Windows 10 Will Download Some Updates Even Over a Metered Connection (winsupersite.com)

Reader AmiMoJo writes: Until now Windows 10 has allowed users to avoid downloading updates over metered (pay-per-byte) connections, to avoid racking up huge bills. Some users were setting their ethernet/wifi connections as metered in order to prevent Windows 10 from downloading and installing updates without their permission. In its latest preview version of the OS, Microsoft is now forcing some updates necessary for "smooth operation" to download even on these connections. As well as irritating users who want to control when updates download and install, users of expensive pay-per-byte connections could face massive bills.

Comments

Really, Microsoft?

[Anonymous Coward]

At what point do people get fed up and switch to something else?

Re:Really, Microsoft?

[Anonymous Coward]

Never.

"If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever." - George Orwell

Re:Really, Microsoft?

[Big Hairy Ian]

At what point do people get fed up and switch to something else?

Don't know but I'm sure someone will sue M$ for using their telecoms expressly against the users permision

Re:Really, Microsoft?

[cfalcon]

> At what point do people get fed up and switch to something else?

I'm pretty sure Windows users will put up with anything.

Re:Really, Microsoft?

[stealth_finger]

Windows is pissing me off, mac is too expensive and I don't know anything about linux nor have the time to devote to it. What else have you got?

Re:Really, Microsoft?

[Bozzio]

I've got the uncomfortable fact that nobody owes you anything and that you'll just have to deal with the reality of your situation.

Re:Really, Microsoft?

[harperska]

Try Haiku. It is free, and much simpler than Linux. The fact that no software exists for it yet just means it's even easier to use.

Re:Really, Microsoft?

[Anonymous Coward]

A massive class-action lawsuit is about the only thing that is going to stop Microsoft from doing this kind of thing it seems. In light of how the company has behaved ever since the release of Windows 10, I hope they lose and are fined tens of billions of dollars in cash.

Re:Really, Microsoft?

[ai4px]

Right about now.... just last week an update broke my wifi driver. I actually rolled back to last week's acronis backup to get my PC working. So yeah, don't know if it is any better, but this morning I'm actually shopping mini-macs for the home PC. Getted damned tired of restarts that take 8 minutes. My tablet will (android and ipad) will both restart like nothing happened. Microsoft has really hosed themselves on this one!

Re: Really, Microsoft?

[0123456]

Most people find MATE-based Linux easier to learn than Windows 10, because, unlike Windows 10, Linux looks like the Windows they've used for decades.

Re: Really, Microsoft?

[Cajun Hell]

If it's already installed for them, then there isn't anything more to learn than they'd have to learn with Windows 10 anyway.

Re:Really, Microsoft?

[slk]

Switch to what?
Mac is a mess with non-expandable hardware and an OS that has gotten nothing but half-assed "borrowed from the iPad" updates over the last few years.
Linux does not usefully run productivity hardware such as high speed scanners (yes, I've tried it, and no, the inability to do things like automatic page sizing means it is not usable). It also doesn't play well with gaming (even light gaming) quality GPUs without an awful lot of hassle.
I've used damn near everything on the desktop (Windows, Mac, Solaris, Linux, FreeBSD, Irix, etc). Right now it pains me to say that Windows 10, especially with WSL, is the least awful option. At least you can get Thinkpad keyboards with it...

Re:Really, Microsoft?

[gfxguy]

That's an awesome post (and you deserve the insightful mods) because you answered both the parent and GP posts. I use very high end software that runs on Windows and currently nothing else. All the idiots that keep telling me to use Linux (I already do when I can) do not understand the reality of most people's situations.

Re: Really, Microsoft?

[gfxguy]

Nice. And I won't worry about security or running the most recent versions of the software I'm required to use for work. It's all good.

Re: Really, Microsoft?

[gfxguy]

Agreed - everything you install thinks it's the most important thing you use, as if it's the only thing you use , even just simply drivers. My video drivers nag me to update, my printer drivers nag me to update, anything from Adobe, Apple - they all run these f#@king background processes checking for updates. Like much of Windows 10 telemetry and spying, you need to jump through hoops to turn it all off.

Re:Really, Microsoft?

[JenovaSynthesis]

You also forgot the part where Apple will sell you old hardware and never drop prices either.

Re:Really, Microsoft?

[Stan92057]

We windows user don't want to throw away the good money we spent on very good products,programs and games that will not run on any other platform. Those being Mac,Linux. Cant talk for the others but im more then willing to switch but unwilling to throw away money to do it.

Re: Really, Microsoft?

[tepples]

Windows 7 still has about three years of "extended support" left, which includes security updates to Windows. Which software that you're required to use for work has dropped support for Windows 7 or 8.1?

Re:Really, Microsoft?

[Wootery]

That's stupid. Of course there's something MS could do to drive people away from Windows.

Perhaps wholesale breaking of backward-compatibility might do it. Well, if there were a Linux desktop distro worth taking seriously as an alternative, at least (I admit I've not been keeping up on that front).

Re: Really, Microsoft?

[Merk42]

If it's already installed for them, then there isn't anything more to learn than they'd have to learn with Windows 10 anyway.

If it is already installed for them....that's a major hurdle. Finding something other than Windows (or macOS) pre-installed is nigh impossible*, the exception being Chromebooks which seem to do well.


*yes I know of things like System76, or even the Dell computers, but the average person going into a Best Buy is not going to see them.

Re:Really, Microsoft?

[Anonymous Coward]

Didn't they do it in part already, when going from XP to 7 and then again 7 to 8? 7 was based more on a win64 subsystem, as opposed to XP, and 8 again broke a few things that ran under 7. Point is that all Windows ISVs HAVE developed versions of their software for Windows 10, so application support is still good.

The only thing that would drive people from Windows is if support dried up. Look at Windows Phone to see why. The phones are good, if not great, as is the OS. However, most popular apps that are there on iOS and Android ain't there on this, and that's what caused the Lumia to fail. Similarly, if software vendors stopped making Windows DESKTOP versions of their software - preferring instead MacOS, ChromeOS, BSD or Linux, that's when Windows would dry up. One would see leading signals - like when all laptops or desktops are preloaded with ChromeOS, SteamOS, et al

Re:Really, Microsoft?

[Drgnkght]

This is known as the Sunk Cost Fallacy. (Hint: That money is already gone.)

Sunk Cost Fallacy
How the Sunk Cost Fallacy Makes You Act Stupid
Sunk Cost

Re:Really, Microsoft?

[Stan92057]

Hint: The money is spent but the guess what? i still have the product....that cant be used on any other platform except for windows. lame argument no matter how many times you post it.

Re: Really, Microsoft?

[budgenator]

It's not like the average person on the street is going to bother learning Linux.

So how is that different from average person on the street is not going to bother learning Windows? Most people only use the computer for web browsing and Firefox is Firefox, for the minority that do more LibreOffice is interchangable with Office for everybody except a minority of powerusers and for minscule number that don't use web-based email Kmail will work as well as outlook. Kubuntu is pretty much works automagically, even more than Windows.

Re:Really, Microsoft?

[Drgnkght]

In other words, you lied in your previous post. You aren't actually willing to switch operating systems. You also, apparently, didn't read any of the links I included. Your logic is basically irrational and exactly as described in all of them. You're willing to accept any future abuse from Microsoft because in the past you spent some unknown amount of money on Windows software? Good luck with that. You need to accept that money you've already spent doesn't always determine the best path forward. Situations change and past decisions may need to be re-evaluated.

Re:Really, Microsoft?

[pnutjam]

OpenSuse, it's like Linux, but easy.

Shh... Don't tell him.

Re:Really, Microsoft?

[Anonymous Coward]

But that's already there. I recall a while back when I had Adobe Acrobat 6, which ran fine on XP, but once I upgraded to 7, I had to upgrade Acrobat as well. In fact, when people migrated from XP to 7, there were some applications that wouldn't run under 7, which is why that whole XP mode thing under VirtualPC was there. If that's the deal, then how is it worse than running, say, VMware under a Linux distro? As it is, the CPUs are all pretty much x86s - there ain't too many ARM laptops out there yet, nor are there PowerPCs, SPARCs or MIPS based PCs. So it's not like one would necessarily be emulating a Windows environment with CPU level instruction translations.

How many software titles are there that you bought for Windows 7 that still run without you having to buy upgrades for Windows 10?

Re: Really, Microsoft?

[sexconker]

Anything quick and easy done enough times gets boring.

Like your mom.

OOOOOOH SICK BURN!

Re:Really, Microsoft?

[Thanatiel]

A few months ago I abandoned about half my Steam library, switched to a Manjaro-OpenRC and I'm not looking back.
These stories are a good way to remember why I only have a bit less than 200 games left on my machine.
That and the fact the computer does what I want and feels much more responsive than it used to.

Re: Really, Microsoft?

[nukenerd]

What other consumer- grade OS which can be freely installed by OEMs is there? It's not like the average person on the street is going to bother learning Linux.

