Richard Stallman Acknowledges Libreboot Is No Longer A Part of GNU (gnu.org)

Libreboot became an official GNU project in May. Now an anonymous Slashdot reader writes: Richard Stallman has officially announced that Libreboot is no longer a GNU package. The maintainer of Libreboot had tried to leave the GNU project in September 2016, but the departure was not acknowledged until January 2017. Libreboot is a replacement for proprietary BIOS systems, effectively a distribution of coreboot without any binary blobs and adding an automated build/install process.
In the post titled "Goodbye to GNU Libreboot," Stallman wrote that "When a package's maintainer steps down, that doesn't by itself break the relationship between GNU and the package. If it is left without a maintainer but is still useful, the GNU Project will usually look for new maintainers to work on it. However, we can instead drop ties with the package, if that seems the right thing to do.

"A few months ago, the maintainer of GNU Libreboot decided not to work on Libreboot for the GNU Project any more. That was her decision to make. She also asserted that Libreboot was no longer a GNU package -- something she could not unilaterally do. The GNU Project had to decide what to do in regard to Libreboot. We have decided to go along with the former GNU maintainer's wishes in this case, for a combination of reasons: (1) it had not been a GNU package for very long, (2) she was the developer who had originally made it a GNU package, and (3) there were no major developers who wanted to continue developing Libreboot under GNU auspices."

Comments

How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[eionmac]

If not in GNU system, would the maintainer please advise where they have lodged the source code for download.

Re:How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[Selur]

https://libreboot.org/ -> points to https://notabug.org/vimuser/li... for the source code,...

Re:How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[Anonymous Coward]

Um - https://libreboot.org/

Also there is more information as to why libreboot left the GNU. From their site - 'Libreboot left GNU on 2016-09-15, in protest of transgender discrimination at the FSF'.

Re:How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[mlyle]

Same git repository it's been at for some time, with active development still ongoing. Seems like they just are not pleased with the relationship with FSF/GNU.

Re:How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[mlyle]

Update: It seems this is why Libreboot's maintainers were not pleased with GNU: https://libreboot.org/gnu/

Re:How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[Anonymous Coward]

Um - https://libreboot.org/

Also there is more information as to why libreboot left the GNU. From their site - 'Libreboot left GNU on 2016-09-15, in protest of transgender discrimination at the FSF'.

Not surprising.

FSF is pretty close-minded - "my way is always right!"

It even includes technical issues, too. Glibc fork() is not async-signal-safe per POSIX? Even though BSD and Solaris and AIX have no problem making fork() asynch-signal-safe, GNU folks go with "WONTFIX" and try to lobby to water down the POSIX standard because it sets too high a bar for them.

Re: How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[Anonymous Coward]

This. Thank you. There is very little opportunity to express concern and have others respond rationally to the issue at hand.

I'm not the maintainer but have been subject to similar experiences in technology workplaces that made it clear that a change in professions was needed after transitioning.

Re:How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[0100010001010011]

Whee Gender Politics has reached the FSF/GNU.

https://www.reddit.com/r/linux...

https://www.reddit.com/r/Kotak...

Re:How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[ClickOnThis]

Update: It seems this is why Libreboot's maintainers were not pleased with GNU: https://libreboot.org/gnu/

Disclosure: this story is the first time I have heard of this issue.

Although the link points to libreboot's side of this, it still is an eye-opener. TL/DR: the FSF fired a transgender employee on discriminatory grounds, but libreboot unintentionally outed the employee in the first place.

It sounds to me that there are no saints on either side of this issue, but FSF is far more in the wrong than libreboot.

If anyone deserves sympathy here, it's the transgender employee who now faces an uphill battle to reboot their career (pardon the pun.)

Re:How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[allo]

Stallman stated, that there was absolutely no reason concerning the gender/sexuality/sex/whatever but some internal reason he doesn't want to disclose to protect the innocent. There is a thread on the mailinglist.
It's hard to say without knowing the internals, but it looks a bit like someone was fired for $reasons and then tried to reframe it as discrimination.

Re:How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[_KiTA_]

Um - https://libreboot.org/

Also there is more information as to why libreboot left the GNU. From their site - 'Libreboot left GNU on 2016-09-15, in protest of transgender discrimination at the FSF'.

Having read it... That's... an interesting interpretation of events. You'll note the complete lack of evidence in it? That's important.

Here's what actually happened, based on what evidence I could find. Leah Woods is a SJW who had a fit because of some made up bullshit that boils down, like all made up SJW bullshit, to "Open Source is a meritocracy, but we still want special treatment."

Here's a well sourced discussion on it on Kotaku In Action, the GamerGate reddit board:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Kotak...

And some discussion over on reddit's linux board:
https://www.reddit.com/r/linux...

Basically, Leah Rowe had a fit because the FSF parted ways with a transgendered employee.

Leah makes the unfounded claim that the FSF did this because the person has a mental illness (gender dysphoria / gender identity disorder), because someone wrote criticism of said person with mental illness which looked bad on the FSF, etc. She provides no evidence of these VERY specific claims.
http://archive.is/iXIbc

The FSF make a statement on 9/16 pointing out that they have a strong anti-harassment and anti-discrimination policies, as well as a so called "safe space policy" at FSF events. In other words, they have already capitulated to all the standard Regressive Leftist demands. They deny the accusation and say the person with mental illness was terminated for other reasons.
https://archive.is/HGLMa

Leah specifically follows up this claim here, changing her claim to a different claim that two FSF employees were "transphobic" and "bullying" this mentally ill developer. She namedrops these two people, but refuses to namedrop the supposed victim, believing they deserve protection from any criticism or questioning of these claims. Note that this apparently does not apply to the two men she is accusing without any form of evidence of unprofessional and possibly illegal behavior.
https://archive.is/7cXtw#selec...

She follows this up with more increasingly unhinged spam and unfounded accusations. She ignores, bans, or curses out people requesting evidence or disputing her one woman lynch mob. She posts an unhinged screed on her website showing she has little to no understanding of open source, all while repeating the same unfounded claims, as well as claiming martyrdom on her part.
https://archive.is/JmiTG

It's important to note that libreroot is a fork of Coreboot and being part of the GNU project means it was posted under an open source license. Which means someone could easily fork it again and put it BACK in the GNU project. Of course, proving she doesn't understand the first thing about open source, she specifically wants people NOT to do that. I suggest the name cisLibreBoot, because it seems the most amusing name possible.

Fortunately, the GNU mailing list appears to basically shut her histrionics down fairly quickly:
http://archive.is/di974

In addition, it's important to realize the unhinged professional victimhood martyrdom ravings of Leah Rowe, which are REMARKABLY similar to other social justice activists such as Brianna Wu or Nora Reed, don't actually represent the Libreroot community. See, it turns out, what she did was steal access to the main repository and lock out everyone else, all while making her unhinged, evidence-free stat

Re:How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[Dutch Gun]

The FSF made a blanket statement denying the accusation, but I haven't seen anything more than that. So... that's all we have to go on. If this were a giant corporation everyone hated, like Comcast, would people be so equally quick to simply take a company's terse press release as proof of their innocence? Did they actually do any sort of serious internal investigation? They don't even say. Forgive me I'm a bit skeptical.

Then again, I have no idea who Leah Rowe is, or what kind of person she is. Maybe she's unstable or a liar, and just makes things up. Maybe she's telling the truth. Or maybe her perspective and mentality differs so much from the others at the FSF that the same facts are interpreted in completely opposite ways.

How do you tell who's telling the truth in this literal "he said / she said"? I certainly can't.

Re:How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[Anonymous Coward]

You calling a transgendered person "mentally ill" sounds no different than the bigots who called homosexuals "mentally ill"
How is your bigotry any more justified than theirs, bigot?

Re: How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree with the sentiment but your rhetorical questions will just result in the same old confused anti-trans talking points and buzzwords. It's always "be careful what you ask for" with guys like this. Bigots usually don't stop being bigots -- or even seeing their own misconceptions as misconceptions -- for being called bigots.

Re:How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[_KiTA_]

You calling a transgendered person "mentally ill" sounds no different than the bigots who called homosexuals "mentally ill"
How is your bigotry any more justified than theirs, bigot?

I'm not calling transgendered people mentally ill. I'm saying Gender Dysphoria is a mental illness.

http://www.ifge.org/302.85_Gen...
http://www.theravive.com/thera...
http://dsm.psychiatryonline.or...
https://www.psychiatry.org/pat...

And I'm right. Sorry, but it's true.

Now, since being Transgender requires Gender Dysphoria -- so called Tumbrina "TransTrenders" aren't transgender, they're attention seeking children -- it's an unpopular, but correct, statement to say that they are people with a mental illness receiving treatment.

Fortunately for me, an "unpopular" opinion is not bigotry, no matter what the authoritarian regressive post-modernists that have taken over the left in the west think.

Re:How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks, anon, for calling an asshole out for what they are.

As a sidenote, a person using the term SJW is about 1.5 times more likely to be an asshole as a random person. I've seen plenty during my work in the anarchist militia. Usually economically right-leaning social conservatives without a clue.

Re:How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[Anonymous Coward]

> You calling a transgendered person "mentally ill" sounds no different than the bigots who called homosexuals "mentally ill"...

The _fact_ that gender dysphoria is a medical condition is what causes insurance companies to cover gender reassignment surgeries and the associated procedures. Gender dysphoria is a _real_ _medical_ condition that is treated and treated _effectively_ by gender reassignment surgeries, hormone replacement, & etc.

Gender dysphoria is no less real than schizophrenia or the various flavors of psychotic depression (this is depression, plus delusions like "Every living thing in the world is full of maggots, myself included, and thus I am sad." or "I am already dead. I am literally a walking cadaver. I can literally see and smell my body decay, and -thus- I am sad and I require no food, as I am already dead."). There are treatments that vary in effectiveness from _completely_ to _reasonable_ for these medical conditions.

One is _terribly_ off the mark if one is calling another a bigot for mentioning that a medical condition that has _widely_ recognized and _effective_ treatments that the patients are happy with is -you know- a medical condition.

As a side note: interestingly enough, unlike gender dysphoria, body dysmorphia (the feeling that a part of your body is _wrong, wrong, WRONG, WRONG!, WRONG!!!_) is _not_ responsive to surgical intervention! Either the patient is _unshakably_ convinced that the surgery was botched, and the part is still WRONG, or the feelings of WRONGness are transferred to another part of the body.

Re:How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[squiggleslash]

At this point the entire thing is dubious - very vague allegations against the FSF that the FSF denies, coupled with an over broad attack on the organization that's difficult to judge.

Something happened, that much is clear, and it got back to Ms Rowe in some form that made her extremely angry. But without more information, and at least some objective facts that are verifiable, it's not easy to determine how to solve the problem.

The FSF isn't Comcast, the FSF is, to a certain extent, us. We contribute in our own small ways as developers or even as users to the ecosystem whose seed it nurtured and grew. As such, Rowe's actions, based upon her apparent anger, are understandable but not really a template for the rest of us. If there's a problem, the solution will come from discussing it and reforming to fix them. Unfortunately that discussion isn't happening.

Re:How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[Anonymous Coward]

It used to be, until members of the psychological/psychiatric profession were badgered into redefining the illness as being not an illness.

That of course leads us to the greater question of, "What is a mental illness, anyway? And why?". If people can be functional in society, ought we define something as an illness? Maybe, maybe not.

And how far must we go to accommodate someone's "idiosyncracies" before we ourselves are the ones who are mad?

Re:How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[Anonymous Coward]

If you want to be that pedantic, then no, transgender does not require gender dysphoria, as in DSM5:

"gender nonconformity is not in itself a mental disorder. The critical element of gender dysphoria is the presence of clinically significant distress associated with the condition."

Your opinion is not unpopular but probably pretty mainstream (and heavily upvoted in this thread). So please shelf your victim complex.

Re:How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Gender Dysphoria" is not a mental illness. Unless being gay is a mental illness too, which I guess it is by your definition...

Wrong on both counts. It is classified as a mental illness so that insurance companies pay out on gender reassignment surgery, the same cannot be said for homosexuality. I'm afraid you can't just say "I want the money but without the negative connotation".

Re:How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[AmiMoJo]

FFS Slashdot... Reddit and GamerGate are the main sources? And they don't even back up the wild claims being made. Look at this bullshit, for example:

"She follows this up with more increasingly unhinged spam and unfounded accusations. She ignores, bans, or curses out people requesting evidence or disputing her one woman lynch mob. She posts an unhinged screed on her website showing she has little to no understanding of open source, all while repeating the same unfounded claims, as well as claiming martyrdom on her part.
https://archive.is/JmiTG [archive.is]"

The link does not support any of the claims! Nothing about banning, cursing or even responding to anyone at all.

And if course, Kita follows it up with some transphobia. Clarification of gender dysphoria as a mental illness is a political move. Some people want to stigmatise it, some want to ensure that US health insurance providers cover treatment.

Re:How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not calling transgendered people mentally ill.

Now, since being Transgender requires Gender Dysphoria -- so called Tumbrina "TransTrenders" aren't transgender, they're attention seeking children -- it's an unpopular, but correct, statement to say that they are people with a mental illness receiving treatment.

So...which is it?

Fortunately for me, an "unpopular" opinion is not bigotry, no matter what the authoritarian regressive post-modernists that have taken over the left in the west think.

Or it just means you're misinterpreting the disorder and blanket-applying it to all transgendered because you're now defending your bigoted views with semantic arguments.

From the DSM-5, used for diagnosis and classifications:

It is important to note that gender nonconformity is not in itself a mental disorder. The critical element of gender dysphoria is the presence of clinically significant distress associated with the condition.

But do go on about your willingness to martyr yourself to the public court by posting unpopular opinions. Let's not let facts get in the way of your sacrifice.

Re:How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[Pinky's Brain]

Their health outcomes after SRS didn't look so good in Sweden. A country where people feel guilty about reporting being raped by an refugee because the refugee might be deported, so please don't blame it on society ... they are as liberal/progressive as you can get.

