8 hours straight.

  4. Dealing with life by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Leaving kids to "free play" with minimal interference also allows them to learn how to deal with each other and solve problems by them selves and together.

    Problem solving when other people are involved is a pretty good skill to have. I wish my co-worker was able to problem solve at all, their default response to anything new is to ask someone else to show them, or start bullshitting something up about it to get someone else involved to do the problem solving for them.

    When I was at school we were kicked outside at lunch time for an hour and left to our own devices pretty much. Teacher would only get involved if someone was being a complete ass, doing something dumb / putting others a unnecessary risk.

    1. Re:Dealing with life by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      90% of kids do fine when left to figure out how to interact with their peers. Once a teacher identifies that small percentage that needs a little help, they can focus appropriately.

      But no, that's now how it works anymore. Parents these days throw a fit that their kid got less attention than another kid. Parents would rather worry about every little perceived slight and maximize the coddling their child receives than reflect rationally on what is best for all the children.

      And please don't tell me that since I don't have kids I don't get to criticize. I do have the right because I live in the same society as you and your children. I will eventually have to deal with your children once they are grown up, they may be my coworkers, my neighbors, or someone who cuts me off in traffic.

      * Try easing your children into the real world gradually over the next 18 years instead of sheltering them until they have a very rude awakening around 25-30.
      * Luckily most intelligent children grow up and break out of the stupid conditioning their parents forced onto them, but it is a long and painful road.
      * Don't demand that teachers coddle your children. If they got a bad grade, then great news, they now know what to practice.
      * Don't expect teachers to spend extra time on your children when your child is already doing better than average.
      * It's hard enough being a kid, don't burden a child with a parent's neurosis.
      * Art and music complements Science and Math amazingly well. And we, as a society, have made a terrible mistake on not placing the proper priority for art and music.
      * Having a sport or activity that a child can take into adulthood can dramatically improve their life-long health. (badminton, archery, tennis, cycling, cross country, whatever)

    2. Re:Dealing with life by Opportunist · · Score: 2

      But ... but then not everyone would be a winner!

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    3. Re:Dealing with life by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Only losers need to be winners.

  5. News for nerds by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    yeah uh huh...

  6. Wait for college to have kindergarten by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just saw a report about a college that had a "safe space" that had cookies, lemonade, play-dough and videos of kittens. And they want to have the public pay fore this ??? TANSTAFL

    1. Re:Wait for college to have kindergarten by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      D'awwwww... ain't that cute? Can't wait to see those safespacers hit economic reality.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  7. Potted plants are always stunted. . . by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's like putting a plant into a very bureaucratic pot, it will always be stunted by the limits of the crap curricula developed by bean counters. A child's imagination has no such limits and allows them to develop more fully. We are retarding are children with this crappy Prussian education system. Education is beside the point in that system as INDOCTRINATION is paramount for churning out corporate cogs.

  8. My recollection of Kindergarten, circa 1986 by Pollux · · Score: 3, Insightful

    We had only half-day kindergarten. We went outside at least twice a day. During the day, we sang songs, did water coloring, played with clay, construction paper and scissors, the sandbox, sock puppets. There was lots of arts and crafts. There was always story time, where our teacher would read aloud to us. The only academic work I can ever recall was studying the alphabet, learning how to count to ten, how to count money, and learning how to write our name.

    I still work in a school, in Minnesota, and now kindergarten is full day. Kids are expected to learn how to read. They do lots of worksheets, spelling tests, spend time learning how to use computers, and learn basic adding and subtracting. There's also lots of social behavior practice (how to stand in lines, how to be quiet and raise your hand, how to take turns, not interrupt others, etc.) And writing...lots and lots of writing. Long story short, what I covered in 1st grade 30 years ago is now what is expected in Kindergarten. Play is a thing of the past.

    At this rate, expect them to be bringing home Algebra textbooks by the turn of the century.

    1. Re:My recollection of Kindergarten, circa 1986 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So like Star Trek? On Next Generation the 10 year olds knew calculus.

    2. Re:My recollection of Kindergarten, circa 1986 by gweihir · · Score: 2

      And the really sad thing is that all this does not benefit them one bit. Instead, it harms them.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    3. Re:My recollection of Kindergarten, circa 1986 by PRMan · · Score: 1

      The irony is that kids that were 1st Grade age are now being held back to Kindergarten...

      --
      Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
    4. Re:My recollection of Kindergarten, circa 1986 by doconnor · · Score: 2

      That's nothing. Elroy Jetson know calculus when he was 6.

    5. Re:My recollection of Kindergarten, circa 1986 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And in 1986 an average american could get by just fine with nothing more than a high-school education. Give it another 10/15 years and those that don't get a higher education will be living in poverty.

      Whether we like it or not. this thing we know as life has become a race. You get to choose if you want to race to the top or to the bottom. Those that sit idol are racing to the bottom even if they don't realize it.

    6. Re:My recollection of Kindergarten, circa 1986 by QRDeNameland · · Score: 1

      My kindergarten year was 1969-1970, and my experience was pretty close to what you describe. I remember the teachers making a big deal of the fact that I could already read in kindergarten, and they didn't start with the Dick and Jane books until 1st grade. While I'm not one to grumpily castigate "kids these days", if they're pushing kids that much harder nowadays, I'm not seeing any particularly positive results from it.

      --
      Momentarily, the need for the construction of new light will no longer exist.
    7. Re:My recollection of Kindergarten, circa 1986 by MitchDev · · Score: 1

      A higher education is no gaurentee of of a job either, especially as STEM jobs are shipped overseas and/or staffed with H1-Bs instead.

      Wanna be rich? Be born to rich parents,,,,

    8. Re:My recollection of Kindergarten, circa 1986 by Jhon · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "Wanna be rich? Be born to rich parents,,,,"

      Wrong question.

      "Wanna *NOT* be poor?" is the right question.

      And the way to dramatically reduce the chance of that is to (A) Stay in school. (B) Don't have kids before you finish school. (C) Don't have kids before you are married.

      Is it fool proof? No. Bad luck happens. But the chances of being habitually poor are pretty much negated.

    9. Re:My recollection of Kindergarten, circa 1986 by WaffleMonster · · Score: 1

      And in 1986 an average american could get by just fine with nothing more than a high-school education. Give it another 10/15 years and those that don't get a higher education will be living in poverty.

      Whether we like it or not. this thing we know as life has become a race. You get to choose if you want to race to the top or to the bottom. Those that sit idol are racing to the bottom even if they don't realize it.

      Meanwhile the value of what one knows grows increasingly worthless with each passing year. Enjoy your sinking ship.

    10. Re:My recollection of Kindergarten, circa 1986 by lgw · · Score: 1

      And the way to dramatically reduce the chance of that is to (A) Stay in school. (B) Don't have kids before you finish school. (C) Don't have kids before you are married.

      This! This isn't preachy moralism, it's firm statistics. These factors matter (for avoiding poverty) more than race or parents income.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    11. Re:My recollection of Kindergarten, circa 1986 by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      A higher education is no gaurentee of of a job either

      Do I hear the voice of experience?

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    12. Re:My recollection of Kindergarten, circa 1986 by shadowrat · · Score: 1

      I was in kindergarten in the mid '70s and i remember it was a big deal that i could read. It was just me and a couple other kids in this reading group. A couple times a week, we had to skip recess and do our advanced reading class instead. I don't think it affected me in any way, but i was bummed out about it.

      When i entered first grade, the teacher gave us reading tests to separate us into different skill levels. I saw this as my chance to start over, threw the test, and told the teacher i couldn't read.

      Ah. I got one blissful week of just being a normal kid. Then my mom found out and was furious. Back into the advanced reading group i went.

    13. Re:My recollection of Kindergarten, circa 1986 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My experience is the opposite. Every year I learn something new and get a substantial raise.

    14. Re:My recollection of Kindergarten, circa 1986 by CanadianMacFan · · Score: 1

      What, they aren't expected to learn how to program the computer? They are going to fall behind if they don't get computer science! Why won't someone think of the children?!?!

    15. Re:My recollection of Kindergarten, circa 1986 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is what my son's kindergarten was like a few years ago. Art and music classes too. YMMV.

    16. Re:My recollection of Kindergarten, circa 1986 by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      That's a little extreme, maybe, but in principle, there's no reason we couldn't teach the basics of algebra right alongside the basics of math in first or second grade, while kids still have the mental flexibility to become good at abstract thinking. Teach it in terms of computer programming, where you aren't thinking of variables as placeholders,but as something more concrete initially. Then become progressively more abstract over the years so that we can be teaching calculus by junior high.

