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Female Engineer Sues Tesla, Describing a Culture Of 'Pervasive Harassment' (theguardian.com)
A female engineer has spoken out about a discrimination lawsuit against Tesla that she filed last year. AJ Vandermeyden, 33, has accused Tesla of ignoring her claims of "pervasive harassment" and says she has suffered "mental distress" and "humiliation." From a report on The Guardian: Vandermeyden, 33, shared her story with the Guardian at a time when Silicon Valley is reeling from the explosive allegations of former Uber engineer Susan Fowler. Offering a rare public account of discrimination from a tech worker who remains employed at her company, Vandermeyden said her dedication to Tesla motivated her to advocate for fair treatment and reforms -- despite the serious risks she knows she faces for going public. "Until somebody stands up, nothing is going to change," she said in a recent interview, her first comments about a discrimination lawsuit she filed last year. "I'm an advocate of Tesla. I really do believe they are doing great things. That said, I can't turn a blind eye if there's something fundamentally wrong going on." Vandermeyden began at Tesla in 2013 and was eventually promoted to a manufacturing engineering position in the general assembly department, which consisted mostly of men and where she was paid less than male engineers whose work she directly took over, according to her complaint.
Why isn't Susan Fowler suing Uber? Much like with this incident at Tesla (ex-SpaceX employee here btw, and this comes as no surprise), there is a shitton of evidence, and nothing being done about it. I can't wait for this fucking bro bubble to burst.
I'm not exactly surprised. In most cases where I see the office/design part interface with the shop/implementation part there is the potential for this kind of friction. Even in cases where harrassment is not of a sexual nature, it's common for simple vulgarity to creep in even if just as a reaction to the minor cuts and body wear and tear when working and the need for a certain amount of toughness in order to do the job.
Don't know enough about the salary aspect. She well might be underpaid becase of sexism, or she might have been brought in to do the job because they wanted someone that cost less in that role, and they didn't feel that the role justified the salary they previously paid.
Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
I'm assuming the culture at Tesla is similar to the culture at SpaceX, which is a culture of "fuck you, work 90 hour weeks because you're just here building your resume and I can work you to death if I want to", which is to say any pervasive harassment isn't a female problem, it's a cultural problem that is applied to every peon in the building. If that assumption holds true, the fact that she was paid less isn't because she's a girl, but because the market bears that salary for that position for a girl and Tesla can and will get away with anything it can to further its goals in the most cost effective way possible. Basically, it's the assassin saying "It's not personal, it's just business", which the courts tend to be okay with because it's not special treatment.
Forgive me, but past accusations haven't exactly primed me to believe this. If true, it's absolutely something that should be corrected, and she should be lauded for having the courage to make it public. ...however, if it's sour grapes because she didn't get the promotion she wanted, I wonder if we'll ever hear about it?
Mod me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
"which consisted mostly of men and where she was paid less than male engineers whose work she directly took over" This seems to imply this just because she is a woman, I'm a dude and I've been in this position myself, hell I've even been in a engineering management position and made less than the guys I was in charge of of.
Sure this all could just be because she's a woman, but there is at least a real possibility that there were other reasons contributing to her situation.
1) Why does everyone keep calling her Susan Fowler? She's married now, it's Susan Rigetti - but I guess they don't want people looking up that name and associating this whole incident with her husband's "computer company"
2) This is not the first time she's made headlines with attention-grabbing claims. A few months ago there was a story about her making the rounds on how she'd moved from studying math at a 6th-grade level to doing graduate-level quantum mechanics in just 18 months. I don't want to cast doubt on her current claims, but this previous story is highly incredible, to say the least.
Tesla cows don't make any moo. they are completely silent, you only hear their hooves.
I hate when people complain that they are doing the same job and getting paid less without mentioning how much experience they have. If they have less experience in that position, then they should fully expect to get paid less. It's not about being 'qualified', it simply comes down to experience.
However, with all the bitching and moaning that they do, I'm not surprised that some employers wouldn't want to promote their whining asses.
Waaaaa, but I came up with "a" solution and they didn't make me head of the company, waaaaa.
Making the first move is fine, but you don't do it on the job nor do you make moves on people under you.
Ok, well, first off, this woman is not an "Engineer" in the sense that she holds any academic credentials or certifications (neither am I). The article clearly states she started working at Tesla in 2013, was *promoted* to vehicle assembly. She is an "assembly engineer" in the same way that a guy working on the floor at Ford making IC cars is.
After this, following claims that she was held to unreasonable performance standards and subject to sexual harassment on the shop floor, , she transfered to the "purchasing department", which Tesla was apparently glad to accomodate.
These are simple facts which may or may not be relevant to the case, which appears to me that Tesla hired this woman, and has been happy to allow her to shift roles in the company and build her skillset. Apparently, she just purchased a Model-S. I have worked in IT for 15 years, and I sure can't afford a Model-S. So, anyway, sounds like a pretty damned good job to me.
"No we have no evidence Musk is a rapist. Yes I know he's got a penis, that is not evidence."
In California, possession of a penis without a valid marriage license is prima facie evidence of being a harasser. Given a marriage license, conviction requires in addition the sworn testimony of a SJW.
This has led to more than one occurrence where I have about fallen over when a Tesla has passed close to me in the parking lot. Once the car started moving on it's own with little else as visual reference I found my body compensating against the movement. Because there was no sound I assumed the car was stationary and I was not. Glancing away and grabbing another car for balance was the only thing preventing becoming one with the pavement.