The average consumer is in the browser all the time - for webmail, Facebook and porn. The underlying OS makes no difference to them as long as they can see the icon to launch the browser.

Re:Really, Microsoft?

[Bert64]

Mac is a mess with non-expandable hardware

Most people never expand their hardware, they buy a machine, use it as-is for a few years then throw it out and replace it with a newer one...

and an OS that has gotten nothing but half-assed "borrowed from the iPad" updates over the last few years.

Well what updates would you like it to have? There's been nothing really compelling added for years to any os...

Re: Really, Microsoft?

[cfalcon]

Your bitching would have more merit if Windows 7, 8, 8.1, and 10 didn't have radically different UIs.

MATE, is an alternative to GNOME. The Windows equivalent roughly would be whether you have a version of windows explorer with a start menu and bar at the bottom (ex: MATE), or some tiled bullshit with oddities. MATE is closer to the classic Windows interface than modern Windows interfaces are.

Re:Really, Microsoft?

[cfalcon]

> I use very high end software that runs on Windows and currently nothing else. All the idiots that keep telling me to use Linux (I already do when I can) do not understand the reality of most people's situations.

That's not MOST people's situations, that's YOUR situation. MOST people could switch totally to Linux. There are some people who could not, but whatever your "very high end software that runs on Windows and currently nothing else", it doesn't sound like MOST people using that. The most common thing with Windows is "WINE doesn't support $RECENT_GAME, screw Linux imma stay on Windows and put up with anything". That's not the same as "I need Windows for compatibility with this professional program". Plenty of people with that use case, but definitely not "most".

Re:Really, Microsoft?

[Gravis Zero]

I've got the warning about Microsoft screwing you over that I've been telling you since the early 2000s. I'm glad you finally got my message... but why did it take you so long to listen?

Re:Really, Microsoft?

[Highdude702]

You can always run Windows in a limited VM for your "very good products" that you spent money on. And block all outside access completely to it or limit it at your will.

Re:Really, Microsoft?

[TheEdgeOfRage]

Well, there's Fedora, Mint and Elementry. THose are pretty user friendly and easy to switch to from windows.

Re:Really, Microsoft?

[n329619]

Sunk Cost Fallacy

The Misconception: You make rational decisions based on the future value of objects, investments and experiences.

The Truth: Your decisions are tainted by the emotional investments you accumulate, and the more you invest in something the harder it becomes to abandon it.

It depends if the op is picking based on emotional investments rather than a business investment.

As the op is "more then willing to switch" meaning he/she is not picking based on emotional investments, he/she surely do not fall under this fallacy. Usually those that do fall under this fallacy are fanboys/girls who pick based on emotion and thus apply emotional investments.

Re:Really, Microsoft?

[Wootery]

Didn't they do it in part already, when going from XP to 7 and then again 7 to 8?

Not really, no. You can still play really old games and run really old business applications in Windows 10.

About the phones thing: it's at times like this I wish the web-as-the-ultimate-platform pipe-dream were a reality.

Re: Really, Microsoft?

[Wootery]

But, windows dev is the easiest dev. By far hands down. With OS X or Linux, I don't even know where to begin and think it would be.

How about some specifics? Windows has UWP, WPF, and WinForms. Linux has Qt and Gtk. Or JavaFX if you're into that kind of thing, or various others. Which toolkits specifically do you mean?

It profitable enough to care. Especially for Linux.

Well sure, Linux desktop apps are a much narrower market than Windows.

Not the terrible integrated stuff. Ubuntu, which is hugely popular as the windows alternatives is ---- like windows and Mac.

What's your point? Ubuntu has a 'store' which is web-searchable. It had one long before Windows did. Not that either are authoritative anyway.

Re:Really, Microsoft?

[chrish]

Most people never expand their hardware, they buy a machine, use it as-is for a few years then throw it out and replace it with a newer one...

Apparently the poster does, since they mentioned this. Personally, I'm really fond of upgrading RAM myself, replacing the hard drive when it fails (or I need more storage, which is probably more likely with SSDs), or the battery when it inevitability loses its ability to hold a charge.

Well what updates would you like it to have? There's been nothing really compelling added for years to any os...

I'd be happy if Apple would stop breaking things that developers need. valgrind has been broken for two major OS X (err, sorry, "macOS") releases now, for example. Apple's major innovations on Mac appear to be pointless rebranding, grafting a tiny, pointless iPad to the top of the keyboard, and selling outdated hardware at premium prices.

I do like the TouchID system though, that's great for security.

I can't wait for the new MacBook Pro that'll just be an iPad Pro connected to an iPad (for the keyboard) by an expensive hinge.

Re:Really, Microsoft?

[gfxguy]

That's completely wrong - most people need to use MS Office and outlook - and while there are alternatives (and you can use OWA for Outlook), alternatives aren't good enough for large organizations. We're not talking about programmers, we're talking about assistants and accountants and managers who are told from the top down what software they are using. YMMV, but MOST people need to use MS at work. A lot of places offer Mac as an alternative, but in no place I've ever worked have assistants and accountants and managers been given the choice to use Linux. This has ZERO to do with games.

Re:Really, Microsoft?

[Insanity Defense]

At what point do people get fed up and switch to something else?

Different times for different people. Summer 2007 for me.

Re:Really, Microsoft?

[TechnoJoe]

When ReactOS (or equivalent) can do most anything Windows can do.

People & businesses want a drop-in replacement for Windows, and all their software that runs on it. Rewriting (or buying) software for another OS just isn't going to happen. And WINE isn't up to the challenge for graphic intensive games or device drivers.

Re:Really, Microsoft?

[Stan92057]

no i didn't lie, linux has not corrected the reasons i cant switch OR use my windows based programs. If you were even a tiny amount correct lol then why is linux at 2% worldwide desktop installs.after 25 Plus YEARS clearly if your argument held any water more then 2% would be using Linux. Again your lame argument is just that, useless words that no one cares about.not your money so why would you care...I will stick with 7 untill..

Re:Really, Microsoft?

[Stan92057]

You can always run Windows in a limited VM
useless advice..guess why?

Re:Really, Microsoft?

[Highdude702]

Let me guess you have some special use case and don't know how to integrate it into a vm?

Re:Really, Microsoft?

[Stan92057]

Well for one thing no clue how what it takes to go to ALL that trouble to use my programs when Windows 7 just works. And you wonder why people don't switch we don't have to. Their will come a time when my PC dies then i can switch but plenty of after market parts to keep my PC running for at least another 5 years by that time maybe Linux will have things sorted out.. i dought it though, been 25 years so far..You cant just install windows 7 on a VM when you don't have a full copy of windows 7

Re:Really, Microsoft?

[Highdude702]

Its not hard to learn, Windows 7 does not have a lot of driver support for newer hardware and software. not to mention the exploits to be found after microsoft completely stops supporting it. you dont have to worry about that with linux as long as youre willing to learn a little bit as you go. as ive said on almost every linux post to people saying what you say. start with an easy system and play with it in your spare time. search for open source software for what you do. in my experiences i can find FOSS for almost everything i do with computers. and most of them work rather well. Its technology, you really cant use old systems forever and the current state of where windows is going. i dont see it lasting much longer.

Re:Really, Microsoft?

[Stan92057]

lol dude Ive been playing with FOSS for better then 15 years Ive tried just about every poor copy FOSS has made.except for 1 program whats it called these days? LibreOffice? Cant seem to stay in one groups hands long. Again when linux catches up and does what I want i will happy switch but not until then. Ive had to reformat my PC far too many times because of that stinking lousy grub bug linux cant seem to fix either. been burned way too many times to trust any linux supporter.

Re:Really, Microsoft?

[Highdude702]

Well the fact that ive had the same linux OS install across multiple versions of hardware.(ive done the same with this copy of windows. it needs to be sent to the farm soon because of it) i dont understand what you guys do to ruin your system so fast. you claim to be experienced boasting 15 years of this or that. but obviously lack the skills to learn. im just here trying to help, i couldnt give a fuck if your computer works, or if microsoft trolls you for the rest of your life making every penny on your soul that they can. because the bottom line is My shit works! And i never have issues with it short of some piece of hardware maybe committing suicide like the drive that died on me the other day. I try to give advice and maybe even see if i can ask some questions to try figuring out where youre going wrong. but noooo your response is "Microsoft may anal rape me nightly but atleast i dont have to learn!" and you call yourselfs nerds.. maybe the april fools title isnt a lie.

Smooth running of advertising

[Alain Williams]

Do the 'vital' updates include new adverts with which to pester the user ?

Re:Smooth running of advertising

[ITRambo]

Only if they're considered to be vital by Microsoft, so probably.

Re:Smooth running of advertising

[Anonymous Coward]

They are not advertisements but suggestions and hints which only benefit the user.

Re:Smooth running of advertising

[wizkid]

Of course they do.
Microsoft wants to be the new Google. ALL HAIL MICROSOFT.