      Of course, we don't do these things—largely because most K-8 teachers don't have a strong enough math background to teach them, rather than because the students can't learn such things at that age.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    17. Re:My recollection of Kindergarten, circa 1986 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      (D) Don't have kids after you are married
      (E) Don't have kids

      Seriously, there's no value in having kids anymore.
      Get a cat.

    18. Re:My recollection of Kindergarten, circa 1986 by Prien715 · · Score: 1

      Statistically speaking, if you spend your whole childhood poor, you have a roughly 45% chance of being poor yourself in adulthood.

      One of the jobs of teachers (my mother taught 2nd grade for a couple decades) is to work with families and students to make sure it doesn't happen to the kids they teach. No amount of Common Core is going to help a Haitian kid who's not learning to read because he doesn't speak English. However, talking to another teacher to get his cousin in her class (who is bilingual) got him up to the 2nd grade reading level in a single year.

      --
      -- Political fascism requires a Fuhrer.
    19. Re:My recollection of Kindergarten, circa 1986 by MitchDev · · Score: 1

      You had nothing of use to say but you didn't let that stop you. Very American

    20. Re:My recollection of Kindergarten, circa 1986 by Jhon · · Score: 1

      Your link is broken. ...but lets assume that number is valid and my guess is it's lumping in "everyone" who was poor as a kid and doesn't break out any other statistics. If you look at the 55% who lived their whole childhood poor as kids but not as adults and checked to see if *THEY* had kids while in school or before married I wonder what you would find...

    21. Re:My recollection of Kindergarten, circa 1986 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      On average, children only develop the full mental acuity required to read by grade 2 (This is partially due to grades covering 365 days difference in development in children. That is quite a spread for children as young as 1700 days old. Think of the difference between someone who is 65 and someone who is pushing 80. But the school system praises the significantly older child that easily breezed through reading and makes the very young child that isn't ready to read feel terrible for not keeping up.

    22. Re:My recollection of Kindergarten, circa 1986 by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      If you don't understand the value of having children, it's a good thing you don't have children.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
  9. No time to play we have the test and college prep by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    No time to play we have the test to learn or we lose our funding and college prep to do.

  10. US education policy... by matbury · · Score: 2

    ...is increasingly being dominated by people with little or no teaching experience, training, or knowledge about the theory and practice of learning.

    Who has prescribed this academic curriculum for kindergarteners? What do they know about developmental psychology? Have they even read Vygotsky, Piaget, Bruner, et al.?

    Something tells me that the people doing this don't have children's, teachers', and parents' best interests at heart.

    1. Re:US education policy... by whoever57 · · Score: 1

      Piaget

      You know that Piaget has been largely discredited, right?

      But, yes, education policy is dominated by know-nothings whose only strategy is "fire the bad teachers". Where the good replacement teachers come from with the pitiful salaries that most teachers earn is never discussed. Also not discussed: how to identify the "bad teachers".

      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    2. Re:US education policy... by gweihir · · Score: 2

      Good teaching is hard. You have to know and understand those you teach to. You have to be flexible. You have to select a small set of things to do really thorough and a larger set to just touch on the surface. And then, if that was not hard enough (and apparently already impossible for the people that create these courses), you have to engage your students and earn their respect. You have to give them a lot of freedom to find out whether what you taught them actually works or not. You have to allow them to find their own styles of learning and understanding things. None of that is possible in a drill-based system that is aimed at conformity and at weeding out troublemakers. Sure, such a system is the wet dream of all the people that desire a totalitarian system and abhor personal freedoms. But these systems are the very worst things humans have ever created.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    3. Re:US education policy... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The people in charge tend to not be teachers, since teachers in the US usually get the shit end of the stick (unless you're a tenured college professor) with only the teacher's union to protect them (which usually does a shitty job of that). The ones making the policies are akin to shareholders: uninterested in the inner workings of the system, but eager to maximize return on investment. Common Core promises to create a generation of semi-geniuses on par with the academic elite from other countries, so they greenlight the program without realizing that it essentially arrests development and emotional intelligence, which is a helluva lot more important in the job market these days than raw skills.

    4. Re:US education policy... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In my grade school, "bad teachers" as identified by the administrators were simply those who didn't coach sports teams. Sadly, it's quite often a buddy buddy system in smaller towns, and the few teachers who actually inspired us to learn never got the recognition they deserved. There are no good metrics for judging the quality of a teacher...

      Judging by student reviews: 'tough' teachers are marked down
      Judging by administrators: friends of the principal are marked up
      Judging by standardized tests: limited lesson plan creativity, and a batch of poor students marks the teacher down

      My dad, a high school teacher, always complained that while teachers were paid decently, they weren't paid fairly. I took his physics class and was able to use that knowledge to sleep through my first year of college physics classes and still get A's. However, he was considered a 'hard' teacher, and most other students didn't like him simply because he actually expected us to learn how to solve problems rather than how to apply cookie-cutter solutions. Why should we be penalizing teachers who encourage their students to think? This will only discourage a quality crop of new teachers who otherwise might not care about the low starting salary.

    5. Re:US education policy... by Austerity+Empowers · · Score: 1

      Piaget

      You know that Piaget has been largely discredited, right?

      At some point we hopefully get to the point where we realize this entire field is discredited and stop trying to use it to set policy. Keep studying it all you want, much like economics, it has the feel of science without any of the icky details of repeatability and determinism.

      Until you have something that absolutely, definitely works, let's just teach kids with teachers who are masters of their subject. Those kids who aren't learning fast enough probably need MORE, not LESS, teaching, so teach them more, even if it costs more.

    6. Re:US education policy... by rubycodez · · Score: 1

      False, not discredited at all, some disagree with him but his influence has been huge.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    7. Re:US education policy... by whoever57 · · Score: 1
      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    8. Re:US education policy... by apoc.famine · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Until you have something that absolutely, definitely works, let's just teach kids with teachers who are masters of their subject.

      That sounds good, but in practice it's not good. Why? To be a master of your subject, you have to live and breathe your subject. To be a good teacher you need to be a bit of a generalist. You can't be so hyper-focused on one thing that everything else in life gets excluded.
       
      I've got an education degree and some teaching experience, and I've also spent a fair bit of time working in and around grad-school STEM programs. The experts in those programs are the shittest teachers, for the most part. Why? They never learned about how kids learn, because they were busy becoming experts. They never learned the basics of assessing learning because they were becoming experts. They never learned motivational strategies because they were hyper-motivated on an exclusive topic, and it never occurred to them that some students need some motivation the way they would for any other topic.
       
      What we need are not masters of their subjects, but communicators and collaborators who can give kids access to people who are masters of their subjects. I once filled that role, connecting NASA scientists to middle school science classrooms. The NASA scientists weren't teachers and didn't know the first thing about it, and the middle school science teachers weren't scientists and engineers. But when we set up the communication and collaboration between the kids and the experts, amazing stuff happened.
       
      That's one thing we need. The other is equitable funding. I think that it's Germany that does the opposite of what the US does. They still have standardized tests, but the results are secret. The lowest performing schools get more money, and the highest performing schools get less. That makes all of the schools roughly the same, and parents don't know which ones are better, so the rich parents can't move their kids out, leaving behind the poor (minority) kids. The US does the opposite - we openly publish our assessment scores, and we threaten to withhold funds from poorly performing schools. Since we also have wacky local funding, parents create these "ghetto schools", as rich parents move their kids to the best performing schools, and work to ensure that they don't need to pay for the schools they left behind. Great for their kids, but terrible for all the other kids. But who cares when you can live in a gated community with a guard to keep the rabble out, right?

      --
      Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
    9. Re:US education policy... by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      let's just teach kids with teachers who are masters of their subject.

      How many could Stephen Hawking teach?

      Like the man from IBM said, about half a dozen physicists should be enough.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    10. Re:US education policy... by rubycodez · · Score: 1

      ooo, random wordpress blog complains certain early 20th century psychological theories still hold sway! You have a powerful argument there!

    11. Re:US education policy... by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      Those kids who aren't learning fast enough probably need MORE, not LESS, teaching

      Good way to turn dislike of a subject into active hatred.
      Frequently, what is needed is a different approach.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    12. Re:US education policy... by matbury · · Score: 1

      You know that Piaget has been largely discredited, right? [citation needed]

  11. Common Core Makes This Worse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I say this as an extremely high achiever in pre-University education (and, a regular high achiever after that). I had a perfect GPA in high school and was valedictorian. I was head and shoulders above the other kids in elementary. This is not about me personally. This is not me whining.

    School today is simply not developmentally appropriate. No one ever thinks about the opportunity cost of more academic crap. In the quest to cram ever more curriculum into school, we are losing the ever-so important human element. Common Core will only make this worse. Kids need time to play. It's that simple.

