Slashdot Mirror
Can Learning Smalltalk Make You A Better Programmer?
Slashdot reader horrido shares an article that "has done more for Smalltalk advocacy than any other article in memory." It was the second-most popular article of the year on the Hewlett Packard Enterprise site TechBeacon (recently passing 20,000 views), with Richard Eng, the founder of the nonprofit Smalltalk Renaissance, arguing that the 44-year-old language is much more than a tool for teachers -- and not just because Amber Smalltalk transpiles to JavaScript for front-end web programming.
It's a superlative prototyping language for startups. It's an industrial-strength enterprise language used by businesses both big and small all around the globe... Smalltalk's implementation of the object-oriented paradigm is so excellent that it has influenced an entire generation of OO languages, such as Objective-C, Python, Ruby, CLOS, PHP 5, Perl 6, Erlang, Groovy, Scala, Dart, Swift, and so on. By learning Smalltalk, you'll understand how all of those useful features in today's OO languages came to be.
The article also argues that Smalltalk pioneered just-in-time compilation and virtual machines, the model-view-controller design paradigm, and to a large extent, even test-driven development. But most importantly, Smalltalk's reliance on domain-specific languages makes it "the 'purest' OO, and one of the earliest... It is often said that programming in Smalltalk or Python is rather like Zen; your mind just flows effortlessly with the task. This is the beauty and value of language simplicity, and Smalltalk has this in spades... Smalltalk, by virtue of its object purity and consistency, will give you a profoundly better understanding of object-oriented programming and how to use it to its best effect."
The article also argues that Smalltalk pioneered just-in-time compilation and virtual machines, the model-view-controller design paradigm, and to a large extent, even test-driven development. But most importantly, Smalltalk's reliance on domain-specific languages makes it "the 'purest' OO, and one of the earliest... It is often said that programming in Smalltalk or Python is rather like Zen; your mind just flows effortlessly with the task. This is the beauty and value of language simplicity, and Smalltalk has this in spades... Smalltalk, by virtue of its object purity and consistency, will give you a profoundly better understanding of object-oriented programming and how to use it to its best effect."
This site is becoming complete garbage. Thanks a bunch EditorDavid.
- Yes, Slashdot needs money!
- No, the editors are just awful!
- Insert CowboyNeal reference
Smalltalk, Forth, LISP, and FORTRAN.
on how far down the rope you want to go
if you want to learn the core original idea's of modern programming as some academic / archaeological adventure, yes small talk has a lot to offer as its a very influential language
if you think you are going to magically going to get 100x better at C# or java just by reading some generic summaries of how it works, then no you will not benifit in any such way ... cause the best of such an old language has already been extracted and implemented decades before hand and you already us it
I don't know of anyone that has been turned down from a customer facing job for being too multilingual.
You want me to program in PHP? Fine. Python3? Fine. Python2? Fine. C, C++, Perl, MATLAB, R, COBOL, FORTRAN, etc. Fine.
There are working tools written in all of the above languages. Most managers that value their budget aren't going to say "Eh, lets rewrite that COBOL program in Python 3".
Is this as bad an idea as it sounds to me? You write something in smalltalk and then you start over and start writing it in some language you actually plan to ship a product in? I realize there's a thing called prototype-based programming, but from the language I assumed that this wasn't what they were talking about.
I'm not actually much of a programmer, which is why I'm asking :p
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
And remember to learn German (or French, etc for those who are native German speakers) because that would be extremely worthwhile to know.
Smalltalk was an amazing language for the 1970's and 1980's. But pretty much all of its features have been incorporated into other languages, so learning Smalltalk won't give you amazing new insights if you know or learn languages like Python or JavaScript.
Having said that, Smalltalk is fun to play around with. Fortunately, there are several excellent, faithful, and free Smalltalk implementations, including Squeak and Pharo. Just download them and play with them. Smalltalk is simple enough and similar enough to other languages that it shouldn't take you long to pick up.