I'm going to go throw up after that last comment....

Re:Smooth running of advertising

[Stan92057]

Now, now Microsoft says they are not ads just .......suggestions. hahahahahaha...

Re:Smooth running of advertising

[thegarbz]

Of course not. They are backed into a core part of the OS. You don't get those via Windows Update.

You don't have a choice.

[Anonymous Coward]

With Windows 10 you gave Microsoft control over their computer. If Microsoft wants their computer to act a certian way, it will act that way regardless as to the way you want it to act.

Don't like it? Install a different OS. Can't do that yourself? Learn how or find someone who can. Hardware won't let you? Buy better hardware. That's your fault for buying locked down hardware to begin with. Can't find non-locked down hardware? Learn how or find someone who can.

At this point Microsoft has made it perfectly clear who owns a computer that runs Windows 10: Microsoft.

Re:You don't have a choice.

[ai4px]

I opened file explorer the other day and it actually had an advert for MS cloud storage! Not a web browser pop-in, but wthin file explore. Amazing... they are really pissing off their retail customer base and I'm quite sure there's a reason our IT department hasn't upgraded everyone to 10 yet.

Re:You don't have a choice.

[tepples]

Can't find non-locked down hardware? Learn how or find someone who can.

So here's my question to those Slashdot comment section users who can:

Which current 10" laptop models are currently recommended for running X11/Linux, with working Wi-Fi, webcam, screen brightness, and suspend, without presenting a "Please press Space then Enter to wipe everything" prompt at every boot that others won't know how to skip? Or must one just accept the increased bulk and weight of a 14" model from System76?

Re: You don't have a choice.

[Zero__Kelvin]

Pick one. Chances are it will work. I've installed Linux on hundreds of laptops. You are still talking about "issues" that haven't been an issue for more than a decade.

Re:You don't have a choice.

[Anonymous Coward]

Thinkpads are pretty good. I use a T61: just be sure that you get the model with Intel video card rather than Radeon/Nvidia (those are crap driver-wise).

Crank out the $20 for a T9300 Penryn CPU and the $25 for 2x2GB of RAM (the 4GB DDR2 SODIMMs and the T9500 Penryn are off the sensible price chart) and you are good enough for most serious work. The repair manuals are good: get acquainted with them for CPU/RAM/fan unit changes. Changing the CPU is astonishingly annoying, though not half as annoying as changing the Pccard slot. This was better when Thinkpads were from IBM rather than Lenovo, but at least they still hand out the instructions and with time you learn a few shortcuts of your own.

They are a bit bulkier than current-day offerings but it doesn't matter all that much since you can cram them in a backpack with climbing gear and expect to get them back out in working condition.

Forget about the latest 3D video games though. But they are good enough for stuff like video editing and multitrack recording.

Re:You don't have a choice.

[alexo]

I see the Windows 10 fiasco as a great opportunity to promote Linux, maybe something in the spirit of the "Get a Mac" campaign.

However, I don't think that there are commercial interests behind the "Linux on the desktop" idea, so there is no-one willing to foot the bill.

Re:You don't have a choice.

[thegreatbob]

Would anybody here contribute to a Kickstarter or other croudfunding scheme that intends to make and distribute non-partisan Linux/OSS television commercials?

Re:You don't have a choice.

[TechnoJoe]

One of Microsoft's own rules of security: If you run someone else's software on your computer, it isn't your computer anymore.

F***

[xxxJonBoyxxx]

I just got boned this weekend during some video editing by an UPDATING NOW...OOPS CRASHING!...RESTART...CRASH...RESTART...CRASH... sequence that took 2 hours and a bootable USB stick to resolve I've been relying on switching my network to a "metered" connection to avoid getting crapped on when I'm just trying to get something done, but it looks like that's about to become a thing of the past. Thank you Microsoft! May I have another?

Re:F***

[olsmeister]

Just block it at the firewall.

Re:F***

[Anonymous Coward]

At this point it becomes simpler to install Linux - From Scratch.

Re:F***

[Kjella]

I just got boned this weekend during some video editing by an UPDATING NOW...OOPS CRASHING!...RESTART...CRASH...RESTART...CRASH... sequence (...) Thank you Microsoft! May I have another?

if ( os() = win10 ) { while (you.gape() != goatse.gape() ) { fuck++; } ) }

Re:F***

[DworkinLV]

Seriously, I already block most MS servers (Except Updates and CRLs. I don't run on an actual metered line, but live in an extreme rural area, DSL @ .4-.5 mbs FTW) and don't want updates from 3 to 4 Windows 10 setups to murder the limited net access I have.

Before long Router vendors "SHOULD" be offering choices like "Block MS Telemetry", and "limit update times to certain times of the day", and "Block all unnecessary MS servers" option.

Its not hard to setup a linux firewall to block this stuff. And cron jobs that modify the firewall behavior at certain times aren't all that hard. If Microsoft pushes too hard someone will profit on mitigating the problem. And I don't think MS would want us to block entire sites like "IOnedrive", "Bing" and the "Store". I already block them at my business and home. Others should too until MS gets the message that their BS isn't acceptable.

My machine, my Network, my rules.

Re:F***

[swimboy]

if ( os() = win10 ) { while (you.gape() < goatse.gape() ) { fuck++; } ) }

FTFY, don't want to get caught in an endless loop, especially one as dangerous as this

Re:F***

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft is single-handedly killing the PC industry. Good job Micro$uck.

Re:F***

[lgw]

Syntax Error: Invalid Left-hand side in assignment (os() = win10)

Not an error, that's them sneaking in the forced upgrade.

Re:F***

[LVSlushdat]

I suspect thirdparty firmware for routers, like Tomato/DDWrt/OpenWRT might be the first to introduce a feature like that.. I'd love to have that feature on Tomato as thats what I'm running on my Asus router.. Though I don't run Windows on any of my systems here, I do have family members/friends of family members who often bring Windows systems in the house and use the guest wifi I have configured on the router, which just connects to the internet, nothing else..

Re:F***

[bmk67]

I left for coherent punctuation.

Re:F***

[Gravis Zero]

I've been relying on switching my network to a "metered" connection to avoid getting crapped on when I'm just trying to get something done, but it looks like that's about to become a thing of the past. Thank you Microsoft! May I have another?

Yes but only if you keep using Windows.

Re:F***

[n329619]

Pro tip: If you value your production, either disconnect from internet or don't use Windows 10. There are plenty of alternatives including different OS, one click download turn off Windows 10 updates and manual instructions to turn off updates on the internet. If you can't find one, you're not looking hard enough.

Re:F***

[Anonymous Coward]

Why go the esoteric route of pretending the Ethernet connection is metered -- not that Win10 even officially supports that configuration -- when there's a perfectly good policy item for this.

Win+R, "gpedit.msc"
    Computer Configuration > Administrative Templates > Windows Components > Windows Update > Configure Automatic Updates: Enabled, "2 -Notify for download and notify for install"

Being notified every day that there are windows defender definition updates may get annoying, but at least it asks before downloading (and/or installing) updates.

Good

[b0bby]

The people on metered connections, or those who care enough to set their non-metered connections to metered just to try to get some control, may finally be pushed to try something new. I'm always impressed at how well Mint has worked on any recent installs, and I haven't come across any showstoppers for my use. More users for Linux (and MacOS, but I don't really care about that).

Re:Good

[Mitreya]

The people on metered connections, or those who care enough to set their non-metered connections to metered just to try to get some control, may finally be pushed to try something new.

Don't worry, they'll be sent back to Microsoft by the RTFM crowd and issues with gaming, miscellaneous required software and hardware support.

I'm always impressed at how well Mint has worked on any recent installs, and I haven't come across any showstoppers for my use.

Let me ask you this -- have you had to research your hardware first?
Last time (a few years ago, admittedly), I complained about issues getting WiFi in Ubuntu to work, I was told (here) that I should have researched my hardware better before trying to install.

Don't get me wrong, I prefer Linux for work and for command line convenience. But as a personal computer there are still some gaps.

Now I'll wait for being down-modded by everyone claiming that their grandma has been running custom Linux for years without ever noticing that it replaced her Windows box. (I would really like to meet one of those grandmas!)

Re:Good

[rahvin112]

You have clearly not used Linux or not used in a LONG time. I get better hardware support on Linux than I do on windows. About the only thing LInux doesn't support better than windows hardwarewise is hardware Dongles. Microsoft and manufacturers deliberately refuse to make drivers work with windows, I've got a perfectly functional scanner that won't work with anything newer than XP but works wonderfully on Linux.

With most newer hardware these days it's supported in Linux before it's even sold, often months ahead of Windows.

Re:Good

[Slalomsk8er]

Sorry no grandma - I only got a grandpa that is on Ubuntu for years. It is not so hard to pull off as I had the choice of hardware and trained him on to Firefox before switching.