    1. Re:Common Core Makes This Worse by gweihir · · Score: 1

      I was somewhat in a similar role, but fortunately I had a lot of freedom to fill my time with things that interest me. The absolute worst thing you can do in teaching is to focus on rote memorization, and that is what cramming more and more things into a curriculum does: It eliminates understanding and replaces it with memory, which is a very, very bad substitute.

      When I design a course (currently doing that again, for advanced CS students), I first make a list of what should be in there. Then I throw out what is not really necessary and reduce a lot of the rest to just giving the students the idea. Some things are so important or serve well as example that I go into more detail, but knowing what to leave out or treat only briefly is, IMO, even more important than knowing what to put in. Nothing sabotages learning effort more efficiently than putting in too many things or too many details. The learners will come out of that completely confused.

      --
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    2. Re:Common Core Makes This Worse by turp182 · · Score: 1

      Early school years are mostly memorization, with some understanding. Understanding should be the focus in later years, after a solid foundation is established.

      My kids are in first grade, and I'm very surprised by the level of home work they have (French immersion school, homework in English).

      You mentioned Advanced CS students, I would like to change the topic to early grade school students:

      Memorization: Words and numbers, the basic tool kit - not a small set of tools either.

      Understanding: Story structure, addition/subtraction (math in general). These also hinge on memorization, a concept forgotten is not useful (for me, calculus, and the statistics and actuarial risk concepts based on calculus - which I no longer remember, my forgetting was actually on purpose...).

      I appreciate the comment but wanted to bring the conversation down to the... level of the submission.

      --
      BlameBillCosby.com
    3. Re:Common Core Makes This Worse by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Memorization is not a foundation for understanding. Anybody thinking that has not understood understanding. It is a common failure though, people thinking that recognizing data makes them understand anything. My guess would be they feel familiar and safe with that data, but understanding is not in the picture.

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    4. Re:Common Core Makes This Worse by Shadwhawk · · Score: 1

      Common core has nothing to do with what you've written. Common Core is simply a standard of what a student in a certain grade should be able to do or understand (eg, a graduating third grader should be able to identify basic shapes by categories and divide shapes into equal fractions). It doesn't say how teachers should teach the subject, and it doesn't say 'no play'. How students are taught varies between states, districts, schools, and individual teachers. If a district adopts a specific math curriculum from Houghton Mifflin Harcourt and their third grade materials present the basic geometry one way and the district demands no deviation, then it gets taught HMH's way. If the state and district are more lax, and the school administration is fine as long as the kids get the material, and the teachers want to present the geometry their own way, Common Core doesn't stand in their way. And if a district wants their elementary schools to have three recesses or two or none, that's up to the district and whatever state or federal guidelines apply. Not Common Core.

  12. Re:We need to take action by Vermifax · · Score: 1

    So edgy, be careful you'll cut yourself with that snark.

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  13. USA's Education system is messed up by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Doesn't matter how much or how little free time or work time or technology or math or science or music or whatever the kids get. The education system in the USA is 100% botched from its premise all the way through its execution. It the students it turns out don't know how to learn and worse, don't want to learn anything once they get their diploma.
    Let the little kiddies play all day for all the good it will do, or set them free in a room full of baseball bats and hand guns. At least the survivors will learn how to defend themselves.

    1. Re:USA's Education system is messed up by sims+2 · · Score: 1

      I ended up with the highest tested reading and comprehension skills in my graduating class but I would not go back to that daily hell for anything. I could go to college it might be different but after going through our local high school, I don't think I could even today mentally cope with anything similar to it and for how much college would cost to attend it's not worth the risk.

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    2. Re:USA's Education system is messed up by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A semester at community college isn't much financial outlay (and if you can't afford, can usually get grants that you don't have to repay).
      It's significantly different than high school, give it a go for one semester, see what you think.
      You can probably even "audit" a class for free, you just won't get any credit for it, but it would give you exposure.

  14. Why is this bad? by ErichTheRed · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I'm a dad of a new kindergartener. They're not solving differential equations at this level; it appears that they're trying to get them on a level playing field, accounting for differences in background, etc. If a kid has spent the last 5 years doing nothing but watch TV and has never been read to, they really have to catch them up quickly. First grade is apparently where the "rigorous academics" start. My kid already learned to read and has a pretty good background in the basics, so I imagine it's going to be a less than engaging first year.

    I know everyone hates the common core stuff, but I do see the point. Teachers aren't given a class full of kids with attentive parents who care about what their kid does in school. Maybe some are like that, but others are too busy, don't have the educational background, or the family is poor and education takes a back seat to living. Absent the nice home life, the schools have to do everything they can to ensure they give a kid a fighting chance education-wise.

    Also, having recess is almost optional in my mind. Chinese, Indian, Korean, Japanese and other countries' students spend way more time in school than our students do. Education is valued in those societies and they make sure they turn out well-educated students. Look at some of the university entrance exams from countries on this list and compare it to high school curriculum in the US. Compared to these countries, we're doing nothing near that level of work with students. Visiting faculty from other countries send their kids to private tutors to ensure they receive a level of education on par with their country's system so the kid won't be behind when they return home. I think the school day should be longer and the school year should be year-round. Only 2% of the population works in agriculture anymore, so there's no excuse for students to be out the whole summer anymore.

    1. Re:Why is this bad? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You learn socializing skills through play. If they aren't playing they will grow up maladjusted little robots but if the goal is to emulate China -- do exactly that. I'm sure this probably is helping the kids at the very bottom, but its probably doing harm to the rest who don't need to be turned into little machines.

    2. Re:Why is this bad? by oh_my_080980980 · · Score: 4, Informative

      India, with the lowest scoring educational system? Japan as recess. Perhaps you should stick to topics that you know something about or better yet research before you post. Ass.

    3. Re:Why is this bad? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      You should look at some of the schools in Scandinavian countries and ask yourself why they are graduating after 10 years at around the level of a college sophomore while US schools are turning out people after 12 years that need remedial classes in college.

    4. Re:Why is this bad? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Chinese, Indian, Korean, Japanese [...] Education is valued in those societies and they make sure they turn out well-educated students

      I believe you mean, "cramming is valued in those societies."

    5. Re:Why is this bad? by PRMan · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If these other countries' education systems are so great, then why is everything invented in America? Because we (used to) take the time to allow people to think creatively. This includes recess, music, art and after-school playing around the neighborhood. As these things disappear from the education system, so will our lead in invention.

      --
      Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
    6. Re:Why is this bad? by kaka.mala.vachva · · Score: 1

      Ding ding ding! I agree, I do not understand why this is bad. When my grandfather went to school, he was a rarity in rural India. My father went to school - he did well, and learned more than his father. I went to school, and learned more than my father. My son did kindergarden last year, and definitely learned more than I did at his age. And this is how things are and should be. Each generation should learn more than what the previous one did. And I don't think my son (or indeed, any of the other kids in his class) found kindergarden particularly onerous. Like all kids, they had their pluses and minuses - some learned to read really early, while others were good at problem solving. W.r.t summer holidays - I personally think a much better approach would be to have multiple smaller holidays through out the year.

    7. Re:Why is this bad? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The US is 3400 different school system and not all yielding the same result. Upper middle class communities in the US are graduating globally competitive students ready for college and on the same level as any European graduates, but the US is very big and very socio-economically diverse and the poorer communities are graduating people not ready for college. We know how to graduate competitive students in the US. The problem is they have to be from households making $100k a year or over. Schools cant make up for broken or poor homes, sorry. Europe with flatter income distribution doesn't have this problem so when you talk about Norway there is really only 1 Norway to talk about and not 3400 different Norways the way you have with the US districting system.

    8. Re:Why is this bad? by epyT-R · · Score: 1

      My kid already learned to read and has a pretty good background in the basics, so I imagine it's going to be a less than engaging first year.

      Then that school is doing your kid a disservice and wasting all that time you put in to his learning the basics. Why should your kid be held back by welfare funded children who weren't weaned properly?

      I know everyone hates the common core stuff, but I do see the point.

      I don't. School shouldn't be a model of Marxist equal outcome. Human beings are too diverse to work that way. This has been proven repeatedly over the last 80 years and the powers that be still haven't gotten the message.

      Also, having recess is almost optional in my mind. Chinese, Indian, Korean, Japanese and other countries' students spend way more time in school than our students do.

      and their societies praise conformity over free-thought and innovative approaches. In the case of Japan anyway, their suicide rates are the highest in the world. No shock there. China and India are rife with corruption and social ladder climbing because merit doesn't count for shit. It's all about what class the kid was born into. Koreans are rigid and tightassed to a fault. Sure, they're good at training their little prodigies, but I don't want to live like any of these people do. If you want your kid raised this way, please just move there. I feel sorry for him.

