Richard Stallman Acknowledges Libreboot Is No Longer A Part of GNU (gnu.org)

Libreboot became an official GNU project in May. Now an anonymous Slashdot reader writes: Richard Stallman has officially announced that Libreboot is no longer a GNU package. The maintainer of Libreboot had tried to leave the GNU project in September 2016, but the departure was not acknowledged until January 2017. Libreboot is a replacement for proprietary BIOS systems, effectively a distribution of coreboot without any binary blobs and adding an automated build/install process.
In the post titled "Goodbye to GNU Libreboot," Stallman wrote that "When a package's maintainer steps down, that doesn't by itself break the relationship between GNU and the package. If it is left without a maintainer but is still useful, the GNU Project will usually look for new maintainers to work on it. However, we can instead drop ties with the package, if that seems the right thing to do.

"A few months ago, the maintainer of GNU Libreboot decided not to work on Libreboot for the GNU Project any more. That was her decision to make. She also asserted that Libreboot was no longer a GNU package -- something she could not unilaterally do. The GNU Project had to decide what to do in regard to Libreboot. We have decided to go along with the former GNU maintainer's wishes in this case, for a combination of reasons: (1) it had not been a GNU package for very long, (2) she was the developer who had originally made it a GNU package, and (3) there were no major developers who wanted to continue developing Libreboot under GNU auspices."

Comments

How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[eionmac]

If not in GNU system, would the maintainer please advise where they have lodged the source code for download.

Re:How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[Selur]

https://libreboot.org/ -> points to https://notabug.org/vimuser/li... for the source code,...

Re:How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[Anonymous Coward]

Um - https://libreboot.org/

Also there is more information as to why libreboot left the GNU. From their site - 'Libreboot left GNU on 2016-09-15, in protest of transgender discrimination at the FSF'.

Re:How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[mlyle]

Update: It seems this is why Libreboot's maintainers were not pleased with GNU: https://libreboot.org/gnu/

Re:How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[Anonymous Coward]

Um - https://libreboot.org/

Also there is more information as to why libreboot left the GNU. From their site - 'Libreboot left GNU on 2016-09-15, in protest of transgender discrimination at the FSF'.

Not surprising.

FSF is pretty close-minded - "my way is always right!"

It even includes technical issues, too. Glibc fork() is not async-signal-safe per POSIX? Even though BSD and Solaris and AIX have no problem making fork() asynch-signal-safe, GNU folks go with "WONTFIX" and try to lobby to water down the POSIX standard because it sets too high a bar for them.

Re:How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[0100010001010011]

Whee Gender Politics has reached the FSF/GNU.

https://www.reddit.com/r/linux...

https://www.reddit.com/r/Kotak...

Re:How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[allo]

Stallman stated, that there was absolutely no reason concerning the gender/sexuality/sex/whatever but some internal reason he doesn't want to disclose to protect the innocent. There is a thread on the mailinglist.
It's hard to say without knowing the internals, but it looks a bit like someone was fired for $reasons and then tried to reframe it as discrimination.

Re:How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[_KiTA_]

Um - https://libreboot.org/

Also there is more information as to why libreboot left the GNU. From their site - 'Libreboot left GNU on 2016-09-15, in protest of transgender discrimination at the FSF'.

Having read it... That's... an interesting interpretation of events. You'll note the complete lack of evidence in it? That's important.

Here's what actually happened, based on what evidence I could find. Leah Woods is a SJW who had a fit because of some made up bullshit that boils down, like all made up SJW bullshit, to "Open Source is a meritocracy, but we still want special treatment."

Here's a well sourced discussion on it on Kotaku In Action, the GamerGate reddit board:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Kotak...

And some discussion over on reddit's linux board:
https://www.reddit.com/r/linux...

Basically, Leah Rowe had a fit because the FSF parted ways with a transgendered employee.

Leah makes the unfounded claim that the FSF did this because the person has a mental illness (gender dysphoria / gender identity disorder), because someone wrote criticism of said person with mental illness which looked bad on the FSF, etc. She provides no evidence of these VERY specific claims.
http://archive.is/iXIbc

The FSF make a statement on 9/16 pointing out that they have a strong anti-harassment and anti-discrimination policies, as well as a so called "safe space policy" at FSF events. In other words, they have already capitulated to all the standard Regressive Leftist demands. They deny the accusation and say the person with mental illness was terminated for other reasons.
https://archive.is/HGLMa

Leah specifically follows up this claim here, changing her claim to a different claim that two FSF employees were "transphobic" and "bullying" this mentally ill developer. She namedrops these two people, but refuses to namedrop the supposed victim, believing they deserve protection from any criticism or questioning of these claims. Note that this apparently does not apply to the two men she is accusing without any form of evidence of unprofessional and possibly illegal behavior.
https://archive.is/7cXtw#selec...

She follows this up with more increasingly unhinged spam and unfounded accusations. She ignores, bans, or curses out people requesting evidence or disputing her one woman lynch mob. She posts an unhinged screed on her website showing she has little to no understanding of open source, all while repeating the same unfounded claims, as well as claiming martyrdom on her part.
https://archive.is/JmiTG

It's important to note that libreroot is a fork of Coreboot and being part of the GNU project means it was posted under an open source license. Which means someone could easily fork it again and put it BACK in the GNU project. Of course, proving she doesn't understand the first thing about open source, she specifically wants people NOT to do that. I suggest the name cisLibreBoot, because it seems the most amusing name possible.

