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Microsoft Signature PC Requirements Now Blocks Linux Installation: Reports

Posted by msmash on from the boom dept.

Reader sombragris writes: According to a well-documented forum thread, the Signature PC program by Microsoft now requires to lock down PCs. This user found out that his Lenovo Yoga 900 ISK2 UltraBook has the SSD in a proprietary RAID mode which Linux does not understand and the BIOS is also locked down so it could not be turned off. When he complained that he was unable to install Linux, the answer he got was: "This system has a Signature Edition of Windows 10 Home installed. It is locked per our agreement with Microsoft."
Even worse, as the original poster said, "[t]he Yoga 900 ISK2 at Best Buy is not labeled as a Signature Edition PC, but apparently it is one, and Lenovo's agreement with Microsoft includes making sure Linux can't be installed." As some commenter said: "If you buy a computer with this level of lockdown you should be told."

There is also a report on ZDNet which looks very understanding towards Lenovo, but the fact remains: the SSD is locked down in a proprietary RAID mode that cannot be turned off.

33 of 491 comments (clear)

  1. Strange by chispito · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If I were planning to run Linux on a computer, I probably would have done a few quick searches on driver support beforehand. And I wouldn't be buying it at Best Buy.

    --
    The Daddy casts sleep on the Baby. The Baby resists!
    1. Re:Strange by MBGMorden · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I was doing that 6-7 years ago, but I haven't worried about "driver support" for anything in Linux in about that long. Almost everything works these days - intentional sabotage by competitors being the obvious exception.

      --
      "People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
    2. Re: Strange by cayenne8 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Not saying it isn't possible. But those are devices that the OS maker did not intend to be able to run Linux or any other OS but their own. The fact that workarounds have been found is beside the point.

      What workarounds are you talking about?

      I'm not familiar with Pixel...but with an Apple, you just boot up from a USB with Ubuntu or whatever distro you want and it installs.

      There are no lockdowns or pitfalls you have to work "around"...the Apple machines are not locked down in the fashion that this article about windows on the lenovo speaks to....

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    3. Re: Strange by cayenne8 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Just because the workarounds are transparent to you doesn't mean they aren't happening. Apple is not selling you a device for the purpose of you loading Linux on it. The fact that you can doesn't mean they made it easy for the open source community to reverse engineer and come up with work arounds to make it possible to install Linux.

      I think there is a difference in terminology.

      A "workaround" implies that a manufacturer has intently put up roadblocks to installing whatever OS you please.

      But until now...hardware, is hardware is hardware.

      There's no difference (till now with the Windows thing) in buying a computer from Dell, or Apple, or Asus...etc....and you putting whatever OS you want on it.

      It is JUST hardware, set to run whatever code you wish on it....at least that has been the model till now.

      Apple sells you the hardware, it happens to come with their OS pre-installed, but really, once you give them your $$, they don't give a fuck what you do with it....

      Apple pretty much uses for the most part, off the shelf components to do their computers...there is no "making it easy".....that doesn't enter into the equation really.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    4. Re:Strange by MickyTheIdiot · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The biggest problem here is that it wasn't even disclosed to the buyer as being a "signature series". I am against lock down, but lack of disclosure is an even bigger problem.

      OEMs ought to be disclosing whether or not their hardware has proprietary Windows drivers, however they don't do it. It goes beyond "let the buyer beware," a lot of times the info isn't there.

    5. Re:Strange by donaldm · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It's not just intentional sabatoge that can cause a lack of support. Newly release chipsets or other hardware often doesn't have initial Linux support. Sometimes it takes time for that to get incorporated into the kernel and make it's way up the pipeline. Moreover, each distro tends to incorporate new kernel changes at different paces, and it makes it hard to predict how soon support will arrive for new hardware.

      I'm not sure if this is the case here. The story makes it sound like it was deliberate, which wouldn't be too surprising I guess, but it's hard to say.

      In early December 2015 I built myself a Desktop using the latest Skylake Chipset (released 5th Aug 2015) and all I had to do was select "Other OS" and I installed Fedora 23 KDE spin without any problems. I did find an issue a short time later with my monitor which has two HDMI slots and DSUB slot. Basically, everything worked, however I also connected my PS4 to the spare HDMI port so I could switch between my PC and PS4 and this worked perfectly. Unfortunately switching back to the PC port dropped signal which required me to reset the PC.

      The fix was for me to get the latest BIOS (the same day I found the problem) and this fixed the issue of toggling between PC and PS4 or my PS3 if I moved the HDMI cable across. I have been using this configuration ever since.