      Summers off are part of growing up.. Those little bits of unstructured time to explore bits of what it's like to be adult: camps to explore interests/ (healthy) teamwork, part time jobs first times driving, etc.. Trust me, you don't want to coddle your kid like they suggest until he hits 18 and then drop him off at college.. You WILL regret it and he will hate you for it.

    9. Re:Why is this bad? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Also, having recess is almost optional in my mind. Chinese, Indian, Korean, Japanese and other countries' students spend way more time in school than our students do"

      Race to the bottom so that we can be a nation of obedient fact reciters? no thanks!

      You want to breed people that will be good in factories, ask the chinese. You want to breed people that will be good in call centres? ask the indians.

      These societies are not something we should ever model ours on. Children need to be creative and play more. Not be thrown into the pointless "system" so that they can start it all over with their own children. Worker cogs, conservatives. That is what regimented education breeds. Much better to have creativity and mindfulness be the centre points of education. Let the third world make all the laybourers for the next few generations till they catch up and realize that a life of hard work at minimum wage, to put food on the table is a life wasted.

    10. Re:Why is this bad? by avandesande · · Score: 1

      Tell me more about the great innovations from Chinese, Indian, Korean, Japanese adults.....

      --
      love is just extroverted narcissism
    11. Re:Why is this bad? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But they produce far more Doctors, scientists and engineers than the USA

    12. Re:Why is this bad? by bfpierce · · Score: 1

      "why is everything invented in America"

      Because there are tons of top level people with money to blow on a risky venture. How the hell do people who read slashdot not realize this.

    13. Re:Why is this bad? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You do realize that the countries you listed have some of the highest suicide rates on earth, right? They may do well academically, but it's at one hell of a cost.

    14. Re:Why is this bad? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "If they aren't playing they will grow up maladjusted little robots"

      Citation please? Look at all the Tiger Mother kids out there -- on average, they turn out way more successful than average American students who are allowed to screw around all day. They're the ones who get the Ivy League college slots, and that's basically a ticket to lifelong success.

    15. Re:Why is this bad? by WaffleMonster · · Score: 1

      Also, having recess is almost optional in my mind. Chinese, Indian, Korean, Japanese and other countries' students spend way more time in school than our students do. Education is valued in those societies and they make sure
      they turn out well-educated students. Look at some of the university entrance exams from countries on this list and compare it to high school curriculum in the US. Compared to these countries, we're doing nothing near that level of work with students. Visiting faculty from other countries send their kids to
      private tutors to ensure they receive a level of education on par with their country's system so the kid won't be behind when they return home. I think the school day should be longer and the school year should be year-round. Only 2% of the population works in agriculture anymore, so there's no excuse for students to be out the whole summer anymore

      This is just opinions without any merit based justification. I will dismiss it as such.

    16. Re:Why is this bad? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      True, but there are different levels this can be taken to. I just looked this up out of curiosity because I read the book a few years back: Daughters of demanding 'Tiger Mom' Amy Chua open up about their childhood

      School systems can't become the Tiger Mom, but I do feel they can do a little more to encourage kids to achieve their potential. Part of that starts with a longer school day and a heavier focus on academics. Recess is fine as long as there's time for sufficient study.

      As for those two Tiger Mom daughters, they're at Harvard and Yale now. From this point forward, there is very little stopping them from having a lucrative career. Once you're in that club you're golden - investment banks only hire from the Ivy league, same with management consulting firms. Both of those careers have an extremely high return on investment, as their former employees often mysteriously wind up as executives in the corporations they work with. In addition, the potential to become a respected academic or go to one of the 14 "good" law schools that will still get you a Biglaw job is much higher than a kid who goes to an average state school. It's the equivalent of being born into a high caste in India or knowing the right Party officials in China.

      As the world continues to automate away jobs, it's even more important that we turn out educated kids regardless of background.

    17. Re:Why is this bad? by butchersong · · Score: 1

      You would need to control for demographics to make a comparison between Scandinavia and the US

    18. Re:Why is this bad? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But they produce far more Doctors, scientists and engineers than the USA

      Because they have ten times the population. Their rote-learning based schooling and socially instilled inhibitions on questioning authority make them pretty limited scientists overall.

    19. Re:Why is this bad? by sims+2 · · Score: 1

      That's mostly myth it was mostly done because the school buildings were too hot it the summer before air conditioning and it hurt attendance.
      http://www.pbs.org/newshour/up...

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      Minimum threshold fixed. Thanks!
    20. Re:Why is this bad? by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Perhaps you should stick to topics that you know something about or better yet research before you post. Ass.

      Wow, and here people were going to take you seriously. Too bad.

    21. Re:Why is this bad? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yup, if you want to solve a problem you just have to throw more money at it!

    22. Re:Why is this bad? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are missing the point... it's about playing, and playing !== watching TV. trying to cram too much information into a kid doesn't give them any room to think which is far more important than pure memorisation and regurgitation, kids need to understand things not learn as much wrote crap as possible - that was the old way. The funny thing is that playing is really good at this. Learning is all about the learner, the learner needs to explore and play in their way because its about their mind, not to be instructed like a factory worker because it's all about the factory (AKA school and their pretentious agenda).

    23. Re:Why is this bad? by b783719 · · Score: 1

      You have some good points about the importance of the common core.

      But I do consider Asia or those other countries' students spend way more time in school than our students do and turn out well-educated students is a bias statement. Asia's mentality and culture encourage force fed education, increasing mass amount of information (the good part) that includes pointless knowledge (the bad part) that either an average adult today would have difficulty in solving or just have no meaning in solving unless it is your future study topic.

      The good part ensure in average the students know more information, but the bad part's trade off is they lost so much time that they no longer have the bigger picture in terms of academic, business, and life's meaning which destroy the countries further development and innovation.

      You know why apple and google are here today? It's because the founders didn't finish their studies and had decided to try an idea. You know why those countries don't? It's because they're too busy studying.

      Those countries education system have reached to a point that it started to hurt their own development even without them knowing.

      tl;dr been there, done that. They are just as bad.

    24. Re:Why is this bad? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Speak for yourself, pussy.

      He's right about India and Japan, and the dude was being an ass. Feel free to contribute something other to the subject than your faux outrage.

    25. Re:Why is this bad? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow really. You don't think having tons of immigrants many in the STEM fields have anything to do with this?

      You don't think having large amounts of money and venture capitalism has anything to do with this?

      The thought that somehow the US education system allows for more creativity in my opinion is false narrative.

    26. Re:Why is this bad? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because we are not talking about school. We are talking about Kindergarten, the time that the brain develops and fixes the feelings of empathy and freedom.

      School (for factory societies) should come next, and in post-industrial very much later.

      I implore all to read this https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/freedom-learn/201505/early-academic-training-produces-long-term-harm

  15. No Child Left Behind by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In order to comply, the following will be added to junior and senior Kindergarten.

    -Drooling 101
    -Feces Based Painting 101
    -Unintelligible Moaning 101
    -Paste Eating 101
    -Urinating Everywhere 101

    Heck US kids would be in the top of the class!

  16. Fuck 'Em by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They better get used to not having any free time. Especially in academia.

    No-one cares anymore. Most of these kids are lucky to exist. Who has the fucking time to have kids anymore? They might as well learn to be busy little automatons when they're young. It will save on disappointment later.

  17. entire school day... by Austerity+Empowers · · Score: 3, Interesting

    An entire school day here in Texas means from about 8-3, minus 40 minutes for lunch, 20 minutes for recess, and 15 minutes for morning announcements. Seems pretty sparse and there's plenty of time to go play somewhere before dinner and bed-time (which some shaman are insisting should be 730p). Since my kids go to school very near where this yahoo practices his quackery, I can honestly say they goof off at school in epic proportions. I can say for a fact that they didn't cover such complex topics as "the alphabet" or "adding numbers" in kindergarten. Whatever they were doing, wasn't strongly academic.

    All I see down here is more concentrated efforts to defund public schooling, pushing more interested parents into debt for private schools that still focus on academics. Public schools have always worked reasonably well, but it's clear that the more we defund and defocus them over the decades, the lower the quality of the graduates produced. In Austin they're talking about doing away with homework, and this fool is trying to provide the support needed. This is great way to cut pay to teachers who don't have to grade it, but whether we liked it or not as kids, there is is a time when you need to memorize certain things, and homework is the weapon of choice. Class time should be spent on questions and explanations, homework is the ideal time for reading new material and memorizing what things absolutely need to be memorized.