Fortunately, the GNU mailing list appears to basically shut her histrionics down fairly quickly:
http://archive.is/di974

In addition, it's important to realize the unhinged professional victimhood martyrdom ravings of Leah Rowe, which are REMARKABLY similar to other social justice activists such as Brianna Wu or Nora Reed, don't actually represent the Libreroot community. See, it turns out, what she did was steal access to the main repository and lock out everyone else, all while making her unhinged, evidence-free stat

Re:How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[Dutch Gun]

The FSF made a blanket statement denying the accusation, but I haven't seen anything more than that. So... that's all we have to go on. If this were a giant corporation everyone hated, like Comcast, would people be so equally quick to simply take a company's terse press release as proof of their innocence? Did they actually do any sort of serious internal investigation? They don't even say. Forgive me I'm a bit skeptical.

Then again, I have no idea who Leah Rowe is, or what kind of person she is. Maybe she's unstable or a liar, and just makes things up. Maybe she's telling the truth. Or maybe her perspective and mentality differs so much from the others at the FSF that the same facts are interpreted in completely opposite ways.

How do you tell who's telling the truth in this literal "he said / she said"? I certainly can't.

Re:How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[_KiTA_]

You calling a transgendered person "mentally ill" sounds no different than the bigots who called homosexuals "mentally ill"
How is your bigotry any more justified than theirs, bigot?

I'm not calling transgendered people mentally ill. I'm saying Gender Dysphoria is a mental illness.

http://www.ifge.org/302.85_Gen...
http://www.theravive.com/thera...
http://dsm.psychiatryonline.or...
https://www.psychiatry.org/pat...

And I'm right. Sorry, but it's true.

Now, since being Transgender requires Gender Dysphoria -- so called Tumbrina "TransTrenders" aren't transgender, they're attention seeking children -- it's an unpopular, but correct, statement to say that they are people with a mental illness receiving treatment.

Fortunately for me, an "unpopular" opinion is not bigotry, no matter what the authoritarian regressive post-modernists that have taken over the left in the west think.

Re:How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[Anonymous Coward]

> You calling a transgendered person "mentally ill" sounds no different than the bigots who called homosexuals "mentally ill"...

The _fact_ that gender dysphoria is a medical condition is what causes insurance companies to cover gender reassignment surgeries and the associated procedures. Gender dysphoria is a _real_ _medical_ condition that is treated and treated _effectively_ by gender reassignment surgeries, hormone replacement, & etc.

Gender dysphoria is no less real than schizophrenia or the various flavors of psychotic depression (this is depression, plus delusions like "Every living thing in the world is full of maggots, myself included, and thus I am sad." or "I am already dead. I am literally a walking cadaver. I can literally see and smell my body decay, and -thus- I am sad and I require no food, as I am already dead."). There are treatments that vary in effectiveness from _completely_ to _reasonable_ for these medical conditions.

One is _terribly_ off the mark if one is calling another a bigot for mentioning that a medical condition that has _widely_ recognized and _effective_ treatments that the patients are happy with is -you know- a medical condition.

As a side note: interestingly enough, unlike gender dysphoria, body dysmorphia (the feeling that a part of your body is _wrong, wrong, WRONG, WRONG!, WRONG!!!_) is _not_ responsive to surgical intervention! Either the patient is _unshakably_ convinced that the surgery was botched, and the part is still WRONG, or the feelings of WRONGness are transferred to another part of the body.

Re:How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[squiggleslash]

At this point the entire thing is dubious - very vague allegations against the FSF that the FSF denies, coupled with an over broad attack on the organization that's difficult to judge.

Something happened, that much is clear, and it got back to Ms Rowe in some form that made her extremely angry. But without more information, and at least some objective facts that are verifiable, it's not easy to determine how to solve the problem.

The FSF isn't Comcast, the FSF is, to a certain extent, us. We contribute in our own small ways as developers or even as users to the ecosystem whose seed it nurtured and grew. As such, Rowe's actions, based upon her apparent anger, are understandable but not really a template for the rest of us. If there's a problem, the solution will come from discussing it and reforming to fix them. Unfortunately that discussion isn't happening.

Re:How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[Anonymous Coward]

It used to be, until members of the psychological/psychiatric profession were badgered into redefining the illness as being not an illness.

That of course leads us to the greater question of, "What is a mental illness, anyway? And why?". If people can be functional in society, ought we define something as an illness? Maybe, maybe not.

And how far must we go to accommodate someone's "idiosyncracies" before we ourselves are the ones who are mad?

Re:How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not calling transgendered people mentally ill.

Now, since being Transgender requires Gender Dysphoria -- so called Tumbrina "TransTrenders" aren't transgender, they're attention seeking children -- it's an unpopular, but correct, statement to say that they are people with a mental illness receiving treatment.

So...which is it?

Fortunately for me, an "unpopular" opinion is not bigotry, no matter what the authoritarian regressive post-modernists that have taken over the left in the west think.

Or it just means you're misinterpreting the disorder and blanket-applying it to all transgendered because you're now defending your bigoted views with semantic arguments.

From the DSM-5, used for diagnosis and classifications:

It is important to note that gender nonconformity is not in itself a mental disorder. The critical element of gender dysphoria is the presence of clinically significant distress associated with the condition.

But do go on about your willingness to martyr yourself to the public court by posting unpopular opinions. Let's not let facts get in the way of your sacrifice.

Re:How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[Dutch Gun]

Still, keep in mind that the FSF is two things: it's a legal non-profit organization with board members and a handful of paid employees, as well as a broader community of volunteers, enthusiasts, and supporters. While the latter is the organization that most people are affiliated with, the former means they still have the same legal obligations and responsibility as any other corporate employer.

That being the case, though, you make an interesting point, albeit indirectly:

Something happened, that much is clear, and it got back to Ms Rowe in some form that made her extremely angry.