C is probably the programming language that will make you a better programmer. Pretty much every other programming derived from C in one form or another. If you want to get under the hood of language, it's probably C anyway.
I was surprised, maybe shocked, by how much Smalltalk has contributed to the world[1], how far we have deviated from it[2], and how slowly we are converging to it again[3].
[1] object oriented programming, virtual machine, just-in-time compilation, test-driven development, Model-View-Controller design pattern, object databases
[2] inventing problems by trying to coerce static typed programming languages to behave like dynamic ones (Java, Go, et cetera, I'm looking at you)
[3] by slowly incorporating Smalltalk features into current popular programming languages. Ruby for instance is heavily based on Smalltalk.
The best way to predict the future is to invent it
Rational's RequisitePro is written in Smalltalk.
... upon how poor of a programmer you were previously.
Most people's exposure to OOP is like their exposure to math. Badly done, and causes them to break out in a sweat every time they have to face it.
The whole thing sounds and feels great, until you realize that thousands of two and three line methods and no methods larger then 20 lines is not that great.
Plus the tools, like for example, editors, grep, etc. all have to be written from scratch thus lag behind common tools. Though other languages are ( stupidly ) going the same way.
Something like RUby which draws a lot of ideas from Smalltalk works better.
While Smalltalk clearly has plenty of influences in later languages, from everything I've ever heard or read, the language to learn is LISP--not Smalltalk. I've heard countless stories of people saying it retrains your brain and opens your eyes to new ways of solving problems and that "It's the best language to learn that you'll never actually use." (Because it helps in your normal life.)
It's like learning Latin in school, to help you appreciate English.
My career started in Smalltalk in the 90s but then, thanks to a lack of job opportunities, I spent the next decade coding in Delphi, C, C++, etc. It was a shame, because I really loved coding in Smalltalk, whereas other using languages was purely to earn a living.
I've no regrets. Smalltalk gave me a grounding in OO concepts,TDD and patterns before they became de rigueur and gave me an edge when people coming from more traditional languages were struggling with the new ideas.
But honestly, everything I enjoyed in Smalltalk is available in modern languages. I've spent the better part of the last ten years earning a living coding in Ruby - and enjoying it. Going back to Smalltalk would feel retrograde.
If I were a young coder starting out today I'd be looking at languages that introduce new concepts, not stepping back in time.
So...what are they selling? A philosophy?
Smalltalk is a horrible language that uses punctuation for syntax, and a "program image snapshot" style runtime. It should be interred and left to rot for either of those reasons.
Smalltalk is bad enough that it inspired the development of several other languages to get the taste of it out of people's mouths.
It claimed a number of contributions, which were literally all in use in other software, often for decades. It was hard to get right, the frameworks were crappy and most of the adherents smelled bad. They still do.
HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa ...
HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa
ow
I started off with Turbo Pascal 3-4 back in the 80's (had OO before anything else back then) then moved to Smalltalk. It was a true mindfuck at first, wasn't able to do the simplest of tasks. Where are the files? How do I get a library for X? !@#$ But eventually the fog lifted and I got productive. It was still hard to explain its virtues to everyone else and deployments were a challenge (VM? what?) but then Java came along and I moved to that in 97. Most of my contemporaries doing the same were coming from C/C++ and their experiences adapting to that were hilarious compared to what I was experiencing. In short I was the quitessential nickel-get-yourself-a-new language neckbeard, disgusted with the compromises made to entice the C community: lame syntax, files, primitive types, overstrong types, etc. Still bringing home the bacon with Java but its been painful having to watch the industry reinvent all the same core concepts over the last 20 years. Its not surprising that the GoF came from the Smalltalk community, the language effectively voids all the useless baggage that comes with other languages, forcing you to confront and identify all the core concepts in your problem domain.
