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Microsoft Seeks Trump Order Exemption for Workers With Visas (bloomberg.com)
Microsoft is asking U.S. officials to grant exceptions for law-abiding, visa-holding workers and students from President Donald Trump's immigration order, channeling the outrage expressed by many in the technology industry with a proposed solution. From a report: Such individuals are low-risk -- having already undergone a rigorous vetting process -- and face immediate hardship as a result of last week's order, Microsoft President and Chief Legal Officer Brad Smith said in a letter Thursday to the secretaries of State and Homeland Security. Smith said he believes the two officials are empowered to take the necessary steps to allow certain people entry into the country. The exemptions sought would cover workers with visas sponsored by U.S.-based companies and students with ones obtained via a U.S.-based school.
This is about Micro$oft short changing American citizens on jobs by importing and hiring cheaper labor from other countries. Simple as that.
Just expire all their Windows licences. I am sure Microsoft has a way to justify it somewhere in the EULA.
This is not about H1-B
"The exemptions sought would cover workers with visas sponsored by U.S.-based companies and students with ones obtained via a U.S.-based school."
It is right in the summary....
Look at what they did to the USS Yorktown!
https://theduran.com/donald-tr...
They aren't doing "good things', unless you think slave owners hunting for their runaway slaves is a good thing.
# Trump/Bannon settings:
ALL: ALL
In a band? Use WheresTheGig for free.
You expect a two bedroom 1000sq ft apartment? Where the fook do you live? Here is spacious NYC 550 square feet is a decent sized one bedroom. You expect a foyer? Not here dude.
Seriously. 1000 square foot places in NYC (in nice areas) are an expensive, close to unaffordable, luxury.
If you're scared of your govt then you need to further restrict its powers
Vote 3rd Party in 2016 and beyond
That's what he wants. It's what he needs to feel important and the more you give into it, the more he's going to keep doing these stupid, stupid things.
This isn't about getting more Americans employed. It's about punishing people who wouldn't kowtow to him and his corrupt cronies. It's about hurting those he thinks need to be hurt.
He doesn't understand the world or how it works. He couldn't care less about you or I or how well we are employed. Neither can anyone else in his administration. Don't fool yourself into thinking that is a good thing. It's not. It's only going to hurt us more and more each day it goes on. It's going to hurt the prestige of the nation. It's going to hurt the economic prospects going forward. It's going to affect each and everyone of us in subtle and not so subtle ways. It already has.
Jokes on you MS. Making deals with the government to usurp American privacy (OneDrive, Skype, PRISM) and you think you'll get special treatment?
H1B's are supposed to be sponsored though this aspect is often abused.
I highly doubt that Microsoft has many non-replacable workers from Iraq, Iran, Syria, Yemen, Sudan, Libya and Somalia in their employ that are actively traveling to their homelands. I also doubt they are going out of their way to hire refugees from these countries. If these people like their jobs then let them become citizens.
I do not belong to the church of the lowercase 'i'
Speaking as someone who has spent thousands of dollars in legal assistance getting the appropriate visa in place allowing me to work in the US (but luckily am not from one of the countries in the executive order)... go fuck yourself. This isn't about American jobs, its about screwing over people you don't like and trying to win political points with morons.
People have spent years getting those visas. People may have even been living the in US for decades. This is not a moratorium on new visas, this is retroactively screwing people who have followed the process to get into the US legally.
.
First they came for immigrants but I am not an immigrant. Then they came for Muslims, but I am not a Muslim. Then they came for me... Oh wait - I work in Tech so screw the rest of you, all is well...
Microsoft do not compromise on bad policy. Do not ask for an exemption. Oppose bad policy or you are just as responsible as Trump for its implementation.
"This is not about H1-B
"The exemptions sought would cover workers with visas sponsored by U.S.-based companies"
It is indeed right in the summary... did you not know that H1Bs are visas for workers sponsored by U.S. Based companies?
Of course he is. That's why his businesses are busy seeking all the foreign worker visas they can get. And that's why the H-2A and H-2B visas his businesses use aren't on the list of visa types he wants to crack down on, either.
http://www.npr.org/2017/01/12/...
http://www.vox.com/policy-and-...
It's bullshit, though. It doesn't matter if you're an American either, you have to give up your constitutional liberty and abandon all integrity in your interpretation of the rule of law unless you can convince yourself that doing whatever Trump tells you, in the name of God, is the only way to save your eternal soul.
Hey Microsoft (and the others): How about you hire some of your American workers back?!?
This just proves that Microsoft just doesn't get it. The whole point of Trump's administration is to make American companies hire American workers. Too bad if outsourced workers are cheaper, AMERICANS NEED JOBS!
And you wonder why they'd rather hire a "terrorist" over you. Entitlement much?
Yes you could rely on the lying MSM to tell you what they want it to mean. Or you could read the real thing here.
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
Here is spacious NYC 550 square feet is a decent sized one bedroom.
My Silicon Valley studio apartment is only 475 square feet. Could be worse. A relative bought a $1M+ five-bedroom house in Gilroy that had a wet bar larger than my kitchen and a kitchen larger than my apartment. Very obscene. Although the mountain lion watching the BBQ from the other side of a 20-foot-tall wired fence was very cool.
How qualified would Eric Trump be if his last name wasn't Trump?
The workers MS bring in AREN'T cheaper, they are paid at the same rate as US workers or in most cases higher.
But you can't hire Americans and ask them to work 80+ hours a week under the threat of deportation.
If you post as Anonymous Coward, don't expect a reply.