Whatever happened here, Ms Rowe is not a first-hand witness to these accounts any more than we are. That doesn't automatically discredit the story, but doesn't do anything to actually confirm it either, unless we actually hear from one of those people themselves.

Bleh. Like you said, dubious. Apparently, the involved parties or first-hand witnesses have collectively decided to clam up / move on, so there's not much else for us to do either.

Re:How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[sjames]

They're kinda stuck. If they lay out their actual reasons for termination, they open themselves to a big lawsuit for privacy violation.

Re:How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[_KiTA_]

"Gender Dysphoria" is not a mental illness. Unless being gay is a mental illness too, which I guess it is by your definition...

Wrong on both counts. It is classified as a mental illness so that insurance companies pay out on gender reassignment surgery, the same cannot be said for homosexuality. I'm afraid you can't just say "I want the money but without the negative connotation".

That is, ultimately, what this is about. They want Gender Dysphoria to be in some sort of weird quantum state of illness and identity, where they can pick either one based on what is most beneficial to them at any given time.

Want to pick and choose what treatment you get? Then it's identity, and you don't "need" dysphoria to have it.

Want to get a shared insurance fund to pay for your SRS and Transitioning? Then it's a mental illness and coverage is required by law.

It's a form of the Motte and Bailey post-modernist fallacy, the same one that brings us "crybullying" -- aka, "I'm so oppressed that I'm going to ruin your life for upsetting me."

Re:How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[rubypossum]

It's really an endocrine disorder brought about by a birth defect that can be partially surgically corrected. Opinionated assholes on either side don't contribute in any way to ease the suffering in the world. Giving trans-people treatment has been unilaterally found to save lives. Who cares about labels when people's lives are at stake.

Re:How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[serviscope_minor]

Hmm Let's see:

* Kotaku in action
* Reddit
* SJW
* histrionics
* Brianna Wu
* Bullying

I call Bingo!!

What do I win?

Re:How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[DarkOx]

"gender nonconformity" is a little girl who like to play with toy firetrucks, or a teenage boy who wants to be on the cheer squad, or college women that want to play football. There nothing wrong with any of those things.

There is something wrong when it moves from "i like doing things more typically associated with the other gender" to "I think I really am a..." and there is no present chromosomal abnormality. What could be more distressing than thinking you are in the wrong body, and being willing to take all sorts of hormones and other treatments that have down right nasty side effects is solid proof of that distress nobody would do that unless they thought they *needed* it. Given the need is imagined in all but the most unusual cases yes they have a disorder, even by DSM language.

DSM by the way seems to subject to a lot of political pressure and moods of the day. DSM4 had very different language on gay and transgender issues and there has been little in the way of advances in physical science on the issue since that was published.

   

Re:How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[silentcoder]

Except that the supposed discrimination never happened. The trans women was hired, as an out trans person, worked there a few years and was let go - as happens at times.
The libreboot person decided she was let go because of her gender (she never claimed to think it had played a role) the FSF said her gender played no role and she was let go simply because the job she was doing had become redundant. Sad but true.

So there is no evidence that there ever *was* any trans discrimination - on the contrary, they were happy to hire a transwomen, knowing she was trans and employed her for a very long time.

Re:How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[Cederic]

I believe treatment for transvestites is access to clothing of the relevant gender and some privacy.

'trans' is ambiguous; it could be any transgender condition, ranging from transvestite (basically a paraphilic fetishism) to transsexual (gender dimorphism) and including a complex set of varied conditions in-between.

I'm not sure I'd use the term 'cured' to describe a post-op transsexual. They may well be more comfortable with their revised body but my experience is that they continue to struggle with a range of challenges - and the suicide rate amongst post-op transsexuals suggests that there are serious issues amongst a non-trivial subset.

There is more to this story...

[Razed By TV]

Something about this summary struck me as strange.

It seems Leah created a project, joined with GNU, then decided to separate from the GNU, and Stallman is talking as if Leah can't go back to her original project. Is that normal? It seems borderline abusive to me.
"Oh, you want to leave? Well, I'm going to make sure I tell everyone publicly that you have my permission, because I am the one in power, and you are lucky that I am letting you go."

Leah's reason for the split was because of discrimination that occurred at Free Software Foundation, GNU's main funding source. I'm not very familiar with the situation, but at the very least, here are links for another side of the story:
https://libreboot.org/gnu/
https://libreboot.org/gnu-insu...

Re:There is more to this story...

[AmiMoJo]

Since Libreboot is free software, under the GPL anyway, the GNU people could simply have called GNU Libreboot a fork, assigned a new maintainer and carried on with it. That's the thing with free software - you give up the ability to stop people releasing their own version.

I can understand Stallman's position. Libreboot is a really important part of the GNU system, absolutely essential for creating computers that run on completely free software. GNU is diminished by its loss.

The real problem here is that the FSF has not responded well to the alleged discrimination, and due to it's close relationship to GNU both organizations are now being damaged.

Re:There is more to this story...

[93 Escort Wagon]

This is what I hate about these sorts of stories. There are people who will automatically assume "oh, more SJW bullshit" and feel free to pontificate. Then there are people who will assume "another transgendered person is a victim of a horrible misjustice, how typical", and feel free to pontificate. All based on little to no information.

Most of us don't know the situation. We don't know the people involved. I have no idea what the interpersonal environment is like within the FSF. Other than Stallman being quite the odd duck, I know pretty much nothing about any of these people.There's no good context on which to even form an opinion.

Re:There is more to this story...