    The entire topic of "child initiated" blah blah "social development" is saying happy words that people like to hear but has absolutely zero substance. If I get home another paper that my son "collaborated" on with his peers that contains mistakes that I know he is far beyond but he tells me "well if I tell her she's wrong she cries and we all get demerits", I will scream. Sure it's an excellent opportunity to teach leadership, but on the spot it isn't happening because teacher is busy with the remedial kids who still can't do their ABCs, but we can't have remedial/normal/advanced classes because it marginalizes someone (read: that budget was cut). At home it's out of context and contrived, particularly on a child who is not destined for leadership by its current definition (i.e. Zaphod Beeblebrox's school of CEOing). Whatever fantasy land this asshat lives in, he should retreat to, he couldn't handle the world he's shaping.

    Let's keep school focused on academics, but when we get to the teenage years not be afraid to spend some money on kids who have no track record of academics, and help them with trade skills in a useful, non-profit, way. For now, if lack of play time is hurting children, it's probably all the after-school sports/band/dance/cheerleading/gymnastics/music/etc. stuff parents sign their kids in to as extended daycare. A friend of my son's has an after-school schedule that is full of more junk than my work calendar. Surely by the time they're done with all that they are exhausted and too tired for homework or required reading anyway.

    1. Re:entire school day... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Total nonsense. School funding is the highest its ever been. Kids are most definitely still split up by ability and they most definitely don't put the remedial kids in with the above average kids, and no one is really saying "do no homework," except for a handful of crazy charter schools trying to attract moron parents, but we have doubled the amount of homework nationally in the last 30-40 years and gotten nothing to show for it except for really stressed out kids. They certainly aren't doing better on tests.

      America does just fine educating middle and upper middle class students. The top 50% are globally competitive. The bottom 50% are not and are falling further behind. The attempts to bring them up to snuff are resulting in these crazy policies like "no recess" and "double homework." The result is no improvement in the bottom half and stressed out kids in the top half.

      The reason we underperform Europe is income inequality, immigration of unskilled, uneducated labor from third world countries, and parent who have to work more hours than their European peers. Nothing the schools do can addresses this unfortunately. Going all Tigermom in schools will never make up for a broken home environment. Its apples trying to be oranges. It doesn't work. If mom and dad come home and are too tired from their 12 hour days to even talk to Junior a little more homework wont fix Junior's home problems and conversely less homework wont do much either since Junior likely isn't doing homework at all with no parental oversight there.

    2. Re:entire school day... by sims+2 · · Score: 1

      I seem to remember not being allowed to do homework in class even if I had already completed all of the classwork for that hour.

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    3. Re:entire school day... by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      bed-time (which some shaman are insisting should be 730p

      If you do that, your kids will be waking up at 2:00-3:00AM, and jumping on your bed. I am not making this up.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
  18. its just free daycare by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Kindergarten, especially the new trendy "all day kindergarten" is just free daycare for people who have kids, subsidized by those who don't.

  19. Pendulum by chispito · · Score: 1

    It isn't just Kindergarten, is is throughout all of school, K-12.

    They also neglect soft education like Music and Art (often replacing with Social Conformity Drills).

    The problem is, we have people in far away cities, who don't have any real interest in the education of any student, making all sorts of Rules and Regulations (see Common Core) about not only how, but what kids ought to learn by when. All, often without any clue how long it takes to teach a room full of kids who just want to play.

    We don't live in an industrial world, we shouldn't be treating our education system like a factory.

    Unfortunately when the politicians and education bureaucrats realize this, they will mandate an equally stifling "soft education" regiment.

    --
    The Daddy casts sleep on the Baby. The Baby resists!
  20. Indoor recess is sit down and be quiet by amigabill · · Score: 2

    I visited my son's Kindergarten for a day last year. When it's cold or rainy, they have indoor recess, which was in the media room that day, sitting in the dark, asked to sit still and be quiet while they watched a vouple Curious George videos. OK, so a cartoon monkey is jumping around on a pogo stick trying to make a painting that way, making a huge mess, and 5 year olds watching are expected to sit still and be quiet? No talking, we don't want to start any social interaction either... Weird... It it any wonder that kids are being judged as more and more unruly when you change the rules to be impossible for them to succeed in?

    1. Re:Indoor recess is sit down and be quiet by sims+2 · · Score: 1

      Speaking of changing the rules that's probably where my problems in school started and why my penmanship is barely legible today. I was taught to write my letters and numbers the wrong way the first year I was in school I know I was because I still had some of the practice sheets from the first year when the second year started so it was easy to prove. Apparently, the first teacher was wrong.

      They had changed what was considered to be the correct way to write letters the second year I was there. So everything I had just learned about writing the year before I was then told was wrong I had to do it the new way. I suppose I didn't really try anymore after that and as a result, my writing looks as bad today as it did in 1st grade.

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  21. BTW by matbury · · Score: 1

    This story was originally published in April in TheConversation: http://theconversation.com/kin...

  22. Re:We need to take action by epyT-R · · Score: 1

    Yes because an obsession with athletics led to what? An army of fat armchair football fans?

  23. Whatever... by TheSync · · Score: 2

    John Stuart Mill was taught ancient Greek by the age of three. By the age of eight, he had read Aesop's Fables, Xenophon's Anabasis, and the whole of Herodotus, and was acquainted with Lucian, Diogenes Laertius, Isocrates and six dialogues of Plato.

    My kids are way behind!

    I will admit two laments about modern education:

    1) Too much homework for young kids (pre-K, K, etc.) Not that homework is a bad thing, but when a kid can't even read, "homework" is really "parent work".
    2) Too many public school fundraisers. I thought this was all socialist schooling paid for at the point of a gun by taxes? If they expect me to pay for school, I'll send my kids to private school and move to some place that has lower taxes. I don't remember any of these crazy fundraisers when I was in school...

    1. Re:Whatever... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can't tell if your post is sarcastic or delusional.

    2. Re:Whatever... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "John Stuart Mill was taught ancient Greek by the age of three. By the age of eight, he had read Aesop's Fables, Xenophon's Anabasis, and the whole of Herodotus, and was acquainted with Lucian, Diogenes Laertius, Isocrates and six dialogues of Plato."

      The he had a MASSIVE mental breakdown in his teens.

    3. Re:Whatever... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You must have been either in a wealthy district with a bond initiative, or are very old. I remember 2-4 fundraisers every year since elementary school, more if you join the band (4 times a year, wrapping paper, candles, pizza kits, etc.) Then add in sports and Scouts. Shoot you're fundraising more than Clinton or Trump if you have a kid in School.

  24. Already Implemented in Ontario, Canada by Godai · · Score: 4, Insightful

    My wife is a kindergarten teacher, and over the last four years there's been a push to 'play based learning', presumably resulting from the same kind of research mentioned in the article.

    By and large it seems fine, though it doesn't alleviate some of the problems they mention; specifically my wife still feels the pressure to move through the curriculum, but it's a little less clear how. Part of the 'learning through play' initiative also pushes heavily on 'self guided learning', and while all of this seems great, there's not a lot of guidance given on how to execute. I think most of us would agree that it's better if the student is interested & wants to learn the subject, but there's no real help about what to do if the student /isn't/ interested. Presumably the teacher just forces the kid to learn what has to be learned, but all the material provided leans heavily on instructing teachers not to do that.

    At any rate, this is mostly just typical of governments adopting something and not thinking through how to implement fully. Still, the impression I get from my wife & her colleagues is that the ideas are good (play-based learning) but it'd have been nice if there was better instruction on how to follow through.

    --
    Wood Shavings!
    - Godai
    1. Re:Already Implemented in Ontario, Canada by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you are missing the point. It's not supposed to be structured. Kids will learn and ask questions and you should respond. Not ignore then. Why? Why? Why? Don't ignore them. Answer the Why? already Don't be like your parents were.

    2. Re:Already Implemented in Ontario, Canada by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This typical of the Common Core stuff. Good ideas, poor execution.

    3. Re:Already Implemented in Ontario, Canada by Luthair · · Score: 1

      Maybe this depends on what you're referring to as self-guided but the in vogue approach of not teaching multiplication tables, long division, etc. has shown to result in a poorer understanding of mathematics.

    4. Re:Already Implemented in Ontario, Canada by olau · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I have two happy kids in a Waldorf kindergarten here in Denmark, and here's a biased opinion: basically you leave the kids alone and let them play with whatever they want to play with for most of the day, preferably outdoors in a calm setting.