Well to be fair, what's the point of having a country at all if it doesn't entitle you to anything? Just somewhere to throw away your taxes in the hope that you'll get drafted for a war you don't wanna fight?
Or no law at all. Make up your mind or we will make it up for you.
>> Such individuals are low-risk --
Nice deflection attempt by Microsoft, but Its not about terrorism, its about taking jerbs from US workers.
Started as plausible, finished as crazy. Loved it.
#DeleteFacebook
Americans need to finish their schools to qualify for these jobs too.
New factory jobs require a college degree. Something that most Trump voters don't possess.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/30/education/edlife/factory-workers-college-degree-apprenticeships.html
Somehow i feel most of the Trump voters would rather get a job in a car factory.
From the various articles of I've read, the ideal Trump voter is someone who wants a 1980's manufacturing job that doesn't require a high school diploma. Those jobs are not coming back.
Canada is part of North America, so by your definition I am American. Kindly get the fuck out of my way and remove all border stops when I try to go shopping in your giant U.S.A.-ians shopping malls.
A friend of a friend on Facebook is Iranian by birth. She has lived 20+ years in Australia and is an Australian citizen. She has also previously lived 5+ years in the UK and is now in the middle of a 5+ year stint in the US. She does not have a green card but is working in the US under a valid US work visa (but I don't know which class). She has had to cancel 5 international business trips in the short term because as per Trump if she leaves the US the immigration lawyers at her work have said as a best guess that she won't be able to re-enter.
How's that for fucking over your friends.
I am Slashdot. Are you Slashdot as well?
Err...I believe there was a clarification yesterday ( maybe from the State Dept?) that said green card holders were not part of the temporary halt of immigration from those 7 countries into the US.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
We rented an urban, asian, 4500 sq ft house for ca $1400/month in 2012. The lot it was on was worth about $3 million.
You just have to know how to shop...
Applying the order to those already in possession of visas and green cards sure looks like the DHS bureaucracy doing a mini-rebellion by applying the EO to its most extreme levels, rather than using good legal reasoning based on due process. It's clear from the text of the EO that they were to implement it "to the extent allowed by law" which does not permit abuse of discretion. Sometimes people in agencies will cynically implement an order in a way as to inconvenience those it isn't intended to cover to generate outrage.
Started as plausible, finished as crazy. Loved it.
What's crazy?
http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-search/Gilroy_CA/beds-5-5
Commenting to undo an erroneous mod...but fuck you.
PLEASE post under a real username...so someone can/will mod you up!!!
I couldn't have put it any better.
Yes...if you are a US citizen, you *SHOULD* have first preference to a job in your own country.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
Are you from Iran, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Somalia, Sudan or Yemen?
I doubt it.
My U.S. based IT company has 90% foreign born workers. Most are Indian. Some are Asian.
This E.O. has nothing to do with them. At all.
And as the token white guy, I wouldn't mind if Trump's proposed H1B reform makes things a little more diverse around here.
People get screwed in business all the time, don't know why work visas should be completely risk-free
We don't want or need foreign workers here. There is no labor shortage, there never was. You are only here because you value your time less than the typical American and American business knows and exploits this. Your presence here only benefits you and the company. What about the 300 million other natives? Fuck them too?
It's not entitlement because its not a level playing field.
in real money terms, the living costs for foreign workers, and their families in their own country is WAY cheaper than what US citizens and their families in the US need to just get by.
No it wasn't...troll
Speaking as someone who has spent thousands of dollars in legal assistance getting the appropriate visa in place allowing me to work in the US (but luckily am not from one of the countries in the executive order)... go fuck yourself. This isn't about American jobs, its about screwing over people you don't like and trying to win political points with morons.
People have spent years getting those visas. People may have even been living the in US for decades. This is not a moratorium on new visas, this is retroactively screwing people who have followed the process to get into the US legally.
I don't get it either.
The order does not affect people from other countries, it doesn't affect people from your country, and it specifically doesn't affect *you*.
It doesn't affect 87% of all Muslims, so it isn't a ban, and it affects the 10% Christian populations of those countries and other religions, so it isn't a religious thing.
And the DHS has further clarified the executive order by saying that it doesn't affect green-card holders.
Furthermore, many countries don't allow immigration at all, and many other countries have onerous requirements to immigrate, so the US is not unusual in that regard. Obama banned immigration from Cuba, and Carter banned immigration from Iran with no fanfare.
The "no fanfare" bit - was that because Obama and Carter were Democrat? Or was there some other difference(*) that no one has noticed?
Muslims in the US have come out in favor of extreme vetting, some Muslim *countries* have come out in favor of the ban, and the president's approval rating has jumped 5 points.
Add in the fact that this is a temporary ban, that the order specifically directs the departments to sort it out, and that this was a campaign promise... it looks less like a fascist order and more like a reasonable and prudent order(*).
I *honestly* don't see why anyone thinks that this is a big deal.
It rather looks suspiciously like an issue of convenience - something people can protest without actually caring about which side they're on.
Is it anything else?
Can someone explain how this is anything to get worked up over?
(*) And for the record, Section 212(f) of the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952:
"Whenever the president finds that the entry of aliens or of any class of aliens into the United States would be detrimental to the interests of the United States, the president may, by proclamation, and for such period as he shall deem necessary, suspend the entry of all aliens or any class of aliens as immigrants or non-immigrant's or impose on the entry of aliens any restrictions he may deem to be appropriate."