[pikine]

According to the Information for Maintainers of GNU Software, a package becomes adopted by GNU FSF when a maintainer volunteers to do so. They could bring in a package they didn't write, as long as the package source has a GPL compatible license. It's also not required to transfer the source code copyright to FSF.

Libreboot was derived from Coreboot by removing the proprietary blobs. Leah volunteered to be a GNU package maintainer and started recruiting developers to work on Libreboot, and not for long decided to step down as a maintainer. There is no rule forbidding Leah from continuing to work on Libreboot without being associated with GNU/FSF. She is entitled to stop volunteering for GNU anytime for no reason whatsoever.

What Richard Stallman says is that a GNU package could be orphaned by its maintainer and often remain a GNU package until a new maintainer picks it up, but in this case he was compelled to make a special exemption to excise Libreboot from GNU. GNU/FSF's role is a librarian/publisher, and the maintainers are more like curators. It makes no sense for a package to "leave GNU" just because the curator stopped volunteering.

Re:There is more to this story...

[phantomfive]

I don't know much about the situation, but look at this quote:

[The Libreboot maintainer] Leah Rowe has even spent in excess of 100,000 USD of her own money to have new hardware ported to both coreboot and libreboot, to further the cause. She has spent countless sleepness days and night to keep this project afloat.

That's hardcore. She deserves respect for her hard work and contribution.

Re:There is more to this story...

[phantomfive]

Yeap. You are correct. But having a default position of being generous with respect is also good.

Melodrama

[dinfinity]

The Libreboot page is filled with shitloads of rancor concerning the GNU project and the FSF (which, by its victimized tone, I'm afraid to say doesn't make the maintainer's side of the story more trustworthy).
I can easily see why the FSF isn't sorry to see her go. They're probably cutting all ties with the project just to minimize the amount of further drama.

Read it and cringe:
- https://libreboot.org/why-not-...
- https://libreboot.org/gnu-insu...

She even talks about herself in the third person, even though it's obvious to everybody that she is the one writing it.

Re:Melodrama

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you actually read Stalman's other works other GNU? He is about as far left as you can get. If you got him thinking you are a loon job you might just be one.

Re:Melodrama

[Anonymous Coward]

To be far, the FSF did issue a public statement: https://www.fsf.org/news/free-software-foundation-statement

Although it is our usual policy not to comment publicly on internal personnel matters for privacy reasons, we felt it necessary to state unequivocally that the allegations made in that email are untrue.

I doubt there are more than a handful of people on Slashdot (since we know FSF folks do hang out here) who know the actual truth of the matter. Given that, this is purely a he/she/xe said situation.

For me, I'm taking the accuser's story it with a grain of salt.

Re:Melodrama

[Anonymous Coward]

Related:
http://zammit.org/libreboot-screwup.html

Re: Melodrama

[orlanz]

Well, projects don't just get to leave if they choose. People are welcome to go whenever they want. For a project, an assessment needs to be done if all contributors (copyright holders) wish to leave. Also, the software is GPL, it leaving would only impact future versions.

So the Foundation needs to decide if they want to close out the project, continue under another maintainer, or fork it. Normally, if the license is becoming more restrictive, software like this should be forked. If license stays similar and is compatible, then no point in forking. But here the Foundation also must have thought the drama wasn't worth it and had to let it go and sever all ties. Four months to decide & respond with an OFFICIAL response to an important project leaving is... kind of fast.

As for the rebuttal worry, that's just more drama. Companies should not discuss employee issues in open public. That is not in the best interest in any of the parties. I am sure a through investigation is happening of the related but separate _discrimination_ accusation. They would be opening up to more discrimination lawsuits if they acted too quickly, or even talk about it. Leah is welcome to her opinion and freedom to choose whom she does business with. But her site comes off very unprofessional and too defensive. Everyone is not out to get her. The FSF and in association the GNU is not discriminatory against people like her. One instance does not condemn the collective. Melodrama nicely summarizes it.

In her posting, she should have stated her opinion, reasons for it, and moved on. She should have left names out, tit for tat responses to the www, and over explanation of transgenders & the situation. Then this serious accusation can be given the proper attention it needs. I think her posting the way it's written, chips off a little at the discussion.

Re:Way to ignore the Discrimination claims

[Anonymous Coward]

And the maintainer of libreboot is going to be dispassionate on the subject? Right...

She was hired with the trans gender on the application form. So not likely they're bigoted against trans, is it.

But the radical left will like it because (a) it's "Tech is sexist!" (b) "Trans is better", and the right will like it because (a) "GPL is a cancer!" (b) "Stallman is a leftie hippie!". So it's really going to be something to unite both the tumblr intersectionalists with the trump tweeters. At least there's SOME up side: united in snide.

They got it wrong in the summary

[lucm]

It's the other way around.

GNU and FSF do not belong in the libreboot community at this point.

https://libreboot.org/gnu-insu...

Let's hope the rich and vibrant libreboot community can thrive again now that the transphobic, intolerant GNU and FSF can no longer oppress them.

Re:They.

[Anonymous Coward]

"They" is considered to be an appropriate gender neutral pronoun by some grammarians. It's not ideal, but it's better than some of the atrocities that are sometimes proposed.

wat

[lucm]

Here's what that Leah person has to say about "the sexist" RMS:

For instance, he once described women who have never used GNU Emacs as EMACS virgins. Leah is an emacs virgin.
Leah Rowe is a woman, and she recommends Vim. Her .vimrc is on vimuser.org.
Personal statement from Leah: RMS's comments about emacs virgins is especially offensive to me. Not only is it sexist in general (and directed at me, because I don't use emacs), but also offensive towards my sexuality. His statement implies that men are supposed to have sex with virgin women, and that women only lose their virginity to men. To this day, I've only ever been in lesbian relationships, although I am bi. I lost my virginity to a woman. I find it extremely insulting when someone assumes that I only like men, or that I'm generally interested in men. The woman that I lost my virginity to also happens to be a Vim user, and she is indeed an emacs virgin, like me.

https://libreboot.org/why-not-...