      Kindergarten is not really for intellectual stuff. Your wife should forget the curriculum and let the school handle it - the fact she's called a teacher is part of the problem. She should see herself as someone providing inspiration and someone whose behavior is worthy of replicating, not as someone who instructs.

      In my kids' kindergarten, the adults study fairy tales so they can retell them to the children (recounting them orally, never reading directly from a book) to provide fodder for their imagination. They also cook and do other household chores each day, again setting examples for the children to participate in and replicate in their play.

      For a small child, there's a lot to be learned about self-motivation, inventing things, experimenting, self-confidence and important topics such as friendships and life. Counting and reading is easy, in comparison, for a determined, self-confident child. So better wait with that.

      In a nutshell, as far as I'm aware, you don't end up being a better reader by learning to read one year earlier. But you might end up being more self-confident and self-motivated by having entertained yourself through play for that year.

    5. Re:Already Implemented in Ontario, Canada by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      over the last four years there's been a push to 'play based learning'

      I really wish people would try these things out in small samples to see how they work, instead of just pushing the latest hot trend onto teachers. Teachers must get whiplash because of how fast these things go back and forth.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    6. Re:Already Implemented in Ontario, Canada by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What about the kids who don't ask any questions?

    7. Re:Already Implemented in Ontario, Canada by Godai · · Score: 1

      It's funny, my wife & I were talking about that the other day. Her cousin's kid can't do multiplication to save her life and neither of us could fathom why they dropped the multiplication table approach. Great, calculators are useful, but if you don't have one, you can't even *do* long-form multiplication if you don't have the Ten Times Table memorized. We agreed that whatever the hell the schools did, our kids are going to know their goddamn multiplication tables.

      --
      Wood Shavings!
      - Godai
    8. Re:Already Implemented in Ontario, Canada by LienRag · · Score: 1

      Yes, play-based learning is a very good new idea indeed, and has consistently brought good results since its first introduction...
      It is touching indeed how our transatlantic cousins are able to pick an effective innovation so quickly!

  25. Society Advances? by mlw4428 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Society is continuing to advance. Kids should have to learn more, because WE have learned more. 200 years ago they weren't being taught what we were being taught and 200 years before that the same thing. The problem is this antiquated notion that school should start at 7:45AM and end at 2-3PM with sports taking up until 7-8PM. Of course that 7 hours has to include lunch, breaks, gym, and anything else that isn't directly "education" related. Children have more history to learn, more science, more technoloy, and they have to be better thinker/problem solvers/etc. Perhaps I'm strange, but I just think that's a natural progression. What needs to happen, instead of cutting back on necessary education, is adding another hour or two to each day (especially to the older grade levels).

    1. Re:Society Advances? by Kjella · · Score: 1

      A modern day "Renaissance Man" like Leonardo da Vinci would be a quack in everything from medicine to aerospace. Or brain surgeons need to know brain surgery, our rocket scientists rocket science but any one person would only know a tiny little fraction of all human knowledge even if he studied 24x7 from the day he was born to the day he died. Yes, obviously the more knowledge we accumulate the longer the climb before you can stand on the shoulders of giants but you can't just decide to make it go faster. It's a bit like saying we climbed this 4000m mountain in a week, now we'll climb Mount Everest in the same time by going twice as fast. It does not work that way.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    2. Re:Society Advances? by olau · · Score: 1

      Children have more history to learn, more science, more technoloy, and they have to be better thinker/problem solvers/etc.

      I don't think you're right. The answer to vastly increased human total knowledge isn't to spend more time studying. That would be like trying to empty the ocean with a single glass. It is simply not possible. Progress would halt immediately if people tried doing that.

      I recall I think it was Donald Knuth recollecting that when he started it was possible for him to follow all computer science publications available to him. Well, that era ended some decades ago.

      Instead we spend more time specializing. Self-determination, learning how to navigate through the ocean of information yourself and being inventive are what's important. That's not the kind of things you can learn by sitting on your bottom listening to a teacher. It requires playing with things yourself.

    3. Re:Society Advances? by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      Some things become obsolete. Religious training in public school used to be standard, it's widely ignored now. Bits and pieces of various fields have been dropped as irrelevant to modern life. In many fields teaching has become more efficient, as subjects thought to be prerequisites to "final" skills and knowledge have been found unnecessary or have been streamlined. The time saved from teaching obsolete material can be dedicated to new stuff.

      Who teaches "casting out nines" these days?

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    4. Re:Society Advances? by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Children have less to learn in many cases. Even in the backward US, weights and measures are a lot simpler than they used to be. Being able to write by hand quickly and readably (I managed the quickly) was vital when I was a kid, but now dropping cursive looks like a better and better idea.

      We do have more history now (partly because we've been learning more about already existing history), and more science. We don't have to teach all of it. If kids used to wind up knowing 2% of science and now know 1.5%, but still get the general idea, we're fine. Becoming better thinkers and problem solvers is useful, and class instruction can be useful there, but you need to give kids free time to practice those skills.

      In the meantime, we're still working with humans, and humans have limits. We need to work within those limits, and adding additional school time will work only up to a point, and I suspect we're already there.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  26. It's not happening by accident, it's a feature. by LuxuryYacht · · Score: 4, Informative

    The solution to the problem is already known and long ignored in the USA.

    Michael Moore documentary clip of on Finland's school system:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
    Unless they just made that up for the film.

    --
    Quidquid latine dictum sit altum viditur
    1. Re:It's not happening by accident, it's a feature. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1
    2. Re:It's not happening by accident, it's a feature. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's Michael Moore, so I'm apt to take it with a grain of salt.

      But the reality is that you'd have to convince a whole lot of people first. To the average taxpayer who went to a school that probably gave them loads of homework, it sounds like a surefire method to pussify the next generation as well as a waste of tax dollars being spent on giving rotten children more free time to act like hooligans. To the average school director, it just sounds like some teacher's pipe dream to have a lighter workload. To the average parent, homework represents a quantifiable tool they can wield against their children for discipline, and its removal represents a loss of control that they used to hold.

      There may come a day when the US catches on (much the same way that we eventually bore a generation that wouldn't tolerate slavery), but for the time being no school system in the US would be caught dead abolishing homework, with maybe the exception of San Francisco and certain neighborhoods of Manhattan.

  27. commentsubjectsaredumb by Falos · · Score: 1

    >There's pressure on me and the kids to perform at a higher level academically

    Because more results gets more funding.

    Which is just asking for shit. Begging for shit. ANY sort of automated yield is. People game the system if you chain them to one. Leaning on metrics is often a flawed equivalence right away, and if not it will be soon, by those affected.

  28. I could be way off by Jfetjunky · · Score: 1

    I could be way off, but I believe it's a result of just a few things taken too far.

    1. Everyone expects schools to make their kid a genius. It's fine if all kids aren't necessarily gifted, as long as yours isn't the kid that's not. 2. In an effort to prove just how much kids are being taught, metrics are administered (usually in the form of tests). Teachers, needing to eat and stay housed, begin to sway their curriculum to ensure they get good results on these "metrics".

    BAM, U.S. school system.

  29. no, no, you are missing the point by HBI · · Score: 2

    Education is about indoctrination, not about improving humanity. You don't want people to think, but to spout out the right responses to stimuli so that they can function well in the totalized bureaucracy we have created. Indoctrination is easier the earlier you get them...

    There is an economic factor to requiring more and more college to just go out and work, and it has nothing to do with actual qualifications. It has to do with an attempt to avoid the reality that there aren't enough jobs for everyone by keeping the kids in college for 4-8 more years. Whole cohorts of the population that do not require employment - pushes the problem off for about one administration.

    On sort of related but unrelated notes:

    Whine-fests about the lack of STEM graduates are irrelevancies. There aren't huge caches of smarter people that haven't been mined. The population is what it is and education has little to do with it beyond what we would mostly call vocational training - learning the rote tasks required for one trade or another. Forcing more people through a STEM curriculum is great for devaluing what that actually means, rather than producing more trained people.

    If we were interested in efficiency, we'd ask how to get the maximum benefit from the brains we have rather than bemoaning the lack of better ones. So the hacks that advocate H1B programs are just that, hacks.

    --
    HBI's Law: Frequency of calling others Nazis is directly correlated with the likelihood of the accuser being Communist.
  30. kindergarten has recess for 20/24th of a day by rubycodez · · Score: 1

    Kindergarten in these United States is only half a day long.

    Cranks up antique horned vinyl record player with patriotic music repeatedly warbling higher than lower in proper pitch for background while the announcer proclaims, "The United States rose to greatness during era of one teacher/many grade school houses..."

