Slashdot Mirror
Vivaldi CEO: Stop Your Anti-Competitive Practices With Edge, Microsoft! (betanews.com)
Reader Mark Wilson writes: Microsoft is no stranger to pissing people off, particularly when it comes to Windows 10. There have been endless cries about forced updates, complaints about ads, moaning about privacy, and now the CEO of Vivaldi has lashed out at the company for its anti-competitive practices with Microsoft Edge. Jon von Tetzchner says that Microsoft has forgotten about the "actual real-life people that use technology in their daily lives." He takes particular umbrage at Windows 10's continued insistence of resetting the default browser to Edge. Indicating that his patience has now run out, von Tetzchner points to a 72-year-old friend who was confused by the change and unable to reverse things. He says that Microsoft is failing to respect the decisions made by users, and this is something that needs to stop.
In the brave new world of Big Data, users are not customers. Users are raw products to be quantified, classified and sold to advertisers and marketers. What users want is not important - it's the ones that actually pay Microsoft that matter.
How come Slashdot never gets Slashdotted?
We won't ever stop! Shut up plebs!
I've had my Win 10 machine for 10 months, I set the default browser to Firefox when I got it and it has NEVER tried to reset to Edge. I am calling shenanigans on this Vivaldi bozo and his friend...
He says that Microsoft is failing to respect the decisions made by users, and this is something that needs to stop.
At least Apple doesn't do this. Apple always goes with the decisions made by the users....never mind it does this because it makes the choices *for* the users and only offers one plan, but hey...at least the users and company are on the same page?
"Vivaldi Technologies is a Software Development company, most known for its creation of the Vivaldi browser." https://vivaldi.com/
Minor detail the article and summary leave out.
says that Microsoft is failing to respect the decisions made by users, and this is something that needs to stop
So same shit since the 80s.
True, but that one choice is what most of their users want or at least is generally one of the better choices one could make. Microsoft is shoving choices down people's throat that very few would want.
I use windows 10 on a couple of computers all set with chrome as the default and have never had an issue with edge somehow being my default. The only time I ever see edge is because I do use one web site that only works with it and if click on some of the default tiles it uses edge but then it covers up and remove much of the UI for the purpose of display just that tile info that you would not recognize it as a regular browser.
Until they're slapped with SIGNIFICANT, ongoing, escalating fines, or the company is seriously threatened with a breakup, not a single fuck will be given.
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
If you could uninstall Edge, then it would be a non-issue, since you could then make sure that a given user would never encounter that problem. Since you can't get rid of Edge, however, the problem will inevitably be encountered. Therefore it is an issue.
On one hand I'm somewhat of a geek, and determining what is happening and fixing it is burnt into me. However, 72 is only 10 years away, and I don't know what will happen to me in terms of strokes, dementia, etc in that time.
Vivaldi to Microsoft: Stop Your Anti-Competitive Practices!
Microsoft to Vivaldi: No.
Seriously, Microsoft barely even listens to governments anymore, you really think they care about about browser that has less market-share than even Firefox?
You can have any color. So long as it's black.
So... Microsoft automatically has the high ground for who gets to use seniors as their guinea pig? Interesting to see Slashdot take their side for a change.
Vivaldi? Why in the world would anyone inflict such a non-player in the browser market on a 72 year old? Is von Tetzchner trying to keep them captive so he'll be remembered in their will?
Oh, wait - this is von Tetzchner, the CEO of Vivaldi - making the complaint. I'm sure that the 72-year-old didn't test all the browsers and then settle on Vivaldi; Tetzchner used his influence as a friend to foist it on them. Whine away, Tetzchner, or better yet, install a few different browsers and let them choose instead of using seniors as guinea pigs.
No where does it say that the default browser was Vivaldi and thus your entire comment is but the braying of an ass.
Why is the parent comment at -1? It makes a good point.
The latest browser usage stats show that Edge is only about 1.5% of the browser market.
Even Firefox, which is quickly becoming an irrelevant browser, has several times the market share that Edge has.
Then there's desktop Safari 10, which runs only on an OS that has perhaps around 10% of the desktop/laptop market, has almost the same market share as Edge, despite Edge running on OSes that have well over 20% of the desktop/laptop market.
Heck, even desktop Chrome 49 (yes, a single old version of desktop Chrome!) has about the same number of users as Edge.
And earlier this month Slashdot ran a submission entitled Windows 10 Gains 14% Desktop Market Share in 2016, Edge Continues to Struggle, again pointing out that Edge isn't seeing much use.
Edge doesn't matter.
The Vivaldi web browser (which the shitty, shitty summary doesn't even mention!) has a lot of potential. They really should focus on improving their browser. There are a lot of former Firefox users who have moved to Chrome or other browsers, but who don't really want to be using Chrome. If Vivaldi focuses on these users, and giving them the kind of browser that they want, then Vivaldi has a good chance of becoming popular. Wasting focus on Edge won't help with this at all.