If that person's thinking was a piece of code I wouldn't even try to debug it.

Re:wat

[Toonol]

That is not a quote that a sane person could utter.

Re:wat

[0100010001010011]

His statement implies that men are supposed to have sex with virgin women, and that women only lose their virginity to men.

Where? Where does he ever say that in the one line he stated? He doesn't ever mention a gender.

Additionally the dictionary has multiple definitions of Virgin.

1. a person who has never had sexual intercourse.

2. an unmarried girl or woman.

3. Ecclesiastical. an unmarried, religious woman, especially a saint.

4. the Virgin, Mary, the mother of Christ.

5. Informal. any person who is uninitiated, uninformed, or the like:
He's still a virgin as far as hard work is concerned.

6. a female animal that has never copulated.

7. an unfertilized insect.

8. (initial capital letter) Astronomy, Astrology. the constellation or sign of Virgo.

Adjective:

9. being a virgin:
a virgin martyr.

10. of, relating to, or characteristic of a virgin:
virgin modesty.

11. pure; unsullied; undefiled:
virgin snow.

12. first:
the senator's virgin speech.
13. without admixture, alloy, or modification:
virgin gold.

14. not previously exploited, cultivated, tapped, or used:
virgin timberlands; virgin wool.

15. without experience of; not previously exposed to:
a mind virgin to such sorrows.

16. Informal. being a mixed drink resembling a specific cocktail but made without any alcoholic ingredient:
a virgin piña colada.

17. Zoology. not fertilized.

18. (of a metal) made directly from ore by smelting, rather than from scrap.

19. noting the oil obtained, as from olives, by the first pressing without the application of heat.

Re:wat

[Blue23]

This is totally off-topic, but how is it that there seem to be so many people who live their lives in an exclusively gendered way (ie, exclusively lesbian relationships, as in the quote) but then make the claim that they are actually bi?

Picture a person who has never yet been in a relationship yet feels attraction. Do you see any problem with them describing themselves with a sexual orientation, even though they have not consummated their choice by engaging in a relationship?

I imagine that the author feels attraction to both men and women and as such describes herself as bi, even though she has not yet had the opportunity to engage in a relationship with a man.

Re:wat

[AmiMoJo]

He said it in the speech he gave at the conference. That's why I said you needed to Google it. She was referring to an event you clearly were not familiar with.

Transcription here: http://mjg59.livejournal.com/1...

"And we also have the cult of the virgin of emacs. The virgin of emacs is any female who has not yet learned how to use emacs. And in the church of emacs we believe that taking her emacs virginity away is a blessed act."

Re:wat

[0100010001010011]

But I repeat myself. Where does it say anything about it having to be a male to cause her to 'lose it'?

And in the church of emacs we believe that taking her emacs virginity away is a blessed act."

Does the Church of emacs have a gender rule? Is there a reason Women can't be in the Church of emacs? Your quote expanded on nothing.

Re:wat

[Gavagai80]

It's safe to assume that the only reason to narrow it to only female and not male emacs virgins is in order to tell the overwhelmingly-male emacs evangelicals that spreading emacs is as good as sex. It's a stupid joke. RMS was no doubt generalizing to appeal to the most common group of his audience in that moment (heterosexual men), which isn't a big deal, although I understand and respect the right of other groups to be irritated by it (particularly women who are being appropriated as a reward for the crude joke).

Re:wat

[AmiMoJo]

He doesn't say that. She doesn't claim he said that either. Look, you even quoted her not saying it:

"His statement implies"

And all this arguing is just an attempt to avoid the actual issue.

Who cares

[ArchieBunker]

It probably only works on a handful of systems that are way outdated at this point.

Re:Is this /. post a coverup of the real story?

[allo]

i recommend reading the mailing list thread. Especially the statements from stallman are very calm and peaceful. I would have thought he would be more angry and linus torvalds would have smashed her for what she did on the ML. Stallman seems to be great at diplomacy.

Re:Regressive Leftist?

[_KiTA_]

What exactly are leftists regressing too? Or is this another case of someone from the right wing trying to paint the left with their own brush ala Karl Rove?

First off, I'm a liberal. Voted for Hillary, although my heart belonged to Bernie. I'm not afraid of Trump, though, so I'm apparently not a very good liberal.

Second. Regressive Left is a play on the term "Progressives." Because the authoritarian post-modernist critical theory (read: marxist) nutjobs who are behind the Progressive movement are anything BUT progressive.

They want to set up segregation again, this time under the theory that they'll choose who gets the good water fountains. http://www.thecollegefix.com/p...

They want to discard the magna carta and the foundations of our legal system -- because some pink haired "Gender Diversity Officer" should have more of a say than the police in rape accusations.
http://www.indystar.com/story/...

They want to redefine terms like "racism" so that certain protected classes are allowed to be racist, because they don't know any better. Because the people suggesting this are racists. https://www.rawstory.com/2016/...

We just saw the US population as well as the UK reject this insanity. The rest of the EU appears to be following right behind. And rather than do any form of introspection and start pushing out some of these toxic, problematic marxist elements, instead we get unhinged conspiracy theories about L33t Russian Haxx0rs.

God save us, because the left has learned absolutely nothing.