    1. Re:kindergarten has recess for 20/24th of a day by amigabill · · Score: 1

      My kid's kindergarten last year was a full day long. The half-day thing that I knew of Kindergarten, when I was long-ago a kid in PA, is here today called pre-K in MD.

    2. Re:kindergarten has recess for 20/24th of a day by amigabill · · Score: 1

      A full elementary school day long that is, same as the 1st-5th graders.

  31. Suck it up kids by mveloso · · Score: 0

    You can play all you want when you're underemployed making minimum wage.

  32. Re:We need to take action by myowntrueself · · Score: 1

    Yes because an obsession with athletics led to what? An army of fat armchair football fans?

    The only country in the world with less than 1% of its population considered fit for military service...

    --
    In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
  33. They're not there to play by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    They're there to get job training. Companies are tired of coddling your kids. They want workers to come out the door ready to go. They sure as hell aren't gonna pay to teach em...

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
  34. Yikes - by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Ah, American public education: Where young minds go to die, and old mistakes live forever.

    When I was a kid in the early 1990's, things were a lot different than they are now. We didn't have uniforms. If we lived close enough to the school, we were allowed to walk, and very few people thought that this was unusual at the time. Recess came twice a day, first in the morning, then in the afternoon after lunch, each session lasting about 15 to 20 minutes depending on the day's schedule. We went outside and played.

    The curriculum wasn't terribly sophisticated but it did its job. Both phonetic and whole-word reading were taught. (The former was later dropped, and you can always tell if someone in my town came before or after the change. The folks that came later have difficulty with unfamiliar words to this day.) The math was basic, but appropriate for our age level. In kindergarten in particular we spent a lot of time with arts and crafts, but art class was still a part of our routine up until middle school. Reading, writing, arithmetic, art, music... All in a not-particularly well off school system.

    I was a precocious reader and advanced through math quicker than other students as well. I was offered advanced material from the next grade up. Other students who moved along quicker had this opportunity as well. You weren't expected to know second grade material in first grade, but if you did, more power to you. It worked pretty well at the time.

    The more I learn about how schools function now the more glad I am that I grew up before the new millennium. Less and less time outside, higher and higher requirements, and for what? I've been in this town my whole life. I work in a setting where I meet new graduates constantly. They aren't getting smarter, I can tell you that much. What they're getting is meeker, fatter, and shockingly less literate. I'll just say it - they're getting dumber by the year with no bottom in sight. Things have not gotten better, they've gotten worse.

    In our zeal to close gaps with the educational systems in the rest of the developed world we adopted a surface level approach to correcting the deficiencies of our own system, without addressing the underlying problems which more than ever before set our young people up for failure in school and beyond. We fooled ourselves into believing that if our schools resemble our idea of what a Japanese, Korean, or Chinese school looks like, then the problems will solve themselves. (Surely, our students will become fine young Asians in no time!) We fooled ourselves into thinking that throwing more money, more man-hours, and millions of dollars of computer equipment into dysfunctional schools would cause them to magically transform into bastions learning. None of this ever happened, and I think it's fair to say that we have never known less how to run a school and administer education. Everything we do, everything we try in schools is based on fantasies and assumptions, nearly always flawed assumptions, not on evidence or any kind of actual understanding of the students, their families, and their needs. Delusions have won the day.

    Now they're trying to take summer away, so our students can spend even more time indoors, spend even more time not exploring the world around them, spend even more time consuming educational resources that the taxpayers provide, all for less than no benefit. Traditions are dying. Play is dying. Childhood is dying. Families care less than ever before whether or not their children perform well in school and most people have grown to resent the education system. Too many kids don't know where they'll sleep next, when they'll eat next, whether or not they'll get new clothes. As for the teachers, they're almost universally overworked and underpaid, and the constant changes - driven by the delusions of an utterly useless administrative class - have left the entire teaching profession in chaos. School itself is dying. We've never spent more on it, we've never committed more time to it, and we've never had less t

    1. Re:Yikes - by sims+2 · · Score: 1

      I don't know of any schools in my area that require uniforms (other than for things like band or sports or something like that)
      They do have a dress code however. IIRC no skin showing above the knee no tube tops, ect.

      I probably still have a couple of old copies of the school handbook somewhere. I figure they are probably a bit out of date now though.

      No it was quite well known you could ask any student back when I was in school the teachers did not care.

      And nobody seems to have any common sense. It should be obvious just from looking at it how a pipe wrench works but some people insist on trying to use it backward and then complaining it doesn't work.

      How all new gas cans today are so flow limited due to the safety valves and not being properly vented you can't get 5Gallons of gas out of a 5 gallon tank in 10 minutes

      How well this one actually makes some sense lighters have intentionally hard to use safety to prevent their use by children and the elderly.

      And how a 100 year old can not get their pills in containers that they themselves are able to open the pharmacy has pill bottles that can be converted to nonchild safe but they will not provide them pre-converted.

      And It is my understanding that the school nurse will not check students blood pressure if a problem arises due to liability reasons.

      --
      Minimum threshold fixed. Thanks!
    2. Re:Yikes - by Scottingham · · Score: 1

      I think you forgot to tell us to get off your lawn.

  35. Timely article for me. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I have an incredibly advanced 2 year old toddler that is an absolute learning sponge, He already knows the English alphabet, can identify upper case as well as lower case numbers, count to 100 forward as well as backwards, identify 15 colors, properly name 12 different shape, point out 30 different animals and much more. He is an absolute chatterbox that knows hundred of words. Okay, self gloss over.

    We enrolled him into a class that that was supposed to be for kids to eager to learn and develop skills for kindergarten. We pulled him out within 3 weeks after seeing what an unhealthy and growth stunting experience it was to be in "baby boot camp." The fully structured day centered around rote learning did more to hurt than help, We were told he was "behind" because he could not independently and unassisted put on his own shoes. Apparently he was forced to try for two hours and was deemed a "failure" because he needed a helping hand. He was also called "underdeveloped" because he could not memorize and repeat a set of vocabulary words. These were random words like "dream" that a kid could not identify or tie to anything specific. There is little free play and the kids are tied to "circle time" most of the day. We told the teachers it was useless if a kid could repeat words but not be able to use them in daily conversation. The final straw came when he was forced to sit in a chair by himself with food because he did not clean up within the allotted time in the rigid schedule. When my wife found out, she lost it on the teacher and told her to cram the lesson plan up her birth canal.

    We have since enrolled him in another preschool where the kids get to be kids. He is learning organically by doing, seeing, and touching. The is some structure for activities but the kids are free to go with any number of choices. He gets to be social and has already made several friends. The pace of his learning has only picked up when he is allowed to explore and indulge in his curiosity. Most of all, he gets to run around and be happy. I agree with what others have said. Rigid and structured environments simply create kids that can pass tests and repeat what they are told. Many will end up functionally illiterate and unable to cope with real life. Other parents in our community agree as well.

  36. I have a 4 year old son by marmot7 · · Score: 1

    That means next year he starts Kindergarten. I just assumed Kindergarten involved a lot of playing, not to mention time outdoors. I'm concerned as 4 isn't that much different than 5, and I can see that learning and play aren't entirely separate for him. Often, when he's learning well he's in the zone playing. It's how I think adults learn best. Little boys focus the most energy on learning whatever interests them the most, say, dinosaurs, monster trucks, and insects. Then they'll add something to the list, maybe drop something maybe not.

  37. Play makes good learners by NotARealUser · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Some of my best learning opportunities came from play. I played in the woods and road my bike around town with friends (those big scary places that today's parents tell their kids to avoid). I had to fix my dad's computer after breaking stuff because I messed with IRQ settings to get my mouse and my sound working at the same time (and I had to do it before he got home from work and found out!). I played Axis and Allies, Risk, Chess, and other games that required thinking. I pieced together civilizations and learned how people react when playing Sim City and Civilization games. I tinkered with electronics. My parents let me build a fort. I planted seeds I found and watched them grow. I moved spiders to different parts of the yard, watched them build a web, then observed them eating mosquitoes.

    This is where I learned the most. Play keeps learners engaged. Strictly academics is boring. I think society is too focused on maintaining the status quo and it is killing the fire of desire for learning that burns in the hearts of young children. Without play, and with an overemphasis on memorization (as opposed to experimentation) you make dull, lifeless people who lose the ability to be more than cogs in the machine of society.

  38. No this is all wrong. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Small children need more science and math. They should be learning calculus and quantum physics by the time they are 3 years old. Fuck this physical activity and life scenario play shit. Pump them with drugs and teach, teach, teach. They need to be more intelligent, so we can gloat to the rest of the free world.

  39. Re:We need to take action by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If the rich want to make the world safe for capitalism, they can fight their own battles.