He does not care for the OS. YouTube, Facebook, Gmail, a local news site, and the Webcams on the homepage of his golf club is all he cares about in a PC.

For me the support got a lot easier after ditching Windows as I had to fix his profile once a week and write the ghost back every few months.
Now I just go and update Ubuntu every 6 months ;)

Re:Good

[b0bby]

Let me ask you this -- have you had to research your hardware first?

If I were buying a new machine, I'd probably do some research. For a standard desktop, I wouldn't sweat it. The last laptop I installed Mint on was a few years old Sony which was given to me to dispose of by a co worker who was sick of Windows not working on it for her. I put in an SSD and ran the Mint install to see how it would work, and everything except the camera worked out of the box. I did a little googling and less than half an hour later that was working too. Would I want to tell my mom to get that camera working? No. But it wasn't beyond anyone who's at the point of worrying about limiting Windows update.

That laptop I sometimes use to connect to Windows desktops at work, and even RDP works well. There is literally nothing I want to do on a regular basis that I can't do on that machine. Admittedly I don't use Adobe Creative Suite or anything specific like that, nor gaming, which could be a dealbreaker for some people.

Re:Good

[Mitreya]

I put in an SSD and ran the Mint install to see how it would work, and everything except the camera worked out of the box.

The distribution will also matter. There are too many out there.
I do consistently hear good things about Mint lately, so it will be first on the list to try.

Re:Good

[tepples]

I get better hardware support on Linux than I do on windows.

I guess it really depends on which particular make and model of laptop you have. Recent Ubuntu on an ASUS Transformer Book T100TA still has broken suspend, broken camera, and broken Bluetooth.

Re: Good

[Zero__Kelvin]

There is nothing out of the ordinary Scott my Mom, save she is far less computer literate than most, and has often thanked me that she doesn't have all these problems with that awful Windows the way her friends do.

Re:Good

[b0bby]

I would certainly recommend Mint; I have several friends who also have had good luck with it although one is having some driver issues syncing a Samsung phone. I like CentOS on servers but I think Mint is a better desktop.

I do remember the days of frustrating little issues which would take days of forum hunting to resolve (if I ever managed to), so I am very aware of what a minor miracle it is when everything Just Works.

Re:Good

[Miamicanes]

> Microsoft and manufacturers deliberately refuse to make drivers work with windows

The problem wasn't that they deliberately broke drivers. The problem was that Microsoft didn't follow the NT HAL paradigm with TWAIN.

When NT4 came out, Microsoft had a SERIOUS problem with lack of driver support for anything that resembled an imaging device. If you wanted imaging hardware that supported NT, you were stuck paying enterprise-level prices for it. The mainstream industry basically told Microsoft, "find a way to make TWAIN work on NT, or we aren't going to support NT."

Microsoft knew manufacturers would eventually come around if they abolished non-NT Windows... but they also knew there was a chance the strategy could fail if Win2k had an imaging-driver problem as bad as NT4's, and consumers were to dig in and refuse to adopt XP. And in fact, much of the early "stuff doesn't work on Win2k" was a lingering artifact of that problem.

So, Microsoft wrapped Twain in a shell of duct tape, and made it (sort of) able to limp along under NT architecture. Basically, they made it so the vendor could re-wrap their old source in a new binary wrapper specific to a version of Windows whenever a new version of Windows came out. The problem was, only someone with the original sourcecode could do it... and lots of manufacturers either went tits-up during the first dotcom crash, or were acquired by other companies with zero interest in making even the slightest effort to support older hardware.

As a result, lots of scanners that initially didn't support NT4 or Win2k AT ALL eventually DID support Win2k. A few even got later drivers to support XP.

WDM (since Vista) has slowly brought a degree of sanity to Windows imaging drivers, but once again broke backwards compatibility as badly as before. Many scanner drivers ignored WDM (or released really, really buggy WDM drivers) and supported only TWAIN. Those are the scanners that worked under Vista, but broke under Windows 7 (which made TWAIN strictly a front-end for back-end drivers)

Now, we (finally) have vendor-supplied miniport drivers that work kind of like a SANE back-end. We're still (mostly) stuck with TWAIN as a version-specific front end, the key difference is that NOW, Microsoft releases THEIR OWN generic TWAIN driver that uses the miniport-implemented scanner driver, so old scanner drivers can at least continue to work (albeit, often with reduced functionality) under newer versions of Windows.

Re:Good

[LVSlushdat]

Now I just go and update Ubuntu every 6 months ;)

Why in the WORLD don't you put these end-users on an Ubuntu LTS? You must LOVE the extra work upgrading Ubuntu every six months rather than
every 5 YEARS....... I've put some elderly relatives/friends on Ubuntu, and I'd NEVER in my worst nightmare use anything but an LTS. Several of these
folks were originally put on 10.04 then upgraded to 12.04, and now they're on 14.04 EasyPeasy, only have to worry about it once every 4 or so years..

Re:Good

[LVSlushdat]

I've got 4 friends who have Windows 10 systems they got around Christmas last year. Every damn one of them is begging me to find the time to upgrade them to Linux. 2 of the 4 had older systems I'd upgraded to Linux and they want to have their new shiny i7 system cleaned of the malware that is Windows 10, and the other 2 are referrals from some other friends who heard I do Linux "upgrades"...

Re:Good

[erapert]

Every time I tried to install Linux on a laptop I have had hardware issues.

System76 makes fine Linux laptops.
And if you read /. at all then you've no doubt noticed that Dell sells Linux laptops too.
This won't solve your problems with laptops you currently have issues with, but in the future perhaps you should consider buying a laptop from one of these vendors.
Need some incentive? Apparently Dell's Linux laptops are $100 cheaper than their Windows laptops because they're not making your pay the Microsoft tax.

Re:Good

[Slalomsk8er]

Easy, so he runs the same version that I use and to make changes more gradual for him.
And yes, I love the extra work as I will see my family and be fed some nice cake and coffee while I'm and my grandparents place.

No cake for you if you remote update every 5 years!

With a non-stop stream of

[IWantMoreSpamPlease]

"WTF are they thinking!?" style news stories surrounding Win10, I have to ask...

Aside from gaming, is there ANYTHING Win10 does better than Win7? (and for the snark among you, I'm talking about a real advantage, not in regards to telemetry, spying, less control, etc.)

Re:With a non-stop stream of

[i_ate_god]

I do like the flat UI

Re:With a non-stop stream of

[Anonymous Coward]

1. Win10 gets a better console. Yep, still outdated, but better than that of Win7.
2. As a Java developer who is forced to use Win at work, the Linux subsystem is a nice addition.

Re:With a non-stop stream of

[Big Hairy Ian]

Have you noticed how nobody seems to want to advertise on W10?

Re:With a non-stop stream of

[Scoth]

I've had the pause and resume copy/moving come in handy several times. It's also much more resilient to network blips while moving things around thanks to that.

Directly mounting ISOs in virtual drives without needing PowerISO or other third party software is kind of cool.

I like the corner-snapping that windows can do now - I made a lot of use of the side by side and drap-to-top functionality, so the corner one is even better. Especially on today's big monitors.

Nothing earth-shattering, but nice little improvements. I don't actually hate Windows 10 at all, aside from the privacy issues.

Re:With a non-stop stream of

[caseih]

Glad to know someone does! Most people I know really don't like the flat white look. It's quite hard on the eyes. I've found a couple of free themes that make things look a lot better. Sadly it's really hard to find good, free themes. A lot of nice ones are from cleodesktop, but they not free. And themes only work on certain builds, due to requiring hacks to the Windows theming dlls.

Re:With a non-stop stream of

[rahvin112]

Task manager is finally functional, I'm not sure why it took them 20 years to get a functional task manager.

Re:With a non-stop stream of

[squiggleslash]

It's very nice for 2 in 1 devices - laptops that convert into tablets. I don't use the latter feature often, but when I do it's a godsend. The same thing is why I haven't switched my brand new laptop to GNU/Linux yet, despite the latter being an OS I massively prefer. None of the major desktops that support the desktop paradigm (that is GNOME 2, Cinnamon, and MATE - both GNOME 3 and Unity go some way to avoid being that) are particularly touch friendly, and the concept of the UI switching modes depending on environment seems to be foreign to FOSS developers right now.

Other than that, and the ability to run Ubuntu command line applications, it's not much better than 7 and has a lot of downsides, particularly the UI latency which in some areas, such as the Start menu, is ridiculous.

Re:With a non-stop stream of

[erapert]

Aside from gaming, is there ANYTHING Windows does better than Linux? (and for the snarks among you, I'm talking about things the OS does, not about software that may or may not exist on either system).

Here, let me fix that for you.

Re:With a non-stop stream of

[Ambassador Kosh]

Windows 10 runs faster on multicore processors. On a quad core i7 I get about 15% faster performance with MATLAB or my own HPC threaded applications on Windows 10 vs Windows 7 due to the newer scheduler. It was added in Windows 8 but refined a lot in Windows 10.