(Fun fact: Note that the CIA also confirmed all those emails were true, but we're not supposed to care that the DNC is more corrupt than the GOP now. Nor are we supposed to care that Trump actually bamboozled the GOP into giving him a standing ovation when he talked about protecting Gay Rights. Remember, Literally Hitler.)

Much ado about nothing

[Afty0r]

Reading several of the statements about the issue on libreboot.org linked from other highly-voted comments on this thread, they all appear to be written by Leah Rowe, and read like those of a petulant child. There's a lack of maturity both in the tone of the posts and in the content. Some are borderline libellous and have no evidence to back it up - besides hearsay from other people. But not a link to their own post, or even a direct quote, just a load of spiel about what they said. It's sad and pathetic, I suspect the FSF and GNU will be glad to see the back of anyone with that kind of attitude / lack of professionalism.

FSF is not transphobic

[jgfenix]

When that same Leah Rowe decided to make public her sexual identity the far had no problems with retroactively change her name in past posts in the mailing lists. Is they were truly hostile they wouldn't bother.

Re:You don't know how hormones work, do you?

[aepervius]

"There are people who have too much or too little of what makes us one or the other sex. " I think you are confusing transgender and intersex. Basically intersex means you do not fit the exact definition of XX female/XY male, e.g. a female XXY (Klinefelter). Transgender on the other hand , is properly defined by the GP, and people in such case really have gender disphoria, and is a category in the DMS V.

The issue is certainly confused by the fact that in some case, male were operated at birth and had gender reassignment, are sometimes called colloquially transgender, when properly it would be intersex, as they are missing (often) the psychological gender disphoria. One of the most well known example was a kid which had his penis removed at birth (botched circumcision) was tried to be raised as a female, but never felt like it and finally suicided at about 40 (John/Joan case - David Reimer).

Re:You don't know how hormones work, do you?

[Anonymous Coward]

And since fucking when did /. mod trolls up? This guy got up to +4 for God's sake... Can we get some mods in here?

He's not a troll. He put forth a reasoned argument for his position, complete with links. You didn't. Instead, you attacked him and assigned motives; you called his position "hating on LGBTs" but nowhere in his posts does he express any kind of hatred, nor is it even implied in his words.

This is one of the most annoying thing about today's SJW babies -- and one of the biggest reasons why society is finally fed up and not taking any more of it -- everything to them is about "hate." Anything they don't understand must be because of hate. People expressing opposing ideas or viewpoints are hateful. Must be so sad to live with such a disturbed worldview.

Re:You don't know how hormones work, do you?

[_KiTA_]

There are people who have too much or too little of what makes us one or the other sex. They are _literally_ transgender.

What you are speaking of in this case would be intersex, but besides that, no. They feel their gender is wrong. That's the definition of Gender Dysphoria. They are _literally_ suffering from Gender Dysphoria. That's a mental illness or disorder. One that's treated via therapy as well as transitioning.

Which we have already established because it is covered under insurance.

I know a few members of the LGBT community and the last fucking thing they wanted was attention. They kept their heads as low as they could for most of their lives to avoid having them smashed in by people like yourself. Your B.S. is more of the "They choose to be LGBT" crap. Nobody chooses that life. You get shit on non-stop by everyone; _especially_ your family. You spend most of your childhood getting the shit kicked out of your.

You heard it here ladies and gentlemen (and sorry, those are the only two genders): Calling Gender Dysphoria a mental illness - when it is a mental illness -- somehow means the following:

* You wish to physically assault and / or murder people suffering from this mental illness.
* You believe this mental illness is by choice, like no other mental illness in the history of the world.

If you question anything, even the most tiny part of the doctrine, you're tossed in with the most hateful people imaginable, because when you have an echo chamber you absolutely cannot have any windows in it.

Finally your opinion is bad for you too. Hating on LGBTs, like hating on Blacks, is just yet another way the ruling class gives you an outlet for your frustrations instead of better pay and a better lifestyle. It's a buffer to keep the working class at each other's throats instead of theirs. They've been doing it for centuries. Grow the fuck up, wake the fuck up and realize who your real enemies are. You've got more important things to worry about than whether some dude thinks like a chick.

I don't hate LGBTs, nor have I said anything to the effect. Any perceived bigotry is projection on your part. And I love the mention of the "ruling class" and "working class" stuff -- surefire codeword that I'm speaking with a Marxist.

Because that's one of the major takeaways from all the shit mentioned in this thread -- the attempts at "safe spaces," giving "normal" the magic word "cis," the demanding that special classes of people such as Blacks or Transgenders get special rights are the result of people taking the same failed Marxist ideas that have killed hundreds of millions of people and applying it to minorities.

Identity Politics is a scam. We aren't a hivemind and I owe you no apologies for what other people with the same traits as I have done, nor do I owe you or anyone a damned thing because of some superficial trait.

And since fucking when did /. mod trolls up? This guy got up to +4 for God's sake... Can we get some mods in here?

Sounds like you need some muscle over here!

Re:Baby and bathwater.

[youngone]

So, this dude is having a hissy-fit because some other dude wanted to pretend to be a girl, and somebody at FSF didn't play along?

No, that's not what happened, you should read some of the links provided.

A trans-gender employee of the FSF has been fired, no-one from the FSF is saying why, which is probably the sensible thing to do.

The person who has control of the Libreboot project has objected and seems to thing the fired former staff member was fired because of her gender.

Richard Stallman pointed out that the trans person was trans when they were hired, making the objector look bad.

Re:TRANSGENDER discrimination? By FSF?

