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Female Engineer Sues Tesla, Describing a Culture Of 'Pervasive Harassment' (theguardian.com)
A female engineer has spoken out about a discrimination lawsuit against Tesla that she filed last year. AJ Vandermeyden, 33, has accused Tesla of ignoring her claims of "pervasive harassment" and says she has suffered "mental distress" and "humiliation." From a report on The Guardian: Vandermeyden, 33, shared her story with the Guardian at a time when Silicon Valley is reeling from the explosive allegations of former Uber engineer Susan Fowler. Offering a rare public account of discrimination from a tech worker who remains employed at her company, Vandermeyden said her dedication to Tesla motivated her to advocate for fair treatment and reforms -- despite the serious risks she knows she faces for going public. "Until somebody stands up, nothing is going to change," she said in a recent interview, her first comments about a discrimination lawsuit she filed last year. "I'm an advocate of Tesla. I really do believe they are doing great things. That said, I can't turn a blind eye if there's something fundamentally wrong going on." Vandermeyden began at Tesla in 2013 and was eventually promoted to a manufacturing engineering position in the general assembly department, which consisted mostly of men and where she was paid less than male engineers whose work she directly took over, according to her complaint.
I'm not exactly surprised. In most cases where I see the office/design part interface with the shop/implementation part there is the potential for this kind of friction. Even in cases where harrassment is not of a sexual nature, it's common for simple vulgarity to creep in even if just as a reaction to the minor cuts and body wear and tear when working and the need for a certain amount of toughness in order to do the job.
Don't know enough about the salary aspect. She well might be underpaid becase of sexism, or she might have been brought in to do the job because they wanted someone that cost less in that role, and they didn't feel that the role justified the salary they previously paid.
Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
I'm assuming the culture at Tesla is similar to the culture at SpaceX, which is a culture of "fuck you, work 90 hour weeks because you're just here building your resume and I can work you to death if I want to", which is to say any pervasive harassment isn't a female problem, it's a cultural problem that is applied to every peon in the building. If that assumption holds true, the fact that she was paid less isn't because she's a girl, but because the market bears that salary for that position for a girl and Tesla can and will get away with anything it can to further its goals in the most cost effective way possible. Basically, it's the assassin saying "It's not personal, it's just business", which the courts tend to be okay with because it's not special treatment.
Forgive me, but past accusations haven't exactly primed me to believe this. If true, it's absolutely something that should be corrected, and she should be lauded for having the courage to make it public. ...however, if it's sour grapes because she didn't get the promotion she wanted, I wonder if we'll ever hear about it?
Mod me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
"which consisted mostly of men and where she was paid less than male engineers whose work she directly took over" This seems to imply this just because she is a woman, I'm a dude and I've been in this position myself, hell I've even been in a engineering management position and made less than the guys I was in charge of of.
Sure this all could just be because she's a woman, but there is at least a real possibility that there were other reasons contributing to her situation.
Ok, well, first off, this woman is not an "Engineer" in the sense that she holds any academic credentials or certifications (neither am I). The article clearly states she started working at Tesla in 2013, was *promoted* to vehicle assembly. She is an "assembly engineer" in the same way that a guy working on the floor at Ford making IC cars is.
After this, following claims that she was held to unreasonable performance standards and subject to sexual harassment on the shop floor, , she transfered to the "purchasing department", which Tesla was apparently glad to accomodate.
These are simple facts which may or may not be relevant to the case, which appears to me that Tesla hired this woman, and has been happy to allow her to shift roles in the company and build her skillset. Apparently, she just purchased a Model-S. I have worked in IT for 15 years, and I sure can't afford a Model-S. So, anyway, sounds like a pretty damned good job to me.
"No we have no evidence Musk is a rapist. Yes I know he's got a penis, that is not evidence."
In California, possession of a penis without a valid marriage license is prima facie evidence of being a harasser. Given a marriage license, conviction requires in addition the sworn testimony of a SJW.
It is pretty common for people at that level not to understand more than basic comparison. It is very difficult to make ANY comparisons though without making that sort of assumption first. She should have kept the harassment separate from the allegations of unfair pay/advancement. The latter being found inaccurate will make her other claims suspect.