~ People that think they are better than anyone else for any reason are the cause of all the strife in the world.
Delorean all over again. For Musk and Uber.
~ People that think they are better than anyone else for any reason are the cause of all the strife in the world.
Having personally experienced women using "feminism" to get what they want in the most blatant way, and getting it, I will prejudge, especially in a high profile case like this.
If they're under me, I already made my move!
BAM!
When I was a kid in HS we used to harass other drivers. 2 or 3 of us (separate cars) would pull up next to an old lady at a red light. On cue, we'd all start to reverse slowly, while watching the old lady freakout, thinking her brakes were letting her roll into traffic.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Why not? If you're adults it shouldn't matter.
Omg you're an inspiration!
I wish I had thought of this when I was younger. :)
~ People that think they are better than anyone else for any reason are the cause of all the strife in the world.
>Therese Lawless, Vandermeyden’s lawyer,
> who represented former Reddit CEO Ellen Pao in her high-profile discrimination lawsuit against venture capital firm Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers.
Well, we know how that turned out for Ellen.
>Vandermeyden recently took out a hefty loan to buy the cheapest version of the Model S Tesla car and has a reservation for the upcoming Model 3
So after launching a potentially very expensive lawsuit you decide to get a "hefty" loan and buy a Model S? Huh.
>
Women then complain that men don't make the first move anymore.
I don't think women EVER wanted to be cat called and hollered at- and they still don't. Yes, you probably have to use more caution and common sense when asking someone out now-a-days, but this article has absolutely nothing to do with that. She wasn't complaining about being asked out.
"That's the way to do it" - Punch
oh shit.. too late.
No we don't know she's an SJW trying to Kafkatrap Tesla.
No we have no evidence Musk is a rapist. Yes I know he's got a penis, that is not evidence.
How do you know he has a penis?
Sounds like an assumption rather than something you know.
"That's the way to do it" - Punch
" where she was paid less than male engineers whose work she directly took over, according to her complaint."
So why accept/keep the job if she's unhappy with the compensation?
-Styopa
Yes, they did. This is just your PC re-education brainwashing talking. When middle-aged Québecoise housewives come back from their cheap all-inclusive trips to Cuba, they all gush about how "real men" hit on them aggressively over there.
Try the same thing in Montreal? "RAPE CULTURE!!!!!!!!!"
There are many people in this world who are in happy relationships precisely from the job.
Making the statement that you are making is pissing on the life happiness that many have gotten, and many will in the future,
which would not happen if they followed the pseudo-intellectual opinions of a few self-absorbed ideologists on the Internet.
Keep that bullshit lesson giving to yourself if you can't look people who actually found happiness in the eyes and tell them that they are wrong,
without looking like an imbecile in the process.
Dismissing a general act for the stupidity of a few, akin to asking for sex to be banned because some people rape or fail at it,
is idiocracy at its finest. People asking to date someone is fine. It's when shit is being forced that it is a problem.
The problem is also that we are being taught to abandon critical thinking when it comes to women. I want to hear both stories, i want to hear the
statements from the onlookers even if it is anonymous, i want to see the cameras, i want to talk to the families of both parties and friends, their histories, and then
i can start making judgments. I want to first KNOW the individuals, before judging what's true and what's bullshit. Something Feminism is rarely doing these days,
as is the media.
Till then, the story here is just an empty husk with lots of assumptions but none of the substance, constructed in a way to create ideological debates but never provide a spotlight on the truth or rational solutions.
Yeah, they just accidently walk around with their tits half hanging out.
Women _want_ to be pursued, but only by the one man they are sending 'fuck me' signals to, not the rest of you nerds. Cat called/hollered? Not usually, but sometimes definitely, especially when young and insecure.
You realize that stick on perky nipples (to be stuck onto the outside of Bras) are a thing?
Have you ever noticed the unique body language of women with nice big tits when frustrated? They stand on tiptoes then let themselves drop down onto their heels, usually with a verbal 'herrup'. To make their boobs jiggle and get what they want from nearby men.
Women will absolutely complain about 'being asked out'. 'Be attractive, don't be unattractive': Is the key to not being charged with sexual harassment.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
If you believe you have been harassed then first go find a judge and pursuit your case in civil/criminal court.
When there is an actual finding feel free to report that in a news article. Don't go to the public with an unsubstantiated one sided story not one member of the public is in any position to properly evaluate in order to push emotional buttons and exert PR pressure.
God knows most of us have dealt with people who just make shit up for personal gain or who expend more mental energy screwing over coworkers than they do actually working.
The media's standards for publishing stories has to be higher than one half's account of their divorce.
OK thats evil but funny. Am I a bad person that I find that funny?
**Life is too short to be serious**
If she can afford a Model S while working on the Assembly line I don't think she is underpaid. I have 15 years working in IT and a Masters from a top 10 University and I cant afford a Model S. (Unless she thinks the harassment suit is her big payday and she has already started spending the settlement money)
The catcalls is an issue Women have faced ever since they came on the factory floor. In this day and age it should not happen. However the responsibility for that is on the mothers of the guys doing the catcalls who did not teach their sons to respect women. The company's job is to build cars not fix society's problems.
**Life is too short to be serious**
Musk could hire an insultant to perform an inspection and certify that the proper equipment is both installed and functioning properly.