[rtb61]

From this thread, https://warosu.org/g/thread/56..., it seems emotions and personalities were more at play than anything else. Gees, geeks and nerds, can not you keep you gaming to, well, actual computer games and cut back on the social and emotional gaming. Yes, a lot of you carry over emotional and social scars from having to deal with jock strap douche bags and narcissist cheer leaders who were extremely jealous and vindictive against people who can actually think, don't repeat their behaviour against your own, chill the fuck out. You win together not against each other or alone.

When it comes to gender choices or mutual masturbation activities, keep it to yourself, people are getting really, really sick of hearing about it and fuck the US Democrats for pumping up that issue as a political distraction so people will stupidly ignore economic policy. Keep pushing this nonsense and you will get some real angry majority kick back.

On software freedom's gift to users & philosop

[jbn-o]

Thanks for referring to the discussions that occurred when this first became public. The mailing list discussions and changes in the FSF's website make it clear that Leah Rowe is arguing on behalf of someone else—a former FSF employee whose identity was revealed when their bio was removed from the FSF Staff and Board webpage. The Libreboot project has not been "stolen" from the community as anyone is free to copy the project (before or after leaving the GNU Project) and develop the code further. That is why this is not a loss for software freedom, Libreboot users, or anyone who wishes to continue development (even continuing under the GNU Project again). This freedom is part of what makes free software so great and worth celebrating for its own sake. Only proprietary software really ends up becoming truly inactive because nobody but the proprietor is allowed to develop that code further.

One note on the reddit.org discussion pointed to in one of the links: poster "jammer170" claims:

Not "more free", but "more open". Stripping out binary blobs is important in the open source movement.

But that's almost exactly backwards; that assessment is woefully mistaken about the difference between the older free software movement (which objects on ethical grounds to proprietary software) and open source (a development methodology and right-wing friend of proprietors which finds it more convenient to help developers by sharing software development work but doesn't seriously object to proprietary software). This distinction is relevant to understand why Libreboot exists: Libreboot is a fully-free fork of Coreboot just as GNU Linux-libre is a fully-free fork of the Linux kernel. Both Coreboot and the Linux kernel contain non-free software in them. Both Libreboot and GNU Linux-libre projects inherit code from upstream and remove the non-free blobs (plus possibly make some other modifications beyond the scope of this point) and then distribute completely free software variants of their upstream projects. Thus GNU Linux-libre and Libreboot might not be able to run on all of the hardware their upstream projects run on but what systems can run either Libreboot and/or GNU Linux-libre are doing the jobs those programs do with free software.

This reddit.org discussion is not well sourced on this point, jammer170 makes the aforementioned points with no pointers to help readers understand this distinction nor why this distinction matters. The FSF has published essays (old, new) to explain why free software matters, why the open source movement eschews software freedom, and Richard Stallman devotes a section of his talks to clearly explaining the difference between the philosophies of the free software movement and open source including how those different philosophies play out in practical terms on the ground. Usually that difference comes down to free software activists taking steps to ensure software freedom while open source enthusiasts go along with whatever a proprietor requests.

Re: mental illness

[slashrio]

It doesn't matter a bit whether he/she was/is mental ill.
The FSF has clearly stated that the 'parting' was for reasons that have nothing to do with mental illness.
So can you please take this discussion away and put it where it belongs, alt. illness.mental.gender-dysphoria or so?
It's off-topic. Thanks.

Re:Regressive Leftist?

[GameboyRMH]

First off, I'm a liberal. Voted for Hillary, although my heart belonged to Bernie. I'm not afraid of Trump, though, so I'm apparently not a very good liberal.

Haha you sure aren't! You sound exactly like a centipede (member of the alt-right). Why would someone who is socially about 16 lightyears to the right of anyone with a D beside their name have any interest in Hillary or Bernie? Maybe you're fiscally liberal, but there's some conflict between being fiscally liberal and socially conservative, which is why it's a vanishingly rare combination.

Re:Regressive Leftist?

[Orgasmatron]

Bless you, sir, for doing God's work.

We alt-right can't possibly be everywhere, so we count on the efforts of concerned progressives like yourself to spread our message. I'm happy to report that thanks to the hard work of thousands of people just like you, we pretty much have Trump's 2020 reelection locked in.

Let's not talk about Coreboot vs Libreboot...

[jbn-o]

You could ask about their views on Coreboot and Libreboot and you can look up the licensing yourself. Coreboot has non-free software in it which is stripped out in the Libreboot distribution. Let's not talk about "Coreboot vs. Libreboot" as if they're opposed. As far as I can tell, both work together harmoniously whether Libreboot is a part of the GNU Project or not.

Re:Regressive Leftist?

[GameboyRMH]

I'm glad you expanded your post because I don't really get what that image is saying. Maybe it's too US-centric for my understanding.

Trump's political positions are mostly a magic 8-ball and it was certainly too early to place him squarely on any political spectrum before the election. He frequently flips his stated positions on a whim. I think we can only judge him by his actions, so we'll have to see what he does when he's finished assembling what appears to be a corporatocratic government. He's putting a fox in every henhouse. I think he could be assembling easily the most fiscally right-wing government in living memory.

To argue that he's fiscally further left than Hillary requires a lot of cherry-picking and optimism, especially now that we've seen some of his actions.

One thing he doesn't waver on is a general tendency toward extreme authoritarianism and extreme social backwardness. I shouldn't have to elaborate on his history of racism and his many socially backward proposals. He's chosen Mike Pence, a leading proponent of "pray the gay away" programs and "Jim Queer" laws, as his VP. He's chosen Steve Bannon and Jeff Sessions for his cabinet. He's far to the right of Hillary on most social issues.

And so are you, which might explain why you're OK with Trump, but not why you'd have any interest in Hillary or Bernie or why you call yourself a liberal while calling the left regressive over wacko fringe college politics, using "SJW," the modern general-purpose descendant of "n****r-lover," (side note: Slashdot now triggers the lameness filter if you use the N-word even once) and otherwise spewing what looks like standard alt-right rhetoric. It's bizarre.

Democrats have a problem, sure, obviously, but I'm not too interested in discussing that. We probably agree on most things there.

BTW, the alt-right at the time was indeed broadly a white nationalist movement. It was a hodgepodge of different factions led by a core of neo-nazis. The factions have since split up. I hate to link to Breitbart, but I think this article gives a good overview of the state of things at the time, straight from the horse's mouth. Its only mistake in analyzing the movement is that like many centipedes did, it mistook the neo-nazis for unfortunate hangers-on rather than the the people pulling the strings behind the scenes.

Re:You don't know how hormones work, do you?

[_KiTA_]

No, he set out to deliberately mislead. Compare his text to the content of the links - they are either shitty Reddit posts on well known troll boards, or they don't support what he is claiming at all.

Since I doubt you're claiming that the Liinux Subreddit, the Libreroot Developer, or the GNU mailing list are troll boards, I'm presuming you're talking about KiA.

I'd like to refer everyone to that KiA post again, as it's better cited than anything else I've seen on the topic:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Kotak...

Does this look like trolling to you? Archived links to primary sources? Really?

Are any of the links I quoted earlier divergent from my claims? That's apparently your claim. Which ones?

I was even called out for literally quoting Rowe's claims of "transphobia" because apparently quoting that word is "scare quotes," despite the term "transphobia" having a shifting definition that amounts to "anything that a Transgendered individual doesn't like."

You know why it's best to "scare quote" that term? Because without any context it can mean actual transphobia -- firing someone for their Gender Dysphoria -- or it can mean something as benign as refusing to use some made up fake pronouns or suggesting there are only two genders. This muddying of the water is intentional -- motte and bailey again.

We don't know what "transphboia" happened there, because there's no evidence about anything that's happened in this event. As far as we can know, the "transphobia" was firing an underperforming person who just happens to have Gender Dysphoria -- as you can't be Transgender without Gender Dysphoria -- under the theory that Transmen and Transwomen deserve special exceptions to the rules. I.e., the transphobic act was firing this dev, for any reason.

Which brings us back to the original topic. Contrast the above with the pile of very specific and legally actionable claims that the original claimant, one Leah Rowe, makes.
https://libreboot.org/gnu/

There is exactly 0 evidence, 0 citations on this page. None. NONE.

Which one looks more like trolling, the one with 6 primary source citations, or the one that goes on for pages making vague claims of undefined wrongdoing, including directly accusing three people of violations of labor laws.

In fact, just noticed that in my re-reading. Here's that relevant part with the names removed.

The following people should either resign and/or be fired from the FSF, to be replaced by other people:
X - executive director - the one who fired the employee
Y - outreach and communication coordinator - the bully
Z - system administrator - leaked private emails to X, which lead to the employee being fired.

I would like to put forth a different explanation of what happened, which is just as valid as Leah's based on having the same amount of evidence for it.

The employee in question was sending emails they should not have been. We could speculate on what they are -- harassment, threats, some form of slurs -- but it doesn't matter. The system admin did an investigation of said user's email -- no doubt after an investigation request by Human Resources -- and sent the information to HR. HR then recommended termination, which the executive director followed through with.

Does that sound a bit more reasonable than "it's all a conspiracy because the biggest open source organization in the world just hates transgendered people?" The same one that just happened to be the target of several faux outrage attempts (Sarah Sharp's fainting couch moment, the Ada Institute's attempt to fake a rape hoax against Linus, etc) in the past few years? Really?

In the end I refuse to "listen and believe" -- translating from neo-leftist doublespeak, I refuse to ignore due process and t

Re:You don't know how hormones work, do you?

[_KiTA_]

You ask if the KiA link sounds like a troll. Let's check the headline:

"[SocJus] Leah Rowe, SJW sole git commit owner of Libreboot, rips the project away from GNU for the dismissal of a trans employee. Stallman and FSF deny discrimination, ask for proof, none is offered. Sound familiar?"

Yes, it sounds like a troll.

To you. To me, it's a simple statement of opinionated fact.

Leah Rowe (name, fact)

SJW (descriptive opinion of a form of authoritarian histrionic slacktivist troll, based on her actions and demeanor this is accurate, if an opinion)

sole git commit owner of Libreboot (fact, according to one of the developers of libreboot)

rips the project away from GNU (fact, as she apparently does not represent the entire Libreboot commuinty)

for the dismissal of a trans employee. (fact, a trans employee was dismissed, and this is why she removed the project from GNU)

Stallman and FSF deny discrimination (fact, as linked before)

ask for proof (have not seen RMS or FSF ask for proof myself, but the line could also be read as "[Someone] Ask[ed] for Proof". I have seen others ask for proof)

none is offered (fact.)

Is a statement of fact you disagree with "trolling" now?

Re:You don't know how hormones work, do you?

[Cederic]

and sorry, those are the only two genders

If that's not trolling then it's just blatant ignorance.

See also: XXY
See also: intersex (or hermaphrodite)

Non-binary sexual organs exist, non-binary genders exist. Accept it, get over it.

Re:TRANSGENDER discrimination? By FSF?

[unixisc]

I don't have a problem. But in that case, why have separate men and women's bathrooms? The usual reason is that when multiple men or women go into a bathroom, they don't get to see each other nude. It's the same reason men are not allowed in women's locker rooms in gyms, and vice versa. Although honestly, I can't stand to see nude men or women when I'm walking around anywhere, including locker rooms