For my simulations I now get almost identical performance on the same hardware with Windows 10 and Linux and it used to be that Windows was always slower. This has made it easier to do testing on other systems. I mostly deploy on Linux but Windows is also a supported platform.

I also get a bit better battery life under Windows 10 compared to Windows 7 or 8.1.

Re:With a non-stop stream of

[Ambassador Kosh]

Oh one really important thing I forget is the Windows Subsystem for Linux.

With that I can run most linux binaries under windows without changes. This has made it far easier to work with linux systems since you have a real bash and ssh to work with. I can even compile my simulations under WSL and run them without problems.

WSL has made doing linux development much faster and easier and I look forward to the updated WSL in the april windows 10 update and integration with VS 2017.

One up side

[Groo Wanderer]

There is one real up side to this. Microsoft as you know only puts out small, efficient updates in the minimal needed package sizes. This should be great comfort to users on metered connections, they are only being lovingly graced with the minimum needed amount of bytes. Can you imagine if Microsoft was one of those companies that pushed out near-daily 100+MB behemoths to update a spelling error in notepad's FAQ? Luckily they don't do this, and we all win!

                    -Charlie

Note: Yes this is sarcasm. If you didn't get that by the 19th word, go play with some tiles.

Re:One up side

[AmiMoJo]

That's probably what Microsoft is actually thinking. They recently introduced differential updates... Welcome to the 1980s... so that Windows Update patches are smaller. So they probably figured that they could now force them on people on metered connections.

Re:One up side

[zlives]

don't read it yet, its full of grammatical errors. Just wait till win11.

Re:One up side

[Groo Wanderer]

Luckily he won't have to. The latest diff patch slated for April 1 should fix over 72% of those. It weighs in at a mere 73GB and is considered essential by Microsoft because an exec's husband wrote portions of it for the Bob project. Awfully caring of Microsoft to help out users like that.

Re:One up side

[zlives]

i think you are mistaken, April 1st is the release date of win11 hypervisor which lets you select the fully operational and supported version of windows of your choice. Sadly it only includes Vista 1.0, win95 1.0, and win10 as options.
April 1st 2020 is the release for win7 and winXP.

and before you go and say that you can do this already using linux or osX well... win11 doesn't require the internet to connect to the internet. the 73 GB is really a super compressed version of all the internet.

We control your OS, not you...

[evolutionary]

Basically, MS found people taking control of their updates using the metered connection feature. This of course is the problem with auto updates, especially run by control freaks: they can ensure control over your operating system. Funny thing is...you PAY them for it. (See Mark Tawin, Tom Sawyer, Whitewash chapter...) If this isn't proof that MS cannot be trusted with updates I don't know what will. You can still turn the Windows Update service off in the services panel (under administrative tools in the control panel). And given that MS wants to in effect hijack your operating system, I'd keep it turned off, switch to a Linux distro (Linux Mint is nice) and drop Windows 10 in essence telling MS to F*** off.

Re:We control your OS, not you...

[erapert]

You paid the Microsoft jizya* when you bought the computer.

Not if you bought a Linux laptop from Dell.

This isn't new.

[Anonymous Coward]

This isn't new, I was pushed a few updates last year despite being set as metered.

Disable startup of the BITS and Windows Update services. I think I took away "System"'s execute privilige from them as well. Turn them back on according to your schedule to manually update.

Re:This isn't new.

[Opportunist]

That's basically the way to go.

For now.

Re:Cry me a river

[ITRambo]

No matter what goes wrong with Windows MS PR claims It only affected a "small number of users". Followed by the fix will be coming "soon".

Re:Cry me a river

[Opportunist]

Oh cool, you pay for me to have an unmetered connection available?

Thank you, I really appreciate it!

Re:Unacceptable

[Opportunist]

No.

Fired out.

Of a cannon.

My current build of windows 8 is likely my last...

[Tyr07]

I've been running Windows 8, the start menu change didn't bother me and I found it ran rather well and stable.

I've secured my install, and finally after windows 10 garbage and microsoft doing shitty "telemetry" I mean I can't believe they even call it that.
It's flat out spyware that watches how you use it and sells the information to people, and advertisers.

Anyway, I stopped windows update when I saw this coming out as I knew I couldn't trust their updates and just have to watch out for exploits released and lock it down myself. Fortunately I don't need a lot of windows services for how I use my system.

After things finally stop running on windows, I'll be switching to fulltime linux. In fact, just for multi-media / gaming, is the only reason I keep windows.
I dual boot to linux as is. I'll be sad to lose some performance and ability to play some games, but I'll get over it.

Using my bandwidth and my hardware that I pay for that is not subsidized by microsoft to serve me ads and collect data from me by microsoft, is not happening.

You will obey Microsoft, resistance is futile...

[QuietLagoon]

... forcing some updates necessary for "smooth operation" to download even on these connections...

It seems that Microsoft really needs to keep those data harvesting operations running smoothly, as they may now be a source of revenue for Microsoft.

Ok MS you own ME $20 per meg so that 1GB updates

[Joe_Dragon]

Ok MS you own ME $20 per meg (one of the highest roaming fees) so that 1GB update.
Costs you
Data = $20480
IRS paper work fees = $100
Bill pay fee = $10
Bank fees = $50

Re:Found the LUDDITE!

[Anonymous Coward]

You sir are an imbecile!, An imbecile is 3 steps down from a Luddite, which, judging from your post, seems to be something you despise. Keep it up, people like you give retards a bad name!

Thank God

[Holi]

Thankfully I have a Kaby Lake processor and Windows 7, thus I don't have to worry about updates anymore.

Re:Thank God

[Holi]

Link in case you missed that story:

https://tech.slashdot.org/stor...

Limited connections, means just that.

[CptLoRes]

There are very real scenarios where you have truly limited connections where every byte counts. People working offshore on boats for example know what I am talking about. It's not uncommon that the entire ship crew have to share a single 512Kbit/sec satellite connection for their public internet (they also have dedicated channels for ship critical systems). A single unwanted download session could then make this unusable for everyone. Or even worse if you get a rouge win10 machine on the dedicated systems it could take down the critical parts also. It's sad when your OS is looking more and more like a piece of malware.

Re:Limited connections, means just that.

[Calydor]

I have a 448/96 kbps ADSL connection. I live so far from the DSLAM that literally nothing else is available.

I am thankful on a daily basis that I took so many steps to prevent Win10 from getting installed on either computer in this house, because those update sizes, at times I don't get to decide, would render the internet effectively unavailable. Last I heard was 4 GB of updates getting pushed at one time, to two computers ... yeah, that's three solid days of downloading.

If Microsoft pays for putting fiber in the ground here, THEN we can talk about Windows 10, but until the world is unambiguously covered in 20 mbps or above connections they are cordially invited to traverse and autofornicate.

Re:Limited connections, means just that.

[mea2214]

They should simply firewall all attempts to connect to microsoft.com on the router terminating the 512Kbit/s link.

Re:Limited connections, means just that.

[knorthern knight]

> Phew! My win10 machine is blue.

Including the screen... ba da boom.

Re:Found the LUDDITE!

[Big Hairy Ian]

Only LUDDITES hate automatic appdates because they're too stupid to know how to use apps! Modern app appers love automatic appdates because it lets them app even more apps while apping other apps!

Hmmm most other OS's automatic updates don't require hours of down time and often unexpected reboots. M$'s automatic update system could only be worse if it was designed by a government employee

What's this Windows 10 you speak of?

[Anonymous Coward]

Those of us who know, use "Squid".

Just disable the update service

[Solandri]

Tap the Windows key, search for "services". Start the Services Desktop app. Scroll down to "Windows Update" and double-click it. Set it to disabled, and stop it if it's currently running. If you're paranoid, you can disable BITS (Background Intelligent Transfer Service) as well.

I had to do this on a computer running security camera software (very inconvenient if it reboots in the middle of a night due to an update). But you can do this if you just want to be in control of when your computer updates (I had to do it on my gaming laptop as well because Win 10 keeps trying to install newer generic Intel video drivers which are incompatible with Nvidia switchable graphics). Just repeat the process and temporarily enable the update service when you're ready to update.

Re:Just disable the update service

[spire3661]

"I had to do this on a computer running security camera software (very inconvenient if it reboots in the middle of a night due to an update)"

Why do you have critical infrastructure running on a desktop????

Come on guys

[subanark]

The hate for MS is real. This isn't inherently a bad idea. If a 50K update patches a security hole that would allow someone to turn your computer into a member of a bot net, you'd be glad you got that update.

Re:Come on guys

[prunus.avium]

Except when that 50kB patch puts you over your bandwidth limit for the month -- if you have a bandwidth limit -- and costs you "up to $100 at [the providers] discretion at any time". Quoted section from a large ISP for overage charges.

And that's assuming there was only one update for the entire month. There was a reason to set the ethernet connection to metered for many people.