Whoever mismodded the parent comment to -1 should never be allowed to moderate again.
Honestly, is there anyone that does actually use the Edge browser? I don't, since I avoid 10 like the plague that it is. My CO, who did a review of it, just apsolutly hated it. It worked fine out of the proverbial box, but had next to no plug-in support. Like any ab blocks are enhance cookie management for privacy.
People can charge for the service of fixing (re-setting FF/Cr, etc.) the computer again after it broke down. Then they can charge for the same service after the next update. The old person doesn't/isn't able to care, they just want "their" internet program back.
I don't get it reset...but now every time I start up a browser that isn't Edge, it pop ups a little warning saying how Edge is a better and safer browser.
It feels like it's acting like the guy who never gets picked, but keeps trying, hoping that one day he'll be the one who gets out of the dugout, dropping hints to the coach that _he_ could do better than the regulars. "Boy, you wouldn't even be on the team, but you're the owners son, so I can't fire you."
It reset the default browser after the big October update; re-enabled Cortana and put it back on the task bar if you'd disabled it IIRC. Several updates (including the big October one) have also put Edge and the Windows Store back in your task bar if you had unpinned them.
Source: I maintain a few dozen computers spread among various clients (small businesses) as a side job. My SOP was to disable Cortana and remove it, Edge, and the Windows Store from the task bar. It was a major PITA having to do this over and over on so many computers. I seriously doubt it was user error - that would've required a few dozen users to simultaneously decide "I think I'll re-enable Cortana and pin it, Edge, and the Windows store back to my task bar" to jive with my experience Microsoft may have done it again recently - I got fed up with it and just disabled the update service on my personal Win 10 machine so I wouldn't know. My next planned update is beginning of Feb. Haven't yet made the rounds this month to check my clients' computers.
So effin' true.
At a recent meeting of Microsoft top managers, it was noted that, although Google is making progress in being evil, Google is still not as evil as Microsoft.
Microsoft top managers also discussed a recent magazine article that said that the lack of social ability of Microsoft top managers limits Microsoft's ability to deliver evil. The article said that it is easier to deliver evil if the delivery is not so obvious.
Damn that'd be rough, having Alzheimers and remembering how great Firefox was in the day. "Who the devil changed my default browser to Chrome! Dagnabbit, now I've got waste my time changing this infernal contraption back to Firefox!" Then you remember how leaky Firefox was. "Who the devil changed my default browser to Firefox!..."
Yeah no one cares. Screeching about the environment has never and never will actually do any good. Not in any real way, like bringing new nuclear power that will actually meet Americans growing energy needs. Instead of just dumping more and more federal money into solar and wind subsidies that makes it look like an actual option.
Tetzchner used his influence as a friend to foist it on them
Or Tetzchner's friend didn't like it. Then one day when Tetzchner saw him using Edge and cried foul, the friend reached for the easiest scapegoat: "Uh... Microsoft must have changed my browser!"
So... Microsoft automatically has the high ground for who gets to use seniors as their guinea pig? Interesting to see Slashdot take their side for a change.
What part of "install a few different browsers and let them choose instead of using seniors as guinea pigs" didn't you understand, troll?
"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
I agree. And I've been using Windows 10 for approximately 12 months on my primary machine
One thing systemd doesn't do (yet, crossing fingers) is phone home. And try removing oh svchost.exe from Windows and see how that works.
He takes particular umbrage at Windows 10's continued insistence of resetting the default browser to Edge. Indicating that his patience has now run out, von Tetzchner points to a 72-year-old friend who was confused by the change and unable to reverse things.
People running Firefox or Chrome haven't run into this problem ...
"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
Every major windows 10 build update resets your program defaults to all of the Microsoft applications (including edge) and pins several Microsoft applications to your taskbar if you've unpinned them. Namely edge, store, and cortana.
So far in the history of windows 10, this has happened four times.
Not only that, but the fact that seemingly every time there's some kind of Windows update, Windows changes it's default PDF handling application to Edge as well. Like, really? Fix that shit!
Which is 4 times too many
I never heard of this "Vivaldi" browser. Is this topic a Slashvertisement?
And if they're going to name browsers after composers, I am holding out for the Stravinsky browser.
I can't drag and drop bookmarks on the Edge bookmark toolbar, a vital part of how I use a browser, so until that happens, Edge is completely unusable for me.
Wow, people still posts these replies? Because, if there is ONE thing windows is known for over the years, it is a complete guarantee of consistency. That what happens on one machine happens on millions of others.
As a counterpoint, my work machine would reset html and pdf file associations back to edge on a weekly basis. Had to edit the registry to get rid of the behaviour.
True. Linux is catching up to windows in the "removal of choice" dept.
Hey, now. Some of us LIKE a wide brushed aluminum frame when watching quicktime movies on our Windows pcs.
Never had it revert my default (firefox nightly) and I run the latest windows alpha version updated almost every week.