One of the most interesting things I've been seeing is being able to identify the mental origins of developers who've drunk the Smalltalk Kool-Aid so long ago, it shows up clearly in their designs. All domain concepts as first class objects, no data-only structs, effective pattern use, quality name choices, tight and effective hierarchies but most of all semantic clarity. You can only beat junior devs on the head for so long in code reviews to have them put these things into practice before you realize that they're coming from a wholly different perspective. As we move into a post-OO world with functional programming I can imagine the Haskel et al folks gritting their teeth in the same manner.
I don't like most people, so I avoid conversation, including smalltalk.
Learning *ANY* programming language can make someone a better programmer... offer them a new way of looking at how to solve certain types of problems and innovate new and elegant solutions that hadn't occurred to them previously as they learn the idioms of a new programming language.
But like any other programming language, learning it will *NOT* necessarily make you a better programmer, and there's certainly not anything unique to Smalltalk that might make becoming a better programmer after learning it especially likely.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
Its too bad the money men at Xerox at the time (who mostly came from places like Ford and didn't know the first thing about computers or technology) didn't realize just what they had with the Alto, Ethernet, Laser Printer, Smalltalk etc and actually allow the PARC guys to get it out of the lab and into the real world much earlier than they eventually did...
Though I came to Smalltalk after C++, there is no doubt it informs why all things OO are the way they are. However, who has the time to attain this insight? I programmed in C for three years before learning C++ in the early '90s and there is no doubt that my knowledge of C makes many design decisions behind C++ clear (e.g., how many "young" C++ programmers actually know why the designers of C++ foisted the Rule of three onto the language). But I was too busy keeping up with endlessly changing technologies to learn, say, BCPL, to better understand the design decisions behind C.
Run forward, nascent programmers! Your knowledge of (choose your modern language) today will inform the design behind the language you learn ten years from now.
Having developed applications in Smalltalk I can say it had some major failings too. Serious development absolutely required Envy Developer otherwise it was impossible to deploy into a team environment (there are no files to share).
It also was nearly impossible to deploy standalone applications. You had to strip out the development environment, and other objects not necessary for production. Take out too much and sometime later you get a "not implemented" error.
All of its deficiencies could have been fixed eventually but very few companies outside of educational incubators really bothered. The Smalltalk industry was rife with overpaid contractors.
Maybe not, but some smalltalk might get you laid. Get to it geeks!
Whoa man that is soo out of date and uncool in any Silicon Valley coffee shop man.
Put Outlaw Techno Psycho itch on your laptop baby and watch the chicks and groupies sit and watch you code. Erlang is now cool and hip like what rails did to Ruby
http://saveie6.com/
Will Alcohol, LSD, or Caffeine make you a better programmer ?
Can Learning Smalltalk Make You A Better Programmer?
No, but it might get you a job in management.
badumdum... It's the new year folks, still more jokes to come.
You can also become a better programmer by learning Lisp, Prolog, and various assemblers. The more you can free yourself from a particular language's mindset, the better.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
... no.
I can tell you from experience, no, no it can't.
I could write code already reasonably well in m68k assembler, x86 assembler, c, c++, c#, java etc. and it brought me nothing to build upon my prior knowledge. No new concepts, nothing.
Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
Sure, Smalltalk is a great language to know.. if only to understand some of CS history. But it is a horrendous technology to use today, or for the past 10 years. I speak from experience. I've worked with Java and Smalltalk as a professional, and the Smalltalk experience pales into insignificance. The tools just haven't kept up with the crazy pace of technological evolution. The Smalltalk "IDE" I had to use professionally was Cincom's. I couldn't believe how primitive, clunky and programmer-hostile that system was (if you've ever spent a few years with any Java IDE). Since working professionally with Smalltalk, I've also kept an eye on the marketplace for the skill.. in Belgium (which is a small sample, I agree), the demand is very, very close to non-existent. I only know of two companies that still cling on to it, against all rational arguments.