Re:How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[mysidia]

No.... One person involved with Libreboot (the maintainer) decided the Libreboot community would leave GNU in protest citing frivolous claims of transgender discrimination as a reason for requiring the project to dissasociate with GNU --- That is, unsubstantiated claims, which the Maintainer of Libreboot has personally maintained to have some basis, but which by all rational accounts and published details seem to be unfounded or lacking believable evidence for valid basis.

Since some involved with Libreboot have demonstrated themselves to be political activists that see the manner they conduct the Libreboot project as a means to furthering their goals. If the claims of TG discrimination were not in fact so Unfounded, you just know they would surely have lawyers All over this.... to swarm GNU, to bring them into submission and apology, or to make a civil case against them.....

Re:How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[Dutch Gun]

Still, keep in mind that the FSF is two things: it's a legal non-profit organization with board members and a handful of paid employees, as well as a broader community of volunteers, enthusiasts, and supporters. While the latter is the organization that most people are affiliated with, the former means they still have the same legal obligations and responsibility as any other corporate employer.

That being the case, though, you make an interesting point, albeit indirectly:

Something happened, that much is clear, and it got back to Ms Rowe in some form that made her extremely angry.

Whatever happened here, Ms Rowe is not a first-hand witness to these accounts any more than we are. That doesn't automatically discredit the story, but doesn't do anything to actually confirm it either, unless we actually hear from one of those people themselves.

Bleh. Like you said, dubious. Apparently, the involved parties or first-hand witnesses have collectively decided to clam up / move on, so there's not much else for us to do either.

Re:How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[sjames]

They're kinda stuck. If they lay out their actual reasons for termination, they open themselves to a big lawsuit for privacy violation.

Re:How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[dcollins]

Your unhinged rant sounds quite similar, in length and tone, to hers.

Re:How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[_KiTA_]

"Gender Dysphoria" is not a mental illness. Unless being gay is a mental illness too, which I guess it is by your definition...

Wrong on both counts. It is classified as a mental illness so that insurance companies pay out on gender reassignment surgery, the same cannot be said for homosexuality. I'm afraid you can't just say "I want the money but without the negative connotation".

That is, ultimately, what this is about. They want Gender Dysphoria to be in some sort of weird quantum state of illness and identity, where they can pick either one based on what is most beneficial to them at any given time.

Want to pick and choose what treatment you get? Then it's identity, and you don't "need" dysphoria to have it.

Want to get a shared insurance fund to pay for your SRS and Transitioning? Then it's a mental illness and coverage is required by law.

It's a form of the Motte and Bailey post-modernist fallacy, the same one that brings us "crybullying" -- aka, "I'm so oppressed that I'm going to ruin your life for upsetting me."

Re: How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[GameboyRMH]

The "professional victim" is a nonexistant bogeyman, always has been. Its claimed existence is the last refuge of indefensible victimizers and their supporters.

Re:How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[rubypossum]

It's really an endocrine disorder brought about by a birth defect that can be partially surgically corrected. Opinionated assholes on either side don't contribute in any way to ease the suffering in the world. Giving trans-people treatment has been unilaterally found to save lives. Who cares about labels when people's lives are at stake.

Re:How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[Orgasmatron]

There is a long tradition in medicine to translate a patient's symptoms into quasi-latin or quasi-greek and call it a diagnosis.

Sore windpipe? Bronchitis
Sore skin? Dermatitis
Sore brain membrane? Meningitis
Profound state of unease or dissatisfaction over your pronouns? Gender dysphoria

Those are all literal translations, by the way, so if one of them is a "political move", it seems like all of them must be.

Special treatment of pronoun problems is a political move. Of course, you already know that since I think I've personally pointed out to you several times that "SJW's always project."

Note that there is no political movement to indulge anorexics (another body dysphoria) with LAP bands. Nor amputations for those that feel like they have an extra or alien limb. But somehow we believe that we can cure pronoun problems by spaying and neutering, post-op suicide rate be damned.

Re:How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[shutdown -p now]

Here's what actually happened ... Kotaku In Action, the GamerGate reddit board

These two things would seem to be contradictory. Except, of course, in some weird alternate reality where "Gamergate" actually happened the way Reddit thinks it did.

Re:How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[Dutch Gun]

Yeah, that's a fair point.

Re:How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[Kkloe]

You clearly starts with defining that the person has and using the words "mental illness\disorder", why do you bring them up, how does it adds to anything about the person beside using negative words(historically speaking both are seen very negatively when brought up) to make the character of the person look worse than hir is?
As you are using those words continually through your post those words you can see that you try all the time to take down the person to be "mentally ill" and reinforce it, is it necessary?

You are poisonous and clearly wants to put that person in such way that it would be hir against we.

And to myself "put down" someone, if you consider that a counter evidence post would be using "discussions" in some reddit posts a valid counter, I cant see how they bring anything up beside shit posting and try to get as many links possible to your post\statement.

Re:How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[serviscope_minor]

Hmm Let's see:

* Kotaku in action
* Reddit
* SJW
* histrionics
* Brianna Wu
* Bullying

I call Bingo!!

What do I win?

Re:How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[serviscope_minor]

Profound state of unease or dissatisfaction over your pronouns? Gender dysphoria

Well that's a strong clue you need to spend less time on Tumblr and more time outside meeting actual, real people.

Re:How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[arglebargle_xiv]

It's a lot more complicated than that. This is another Gamergate-style shitfight that's been dragging on for a long time, with everyone in very entrenched positions and convinced they're right. Here's one side, here's the other.

Re:How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[swillden]

That of course leads us to the greater question of, "What is a mental illness, anyway? And why?". If people can be functional in society, ought we define something as an illness? Maybe, maybe not.

If behavior that is outside of the range of normalcy does not impede functioning in society, it is not a mental illness. The diagnostic criteria for mental illnesses describe lots of behaviors associated with them, but the diagnostic manual also specifies that behaviors constitute an illness only if they interfere with the person's ability to function in society.

So, according to psychology, the answer to the question of whether we should define something to be an illness if they can function is "no".

In the case of gender dysphoria, then, there are people with the characteristics of this illness who are and are not ill, depending on whether it interferes with their functioning in society. Those who find that it makes them unable to work, etc., are ill, those who get along fine are not. This means that the context may determine whether or not someone is considered sick. If they live and work in an environment that accepts their behavior and everything works fine, then they're not sick. If their environment does not accept their behavior and this causes distress and prevents them from functioning then they are sick... but it's generally more effective and better for everyone involved if everyone changes to accommodate them, because the accommodation required is small and easy -- just treat them as though they were the gender they wish they were.

In some cases, sufferers of gender dysphoria find that they're sufficiently unhappy in their own bodies that they can't function normally even if others make the relevant accommodations. They have a mental illness. There are two approaches to treating this mental illness: Adjusting their bodies to match their gender identities, or adjusting their gender identities to match their bodies. It's generally thought that the former is more practical and feasible than the latter, though some professionals disagree, citing studies that show that gender reassignment has poor outcomes.

Re:How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[swillden]

"Gender Dysphoria" is not a mental illness. Unless being gay is a mental illness too, which I guess it is by your definition...

Wrong on both counts. It is classified as a mental illness so that insurance companies pay out on gender reassignment surgery, the same cannot be said for homosexuality. I'm afraid you can't just say "I want the money but without the negative connotation".

That is, ultimately, what this is about. They want Gender Dysphoria to be in some sort of weird quantum state of illness and identity, where they can pick either one based on what is most beneficial to them at any given time.

Want to pick and choose what treatment you get? Then it's identity, and you don't "need" dysphoria to have it.

Want to get a shared insurance fund to pay for your SRS and Transitioning? Then it's a mental illness and coverage is required by law.

You don't understand what mental illness is. This isn't a case of picking and choosing, it's clear-cut diagnosis and treatment.

To understand this, you first have to realize that any given cluster of behavioral symptoms may or may not constitute mental illness. Two people can have exactly the same symptoms and one is diagnosed as sick and the other as healthy. What makes the difference? Whether or not the person is able to function in society.

A person with gender dysphoria (or any other out-of-norm behavior) is mentally ill if and only if their condition results in an inability to function in society. In societal contexts that accept them as they are and are willing to treat them as the gender identity they prefer, many are able to function and are therefore not sick. For others, even with social accommodations, they are still uncomfortable in their bodies and can't function and therefore are sick. This may look like "picking and choosing", but it's just a direct result of how severe their gender dysphoria is -- something that no one can know until the individual tries living one way for a while.

It's a form of the Motte and Bailey post-modernist fallacy, the same one that brings us "crybullying" -- aka, "I'm so oppressed that I'm going to ruin your life for upsetting me."

Oh, stop being such an asshole. People suffering from this condition aren't doing it just to inconvenience you, they really are struggling with problems, and the fact that you can't relate doesn't make them in any way less real. The same is true of people suffering from other mental and physical illnesses. That guy in the wheelchair doesn't refuse to get up and walk just because he thinks it's funny to make you pay for a wheelchair ramp, and the man who feels like he should have been a woman isn't doing it just to bug you either.

Re:How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[GuB-42]

Gender issues, seriously?!
I thought people of the GNU project were the kind of people who don't even notice the gender or even specie of their fellows. Maybe there is discrimination against people who actually talk about gender instead of, well, things related to free software.

Re:How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[DarkOx]

You claim of bigotry might have wide support but where is your scientific evidence. Its been almost 30 years now since the human genome project, not gay gene. It could be environmental or developmental. When U Oregon was having some success 'curing' 'gay rams' LGBT activists jumped all over the research fearing what that could mean for people.

This is not at all like race where you are born with certain physical characteristics that result from your genetic makeup. Right now there is actually very little evidence to suggest that homosexuality isn't a choice or isn't simply a chemical or hormonal issue that could be altered with medication. Actually the only evidence I am aware of is that 'conversion therapy' does not seem to work. Considering all the 'conversion therapy' has been mostly based on unscientific ideas, carried out by poorly qualified practitioners that is not really surprising. I would not expect those groups to have a high degree of success treating any other mental illness either.

Re:How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[DarkOx]

"gender nonconformity" is a little girl who like to play with toy firetrucks, or a teenage boy who wants to be on the cheer squad, or college women that want to play football. There nothing wrong with any of those things.

There is something wrong when it moves from "i like doing things more typically associated with the other gender" to "I think I really am a..." and there is no present chromosomal abnormality. What could be more distressing than thinking you are in the wrong body, and being willing to take all sorts of hormones and other treatments that have down right nasty side effects is solid proof of that distress nobody would do that unless they thought they *needed* it. Given the need is imagined in all but the most unusual cases yes they have a disorder, even by DSM language.

DSM by the way seems to subject to a lot of political pressure and moods of the day. DSM4 had very different language on gay and transgender issues and there has been little in the way of advances in physical science on the issue since that was published.

   

Re: How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[GLMDesigns]

Really? Never any fake hate crimes? Not one?

Take your head out of the sand and pay attention.

Women who claim to be raped but haven't. (Rape should be punished by death)
People who claim racist slogans were painted or crosses were burned on their property (turns out it was done by them).
Muslim girl who claims she was assaulted for being muslim but lied. (This was a couple of weeks ago in NYC)

Re: How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[GameboyRMH]

Attempted professional victims, sure, but they're almost always quickly found out. Nobody has found lasting success as a "professional victim" and it's an extremely risky and costly fraud to attempt. I think such attempts are vanishingly rare, but unfortunately because of those few, victimizers attempt to paint any and all of their victims with the same brush.

Re:How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[silentcoder]

Except that the supposed discrimination never happened. The trans women was hired, as an out trans person, worked there a few years and was let go - as happens at times.
The libreboot person decided she was let go because of her gender (she never claimed to think it had played a role) the FSF said her gender played no role and she was let go simply because the job she was doing had become redundant. Sad but true.

So there is no evidence that there ever *was* any trans discrimination - on the contrary, they were happy to hire a transwomen, knowing she was trans and employed her for a very long time.

Re: How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[GameboyRMH]

How can anyone who is not a victim be a professional victim? Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson are closer to politicians than anything else. Like politicians they can rile up their base for donations.

The only successful "professional victims" are those who profited even though their lie was exposed. It's an incredibly risky and expensive fraud to attempt.

Successful "professional victims" are so rare they're not worth considering. The unsuccessful and exposed are still incredibly rare. To even suggest that any random person is a "professional victim" without solid evidence is just asinine victim blaming.

Re: How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[moronoxyd]

Just because real victims exist, that doesn't negate the existence of people who would use that status falsely.

But the existence of 'professional victims' can not be an excuse to take nobodys claims serious.
Just because there is some fake money in circulation doesn't mean that you don't accept any money at all, or do you?

Re: How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[silentcoder]

No. It is not.
The DSM specifically states that it is not an illness per se, but a potential CAUSE of mental illnesses (including depression).

Re: How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[GLMDesigns]

"Professional" is a descriptive term. It refers to people to whom the narrative counts more than the facts.

Professional does not refer to payment or employment.

You ought to know this. Actually I think you do know the difference and are just engaging in sophistry.

Unless there is a /sarc tag that I simply missed :)

Re: How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[rochrist]

Right. And I knew this super fat black woman who was on welfare and had a Cadillac and was buy steaks with food stamps!

Re: How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[GLMDesigns]

I'm not the OP. But "professional" victim, or instigator is part of the American lexicon. It's a phrase, that if parsed, doesn't make much sense, but then the same is true for most colloquial expressions.

Re: How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[SharpFang]

Still need Anita Sarkeesian to lose her position. She's been shown as a fraud, she's been shown as totally ignorant in the field she claims to be an expert, and she has a devout following of rabid fanatics who happily swallow every her lie and attack anyone who points out how she keeps stealing their money, keeps blatantly lying in her videos, and how she blames every single complaint against her on misogyny.

Re:How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[rochrist]

Did you actually read this? https://libreboot.org/gnu/ [libreboot.org] Because the allegations aren't even remotely vague. They are very specific.

Re: How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[SharpFang]

Except you're missing a fairly broad margin of "professional victims" whose lie was NOT exposed - or at least, they managed to cover their tracks well enough, that whoever exposed their lie, didn't manage to gather enough rock-solid evidence to make their case.