Also, windows is no longer having the monopoly of desktop operating systems. If google can do it in gmail or google itself (tell people to use chrome) why shouldn't microsoft?
"Yet these same people are perfectly fine with systemd"
/were not up in arms over systemd is down right laughable. Either that or your a YUUUGE Trump fan and are jumping on the alternative facts bandwagon.
You've never been to this site before have you? I mean the claim that people are not
regardless, thanks for playing.
Sorry, teleporters just kill you and then make a copy. A perfect, soul-less copy.
A friend of mine has a visual impairment. He has often complained that Windows 10 updates have reset his accessibility options, like the mouse button binding he uses for the magnifier. Microsoft won't care about browser preferences being reset, but maybe a fine for disobeying the Americans with Disabilities Act will get them to get their act together.
It's named Vivaldi because it's made by a company led by some of the same people who were behind Opera, and they want to capitalize on the name without ending up in court. In the association game, if you say "Vivaldi", the word you get back is likely "Opera".
In other words, they market it as a browser that they don't believe can stand on its own behind its own proud name, but needs help by alluding to a better known product.
Unfortunately, I think the fat lady sings for both Opera and Vivaldi.
I think this submission could be considered a "Slashvertisement", but not for Vivaldi. The submission's submitter is apparently some "Mark Wilson" character, which is the same name shown as the linked-to article's author.
If this submission were a "Slashvertisement" for Vivaldi, then it would have actually linked to Vivaldi's web site, or at the very least it would have explained what Vivaldi is. It does neither.
This submission appears to be a "Slashvertisement" for this "Mark Wilson" character's article, or perhaps for this "BetaNews" site.
Slashdot has covered Vivaldi multiple times before, going back about two years:
Opera's Ex-CEO Launches Vivaldi 1.0 For Power Users
Opera Founder Opens Up About New Vivaldi Browser
Vivaldi Hits Its First Beta
Hands-On With the Vivaldi Browser
Opera Founder Is Back, WIth a Feature-Heavy, Chromium-Based Browser
I can tell you that this is done at the product group level. They are goaled with user adoption metrics so you will find many of these things types of anti-competitive 'features' in their releases and updates. Ultimately it is the fault of management for not reigning in this practice.
Only if you defer all updates. Every major Windows 10 update resets a lot of settings to Microsoft default.
"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
You are right. Most Linux supporters don't complain about systemd, in the same way. Except for the small few that have moved to Devaun Linux, Slackware Linux, Void Linux, Alpine Linux, Guix Linux, etc. They might still complain because they moved to Distros that don't have forced systemd and the bigger box distros developing everything as if systemd is the only init system that matters. This means that systemd free or optional systems need to do extra development on anything glued to systemd.
Then there are the one like me that moved to BSD systems. I treated Linux the same way I did Windows when it got stupid. With that said, at least people can officially support Linux without systemd.
But you still have a valid point. There are plenty of Linux users that don't realize how powerless they are, even when GNU, Libre and OpenSource are under their hoods. I'd like to see a show of hands for all the folks that have examined even RMS' GNU version of Firefox to see how well that code respects them as a user. Or is the trust all based on assumption? I won't ever use Windows again, If I have a choice. But at least you know outrightly that you shouldn't trust their products. Which is good for a hand full of people that follow labels around like facts.
Those that trust Linux because it is GNU/Opensource(and sometimes Libre) are almost as bad as those that trust Microsoft because it is a paid for product.
but maybe a fine for disobeying the Americans with Disabilities Act will get them to get their act together.
I'm sure Trump can be persuaded to revoke that law.
As much as I dislike systemd, it's hardly the same thing at all. IE and Edge are applications that should be no more or less embedded than any other application. Systemd is a system-level component/utility. The equivalent would be demanding that Microsoft take out, say, the event logging system.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
It says something about far Microsoft has fallen that not even leveraging their power over the operating system can get them any penetration with their built-in browser. I'd say they have not only lost the browser war, they're no longer in the same browser universe. Part of it has to do with the fact that Edge is truly a horrible piece of software, and part of it is that Google has basically colonized Windows with Chrome.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
... why does Microsoft feel it has to resort to such underhanded tactics to get people to use it?
Removing IE from Windows 8 and 8.1 was a breeze. You had to go to windows components and uncheck it. I have done in several occasion. It was possible since Windows XP embedded / Windows Fundamentals for legacy PCs
Or moved to Oracle Linux 6. That also doesn't have the Cry Baby Poettering carp, has Gnome 2, and has security updates for free for quite a while.
These don't happen for me. All my windows 10 machines have no Ethernet cables plugged and the wireless cards are removed.
Windows... is... dead...
You've never been to this site before have you? I mean the claim that people are not /were not up in arms over systemd is down right laughable. Either that or your a YUUUGE Hillary fan and are jumping on the alternative facts bandwagon.
