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Microsoft Seeks Trump Order Exemption for Workers With Visas (bloomberg.com)
Microsoft is asking U.S. officials to grant exceptions for law-abiding, visa-holding workers and students from President Donald Trump's immigration order, channeling the outrage expressed by many in the technology industry with a proposed solution. From a report: Such individuals are low-risk -- having already undergone a rigorous vetting process -- and face immediate hardship as a result of last week's order, Microsoft President and Chief Legal Officer Brad Smith said in a letter Thursday to the secretaries of State and Homeland Security. Smith said he believes the two officials are empowered to take the necessary steps to allow certain people entry into the country. The exemptions sought would cover workers with visas sponsored by U.S.-based companies and students with ones obtained via a U.S.-based school.
Just expire all their Windows licences. I am sure Microsoft has a way to justify it somewhere in the EULA.
Look at what they did to the USS Yorktown!
# Trump/Bannon settings:
ALL: ALL
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That's what he wants. It's what he needs to feel important and the more you give into it, the more he's going to keep doing these stupid, stupid things.
This isn't about getting more Americans employed. It's about punishing people who wouldn't kowtow to him and his corrupt cronies. It's about hurting those he thinks need to be hurt.
He doesn't understand the world or how it works. He couldn't care less about you or I or how well we are employed. Neither can anyone else in his administration. Don't fool yourself into thinking that is a good thing. It's not. It's only going to hurt us more and more each day it goes on. It's going to hurt the prestige of the nation. It's going to hurt the economic prospects going forward. It's going to affect each and everyone of us in subtle and not so subtle ways. It already has.
Jokes on you MS. Making deals with the government to usurp American privacy (OneDrive, Skype, PRISM) and you think you'll get special treatment?
I highly doubt that Microsoft has many non-replacable workers from Iraq, Iran, Syria, Yemen, Sudan, Libya and Somalia in their employ that are actively traveling to their homelands. I also doubt they are going out of their way to hire refugees from these countries. If these people like their jobs then let them become citizens.
I do not belong to the church of the lowercase 'i'
Speaking as someone who has spent thousands of dollars in legal assistance getting the appropriate visa in place allowing me to work in the US (but luckily am not from one of the countries in the executive order)... go fuck yourself. This isn't about American jobs, its about screwing over people you don't like and trying to win political points with morons.
People have spent years getting those visas. People may have even been living the in US for decades. This is not a moratorium on new visas, this is retroactively screwing people who have followed the process to get into the US legally.
.
"This is not about H1-B
"The exemptions sought would cover workers with visas sponsored by U.S.-based companies"
It is indeed right in the summary... did you not know that H1Bs are visas for workers sponsored by U.S. Based companies?
It's bullshit, though. It doesn't matter if you're an American either, you have to give up your constitutional liberty and abandon all integrity in your interpretation of the rule of law unless you can convince yourself that doing whatever Trump tells you, in the name of God, is the only way to save your eternal soul.
This just proves that Microsoft just doesn't get it. The whole point of Trump's administration is to make American companies hire American workers. Too bad if outsourced workers are cheaper, AMERICANS NEED JOBS!
And you wonder why they'd rather hire a "terrorist" over you. Entitlement much?
Yes you could rely on the lying MSM to tell you what they want it to mean. Or you could read the real thing here.
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
Here is spacious NYC 550 square feet is a decent sized one bedroom.
My Silicon Valley studio apartment is only 475 square feet. Could be worse. A relative bought a $1M+ five-bedroom house in Gilroy that had a wet bar larger than my kitchen and a kitchen larger than my apartment. Very obscene. Although the mountain lion watching the BBQ from the other side of a 20-foot-tall wired fence was very cool.
The workers MS bring in AREN'T cheaper, they are paid at the same rate as US workers or in most cases higher.
But you can't hire Americans and ask them to work 80+ hours a week under the threat of deportation.
If you post as Anonymous Coward, don't expect a reply.
Well to be fair, what's the point of having a country at all if it doesn't entitle you to anything? Just somewhere to throw away your taxes in the hope that you'll get drafted for a war you don't wanna fight?
>> Such individuals are low-risk --
Nice deflection attempt by Microsoft, but Its not about terrorism, its about taking jerbs from US workers.
They should be subject to the 150,000$ a year if they want to keep them... after all there are only 2 arguments that could be made..
1) They wanted cheap labor and hired a foreign worker instead of an american because they could pay them less.
2) They found a highly skilled foreigner that has a unmatched skill set they could find in america.
Both problems are solved with paying that worker 150,000$ a year... They wont keep around someone at that pay rate that isn't worth it. and if they are that good... they should be able to stay.