      I can understand if graphics drivers are not available for a new graphics card but I would not be surprised if Microsoft is starting to pull tactics like what is mentioned in the article. Originally Microsoft wanted secure boot (to protect the users of course, cough! cough!) or UEFI. The problem with this is many major Linux distribution got UEFI certified as well which I would assume defeated the original purpose of having secure boot.

      No, the issue is Microsoft is being Microsoft and nothing has changed.

      --
      There ain't no such thing as proprietary standards only proprietary formats. Standards are by definition open.
    6. Re:Strange by bmk67 · · Score: 3, Funny

      Right, they don't call it "ram" for nothing.

  2. Two words. by JustNiz · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Class action.

    1. Re:Two words. by Z00L00K · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Such clauses need to be tried in court as well - a lot of EULAs aren't worth the paper they are written on.

      Was the EULA provided before purchase?

      --
      If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
  3. Simple answer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Just return it.

    Demand a refund, no matter how much Best Buy tries to tell you that they won't.

    It's unfit for the purpose that you bought it for, and expecting it to be fit for that purpose is not unusual or unreasonable.

    If they completely refuse to refund your money, sue everyone involved (BB, MS, and Lenovo) in small claims court. Small claims goes up to $2500 or even $10,000 in a lot of jurisdictions, so it'll cover the cost of a PC you can't use for the purpose you bought it for.

    Alternatively, if you have a lot of spare time and/or a desire to really make a mess while making your point, demand Best Buy give you a replacement, leave the store with it, take it to the parking lot, cut open the box, unwrap a few components, re-stuff the box (poorly), come back in, and return that unit also. Repeat until the store is out of new stock. Every item you do that to has to be refurbished, which costs Lenovo a lot of money that isn't in the margin of that unit. Then demand a refund from Best Buy, since they can't replace your defective item.

  4. Lenovo is at fault, not MS (per the article) by GregEschbacher · · Score: 5, Informative

    The article more accurately summarizes things than the biased snippet: "On first blush this seems to be an issue relating to how Lenovo has configured the systems. I can't find any evidence to suggest that Microsoft is trying to "lock" Signature Edition PCs to Windows 10, or making any moves to shut the door on Linux users" This seems to be about Lenovo's use of proprietary drivers for RAID, not MS system requirements. And a reminder that corporate tech support folks have no clue what they're talking about, so quoting a forum post by one does not establish insidious contractual obligations for Lenovo by Microsoft.

    1. Re:Lenovo is at fault, not MS (per the article) by Z00L00K · · Score: 4, Insightful

      But it should be possible to turn off that crap in BIOS/UEFI.

      --
      If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
  5. Which RAID level? by GerbilSoft · · Score: 5, Interesting
    From the ZDnet article:

    To improve system performance, Lenovo is leading an industry trend of adopting RAID on the SSDs in certain product configurations.

    Which RAID level works best with a single drive?

    1. Re:Which RAID level? by cdrudge · · Score: 3, Informative

      Depending on specific implementation, RAID 0 and RAID 1 (and JBOD) can happily run on a single disk. Obviously you don't get any advantages of multiple disks, the data is still striped or mirrored across all n drives in the array...there just happens to be 1 drive.

      Some feature implementations also require RAID setups to function. Intel's Smart Response Technology for instance requires the controller to operate in RAID mode for a SSD drive to be used as a cache for a HDD. The SSD would operate as a RAID-0 array of a single drive. See the note under step 4 in the Enabling Intel Smart Response Technology section.

  6. "Signature Edition" ironically pushes me to Macs by mykepredko · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I have been a big fan/proponent/promoter/user of Lenovo laptops for years. They're rugged and reliable and does what I need them for - I'm writing this on a T510 running Ubuntu 15.04

    But, Lenovo always seems to be on the wrong side of software issues. Whether it's malware, tracking or now Win10, I don't feel like their products can be trusted.

    To be fair, if I were to consider anybody else's Windows PCs now, I would probably reject them for the same reasons as Lenovo. Running Linux on the laptops in a dual boot mode is a requirement for me.

    So, what looks like the best solution for me is to eschew Windows laptops and go to Macs. I have a four year old Macbook Air that I've upgraded the hard drive on, dual booting and I can avoid the Microsoft bullshit for a bit of a premium over a Lenovo laptop, but as I tend to buy higher quality laptops, that premium isn't that high.

    Tower systems will continue to be custom builds with Windows 7 or Linux.

    Sorry Microsoft, Win10 just ain't in my future.

    --
    Mimetics Inc. Twitter
  7. Re:Call the BBB then return it. by LVSlushdat · · Score: 3, Interesting

    You want some action, get the FTC on the case.. FAR FAR better than the BBB....