FTFY
Yes, yes, MS playing musical chairs with browsers is a perennial favorite of those who live in the Windows world. But there is something waaaaaaaaay more important that needs to be fixed before fixing that: Indexing with Network Drives.
For the curious (or for those who are wondering what the current status of this bug might be): https://social.technet.microso...
"Problem creating/renaming a folder on a network share with Win10 Anniversary Update (Error 0x8007003B)"
There's a big enough contingent unhappy with systemd to fork Debian. Windows users, however, can't fork Windows. With Linux, if you don't like it, you can change it. With Windows, it's a Hobsons choice of whichever Windows variant you like from a choice of 1.
John_Chalisque
Windows 7 was the last decent OS they released.
We use Windows 10 at work, due to the fact we have to use Visual Studio and Windows 10 is a sorry excuse for an OS, not only does Edge reset itself constantly, Skype locks up, Visual Studio locks up and crashes constantly, the boot time is HORRIBLE, everything is sluggish, the keyboard ghosts and that's just for starters. This morning my computer decided it would reset itself and all of it settings, for no F'ing reason.
My computer doesn't have any viruses and it doesn't have any kind of hardware problem. I've seen this exact behavior now on three completely separate computers that even have different hardware, so it's not a hardware platform problem either, it's typical Microsoft failing to place nice.
If Microsoft didn't corner the market for certain development channels, everyone would switch to either GNU / Linux or MAC, two operating systems that vastly outrank Windows in almost every possible avenue. In fact I feel completely comfortable in saying that GNU/Linux makes Windows seem like a mentally slow inbred cousin of an operating system in comparison. I would pick Gentoo or Ubuntu over Windows 10 in every possible comparison, even for development, and force Visual Studio to run under Wine, which would still be more stable and outperform it running on Windows 10..
I've already been on the phone with Microsoft several times to try and solve these problem we're having and it's pointless, they can't provide any help, they don't understand the problem and they don't have any kind of actual answer that is suitable. Windows 10 is flat out horse shit, the streaming kind.
Cue Apple's former CEO telling people that they're doing something incorrectly if it's not working the way they expect.
It's strange how angry Linux supporters get about how it isn't really possible to remove IE or Edge from Windows without breaking things. They will act all outraged and indignant. Yet these same people are perfectly fine with systemd being pretty much unremovable in most recent Linux distros.
Herp derp.
should abandon making apps for ms-windows and focus on making apps for Linux, make them portable so all anyone has to do is unzip them in the users home dir ~/[my_app_name] and run the executable, and when ms-windows starts losing too much userbase because of their anti-competitive methods of conducting themselves they might change their tune,
Politics is Treachery, Religion is Brainwashing
Such bullshit. Citation please?
It will default ESPECIALLY after major updates like the anniversary release. It has reset and disabled chrome after certain updates that seem to "refresh" the system and makes users lose a whole bunch of settings. It has happened on at least 10 PC's at work. I work with very specific programs that were running just fine on all computers at work but after some overnight forced updates none of the programs ran. They weren't listed in the start menu or anything so I had to reinstall the programs.
I know what I am doing so I can fix the issue, but a whole lot of people do not know what in the fuck happened after their programs are gone. Sometimes they dont even know their PC randomly updated overnight and fucked them over while they were asleep. Seriously this shit needs to stop. Stop fucking with my computer so much MS. At least INFORM ME that you are about to royally fuck up all my settings and OFFER to skip it so I don't have to fix every ones computer the next day and loose time and money because nobody can get their work done.
Fuck you Microsoft.
November Update (2015) and the Anniversary Update both reset the default browser. Though I think Microsoft patched the Anniversary Update to stop doing this part way through the rollout. I forced updated to Anniversary Update, so my browser preference was reset.
Of course the real elephant in the room is that Windows was updated to ignore your browser preference. Cortana.
Microsoft, Apple, Google, Amazon what's the difference? All steal money from devs and control with walled gardens.
I am just happy the full monopoly of init.d is gone.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
I see you must never update. But just use the app on the screen. In the last three updates, I have had to reinstall the settings for bitdefender, thunderbird, opera and Firefox. Just because I notice these things. Plus the new BIOS lock did not like me running a mint on a stick, making me go back to the boot, which they changed? Come on now...
There needs to be *something* available to download your preferred browser when things stop working (or with a fresh install).
I think we need to move past this claim that a browser is some optional application like Quickbooks.
"He says that Microsoft is failing to respect the decisions made by users"
I simply cannot believe that a giant, greedy, faceless, amoral corporation like Microsoft would pay so little attention to what their users want.
Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
We can tell Microsoft to go fork themselves.
Just avoid win 10!
_ _ _ Go for the eyes Boo! GO FOR THE EYES!
That your comment got upvoted is silly. Good job slashdot moderators.
Unless it just automagically installs itself one day... which it did many times to many people.