Obama used this same law at least six times between 2010 and 2014 against people in Iraq, Iran, Syria, and Crimea without even a whimper from the ACLU, ADL, John McCain, Gender Netural Graham, Chuck You Schumer, Hillary, Mark Zuckerberg, Hollywood elites, or the establishment globalist media.
Speaking as someone who has spent thousands of dollars in legal assistance getting the appropriate visa in place allowing me to work in the US... go fuck yourself.
Why do you think your ability to work in the US should be prioritized over interests of US citizens and US tech workers? Do you think USA could have a legitimate right to turn you away for any reason whatsoever, no matter how misguided such reason might be?
I do not live or work in US, so this is neutral third-party question.
Speaking as someone who has spent thousands of dollars in legal assistance getting the appropriate visa in place allowing me to work in the US (but luckily am not from one of the countries in the executive order)... go fuck yourself. This isn't about American jobs, its about screwing over people you don't like and trying to win political points with morons.
People have spent years getting those visas. People may have even been living the in US for decades. This is not a moratorium on new visas, this is retroactively screwing people who have followed the process to get into the US legally.
It could actually both be about American jobs and screwing over people you don't like to win political points. There's nothing about one that prevents the other.
You might want to ramp your hysterical reaction down a notch or two. No legal residents are being kicked out. Some who left the country are having trouble getting back in, but nobody here is being kicked out. I read recently about a guy who has lived in the US for over 20 years and his children are young adults and naturalized citizens. For some reason Dad doesn't want to get US citizenship, so he's now in trouble because he travels outside the USA all the time on work and he's an Iranian passport holder. I admit to not really seeing the point in targeting people like him, but I have to ask why he hasn't applied for American citizenship yet. Maybe if he needs an Iranian passport to work in countries hostile towards the USA, he needs to consider getting a new job. I personally know immigrants who the first chance they could they applied for US citizenship and got tested and they are proud to be Americans. Maybe it's inconvenient for him but the truth is that having US citizenship provides protections that don't exist otherwise. As long as you are a long time legal resident without citizenship, you're always going to be at some level of risk that Uncle Sam might not want to extend your stay.
Actually, how many employees does Microsoft have from Syria, Iraq, Iran, Sudan, Yemen, Somalia and Libya? I thought that most of their foreign employees would be people from Europe, China and India, who are untouched by this order (which applies only from the above countries)
Okay if you can not prove you are a minimum 25% Native American then Please Return to Your Own Homeland.
By Strict Standards Mexicans have more of a right than most Texans do
A friend of a friend on Facebook is Iranian by birth. She has lived 20+ years in Australia and is an Australian citizen. She has also previously lived 5+ years in the UK and is now in the middle of a 5+ year stint in the US. She does not have a green card but is working in the US under a valid US work visa (but I don't know which class). She has had to cancel 5 international business trips in the short term because as per Trump if she leaves the US the immigration lawyers at her work have said as a best guess that she won't be able to re-enter.
How's that for fucking over your friends.
Or maybe, just maybe, the Iranian government screwed her over?
AMERICANS NEED JOBS!
Which is exactly what you get when foreign engineering and design firms which operate from nations with permissive immigration for STEM talent outsource their low-wage manual labor jobs here for manufacture. What? You want those corporations and their profits to stay here? Forget that, you just walled off the vast international source of talent from domestic high-tech companies which need access to succeed.
Ceteris paribus, the most successful companies are those with the best access to resources, not those with the most limited access to resources. Labor is a resource.
Engineering and design work supports an umbrella of labor: managers, accountants, IT, safety, etc. If your company fails because misguided nationalists blocked access to engineering talent, then all those jobs go with it.
The nations which most successfully exploit the law of comparative advantage by allowing the most free exchange of goods and labor are the wealthiest nations. Walling yourself off because you believe that hoarding jobs and goods in your own country will make it richer is a certain formula for failure and poverty.
Ceci n'est pas une signature.
I heard yesterday about a senior executive at Oracle who regularly travels internationally to places like China for meetings with suppliers. He manages about 500 people. He's now stuck in the country and unable to do a large part of his job because he happened to be born in Iran. "Make America Great Again" my ass.
Drill baby drill - on Mars
wow, I bought 12 acres for $10k but im not in Cal.
America is for Native Americans
If you're not a Native American, KINDLY GET OUT
doesn't matter if you're smart, honest, well behaved, a perfect employee or even run your own company, GET OUT, THANK YOU. ENJOY YOUR OWN HOMELAND
FTFY
Cancel 5 trips over the next 90 days? For an Australian citizen? Based on a nebulous fear?
Smells fishy to me dude. I'd check your sources on that one.
They want to get an exception for the new $130,000 minimum wage for H1B workers.
U can be sure american youngsters would gladly take the STEM education if the long term ROI for them would be worth it and they wouldn't be under treat to be replaced with foreign slaves. It is just a matter of smart investment.
That's unlikely. Most American youngsters and their parents are interested in the majors that are money makers today. They're not going to look at long-term studies to see if a job will still exist after four years of schooling or 30+ years from now. Too many young Americans stop learning after leaving school, fail to change when the job market changes, and find themselves stuck in life — just like their parents.
Well to be fair, what's the point of having a country at all if it doesn't entitle you to anything? Just somewhere to throw away your taxes in the hope that you'll get drafted for a war you don't wanna fight?
The president doesn't pay taxes.
An immigrant probably pays more taxes, and fights and dies for America.
Cancel 5 trips over the next 90 days? For an Australian citizen? Based on a nebulous fear?
Smells fishy to me dude. I'd check your sources on that one.
Do you mean like this direct quote that I just copied from FB????? The one I paraphrased above???? That one???