Re:Come on guys

[subanark]

If your at the point where 50Kb will push you over, just turn off internet completely.

In any case you will always find someone negatively impacted by any change that affects millions (if not billions) of people.

Re:Come on guys

[0123456]

"This isn't inherently a bad idea."

You do realize that some people's Internet costs dollars per megabyte, right? And they're probably in the middle of the freaking jungle, where they don't much care about some hole that might be exploited by ten-megabyte web ads, because they don't go anywhere near sites like that?

Microsoft are completely clueless about computers in the real world, which is why more and more people are trying to get away from them. My next Windows PC will basically be a $2000 game console, because I'd never try to do real work on a Windows PC again.

Re:Come on guys

[iris-n]

If you could control updates to your computer, your post would make sense. You would have

Option 1 - No updates
Option 2 - Metered connection, just small and security critical updates
Option 3 - Update at will.

But we live in a world where there is no Option 1, and nobody trusts Microsoft to actually use Option 2 as they claimed.

Re:Come on guys

[subanark]

It's more about some port being open which is exploitable to attacks, maybe something like a bug in the system clock that will brick your computer on a certain date, or maybe they need to revoke a trusted cert.

No matter what you do, when you manage a system that is widely used, you will negatively impact someone.

Re:Come on guys

[tepples]

Joining a botnet would put you even further over your bandwidth limit for the month.

Re:Come on guys

[thegreatbob]

I did a fun little experiment with Win 10 developers preview; after it expired, I rolled back the system date... this allowed it to boot one last time. After running for a few hours, it bluescreened with a message "SYSTEM_LICENSE_VIOLATION", and appeared to self-destruct... it would not even attempt to boot after that.

Re:Come on guys

[Calydor]

Which is why Windows 10 makes it possible to pick which updates to install and when to install them!

Oh wait.

Re:Come on guys

[thegarbz]

I wish a provider did try and charge me $100 for 50kB over the limit. The resulting win the courts would be quite lucrative for me.

Re:Come on guys

[Grishnakh]

You do realize that some people's Internet costs dollars per megabyte, right?

Maybe those people will get a clue and switch to an OS vendor that aligns better with their situation and needs. I doubt it though.

Microsoft are completely clueless about computers in the real world

I see no evidence to support this claim. Instead, it's pretty obvious that they simply *don't care* about users' petty little problems, like having extremely expensive metered connections. If you have one of those, that's your problem, not Microsoft's. If you don't like the way they manage their OS, you're free to pick another. But how many people are going to?

My next Windows PC will basically be a $2000 game console, because I'd never try to do real work on a Windows PC again.

People keep making these bold claims, but they never follow through.

Re:Come on guys

[michael_wojcik]

And Microsoft has never screwed up an update, so they're perfectly safe.

And they've never installed anything users didn't want.

And they never forcibly reboot your system, or nag you to do so.

Oh, wait.

This sentence makes my ass twitch.

[fahrbot-bot]

... forcing some updates necessary for "smooth operation" to download even on these connections ...

I have several ass-related jokes queued up, but can't decide which one I like best.

Re:This sentence makes my ass twitch.

[Calydor]

I think you misspelled 'sand paper'.

Re:Unacceptable

[Opportunist]

Repeatedly.

Noooo, think of the poor guy that has to clean that cannon. Human garbage is really disgusting if mixed with gunpowder.

Inevitable

[kelemvor4]

Feature added.
People use the feature for purposes other than intended
Feature removed.

What did everyone expect?

Fuck software

[AndyKron]

I am so sick and FUCKING TIRED of all the constant updates from every fucking piece of software. Fuck computers.

Re:Fuck software

[spire3661]

We are at the point now where things simply refuse to run if you dont update it. Every time there is an update for Geforce Experience, Nvidia purposefully breaks my recording functionality to force me to update their software. No choices, either update or the program refuses to run...Thats where we are now, get used to it.

Re:Fuck software

[hairyfeet]

Try Raptr with their PlaysTV app, they have an Nvidia optimized version and an AMD optimized version and they work quite well for recording 1080P 60 FPS, you can even record live coms or go back after the fact and record a commentary if you wish.

As for TFA? This is why I've advised my customers to avoid Windows 10 like an STD. I've researched my behind off and there really is no way to remove the spying, its baked far too deeply into the core of the OS and every time you turn around MSFT does more douchebaggery with that OS so its just not worth the hassle. You'll spend more time fighting the OS than you will actually getting shit done, its just not worth the BS.

Windows 7 gets updates until 2020 and Win 8.1 until 2023 and hopefully by that time Nutella will go the way of the sweaty monkey and we'll actually get someone in there who knows more than buzzword bingo. With the Ballmernator it was "We gotta be Apple! We'll ape iOS poorly!" and with Nutella its "We gotta be Google! We'll ape ChromeOS/Android poorly!" while both forgot the fundamental purpose of an OS which is STFU, get out of the way, and let the user run their programs with the least effort or interference by the OS not to give them inroads into markets they suck at (Ballmernator and his Apple fetish) or to give them an endless revenue stream selling the user's data to every business and TLA with a checkbook (Nutella and his google fetish) which is why they couldn't even break 40% giving their flagship away.

Re:Fuck software

[spire3661]

Amen - posted from my brand new Ubuntu box. I loved waking up this morning knowing my machine would start right away, with nothing in my way. Im stuck with windows for my VR development gear, at least for now, but those machines no longer hold personal information of any kind. I basically turned them into 'arcade installs'. If MS hadnt lost their mind and forgot what an OS is, i might be willing to pony up for Enterprise and LTSB, but all im really trying to buy is trust, and that is long gone.

Re:Fuck software

[LVSlushdat]

Love Ubuntu.. When I get offered updates on Ubuntu, *I* choose when to reboot, *if* a reboot is *even* necessary... Back when I still used Windows, it seemed like every damn update wanted a reboot... Soooo glad I don't have to worry about MS problems anymore...

Re:Fuck software

[thegarbz]

I am so sick and FUCKING TIRED of all the constant updates from every fucking piece of software. Fuck computers.

There's an easy solution. Just unplug your network cable and wireless antenna.

Note that this is something you should probably be doing anyway if you're inclined to not apply updates because you're sick of updates, or at the very least tell us your IP address so we can block you at our firewall along with the rest of China and Russia.

Re:Fuck software

[erapert]

Im stuck with windows for my VR development gear, at least for now...

Unreal Engine 4 handles VR quite well (disclaimer: my day job is developing VR using UE4) and SteamVR will be coming to Linux very soon.

Re:Fuck software

[Grishnakh]

while both forgot the fundamental purpose of an OS which is STFU, get out of the way, and let the user run their programs with the least effort or interference by the OS not to give them inroads into markets they suck at

This is simply wrong. The purpose of a commercial OS is to make money for the company that sells it, and as much money as possible. If that means making users' lives miserable in the process, and selling off their private info, then so be it. Even if they do illegal things, that's OK as long as the cost of lawsuits or government fines is less than the profit generated.

Honestly, I'm utterly shocked lately at how many people simply do not seem to comprehend the fundamental purpose of a for-profit corporation like Microsoft, and keep expecting companies like that to act morally, and are then disappointed when they don't. This isn't rocket science; it's very simple. If an action will make the company more money, then it's the right action to take. Spyware, adware, forced updates, etc., make MS more money, so for MS they're the proper course of action. Worrying about pissing off users will not make MS more money (since they're not going to abandon Windows anyway), so wasting time and resources on that is not the proper course of action.

As for their marketshare numbers, they really don't matter that much. They're not going to make money with people who stick with Win7; that product has already been sold, and has been in the market for quite some time. They don't have to worry significantly about people choosing between Windows and other OSes, so there's no reason to offer Win7, or an otherwise less-user-hostile OS; that will simply cost them more money in resources and give them less profit. The obvious course of action is to simply coerce users into upgrading into Win10 where they can generate more profit through spyware. While many users will hold out for a while, eventually they'll be forced to upgrade to 10, which is why they've locked out Win7/8 for the newest CPUs for instance. Users' hardware and software isn't going to last forever; eventually they'll want something newer and faster, or want to use some newer SW which only works in 10, and they'll be forced to adopt it. And any users who really can stick with an ancient system forever aren't going to make MS any money anyway, so there's no point in catering to them.

Re:Fuck software

[antdude]

Ditto. I miss the old days of computing that didn't have so many issues, security vulnerabilities, bloatness, better usabilities, user experiences, coolness, designs, simpleness, reliabilities, etc. :(

Re:Fuck software

[antdude]

Apple also want reboots too. Argh!

Re:Fuck software

[Waccoon]

I am so sick and FUCKING TIRED of all the constant updates from every fucking piece of software. Fuck computers.

Most insightful response in the thread, because this is what ORDINARY people are thinking every day, not just the Slashdot crowd.