I've yet to reset my default browser from Chrome. Win10 hasn't popped up notifications, or reset it itself. Everything people have been having issue with Win10 has yet to affect me. So it seems whatever default Win10 settings affect people who don't personalize their settings.
I don't know why but I just hate their tagline so much I never tried their garbage browser.
wget
Can you keep our UAC settings between updates? I'm really sick of having to disable UAC again every time an update comes down.
Someone correct me but wasn't MS forced to provide the default program option because of just this happening? All the millions of dollars wasted getting a conviction for being a abusive monopoly and here we go again same issues and many more on top of that. It time for a break up people.
Jack of all trades,master of none
There needs to be *something* available to download your preferred browser when things stop working (or with a fresh install).
I think we need to move past this claim that a browser is some optional application like Quickbooks.
wget
That works, and so do text-only browsers. But, throughout all of my time of using (mainstream) browsers, I have not had one come to such an irreparable state that I could not download either a different browser or a different version of the same browser.
Sure, it seems (I guess) like generosity on the part of MS to provide a fallback means to getting Chrome or Opera back if one of them completely fails, but how often does that actually happen? How often are users left with no browser at all because it has become crippled in such a way that makes it impossible to get another browser/copy of browser?
Clearly Windows isn't ready for the desktop.
While this isn't a option for most people, the Windows 10 LTSB is what Windows 10 should be.
No Edge.
No Store (this can be sideloaded though).
No Cortana.
Control over updates/reboots
Control over telemetry data.
Have you used Vivaldi?
MS is doing you favour by resetting to Edge...
My notion is that when you use Internet Explorer and not Edge, microsoft will deliberatly make IE crash to promote usage of Edge browser.
There needs to be *something* available to download your preferred browser when things stop working (or with a fresh install).
I think we need to move past this claim that a browser is some optional application like Quickbooks.
Yes an OS should come with a minimal browser to get you started. Once you've downloaded a replacement, you should be able to uninstall that minimal browser or at least totally remove it from your desktop
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
Complaining about Microsoft is like complaining about partisan politics in the U.S. We'll deride the two-party system just as we will lash out a MS, but when it comes decision making time, most of us get in line like lemmings.
If you don't like systemd, you're free to choose a Linux distro which doesn't have it. There are plenty of such distros around, including Slackware and Devuan. And if that's not good enough for you, you're free to roll your own distro. It isn't that hard to do, and all the components are freely available.
Try that with Windows.
All the monopoly regulations on them expired and with Apple and Linux where they are now, you'd have a lot of trouble convincing a court MS is a monopoly. In the desktop market they are still the big dog, but Apple is a major competitor. Macs are all over the place. In the server market MS is a big player, but so is Linux. I don't know what the split is, but it wouldn't surprise me to find out Linux is on top. In the mobile arena MS is a nothing. Linux (in the form of Android) is by far the biggest with iOS coming in #2.
Thus there's no argument to be made for a monopoly position. When there's very real competition out there in all segments of your market, you aren't a monopoly. Well if you aren't a monopoly, then anti-competition laws don't apply. Companies are free to lock-in their own solution. Again for a great example see Apple, who (tried to) lock their software to their hardware and puts everything in their own controlled ecosystem.
Sorry, but the MS monopoly ship has sailed. Unless the market changes significantly, they are just another player, which means they can do this kind of thing.
Hahahaha!!! You really think Trump's DOJ is going to prosecute that case? Wake up.
... nobody would care. How can they build browsers for 20+ years and STILL fuck it up?
The problem is bigger than you.
Are these posts some kind of botnet C&C or something?
Obama was just a much better liar than trump
Nobody likes or wants systemd in the professional linux houses I work with and for. It was forced on us, and most use it rather than have to deal with forks and other distro madness that was (almost) getting worked out before Pottering and his claque decided to impose a solution in search of a problem.
Signed,
AC who's been working with computers since 1969, so don't tell me what I know.
PS Captcha is pitiful, just like pulse audio and systemd.
It reset the default browser after the big October update; re-enabled Cortana and put it back on the task bar if you'd disabled it IIRC. Several updates (including the big October one) have also put Edge and the Windows Store back in your task bar if you had unpinned them.
Didn't happen to me. I've got three Win10 machines and also remove/hide/disable Cortana, Edge and the MS Store, and haven't seen them again since. Are these updates different based on location?
People who opted in to receive the free update to Win 10...
They should fix that.
>never will actually do any good
Well, jsut off the top of my head, the Cayahoga river no longer burns (go look it up) and:
1)
Cap and trade legislation from the EPA curtailed then massively reduced "acid rain ". Go look it up; cap and trade works.
2)
Research air quality in LA 1950 - 1980.
Note the huge increase in air quality after passage of environmental laws (state and federal) about cleaner-burning cars.
Note that China, rapidly industrializing without such environmental laws, is choking on toxic smoke and drinking toxic water.
3)
Go fuck yourself.