Immigration lawyers have said that if I fly overseas I will not be allowed to board a flight back to the US. No one born in Iran (or the 6 other countries listed on the EO) can enter unless they have an American passport or greencard (contentious). 20+ years living in Australia, 5+ years in UK and US, an Aussie passport, a visa to work here.. all irrelevant because of my country of birth. Tomorrow's flight cancelled, 4 other trips over the next 90 days postponed. It's a sad time to be in America.
I am Slashdot. Are you Slashdot as well?
you actually fall for that tripe bullshit!?!?!?!
They've been caught again and again because they're not even good liars. But sure - whatever. Everything you hear/read is true.
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
Green cards are not visas. The two are completely unrelated.
A green card is a non-expiring, permanent resident work permit. It confers a right to permanent residency within the U.S., and provides a path to citizenship.
A visa provides temporary entry into the U.S. for various purposes, including tourism, work, education, etc. You've probably heard of some of the work visas, such as H-1B, H-2B, L-1A, L-1B, R-1, etc. There are also specific types of student visas, such as F-1, J-1, and M-1. Some visas allow you to leave and reenter the country, e.g. F-1 and J-1. Some allow you to work, e.g. H*, L*, R*, and J-1. And some just let you be a tourist, e.g. B-1, B-2, etc.
Allowing green card holders to come back to the U.S. is basically unavoidable. They're legal residents of the United States with homes, families, etc. That's also true for many of the visa types, but those folks are currently screwed, which is nothing short of appalling. And it is particularly heinous for students whose schools have a January term (and who thus took the month of January as an extended vacation) who are now trapped outside the country, unable to return to school, potentially losing scholarships, etc., all because our President doesn't know the difference between a green card, a visa, and refugee status admission.
Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.
So... why aren't they "Americans" by now?
"Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
"Allow proper vetting"? WTF are you smoking? Visas are issued by US consulates, host countries have nothing to do with them.
And if she had a stamp in her passport from Israel, she would be executed upon entry into Iran (actually factually true).
True but irrelevant.
Sorry she comes from a shithole, but the "ban" is Trump's attempt to force those countries to vet the people getting visas so we can tell they are not terrorists coming to kill US citizens.
She already has the Visa. She has been vetted. She is already here.
Once those countries comply and allow proper vetting, they get taken off the list.
Umm .. you do realize that it is the US that is doing the vetting don't you? Do you?
They refuse to comply, the ban will be extended past the original 120 days. As soon as those idiots stop thinking coming to the US to kill us is a good idea, they will be treated better. Until then, I don't really care how long they are banned.
It's the banning the people who are coming here with good intentions that is the issue. But you seem hung up on THE EVIL TERRORISTS THAT LURK IN EVERY SHADOW.
When did it become evil to even TRY to protect US citizens from foreign terrorist? You realize you are arguing to benefit ISIS?
How the fuck is screwing over a person who has been vetted already has a visa protecting the US from terrorists? If anything it plays directly in to the easily radicalized by saying "look at how bad the US treats its friends. The US is obviously evil and doesn't want to give anyone else a fair chance".
I am Slashdot. Are you Slashdot as well?
H1B holders can change employers.
America has a 4% unemployment rate, currently.
Evidently, Americans need education more than jobs.
You haven't been paying attention. Trump says there are 96 million Americans out of work. Repeal child labor and retirement laws to get America working again. Being too young and too old is no longer an excuse not to work.
Man I got screwed. All I got for $40k a few years back was 2.7 acres but that is all upland hardwoods with 210' for shore line on a lake with no public access. Again not in CA.
Joking aside your seems like a reasonable price depending on what is on the land and what is nearby. Mine is a 2 hour drive from the twin cities and is within 10 miles of a major fishing and recreation lake, unfortunately that was managed into the ground recently, so those things help drive up the price as well as the shoreline and the lake not having public access. I have seen other properties as low as $350 and acre but those are usually really in the middle of no where and if they have trees it is usually little shitty aspens with a bunch of lowland brush and a swamp for good measure. When you get to the $1000/acre you start seeing some nice but remote properties that aren't lakefront in Minnesota. This is just one of the many reasons that I tell recruiters who contact me who are out in CA that they can't afford me as I'm not taking a step down in my lifestyle.
Time to offend someone
Aww, she can't leave the country for a few months.
You really can't see past your nose can you. She is working in the US. Cancelling those BUSINESS trips causes financial harm to a US company. That screws over not just her but her fellow employees that ARE US Citizens. You know .. the sort of person you are, but with more common sense.
I am Slashdot. Are you Slashdot as well?
Nine times almost zero is still almost zero. The odds of someone being a terrorist is currently estimated at less than 0.00001%. That's less than one in ten million. So even after multiplying by nine, the odds of an engineer being a terrorist are still only about the same as the chances of that same engineer getting struck by lightning within the next year.
Perspective is a funny thing.
Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.
The fact is, Americans have no choice but to buy things from the American economy. If you are in an industry that decides they only have to pay people according to another country's economy, then all members in that industry are being undermined in regards to their relation to peers to function in the local economy. If everyone was being affected across the board then it wouldn't be such a big deal because costs would be coming down. But this is very specific to technology workers mostly, so we are not only having the job market dropped out from underneath us, but we are also not having our economy reflect costs that balance with our income as we should have in a healthy economy.
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
I live in the US mid-west renting a place is about $1.00 - $1.10/sq ft so that apartment would be about $550-$600/month.