Well, I guess that is it. Go learn assembler.
Yeah, a language with dynamic typing. Enjoy debugging also your type errors. As if we do not already have enough errors in our programs.
If you have to bury the question, we all know the answer.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
has lost all credibility as a 'good' company.
The printer/nk cartridge plan is a negative aspect of their reputation.... assholes.
The restructuring a few years ago has removed the last of the great hardware people with vision and finesse.
The management is full of mediocrity.
Where did all the HP calculator people go? They used to be good....
And I have a printer that self-destructed with 'Genuine HP Ink Cartridges".
An incredibly over hyped technique.
When it comes down it, everything ends up as ones and zeros with an instruction pointer. Programming languages have one goal - to make it easier to program and make programmers more productive. Why is Apple pushing Swift (Java,C# clone)? Because there's a lot more Java and C# programmers in the World and Objective C is a kluge (like C++) to make C OOP.
Python is another example to make programming easier and faster.
...limbs?
Easy with the hype :).
SmallTalk is cool - and for its time it was incredible really - but it has warts that have held it back forever (including the stupidify of the major players in the market.)
For example - algebraic precedence. When 5 + 5 * 5 = 50 - you're going to have problems with adoption.
In any case - it's a nice shiny hammer. You should have it next to all your other hammers in the toolbox.
Loading...
Object purity? You don't go to the chaste to learn about great sex.
How long have you lived in this city? Do you have any hobbies?
Yes, small talk can help you get ahead in your career. They say networking is a good thing.
The smalltalk language? Maybe, but who cares?
Why would it be a "bad idea"? Other fields see prototypes and models as an essential part of what they do, and yet in programming it's "get it right the first time" and ship that.
The important thing is to be multi-lingual. There's no special benefit to learning a specific pet language.
In spoken language, learning Latin is very educational, and helps a person understand the roots of our own language. But you can get arguable more benefit by learning a Latin-derived language like Spanish, which you can actually use in conversation with people who speak it.
No.
I wonder how much of that problem was caused by "everything is a file" which even extends to source control systems. Image based languages can have "history" as well.
If you're trying to get us to socialize you can forget it!
~ People that think they are better than anyone else for any reason are the cause of all the strife in the world.
Smalltalk "Object-Oriented" versus C++ "Object-Oriented" versus golang types versus other languages?
It's not that simple a question really.
We all use some programming languages and related grammar mechanisms to get some sense of a solution delivered.
Smalltalk may be valid as an OO language, but I recall why I did not adopt it as my primary tool when it was first introduced.
Crazy expensive!!! Software price to acquire it was more exclusive than other offerings.
GUI apis within the ide were text-based not Windows-based which wasn't impressive compared to existing X-Window/Unix offerings with C/C++ at the time. Documentation for it was a well-kept secret behind a paywall so there wasn't any motivation for anyone to learn it even if they didn't have the means to acquire it.
GNU smalltalk only appeared much later, but no killer open-source apps surfaced that used it and smalltalk didn't attract other developers to consider using by being inspired by example source code. Not enough useful sample source code out in the wild as open-source.
As an example of a killer open-source app with a great influence for developers to flock to it: bittorrent which uses python and gtk for the gui api.
As another example of another killer open-source app with a great influence for developers to flock to it: docker which uses golang(Google Go) and virtual machine & virtualization apis. golang is my go-to programming language to get things done these days. I prefer it over c++ or java every day of the week. golang lacks UML round-trip tools found in c++ and java, but developers are still flocking to it for certain niche purposes at the moment, but eventually the depth and breadth of the golang offerings will match everything found in c++/java.
Ultimately, if a proposed programming language tool isn't open-source and free and run on every piece of existing hardware by default, it will never fly and SMALLTALK did not fly. It crashed and burned.
The continuous evolution of the Image such that it lost the ability to be recreated from scratch is a failing that the Pharo guys are working hard to fix with a bootstrapping CI infrastructure... http://rmod.inria.fr/archives/...