I think another angle is there is a longstanding behavior for users to not use the built-in Windows browser. The fact the name "changed" from IE to Edge doesn't factor for people. They just go "Oh, this is that Windows browser again? Well, disable as usual and download the one I always use."
Those people were too trusting for too long. You wouldn't give service people their own keys so they can pop by your home unannounced at all hours to "fix" shit for you, why would you let them do that on your computer. I've always disabled/rejected automatic updates and "error reporting" and so should everyone.
Realize that Microsoft's security updates are worth about as much as a pea shooter against a fleet of tanks, and that not wandering into a war zone (of malware) is infinitely more effective, with or without said updates. With that in mind, people should fully turn OFF updates in their Windows <10 machine and take THEIR security into THEIR hands like adults. It's easier than most people think - doing LESS is actually safer. Just don't be a moron who clicks on and accepts everything that blinks and jiggles and sparkles and says YOU HAVE MESSAGES or YOU ARE INFECTED and asks for your full billing information. And for fuck sake, use decent passwords. "password1" everywhere doesn't cut it.
Windows 7 > Control Panel > All Control Panel Items > Windows Update > Change Settings > Choose how Windows can install updates:
a) Install updates automatically (recommended) (MS' opinion, not mine)
b) Download updates but let me choose whether to install them
c) Check for updates but let me choose whether to download and install them
d) Never check for updates (not recommended) (MS' opinion, not mine)
I think, during the height of the forced Windows 10 upgrades, people using option B were getting hit. The Windows 10 virus was already allowed to download itself onto their machines, and it just waited for a reboot/scheduled update time to take effect. My system was on option C and was fine for a long time, but I eventually switched it to option D just to be safe (the presumed irony). I think that was around the "red X = approval" debacle. While it was on option C, I always saw the notice about "updates available" come up and, if clicked, it would bring up the dialog with a list of available updates for me to choose to download or skip, but I didn't want to accidentally approve something. I might be a bit too loopy at 4am after a 12 hour programming stint some day and let it through.
It's understandable that there are so many people who are afraid of picking option D.
I have a zealously anti-Windows coworker (well two but one is significantly more paranoid) who thinks that just leaving a freshly installed and connected Windows machine on and idle for twenty minutes means it's going to be fully pwned and under total hacker control. "B-b-b-b-but hackers scan the IP range ... and b-b-b-backdoor through the services!" Makes me wonder whether he makes terrible decisions as a user and blames the machine or just buys all the F.U.D. he reads at face value. His stories of confusion and helplessness when he has to do something on a Windows machine dispel the impression that, as a Linux user, he's all-knowing and suggests that, perhaps, Linux has provided him security through obscurity.
I haven't run into any viruses. I browse with Chrome + AdBlock Plus (not even paranoid enough to use Ghostery and noscript), never open junk mail or unexpected attachments (not that I get much of either), and I'm very careful with pirated stuff. Never had my identity stolen either. Clearly I am a unicorn.
This is why we use either Linux or OS X. :)
I find it to be no problem at all to install Debian without systemd. Sure, if you want the last bit of inert systemd cruft to be removed, it takes a bit more effort, but even that is hardly "impossible". On the other hand, there are enough morons that do not see that systemd is really a power-grab to the detriment of Linux.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
Come to think of, "alternate fact" needs to be made term of the year. Fascinating how these people utterly disgrace themselves right on the first day. Let's see how long Trump manages before he gets impeached.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
I think MS needs to be threatened with a 500M fine again by the EU...
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
Sounds like criminal anti-competitive practices to me. Well, they will do it until they get slapped down. Would not be the first time.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
My impression is that MS is not even trying anymore. Win 10 becomes less and less ready for the desktop.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
Pro tip: if the only way you can get people to install your product is by tricking, browbeating, and pestering them, your product probably sucks.
What most users want, yeah, like taking away standard ports and replacing them with $25 dongles
It's strange how angry Linux supporters get about how it isn't really possible to remove IE or Edge from Windows without breaking things.
Linux supporter here. I don't give a fuck about it.
Nobody likes or wants systemd in the professional linux houses I work with and for. It was forced on us, and most use it rather than have to deal with forks and other distro madness that was (almost) getting worked out before Pottering and his claque decided to impose a solution in search of a problem.
It wasn't forced upon anybody. If you don't like the decisions of the upstream then do something about it, either yourself or by paying somebody else to. If you're going to suggest that a change you dislike to an open source program you use that you then pulled the update for was "forced" on you then just abandon open source and run to the arms of Microsoft. ...oh and just because you're old doesn't mean anything, in fact you're either old and senile or you're old and you still lack the ability to understand open source.
AC who's been working with computers since 1969, so don't tell me what I know.
You mean that for all the bitching about lazy ass millennials it's actually the old graybeards that are too lazy and cheap to do anything about a situation they have total control over.
Never heard of ftp? It comes with every OS.
You stupid children these days. You honestly think you need a web browser to download another web browser? Go learn something about computers, junior.