This has led to more than one occurrence where I have about fallen over when a Tesla has passed close to me in the parking lot. Once the car started moving on it's own with little else as visual reference I found my body compensating against the movement. Because there was no sound I assumed the car was stationary and I was not. Glancing away and grabbing another car for balance was the only thing preventing becoming one with the pavement.
~ People that think they are better than anyone else for any reason are the cause of all the strife in the world.
there is a shitton of evidence
Blog posts are not evidence. If you are aware of any actual evidence point it out.
Maw! Fire up the karma burner!
All claims should be met with skepticism. You know, innocent until proven guilty.
~ People that think they are better than anyone else for any reason are the cause of all the strife in the world.
If they're under me, I already made my move!
BAM!
When I was a kid in HS we used to harass other drivers. 2 or 3 of us (separate cars) would pull up next to an old lady at a red light. On cue, we'd all start to reverse slowly, while watching the old lady freakout, thinking her brakes were letting her roll into traffic.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
>Therese Lawless, Vandermeyden’s lawyer,
> who represented former Reddit CEO Ellen Pao in her high-profile discrimination lawsuit against venture capital firm Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers.
Well, we know how that turned out for Ellen.
>Vandermeyden recently took out a hefty loan to buy the cheapest version of the Model S Tesla car and has a reservation for the upcoming Model 3
So after launching a potentially very expensive lawsuit you decide to get a "hefty" loan and buy a Model S? Huh.
>
Women then complain that men don't make the first move anymore.
I don't think women EVER wanted to be cat called and hollered at- and they still don't. Yes, you probably have to use more caution and common sense when asking someone out now-a-days, but this article has absolutely nothing to do with that. She wasn't complaining about being asked out.
"That's the way to do it" - Punch
" where she was paid less than male engineers whose work she directly took over, according to her complaint."
So why accept/keep the job if she's unhappy with the compensation?
-Styopa
Yes, they did. This is just your PC re-education brainwashing talking. When middle-aged Québecoise housewives come back from their cheap all-inclusive trips to Cuba, they all gush about how "real men" hit on them aggressively over there.
Try the same thing in Montreal? "RAPE CULTURE!!!!!!!!!"
There are many people in this world who are in happy relationships precisely from the job.
Making the statement that you are making is pissing on the life happiness that many have gotten, and many will in the future,
which would not happen if they followed the pseudo-intellectual opinions of a few self-absorbed ideologists on the Internet.
Keep that bullshit lesson giving to yourself if you can't look people who actually found happiness in the eyes and tell them that they are wrong,
without looking like an imbecile in the process.
Dismissing a general act for the stupidity of a few, akin to asking for sex to be banned because some people rape or fail at it,
is idiocracy at its finest. People asking to date someone is fine. It's when shit is being forced that it is a problem.
The problem is also that we are being taught to abandon critical thinking when it comes to women. I want to hear both stories, i want to hear the
statements from the onlookers even if it is anonymous, i want to see the cameras, i want to talk to the families of both parties and friends, their histories, and then
i can start making judgments. I want to first KNOW the individuals, before judging what's true and what's bullshit. Something Feminism is rarely doing these days,
as is the media.
Till then, the story here is just an empty husk with lots of assumptions but none of the substance, constructed in a way to create ideological debates but never provide a spotlight on the truth or rational solutions.
Yeah, they just accidently walk around with their tits half hanging out.
Women _want_ to be pursued, but only by the one man they are sending 'fuck me' signals to, not the rest of you nerds. Cat called/hollered? Not usually, but sometimes definitely, especially when young and insecure.
You realize that stick on perky nipples (to be stuck onto the outside of Bras) are a thing?
Have you ever noticed the unique body language of women with nice big tits when frustrated? They stand on tiptoes then let themselves drop down onto their heels, usually with a verbal 'herrup'. To make their boobs jiggle and get what they want from nearby men.