If you look close at many of the "victim cases", there's very often something stinky, something dodgy, something suspicious - but since "they are the victims, they are suffering", any attempts to dig deeper are seen as most despicable carrion-eater activity, attempts to harm the poor victims! That way a lot of fraudsters can get by with total impunity, safe in their conviction that their lies will never be exposed.

Seriously, step out of your echo chamber and google "[name] is a fraud". You will only very rarely find any solid proof - but you WILL find suspicious activity - which you will not be able to trace down, neither prove or disprove, due to the "victim protection" atmosphere.

Re:How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[SharpFang]

Being transgender doesn't grant immunity from being mentally ill.

Being mentally ill, on the other hand, often leads to various misguided ideas concerning own sexuality, often driving one to the gender change operation.

And it's quite close-minded, to think mental illnesses are only a problem among straight cisgender people, and never touch the LGBT community - and so is thinking no mentally ill person will ever have their mental illness lead them to gender-related confusion.

Blanket claim that no transgender is ever mentally ill is just as bigoted as transgender is a mental illness.

Re: How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[nedlohs]

It is a bit weird, given non-literal phrases are common in modern American lexicon (and this is slashdot with it's US centric nature). That phrase is common enough: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

In a related expression "social justice warriors" are not actually specialized in combat or warfare.

When someone says their car "is on its last legs" they don't actually mean their car doesn't use wheels and is more of an AT-AT type vehicle

Re: How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[Cederic]

That surprises me. I've worked with multiple transgendered people and found that IT departments and technology companies tend to be very accepting.

That doesn't mean that there isn't the occasional immature behaviour but I've never seen it directed at the specific individual.

Maybe just a change in workplace rather than a change in profession, or possibly you're in a country/location that just needs some education.

Re:How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[allo]

The point is, he does not have to be helpful to us as uninvolved readers. This is a company thing and maybe a personal thing. This should be managed by the people involved, not by a large crowd reading the mailing list (archives). The trans person did the mistake to take it into the public, not RMS.
If the involved people really think there is something discriminatory happening, they should go to court. There are laws for this. But not go to the public, tell their version with some "i do not explain in detail, because of the victim" passages. You see on your posting, that it now seems like the reasonable way would be, to post the other side as well. But this will not help the victim (i just stick with this pov atm), as they would need to release more information against her/him. And probably information, which could really damage an career, because it does not seem like they fired her/him, because they need to reduce jobs, but because of some internal problems with her/him. Do you really want your ex-employee to elaborate about such problems in the public?
I would even suspect, that such a statement then could be a big reason to got to court for haressment. You just do not publish something for everybody.

Re:How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[_KiTA_]

People suffering from this condition aren't doing it just to inconvenience you

Nor did I say so. You are changing my argument to make it easier to attack. The textbook definition of a Strawman Fallacy.

Re:How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[_KiTA_]

Lol. KiTa. The guy that got banned from multiple gaming websites for posting support of pedophilia.

Name one.

Re:How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[Cederic]

I believe treatment for transvestites is access to clothing of the relevant gender and some privacy.

'trans' is ambiguous; it could be any transgender condition, ranging from transvestite (basically a paraphilic fetishism) to transsexual (gender dimorphism) and including a complex set of varied conditions in-between.

I'm not sure I'd use the term 'cured' to describe a post-op transsexual. They may well be more comfortable with their revised body but my experience is that they continue to struggle with a range of challenges - and the suicide rate amongst post-op transsexuals suggests that there are serious issues amongst a non-trivial subset.

Re:How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[_KiTA_]

"So...which is it?"
If I read his post correctly, wouldn't a transvestite be under medication, and a post-op trans be cured?

Not sure. I was under the impression that the term "transvestite" is now a slur.

Here's an interesting thought experiment. If they managed to create a low cost pill that would "cure" dysphoria by realigning the person's brain with their body's natural hormonal output -- a cure that would not require transitioning. Would it be right to push people into that therapy + that medication rather than transitioning?

We're rapidly accelerating to the point that SRS surgery is going to be indistinguishable from a "cis" version of that person. I do have to wonder how society will change once consequence free transitioning is a thing.

Re:How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[_KiTA_]

And if course, Kita follows it up with some transphobia.

And now, ladies and gentlemen, you see why I put transphobia in quotes earlier. Because that term is so vague and has so many alternate definitions that you can literally be transphobic by saying "Hello Ma'am" to someone when they enter your business.

Re: How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[_KiTA_]

I'm pretty sure the DSM states that Gender Dysphoria is when you have Dysphoria -- you hate your life -- over your Gender. I.e., it's Gender Nonconformity taken to the level that it is affecting your mental health.

Or, in layman's terms...

Re:How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[Cederic]

I think it's very appropriate for an employer to 'no comment' the reasons a member of staff left the organisation, particularly in public.

As you highlight, Stallman can't win here. At least by protecting the privacy of the former employee he isn't guaranteeing a loss.

In the UK transgenderism is a protected characteristic, so anybody getting fired has legal recourse available to them. I'm not sure whether that's the case in the jurisdiction involved, but I'm sure that if discrimination did occur then action could be taken.

Re: How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[ArmoredDragon]

Really?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

How can you claim that this is anything other than a professional victim?

Re: How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[ArmoredDragon]

Aside from everyday ones:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

There are the ones that really take it far, like this guy who accused everybody of being racist (if a reporter said they were going out to the field, he implied that it was a reference to slaves in cotton fields) and it ended with him shooting up another reporter who was supposedly victimizing him:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

If you look on youtube, there are lots of these.

Re: How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[silentcoder]

Yes, but the very next sentence reads: "It is important to note that gender dysphoria is not an illness as such".

It goes on to say that, if the effects are severe enough to significantly harm the patients ability to live as a functioning member of society it can become an illness. But that is incredibly rare, and generally, how bad the effects are, are entirely divorced from anything related to the patient - they are determined by how accepting the people around the patient are.
Patients with plenty of people around them who accept and respect their identity generally live happy lives, those without frequently end up committing suicide.

Assistance in transitioning greatly reduces that suicide risk. Some here have tried to diminish transitioning-assistance by citing the high rate of post-op suicides, but conveniently ignore that, despite being high - that risk is still massively lower than the risk of suicide among transgender people who do not transition (a group which, in fact, has the highest suicide risk of all people by far).

Re: How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[SharpFang]

Maybe, by fellow female prison mates. 'Cause she'd be in prison for misappropriation of funds from her Kickstarter.

Re:How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[Coren22]

Gamergate-style shitfight? So they were protesting the ethics in GNU?

Re:How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[Coren22]

Oh man, I hate when that happens. Now can we get on with the bigotry of labeling people by the groups they fit in with? Labeling people "economically right-leaning social conservatives without a clue" is bigotry, in case you missed the callout. Nowhere in the post being discussed was there any indication of the person's economic perspective.

Re:How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[_KiTA_]

Sssh, that publisher doesn't even recognize the 59 genders, and believes biology isn't a social contract. Hell, they probably believe the evidence and logic are more important than feeling and identity. Obviously they're transphobic as fuck. Literally Hitler.

Re: How to get it in future? Where is it lodged?

[GameboyRMH]

Did she profit from those encounters or does she regularly do so? If not, she's just an angry nutjob. The existence of angry nutjobs does not justify pre-emptive victim-blaming.

There is more to this story...

[Razed By TV]

Something about this summary struck me as strange.

It seems Leah created a project, joined with GNU, then decided to separate from the GNU, and Stallman is talking as if Leah can't go back to her original project. Is that normal? It seems borderline abusive to me.
"Oh, you want to leave? Well, I'm going to make sure I tell everyone publicly that you have my permission, because I am the one in power, and you are lucky that I am letting you go."

Leah's reason for the split was because of discrimination that occurred at Free Software Foundation, GNU's main funding source. I'm not very familiar with the situation, but at the very least, here are links for another side of the story:
https://libreboot.org/gnu/
https://libreboot.org/gnu-insu...

Re:There is more to this story...

[Anonymous Coward]

Just to be fair, this could be another SJW situation too and Stallman is handling this properly by not saying too much. We all learned from Brianna and Anita how irrational and hypersensitive those folks can get. Won't know until we hear all the details.

Re:There is more to this story...

[AmiMoJo]

Since Libreboot is free software, under the GPL anyway, the GNU people could simply have called GNU Libreboot a fork, assigned a new maintainer and carried on with it. That's the thing with free software - you give up the ability to stop people releasing their own version.

I can understand Stallman's position. Libreboot is a really important part of the GNU system, absolutely essential for creating computers that run on completely free software. GNU is diminished by its loss.

The real problem here is that the FSF has not responded well to the alleged discrimination, and due to it's close relationship to GNU both organizations are now being damaged.

Re:There is more to this story...

[93 Escort Wagon]

This is what I hate about these sorts of stories. There are people who will automatically assume "oh, more SJW bullshit" and feel free to pontificate. Then there are people who will assume "another transgendered person is a victim of a horrible misjustice, how typical", and feel free to pontificate. All based on little to no information.

Most of us don't know the situation. We don't know the people involved. I have no idea what the interpersonal environment is like within the FSF. Other than Stallman being quite the odd duck, I know pretty much nothing about any of these people.There's no good context on which to even form an opinion.

Re:There is more to this story...

[pikine]

According to the Information for Maintainers of GNU Software, a package becomes adopted by GNU FSF when a maintainer volunteers to do so. They could bring in a package they didn't write, as long as the package source has a GPL compatible license. It's also not required to transfer the source code copyright to FSF.

Libreboot was derived from Coreboot by removing the proprietary blobs. Leah volunteered to be a GNU package maintainer and started recruiting developers to work on Libreboot, and not for long decided to step down as a maintainer. There is no rule forbidding Leah from continuing to work on Libreboot without being associated with GNU/FSF. She is entitled to stop volunteering for GNU anytime for no reason whatsoever.

What Richard Stallman says is that a GNU package could be orphaned by its maintainer and often remain a GNU package until a new maintainer picks it up, but in this case he was compelled to make a special exemption to excise Libreboot from GNU. GNU/FSF's role is a librarian/publisher, and the maintainers are more like curators. It makes no sense for a package to "leave GNU" just because the curator stopped volunteering.

Re:There is more to this story...

[phantomfive]

and Stallman is talking as if Leah can't go back to her original project.

No, you understood it wrong. She of course can go back to her original project. The question is whether that will cause a fork, or if GNU would close down their 'branch' of the project.

She cannot force everyone else (or anyone else) to stop working on their own branch of the project, because that is what the GPL (and open source more generally) is designed to allow.

Re:There is more to this story...

[phantomfive]

I don't know much about the situation, but look at this quote:

[The Libreboot maintainer] Leah Rowe has even spent in excess of 100,000 USD of her own money to have new hardware ported to both coreboot and libreboot, to further the cause. She has spent countless sleepness days and night to keep this project afloat.

That's hardcore. She deserves respect for her hard work and contribution.

Re:There is more to this story...

[AmiMoJo]

Indeed, without her hard work and monetary contributions there would be exactly zero machines available that can run completely free software.

Re:There is more to this story...

[Kjella]

It seems Leah created a project, joined with GNU, then decided to separate from the GNU, and Stallman is talking as if Leah can't go back to her original project. Is that normal? It seems borderline abusive to me. "Oh, you want to leave? Well, I'm going to make sure I tell everyone publicly that you have my permission, because I am the one in power, and you are lucky that I am letting you go."

Seems completely normal to me. If Oracle unilaterally sent out a press release that OpenOffice has left Apache and is back to being a Oracle project and Apache objected saying you can't just decide that we'd be ready to burn Larry Ellison at the stake. I don't know the truth of the allegations, but whether they're true or false she's clearly a major drama queen taking every opportunity to be butthurt. That leads me to question how much the person fired was fired for bring a trans person and how much she's just projecting that it must really be because that person is transsexual.

Re:There is more to this story...

[at_slashdot]

That's not what it sounds to me, it's more like "I leave and you cannot use my package in GNU anymore" which can't be done because you cannot dictate to the organization you are leaving what to use and since the package is GPLed everybody is free to use it, Stallman just clarified that he removed the package from GNU not because she asked, he specifically made the point that if they wanted they could have kept it (that's one reason why he write GPL and established FSF, for people to be able to use the code as they wish), but because of other considerations.

Re:There is more to this story...

[fahrbot-bot]

I don't know much about the situation, but look at this quote:

[The Libreboot maintainer] Leah Rowe has even spent in excess of 100,000 USD of her own money to have new hardware ported to both coreboot and libreboot, to further the cause. She has spent countless sleepness days and night to keep this project afloat.

That's hardcore. She deserves respect for her hard work and contribution.

If it's true. (I'm not saying it's untrue, just that it's an unsubstantiated, unverified claim.)

Re:There is more to this story...

[phantomfive]

If it's true. (I'm not saying it's untrue, just that it's an unsubstantiated, unverified claim.)

We don't really gain much either way from doubting it, and it is substantiated that she has put a lot of time and effort into the project. So from that alone she deserves respect.

Re:There is more to this story...

[fahrbot-bot]

If it's true. (I'm not saying it's untrue, just that it's an unsubstantiated, unverified claim.)

We don't really gain much either way from doubting it, and it is substantiated that she has put a lot of time and effort into the project. So from that alone she deserves respect.

I agree but... From what I've read here (and other places) Leah wrote those statements herself (in the third person, for some reason) and self-made claims should always be viewed with a certain skepticism. The initial release of the software was in Dec 2013 (three years ago). Spending $100k of personal money over such a short time period is a feat of dedication and, if true, deserves respect, but it seems a little dubious - unless she's really well off financially. As such, the rest of her emotional self commentary is also a little suspect as mere puffery - especially given the charged context of the FSF / Libreboot thing. That's all I'm saying.

Re:There is more to this story...

[Anonymous Coward]

If it's true. (I'm not saying it's untrue, just that it's an unsubstantiated, unverified claim.)

We don't really gain much either way from doubting it, and it is substantiated that she has put a lot of time and effort into the project. So from that alone she deserves respect.

We just have the possibility of the truth to gain.

From what I've read, Leah's contributions have been limited mostly to writing some documentation, removing binary blobs, and creating build tools to ease maintenance. I think all useful contributions to open source software are praiseworthy, but I'm also a big fan of the truth. Did the maintainer of libreboot spend $100k of their own money and spend "countless sleepless nights" to "keep the project afloat" or didn't they? Maybe, but the thing you quoted sounds very over exaggerated to me, and I don't see why we should assume it's true until it is substantiated.