It is often said that programming in Smalltalk or Python is rather like Zen; your mind just flows effortlessly with the task
What? They are entirely different from one another.
That is also pretty much the baseline of proficiency for every language, including assembly.
Apple, Intel, Microsoft, 3com, Novell, Borland, and Xerox all in one...
They could have been either the IBM successor, or the Google replacement for today.
being an intellectual makes you a better programmer. also keyboard skills... not your ego.
Blockchains might help. Now there's one deficiency Smalltalk had compare to some other languages. A good GUI library. LISP has the same issue. Oh, and last good educational material, from tutorials, to books, and even documentation although I think all languages suffer that to various degrees.
Information hiding as a way of dealing with complexity is an important part of OOPs. Bundling is an organizational tool and helps with complexity as well.
true, but OO is more than that.
The best way to predict the future is to invent it
No, No, No. Smalltalk was interesting waaay back when (so was Ada), but now the concepts discovered (Design Patterns) UTTERLY corrupt the industry to be incompetent. So many companies interview based upon your "OOD" skills (been there, interviewed by Dumb-Asses-only-interested-in "Design Patterns" without any knowledge of what/why/specifics of the Gang-of-Four book). Have I used Smalltalk? No. I've NEVER met, let alone interviewed someone whom has. A truly dead language. And I've professionally had to understand and/or write code in a number of "dead" languages: PL/I, Fortran77, COBOL, Pascal, Modula2.
That is, Smalltalk is an academic note at best, and NOTHING more.
But it is probably more useful/interesting than Rust/R/Clojure/various-other-'modern'-interpreted-languages
Been there, had to debug them.
Lambda functions are an interesting concept but are utterly counter-productive in practice.
- they significantly obfuscate the source code
- the purpose appears to be to use-the-language-feature-because-it-is-there. (Fum-Ducks do this)
Competent coding entails/requires that code be non-obfuscated and easily understandable by a Junior/N00b programmer. Lambdas are frequently neither. (Based upon trying to debug broken Lambdas)
You are exactly right. This is why MIT licensed Pharo Smalltalk is steadily gaining traction. Its still a small community, but vibrant. Here are a few examples... http://pharo.org/success A consortium is putting real money on the table to support paid engineering for those important tasks that sometimes don't get done with the "scratch you own itch" open source philosophy. http://consortium.pharo.org/
If operator precedence is the only "wart" you can mention that stops you from using Smalltalk then you can't really speak about Smalltalk with authority.
FYI, there are no operators. Just messages sent to receivers. Is your mind blowing yet? No?
There are neither conditional statements nor control structures in the *language* yet Smalltalk programmers use them all the time. How is that possible? Non-sense? Mind blowing yet?
The best way to predict the future is to invent it
I guess you missed the "for example." Rather than talk about the differences between 72, 80, and the various flavors along the way and their shortcomings - I pointed out something small but important that counters the silly article's "SmallTalk is the magic bullet!" voice.
I still think SmallTalk is cool, and in 85 it was SERIOUSLY cool (image based persistence? Awesome...) Like all other languages - it has issues.
Loading...
Nope - not LISP (though you damn well should be able to write simple LISP if you understand recursion and stacks at all). Learn to write in ML and your mind opens to the truth of the problems before us.
A hiring manager for a Java position once asked me in the interview if I knew Smalltalk. I said no. He said "Good, if you did, then I wouldn't hire you." He said that Smalltalk requires a strange way of thinking that would make you a bad developer.
I experimented with Smalltalk for an accounting system mid 90's. It was way too slow on the Token Ring network. We wrote off ~$40,000.
Thanks for the link to Amber Smalltalk! I didn't know this one. It's good to hear there's something going on with client side Smalltalk.
Learning any programming language will make you a better programmer.
Is Smalltalk the most efficient option? I am not sure.