Who needs WiFi when we can have Packet Over Sheep! http://datacomm.org/PoS-InternetDraft.txt
A friend of a friend on Facebook is Iranian by birth. She has lived 20+ years in Australia and is an Australian citizen. She has also previously lived 5+ years in the UK and is now in the middle of a 5+ year stint in the US. She does not have a green card but is working in the US under a valid US work visa (but I don't know which class). She has had to cancel 5 international business trips in the short term because as per Trump if she leaves the US the immigration lawyers at her work have said as a best guess that she won't be able to re-enter.
How's that for fucking over your friends.
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Err...I believe there was a clarification yesterday ( maybe from the State Dept?) that said green card holders were not part of the temporary halt of immigration from those 7 countries into the US.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
Applying the order to those already in possession of visas and green cards sure looks like the DHS bureaucracy doing a mini-rebellion by applying the EO to its most extreme levels, rather than using good legal reasoning based on due process. It's clear from the text of the EO that they were to implement it "to the extent allowed by law" which does not permit abuse of discretion. Sometimes people in agencies will cynically implement an order in a way as to inconvenience those it isn't intended to cover to generate outrage.
Started as plausible, finished as crazy. Loved it.
What's crazy?
http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-search/Gilroy_CA/beds-5-5
PLEASE post under a real username...so someone can/will mod you up!!!
I couldn't have put it any better.
Yes...if you are a US citizen, you *SHOULD* have first preference to a job in your own country.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
People get screwed in business all the time, don't know why work visas should be completely risk-free
It's not entitlement because its not a level playing field.
in real money terms, the living costs for foreign workers, and their families in their own country is WAY cheaper than what US citizens and their families in the US need to just get by.
Speaking as someone who has spent thousands of dollars in legal assistance getting the appropriate visa in place allowing me to work in the US (but luckily am not from one of the countries in the executive order)... go fuck yourself. This isn't about American jobs, its about screwing over people you don't like and trying to win political points with morons.
People have spent years getting those visas. People may have even been living the in US for decades. This is not a moratorium on new visas, this is retroactively screwing people who have followed the process to get into the US legally.
I don't get it either.
The order does not affect people from other countries, it doesn't affect people from your country, and it specifically doesn't affect *you*.
It doesn't affect 87% of all Muslims, so it isn't a ban, and it affects the 10% Christian populations of those countries and other religions, so it isn't a religious thing.
And the DHS has further clarified the executive order by saying that it doesn't affect green-card holders.
Furthermore, many countries don't allow immigration at all, and many other countries have onerous requirements to immigrate, so the US is not unusual in that regard. Obama banned immigration from Cuba, and Carter banned immigration from Iran with no fanfare.
The "no fanfare" bit - was that because Obama and Carter were Democrat? Or was there some other difference(*) that no one has noticed?
Muslims in the US have come out in favor of extreme vetting, some Muslim *countries* have come out in favor of the ban, and the president's approval rating has jumped 5 points.
Add in the fact that this is a temporary ban, that the order specifically directs the departments to sort it out, and that this was a campaign promise... it looks less like a fascist order and more like a reasonable and prudent order(*).
I *honestly* don't see why anyone thinks that this is a big deal.
It rather looks suspiciously like an issue of convenience - something people can protest without actually caring about which side they're on.
Is it anything else?
Can someone explain how this is anything to get worked up over?
(*) And for the record, Section 212(f) of the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952:
"Whenever the president finds that the entry of aliens or of any class of aliens into the United States would be detrimental to the interests of the United States, the president may, by proclamation, and for such period as he shall deem necessary, suspend the entry of all aliens or any class of aliens as immigrants or non-immigrant's or impose on the entry of aliens any restrictions he may deem to be appropriate."
Obama used this same law at least six times between 2010 and 2014 against people in Iraq, Iran, Syria, and Crimea without even a whimper from the ACLU, ADL, John McCain, Gender Netural Graham, Chuck You Schumer, Hillary, Mark Zuckerberg, Hollywood elites, or the establishment globalist media.
Speaking as someone who has spent thousands of dollars in legal assistance getting the appropriate visa in place allowing me to work in the US... go fuck yourself.
Why do you think your ability to work in the US should be prioritized over interests of US citizens and US tech workers? Do you think USA could have a legitimate right to turn you away for any reason whatsoever, no matter how misguided such reason might be?
I do not live or work in US, so this is neutral third-party question.
If we pull Men's and Boys's Cotton Shorts and Trousers manufacture to American factories from China, a few things will happen depending on a few factors.