Never mind that the chance an American will be killed by a foreign-born refugee is 1 in 3.64 billion.
http://www.businessinsider.com/what-is-the-risk-of-being-killed-by-a-foreign-terrorist-trump-ban2017-1
How qualified would Eric Trump be if his last name wasn't Trump?
He has terrific qualifications. Everybody agrees, he has fantastic qualifications. So there's no problem with his qualifications, believe me.
Never mind that the chance an American will be killed by a foreign-born refugee is 1 in 3.64 billion.
http://www.businessinsider.com/what-is-the-risk-of-being-killed-by-a-foreign-terrorist-trump-ban2017-1
fuck logic, right?
It is truly astonishing the extent to which this type of uncertainty about your country's own laws has become normalised - and so quickly too. In a stable Democracy, the stability of law is incredibly important. Knowing what you are, and are not, permitted to do - and being able to have enormous confidence that tomorrow the situation will be unchanged - is fundamental. And yet, here is the United States, in which the population is actually in the position of not knowing whether or not a particular person is permitted into their country - despite their being in possession of their "papers".
The whole pantomime has several different aims. Firstly we have Trump separating his supporters from his foes, and dealing with these discovered enemies swiftly. Secondly, the presidential decree itself, which is deliberately over-reached, so that it may be dialled back to the position they really want, and be made to appear reasonable. And of course, thirdly, to create the situation described above. To create uncertainty in the law itself, and thus keep a population fearful of what they might not be allowed to do tomorrow. Controlling a population is much easier if they're never quite sure of what their rights are.
Though the US has a deeply unhealthy relationship with firearms, it might yet pull itself out of this apparent nose-dive into a form of corporate totalitarianism by forming a decent citizens army, and dealing with these people in the only way that they deserve.
Good luck.
Allowing green card holders to come back to the U.S. is basically unavoidable.
Laws are just people doing things that they believe are, well, the laws. Nothing is unavoidable in that sense. All you have to do is change what the people are doing, and those greed card holders can be kept out. This executive order is basically unlawful for a large number of different reasons, but that doesn't matter, because already your laws are becoming fluid.
And if she had a stamp in her passport from Israel, she would be executed upon entry into Iran (actually factually true).
Let's make America great again by being not quite as bad as Iran. Yeah.
USA! USA! USA!
You realize you are arguing to benefit ISIS?
Banning (for example) a British citizen with dual nationality from transiting through the US doesn't harm ISIS in any way. If you think it does then you're stupid.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
I'm a native American - I was born here.
If you're talking about the various tribes mistakenly labeled "Indians" by Colombus, they weren't the first peoples here. Their ancestors displaced the previous people by force. In some places in the US there have been 6 waves (including the European one) IIRC, so you have to go back through several vanished civilizations to find the one who can actually claim "first post".
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
Native Americans fought for the land and lost.
FTFY - Native Americans lived in the Americas long before the British, French, Spanish, Portuguese and Russian empires started dividing up the place.
I'm a native American - I was born here.
I was born here too. But I'm a German/English/Swedish/Irish/French-Canadian-American. But I would never pass myself off as a Native American, as my ancestors came from Europe and migrated westward prior to the American Civil War. I'm actually a minority in the Great State of California, which is fine with me because I grew up in the melting pot called Silicon Valley.
Who modded this up? The AC poster doesn't even seem to understand what a visa is.
Trump's attempt to force those countries to vet the people getting visas
You don't know what you are talking about. It is the US that vets the people and issues the visa, not the other country. And the ban affects people *returning* to the US who live in the US. They don't need to be vetted, they don't need new visas.
As soon as those idiots stop thinking coming to the US to kill us is a good idea
Ummm... that isn't happening.
You realize you are arguing to benefit ISIS?
Again, they don't know what they are talking about. The state department claims this ban is going to increase our risk of terrorism, not decrease it. And ISIS doesn't want to send people to the US. They want Muslims from the US to immigrate to those 7 countries and fight for them.
I guess the informative thing about the post is it shows that the fiction is working. People think ISIS wants to attack the US, they think people from those countries are killing us, and they don't understand how international travel works.
How much do those odds mean to the victims and their families of the WTC, San Bernadino, the Boston Marathon attacks, and others?
Shit happens. You're more likely to die from obesity (30,000 people per year), lightning strikes (10,000 people per year) or from being attacked by a shark (five people per year).
https://www.buzzfeed.com/awesomer/20-things-that-kill-more-people-than-sharks-every
These are people who HAVE visas to work in the United States. You know, vetted and approved already. It would be one thing to stop issuing visas, it's quite another to deny entry to people who already hold a valid visa.
Any pre-Clovis peoples in the Americas were pretty small numbers, whereas there were a helluva lot of descendants of the Clovis peoples in the Americas, and they were witness to a lot more than wars. The treatment of some of these peoples was so awful that even at the time some had misgivings. At any rate, the point is that the Europeans were the late-comers and seized the land by force, just as their descendants seem oddly fearful that a few Syrian refugees are somehow going to manage to do.
As to the Mexicans, well much of what constitutes the southern United States was out and out stolen in an imperialistic war of aggression against Mexico. So if Spanish-speaking peoples are now growing in number, well, sounds like karma to me. It sounds a lot like some Anglo-saxon types are worried that others peoples are just as much a pack of bastards as they have been in the Americas. But really, I see little evidence of any great overthrow of the American system by immigrants, it strikes me that the damage is being done by that narcissistic moron the Electoral College put into the White House.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
fuck logic, right?
Not at all. We just need to put everything perspective. Closing the borders and blaming foreigners isn't going to make America great again.
The America you knew has changed for the racist.
It would be unwise of the current occupants to make the same mistakes they did.
That's an irrational fear spread by white nationalists in the White House.
As long as you like snow in winter and skating on your lake. To me that's an undesirable lifestyle. One of the things that's an order of magnitude better in CA than in Minnesota is the weather. It's one of the other reasons people want to live and work there and that drives the prices up.
In what field are visa holders working 80+ hours a week under thread of deportation? What geographic location? I say that is fiction.
I can't speak for all fields, but if they are in any kind of computer-related field, they should move to the east coast. They will find a job making 60k easily, working 40 hours a week, guaranteed minimum 1-year contract. There's so much demand here it isn't funny. Nobody should put up with 80+ hours a week crud. Heck, why would anybody do that? They could probably do better in their home country.
Only if they get sponsorship from their new employer. Some employers will do it, others won't.
In Cobble Hill, Brooklyn it's $2250/mth
If you're scared of your govt then you need to further restrict its powers
Vote 3rd Party in 2016 and beyond
My point is almost every spot of land in the world was taken by conquest by some previous owners, who took it by conquest etc. Defending against that sort of thing is the first principle of being a nation.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
"chance an American will be killed by a foreign-born refugee is 1 in 3.64 billion."
I realize that the odds are extremely low, but that statement is ridiculous. They can't possibly have the data to make that calculation. In order to determine the odds of an American being killed by a foreign born refugee(1975 -2016), they would need a list of every single refugee that has entered the country since ... say ... 1900 (any refugee that could have been living in 1975). Does that data even exist? Then, they would need to be able to match that list of names with 40 years of crime records to find every single murder committed by every single refugee.
I think the study was focused exclusively on Americans being killed by refugees in "terrorist attacks", i.e. disregarding murder, manslaughter, negligent homicide, etc.
After all, the pittyfull remains of what are now called "native Americans" know all too well what happens when you let in too many immigrants...
Everyone in the US (other than recent immigrants) has ancestors who migrated here at some point in history. Humans didn't evolve here. Everyone who's not a first-gen immigrant is a native American. No special distinction should exist. That's kind of the point of America - we're not our ancestors, we're Americans. Don't create distinctions that only divide us.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
Or how I lost my health insurance and access to my doctor because of Obamacare.
I'm very interested in the exact way in which this happened, would you elaborate for us? You could also explain the first statement too, but I just plain don't understand that one.
I realize that the odds are extremely low, but that statement is ridiculous. They can't possibly have the data to make that calculation. In order to determine the odds of an American being killed by a foreign born refugee(1975 -2016), they would need a list of every single refugee that has entered the country since ... say ... 1900 (any refugee that could have been living in 1975). Does that data even exist? Then, they would need to be able to match that list of names with 40 years of crime records to find every single murder committed by every single refugee.
You obviously haven't read the article. Here's a direct link to the study.
https://www.cato.org/publications/policy-analysis/terrorism-immigration-risk-analysis
This policy analysis examines foreign-born and immigrant terrorists and so excludes American-born terrorists except for purposes of comparison. For attacks planned or carried out by native-born Americans in concert with foreigners, the Americans are excluded and the immigrants are credited entirely for the terrorist plots and murders. That choice increases the estimates of the harm caused by foreign-born terrorists. For plots that included many foreign-born terrorists and victims, each terrorist is credited with an equal number of victims. For instance, the 1993 World Trade Center attack was committed by six foreign-born terrorists; six people were murdered, so each terrorist is responsible for one murder. Airplane hijackings that started in the United States and ended in different countries — such as the September 10, 1976, hijacking of TWA Flight 355 by Croatian nationalists that eventually terminated in Paris, France — are also included. However, this analysis excludes terrorist attacks in which the identities of the perpetrators were unknown, as well as attacks that occurred or were intended to occur (but were not successfully carried out) abroad.
Fair point. I guess we should add american and kyrgyz citizens to the list.
Agreed, but thats not what people are wanting in this case.
Humans didn't evolve here.
That's not correct. Paleo-Americans came across the Bering Strait land bridge ~30,000 years ago in immigration wave that lasted ~10,000 years until the land bridge disappeared. Those people evolved here long before the Europeans showed up with their pot-infested blankets. Native Americans lack of immunity against "Old World" diseases is proof that they evolved separately from the rest of the world.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleo-Indians
Don't create distinctions that only divide us.
Pretending that there are no distinctions between people will only divide us. Not every person wants to be a white male American.
There have been many waves, is the point you seem to be missing. And "pot-infested blankets" are only legal in WA and CO.
Pretending that there are no distinctions between people will only divide us. Not every person wants to be a white male American.
Ah, so you're overtly racist? You believe we should make distinctions between the good races and the bad, I assume? Even so, the idea that creating arbitrary distinctions somehow doesn't divide us is folly.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
The president doesn't pay taxes.
Sure he does, in years when he manages to actually make any money. You have to have a positive income to pay income taxes. Trump business successes are, shall we say, sparse.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
Jodka - you misspeak or misunderstand:
You said, "the most successful companies are those with the best access to resources, not those with the most limited access to resources. Labor is a resouce."
I'd counter:
Best access != cheapest. The most successful companies are those with the best access to resources, not those with the CHEAPEST resources. Labor is a resource. Impacting the valuation of a resource isn't synonymous with the quantity in existence or available of a resource.
12 acres for $10k? Where is that? I think I've seen prices like that in the Mojave desert.......
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
Still, the message is, 'so what train a local'. I sorry you do not get it but this is exactly what happens every single time. Greedy arseholes abuse the system and the rules are changed to end the disruption and a whole bunch of people get caught in the cross fire. It has happened exactly like this in the past and it will happen like it in the future. Greedy arse holes fuck the system up, regulations come in to curtail their excess and the few people who were doing the right thing lose out. Make no mistake right now the system is being abused the crap out of and everyone knows it and it has to stop and that means a bunch of people doing the right will suffer because of many, many, more doing the wrong thing. Don't whine about a few here and a few there suffering when tens of thousands are suffering on the other side. Corporations should train locals they should not demand that others pay for the training and then use them to break the backs of local workers and force them to submit to hugely reduced conditions of employment, it has to stop, sorry but that is it, suck it up.
Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
Sod off, we bloody well don't want them back. If we wanted to be ruled by puritanical nutbags we wouldn't have kicked them out in the first place.
Signed,
England.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
The entire point is that people form these countries have not been properly vetted. these are war tron countries that do not even supply police records for their citizens. Many of these refugees and immigrants are black boxes, with no provable history or documentation. Half of Trumps campaign was about increasing the vetting procedures for countries like these.
Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
Visas, then MS should probably be taking this up with the courts as well - several courts have ruled on keeping various holders out already, if the people in question already have visas then I bet MS could get a court to rule in their favor long enough to get their people into the US.
A thousand pounds of wood moving at 300 feet per minute. Don't get in the way.
Shit happens.
I'd like to see you walk up to those victim's family members and tell them that.
Why would I? Just because I work in IT doesn't mean I'm an asshole outside of work.
You're a sociopathic monster.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." — Benjamin Franklin
AMERICANS NEED JOBS!
Americans need to learn the skills required to provide profitable services to others. Then people will hire them, or they can start their own businesses.
So what you are saying is USA is heading down into the same shithole as Iran where people should be scared of the authorities and now longer can enjoy basic freedoms.
what the fuck do you mean unvetted? The US VETS VISA's, every single visa must be issued and vetted by the US not some foreign country. You are far more likely to be shot by your neighbour then you are by ISIS (that doesn't mean ISIS aren't evil pieces of shit, they are and need to be eradicated), ISIS have far more concerns with simply surviving at this point. What the US needs to be thinking about is what the families of the people they are now alienating and whose lives they are risking will do to them in 20 years time.
I thought the "mountain lion" part was a pet sort of thing.
#DeleteFacebook
I don't understand this; If she has Australian passport, why will she be harassed? She can only be harassed if she travels on an Iranian passport i.e. she is a Iranian citizen.
As much as they have abused guest worker provisions to the detriment of citizens, the only valid response is to deny them an exemption.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
You mean tripe like how the lying MSM continues to call it a "Muslim Ban". And pushes sob stories non-stop about it. Hell my local TV station is running an article about the last refugees for four months arriving an how the wife was set to come next month but is now banned for four months. The only problem, the family arriving is from Afghanistan, a country not on the list. So her delays are in no way related to the EO.
I'm too lazy to compose a creative sig.
If she is an Australian citizen, she applies for a travel visa using that passport. She is fine to travel then.
I'm too lazy to compose a creative sig.
Just because the attackers were incompetent does not lesson the fact that in the last year two Somali refugees conducted two separate attacks resulting in multiple injuries. One in Minnesota resulting in 9 innocent victims stabbed (luckily none died) before the perp was shot and killed by an officer. And the Ohio State Car and knife attack, again luckily none of the victims died and a police officer was able to quickly respond and end the attack.
So nobody died. But terror attacks still happened, and the incompetence of the attacker does not diminish the attempt or the extensive injuries and trauma suffered by their victims.
Or do we have to let American Citizens be killed before we react?
I'm too lazy to compose a creative sig.
Actually re-entry is not even guaranteed for a Citizen. You have the right to travel out of the country. Your rights on attempt to re-enter are greatly reduced. And the Gov can and has banned re-entry by Citizens before trapping thousands outside the country around the world. (the week post 9/11, nobody was flying here, not even citizens.)
I'm too lazy to compose a creative sig.
protesters making a ruckus in airports and inconveniencing people who have nothing to do with it.
There have been many waves, is the point you seem to be missing.
Many waves between ~30,000 to ~20,000 years ago. Then none between ~20,000 years ago and the 15th century, where the various peoples evolved separately from the rest of humanity until the Europeans came with their pox-infected blankets, which may or may not have been made out of hemp fibers.
Ah, so you're overtly racist?
Just because I'm comfortable about race doesn't make me a racist, overt or otherwise. I live and work in a multicultural world. Except for the leasing office staff, I'm the only white person in my apartment complex. Down the street is a Korean church and a Jewish synagogue. On the bus, a half-dozen languages beside English is spoken. My boss is a black woman. My coworkers are American citizens who were born in England, Lebanon, Jamaica and Planet Texas.
You believe we should make distinctions between the good races and the bad, I assume?
I don't assume that being a white, hetrosexual male makes me better than anyone else. As the white executioner says to the black guy being hung on the gallows, "Everyone is equal in my eyes." ;)
Even so, the idea that creating arbitrary distinctions somehow doesn't divide us is folly.
Turning a blind eye to what makes us each unique human beings doesn't unify us either.
Is there a specific reason as to why the citizenship part is important? The reason I ask is that I have seen it several times and I do not see it as an essential part as a European.
My parents and sister have 4 different nationalities and we live in 3 different countries and non in the country that is our nationality.
My sisters kids are not even born in the country of their nationality as they took the nationality of the mother and not the father. (Parents are still happy together) and don't even speak the language of their nationality.
We all pay the same taxes as others in the country we live in. We have the same rights as others have. To become a national of the country I live in now I would have to take a lot of time and a lot of effort for basically replacing my passport and ID.
That is just me. Others will want, for various reason, get the nationality of the country they live in. However I would never assume that somebody who gets official papers to stay in the country is a way to get the nationality (although technically correct).
For those wondering: I do not care about my official nationality. It is a piece of paper, nothing more, nothing less. If you have 4 nationalities inside your direct family, being proud of that becomes a bit silly.
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
Actually I do ice fishing, snowmobiling, and snow showing, my kids like cross country skiing all of which are things one can do up there in the winter. At the end of the road (about 200 meters) is 680 acres of public land open to snowmobiling, ATVs, hunting, and other activities. If I really want to go fast on a snowmobile I can take the snowmobile trail over to the big lake and have about 200 square miles of area to ride on at any speed the machine is capable of reaching.
CA weather is different. It doesn't get as cold but CA does suffer from droughts, mudslides, earthquakes, and fires at a level that is worse than has ever been seen in Minnesota. Add in the very high cost of living (food, housing, and transportation), the California crazies, and the brogrammer cultures and it becomes clear that companies wouldn't pay me enough.
When I say support my current life style I expect to have similar to what I currently have. I own a ~2000 square foot house on a half acre plot that backs up to a 14 acre wooded city park. My home is also in one of the best school districts in the state and my kids will be going to one of the best high school in the state. My commute is at most 40 minutes usually closer to 30. The lake property is 2 hours 15 minutes away and is owned outright. My house has only 10 years left until it will be owned outright. I am also able to save close to half of my after tax income and still afford everything else. No employer in CA who has ever contacted me has made an offer that would even come close to that with most offers being slightly more pay than what I currently make by at most 20%. I also get offers for companies on the east coast and their offers are just laughably bad. The worse one there was for a position similar to what I do now in a higher cost area on the east coast but for 1/3rd of my current pay. I laughed at that person who then asked if that was a good offer, I responded and told them it was fucking awful as I make over 3x that now and don't have to live in the Philadelphia area.
Time to offend someone
What did Obama accomplish before getting elected?
What did he accomplish after getting elected?
Please don't include that speech at the DNC convention as an accomplishment.
Actually, Green Card holders do NOT have to become citizens - they are permanent residents. It's just that many do.
I thought the "mountain lion" part was a pet sort of thing.
Build houses up in the foothills of Silicon Valley, you have to worry about wildlife. That would typically be deers, mountain lions, rattlesnakes and tarantulas. Some areas have wild boars that love to tear up the landscaping. Down in the valley you have to worry about late night visitors like possums, racoons and skunks.
The entire point is that Trump is throwing his weight around to please his base. If he wanted to keep terrorists out, he'd have listed at least one country that's ever sent a terrorist to our shores.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
A citizen has the absolute right to enter his or her country. If all aircraft are grounded, then nobody's flying in, but that's only one mode of entry.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
"throwing his weight around" by allowing some committee put together by Obama to dictate which countries are unsafe and should be vetter better?
Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
Because of basic human decency.
If you don't want someone working in US, that's easy: don't issue them a visa or a green card.
But if you have already done so, at their considerable expense undergoing that process (which is neither lengthy nor cheap, especially for someone from those "extra vetting required" countries), and they already have a job, friends, and quite possibly loved ones in US?
It's legal, sure. But it's wrong as hell.
Let's see. If I leave the US, I can come back. I don't need two years of vetting. I don't need to worry about being deported back to, um, well, where? I have some influence on my country, since I vote, participate in precinct caucuses, and make campaign contributions. I get the use of numerous services that my taxes pay for. I get preference in various employment situations (we do some ITAR stuff here at work, which may only be seen by US persons, for example). There's plenty of advantages to being a US citizen.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
Respectfully, Sir, you have it all wrong. What you are seeing is a strategy designed to throw the left into a howling, immature, tizzy that eventually tires out the supporters and stems the flow of donations. It's working spectacularly, and it's brilliant.
If you want to defeat the left, it's really simple:
Stop the flow of money from the left's money laundering operation: Federal Workers Union, Teachers Union, Workers Union. First thing he did was meet with Union leaders.
Break up the special interest groups that reliably vote left: Blacks, Hispanics, Women, LGBT. More Blacks voted for Trump than have voted for a Republican in a long time, more women voted...
Third, and MOST IMPORTANT screw up the left's biggest weapon: Emotionally charged righteous indignation. This is what gets people to send money. Every opponent of the left is branded a racist, xenophobic, insane, un-educated, country bumpkin, radical, dangerous for America that MUST BE STOPPED send money today... Well, if you create a new righteously indignant moment EVERY DAY and all the protesting, wailing, and howling Accomplishes Nothing, then the money, it will stop flowing.
It's brilliant,
Murphy was an optimist
JFYI, the current employer DOES NOT KNOW that somebody else is applying for H1B transfer for their employee. It's a protected personal information.
H1B transfer is easy - it just involves paying an attorney to file all the paperwork. There's no H1B lottery or anything, and the cost is trivial (around $2000) for a highly-compensated engineering employee. On the other hand, obtaining a new H1B visa is hard.
That would appear to mean that Trump wanted to change vetting and that Obama actually put together the list rather than signed the major appropriations bill it was a rider of.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
This has changed, then. You used to need permission from the old employee, which of course they wouldn't give.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."