I'll see your senator, and I'll raise you two judges.
This whole summary is misleading.
From the little information that is provided as proof of her claims, sounds more like a employee upset about not getting promotions and trying to get money out of the well known company.
Note: I am pro union, and think Tesla workers are making a mistake by rejecting UAW. I also disagree with the UAWs tactics in regards to Tesla.
The UAW has been sending workers in to Tesla to incite problems and try to rally workers to unionize. Her claim may be valid, but needs thorough investigation to verify. It is entirely possible she is either a plant, or paid off by the union to make a rallying point.
By all other records Tesla pays exceedingly well, has stellar benefits, and treats workers well. Tons of overtime requirements- but that is normal in the auto industry, and Tesla pays generous overtime rates. The workers are not interested in a union because they don't need one and as such don't want the fees. This may bite them in the ass later, but for now their wishes should be honored by the union.
Tesla cows don't make any moo. they are completely silent, you only hear their hooves.
added bonus, their farts are released in another location...
OK, so it's only a bonus if you don't live in said location...
You have the right to remain sentient. If you give up the right to remain sentient, you will be elected to public office
Technically, that's illegal.
it doesn't matter if it's customary.
And in a lawsuit, illegal actions are ... (wait for it) ... illegal.
News flash: you're no longer in a frat at Stanford.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
Four things, let's see
- Ignoring her complaints of “pervasive harassment”.
The article has specifics later: "harassment by men on the factory floor including but not limited to inappropriate language, whistling, and catcalls".
Not nice, but not wholly unexpected either. It's a factory floor, and all of her earlier positions were office jobs. The factory floor is not a place for special snowflakes - male or female.
- Paying her a lower salary than men doing the same work.
Not all people with the same job earn the same. Salary depends on various factors. It may depend on how good they are at the job. It may depend on whether they ask for a raise. It may depend on other factors, for example, on whether one is *actually* an engineer. She transferred in from sales and out to purchasing.. Her education isn't public, but with that work history, there is zero chance that she holds an engineering degree.
- Promoting less qualified men over her
Um, "qualified"? She lack an education to hold the position of Manufacturing Engineer, although Tesla normally demands that for their manufacturing engineers. She certainly has none of the work experience you would expect. Even then, a promotion depends on how well you do your job, how well you get along with your co-workers, and - most importantly - how well suited you are for the new responsibilities that the promotion would entail.
- Retaliating against her for raising concerns.
The bit of research above tends to point to Tesla trying too hard: they took a non-engineer and put her into a technical position that she was unqualified for. She failed, was moved to purchasing, and is now insulted. At least, that's sure what it looks like based on public information.
Enjoy life! This is not a dress rehearsal.
"Tech workers . . . have a natural understanding about women"
Hahahaaa zing! Wait a minute...were you serious with that? But...wow.
Sexual harassment isn't a crime, it simply creates a civil cause of action.
Employment negotiation is a complex dynamic.
My first and only blue chip job, I was fairly junior just a few years into career yet I firmly established as able to deliver and innovate and provide tech that opened up alot of new rev for them, but always been rubbish at asserting and negotiation. Some freshly minted grads came in, barely could compile a hello world, and I found out they started on 20% more than me. Was so angry about it and acted out of character driven by the emotion of indignation. Kicked up about it, threatened to quit, quit and then shortly later sub contracted back to them at a ruthlessly high rate and tripled my income : arrangement didn't last long but I got my pound of flesh. That and other experiences since, when I eventually moved into management roles, hiring and managing staff etc, have helped me realise it is complex. You can't just tell someone find another job or be more assertive or whatever, it's not easy flicking a switch and becoming a different person: pretending to be an alpha when you are far from that. Fears and insecurities that come into play the power dynamic is heavily against the employee.
Agreed. Living in California. My wife is French. In her own words "most men here don't seem to have any balls" Its amazing how many guys are afraid to look at and try to interact with women (regardless if they are married or single); so many US men have been conditioned to be soft/nurturing types. And women have become conditioned to believe any male interaction is harassment. However, many women actually like guys who act like men and give women attention. Not talking about the attention from aggressive alpha-males who are macho and groping. Rather, guys who understand and appreciate that women are different than men and rejoice in the feminine side.
Power imbalance.
When one person wields authority over another, there is both a temptation to abuse that power, and a temptation on the part of the underling to acquiesce to "requests" from above to avoid retribution. Even if the boss genuinely has no intention of coercion, the underling can't know that for certain, so it's best to tread *very* carefully around such things, or better yet avoid them altogether.
Because even if there is in fact mutual interest - it's going to be almost impossible to keep your professional and private lives separate. Especially when one relationship ends. How would you like your ex being in a position to fire you and tarnish your professional reputation? Or your lover being required to fire you for unrelated reasons? You're both going to have to possess near-superhuman reserves of levelheadedness and emotional compartmentalization for that not to get ugly fast.
I mean sure, if you meet an underling/boss where things just "click" powerfully, maybe it's worth the risk. But if you're smart, you'll make transferring one of you to break the chain of command a very high priority, because it's quite likely to sour both your personal and professional relationship otherwise.
--- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
Everyone with Tesla stock should take their money out of the company immediately. Apparently there's a discount on work for hiring females, yet Tesla still hires men. Tesla won't last long once other companies learn of this competitive advantage!!!
another woman complaining about a bad company at which she's chosen to remain. Yes, HR will always protect the company, that's why the company pays for an HR department. If you don't like what's going on, and if you don't like how you're treated, and if you don't like the amount that you're being paid, then you get to do the one thing that every man gets to do -- you get to threaten to quit. That's called negotiating to get what you want. And most of the time, you get to leave. That's exactly what it takes to get what you want.
You don't get to complain, in this case, three years later!
My company isn't like that. My industry isn't like that. Yet, you've stayed in a company that has mistreated you from the start.
Start your own company. That's what I did when I wasn't happy.
In the words of the famous de-motivational poster:
Dysfunction: the only consistent feature of all your dissatisfying relationships is you.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
Most people buy exactly as much house as they can afford (morons that they are).
Closing price is public information. For first homes, you can more or less back calculate the family income from house price. Have to know if they are veterans and a few other things, but it's pretty direct.
It is useful information for extorting more money from the big cheeses. For example: If you know you are making less money than the moron who's mistakes you are always fixing, you know they can afford to increase your pay a lot. If you know everybody at the place is paid for shit, you know it's time to move.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Please describe this "power imbalance" when a woman can simply say "sexual harassment" with little to no evidence and immediately the "suspect" can lose *his* job?
Who has the power here?
I'm OK with this sort of preliminary news. First, I'll assume that the well informed reader can differentiate between a lawsuit being filed and a verdict being handed down. So they will take this story with a grain of salt. Second, and much more important; this is material information that could affect the bottom line of the company. It's public information that, absent a news story, would go unnoticed by the average investor not having access to the kinds of research firms and pricey newsletters that the big shots use to get the jump on the small fry. And finally, this news gives me a heads up to watch for a verdict or other outcome. The suit may be dismissed as groundless, but very often an out of court settlement will be made, with the terms kept private. We may never hear any more about this and, in my opinion, that could be the most important information I could find about a prospective investment or employer.
Companies that settle out of court and in secret often do not add their reputation's value of being acquitted to the calculation of a settlement. There is more than the avoided court costs to be considered when negotiating a settlement. It is worth something to be found not guilty. So when I see a lawsuit 'disappear' off the public's radar, I suspect that there may be some guilt. And I've been on the inside of a company that cut a huge settlement that, had the investment community been aware of the circumstances, many people may have made more informed decisions with their life savings before the outfit finally went under.
Have gnu, will travel.
And an entire company like Uber coming under fire for it.
It's messed up man.
~ People that think they are better than anyone else for any reason are the cause of all the strife in the world.
>Try the same thing in Montreal? "RAPE CULTURE!!!!!!!!!"
Let's be clear here - *you* can't try the same thing. You don't have the skill.
Those Cuban fellows have spent their whole lives, from long before puberty, learning how to flirt aggressively and attractively, while picking up the subtle cues that let them know when their attention isn't wanted so they can disengage gracefully and keep the door open for future possibilities. It's a dance to make the Tango look trivial in comparison, and they've been steeping in it their whole lives as a cultural pastime.
Barring phenomenal good luck, any attempt by a socially awkward geek to do the same will probably end about as well as letting a cat fly a fighter jet. Even most "players", skilled by their own countries standards, are going to look like awkward teenagers in comparison. But those players will mostly be good enough to not get called out, because they've learned at least enough nonverbal communication to determine if a woman is open to him flirting with her before he's said two words.
--- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
Women _want_ to ...
Next up ... you complaining loudly about stereotyping when someone starts a post with 'Men want to ...'
"When middle-aged Québecoise housewives come back from their cheap all-inclusive trips to Cuba, they all gush about how "real men" hit on them aggressively over there"
Women have explained to me it's obvious that these "real men" are simply looking for a way into Canada.
I have been working in the US for several years, and I have noticed this dangerous trend of constantly labeling as misogynist or racist behavior anything that targets a woman or a minority for things that have nothing to do with race or gender. As an outsider (I am from Europe, and worked in Asia), I can say that nowhere I have seen such an obsession with these two topics. If a white person sucks, and get fired, you talk about the actual causes of the firing. If it's a woman or a minority doesn't get hired, or get fired, it's often sexism and racism. I am sure there are real cases of racism and maybe even sexism, but this constant and indiscriminate wolf-crying is going to delegitimize real victims and actually make people hire fewer of these people.
If I were to hire in this country, I'd be damn sure not to hire a woman or a minority which had a background in social justice (even a blog post or some classes in college would be a no go). There is just a chance that the person is some sort of fanatic. It sounds awful, but from what I can tell that equates to having a ticking bomb ready to explode under my ass. I don't care what your race or your ethnicity is, if shit hits the fan bad things may happen, and the last thing I would want is to have a lawsuit for discrimination and a wave of bad publicity for my business. Aww, yes, I am a such an awful person. Well, sorry, and welcome to the real world.
This seems just another case of a women who has had a lifetime of women's privilege deference and accommodation running into the hard truths of equality in a tough work environment. The courts will probably force the feminization of the work environment--women's privilege at work once again. The result, of course, will be the destruction eventually of an aggressively creative and forward pushing company.
E Proelio Veritas.
"However, many women actually like guys who act like men and give women attention. Not talking about the attention from aggressive alpha-males who are macho and groping. Rather, guys who understand and appreciate that women are different than men and rejoice in the feminine side"
Kind of but I'd be less categorical in general. The feminine side can also include being clearer about your interest in a specific individual and in each step along the way of a burgeoning relationship.
Whether the rest of us are able to do it as well as those phenomenal Cubans or not, it can not be illegal (nor even immoral) for us to try.
Which, I believe, was the Anonymous OP's point.
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
Women are wonderful effect
Media kept running headlines like, "Trump Says He Was a Pussy Grabber!!!" and women in the Hearltand responded, "Yes? And...?" There is a huge cultural divide here in this country, same as between Montreal and Quebec, but the media has been willfully ignorant about it until very recently.
from the article:
She is hopeful her lawsuit and public comments wonâ(TM)t end her career at a company she loves.
Would a sane person really think that suing the company they work for won't impact their future with the company?
So it's okay when a Cuban does it?
We've gone from sexism to racism here.
It occurs to me that one of the most important "tricks" should be made explicit:
They're not flirting to get laid - they're flirting to make her feel good. Maybe they get laid as a result, probably not, that's a numbers game. The point though is that she left feeling good. Leave her feeling good about your encounter and she's not going to scream "rape culture". Maybe she'll even come back for more, and/or talk to her friends about you and they might come to see what was worth talking about.
--- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
Good one. I didn't know about it.
Overcompensation.
Women have only even been able to vote in the US for just under a century. The pill (another major leap forward in women's autonomy) has been around for half that. We still don't have many women executives, etc. In terms of economic and political power in the US, men still unquestionably have a firm grip on the reigns, and institutional sexism is still a very real thing in most places, with things only slowly changing.
It's going to be at least a few more generations before we really get this "gender equality" thing worked out, and it's going to be ugly in the meantime, with the pendulum swinging back and forth searching for a balance point, and breaking a lot of noses along the way.
--- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
this is a bullshit claim.. it reeks of it. She just couldn't handle her job.
In these discussions on Slashdot, I feel like people manage to dance around the fact that sexual harassment only encompasses unwanted sexual advances, and are offended by the concept that women get to decide which sexual advances are wanted or not.
I agree.
Just keep in mind that pretty much every woman out there has faced at least a few, possibly many, shady situations where she has had a legitimate reason to fear the possibility of real harm from a man, and that has skewed her perceptions. (Humans are prey animals, over-generalizing threats is what we do best)
Make sure your attempt is done in consideration of that, and can't be taken as a threat, otherwise you're walking a fine line of with assault charges. And perhaps more importantly to you - shooting yourself in the foot before you even begin.
Also, be a F-ing professional and don't shit where you work. Work relationships are usually a bad idea anyway. If you haven't already established a good rapport with a woman there, and genuinely think that she might be interested in more, then don't complicate both your lives by making unwelcome advances. And if you just can't resist the temptation, and she shoots you down, drop it. Trying to pressure someone into something they don't want is harassment, pure and simple.
And for $deity's sake *definitely* don't get involved with anyone in your chain of command, the potential for abuse and complications are far too high.
--- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
Please describe this "power imbalance" when a woman can simply say "sexual harassment" with little to no evidence and immediately the "suspect" can lose *his* job?
Who has the power here?
Citation needed.
No, it's okay when someone *competent* does it in a way that leaves everyone feeling good about the encounter.
It's not harassment if the target enjoyed themselves both at the time and in reflection. Cuba just seems to have a very high percentage of really competent flirtation experts.
Harassment comes in when you force your attention on someone against their will. Doesn't much matter if it's incompetent flirtation or intentional bullying - the effect on the target is the same.
--- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
Sure, sure. But all of this caution should not be necessary — unless you are really threatening. It should not be any easier ruin a man's reputation (and life) with sexual assault accusations, than it is to do the same with any other suspicions of criminality.
Let's not apply the conversation to the present company, shall we? I'm a happy father — of more than one child...
Another strange prohibition. While I agree, that one should not attempt to court anyone below them in a corporate hierarchy (the rule which automatically bans courtship up the same ladder), approaching a colleague may be Ok.
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
Try not posting as AC.
What? her being the only female in a meeting room with 50 guys is illegal? Please cite references.
Women were voting in the US before the 19th amendment. And that amendment imposes no requirements for them to have that privilege. Nothing stops women from becoming executives except their lack of desire to do so. How do you define economic power? If it's purchasing power, that's far overwhelmingly women. And if you want to talk about institutional sexism, get rid of Title IX and its kangaroo court that just assumes men are just automatically rapists.
Seems being indian is common on both sides of these problems.
You may want to have a neurologist check your proprioception. What you report makes it seem like you are unusually susceptible to loss of body awareness.
When the only tool you have is a claw hammer every problem starts to look like the back of someone's skull.
Who has the power here?
No no. Sexual harassment is a very specific kind of action and although it seems like the accuser has all the say about this, in most places I've worked there where clearly defined parameters necessary to establish that harassment actually took place. In order for it to be harassment it must be unwanted behavior that is either obviously harassing or behavior that continues AFTER it was communicated it was unwelcome.
Asking a peer out on a date, once, is not harassment. Continuing to ask after being told to stop asking IS harassment. Giving complements on appearance or dress is not harassment, unless it's communicated that it's unwelcome. Telling off color jokes *might* be harassment if the joke is obviously inappropriate for the office, continuing to do so after somebody asks you to stop IS a problem.
The biggest issue most folks have understanding this is with manager subordinate relationships. This is where things get dicey at times because the subordinate may not feel free to object. The smart manager stays clear of such entanglements and complications by making it a policy NOT to fraternize with the lower ranks. It is here where most of the serious mistakes and career ending events happen. Don't be stupid and don't give a chance for any false accusations to gain root by always having your guard up. Have "private" meetings in public places, offices with windows or don't close your door, make sure your office has windows and if you have an admin that they can observe what's happening in your office. DON'T socialize ALONE with your subordinate, but always make sure there is a group or other parties there. Also, if you catch wind of ANY inappropriate possibly harassing behavior among your subordinates, dig out the HR mandated training because it didn't take the first time and DEAL with the behavior BEFORE it gets out of hand. Project professional behavior and expect the same.
It's not hard, just don't be stupid, keep it professional and if you are the boss, keep witnesses around when dealing with subordinates.
If you do these things: 1. Keep things professional, 2. Stop any behavior when asked, 3. keep your interactions with subordinates appropriate and in public view, you won't have an issue when HR receives a complaint. If you DO have an issue and you where not caught being stupid, then you need to bail anyway because HR is messed up where you work.
"File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
>It should not be any easier ruin a man's reputation (and life) with sexual assault accusations, than it is to do the same with any other suspicions of criminality.
I *absolutely* agree.
But you have to also accept the fact that we live in a country where monsters like that Stanford rapist walk away scot-free even when caught in the act, and that rape is normally an incredibly tricky thing to prove. Barring actually being caught in the act, it will always be a he-said she-said charge.
It's an ugly situation all around.
We have a problem with two kinds of monsters
Women who unjustly ruin men's lives with false accusations
And men who unjustly ruin women's lives with rape
We need to rid ourselves of both of them, and I don't see any easy answers. I think though, that the false accusations shall prove a far more tractable problem - if by nothing else than the growing ubiquity of video recorders. For rape though - we've got a very old cultural demon to face. There's an awful lot of folks like that monster's father, who just don't see why a boy's life should be ruined over "a few minutes fun".
--- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
If anyone actually read the 'story', its a whole lot of personal drama and speculation. I hate to say it but women tend to be more sensitive. So coworkers laughing about something is interpreted as directed at them. Thier minds are not totally sane and it snowballs.
If it was facts and not drama and speculation described, I would think it's possible. But as like uber, its a common theme of Me Me Me. And money. That's it.
The number one rule is don't shit where you eat. Even a dog doesn't shit where it eats.
By that light then why is there a problem with men trying to learn those skills via PUA teaching?
Falling over is one thing, watching someone mash their brake harder while sitting in a stationary vehicle with their hands on a steering wheel is quite another. One causes pain and possibly injury, the other is a harmless prank where a person's perception is played with for a moment.
~ People that think they are better than anyone else for any reason are the cause of all the strife in the world.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
There's one of those playing out in the courts in Australia at the moment between the head of a broadcasting company and his former lover - be honest this time, who do you REALLY think lost their job. Like just about all of these cases in reality the person who started with the most power is the one who get to keep their job while the woman is painted as a whore. Sucks, and is that really what you'd want your daughter to go through? It's not about feminism in any way it's about people being treated unfairly.
Readers you may think you are a weedy little guy but to a small lady who weighs what you could bench press a dozen times you are a threat. To larger ladies that you can outrun you are a threat. I didn't really pick up on that until I came to the city and noticed that many women were physically very weak from almost zero levels of exercise so that even a below average male was a physical threat to them. If you get in the face of a girl who has to rely on you being a nice guy for her safety that can really scare them until they get to know you. On the first shift I worked alone with one petite lady at one job she kept a large garden implement beside her desk for protection because she was scared of me on sight (we'd never spoken before that), and I was the shy skinny guy picked last at sports.
No. It's called taking your work seriously instead of treating it like a playpen.
Since there's plenty of guys who haven't had their life ruined by real accusations until eventually the numbers piled up I think the false stuff has to filed under "too rare to matter" despite it being a staple of TV drama these days.
Phil Spector had a lot of "false accusations", so did Bill Crosby, and it didn't slow down their careers until they crossed that extra line leaving a lot of undeniable evidence just like it hasn't slowed down a lot of others with a much lower profile.
You can see it yourself if you work in a large place and think of all of the current executives who have a reputation due to being accused earlier, false or not, and still have their executive jobs.
Context - obviously.
Why is pretending to be stupid to push a flawed argument such a thing now? You guys are not brain damaged former DJ's coping with the aftermath of years of cocaine addiction with your rants televised for entertainment. Sorry to pick on you rtb61 when you are just following a trend, but it's pointless, self-demeaning and not even funny.
It's nowhere near unique so not unlikely. To sum up, high school mathematics is generally shit so someone who work hard can get through it in a couple of months and then get through a couple of years of undergraduate mathematics in a year if they have a tight focus. I've seen a few students do that when transitioning from a trade to an engineering degree.
It should be "someone who works hard", and puts a strong focus on science/maths/engineering instead of, as I have unfortunately shown, English.
There are many people in this world who are in happy relationships precisely from the job.
Off the top of my head, I must know at least two dozen married couples who met at work, including my parents.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
I don't think women EVER wanted to be cat called and hollered at- and they still don't.
Are you sure about that?
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
a woman or any other protected class
Gender/sex is a protected class, not femaleness. Unless you're claiming men have no gender then they're as much as a protected class as women. The law specifies that discrimination based on a protected class is illegal. It does not specify any special attributes within that class.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
It can not be illegal (nor even immoral) for us to try.
It isn't in general. It is however possible to be so phenomenally cack-handed than you do it in an illegal or immoral way. If you're so confused about it all that you can't see the difference, I suggest that for the sake of yourself and others you don't try until you figure it out. Given your .sig, I strongly suspect you won't figure it out.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
By that light then why is there a problem with men trying to learn those skills via PUA teaching?
PUA teaching has a few nuggets of gold buried in a mount of really nasty shit. It's generally better to leave the nasty shit out.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
I know several married couples that met at work and have a happy marriages. I do not believe that is a problem. All employees have the right to have a safe work environment free from intimidation, harassment, and discrimination. Supervisors and leaders have the responsibility of making sure the workforce is safe for all. This includes protecting potential victims of sexual harassment and those who are falsely accused. This also includes taking disciplinary action when it is required.
Yeah, I guess your referring to Trump, but as a rule I don't see what's good about repulsing most women and being charged with sexual assault.
I think your talking about what people call vacation sex with a no strings attached guarantee, they could pay for sex in Canada if they wanted to but a vacation is a vacation, and it's nice to hear that they're helping you raise your self-esteem.
You picked up on it. Tech workers don't understand women because they don't understand what it means to be a person.
Their attitude leans toward, "But I can make apps and fine tune databases so I'm a demi god and can treat humans as the Olympians did."
I'd like to think that as a tech worker I've gotten around this by staying grounded, but it's open to interpretation (of course).
There's a saying, "Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up."
How about the earlier story referenced in this one, where Susan Fowler received and awkward come-on by her manager, and was not satisfied with merely a "stern warning". What does she expect? That he be fired merely for asking if she's interested in a sexual relationship?
You may not think so, but they do. Hell, even the ultra-PC "liberated" modern-feminist women here in the SF Bay Area do. They love to complain about it, but when it stops, they realize how much they miss it. Case in point: Our group (men and women) went to Burning Man to form a feminist camp primarily for women. It even had a tent for women only, (especially women on their period,) no men allowed. Moreover, men were directed to never come on to the women, never give compliments about physical appearance, and to strongly avoid even looking at women's bodies.
The men, wanting to prove themselves honorable and respectful, agreed. They followed all the directives the women had put before them. They maintained eye contact with the ladies, or looked up at the sky. Everyone shared in the work, with the men pitching in to help with cooking and cleaning, (though the men still handled most of the construction and mechanical work as well.) It truly was a "safe space" for women.
There was only one problem: The women hated it. Within four days, the women revolted against themselves, demanding that the men resume looking at them, noticing them, admiring them, complimenting them, and chatting them up. Actually, in the end, it made for a lot of sexual tension being released in the final weekend.
. Within four days, the women revolted against themselves, demanding that the men resume looking at them, noticing them, admiring them, complimenting them, and chatting them up. Actually, in the end, it made for a lot of sexual tension being released in the final weekend.
There's a HUUUUUUUUUGGGGGGEEEEEEE difference between complimenting women, chatting them up, etc and Cat-calling and Hollering.
HUUUUUUUUUUUUGE difference. The fact that so many people replied saying "women miss it when men stop complimenting them" shows exactly what the problem is. Women like to be noticed and appreciated- they don't like to be Hollered at (for the most part). They like respectful "hitting on them" rather than "hey meat come here and do me" type approaches.
"That's the way to do it" - Punch
She probably found out she didn't negotiate as well as the men did. This is classic, and she can't even sue because she agreed to it. She should STFU and do her job. She can do something about it next year.
...all things being equal.
Now, that also includes the salary you ask for, negotiate, and get. 10 people doing the same job with the same tenure and performance evaluations are still going ot have 10 different salaries ... sometimes vastly different.
If i'm a hiring manager and someone will take $50k even though I have $60k budgeted because it's typical for the position ... I'm going to pay them $50k. That's not discrimination, that's poor negotiation on the employees' part. Then you get promoted a few times which involve % increases...and suddenly you realize you're making 10% less than your peers who got promoted because you were all along because that's the $ you accepted.
While anecdotal, in my 18 years of corporate america I've found that people who aggressively ask for and pursue more $ typically get it. Gender is rarely, if ever, relevant at all.
You can get rich if you own a politician, but you have to be rich to buy one in the first place.
If I were a manager in my company, and hit on a woman working for me on her first day, I'd expect to be in deep trouble. There are three things that may constitute sexual harassment, and making employment decisions contingent on sexual favors is one of them. Hitting on a subordinate is likely enough to trigger that, even if there is no explicit threat or promise. A manager who harasses an employee is a liability for their employer, and propositioning a new employee seems like a reasonable firing offense to me.
In the case you're talking about, the woman went to HR, which is a reasonable response. HR said she should expect retaliation, and lied to her by claiming it was a first offense. That's also probably illegal.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
It may be that Cubans are better at it. The Cubans were also probably not in positions of power over the tourists, and likely backed off when told to.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
Have you noticed the inflatable ones? First laughed at that in Brunner's "Stand on Zanzibar" and now it is real. Advertising slogan: "Watch his ego shrivel as your nipples deflate"....
My dog eats its own shit though.
Wanna buy a shirt?
https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
But that is a problem isn't it? Men are no longer permitted to have a gender in public? And a private space where they can vent, well that is just misogynist?