Someone needs to create a Windows 10 ONLY mutation engine virus - one that completely wipes Windows 10 off the users system, then downloads and installs Linux!
Just remember "Windows isn't a virus, viruses do something!"
Bring back Opera 12.18 series - everyone KNOWS it's better than the advertising machines browsers out here now (script heavy dependence) - please... do it!
* You'll do great @ it man!
Why?
Hey, to this VERY day it's the ONLY real high-performance super-flexible browser out there that to this very day is MORE flexible & powerful natively w/ no addons required to be great unlike other browsers, that there is (bar-none even though you abandoned it).
I understand "$" talks - but it can work AGAINST you & this whole "ChOpera" thing IS working against you, badly (this 'new hotness' Chrome based CRAP is bullshit slow crap, not 'better' - far from it!)
APK
P.S.=> I heard the code leaked - that, sux... why? Google Chrome EFast is what will happen (I bet your current employers did it IF anyone did so that WOULD happen & so any "newly released" browsers based on said 'leaked' code surface will NOT be trusted - that is, UNLESS they come from you, straight from the horses-mouth so to speak)... apk
Well, technically it is a violation of the federal anti-hacking laws to alter, view or delete data on someones computer without permission. Now, I am sure that MS lawyers would argue that by installing windows updates you are granting them just that permission, but it seems to me that any impartial judge would agree with an argument to the effect that this implicit permission has limits and that MS doesn't have Cart Blanche to do anything to your system that they want during an update.
perhaps a quick trip down to the local Federal Court would settle this matter.
HAHA, I USED THE WORD QUICK IN A DESCRIPTION OF A LEGAL PROCESS.....
HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!
Well, that and Edge just plain sucks.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
Yes an OS should come with a minimal browser to get you started. Once you've downloaded a replacement, you should be able to uninstall that minimal browser or at least totally remove it from your desktop
Some OSes do, most don't. In fact often the system relies on browser components because they've become integral to personal computing, iOS and OSX for example do not let you uninstall the browser at all, the former doesn't let you even install a replacement. If you want a barebones OS with no programs that you then have to go and download every little bit you need then you can go and get a minimal Linux distro.
This isn't 1995 anymore, the web is prevalent and it is expected that a computer (or computing device) be fully functional out of the box, not force the user to then have to go and install components that in this day and age are reasonably expected to already be there.
Between the 5 or so computers I use on a regular basis...all with Win 10....I use FF or Chrome as the default browser...never once has Win 10 changed it on its own.
Sounds like the article writer of vivaldi's bitchfest's friend clicked on it.
I think MS should pull all the licenses from all EU citizens, paying them the $30 equivalent "worth" for each install of an MS product and then start suing people when they don't comply
F the EU
Which is 4 times too many
So don't use it then.
@Anonymous Coward: "I've been using win 10 for well over a year and it has never reset my browser. I'm sure his friend opened Edge and clicked yes to the "make this your default browser" dialog. Every browser has these popups. This is a non issue in my opinion."
It's understandable why you would want to remain anonymous.
"you can set Firefox as the default web browser but not really the option on the update to by pass it." Joy Kemprai - Microsoft
wget
Only criminals use wget.
@Anonymous Coward: "It's strange how angry Linux supporters get about how it isn't really possible to remove IE or Edge from Windows without breaking things. They will act all outraged and indignant. Yet these same people are perfectly fine with systemd being pretty much unremovable in most recent Linux distros."
It's understandable why you would want to remain anonymous. Why would Linux supporters give a fig about Microsoft resetting the default browser to Edge when Linux users don't come across Edge on the Linux desktop?
You do have a point that the browser should not be minimal, along with the mail program, word processor, spreadsheet, photo and video editing software etc.
On the other hand, internet access is pretty common now and people should be able to have choice including at least changing their defaults, removing icons from the desktop and have their choice stick.
Apple and especially IOS are special cases and expecting much out of them for choice is like expecting choice in a console.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
You don't read people at all then. His lies were the most obvious fucking thing in the universe, which is why we despised him so much. "Alternative facts" are different pages from the same book but I'm sure we'll usurp/appropriate/glorify that term just like every other slur you tried to throw at us. Your hate feeds the beast and you know nothing but hate. Goodnight, Democratic Party.
Poke out all their eyes, and maybe they will.
And where is the EU this time?
After having a remote machine running Win10 go into an eternal reboot loop after forcing us to run win update to install a driver for a Roland USB MIDI dongle, not being able to boot into safe mode, and having to drive over there on very short notice to fix it, I have now had it with MS. After all the telemetry crap, the forced updates, f-ing ads in the start menu (!), etc etc My next laptop will be a mac book pro, and every where else i will be running either debian linux or OS X. I am a professional developer for 15+ years, targeting mainly the windows platform, but now i'm willing to go the extra length to finally learn some cross platform frameworks and dev on linux only.
not on any of my windows 10 boxes
I don't think the issue is the OS
heard the term PEBCAK?
no it doesnt
You do have a point that the browser should not be minimal, along with the mail program, word processor, spreadsheet, photo and video editing software etc.