If we pay the factory workers more than $18/hr, we'll lose American jobs. There will be fewer American jobs in total. This is because the ability of Americans to buy MBCST decreases thanks to the price increasing. As the wage increases, the price increases; and as the price increases, fewer factory jobs are created and more infrastructure jobs (shipping, retail, etc.) are lost.
If we pay the factory workers less than $18/hr, we'll gain total American jobs for the same reason.
The more we pay the American factory workers, the greater the increase in total hours Americans must work to pay for MBCST. That is to say: Americans become poorer. The median wage today is $27/hr, and the average cost of a pair of MBCST is 0.55 labor hours at $27/hr. If we pay the factory workers $21/hr, then the average cost to the median American income is 1.87 hours; and if we pay them $8.25/hr (minimum wage), the average cost is 0.93 hours.
This works inversely for the factory workers themselves: the less we pay them, the poorer they are. That should be obvious; the only thing worth indicating here is that raising factory worker pay takes the same American monetary spending power (amount of dollars spendable) and concentrates it into fewer hands (number of workers receiving that money). At current, a $21/hr worker pays 0.71 hours for a pair of MBCST; if they were made by $21/hr factory workers, the factory workers would pay 2.4 hours per pair. Likewise, an $8.25/hr worker pays 1.81 hours today for a pair of MBCST; if we pay the factory workers $8.25/hr, then they will pay 3.03 hours per pair.
Of final note: it costs under $1,300 to import a 40-foot shipping container from China, which carries 20,000 pairs of trousers. That's 6.5 cents per pair. The average cost of the trousers at import is $6.12; the average retail price is $14.97. Cashiers perform 998 scans per hour on average--at minimum wage, 0.83 cents per item. Nearly half the ultimate cost of trousers is shipping; and in general the businesses make around a 10% overall profit margin (gross margins are higher than real profit margins because they exclude the cost of running the business itself), so about 90% of the price is generally the actual cost. That means we're not going to save a damned thing on shipping over the water.
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Actually, how many employees does Microsoft have from Syria, Iraq, Iran, Sudan, Yemen, Somalia and Libya? I thought that most of their foreign employees would be people from Europe, China and India, who are untouched by this order (which applies only from the above countries)
Result 1: American company hires more American workers, pays them good wages, everybody lives happily ever after.
Result 2: American company hires more American workers, pays them good wages, costs go up, company can't compete with Chinese competitor, shuts down, eliminates many more jobs than H-1Bs.
Result 3: American company open foreign campus, shuts down American campus, eliminates many more jobs than H-1Bs.
Things like H-1Bs and outsourcing and illegal immigration are all just symptoms of wealth imbalance in the world. They're like relief valves that equalize pressure between hot and cold economies. Closing them without addressing the underlying issues may not have pleasant results.
How can I believe you when you tell me what I don't want to hear?
I heard yesterday about a senior executive at Oracle who regularly travels internationally to places like China for meetings with suppliers. He manages about 500 people. He's now stuck in the country and unable to do a large part of his job because he happened to be born in Iran. "Make America Great Again" my ass.
Drill baby drill - on Mars
America is for Native Americans
If you're not a Native American, KINDLY GET OUT
doesn't matter if you're smart, honest, well behaved, a perfect employee or even run your own company, GET OUT, THANK YOU. ENJOY YOUR OWN HOMELAND
FTFY
They want to get an exception for the new $130,000 minimum wage for H1B workers.
Green cards are not visas. The two are completely unrelated.
A green card is a non-expiring, permanent resident work permit. It confers a right to permanent residency within the U.S., and provides a path to citizenship.
A visa provides temporary entry into the U.S. for various purposes, including tourism, work, education, etc. You've probably heard of some of the work visas, such as H-1B, H-2B, L-1A, L-1B, R-1, etc. There are also specific types of student visas, such as F-1, J-1, and M-1. Some visas allow you to leave and reenter the country, e.g. F-1 and J-1. Some allow you to work, e.g. H*, L*, R*, and J-1. And some just let you be a tourist, e.g. B-1, B-2, etc.
Allowing green card holders to come back to the U.S. is basically unavoidable. They're legal residents of the United States with homes, families, etc. That's also true for many of the visa types, but those folks are currently screwed, which is nothing short of appalling. And it is particularly heinous for students whose schools have a January term (and who thus took the month of January as an extended vacation) who are now trapped outside the country, unable to return to school, potentially losing scholarships, etc., all because our President doesn't know the difference between a green card, a visa, and refugee status admission.
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Or maybe, just maybe, the Iranian government screwed her over?
By your logic anyone who is Iranian by birth* is tainted and thus should be treated with distrust, and there no is manner by which they can prove their humanity.