    --
    THANK YOU, Edward Snowden!! Americans owe you a debt of gratitude (whether they know it or not..)
  8. Re:You Really Want To Go Down This Road MS?? by Palinchron · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Do you say this about your iPhone or your smart TV or your blueray player or your automobile?

    Damn right I do.

    There are also plenty of locked down models in the same market that do not let you modify firmware or certain settings.

    And it's HIGH time this became very illegal.

    --
    The lesson here is that a sufficiently large corporation is indistinguishable from government. --ultranova
  9. Signature Edition laptop runs linux fine ? by drnb · · Score: 4, Interesting

    An interesting reddit post:

    "[–]0xFFFFFF 89 points 7 hours ago*
    Levono is aware of the issue and fixing it: https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/L...
    It is on hackernews, where people are being rational and theorizing that this is not microsofts fault. More like best-buy rep doesn't know what he talks about and the SSD doesn't have support drivers in linux kernal.. Or lenova messed up their bios implementation.
    Luckily we have the reddit witchhunt in full force, so we can make uninformed rants!
    Note: Every single previous similar scenario about linux being locked out has not been microsofts fault, which is why people are sceptical that this is the case this time..
    I also have a Signature Edition laptop, it runs linux fine.."

  10. Lenovo dev team working on it by drnb · · Score: 5, Informative

    A reddit poster offered this, in his link Lenovo says the dev team is working on it:

    ""[–]0xFFFFFF 89 points 7 hours ago*
    Levono is aware of the issue and fixing it: https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/L...
    It is on hackernews, where people are being rational and theorizing that this is not microsofts fault. More like best-buy rep doesn't know what he talks about and the SSD doesn't have support drivers in linux kernal.. Or lenova messed up their bios implementation.
    Luckily we have the reddit witchhunt in full force, so we can make uninformed rants!
    Note: Every single previous similar scenario about linux being locked out has not been microsofts fault, which is why people are sceptical that this is the case this time..
    I also have a Signature Edition laptop, it runs linux fine..""
    https://www.reddit.com/r/linux...

    The Lenovo link has an official post saying:

    "Re: Yoga 900-13ISK2 - BIOS update for setting RAID mode for missing hard drive on linux install Options
    07-27-2016 10:04 AM
    Thank you for confirming it is still not possible to install Linux on Yoga 900-13ISK2 systems.
    This issue has been escalated to the Development team. I am unable to offer a timeframe for fix at this stage in the investigation. With previous cases, BIOS fixes have been delivered anywhere from several weeks to several months.
    I will post again when I have more information on the investigation."
    https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/L...

    1. Re:Lenovo dev team working on it by hey! · · Score: 3, Informative

      Manufacturers have a long history of semi-deliberately screwing up linux support on laptops.

      For example part of ACPI is a table in NVRAM called the Differentiated System Description Table; manufacturers put information in the DSDT that tell the operating system about devices that need switching on and off when going into various power states. One of the features of ACPI is that the DSDT can give different operating systems different instructions -- a feature I can think of no justification for, at least as far as the user's benefit is concerned.

      Some manufacturers (Toshiba) on some models simply detect the Linux case and turn off a bunch of stuff at boot time, like the sound card and the network cards. This is why I had to learn about that DSDT shit in the first place. The hardware is all supported by Linux, and if you boot with ACPI turned off they work flawlessly, but of course you have no power management. The fix is a dynamic replacement of DSDT and Linux boot time, which makes kernel upgrades a chore, but in principle the fix is simple: copy the stuff the manufacturer says to do under "Windows" and paste it into the "Linux" section. Then everything works perfectly, but the rigamarole is way beyond what the average user can tolerate, and it's purely the manufacturer being a prick to customers who want Linux.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
  11. Re:Call the BBB then return it. by rudy_wayne · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Scream from the highest rooftop. Get the BBB involved.

    You obviously don't understand how the BBB works. If you want to pursue a complaint, the BBB will offer arbitration, with the BBB as arbitrator. Since a business must pay a yearly fee to belong to the BBB you now have a situation where it's you against a business and the arbitrator has been paid by the business. How do suppose that's going to work out? I can tell you because I got ripped off by a local business for $500 and learned the hard way how the BBB really works.

  12. Re:You Really Want To Go Down This Road MS?? by Palinchron · · Score: 3, Informative

    I was talking about the more general case of locked-down phones, smart TVs, bluray players, and cars. I think that's currently legal in most of the world, but it shouldn't be.

    --
    The lesson here is that a sufficiently large corporation is indistinguishable from government. --ultranova
  13. Re:Cannot be turned off? by unixisc · · Score: 5, Funny

    Apparently, this Yoga ain't very flexible

  14. I buy quick all the time. Fewer issues than Window by raymorris · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I most often grab something quickly from Best Buy, Walmart, or Fry's. It would cost me money to delay.