Re:There is more to this story...

[phantomfive]

Yeap. You are correct. But having a default position of being generous with respect is also good.

Re:There is more to this story...

[fahrbot-bot]

Yeap. You are correct. But having a default position of being generous with respect is also good.

Agreed. (and a good point for all parties involved in this FSF / Libreboot kerfuffle to remember.)

Happy New Year.

Re:There is more to this story...

[Pinky's Brain]

No project is forced to be GNU, you give up something to get something.

Re:There is more to this story...

[jdavidb]

It's Free Software ("Open Source"). After a project becomes a GNU project (or an IBM project, or a Microsoft project, or whatever), the license allows GNU to continue working on the project whether the original maintainer likes it or not. That's not abusive.

The original maintainer can quit working with GNU, the original maintainer can keep working on the original branch of the software, both sides can claim they are the original and the other is the fork, and there's nothing wrong with any of that. In fact it's beautiful and wonderful and helps us all.

Re: There is more to this story...

[Phillip2]

This isn't actually true. Not all GNU projects have copyright assigned (although many of them do).

The point is that GNU is trying to build a coherent system. If it takes a project it will sometimes continue with it, even if the people who originally developed decide that they no longer want it to be part of GNU. In this case, as RMS says, this was not the right route because libreboot had not been part of GNU for long (so removing it causes no issues), nor did they have anyone who wanted to maintain it as part of the GNU policy.

If you think that this is weird, it is one of the cornerstone freedoms. Likewise, you could take any GNU project, and create a competitor with a different name today, using their code. It's happened before.

Re:There is more to this story...

[nedlohs]

Because the FSF decides what is and isn't a "GNU package". It has to be "free software" but that's a restriction they've imposed upon themselves (for obvious reasons, it'd be stupid not to).

Re:There is more to this story...

[Demena]

Machines and custom chips are expensive. I can see that money spent. But she still has the machines.

Re:There is more to this story...

[bluegutang]

If she's telling the truth there.

Melodrama

[dinfinity]

The Libreboot page is filled with shitloads of rancor concerning the GNU project and the FSF (which, by its victimized tone, I'm afraid to say doesn't make the maintainer's side of the story more trustworthy).
I can easily see why the FSF isn't sorry to see her go. They're probably cutting all ties with the project just to minimize the amount of further drama.

Read it and cringe:
- https://libreboot.org/why-not-...
- https://libreboot.org/gnu-insu...

She even talks about herself in the third person, even though it's obvious to everybody that she is the one writing it.

Re:Melodrama

[Ferocitus]

John Cooper Clarke - Some cunt used the N word
https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

Re:Melodrama

[wisnoskij]

That is the weirdest way to write.
Not only does Leah Rowe talk about Leah Rowe in the third person, but she has companies talk in the first person.

"Libreboot witnessed this when it left GNU. The GNU project resisted it. Had libreboot stayed and integrated with GNU even more, then it would have been very difficult to leave."

Re:Melodrama

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you actually read Stalman's other works other GNU? He is about as far left as you can get. If you got him thinking you are a loon job you might just be one.

Re:Melodrama

[Anonymous Coward]

To be far, the FSF did issue a public statement: https://www.fsf.org/news/free-software-foundation-statement

Although it is our usual policy not to comment publicly on internal personnel matters for privacy reasons, we felt it necessary to state unequivocally that the allegations made in that email are untrue.

I doubt there are more than a handful of people on Slashdot (since we know FSF folks do hang out here) who know the actual truth of the matter. Given that, this is purely a he/she/xe said situation.

For me, I'm taking the accuser's story it with a grain of salt.

Re:Melodrama

[Anonymous Coward]

Related:
http://zammit.org/libreboot-screwup.html

Re:Melodrama

[thegarbz]

I can easily see why the FSF isn't sorry to see her go.

Really, because their actions since September show the exact opposite.

Re:Melodrama

[DamonHD]

FWIW I think that companies (and clubs etc) are collective nouns and therefore singular.

* Microsoft is known for a rather off-hand attitude to security in the past.
* England is a football team that never quite makes it to the top.
* 10 Downing Street said yesterday through its spokesperson that ...
* A club/team/company does X

However:
* The greenhorns that Microsoft used to hire had never been bitten by others' bad code so they didn't understand.
* England's players are quite decent.
* 10 Downing Street's spokespeople said "Where there's muck there's brass."
* A club's/team's/company's members/players/staff do things.

Rgds

Damon

Re:Melodrama

[dinfinity]

No, you are an asshole by immediately starting to attack me personally, accusing me of things I never did and denying me the right to speak my opinion.

Think about that and how that makes me feel.
Yeah, it's hard to look in that mirror, isn't it?

Re: Melodrama

[orlanz]

Well, projects don't just get to leave if they choose. People are welcome to go whenever they want. For a project, an assessment needs to be done if all contributors (copyright holders) wish to leave. Also, the software is GPL, it leaving would only impact future versions.

So the Foundation needs to decide if they want to close out the project, continue under another maintainer, or fork it. Normally, if the license is becoming more restrictive, software like this should be forked. If license stays similar and is compatible, then no point in forking. But here the Foundation also must have thought the drama wasn't worth it and had to let it go and sever all ties. Four months to decide & respond with an OFFICIAL response to an important project leaving is... kind of fast.

As for the rebuttal worry, that's just more drama. Companies should not discuss employee issues in open public. That is not in the best interest in any of the parties. I am sure a through investigation is happening of the related but separate _discrimination_ accusation. They would be opening up to more discrimination lawsuits if they acted too quickly, or even talk about it. Leah is welcome to her opinion and freedom to choose whom she does business with. But her site comes off very unprofessional and too defensive. Everyone is not out to get her. The FSF and in association the GNU is not discriminatory against people like her. One instance does not condemn the collective. Melodrama nicely summarizes it.

In her posting, she should have stated her opinion, reasons for it, and moved on. She should have left names out, tit for tat responses to the www, and over explanation of transgenders & the situation. Then this serious accusation can be given the proper attention it needs. I think her posting the way it's written, chips off a little at the discussion.

Re: Melodrama

[AmiMoJo]

In terms of leaving, the main issue was the services that GNU was providing. The mailing lists, the source code hosting. To keep development cohesive it was requested that people stop using them and use the official Libreboot resources.

Note that no-one was calling for a public discussion of the details of what happened, merely for the FSF to take action over it.

Re:Melodrama

[rochrist]

Uh, no. That's not what this about. : https://libreboot.org/gnu/ [libreboot.org] Try reading before speaking.

Re:Melodrama

[rochrist]

Fuck off, mouth breathing moron.

Re:Melodrama

[Demena]

My reaction would be - OOOh! Maybe someone interesting to talk to...

Re:Melodrama

[NotAPK]

This needs more attention.

Unfortunately, the circus has now died down, and most of the enraged posters above will not read this far down to be informed. Sigh :(

They.

[lucm]

And this:

When the transgender employee filed a complaint, they were fired because the complaint was seen as troublemaking

Is this correct? Is "they" the correct pronoun to use for a transgender person? Are both his/her original and updated gender not good enough? Or maybe that person just identifies as plural?

What the fuck, people. What the fuck.

Re:They.

[Anonymous Coward]

"They" is considered to be an appropriate gender neutral pronoun by some grammarians. It's not ideal, but it's better than some of the atrocities that are sometimes proposed.

Re:They.

[Lord Crc]

When the options "He", "She", and "It" may be deemed offensive, do you have a better option?

How about "they were" -> "the employee was", as in

When the transgender employee filed a complaint, the employee was fired because the complaint was seen as troublemaking

Re:They.

[Orgasmatron]

I blame the push in the 70s, 80s etc to wipe out "he" as the generic pronoun. That established "they" as the pronoun to use when the person wasn't specifically and blatantly a man or a woman.

I don't see the situation as stable. Lots of Gen X, Y, Z people are pissed at what their parents allowed the "educators" to get away with. As "it" catches on as the preferred pronoun for instances like this, I'm guessing that the people who wanted to get rid of "he" are going to be kicking itselves.

Re:They.

[dunkelfalke]

How is it better than using passive voice?

Re:They.

[Jesus_666]

Wasn't that just a reversal of the earlier push to establish gender-neutral "he"? Gender-neutral singular "they" has been in use since the 14th century. Gender-neutral "he" came about in the 18th century but never entirely displaced "they". Depending on which style guide you used, either or both would be considered correct.

What's happening today is simply that gender-neutral "he" is falling out of use since it's ambiguous and has led to interpretation nonsense when people weren't clear about whether a use of "he" was supposed to be gender-neutral or not.

Re:They.

[serviscope_minor]

You're a right plonker, and here's why:

What the fuck, people. What the fuck.

There's not a man I meet but doth salute me
As if I were their well-acquainted friend

What the fuck Billy Shapespeare, What the fuck. Slashdot poster "lucm" says it's not OK to use "they" with singular antecedents. Now go and fix your "Comedy of Errors" before Mr Lucm mocks you some more. Oh and Austen? Dickens? George Bernard Shaw? You all need to fall in line too, because some rando on the internet says you can't use "they" as a singular, especially when you don't want to specify gender.

Re:Way to ignore the Discrimination claims

[Anonymous Coward]

And the maintainer of libreboot is going to be dispassionate on the subject? Right...

She was hired with the trans gender on the application form. So not likely they're bigoted against trans, is it.

But the radical left will like it because (a) it's "Tech is sexist!" (b) "Trans is better", and the right will like it because (a) "GPL is a cancer!" (b) "Stallman is a leftie hippie!". So it's really going to be something to unite both the tumblr intersectionalists with the trump tweeters. At least there's SOME up side: united in snide.

They got it wrong in the summary

[lucm]

It's the other way around.

GNU and FSF do not belong in the libreboot community at this point.

https://libreboot.org/gnu-insu...

Let's hope the rich and vibrant libreboot community can thrive again now that the transphobic, intolerant GNU and FSF can no longer oppress them.

Re:They got it wrong in the summary

[Raenex]

transphobic

Figured it would be tranny drama when I saw the phrase, "her decision to make".

Re:They got it wrong in the summary

[Raenex]

Oh noes, I used a no longer politically acceptable word for the latest "progressive" cause du jour. I better report myself to the nearest re-education center. I'll take that time to practice my preferred pronoun list, too. Thanks so much, AC!

wat

[lucm]

Here's what that Leah person has to say about "the sexist" RMS:

For instance, he once described women who have never used GNU Emacs as EMACS virgins. Leah is an emacs virgin.
Leah Rowe is a woman, and she recommends Vim. Her .vimrc is on vimuser.org.
Personal statement from Leah: RMS's comments about emacs virgins is especially offensive to me. Not only is it sexist in general (and directed at me, because I don't use emacs), but also offensive towards my sexuality. His statement implies that men are supposed to have sex with virgin women, and that women only lose their virginity to men. To this day, I've only ever been in lesbian relationships, although I am bi. I lost my virginity to a woman. I find it extremely insulting when someone assumes that I only like men, or that I'm generally interested in men. The woman that I lost my virginity to also happens to be a Vim user, and she is indeed an emacs virgin, like me.

https://libreboot.org/why-not-...

If that person's thinking was a piece of code I wouldn't even try to debug it.

Re:wat

[Toonol]

That is not a quote that a sane person could utter.

Re:wat

[0100010001010011]

His statement implies that men are supposed to have sex with virgin women, and that women only lose their virginity to men.

Where? Where does he ever say that in the one line he stated? He doesn't ever mention a gender.

Additionally the dictionary has multiple definitions of Virgin.

1. a person who has never had sexual intercourse.

2. an unmarried girl or woman.

3. Ecclesiastical. an unmarried, religious woman, especially a saint.

4. the Virgin, Mary, the mother of Christ.

5. Informal. any person who is uninitiated, uninformed, or the like:
He's still a virgin as far as hard work is concerned.

6. a female animal that has never copulated.

7. an unfertilized insect.

8. (initial capital letter) Astronomy, Astrology. the constellation or sign of Virgo.

Adjective:

9. being a virgin:
a virgin martyr.

10. of, relating to, or characteristic of a virgin:
virgin modesty.

11. pure; unsullied; undefiled:
virgin snow.

12. first:
the senator's virgin speech.
13. without admixture, alloy, or modification:
virgin gold.

14. not previously exploited, cultivated, tapped, or used:
virgin timberlands; virgin wool.

15. without experience of; not previously exposed to:
a mind virgin to such sorrows.

16. Informal. being a mixed drink resembling a specific cocktail but made without any alcoholic ingredient:
a virgin piña colada.

17. Zoology. not fertilized.

18. (of a metal) made directly from ore by smelting, rather than from scrap.

19. noting the oil obtained, as from olives, by the first pressing without the application of heat.

Re:wat

[Anonymous Coward]

A mentally unstable dickgirl, what a surprise.

I'm guessing they'd rather dump her and her useless code than try to put up with the rat's nest of fucking crazy between "her" ears.

Re:wat

[AmiMoJo]

If you had bothered to google "EMACS virgins" you might have understood what she was talking about.

Long story short, RMS gave a keynote speech where he described women who had never used EMACS as virgins, and said it was the sacred duty of male members of the Church of EMACS to "relieve them of their virginity".

I think it's a bad joke, poorly judged, and based on stereotypes that are harmful. You can decide if mentioning it now is helpful or not... Rowe mentions it as evidence that RMS and the FSF don't seem to be aware of some of the issues LGBT people face, or even what many consider fairly basic issues around using sexual jokes in a keynote speech at a conference.

Re:wat

[jcr]

RMS gave a keynote speech where he described women who had never used EMACS as virgins,

I remember having a rather heated discussion with Don Hopkins once about whether teaching secretaries to use EMACS was the Right Thing To Do(tm). As I recall, he was vehemently opposed to WISYWYG editing programs like MacWrite.

-jcr

Re:wat

[ClickOnThis]

Here is a link that regarding Stallman's use of the joke, and a link to Stallman's explanation.

https://geekfeminism.org/2009/...
https://mail.gnome.org/archive...