Seconded
Oh, really? Why would that be?
There are varied uniquely male privileges to be obtained.
There are varied uniquely female privileges to be obtained.
There are privileges that come with decency. I won't say human decency as I have known animals to have that decency and it should be reciprocated.
Very, very few obtain more than a small fraction of the privilege they could obtain.
Very often the members of a given group do not recognise their own privileges as they seem natural within that group. That makes the grass look even greener on the other side of the fence.
There is privilege everywhere. It is hard not to see it. It is best to try and be objective.
That would also be pretty well impossible for any woman I have ever known unless she was the only woman present and maybe not then. If you think that testicles or ovaries do not affect sentience then you go against a massive field of evidence and the bulk of the psychiatry and psychological world.
In case you did not know it, men in majority female workplaces cop a lot too. With far less recourse.
When contacted, Tesla provided the following statement to TechCrunch regarding the new statements made by Vandermeyden to the Guardian:
Tesla is committed to creating a positive workplace environment that is free of discrimination for all our employees. Ms. Vandermeyden joined Tesla in a sales position in 2013, and since then, despite having no formal engineering degree, she has sought and moved into successive engineering roles, beginning with her work in Tesla’s paint shop and eventually another role in General Assembly. Even after she made her complaints of alleged discrimination, she sought and was advanced into at least one other new role, evidence of the fact that Tesla is committed to rewarding hard work and talent, regardless of background. When Ms. Vandermeyden first brought her concerns to us over a year ago, we immediately retained a neutral third party, Anne Hilbert of EMC2Law, to investigate her claims so that, if warranted, we could take appropriate action to address the issues she raised. After an exhaustive review of the facts, the independent investigator determined that Ms. Vandermeyden’s “claims of gender discrimination, harassment, and retaliation have not been substantiated.” Without this context, the story presented in the original article is misleading.
BeauHD. Worst editor since kdawson.
But that is a problem isn't it?
No.
Men are no longer permitted to have a gender in public?
Utterly false. There are quite a number of people who call themselves men's right's activists who seem convinced that man==arsehole so being against arseholes is being against men. I don't believe men are inherently bad, so I don't subscribe to that definition.
And a private space where they can vent, well that is just misogynist?
If you're being a misogynist in private, you're still a misyognist.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
But that is a problem isn't it?
No.
Men are no longer permitted to have a gender in public?
Utterly false. There are quite a number of people who call themselves men's right's activists who seem convinced that man==arsehole so being against arseholes is being against men. I don't believe men are inherently bad, so I don't subscribe to that definition.
And a private space where they can vent, well that is just misogynist?
If you're being a misogynist in private, you're still a misyognist.
You keep your misandry to yourself. You are proving my point. You "don't believe men are inherently bad" but they require re-education don't they?
Women must have safe spaces where they can vent. Maybe they should modify their feelings instead just as you seem to require men to do?
When women look at men's rights activists and say they are arseholes (who consider themselves to be assholes) they might consider that many men might have the same view of feminists for the same reason. You are a bigot. You are a feminist. You are a disrespecter of men. That is established by the "men's right's activists who seem convinced that man==arsehole". You are against any man who does not comply with your wishes and views. You are not an equalitarian."
You keep your misandry to yourself.
Oh I see, your tacic is to invent claims of misandry. Well, sure if you invent any facts you like, you can "win" any argument.
You "don't believe men are inherently bad" but they require re-education don't they?
Again, if you invent opinions that I have, you can "win" any argument.
Women must have safe spaces where they can vent.
They do? The most famous call for safe spaces was for republican politicians, not women.
Maybe they should modify their feelings instead just as you seem to require men to do?
I do?
You are against any man who does not comply with your wishes and views
No, I'm against men (and women as it happens) who are arseholes, but that apparently makes a misandrist. Well, okey dokey.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
No, what makes you a misandrist is the words that you used and the attitudes expressed. I do not do straw men.
You can be as supercilious as you wish but it gives you no credit. You are too young to be aware of many facts it seems. The 'safe spaces' for women goes back as far as the 'sixties. And I agree with it. But I do not agree with the same safe spaces being removed from men. Everyone needs a place where they can talk freely and do not need to constantly monitor their tongue. Even misandrists and misogynists.
No, what makes you a misandrist is the words that you used and the attitudes expressed. I do not do straw men.
You can claim to not make straw man all you like, that doesn't make it true. You can also make whatever claims of misandry you like: likewise that doesn't make it true.
Everyone needs a place where they can talk freely and do not need to constantly monitor their tongue.
That's a blessing and a curse. It allows people to be who they want, but the trouble is that some people want to be actually literally nazis and see the death of large numbers of people. Social pressure and the implied threat of losing your friends and being disinherited by your family is what keeps a lot of people in line. It's a powerful force which means it can work for good or ill. People are very malleable and reinforcement of bad attitudes causes them to build and reinforces them. Likewise it doesn't do anyone any good to have no one to challenge their bullshit.
Even misandrists and misogynists.
If you think everyone needs a space where they can stew in their own toxic attitudes becoming ever more bitter and foolish, then I question your definition of "need".
SJW n. One who posts facts.
That's also probably illegal.
There are laws against HR lying to employees? What? Isn't that basically their whole job? I doubt that there are many laws about companies lying to employees, unless it involves compensation or represents a safety violation.
However, dogs eat cat shit...not exactly the example I would follow.
APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?