Women will absolutely complain about 'being asked out'. 'Be attractive, don't be unattractive': Is the key to not being charged with sexual harassment.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
OK thats evil but funny. Am I a bad person that I find that funny?
**Life is too short to be serious**
This whole summary is misleading.
From the little information that is provided as proof of her claims, sounds more like a employee upset about not getting promotions and trying to get money out of the well known company.
Note: I am pro union, and think Tesla workers are making a mistake by rejecting UAW. I also disagree with the UAWs tactics in regards to Tesla.
The UAW has been sending workers in to Tesla to incite problems and try to rally workers to unionize. Her claim may be valid, but needs thorough investigation to verify. It is entirely possible she is either a plant, or paid off by the union to make a rallying point.
By all other records Tesla pays exceedingly well, has stellar benefits, and treats workers well. Tons of overtime requirements- but that is normal in the auto industry, and Tesla pays generous overtime rates. The workers are not interested in a union because they don't need one and as such don't want the fees. This may bite them in the ass later, but for now their wishes should be honored by the union.
Technically, that's illegal.
it doesn't matter if it's customary.
And in a lawsuit, illegal actions are ... (wait for it) ... illegal.
News flash: you're no longer in a frat at Stanford.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
she says she has
Does she or doesn't she have them? I can say I have a pet unicorn in my back yard, too.
(It's a double-twist since I have neither a unicorn nor, in fact, a back yard.)
Unity? Screw that: XFCE. Slashdot Beta? Screw that: SoylentNews. Australis? Screw that: Pale Moon. UX developers DIAF
Agreed. Living in California. My wife is French. In her own words "most men here don't seem to have any balls" Its amazing how many guys are afraid to look at and try to interact with women (regardless if they are married or single); so many US men have been conditioned to be soft/nurturing types. And women have become conditioned to believe any male interaction is harassment. However, many women actually like guys who act like men and give women attention. Not talking about the attention from aggressive alpha-males who are macho and groping. Rather, guys who understand and appreciate that women are different than men and rejoice in the feminine side.
Power imbalance.
When one person wields authority over another, there is both a temptation to abuse that power, and a temptation on the part of the underling to acquiesce to "requests" from above to avoid retribution. Even if the boss genuinely has no intention of coercion, the underling can't know that for certain, so it's best to tread *very* carefully around such things, or better yet avoid them altogether.
Because even if there is in fact mutual interest - it's going to be almost impossible to keep your professional and private lives separate. Especially when one relationship ends. How would you like your ex being in a position to fire you and tarnish your professional reputation? Or your lover being required to fire you for unrelated reasons? You're both going to have to possess near-superhuman reserves of levelheadedness and emotional compartmentalization for that not to get ugly fast.
I mean sure, if you meet an underling/boss where things just "click" powerfully, maybe it's worth the risk. But if you're smart, you'll make transferring one of you to break the chain of command a very high priority, because it's quite likely to sour both your personal and professional relationship otherwise.
--- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
Well, I don't know about the amount of evidence adding up to a proverbial shitton, but let's suppose for sake of argument Folwer's accusations are true. It doesn't automatically follow that she'd want to or ought to sue.
On the other hand suppose she is fabricating this story. It doesn't necessarily follow that she'd want to sue either, for obvious reasons.
CONCLUSION: Fowler not suing Uber is not evidence of anything one way or the other, because you can start with either assumption and concoct perfectly plausible explanations for her not wanting to. You have to decide whether you believe her based on other evidence.
Now for the record I find Fowler's accusations credible, because they're consistent (a) with what I've seen in dysfunctional organizations and (b) what I've heard about Uber. That said, that's not really conclusive. But if I were considering employment with Uber, I'd be very, very cautious, even though I'm not a woman. A place that tolerates one kind of mistreatment against one kind of employee isn't a good place to work, even if you're not that kind of employee.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
In Fowler's case I would expect she'd be able to get the testimony of the other women who reported the manger who harassed her. The big problem there was Uber HR saying "well it's his first offense there's nothing we can do" but many women told Fowler they had also reported him.