Re:wat

[Anonymous Coward]

Long story short, the first links in a google search are feminist blogs,which want controversy to generate traffic and outrage they can monetise.

The entire first page is people partially quoting, and not the speech itself.

After several linkclicks:

Then if you become a hacker you can celebrate that by having a foobar mitzvah, a ceremony in which the new hacker stands in front of the assembled congregation of hackers and chants through the lines of the system source code. And we also have the cult of the virgin of emacs. The virgin of emacs is any female who has not yet learned how to use emacs. And in the church of emacs we believe that taking her emacs virginity away is a blessed act.

The church of emacs has certain advantages compared with with other churches I won't mention. For instance, to be a saint in the church of emacs does not require celibacy. Although for some of us hackers we wouldn't notice the difference. But it does require living a life of moral purity. You must exorcise whatever proprietary evil operating systems have posessed the computers under your control or set up for your use and then install a wholy free operating system and then only install free software on the system. If you make that vow and you live by it then you too will be a saint, and you too will have the right to wear a halo. If you can find one, because they don't make them any more.

---

Note the "does not require celibacy. Although for some of us hackers we wouldn't notice the difference"

Tell me, how can celibates actually fuck women and still remain celibate? Is this some sort of magical rape that you think occurs, amijo?

But this is orthogonal to this problem since RMS would have to be talking about females, not trans females, so it doesn't even connect to the issue of this trans woman getting fired (and note, her comments are not one that appear to come from a sane and rational human being looking at the world as it is, rather than what they insist it must be).

Or does the "exorcise whatever proprietary evil operating systems have posessed the computers under your control" intuit some sort of flowery hyperbole not to be taken as literal throughout the whole "St Ignatious says" piece?

No, like christian apologists and evangelisers on youtube, you see as literal the bits you WANT to be literal, and the bits that are uncomfortable are allegorical. Because things must be as you expect them to be. A world other than your understanding is terrifying to you, and you don't know your place or how to control people.

Re:wat

[Blue23]

This is totally off-topic, but how is it that there seem to be so many people who live their lives in an exclusively gendered way (ie, exclusively lesbian relationships, as in the quote) but then make the claim that they are actually bi?

Picture a person who has never yet been in a relationship yet feels attraction. Do you see any problem with them describing themselves with a sexual orientation, even though they have not consummated their choice by engaging in a relationship?

I imagine that the author feels attraction to both men and women and as such describes herself as bi, even though she has not yet had the opportunity to engage in a relationship with a man.

Re:wat

[AmiMoJo]

He said it in the speech he gave at the conference. That's why I said you needed to Google it. She was referring to an event you clearly were not familiar with.

Transcription here: http://mjg59.livejournal.com/1...

"And we also have the cult of the virgin of emacs. The virgin of emacs is any female who has not yet learned how to use emacs. And in the church of emacs we believe that taking her emacs virginity away is a blessed act."

Re:wat

[swb]

Picture a person who has never yet been in a relationship yet feels attraction. Do you see any problem with them describing themselves with a sexual orientation, even though they have not consummated their choice by engaging in a relationship?

I imagine that the author feels attraction to both men and women and as such describes herself as bi, even though she has not yet had the opportunity to engage in a relationship with a man.

I buy that line of reasoning for someone who's 20 years old, but Rowe is what, late 20s - early 30s?

What does "not had the opportunity" really mean at that age? It sounds to me like a series of conscious decisions not to have that opportunity or an actual lack of interest.

I can completely understand why someone with any kind of "activist" bent to them would want to identify as bi. It's absolutely the safest political choice and prevents being boxed in ideologically.

Re:wat

[0100010001010011]

But I repeat myself. Where does it say anything about it having to be a male to cause her to 'lose it'?

And in the church of emacs we believe that taking her emacs virginity away is a blessed act."

Does the Church of emacs have a gender rule? Is there a reason Women can't be in the Church of emacs? Your quote expanded on nothing.

Re: wat

[orlanz]

Dude, where have you been? GNU is extremely important to RMS; to a religious extent. The freedom he talks about has no room for compromise. Many don't agree with him but he doesn't expect them to. He stays on the far edge because the principle must.

Re:wat

[lucm]

I imagine that the author feels attraction to both men and women and as such describes herself as bi, even though she has not yet had the opportunity to engage in a relationship with a man.

In the quote she explicitly states that she has lost her virginity to a female vim user.

Re:wat

[Gavagai80]

So the vi/emacs wars have finally escalated to this... there's just too much passion involved in defending one's chosen text editor to expect either side to act decently.

Re:wat

[Dutch Gun]

double entendre
doobl äntändr,dbl äntändr/
noun
noun: double entendre; plural noun: double entendres

        a word or phrase open to two interpretations, one of which is usually risqué or indecent.

I think perhaps you're being a bit intentionally obtuse, since it's obviously only works as a joke because of what's implied by using that term. No, it's not the end of the world or something to pillory Stallman for, but I think it's pretty tone-deaf to not even acknowledge the possibility that these sorts of jokes could make some women feel a bit uncomfortable or marginalized. And yes, incidentally, he specifically described "EMACS virgins" as women.

Granted, GP's quote also sounds like a lunatic rant, because I sure as hell don't want to hear about anyone's first sexual experience or sexual preferences in response to a sexist joke.

Re:wat

[Gavagai80]

It's safe to assume that the only reason to narrow it to only female and not male emacs virgins is in order to tell the overwhelmingly-male emacs evangelicals that spreading emacs is as good as sex. It's a stupid joke. RMS was no doubt generalizing to appeal to the most common group of his audience in that moment (heterosexual men), which isn't a big deal, although I understand and respect the right of other groups to be irritated by it (particularly women who are being appropriated as a reward for the crude joke).

Re:wat

[AmiMoJo]

He doesn't say that. She doesn't claim he said that either. Look, you even quoted her not saying it:

"His statement implies"

And all this arguing is just an attempt to avoid the actual issue.

Re:wat

[serviscope_minor]

Does the Church of emacs have a gender rule?

Yes:

The virgin of emacs is any female who has not yet learned how to use emacs. And in the church of emacs we believe that taking her emacs virginity away is a blessed act.

You can only be an emacs virgin if you're female. Apparently a male vi-hard neckbeard like myself is exempted from this ritual/rule because of my gender. Pity those who are not.

Re:wat

[serviscope_minor]

What does "not had the opportunity" really mean at that age?

Uh I'd guess it means "not had the opportunity". It's not that complicated.

It sounds to me like a series of conscious decisions

Um so? People in monogamous make a conscious opportunity to not have sex with other people. That doesn't mean they aren't attracted to them. And colloquially it would be reasonable to describe not acting on someone expressing interest in you when you're already in a monogamous relationship as "not having the opportunity".

People on this forum pick the oddest of nits.

Re:wat

[Anonymous Coward]

I hate RMS with a passion, but it's pretty clear he wasn't even doing that. The phrase "Emacs virgin" has been in use and applied - mostly to men - for decades. Then he dares say it to the kind of woman who gets uppity about such things and suddenly it's a term only used about females. This is quite clearly not the case, and anyone who has any appreciation for the history of that phrase will immediately understand.

It's doubly ironic because it's usually aimed at young nerdy men who most likely are sexually inexperienced. That's why it's gained traction in the past. It's so not a jibe against women or an assumption about a woman's sexuality that I don't even know where to start with that claim.

Re:wat

[0100010001010011]

No, that is a rule on an emacs VIRGIN.

Once you are no longer an emacs Virgin you are in the church of emacs. Therefore you can have a female taking the virginity of a emacs virgin. There is nothing in any of his statements that says a member of the church of emacs is male only.

Who cares

[ArchieBunker]

It probably only works on a handful of systems that are way outdated at this point.

Re:Who cares

[AmiMoJo]

If you want a fully free computer, with modern hardware and availability, it's your only choice. It's always the only option if you want a really secure computer, because thanks to some recent work you can now physically write-protect the boot ROM and secure your system from the very first instruction executed.

Libreboot is also used by Chromebooks.

It's incredibly important.

Re:Who cares

[thejynxed]

We've been able to write-protect the boot ROM for decades, as well as the BIOS. My motherboard for instance, has removable jumpers for both the programmable BIOS and a Linux-based boot ROM. I don't actually get the point of Coreboot nor Libreboot if that is a core part of their major functionality.

Re:Who cares

[AmiMoJo]

You replace a binary blob with code you compiled yourself, and then write protect it to prevent other people from interfering with it. You can use your own crypto keys to stop other people interfering with your BIOS or your OS kernel.

Even write protecting just the boot ROM isn't enough, you need to replace the contents. Otherwise there are still option ROMs and potential backdoors.

Re:Who cares

[thejynxed]

I can already do that, and have been able to do that since the 1980's (although back then I spent much more time with a soldering iron to achieve this effect), which leads back to my original point. I can get wanting to make it an easier process via software, but it will never trump being able to block a rewrite/flash via a local hardware method and may unintentionally just open a few extra doors that you weren't expecting to be open (as is the case in any software based solution).

If it offers pairing with a read-only keyfob to verify encryption keys and file integrity of the ROMs at boot as a layer on top of the physical one, then it would indeed prove useful in the case of a workstation.

Then again, this software might be very useful for microsystems such as servers built using Raspberry Pis or roll-your-own routers that don't always inherently offer hardware jumpers to protect the flashable BIOS and other ROM areas.

One thing I have noticed though, is that some hardware makers have been moving towards implementing EFI/BIOS that the end-user has no control over whatsoever outside of changing some limited set of internal settings. It has signed updates pushed to it by them, and some of them have been following the examples of mobile chipset developers by including fuses that they blow to prevent tampering, meaning you are stuck with whatever version they put on the machine before blowing those fuses.

Guess that means

[subk]

the next version of Libreboot won't have a splash image depicting a penguin hugging a gnu.

Re:Guess that means

[Gavagai80]

I'm looking forward to the animated splash screen of a gnu being beaten to a pulp (and the ensuing animal rights controversy).

Re:it's the guy who ignored the real reason...

[ClickOnThis]

Very informative, but you should cite your source.

Re:Is this /. post a coverup of the real story?

[allo]

i recommend reading the mailing list thread. Especially the statements from stallman are very calm and peaceful. I would have thought he would be more angry and linus torvalds would have smashed her for what she did on the ML. Stallman seems to be great at diplomacy.

Coreboot vs Libreboot

[unixisc]

What is the difference b/w Coreboot and Libreboot? Why does the GNU project need both?

Re:Coreboot vs Libreboot

[jbn-o]

What is the difference b/w Coreboot and Libreboot?

Libreboot is a Coreboot distribution which contains only free software. This difference is akin to why GNU Linux-libre (a fork of Linus Torvalds' Linux kernel) exists. GNU Linux-libre strips out the non-free blobs from the upstream Linux kernel and distributes the rest (possibly with other modifications related to doing this job which aren't necessary to get into to understand the point I'm making here). I recommend that you look up the respective project websites and reading about them.

Why does the GNU project need both?

Where did you get this idea? I don't recall anyone authoritative saying anything like this. One can boot GNU/Linux using Libreboot on a number of systems (rms runs such a device, for instance, and I'd be surprised if the FSF's systems don't run Libreboot).

Re:Coreboot vs Libreboot

[unixisc]

My point was that the GNU project has both Coreboot and Libreboot. So which of these 2 would they have preferred, had Libreboot stayed on? And Coreboot is, afaik, GPL 3, right? Or is it locked at GPL 2.1 due to compatibility w/ Linux?

Also, does Coreboot have any 'non-free' blobs the way standard Linux does?

Re:Coreboot vs Libreboot

[Anonymous Coward]

and I'd be surprised if the FSF's systems don't run Libreboot

I'd be surprised if most of them did. Have you seen the compatibility list for Libreboot?

Impossible!

[nospam007]

If this "reasonable agreement" catches on, it will be the end of the lawyer business.

Regressive Leftist?

[rsilvergun]

What exactly are leftists regressing too? Or is this another case of someone from the right wing trying to paint the left with their own brush ala Karl Rove?

And WTF else should the FSF have done? Yeah, the author of libreroot over reacted and is likely a bit of a nutter. That's no reason for you to take pot shots and the FSF, liberalism and anti-discrimination policies in general. Or did you think nobody would notice that little tidbit in the rest of your post?

Re:Regressive Leftist?

[_KiTA_]

What exactly are leftists regressing too? Or is this another case of someone from the right wing trying to paint the left with their own brush ala Karl Rove?

First off, I'm a liberal. Voted for Hillary, although my heart belonged to Bernie. I'm not afraid of Trump, though, so I'm apparently not a very good liberal.

Second. Regressive Left is a play on the term "Progressives." Because the authoritarian post-modernist critical theory (read: marxist) nutjobs who are behind the Progressive movement are anything BUT progressive.

They want to set up segregation again, this time under the theory that they'll choose who gets the good water fountains. http://www.thecollegefix.com/p...

They want to discard the magna carta and the foundations of our legal system -- because some pink haired "Gender Diversity Officer" should have more of a say than the police in rape accusations.
http://www.indystar.com/story/...

They want to redefine terms like "racism" so that certain protected classes are allowed to be racist, because they don't know any better. Because the people suggesting this are racists. https://www.rawstory.com/2016/...

We just saw the US population as well as the UK reject this insanity. The rest of the EU appears to be following right behind. And rather than do any form of introspection and start pushing out some of these toxic, problematic marxist elements, instead we get unhinged conspiracy theories about L33t Russian Haxx0rs.

God save us, because the left has learned absolutely nothing.

(Fun fact: Note that the CIA also confirmed all those emails were true, but we're not supposed to care that the DNC is more corrupt than the GOP now. Nor are we supposed to care that Trump actually bamboozled the GOP into giving him a standing ovation when he talked about protecting Gay Rights. Remember, Literally Hitler.)

Re:Regressive Leftist?

[GameboyRMH]

First off, I'm a liberal. Voted for Hillary, although my heart belonged to Bernie. I'm not afraid of Trump, though, so I'm apparently not a very good liberal.