  40. Kindergarten.... by sims+2 · · Score: 1

    Well now that was a long time ago. One of the things I remember about high school was that the library was off limits unless you had a class that used it. Before school? Closed. Lunch? Closed librarian takes lunch same time. During class? I only ever had one class that used the library and that class only used it twice. After school? Closed.

    So when are you supposed to use it?

    As for kindergarten I just remember the neat little school play we did and all the toys that were always in varied states of missing. I vaguely remember having to recite a-z and 1-100 and getting punished for things other kids had done. I don't remember if we had a recess or not.

    One more question. Would you think it ok if in the workplace today your boss said hey you know how bob broke the $5 lamp in the break room? Well because of that we are docking everyone a day's pay.

    --
    Minimum threshold fixed. Thanks!
  41. Healthcare by tomhath · · Score: 1

    We don't live in an industrial world, we shouldn't be treating our education system like a factory

    If you like public education you'll love what Congress will do with socialized medicine. Remember, Pelosi's goal was to put insurance companies out of business:

    “Well of course I wanted single-payer, and I wanted a public option. But that not being in the mix, uh, you have to prioritize what it is you want to get over the finish line.” - Nancy Pelosi

  42. Light Treatment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Put the kids out for proper two hours of play at the brightest time of the day and the eye glasses shopping parents will thank you in a couple of years. Also, more play, physical and social development.

  43. Re:We need to take action by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

    Don't be silly. They'll introduce a military equivalent of the H1-B.

    Hey, it worked for Rome. A bit.

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  44. Why I oppose pre-k by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Younger kids have a harder time focusing, are more active, have a shorter attention span, and require smaller class sizes. If you can choose between 1 year of teaching a 5 year old, or a 19 year old, I'd choose the 19 year old. Shove the 5 year old outside frequently to burn off their energy, and stick inside with some educational TV program. The 19 year old has a large amount of socialization, and low income, to be made suitable for abuse by their lecturer.

  45. No child left any time? by slapout · · Score: 1

    Could this be a side effect of the "No Child Left Behind", that even though Bush signed was written by Ted Kennedy.

    --
    Coder's Stone: The programming language quick ref for iPad
  46. Seymour Papert by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Seymour Papert, inventor of Logo, and an inspiration for Lego Mindstorms, had this simple theory of education - Children learn more by doing than by studying. A basis education is important, but free time is important, too.

    1. Re:Seymour Papert by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Children learn more by doing than by studying.

      I wanted my grandson to become an army officer so I encouraged him to learn about war. And what did he do - he went out and fucking invaded Poland, that's what. So much for your theory.
      --
      Maria Schicklgruber

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  47. maybe it is about lawsuits by renegade600 · · Score: 2

    If they let the kids go out and play, and while playing they get hurt, the school gets sued. It is easier and cheaper to keep the kids in a controlled environment.

    1. Re:maybe it is about lawsuits by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nah not really. Instead the school's insurance paid my $1500 deductible because the kid broke his arm on school property. Perfect!

    2. Re:maybe it is about lawsuits by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you nailed it. At my kids kindergarten running on the playground is forbidden. Any infraction means the kids spend the entire recess standing in long lines where they are not allowed to talk. Talking in line means means you get a "silent lunch" where you sit alone and aren't allowed to interact with anyone.

      The teachers in the public school seem absolutely terrified of losing control.

  48. Good stuff here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Lots of great comments by slashdotters, many with children in the trenches. Educational policies will continue as is until you get rid of the Progressives. Unfortunately their death-grip on policy will be very difficult to break.

  49. Re:We need to take action by myowntrueself · · Score: 1

    Don't be silly. They'll introduce a military equivalent of the H1-B.

    Hey, it worked for Rome. A bit.

    I've often wondered how single countries, such as Japan or Germany or UK managed to occupy such huge swathes of land and colonies given their population. Surely they can't have actually had their own national forces doing the occupation. So yeah they must have done some outsourcing!

    --
    In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
  50. I guess they are trying to move high school down by stabiesoft · · Score: 1

    because in HS now, they don't do anything. A friend teaches at a underperformer school. No homework, name your grade, text, neck, whatever you want in class. So now kindegarden teaches and high school baby sits. Crazy world.

  51. Rockets! by AndyKron · · Score: 1

    We built a rocket out of cardboard boxes in kindergarten. No reading, no writing, no cipherin'

  52. fuck'n whiners by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I learned multiplication in kindergarten. I read The Hobbit before kindergarten.

    Then I got into 1st grade, and every year after that I had to prove that I already knew the shit they were having me do. By the time I proved it, I had to prove the next thing on the list. And when I didn't cooperate because I knew that shit already and was getting ahead they drugged me to slow me down. No child allowed to exceed.

  53. On the Wildness of Children by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    On the Wildness of Children
    http://carolblack.org/on-the-w...

    From the above essay:
    --
    At the turn of the twentieth century educational theorists were quite open about the fact that they were designing schools for the purpose of adapting children to the new industrial order. Children must shed their "savage" wildness, these pedagogues maintained, and develop "civilized" habits like punctuality, obedience, orderliness, and efficiency. As Ellwood P. Cubberley, Dean of the Stanford University School of Education, put it in 1898:

    Our schools are, in a sense, factories, in which the raw materials -- children -- are to be shaped and fashioned into products... The specifications for manufacturing come from the demands of 20th century civilization, and it is the business of the school to build its pupils according to the specifications laid down.
    --

  54. Yeah, Sure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    SK and Japan school their youth to hell, so that they can make cheap, excellent electronics and cars for America and some other places. I say hell because many of these people are then unable to have children themselves.

    The economies and societies of these US vasalls is broken to the point of collapse in something like two decades.

    Germany is not better, they (Merkel and her fellow elitists) try to replenish the ack of kids by importing Arabs.

  55. Welcome to Waldorf Education by mgargett · · Score: 1

    While it was mentioned in a post from someone from Denmark, folks here in the US should look no further than their closest Waldorf school. My daughter, who is now 9, has been in either a Waldorf-influenced or Waldorf proper school since going to school when she was 3 and a half. I highly recommend it to everyone I meet. The heart of the early childhood school is play. There is no homework, which has been shown to be useless so early. Please, save our children, reintroduce play into their lives, they will thank you for it I assure you. See Why Waldorf at www.waldorfeducation.org, and it will explain everything. Trust me, our kids lives will be better the more Waldorf schools we have.

  56. Huh! You think its bad in the US... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I've been teaching for 35 years here in Japan, and it is so bad here that the American Public School System is a shining light of progress!

    Most local authorities have given up persuading/bullying/coersing children who refuse to come to school. It looks bad on the records, so if they are recognised as a 'refuser' they are marked as present, and they graduate anyway.

    But you guys are running towards a cliff, no doubt about it.

  57. Mostly money by bussdriver · · Score: 1

    The USA is where the most funding exists.

    The USA has massive corporate welfare scheme which pays for risk taking (bankruptcy being a little known one.) This unnoticed part of the welfare system costs more than most other programs (S.S. and Medicare are never included in a fair minded analysis; those are directly funded separately; purposely isolated from everything else.)

    The USA does not do much of anything today except higher end design work; where they still pay quite well globally and brings in people.

    Massive research/education system the USA has is often overlooked because corporations successfully get credit for "innovations" that are largely the work of others. You might hear about some MIT invention because of their great PR but 5 years down the line when it ends up in some product you most likely do not make the connection (plus the company will patent their implementation of it.)

    Finally, the USA used to have an education system which promoted free thinking and creative thinking. Today other nations use the research and past experience to improve their education systems while the USA models 3rd world failures in their system - if it were not for cultural and institutional momentum it would be so much worse. Part of this is ignorant ideology which drives both parties too much; the other is the GOP plan to purposely foobar public education (I've heard this from a top party official) so long term privatization can finally get enough public support (so this scheme is also ideological.) What amazes me is how arrogant they can think decades of failure can be made up for by our inherent superiority to the world. The rest the world progresses while we go backwards; in the end, every well run system will be very similar and "competing" within slim margins that are meaningless.

  58. The Wall by tmjva · · Score: 2

    Damn, no Pink Floyd reference? You have already been stunted.

    All of you! Fools!

    And you don't even know it.

    --
    Tracy Johnson
    Old fashioned text games hosted below:
    http://empire.openmpe.com/
    BT
  59. Bloody peasant. by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

    Why should your kid be held back by welfare funded children who weren't weaned properly?

    If you can't afford private school you're lumped in with the rest of the 99%.

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  60. They're 5 and 6 years old by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Aren't they supposed to be out getting JOBS, already? Being productive members of our Consumer Services Economy?