Pissing off innocent people is not a good way to win hearts and minds and plays directly into the hands of those who would be easily radicalized. Thus making the global terror situation worse than it is now.
*Is there a lower age limit by which an Iranian is so tainted? Or in your mind does terrorism begin at conception?
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I know a lot of people that don't want to telecommute. There's value on having your team nearby and having the ability to work together in person.
"Allow proper vetting"? WTF are you smoking? Visas are issued by US consulates, host countries have nothing to do with them.
And if she had a stamp in her passport from Israel, she would be executed upon entry into Iran (actually factually true).
True but irrelevant.
Sorry she comes from a shithole, but the "ban" is Trump's attempt to force those countries to vet the people getting visas so we can tell they are not terrorists coming to kill US citizens.
She already has the Visa. She has been vetted. She is already here.
Once those countries comply and allow proper vetting, they get taken off the list.
Umm .. you do realize that it is the US that is doing the vetting don't you? Do you?
They refuse to comply, the ban will be extended past the original 120 days. As soon as those idiots stop thinking coming to the US to kill us is a good idea, they will be treated better. Until then, I don't really care how long they are banned.
It's the banning the people who are coming here with good intentions that is the issue. But you seem hung up on THE EVIL TERRORISTS THAT LURK IN EVERY SHADOW.
When did it become evil to even TRY to protect US citizens from foreign terrorist? You realize you are arguing to benefit ISIS?
How the fuck is screwing over a person who has been vetted already has a visa protecting the US from terrorists? If anything it plays directly in to the easily radicalized by saying "look at how bad the US treats its friends. The US is obviously evil and doesn't want to give anyone else a fair chance".
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....if you're a sociopathic diva who likes to get a lot of attention.
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
Aww, she can't leave the country for a few months.
You really can't see past your nose can you. She is working in the US. Cancelling those BUSINESS trips causes financial harm to a US company. That screws over not just her but her fellow employees that ARE US Citizens. You know .. the sort of person you are, but with more common sense.
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Never mind that the chance an American will be killed by a foreign-born refugee is 1 in 3.64 billion.
http://www.businessinsider.com/what-is-the-risk-of-being-killed-by-a-foreign-terrorist-trump-ban2017-1
The CEO's are not getting that money.
The goal of a corporation is to raise the share price. No else. IT MUST GO UP every quarter FOREVER or the CEO is fired. Sure as CHina grows they buy more but you need to keep cutting costs in commodities like IT and workers to make Wall Street happy
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Chinese factories use the thinnest cheapest fabrics they can.
Chinese factories use exactly what they're told to. Manufacturing in China, and using literally cheap ass fabric, are both ways that the cost is reduced. Unrelated ways. China would happily use better fabric, they don't care, they just charge the US company appropriately. There's no reason to think the US company would pay for better fabric just because i stuff is made here.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
How qualified would Eric Trump be if his last name wasn't Trump?
He has terrific qualifications. Everybody agrees, he has fantastic qualifications. So there's no problem with his qualifications, believe me.
It is truly astonishing the extent to which this type of uncertainty about your country's own laws has become normalised - and so quickly too. In a stable Democracy, the stability of law is incredibly important. Knowing what you are, and are not, permitted to do - and being able to have enormous confidence that tomorrow the situation will be unchanged - is fundamental. And yet, here is the United States, in which the population is actually in the position of not knowing whether or not a particular person is permitted into their country - despite their being in possession of their "papers".
The whole pantomime has several different aims. Firstly we have Trump separating his supporters from his foes, and dealing with these discovered enemies swiftly. Secondly, the presidential decree itself, which is deliberately over-reached, so that it may be dialled back to the position they really want, and be made to appear reasonable. And of course, thirdly, to create the situation described above. To create uncertainty in the law itself, and thus keep a population fearful of what they might not be allowed to do tomorrow. Controlling a population is much easier if they're never quite sure of what their rights are.
Though the US has a deeply unhealthy relationship with firearms, it might yet pull itself out of this apparent nose-dive into a form of corporate totalitarianism by forming a decent citizens army, and dealing with these people in the only way that they deserve.
Good luck.
How much do those odds mean to the victims and their families of the WTC, San Bernadino, the Boston Marathon attacks, and others?
Shit happens. You're more likely to die from obesity (30,000 people per year), lightning strikes (10,000 people per year) or from being attacked by a shark (five people per year).
https://www.buzzfeed.com/awesomer/20-things-that-kill-more-people-than-sharks-every
These are people who HAVE visas to work in the United States. You know, vetted and approved already. It would be one thing to stop issuing visas, it's quite another to deny entry to people who already hold a valid visa.