    When one of our laptops dies, I'm paying someone to work, but they don't have a proper computer work on. Until we get them a new machine, they are stuck on whatever POS is in closet. It's probably in the closet because it's half broken.

    So I grab something that looks like it'll work from the closest store, boot it to be sure it's not completely defective, then run the Linux install script and they can get back to work. 95% of the time, that works fine.

    One time, Walmart was the quickest store, so I grabbed a laptop there, took it back to the office, and booted it. Wifi didn't work. Windows said it didn't have the driver for the wifi card. The web site of the laptop manufacturer didn't have a wifi driver for that version of Windows. I tried the manufactuer of the wireless card - no driver for that version of Windows. Windows Update? Nope, probably a million of that laptop sold at Walmart, with a wifi card that does not work with the preloaded Windows. Well that's stupid. Screw it, we use wired ethernet anyway. I pop in a CentOS install disk and 30 minutes later she's up and running - with wifi. CentOS included a driver that "just works"; apparently no driver existed for the preloaded, current version of Windows.

  15. Re:MS Hates Linux by Shoten · · Score: 5, Interesting

    It's competition and Microsoft would never openly say they love Linux even if they've made use of it for their datacenters.

    That being said, I doubt Microsoft feels they need to shutdown the 1% of users that insist on Linux. There's definitively more to this story.

    That's kind of what I was thinking.

    The OP seems to be much like "Microsoft comes up with devious plan to make it impossible to install Linux" when the truth may be "Microsoft's Signature program involves keeping users from breaking RAID settings, but the new settings aren't supported by Linux yet."

    --

    For your security, this post has been encrypted with ROT-13, twice.
  16. Re:MS Hates Linux by Dr_Barnowl · · Score: 5, Interesting

    On desktop - 1.5%

    Amongst developers - 20%

    Of course, developers are a very influential set. If, for example, a developer writes an app using Electron because it works well on both Linux AND Windows... it works well on Linux. And software that works well on Linux makes it an attractive platform.

    MS knows the best way to keep useful software exclusively on their platform is to get developers hooked on their toolchain.

  17. I've been sayin it for ten damn years by WaffleMonster · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Good God.. I've been sayin it. I've been sayin it for ten damn years. Ain't I been sayin it? Miguel.. Yeah, I've been sayin it.

    Who releases a computer that won't run AHCI? From accounts of people who have looked into the BIOS .. AHCI is there but *intentionally* restricted from being enabled by customers. The people who did this knew exactly what this meant when they did it and what consequences of doing it would be yet they went ahead with it anyway.

  18. Re: One OS to Rule Them All by Billly+Gates · · Score: 4, Insightful

    But this is slashdot. It all is a vast conspiracy and MS and Windows have not changed in 20 years

    --
    http://saveie6.com/
  19. Can I use the Sherman Antitrust to drop ESPN by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Can I use the Sherman Antitrust to drop ESPN with out dropping all the channels

  20. Re:MS Hates Linux by mspohr · · Score: 4, Informative

    Except Chromebooks are taking over. They run Linux at the core.
    (You can even easily install Linux using Crouton if you need programming, command line, Linux software, etc. It's fast since it uses the same Linux core. It runs ChromeOS and Linux side by side in a chroot environment. You can switch from one to the other with a simple hotkey command.)
    Hard for Microsoft to block Chromebooks.

    --
    I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
  21. Re: Cannot be turned off? by epyT-R · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Why are you siding with Microsoft and/or the vendors for this? Sure, they have a right to sell it however they like, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be criticized for it. The one thing that the PC has over other platforms is its open endedness.. These products deserve criticism for even getting the ball rolling to change that. The last thing I'd want is for the PC market to be more like cellphones.

  22. Perhaps Intel is to blame? by Tranzistors · · Score: 3, Informative

    Matthew Garrett wore informative article on this one: http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/44...

  23. Re:MS Hates Linux by presidenteloco · · Score: 5, Insightful

    GNU-Linux Evaluation

    [Excellent] Stable platform for long-running server applications
    [Excellent] Software development tool chains
    [Excellent] FOSS software availability and variety
    [Excellent] Support communities for FOSS software
    [Excellent] Stable, smallish-footprint OS kernel + core services + APIs on which to build mobile device OS services and GUI
    [Fail] Simple, Uniform, Highly Functional, Good UX GUI for desktop/laptop computing and entertainment hub
    [Fail] Best-of-breed desktop productivity applications for everyday business and home computer users

    --

    Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?