We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
Please describe this "power imbalance" when a woman can simply say "sexual harassment" with little to no evidence and immediately the "suspect" can lose *his* job?
Who has the power here?
- Ignoring her complaints of “pervasive harassment”.
The article has specifics later: "harassment by men on the factory floor including but not limited to inappropriate language, whistling, and catcalls".
Not nice, but not wholly unexpected either.
This should be wholly unexpected and anyone fighting against this sort of culture should be given the benefit of the doubt. It is a travesty that this is considered "fine" in this day and age and I'll applaud anyone who bucks this trend.
>Try the same thing in Montreal? "RAPE CULTURE!!!!!!!!!"
Let's be clear here - *you* can't try the same thing. You don't have the skill.
Those Cuban fellows have spent their whole lives, from long before puberty, learning how to flirt aggressively and attractively, while picking up the subtle cues that let them know when their attention isn't wanted so they can disengage gracefully and keep the door open for future possibilities. It's a dance to make the Tango look trivial in comparison, and they've been steeping in it their whole lives as a cultural pastime.
Barring phenomenal good luck, any attempt by a socially awkward geek to do the same will probably end about as well as letting a cat fly a fighter jet. Even most "players", skilled by their own countries standards, are going to look like awkward teenagers in comparison. But those players will mostly be good enough to not get called out, because they've learned at least enough nonverbal communication to determine if a woman is open to him flirting with her before he's said two words.
--- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
If you're gonna demand proof all the time
Yep, pretty much. Proof or fuck off. The tyranny you'd inflict without due process is unacceptable. And if you either can't be bothered to capture the necessary proof or the facts are too subtle to detect then I'm not interested in your plight.
if getting by on your looks is NOT how you want to live
Lots of unattractive women that can't rely on their looks are richer than me. They get by just fine.
And for the record, zero evidence surfaced in this thread. Susan Fowler made an evidence free blog post. The rest is Internet sperg. At least Vandermeyden filed suit; her claims will be tested.
....being subtlety, constantly, subconsciously (on both sides!) told by society that your purpose is to be ogled, and then come back and tell me that you are not frustrated with how pervasive and draconian it feels....
Do you know what paradise is? It's when you're forced to invent new problems because all of your actual problems have been solved.
Maw! Fire up the karma burner!
I have been working in the US for several years, and I have noticed this dangerous trend of constantly labeling as misogynist or racist behavior anything that targets a woman or a minority for things that have nothing to do with race or gender. As an outsider (I am from Europe, and worked in Asia), I can say that nowhere I have seen such an obsession with these two topics. If a white person sucks, and get fired, you talk about the actual causes of the firing. If it's a woman or a minority doesn't get hired, or get fired, it's often sexism and racism. I am sure there are real cases of racism and maybe even sexism, but this constant and indiscriminate wolf-crying is going to delegitimize real victims and actually make people hire fewer of these people.
If I were to hire in this country, I'd be damn sure not to hire a woman or a minority which had a background in social justice (even a blog post or some classes in college would be a no go). There is just a chance that the person is some sort of fanatic. It sounds awful, but from what I can tell that equates to having a ticking bomb ready to explode under my ass. I don't care what your race or your ethnicity is, if shit hits the fan bad things may happen, and the last thing I would want is to have a lawsuit for discrimination and a wave of bad publicity for my business. Aww, yes, I am a such an awful person. Well, sorry, and welcome to the real world.
This seems just another case of a women who has had a lifetime of women's privilege deference and accommodation running into the hard truths of equality in a tough work environment. The courts will probably force the feminization of the work environment--women's privilege at work once again. The result, of course, will be the destruction eventually of an aggressively creative and forward pushing company.
E Proelio Veritas.
Women are wonderful effect
from the article:
She is hopeful her lawsuit and public comments wonâ(TM)t end her career at a company she loves.
Would a sane person really think that suing the company they work for won't impact their future with the company?
Overcompensation.
Women have only even been able to vote in the US for just under a century. The pill (another major leap forward in women's autonomy) has been around for half that. We still don't have many women executives, etc. In terms of economic and political power in the US, men still unquestionably have a firm grip on the reigns, and institutional sexism is still a very real thing in most places, with things only slowly changing.