Haha you sure aren't! You sound exactly like a centipede (member of the alt-right). Why would someone who is socially about 16 lightyears to the right of anyone with a D beside their name have any interest in Hillary or Bernie? Maybe you're fiscally liberal, but there's some conflict between being fiscally liberal and socially conservative, which is why it's a vanishingly rare combination.

Re:Regressive Leftist?

[jwhyche]

First off, I'm a liberal. Voted for Hillary, although my heart belonged to Bernie. I'm not afraid of Trump, though, so I'm apparently not a very good liberal.

If you're not a very good liberal, then I'm not a very good conservative. You seem to be a liberal that uses his brain, which we need more of. Like we need more conservatives that use their brains. Good liberals and good conservatives need to realize we are all in the same boat now and work together.

An not all conservatives are thrilled that Trump is in the Whitehouse. I know I'm not. Kind of like waking up and finding Captain Bligh is at the helm.

But like you said, I'm not afraid of him. If he tries to do some stupid and illegal shit, both conservatives and liberals will need to work together to hand him his walking papers.

Re:Regressive Leftist?

[Orgasmatron]

Bless you, sir, for doing God's work.

We alt-right can't possibly be everywhere, so we count on the efforts of concerned progressives like yourself to spread our message. I'm happy to report that thanks to the hard work of thousands of people just like you, we pretty much have Trump's 2020 reelection locked in.

Re:Regressive Leftist?

[_KiTA_]

First off, I'm a liberal. Voted for Hillary, although my heart belonged to Bernie. I'm not afraid of Trump, though, so I'm apparently not a very good liberal.

Haha you sure aren't! You sound exactly like a centipede (member of the alt-right). Why would someone who is socially about 16 lightyears to the right of anyone with a D beside their name have any interest in Hillary or Bernie? Maybe you're fiscally liberal, but there's some conflict between being fiscally liberal and socially conservative, which is why it's a vanishingly rare combination.

You know what, returning this one.

Considering that Hillary Clinton is extremely hard right, more right wing (but less authoritarian) than Trump, yeah, I guess I'm just a bad liberal for being upset that the Dems put forth a Neo-Conservative candidate in defiance of their base.

If I was following my political views, I'd have voted Jill Stein. Every Liberal would have. Since it's quite clear the DNC has lost the benefit of the doubt -- the "Russian Hackers" conspiracy theory has proven this without a doubt -- I think I will next time.

That's the horrific thing that has to be scaring the DNC. They used to have a "Youth Wall" -- they could assume people under around 30 would support them no matter what. That may no longer be true -- and it may be why they were trying to hobble the growing New Right movement online by claiming outrageously stupid things like "Pepe's a white nationalist!"

Remember, Hillary was openly calling for war with Russia (via no-fly zones in Syria). Trump got the GOP -- the GOP -- to give a standing ovation to the idea of protecting LGBT rights. But somehow he's Literally Hitler (tm) and going to set LGBT rights 30 years. Why? Because that's easier than admitting the Democrats have a problem.

Either way, again, thank you for being my new go to text macro version of this image.

http://imgur.com/az4WByY

Re:Regressive Leftist?

[Orgasmatron]

Considering that Hillary Clinton is extremely hard right, more right wing (but less authoritarian) than Trump,

I LOL'd.

This result is only possible by using very strange definitions for both axes, at least as Americans understand them. The whole site is effectively a version of your "Love & Hope" vs. "Far Right" image.

Re:Regressive Leftist?

[GameboyRMH]

Hahaha your movement's already unraveling because the neo-nazis that were pulling the strings in the background pulled a little too hard and heiled a little too publicly. Now you've got the "1488 crowd," the more toned-down white nationalists, and the garden-variety closet racists all fracturing away. You'll be lucky if Trump doesn't get himself impeached before 2020 anyway, and only his most hardcore supporters might want him back in when they see what he fails (and doesn't bother) to accomplish.

It looks like you elected a corporatocrat who doesn't care much for the riffraff's social concerns beyond playing to them to get elected.

Re:Regressive Leftist?

[GameboyRMH]

I'm glad you expanded your post because I don't really get what that image is saying. Maybe it's too US-centric for my understanding.

Trump's political positions are mostly a magic 8-ball and it was certainly too early to place him squarely on any political spectrum before the election. He frequently flips his stated positions on a whim. I think we can only judge him by his actions, so we'll have to see what he does when he's finished assembling what appears to be a corporatocratic government. He's putting a fox in every henhouse. I think he could be assembling easily the most fiscally right-wing government in living memory.

To argue that he's fiscally further left than Hillary requires a lot of cherry-picking and optimism, especially now that we've seen some of his actions.

One thing he doesn't waver on is a general tendency toward extreme authoritarianism and extreme social backwardness. I shouldn't have to elaborate on his history of racism and his many socially backward proposals. He's chosen Mike Pence, a leading proponent of "pray the gay away" programs and "Jim Queer" laws, as his VP. He's chosen Steve Bannon and Jeff Sessions for his cabinet. He's far to the right of Hillary on most social issues.

And so are you, which might explain why you're OK with Trump, but not why you'd have any interest in Hillary or Bernie or why you call yourself a liberal while calling the left regressive over wacko fringe college politics, using "SJW," the modern general-purpose descendant of "n****r-lover," (side note: Slashdot now triggers the lameness filter if you use the N-word even once) and otherwise spewing what looks like standard alt-right rhetoric. It's bizarre.

Democrats have a problem, sure, obviously, but I'm not too interested in discussing that. We probably agree on most things there.

BTW, the alt-right at the time was indeed broadly a white nationalist movement. It was a hodgepodge of different factions led by a core of neo-nazis. The factions have since split up. I hate to link to Breitbart, but I think this article gives a good overview of the state of things at the time, straight from the horse's mouth. Its only mistake in analyzing the movement is that like many centipedes did, it mistook the neo-nazis for unfortunate hangers-on rather than the the people pulling the strings behind the scenes.

Re:Regressive Leftist?

[GameboyRMH]

Not at all. Liberal (in the US) means a person who is fiscally and socially liberal. I've pointed out that he's not socially liberal at all. He's as different from a liberal as a conservative is from a libertarian.

Re:Regressive Leftist?

[Orgasmatron]

You are a natural at this!

Re:Regressive Leftist?

[Demena]

Yes, but! Americans clearly do not understand the terms when outsiders read their dicussions. Please do not lol at this because to almost everyone outside of America, Hilary is extremely right wing. An authoritarian and a war monger.

The only thing to disagree with in the statement made "Considering that Hillary Clinton is extremely hard right, more right wing (but less authoritarian) than Trump," is the "less authoritarian".

There are no democracies, no communisms that I am aware of although many claim one of those. What is important for a country is its constitution and respect for it, rather than the actual executives and their methodologies.

Re:Regressive Leftist?

[Pseudonym]

Trump's political positions are mostly a magic 8-ball and it was certainly too early to place him squarely on any political spectrum before the election. He frequently flips his stated positions on a whim.

You, sir or madam, have it exactly right.

Trump is silly putty, taking the shape of whatever container he is in yet fracturing easily with the slightest impact. He is a Rorschach test; you see what you want to see in him. He is a snake oil salesman, saying whatever it will take to make the deal, then laughing at you for believing him.

Re:Regressive Leftist?

[GameboyRMH]

Well if you're socially liberal and fiscally conservative, you're a libertarian, very different from a liberal. If you're socially conservative and fiscally liberal you're a...unicorn? I don't think there's a name for that. It seems that such views aren't common. But they're as different from "true" liberals as libertarians.

After some searching around it seems there is no name for this ideology.

You don't know how hormones work, do you?

[rsilvergun]

or what it actually fucking means to be transgender? There are people who have too much or too little of what makes us one or the other sex. They are _literally_ transgender.

I know a few members of the LGBT community and the last fucking thing they wanted was attention. They kept their heads as low as they could for most of their lives to avoid having them smashed in by people like yourself. Your B.S. is more of the "They choose to be LGBT" crap. Nobody chooses that life. You get shit on non-stop by everyone; _especially_ your family. You spend most of your childhood getting the shit kicked out of your.

Finally your opinion is bad for you too. Hating on LGBTs, like hating on Blacks, is just yet another way the ruling class gives you an outlet for your frustrations instead of better pay and a better lifestyle. It's a buffer to keep the working class at each other's throats instead of theirs. They've been doing it for centuries. Grow the fuck up, wake the fuck up and realize who your real enemies are. You've got more important things to worry about than whether some dude thinks like a chick.

And since fucking when did /. mod trolls up? This guy got up to +4 for God's sake... Can we get some mods in here?

Re:You don't know how hormones work, do you?

[aepervius]

"There are people who have too much or too little of what makes us one or the other sex. " I think you are confusing transgender and intersex. Basically intersex means you do not fit the exact definition of XX female/XY male, e.g. a female XXY (Klinefelter). Transgender on the other hand , is properly defined by the GP, and people in such case really have gender disphoria, and is a category in the DMS V.

The issue is certainly confused by the fact that in some case, male were operated at birth and had gender reassignment, are sometimes called colloquially transgender, when properly it would be intersex, as they are missing (often) the psychological gender disphoria. One of the most well known example was a kid which had his penis removed at birth (botched circumcision) was tried to be raised as a female, but never felt like it and finally suicided at about 40 (John/Joan case - David Reimer).

Re:You don't know how hormones work, do you?

[Anonymous Coward]

And since fucking when did /. mod trolls up? This guy got up to +4 for God's sake... Can we get some mods in here?

He's not a troll. He put forth a reasoned argument for his position, complete with links. You didn't. Instead, you attacked him and assigned motives; you called his position "hating on LGBTs" but nowhere in his posts does he express any kind of hatred, nor is it even implied in his words.

This is one of the most annoying thing about today's SJW babies -- and one of the biggest reasons why society is finally fed up and not taking any more of it -- everything to them is about "hate." Anything they don't understand must be because of hate. People expressing opposing ideas or viewpoints are hateful. Must be so sad to live with such a disturbed worldview.

Re:You don't know how hormones work, do you?

[_KiTA_]

There are people who have too much or too little of what makes us one or the other sex. They are _literally_ transgender.

What you are speaking of in this case would be intersex, but besides that, no. They feel their gender is wrong. That's the definition of Gender Dysphoria. They are _literally_ suffering from Gender Dysphoria. That's a mental illness or disorder. One that's treated via therapy as well as transitioning.

Which we have already established because it is covered under insurance.

I know a few members of the LGBT community and the last fucking thing they wanted was attention. They kept their heads as low as they could for most of their lives to avoid having them smashed in by people like yourself. Your B.S. is more of the "They choose to be LGBT" crap. Nobody chooses that life. You get shit on non-stop by everyone; _especially_ your family. You spend most of your childhood getting the shit kicked out of your.

You heard it here ladies and gentlemen (and sorry, those are the only two genders): Calling Gender Dysphoria a mental illness - when it is a mental illness -- somehow means the following:

* You wish to physically assault and / or murder people suffering from this mental illness.
* You believe this mental illness is by choice, like no other mental illness in the history of the world.

If you question anything, even the most tiny part of the doctrine, you're tossed in with the most hateful people imaginable, because when you have an echo chamber you absolutely cannot have any windows in it.

Finally your opinion is bad for you too. Hating on LGBTs, like hating on Blacks, is just yet another way the ruling class gives you an outlet for your frustrations instead of better pay and a better lifestyle. It's a buffer to keep the working class at each other's throats instead of theirs. They've been doing it for centuries. Grow the fuck up, wake the fuck up and realize who your real enemies are. You've got more important things to worry about than whether some dude thinks like a chick.

I don't hate LGBTs, nor have I said anything to the effect. Any perceived bigotry is projection on your part. And I love the mention of the "ruling class" and "working class" stuff -- surefire codeword that I'm speaking with a Marxist.

Because that's one of the major takeaways from all the shit mentioned in this thread -- the attempts at "safe spaces," giving "normal" the magic word "cis," the demanding that special classes of people such as Blacks or Transgenders get special rights are the result of people taking the same failed Marxist ideas that have killed hundreds of millions of people and applying it to minorities.

Identity Politics is a scam. We aren't a hivemind and I owe you no apologies for what other people with the same traits as I have done, nor do I owe you or anyone a damned thing because of some superficial trait.

And since fucking when did /. mod trolls up? This guy got up to +4 for God's sake... Can we get some mods in here?

Sounds like you need some muscle over here!

Re:You don't know how hormones work, do you?

[mysidia]

You heard it here ladies and gentlemen (and sorry, those are the only two genders): Calling Gender Dysphoria a mental illness - when it is a mental illness -- somehow means the following:

* You wish to physically assault and / or murder people suffering from this mental illness.

* You believe this mental illness is by choice, like no other mental illness in the history of the world.

Because some folks have an agenda where they wish to call transgenderism, or people changing their genders as "Normal".

Just like it's normal for people to walk around with seeing-eye dogs and canes. Therefore, calling "Blindness" a disease shall henceforth be banned as well. And don't even think of causing nearsightedness or need to wear glasses as an illness.

Re:You don't know how hormones work, do you?

[Kkloe]

As the one above you claiming they "detect no hate", maybe if you both could learn on how to see how words are put in context when used.

He cleary starts with defining that the person has and using the words "mental illness\disorder", why do he bring them up, how does it adds to anything about the person beside using negative words(historically speaking both are seen very negatively when brought up) to make the character of the person look worse than hir is?
As he is using continually through his post those words you can see that he tries all the time to take down the person to be "mentally ill" and reinforce it, is it necessary?

This person is poisonous and clearly wants to put that person in such way that it would be hir against we.

And to myself "put down" someone, if you consider that a good post I would say you have a very skewed view of the world.

Re:You don't know how hormones work, do you?

[AmiMoJo]

He put forth a reasoned argument for his position, complete with links.

No, he set out to deliberately mislead. Compare his text to the content of the links - they are either shitty Reddit posts on well known troll boards, or they don't support what he is claiming at all.

This is a standard troll tactic. Make unfounded statements, throw in a few links that you know people probably won't check in any detail and pretend that your "argument" is well researched and supported by evidence.

He then goes on to misrepresent the medical profession's position on gender disphoria. It's not a mental illness, although it can and often does result in mental illness like depression when not properly treated. In parts of the world where it is considered a mental illness, it tends to be for political reasons such as getting insurance to cover treatment or to satisfy religious extremists.

everything to them is about "hate."

Indeed. Some people seem to think everything that is wrong is the fault of an SJW, and that all discrimination and bias is just SJW complaining and thus cannot possibly be real. It's the ultimate form of virtue signalling, because it legitimizes any and all behaviour, and complaining makes you an SJW Nazi.

Re:You don't know how hormones work, do you?

[AmiMoJo]

That's a mental illness or disorder. One that's treated via therapy as well as transitioning.

Which we have already established because it is covered under insurance.

You have it completely arse-about-face.

The treatment for mental illness is to treat illness caused by gender dysphoria. The dysphoria itself is not a mental illness. It's like how people get depressed when they have cancer - it doesn't make cancer a mental illness.

And the reason it is sometimes classified as such by insurance companies is so that treatment is covered by insurance.

Re:You don't know how hormones work, do you?

[_KiTA_]

No, he set out to deliberately mislead. Compare his text to the content of the links - they are either shitty Reddit posts on well known troll boards, or they don't support what he is claiming at all.

Since I doubt you're claiming that the Liinux Subreddit, the Libreroot Developer, or the GNU mailing list are troll boards, I'm presuming you're talking about KiA.

I'd like to refer everyone to that KiA post again, as it's better cited than anything else I've seen on the topic:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Kotak...

Does this look like trolling to you? Archived links to primary sources? Really?

Are any of the links I quoted earlier divergent from my claims? That's apparently your claim. Which ones?

I was even called out for literally quoting Rowe's claims of "transphobia" because apparently quoting that word is "scare quotes," despite the term "transphobia" having a shifting definition that amounts to "anything that a Transgendered individual doesn't like."

You know why it's best to "scare quote" that term? Because without any context it can mean actual transphobia -- firing someone for their Gender Dysphoria -- or it can mean something as benign as refusing to use some made up fake pronouns or suggesting there are only two genders. This muddying of the water is intentional -- motte and bailey again.

We don't know what "transphboia" happened there, because there's no evidence about anything that's happened in this event. As far as we can know, the "transphobia" was firing an underperforming person who just happens to have Gender Dysphoria -- as you can't be Transgender without Gender Dysphoria -- under the theory that Transmen and Transwomen deserve special exceptions to the rules. I.e., the transphobic act was firing this dev, for any reason.

Which brings us back to the original topic. Contrast the above with the pile of very specific and legally actionable claims that the original claimant, one Leah Rowe, makes.
https://libreboot.org/gnu/

There is exactly 0 evidence, 0 citations on this page. None. NONE.

Which one looks more like trolling, the one with 6 primary source citations, or the one that goes on for pages making vague claims of undefined wrongdoing, including directly accusing three people of violations of labor laws.

In fact, just noticed that in my re-reading. Here's that relevant part with the names removed.

The following people should either resign and/or be fired from the FSF, to be replaced by other people:
X - executive director - the one who fired the employee
Y - outreach and communication coordinator - the bully
Z - system administrator - leaked private emails to X, which lead to the employee being fired.

I would like to put forth a different explanation of what happened, which is just as valid as Leah's based on having the same amount of evidence for it.

The employee in question was sending emails they should not have been. We could speculate on what they are -- harassment, threats, some form of slurs -- but it doesn't matter. The system admin did an investigation of said user's email -- no doubt after an investigation request by Human Resources -- and sent the information to HR. HR then recommended termination, which the executive director followed through with.

Does that sound a bit more reasonable than "it's all a conspiracy because the biggest open source organization in the world just hates transgendered people?" The same one that just happened to be the target of several faux outrage attempts (Sarah Sharp's fainting couch moment, the Ada Institute's attempt to fake a rape hoax against Linus, etc) in the past few years? Really?

In the end I refuse to "listen and believe" -- translating from neo-leftist doublespeak, I refuse to ignore due process and t

Re:You don't know how hormones work, do you?

[_KiTA_]

You ask if the KiA link sounds like a troll. Let's check the headline:

"[SocJus] Leah Rowe, SJW sole git commit owner of Libreboot, rips the project away from GNU for the dismissal of a trans employee. Stallman and FSF deny discrimination, ask for proof, none is offered. Sound familiar?"

Yes, it sounds like a troll.

To you. To me, it's a simple statement of opinionated fact.

Leah Rowe (name, fact)

SJW (descriptive opinion of a form of authoritarian histrionic slacktivist troll, based on her actions and demeanor this is accurate, if an opinion)

sole git commit owner of Libreboot (fact, according to one of the developers of libreboot)

rips the project away from GNU (fact, as she apparently does not represent the entire Libreboot commuinty)

for the dismissal of a trans employee. (fact, a trans employee was dismissed, and this is why she removed the project from GNU)

Stallman and FSF deny discrimination (fact, as linked before)

ask for proof (have not seen RMS or FSF ask for proof myself, but the line could also be read as "[Someone] Ask[ed] for Proof". I have seen others ask for proof)

none is offered (fact.)

Is a statement of fact you disagree with "trolling" now?

Re:You don't know how hormones work, do you?

[_KiTA_]

This is one of the most annoying thing about today's SJW babies -- and one of the biggest reasons why society is finally fed up and not taking any more of it -- everything to them is about "hate." Anything they don't understand must be because of hate. People expressing opposing ideas or viewpoints are hateful. Must be so sad to live with such a disturbed worldview.

Actually, you bring up an interesting topic. Everything to them is about "hate."

That's because the same kind of thinking that religious belief is based around also allows for this Post-Modernist claptrap.

You see, if you turn the world into a nice black and white, then all you have to do is compare it to your predefined list of bad things and work backwards from there.

Is it a sin? Is it against the noble eightfold path? Is this heresy? If so, it's bad. Find a reason why later, it's bad, that's all you need to know.

They have swapped out this religious thinking for identity politics.

Is this sexist?

Is this racist?

Is this conservative?

Do normal straight men like it?

Is this capitalist?

If so, it's BAD. Find a reason later. That's why you see an ever-expanding bubble of "bad" surrounding them. "You're just a racist sexist Tea Party MRA GamerGate transphobic Alt Right islamophobic CIS WHITE MALE BernieBro benefiting from the capitalist heteronormative PATRIARCHY!"

The word salad doesn't matter. They really mean "bad."

The leader of the Honey Badgers has a great video up on it here. She's incredibly articulate and covers this in excellent detail.

Re:You don't know how hormones work, do you?

[Cederic]

and sorry, those are the only two genders

If that's not trolling then it's just blatant ignorance.

See also: XXY
See also: intersex (or hermaphrodite)

Non-binary sexual organs exist, non-binary genders exist. Accept it, get over it.

Re:You don't know how hormones work, do you?

[AmiMoJo]

Actually it's

"[Trigger Word] Leah Rowe, (name calling) (doesn't understand git) owner of Libreboot, (weasel words) from GNU (lie 1). Stallman and FSF deny discrimination, (lie 2). (stereotyping rage trigger)?"

Lie 1: It wasn't "for the dismissal", it was because of bullying. Seriously, how dumb are you that you missed that, or was it deliberate?

Lie 2: RMS and the FSF have said the absolute minimum about this, others asked for some evidence but obviously not wanting to dox the person involved it was not given. The request is that the FSF properly investigate and take action themselves.

It's no wonder people like you keep falling for all this fake news, when you can't even spot multiple lies and blatant attempts to manipulate you into taking the desired view of events in just three short sentences.

Re:You don't know how hormones work, do you?

[_KiTA_]

Leah's own post says it was because of the dismissal, not the bulling.

Bullying is mentioned 4 times in the article. Fired is mentioned 16. Continuing:

Leah Rowe, libreboot's main developer and founder, is a transgender woman herself, and several transgender people have contributed to the libreboot project. What the FSF has done is truly disgusting, so Libreboot voluntarily left the GNU project in protest. GNU is funded in large part by the Free Software Foundation. We will not name the person who was fired, for their privacy and safety.

She says right there she left in protest for "what the FSF has done." I.e., fired a transwoman under what she claims (without evidence) was retaliatory. In addition, as mentioned above she does not speak for Libreboot, she merely has control of the website and is acting as a gatekeeper. This is a standard tactic for these authoritarian marxists -- see also the disaster that was Mighty Number 9's Dana for another good example.

In addition, in what universe is "sound familiar" a stereotyping race trigger? You unhinged loon, do you literally see racism everywhere you look!?

It's a reference to how this kind of social justice faux outrage always goes. Wild accusation, no evidence, demands for evidence are ignored or interpreted as harassment / trolling / "sea lioning," demands for some form of reparations, usually in the form of control.

So... the title is accurate and you're full of snot.

Also, you need to get caught up on your lingo. The term "Fake News" is already on it's way out because it turns out that Journalists live in some very thinly pained glass houses indeed.

Re:You don't know how hormones work, do you?

[AmiMoJo]

If you think that understanding what someone wrote is a question of word frequency, I can't help you.

Similarly, if your eyes read "rage" and your brain substituted "race", I'd say you are the one who has fallen off his hinges.

Re:You don't know how hormones work, do you?

[Coren22]

http://dsm.psychiatryonline.or...

Because totally linking to the DSM V definition of Gender Dysphoria doesn't support the argument that GD is a mental illness, which it has to be to be in the DSM. Calling a banana a banana isn't hate, it is being descriptive. If you can't handle the truth that GD is a mental illness, please continue to deny the truth. The oucome of that denial though is that insurance doesn't cover it if it isn't an illness, so you will be hurting far more transgenders than any "hater".
 

Re:You don't know how hormones work, do you?

[Coren22]

When did you get your psychiatric degree? What school? You are arguing with the psychiatric profession, not with a Slashdot poster.

Re:You don't know how hormones work, do you?

[Coren22]

Mental illnesses are defined by the psychiatric profession. If you don't like something they define, go out and get a degree and prove them wrong. If you want people to get treatment, stop trying to claim it isn't an illness, when it is a clearly defined illness in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of mental disorders.

I was born with mild autism (originally called asperger's disorder), just because what I have is in the DSM, doesn't make it hate for people to call autism a mental illness. It is a mental illness, and the only hate that is being spewed is yours denying the facts of a situation. You are the one claiming to know better than professionals in the field of psychiatry.

Re:You don't know how hormones work, do you?

[Kkloe]

I am not claiming that I know "better than professionals in the field of psychiatry", I am claiming that the usage of a negative word on repeat to denigrate a person is used by him to try and make the we against them camps. That is how hate speech works.
And maybe you consider mental illness to be a very negative word then you never had anyone consider you as a mental ill person.

https://www.psychologytoday.co...
As the article points out, yes we should make the words "mental illness" not be such a bad word, but it is right now, and taking it down on how it is perceived will take time and dont go away because YOU dont consider it such a negative word.
Any person with any knowledge on how language is used to "dominate" others can see he is used the words "mental illness" to denigrate that person.

Re:You don't know how hormones work, do you?

[_KiTA_]

and sorry, those are the only two genders

If that's not trolling then it's just blatant ignorance.

See also: XXY
See also: intersex (or hermaphrodite)

Non-binary sexual organs exist, non-binary genders exist. Accept it, get over it.

Those are not genders. They are birth defects and genetic abnormalities.

There is no such thing as "non-binary" gender. You are either male, or female. There is some debate about what it means to be male or female, which is healthy and important. But there is also a large number of transsexuals out there, including some who have munchausen syndrome (i.e., the aforementioned "TransTrenders") who are demanding we legitimize their demands for attention. No.

Male. Female.

That's it.

Sorry, but it's true. And no amount of worthless Post-Modernist Gender Studies degrees will ever change that.

Re:You don't know how hormones work, do you?

[_KiTA_]

The dysphoria itself is not a mental illness.

As mentioned before, wrong.

The fact that it has gone from "Gender nonconforming behavior" to outright dysphoria IS the mental illness. That's why it's dysphoria and no longer "nonconforming behavior."

No one's calling a tomboy a TransMan. (Well, some idiots on Tumblr might, but they're idiots.)

But when that tomboy is put in a state of deep depression because puberty is hitting and she's starting to blossom? That's (gender) dysphoria. And that's when treatment comes into play, which is often toughening up, therapy, or rarely, transitioning.

Re:You don't know how hormones work, do you?

[Cederic]

Apologies that reality doesn't fit into your limited binary exclusion zone. But it's ok, if being an ignorant cunt was fatal then humanity would have become extinct years ago, so you're probably not going to die from it.

Re:You don't know how hormones work, do you?

[_KiTA_]

And I too find it ok that there are people out there who don't understand basic biology, and believe that people's feelings on things trump facts and data. Because hey, if we didn't have special needs posters on the internet, Everyday Feminism and Infowars would have went out of business long ago.

Re:Baby and bathwater.

[Gavagai80]

It's still GPLed. The vast majority of GPLed projects are not GNU projects. According to Stallman this project had only been a GNU project for a very brief time, and the development team for it preceded it being GNU and continues with it post-GNU. So nothing lost except access to lawyers.

Much ado about nothing

[Afty0r]

Reading several of the statements about the issue on libreboot.org linked from other highly-voted comments on this thread, they all appear to be written by Leah Rowe, and read like those of a petulant child. There's a lack of maturity both in the tone of the posts and in the content. Some are borderline libellous and have no evidence to back it up - besides hearsay from other people. But not a link to their own post, or even a direct quote, just a load of spiel about what they said. It's sad and pathetic, I suspect the FSF and GNU will be glad to see the back of anyone with that kind of attitude / lack of professionalism.

Re:Much ado about nothing

[serviscope_minor]

Reading several of the statements about the issue on libreboot.org linked from other highly-voted comments on this thread, they all appear to be written by Leah Rowe,

That's utter crap, unless you think that Leah Rowe has somehow infiltrated the accounts of numerous slashdot members with ID numbers indicating years of membership.

Re:Much ado about nothing

[rochrist]

Why? She doesn' t try to hide being trans. Did you think you were being clever?

FSF is not transphobic

[jgfenix]

When that same Leah Rowe decided to make public her sexual identity the far had no problems with retroactively change her name in past posts in the mailing lists. Is they were truly hostile they wouldn't bother.

Re:FSF is not transphobic

[Orgasmatron]

Which makes sense, because Stallman's personal politics are somewhere out in Chomskyville, that rarified region of the political spectrum between Karl Marx and transdimension beings from the Elemental Plane of Communism.

Seriously, go read the politics page on his personal website.

Re:Baby and bathwater.

[youngone]

So, this dude is having a hissy-fit because some other dude wanted to pretend to be a girl, and somebody at FSF didn't play along?

No, that's not what happened, you should read some of the links provided.

A trans-gender employee of the FSF has been fired, no-one from the FSF is saying why, which is probably the sensible thing to do.

The person who has control of the Libreboot project has objected and seems to thing the fired former staff member was fired because of her gender.

Richard Stallman pointed out that the trans person was trans when they were hired, making the objector look bad.

Re:TRANSGENDER discrimination? By FSF?

[rtb61]

From this thread, https://warosu.org/g/thread/56..., it seems emotions and personalities were more at play than anything else. Gees, geeks and nerds, can not you keep you gaming to, well, actual computer games and cut back on the social and emotional gaming. Yes, a lot of you carry over emotional and social scars from having to deal with jock strap douche bags and narcissist cheer leaders who were extremely jealous and vindictive against people who can actually think, don't repeat their behaviour against your own, chill the fuck out. You win together not against each other or alone.

When it comes to gender choices or mutual masturbation activities, keep it to yourself, people are getting really, really sick of hearing about it and fuck the US Democrats for pumping up that issue as a political distraction so people will stupidly ignore economic policy. Keep pushing this nonsense and you will get some real angry majority kick back.

On software freedom's gift to users & philosop

[jbn-o]

Thanks for referring to the discussions that occurred when this first became public. The mailing list discussions and changes in the FSF's website make it clear that Leah Rowe is arguing on behalf of someone else—a former FSF employee whose identity was revealed when their bio was removed from the FSF Staff and Board webpage. The Libreboot project has not been "stolen" from the community as anyone is free to copy the project (before or after leaving the GNU Project) and develop the code further. That is why this is not a loss for software freedom, Libreboot users, or anyone who wishes to continue development (even continuing under the GNU Project again). This freedom is part of what makes free software so great and worth celebrating for its own sake. Only proprietary software really ends up becoming truly inactive because nobody but the proprietor is allowed to develop that code further.

One note on the reddit.org discussion pointed to in one of the links: poster "jammer170" claims:

Not "more free", but "more open". Stripping out binary blobs is important in the open source movement.

But that's almost exactly backwards; that assessment is woefully mistaken about the difference between the older free software movement (which objects on ethical grounds to proprietary software) and open source (a development methodology and right-wing friend of proprietors which finds it more convenient to help developers by sharing software development work but doesn't seriously object to proprietary software). This distinction is relevant to understand why Libreboot exists: Libreboot is a fully-free fork of Coreboot just as GNU Linux-libre is a fully-free fork of the Linux kernel. Both Coreboot and the Linux kernel contain non-free software in them. Both Libreboot and GNU Linux-libre projects inherit code from upstream and remove the non-free blobs (plus possibly make some other modifications beyond the scope of this point) and then distribute completely free software variants of their upstream projects. Thus GNU Linux-libre and Libreboot might not be able to run on all of the hardware their upstream projects run on but what systems can run either Libreboot and/or GNU Linux-libre are doing the jobs those programs do with free software.

This reddit.org discussion is not well sourced on this point, jammer170 makes the aforementioned points with no pointers to help readers understand this distinction nor why this distinction matters. The FSF has published essays (old, new) to explain why free software matters, why the open source movement eschews software freedom, and Richard Stallman devotes a section of his talks to clearly explaining the difference between the philosophies of the free software movement and open source including how those different philosophies play out in practical terms on the ground. Usually that difference comes down to free software activists taking steps to ensure software freedom while open source enthusiasts go along with whatever a proprietor requests.

RMS speaks for the GNU Project, not Libreboot

[jbn-o]

[...] Stallman is talking as if Leah can't go back to her original project

Where are you getting this part? I see no indication that Stallman said Leah Rowe is somehow forbidden from developing Libreboot further. Stallman is clearly speaking on behalf of the GNU Project, not Libreboot, and he can say who gets to join GNU just as any other free software project leader gets to decide who joins their project.

Small correction: distribution, not fork.

[jbn-o]

One small correction to what I wrote above: Libreboot is not a fork of Coreboot, Libreboot is a distribution of Coreboot without proprietary binary blobs. The parallel to GNU Linux-libre is still apt as both Libreboot and GNU Linux-libre distribute code without proprietary software included.

Re: it's the guy who ignored the real reason...

[epyT-R]

HR is the last thing they need.. The existence of HR is a symptom of disease progression, not a cure.

Re: angry 'majority' kickback

[slashrio]

Already happened: Trump. (Or was it the Russians? :)

Re: mental illness

[slashrio]

It doesn't matter a bit whether he/she was/is mental ill.
The FSF has clearly stated that the 'parting' was for reasons that have nothing to do with mental illness.
So can you please take this discussion away and put it where it belongs, alt. illness.mental.gender-dysphoria or so?
It's off-topic. Thanks.

Let's not talk about Coreboot vs Libreboot...

[jbn-o]

You could ask about their views on Coreboot and Libreboot and you can look up the licensing yourself. Coreboot has non-free software in it which is stripped out in the Libreboot distribution. Let's not talk about "Coreboot vs. Libreboot" as if they're opposed. As far as I can tell, both work together harmoniously whether Libreboot is a part of the GNU Project or not.

Not an illness

[rubypossum]

Unlike blindness transgenderism is not a defect of function, per se. I was born with a correctable birth defect. It's very simple and easily treated, no need for all the drama. Transgenderism, queerness and all of LGBT are normal and natural behaviors that present in nature. They're found in wonderful people and animals of all kinds who live deeply full and beautiful lives. Being transgender is not a limitation in the sense that it's fully treatable.

Illness is a put-down

[rubypossum]

It's really intended as a put down rather than a precise medical term. I was born with a correctable birth defect. It's very simple and easily treated, no need for all the drama. Most birth defects or endocrine disorders are "illnesses", although the word is not commonly applied. I think that's the reason some people respond so powerfully to calling it an illness. I'm transgender and don't give a shit what you call it but calling mentally ill people mentally ill is true but still probably an asshole thing to do. Not that anyone cares anymore. We are in the age of Don't-Care.

Re:Illness is a put-down

[Coren22]

Is it a put down when I say you were out ill with the flu? You are putting words into someone else's mouth that they never said. Illness is exactly the opposite of a put down.

Re:EditorDavid fucked up

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure seems invested in it. Got the up mods too. I stopped reading after the first "SJW."
That's how people tell you they are so hyper-biased that you shouldn't listen to them.

Re:TRANSGENDER discrimination? By FSF?

[silentcoder]

That would be the same Muslims who legalized gay marriage in the Ottoman empire ?

Nice stereotype there douchbag.

Shapespeare

[lucm]

I wonder what words "Shapespeare" would have used for transgender characters. Or any of the other people you mention.

For instance I'm sure Dickens insights in the matter would have been fascinating, as was his view of Jews or African Americans (he's the one who mentioned "the melancholy absurdity of giving these people votes" after all).

Re:Shapespeare

[Demena]

You are aware that any play by Shakespeare that has a woman in the cast would not truly be Shakespeare? Shakespeare's plays were always played by an all male cast. He may not have had an issue.

Besides there have been trans people everywhere throughout history. It is only in a few barbaric cultures where it has ever been a major issue

Re:Shapespeare

[lucm]

Besides there have been trans people everywhere throughout history. It is only in a few barbaric cultures where it has ever been a major issue

You mean like Alabama, Arizona, Arkansas, Colorado, Delaware, District Of Columbia, Georgia, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Michigan, Montana, Nebraska, New Jersey, New Mexico, North Carolina, North Dakota, Oklahoma, Tennessee, Vermont, Virginia, West Virginia, Wisconsin, Wyoming?

Yes those are states with compulsory sterilization for transgender people who want to update their birth certificate. Fortunately, only Alabama, Louisiana, North Carolina and Oklahoma also require it to update a driver license.

Re:Shapespeare

[Demena]

No, not really. I would call those states sub-cultures not cultures. I would have to ask an anthropologist to be sure that this is correct though. Me. I am not sure the state, any state, even has the right to ask your sex let alone proclivities. They need numbers for planning but do not need to know that person X is female to not, gay or not, trans or not.

Re:Shapespeare

[lucm]

What they need and what they ask for are two different things.

According to the Supreme court, the states are not even allowed to require a driver license to operate a motor vehicle:

The Right of the Citizen to travel upon the public highways and to transport his property thereon, by horse drawn carriage, wagon, or automobile, is not a mere privilege which may be permitted or prohibited at will, but the common Right which he has under his Right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse...

So I'm not holding my breath to see the States opening a public debate about the need to determine the gender of citizens.

Re:Shapespeare

[Demena]

When I used the term stat I was using it in the sense of nation state.

Re:Shapespeare

[Zaelath]

You missed the rest of the quote, where they make it clear you can be required to have a licence, you just can't deny them to black people.

The exercise of such a common right the city may, under its police power, regulate in the interest of the public safety and welfare; but it may not arbitrarily or unreasonably prohibit or restrict it, nor may it permit one to exercise it and refuse to permit another of like qualifications, under like conditions and circumstances, to exercise it.

The regulation of the exercise of the right to drive a private automobile on the streets of the city may be accomplished in part by the city by granting, refusing, and revoking, under rules of general application, permits to drive an automobile on its streets; but such permits may not be arbitrarily refused or revoked, or permitted to be held by some and refused to other of like qualifications, under like circumstances and conditions.

Re: it's the guy who ignored the real reason...

[rochrist]

Fuck off, coward.

Re:sage

[rochrist]

Fuck off, you spineless coward.

Re:EMACS Virgins? I am an EMACS Virgin. So what?

[rochrist]

You're apparently not reading the right links. : https://libreboot.org/gnu/ [libreboot.org]

Re:Marry girl children, kick sjw cunts 2 the curb!

[rochrist]

Same to you, mouth breather.

Re:TRANSGENDER discrimination? By FSF?

[nedlohs]

Do you really not know what the word "fringe" means? Dictionaries are very accessible these days.

Re:TRANSGENDER discrimination? By FSF?

[Cederic]

neither am I supportive of trannies demanding that they be allowed to use whichever bathrooms they like

I am. But I usually identify mostly as male and I'm quite comfortable using the women's bathroom if it's the only one with paper, the men's isn't working or there's just a queue.

When you're in a stall with the door closed it's all pretty fucking irrelevant, so just get over it. I'm there to empty my bladder and/or bowels, it's what bathrooms are for, what's the problem here?

Re: "Open Source is a meritocracy"

[_KiTA_]

Yes, proudly so. If you are not able to work under your own merits, get the fuck out. It's one of the reasons the Post-Modernists were actively trying to sabotogue open source projects, with authoritarian and easily abused "codes of conduct," attempts at nailing Linus Torvalds with a rape hoax, repeated attempts at tone policing the Kernel Mailing list, and now an unhinged transwoman raving about how the big bad FSF hates transgendered people.

(The Code of Merit should be required viewing for anyone demanding a CoC be added to their project.)

Re:TRANSGENDER discrimination? By FSF?

[unixisc]

That would be the same Muslims who legalized gay marriage in the Ottoman empire ?

Citation required

Re:TRANSGENDER discrimination? By FSF?

[unixisc]

I don't have a problem. But in that case, why have separate men and women's bathrooms? The usual reason is that when multiple men or women go into a bathroom, they don't get to see each other nude. It's the same reason men are not allowed in women's locker rooms in gyms, and vice versa. Although honestly, I can't stand to see nude men or women when I'm walking around anywhere, including locker rooms

Re:TRANSGENDER discrimination? By FSF?

[Cederic]

Well, it's societal convention. Mostly as a man it's kind of nice to have an option to avoid the horrific filth regularly found in the ladies' anyway.

Re:TRANSGENDER discrimination? By FSF?

[silentcoder]

Yes, I know what "fringe" means - and an empire that spanned the entire Arab world is just about the exact OPPOSITE of that.

Re:TRANSGENDER discrimination? By FSF?

[silentcoder]

Read up on the Tanzimat for a start - a series of civil rights reforms in the Ottoman empire which, among others, legalized homosexuality.

But that just put an official stamp on something which had been de facto legal all along. Sultans and other elites had been including young men in their harems for centuries - and if the sultans did it, it was by default legal (as per the way the Ottoman society was structured),
It wasn't complete equality, there were some weird restrictions (It was only legal if the other man was quite young and the only the older man could be the penetrator).

Re:TRANSGENDER discrimination? By FSF?

[nedlohs]

And thus the poster wasn't referring to those muslims. But rather a different smaller group of muslims.

Re:TRANSGENDER discrimination? By FSF?

[silentcoder]

The poster was clearly making a generalisation and suggesting that what he said applied to Muslim's as a whole - and that is flagrantly untrue. Hell oppression of homosexuality isn't even part of Islam - it was imported into that religion by Christianity.

There are 5 Muslim countries in the world today where homosexuality is legal and gays enjoy equal rights. They are, and this is no coincidence, also the only 5 Muslim countries that were never colonised by Europe. Oppression of homosexuality was invented by Westerners and exported (with great success) and now, as this atrocity is losing favour in the west, people who still practise it try to excuse their practise there-off by pointing fingers at the versions happening in other cultures - conveniently forgetting that those cultures are LESS bad than their own was quite recently - and indeed just bad copies of what their own used to be oh such a short time ago, because they adopted it in an effort to compete with their colonial oppressors.
The colonists kept justifying their colonization on the grounds that they were "civilized" and the people they were colonizing were "barbarians" ...so those people tried to end their subjugation by adopting the practises of their "civilized" masters - so as to appear "civlized" as well.

How ironic that the very "civlization" they adopted, are now held up as proof of their inferiority by the same colonial mindsets that STILL see them as "barbarians" and has never realized the simple truth - all cultures are EXACTLY equally advanced - because they all share the same origins, so they all are exactly the same age.