Just about every computer user is going to need a browser, the other things you listed...not so much.
Apple and especially IOS are special cases and expecting much out of them for choice is like expecting choice in a console.
They aren't 'special cases'. The fact that they don't give you choice at all makes them 'special'? Maybe Microsoft should just take away choice completely and become 'special' like Apple.
Sarah?
(N/T)
Microsoft and other companies have demonstrated for decades that complaints do not affect them. I don't understand why people keep trying. Companies do not have moral compasses. They speak only one language: money. The very definition of a corporation is a machine; a printing press that prints money for its shareholders and employees, and it can sue and be sued just like a person. That's it. People are acting like they can point fingers at the printing press and say, "Bad Corporation!!" and that will somehow make a difference. Microsoft (and most other companies) will always be shameless and that will never, ever change.
If you want a company to change, you must speak to it in the only language it understands: money. Stop whining about the behavior Microsoft has displayed for decades. If you want things to change, STOP GIVING MICROSOFT YOUR MONEY.
To whose who hate Microsoft, I agree. You're right. They're evil, they're bad, whatever. But it's been DECADES. Shut the fuck up and switch to another operating system already.
How many more years of Microsoft ignoring complaints from hundreds of millions of people across the globe does it take before people finally realize complaining, bad press, protests, and lawsuits don't work? STOP GIVING MICROSOFT YOUR MONEY.
STOP GIVING MICROSOFT YOUR MONEY. Is there any part of that you neophytes don't understand? STOP GIVING MICROSOFT YOUR MONEY. Now get the hell off my lawn.
If you use ftp or telnet today you are a total buffoon.
not on any of my windows 10 boxes
Have you ever heard about things that do not happen to you but still do happen to others, for reasons they have no control over?
Such things exist.
I don't think the issue is the OS
Right.
heard the term PEBCAK?
Certainly. Heard the term "moron"? Because you are one.
More like 5 times too many--counting the original installation that sets them up as defaults to start with.
Am I the only one who uses the command-line ftp tool to ftp into ftp.mozilla.org (or ftp.opera.no) and download a browser?
You have no idea how laws work. If MS were to do that, they would cease to exist and its executives would be sitting in prison for computer sabotage. If you sell something to somebody, you cannot unilaterally cancel the trade afterwards. But yes, you are stupid, so I cannot really expect you to even know the basics.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
Yeah, that one's a pain in the arse. Removing the folder from Quick Access will make it behave itself again.
Obviously we need a real fix but I won't be holding my breath.
It's never too late to have a happy childhood.
Curl?
init.d is a directory name, not a program. There were (and are) several SysV-style init programs for Linux.
Is that you, Poettering? Your usual level of knowledge is showing...
no, when the same people were faced with systemd we switched - because there were options. I traded rolling releases for sysvinit. sucks to lose functionality, but that was the choice.
I'm usually irritated that Godwin has replaced the H-word with the T-word, but in this case, you're spot-on
Obaba waged The War Against Terrorism, while giving or selling weapons to the terrorists, in the name of democracy and human rights.
An example why this goes deep into the "alternate fact" category : Obama's French lackeys officially supported and encouraged insurrection, but French citizens who went to Syria to wage Jihad, often lured by humanitarian goals, and later returned to France were often imprisoned on terrorism charges. So which is it? Do we want citizens to bear arms and blow up police and military personnel and stuff, or do we want them not to do it because terrorism?
No one was impeached over this stuff.
vivaldi this is clone chrome,no true opera presto,seo vivaldi dismissed from opera in Norway
Zero fucks were given in Redmond that day.
It does this because the big "updates" are actually complete installs, in and of themselves. That is, when you update it literally re-installs itself rather than an incremental update of changed files.
And yes, it is exactly as lazy and stupid as it sounds. Microsoft figured that if Google/Apple can get away with it on mobile devices, why not PCs?
The update process is akin to how updates on mobile devices work. A big Windows update essentially re-images the system portion and leaves user data alone. They're getting ready for a future "Windows 10 as firmware" scenario.
It does do it. I had Firefox set as default browser and after the upgrade to the next insider reease it was switched to Edge.
I am not sure if it's different with the non-insider release builds, but I suspect not!
Martley, Near Worcester UK.
In my case, I have received a message once saying that chrome encountered some error so my browser was reset to default. Happened once only.
If you don't want to use Systemd, don't use it. It's not forced on anyone.
BeauHD. Worst editor since kdawson.
Regarding my note from earlier this morning... So I just received a brand new win10pro PC from dell to set up for work today.
The "use color on title bar" option was turned off by default, and all the windows looked exactly the same.
If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
Or another computer.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Is it better in that respect than any other respin of Dead Rat 6?
Genuine question, posting this from CentOS.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."