It's going to be at least a few more generations before we really get this "gender equality" thing worked out, and it's going to be ugly in the meantime, with the pendulum swinging back and forth searching for a balance point, and breaking a lot of noses along the way.
--- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
I agree.
Just keep in mind that pretty much every woman out there has faced at least a few, possibly many, shady situations where she has had a legitimate reason to fear the possibility of real harm from a man, and that has skewed her perceptions. (Humans are prey animals, over-generalizing threats is what we do best)
Make sure your attempt is done in consideration of that, and can't be taken as a threat, otherwise you're walking a fine line of with assault charges. And perhaps more importantly to you - shooting yourself in the foot before you even begin.
Also, be a F-ing professional and don't shit where you work. Work relationships are usually a bad idea anyway. If you haven't already established a good rapport with a woman there, and genuinely think that she might be interested in more, then don't complicate both your lives by making unwelcome advances. And if you just can't resist the temptation, and she shoots you down, drop it. Trying to pressure someone into something they don't want is harassment, pure and simple.
And for $deity's sake *definitely* don't get involved with anyone in your chain of command, the potential for abuse and complications are far too high.
--- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
Please describe this "power imbalance" when a woman can simply say "sexual harassment" with little to no evidence and immediately the "suspect" can lose *his* job?
Who has the power here?
Citation needed.
No, it's okay when someone *competent* does it in a way that leaves everyone feeling good about the encounter.
It's not harassment if the target enjoyed themselves both at the time and in reflection. Cuba just seems to have a very high percentage of really competent flirtation experts.
Harassment comes in when you force your attention on someone against their will. Doesn't much matter if it's incompetent flirtation or intentional bullying - the effect on the target is the same.
--- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
Noting that both males and females are harassed is not a defense against sexual harassment; you don't have to be female to be sexually harassed. Plus we expect (and require by law) that workplaces be free of harassment *in general*, not just in the case of sexual harassment, so if your factory floor harasses people of any gender for any reason it's another problem, not an excuse.
It's *not* unreasonable for people to expect to go to work and not be harassed. It's the law. Attitudes like the one you express here are not only anti-social, they're actionable, and the only "snowflakes" in the process are the ones you can't control themselves well enough to act civilly for the few hours a day they are at work.
Who has the power here?
No no. Sexual harassment is a very specific kind of action and although it seems like the accuser has all the say about this, in most places I've worked there where clearly defined parameters necessary to establish that harassment actually took place. In order for it to be harassment it must be unwanted behavior that is either obviously harassing or behavior that continues AFTER it was communicated it was unwelcome.
Asking a peer out on a date, once, is not harassment. Continuing to ask after being told to stop asking IS harassment. Giving complements on appearance or dress is not harassment, unless it's communicated that it's unwelcome. Telling off color jokes *might* be harassment if the joke is obviously inappropriate for the office, continuing to do so after somebody asks you to stop IS a problem.
The biggest issue most folks have understanding this is with manager subordinate relationships. This is where things get dicey at times because the subordinate may not feel free to object. The smart manager stays clear of such entanglements and complications by making it a policy NOT to fraternize with the lower ranks. It is here where most of the serious mistakes and career ending events happen. Don't be stupid and don't give a chance for any false accusations to gain root by always having your guard up. Have "private" meetings in public places, offices with windows or don't close your door, make sure your office has windows and if you have an admin that they can observe what's happening in your office. DON'T socialize ALONE with your subordinate, but always make sure there is a group or other parties there. Also, if you catch wind of ANY inappropriate possibly harassing behavior among your subordinates, dig out the HR mandated training because it didn't take the first time and DEAL with the behavior BEFORE it gets out of hand. Project professional behavior and expect the same.
It's not hard, just don't be stupid, keep it professional and if you are the boss, keep witnesses around when dealing with subordinates.
If you do these things: 1. Keep things professional, 2. Stop any behavior when asked, 3. keep your interactions with subordinates appropriate and in public view, you won't have an issue when HR receives a complaint. If you DO have an issue and you where not caught being stupid, then you need to bail anyway because HR is messed up where you work.