I've breathed computers since the C64 days and love technology in general, but since smart phones showed up, it's been one massive disappointment after another. I gave up on web development as a career for a reason.

Re:Fuck software

[swillden]

Ditto. I miss the old days of computing that didn't have so many issues, security vulnerabilities, bloatness, better usabilities, user experiences, coolness, designs, simpleness, reliabilities, etc. :(

Actually, what you miss is the days when computers weren't connected to the Internet. They've always had security vulnerabilities -- in fact consumer systems were far worse than they are now -- but it didn't used to matter so much. The always-on net provides an always-available attack vector, and also means that once your device is pwned, it's an always-on threat to the rest of the network.

As for the rest (bloat, usability, etc.)... that's in the eye of the beholder. If you want to run DOS, you can still run DOS. Personally I find modern systems and apps to be much more usable. I suppose there are exceptions, but I can't think of any at the moment.

Just do it.

[JustNiz]

It amazes me just how abusive Microsoft can make their products and still people will put up with it, keep using them and even buy more. After Windows 10 especially, I bet even Microsoft are surprised at how far they can abuse people and still get away with it.

Come on guys, just totally ditch Windows already. You already know you should. Just do it.

Re:Just do it.

[cloud.pt]

Google comes to mind. Not sure why though, and that's the gist of it really - you can't be hurt by what you can't feel. Much like initial agencies snooping around secretively, indiscriminately.

Re:Just do it.

[JustNiz]

At least Google is fairly high-quality software, user-friendly, and free to the end-user (its far more bug-free and secure and controllable than Windows at least). I think most people intuitively realise there must be a hidden cost somewhere, which involves ads their private data. I mean even Google make no secret of that.

Buying/using windows is kinda like paying for your own prison. The worst of both worlds. Not only is is a shit, buggy, user-unfriendly product, its not free, not secure, It takes over your PC and removes control from you, it also advertises to you, and Microsoft also secretly snoop and sell your data. Its basically a quadruple (or more) whammy to google's single whammy.

Re:Just do it.

[thegarbz]

It's incredible how people are so quick to call it abuse. The reality is a large number of users just don't give a shit and take an "updates happen" approach to their world view. An even larger number of users are actively thankful for these updates being pushed without them needing to exercise brain cells.

For Microsoft to be abusive users first need to feel abused.

Re:Just do it.

[blahplusplus]

Ever paid for an mmo? Used steam? bought agame with onlin drm? Used an iphone? Most people fed this, even technologically literate people. The free market DOES NOT WORK when the business is 100 miles away PLUS the internet, before the internet corporations couldn't shove policy with broadband they will just do what the want and kids/idiot adults will just keep feeding money to apple, valve+steam and the big game companies. Game companies pioneered the walled garden with mmo's and drm, then smart phones came along... once MMO's took off and dlc/microtransactions to that small retard percent of the population gave companies like riot at league of legends massive profits, that 3% or less of the population is SOOO profitable and so fucking stupid with money that 97% of us even if we make the dont pay decision get fucked by that idiotic 3% because these businesses can sustain on that at scale.

Re:Just do it.

[JustNiz]

Theres a BIG difference between "convenience" and "forced on you whether you like it or not".

Re:Just do it.

[thegarbz]

Theres a BIG difference between "convenience" and "forced on you whether you like it or not".

Indeed. But the latter is not something we are talking about. As said in my premise the vast majority of users don't have a concept of "like it". Updates just are. The idea that updates happen more often is just accepted. The idea that a company will push security updates to people who generally just accept the updates is not abuse.

You ask why people put up with it? Show me the outraged public, then we can talk about alternatives to putting up with it.

And as if to comically prove my point I just got a notification that 6 applications have updated on my phone, and I'm not even going to look at that list.

Re:Just do it.

[JustNiz]

>> But the latter is not something we are talking about

Speak for yourself. You introduced the concept of most people not caring, not me.

>> And as if to comically prove my point I just got a notification that 6 applications have updated on my phone, and I'm not even going to look at that list.

Not even close to the same. Your phone almost certianly gives you the option of how to accept updates, which you have already decided to set or leave set to automatically download/install updates. because sheep like you have been sucessfully brainwashed to not care about whatever dogfood/spyware etc someone freely throws on your phone. The same option in Windows 10 doesn't even exist. You HAVE to take whatever they decide to throw at you.

Re:Just do it.

[thegarbz]

Speak for yourself.

No, you're speaking for yourself. I'm generalising on the wider market.

Not even close to the same.

You missed the point I was trying to make in my last few sentences which was that people in general just accept updates as a thing that happens. The fact my phone updated 6 apps while I was making my post was just an example of where the callousness comes from. If "we" expect everything to update then "we" don't give a crap if the updates are forced on us.

We in this case being the 99% of people not on Slashdot

Re:Just do it.

[JustNiz]

>> No, you're speaking for yourself. I'm generalising on the wider market.

On what evidence? gut feeling? How about some actual data if you're going to speak for everyone?

>> You missed the point I was trying to make
No I totally got it, I just think (for my case at least) its bullshit.

>> We in this case being the 99% of people not on Slashdot
Ahh I see you have personally polled 99% of readers here about this? OR are you just bei ng arrogant enough to automatically presume nearly everyone else marches lock-step to your opinions?

Re:Just do it.

[thegarbz]

On what evidence? gut feeling? How about some actual data if you're going to speak for everyone?

Sales figures, and general lack of outrage anywhere other than tech forums. The absence of data is data in itself in our hyper bitchy everyone blogging about everything they hate world.

(for my case at least) its bullshit.

I do agree. As someone who uses a PC for controlling mechanical devices in many cases the ability for a system to update and shut itself down is most definitely bullshit.

Ahh I see you have personally polled 99% of readers here about this?

See my reply above. Are you saying that 99% of Slashdot readers don't complain about updates? Your UID is too low for me to ask "are you new here?"!

Re:My current build of windows 8 is likely my last

[thegreatbob]

Bought a copy of 8.1 when 10 came out, with the intention of leaving the Windows ecosystem entirely (for personal purposes, anyhow) by 2023 when the security updates cease.

enterpise desktops

[fish_in_the_c]

Most large business 'fix' this problem by creating a different entry from the MS update server that lives on their local network. Allowing them to control when updates are pushed to their desktops. Why not use the host file to 'fix' this problem if you have metered connection.

Re:enterpise desktops

[StormReaver]

Why not use the host file to 'fix' this problem if you have metered connection.

Because you shouldn't have to. After being raped, would you suggest that the victim just keep a better brand of lube around? Or would you suggest that maybe the rapist needs to be in prison? Or barring that, maybe suggest that living in, "Rape City, USA" is a bad idea?

Re:enterpise desktops

[tepples]

Why not use the host file to 'fix' this problem if you have metered connection.

Because Windows has started to use a different resolver for "servicing" the operating system, such as updates and telemetry.

Re:enterpise desktops

[Anonymous Coward]

No, it can't. Not on Windows10, no, not even on Enterprise LTSB, no neighter dns- nor hosts-hijacking works, the ip's for windows update are hardcoded, so STOP SPREADING THE BULLSHIT ABOUT THE HOSTSFILE!!!

Also, even if you have a WSUS, Windows10 will still download updates from Microsoft. If you still think thats not true, setup a windows10 VM, "disable" everything you can and point to a (working) wsus set to download and install every update automatically, it accumulated >100GB internet-traffic in the first six month of windows10 - on a machine that just sits there, absolutely no user using it (it's there for this exact

Re:enterpise desktops

[Grishnakh]

Yes, I would suggest the victim keep a better brand of lube around, if they're utterly refusing to leave "Rape City" where rape is actually legalized and an everyday occurrence for most residence.

Re: Hi, we're Microsoft.

[HannethCom]

Nope, I'm pretty sure it is Marketing that has taken over there. Just look at all the ads, stupidity of Modern, stupidity of the ribbon bar and marketing loves their telemetry!

You're the idiot who keeps using that software.

[Anonymous Coward]

Try not being an idiot and change it. The reality of your situation is that you can act. You're just lazy or ignorant or prefer to just complain.

Tell your vendor that if they don't get off Windows onto Linux then you will leave as a customer. If there is no alternative AT ALL, then take another job. If your job required you to tongue wash the CEO's car every morning, you would leave. If you were self employed and the government regulation meant you were giving up all your money in taxes etc and paying for complianc with new laws, YOU WOULD STOP and do something else.

And you CAN (but YOU DECIDE NOT TO) do something about this.

And when others tell you "Move to Linux", that is their way to tell you you can change your situation. Complaining that they're wrong, you can't, is a lie.

Re:You're the idiot who keeps using that software.

[Wootery]

Except that (assuming you don't know gfxguy's situation ahead of time) you have no idea whether that's actually true in this case.

For some work, there is simply no practical FOSS alternative.

Re:You're the idiot who keeps using that software.

[Calydor]

If you're ever pissed off about how oil and power companies are ruining the environment, you can get rid of your car and get a bicycle.

You will have trouble getting to work, picking up the kids, buying groceries and getting around, but BY GEORGE you stuck to your principles and the oil and power companies ... didn't notice at all.

Re:You're the idiot who keeps using that software.

[gfxguy]

One of the most moronic things I've read in a long time.

Try not being an idiot and change it. The reality of your situation is that you can act. You're just lazy or ignorant or prefer to just complain.

Sure, I can take the moral high ground and live on unemployment.

Tell your vendor that if they don't get off Windows onto Linux then you will leave as a customer. If there is no alternative AT ALL, then take another job.

Except the reality of the situation is Windows is not that bad to lose your job over. Moreover, I'm one user of one of our dozens of systems that run this software, and we're one company of hundreds that use it. The company is very good, but I'm doubting they'll throw away their cash cow because I'm complaining. Again, you really don't get the reality of most people's situation. Let's say you're an X-Ray technician, and the software you use, which is the industry standard used at 95% of the hospitals, runs on Windows. Do you take the moral high ground and throw away your career just because the excellent software you're using runs on Windows? Good luck with that.

This isn't A Knight's Tale and you can't change your stars. Get over yourself. If I was writing website back ends (and sometimes that's the work I do), I insist on Linux because I can. If you're running Adobe AfterEffects, you have no such luxury, and Adobe doesn't give a f#@ what you think, and your company just wants you to get it done with the tool all the other artists are using that they've already paid for.

All this grandstanding the Linux zealots are throwing out there doesn't take into consideration that, in reality, Windows isn't THAT bad to lose your job over. Most of us are grown up enough to deal with it. I have a preference - I prefer Linux when possible, but I'm flexible enough to use whatever they give me.

Re:You're the idiot who keeps using that software.

[n329619]

Alternatively, you could try getting a hundred balloons onto a beach chair and send your kids off to school. You'll save so much money, you'll be green inside and out.

This crazy Canadian did it, so can you.

Re:You're the idiot who keeps using that software.

[R.Mo_Robert]

If you're ever pissed off about how oil and power companies are ruining the environment, you can get rid of your car and get a bicycle.

You will have trouble getting to work, picking up the kids, buying groceries and getting around, but BY GEORGE you stuck to your principles and the oil and power companies ... didn't notice at all.

Look, I know you weren't necessarily striving for accuracy and were just trying to make a point, but as someone who commutes to work (and the gym, the grocery store, and almost everywhere) by bicycle, you're wrong about most of those things. It's actually easier for me to bike than drive to work because otherwise I'd have to worry about the parking nightmare that is most downtowns, and if you don't think you can do groceries you might want to look up "rear rack" (and rear panniers). Don't ever plan on having kids but it's certainly possible to transport them, as well (I see lots of dads and the occasional mom doing so here). You might be right about the oil companies to some extent, but it's certainly been noted that younger generations are less interested in car ownership than older ones were at that age, so somebody's noticing.

Re:You're the idiot who keeps using that software.

[Calydor]

I did say trouble, not that it was impossible. You have to agree that buying groceries for the next two or three weeks is a LOT easier when you're driving home in a car than a bike, no?

That's the problem with analogies, though. There will always be cases where they don't fit, or with you where you'd equal the use case of someone who CAN painlessly switch to Linux because everything you do now has a direct Linux equivalent.

Re:Found the LUDDITE!

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean people like you who don't obviously don't get the joke.. the joke that's actually on people like you who love mobile/'cloud' garbage and are dragging the rest of us down with you..

Power management in new CPUs

[tepples]

Unlike Windows 7, Windows 10 gets drivers for the power management features in newer CPUs, such as Kaby Lake and Ryzen.

Re: Automatic updates can be easily disabled

[Zero__Kelvin]

Will it's a good thing that most Windows users use Active Directory then!

The abuse continues from Redmond...

[LVSlushdat]

Every few days I read yet another story about the abuse MS keeps heaping on the poor souls who, for whatever reason, still use Windows 10.. Part of me feels sorry for those who either *must* use Windows, for whatEVER reason, or those who just aren't aware of there being viable alternatives to Windows.. And part of my laughs my damn ass off at all the abuse that MS inflicts on their victims. I supported/used Windows for 20 years as a user and a sysadmin. During my career I also used Linux quite a bit, having discovered it via Slackware in 1994. After I retired, I decided I was done with anything MS, and moved all of my systems to Linux.. Couldn't be happier..

Canadian law arguably prohibits this

[davecb]

CASL, our anti-spam law, specifically requires informed consent before anyone installs anything on someone else's computer. There's a class action suitin the wings, waiting for "private right of action" to allow suits this summer.

The CRTC is the only organization that can lay charges, and you should see the rats scurrying around trying to keep the right to lay suits from coming into force (;-))

Re:Found the LUDDITE!

[budgenator]

I'd be happier if the software on my computer would check for and download updates during my mostly unused bonus time, when it's convenient for me, rather than when it's convenient for Microsoft during my anytime data.
Of course required to keep Windows running smoothly. probably started out meaning required to keep Windows from turning your computer into a brick, but marketing will interpret that as "anytime we want to install more effective spyware or telemetery".

Grandparents

[PedroReina]

Here you have mine: picture
I. e.: real people older than 80 using a Debian box, I take care of installing and administering, they just have the fun (ssh to the rescue just in case).
They moved from MS Win 98; they have trouble using computers no matter wich OS they use, but be sure that all their hardware is working, the KDE UI is not confusing and they are very autonomous.

Re:My current build of windows 8 is likely my last

[erapert]

In fact, just for multi-media / gaming, is the only reason I keep windows.

Why not just switch over full-time? Why bother dual booting?
Multi-media all runs perfectly fine for me in Ubuntu (I did install the non-free packages/codecs).
Check out Steam and see which of your games don't run natively; many of the remainder will run under Wine or PlayOnLinux. For the ones that still won't run then try a VM with GPU pass-through. For the small remainder that still won't run then... well, I got over it and I'm sure you can as well.
The freedom from M$ bullshit was worth it for me. Maybe it'll be worth it for you too.

Re:My current build of windows 8 is likely my last

[Tyr07]

Eventually I will, but I'm not interested in investing into especially expensive graphics cards to get the same performance under windows.

As for multimedia, linux is almost completely on pair, so more realistically I'd just say for gaming. Just because I can get a game to run under linux, does not mean it runs well. You usually suffer some frame drops on a lot of games and I like to keep mine at 60 when possible.

It's also far less forgiving to multi tasking while gaming. I can run many games even in fullscreen on windows, and switch to other screens and processes without any hiccups, but if I'm using wine to run it, I'm likely asking for a crash.

Right now I don't need to give it up as my current windows OS isn't 10, and still compatible with it. But as you said, for what I can't run, I'll get over it.

But I'll get over it when I need to, not to burn microsoft for something they already got my money for. I'm only hurting myself at that point.
By refusing their next OS and not purchasing more of their products, that's how I get them.

Isn't that special

[stolidobserver]

I remember when I "upgraded" to Windows 10. Shortly thereafter, Comcast decided the South should have data caps because they can. I got a bill for overage and I was like nonplussed as to how that happened. I looked at my data usage and here is what I found: Onedrive, which I had put one text file in for testing, 1kb, had generated 180GB of traffic for the month... syncing that 1kb text file. Thanks Microsoft!

Re:Here's something to think about

[Bert64]

Except if people can afford to keep buying new hardware, they can probably afford to buy a mac instead, so that what they'll end up doing...

OS verification is OFF

[tepples]

Installing anything other than stock Chrome OS on a Chromebook requires first putting the Chromebook in developer mode. Whenever a Chromebook in developer mode is turned on, the firmware displays a 30-second interstitial warning to the effect "OS verification is OFF; press Space to enable OS verification". Pressing Ctrl+D closes the interstitial. Pressing Space instead warns the user that reenabling OS verification permanently deletes everything stored on the Chromebook, with Enter to confirm doing so.

Use an older PC, Wine, or VirtualBox

[tepples]

Try one of these:

A. Use a PC with a pre-Ryzen or pre-Kaby Lake CPU.
B. Use Wine in GNU/Linux.
C. Use Windows 7 in VirtualBox in GNU/Linux.

If all three are unacceptable, please explain in detail how each is unacceptable.

Re:You don't own your computer

[cfalcon]

It's not "The PC industry" doing this. It is literally JUST Microsoft.

Re:My current build of windows 8 is likely my last

[erapert]

That's perfectly fine with me: I have more Steam games (on Linux) than I can play and more coming out every week.
I don't lose sleep over not being able to play the latest Metal Gear Solid on PS4 nor the latest Halo on XBone nor being unable to play iphone games-- I just go a little further and choose not to lose sleep over Windows-only games as well.

Easy Solution

[RespekMyAthorati]

Just disable the Windows Update service:
URL:http://www.thewindowsclub.com/turn-off-windows-update-in-windows-10)