"File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
>It should not be any easier ruin a man's reputation (and life) with sexual assault accusations, than it is to do the same with any other suspicions of criminality.
I *absolutely* agree.
But you have to also accept the fact that we live in a country where monsters like that Stanford rapist walk away scot-free even when caught in the act, and that rape is normally an incredibly tricky thing to prove. Barring actually being caught in the act, it will always be a he-said she-said charge.
It's an ugly situation all around.
We have a problem with two kinds of monsters
Women who unjustly ruin men's lives with false accusations
And men who unjustly ruin women's lives with rape
We need to rid ourselves of both of them, and I don't see any easy answers. I think though, that the false accusations shall prove a far more tractable problem - if by nothing else than the growing ubiquity of video recorders. For rape though - we've got a very old cultural demon to face. There's an awful lot of folks like that monster's father, who just don't see why a boy's life should be ruined over "a few minutes fun".
--- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
It depends on the environment. In a place with very few women the likelihood of ugly women getting hit on rises exponentially. Everything is relative. Beauty is after all, in the eye of the beholder. Typically there are always going to be some creepy bosses that think for some reason they have a right to expect favors from women that work for them. These guys should be removed for the good of everyone including the company. I really do not understand why a company is willing to expose themselves to the expense of litigation and the humiliation of being publicly outed as a misogynistic organization. All to allow some perv to grope and harass his employees.
There's one of those playing out in the courts in Australia at the moment between the head of a broadcasting company and his former lover - be honest this time, who do you REALLY think lost their job. Like just about all of these cases in reality the person who started with the most power is the one who get to keep their job while the woman is painted as a whore. Sucks, and is that really what you'd want your daughter to go through? It's not about feminism in any way it's about people being treated unfairly.
And thus the posturing and dick-waving continues, on and on ad nauseam.
Can I invite everybody to take a step back from the namecalling and the petty squabbling over insignificant details? I think, if we look at it calmly, we will probably find that there is definitely a certain culture of bias against women in science and technology; this is not surprising - it was not all that long ago, when women were expected to stay at home and do "female things", and the men were supposed to go to work and make all the money a family needed. I remember feeling vaguely ashamed that my mother had to have a job; and there is still a lot of than hanging over in the background - I think it is clearly visible.
But that's not to say that there aren't any women who hide behind complaints about misogyny, when it is actually just that they don't quite have what it takes - of course there are some. But given the historical background, I think we should always be willing to consider the possibility that the complaints are based on reality. After all, there are far fewer women in certain jobs than there ought to be, when you take into account the number of women with the skills and the talents that are available - which means that there is a lot of talentes that are wasted, in a time when we hear about skills shortages; that doesn't make sense, I think.
The other point I want to make is that we, as males and engineers, should make the effort to take a look at ourselves. Most of us were the nerdy kid at school and were not part of the wider, social context that should have taught us the skills and mindset that go with relating well to the other sex, among other things, and we have taken it with us into adult life. Thus there is an above average risk that we don't have all the tools to judge whether complaints about misogyny are real or not - that should inspire a bit of humility in us, so we don't just sweep them off the table. Personally, as a nerd, there are things that I am absolutely brilliant at, but if I have to make smalltalk to a sales person, for example, I absolutely stink; I just don't have the skill. This is my failing, it isn't because the man or woman I talk to is an idiot. But, being a skill, it is something that can be learned - and mindsets are changeable too.
If I were a manager in my company, and hit on a woman working for me on her first day, I'd expect to be in deep trouble. There are three things that may constitute sexual harassment, and making employment decisions contingent on sexual favors is one of them. Hitting on a subordinate is likely enough to trigger that, even if there is no explicit threat or promise. A manager who harasses an employee is a liability for their employer, and propositioning a new employee seems like a reasonable firing offense to me.
In the case you're talking about, the woman went to HR, which is a reasonable response. HR said she should expect retaliation, and lied to her by claiming it was a first offense. That's also probably illegal.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes