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Popular Belief That Saturated Fat Clogs Up Arteries Is a Myth, Experts Say (independent.ie)

schwit1 quotes a report from Irish Independent: The authors, led by Dr Aseem Malhotra, from Lister Hospital, Stevenage, wrote: "Despite popular belief among doctors and the public, the conceptual model of dietary saturated fat clogging a pipe is just plain wrong." Dr Malhotra and colleagues Professor Rita Redberg, from the University of California at San Francisco, and Pascal Meier from University Hospital Geneva in Switzerland and University College London, cited a "landmark" review of evidence that appeared to exonerate saturated fat. They said relative levels of "good" cholesterol, or high density lipoprotein (HDL), were a better predictor of heart disease risk than levels of low density lipoprotein (LDL), also known as "bad" cholesterol. High consumption of foods rich in saturated fat such as butter, cakes and fatty meat has been shown to increase blood levels of LDL. The experts wrote: "It is time to shift the public health message in the prevention and treatment of coronary artery disease away from measuring serum lipids (blood fats) and reducing dietary saturated fat. "Coronary artery disease is a chronic inflammatory disease and it can be reduced effectively by walking 22 minutes a day and eating real food." They pointed out that in clinical trials widening narrow arteries with stents -- stainless steel mesh devices -- failed to reduce the risk of heart attacks.

164 of 273 comments (clear)

  1. Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Eat all the Doritos and don't go outside and post about Linux

    then you will be healthy

    1. Re:Good by TheConway · · Score: 1

      Doesn't say that at all. Learn to read.

  2. Who paid for this study? by FrankHaynes · · Score: 3, Insightful

    That will tell you the desired results without even looking.

    --
    slashdot: A failed experiment.
    1. Re:Who paid for this study? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      That will tell you the desired results without even looking.

      It's all backed by the sinister agenda of Big "Walk a half an hour a day and don't eat garbage".

    2. Re:Who paid for this study? by skirmish666 · · Score: 3, Insightful
      FTA

      "This editorial is not founded on good evidence. There is no such thing as 'real food' - the authors don't define what it is so it's meaningless."

      --
      Sigger than your average
    3. Re:Who paid for this study? by lucm · · Score: 5, Funny

      They do have an agenda. Big "Walk a half an hour a day and don't eat garbage" wants people to have a longer and healthier life so senior citizens can be milked longer by bingo halls and casinos. This lobby is in a perpetual fight against another lobby, Big "Eat sugar and die in your mid 60s" who want to accelerate the settlement of reverse mortgages.

      --
      lucm, indeed.
    4. Re:Who paid for this study? by exigentsky · · Score: 1

      How can you not see that suggesting it's only about undefined "real food" and exercise is hugely beneficial to the meat industry (among others)?
        Remember the tobacco company motto "Doubt is our product." This is an awful study deliberately created for that purpose.

    5. Re:Who paid for this study? by sysrammer · · Score: 2

      You're a funny guy. Hope your karma can handle it. I was leaning more towards +1 Insightful, myself.

      --
      His ignorance covered the whole earth like a blanket, and there was hardly a hole in it anywhere. - Mark Twain
    6. Re:Who paid for this study? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Big Walking is part of Big Shoes, Big Shorts, and Big Water. I think they also invested in Big Fruit.

    7. Re:Who paid for this study? by burtosis · · Score: 1

      FTA

      "This editorial is not founded on good evidence. There is no such thing as 'real food' - the authors don't define what it is so it's meaningless."

      I always have difficulty in understanding what "real food" is as well. Most of the time it seems to exclude food that is inexpensive, requires little preparation and tastes good while at other times it seems to exclude foods that are simply too easy to eat. Much of the time it dosent translate into a rational discussion about a balanced intake of protein, carbs and fats and moderation of salt.

    8. Re:Who paid for this study? by cayenne8 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I always have difficulty in understanding what "real food" is as well. Most of the time it seems to exclude food that is inexpensive, requires little preparation and tastes good while at other times it seems to exclude foods that are simply too easy to eat. Much of the time it dosent translate into a rational discussion about a balanced intake of protein, carbs and fats and moderation of salt.

      I should think 'real food' would be somewhat common sense, but here's some help...

      First, real food needs to be purchased at a grocery store, farmers market, etc...not a fast food joint. If you shop around the periphery of the grocery store, particularly the produce area, you are in the real food zone. Real food is food that is not processed to where most all the nutrition has been thrown out or degraded, and a ton of chemicals added.

      Real food, in general, requires YOU to do some preparation and cooking.

      Those two general rules of thumb will steer you towards 'real food'.

      Hope that helps....

      Cooking real food doesn't take that long and it isn't that difficult.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    9. Re:Who paid for this study? by cayenne8 · · Score: 1

      It sure would suck if food had chemicals in it.

      Chemicals added there by humans, that don't naturally occur in them if you're going to be pedantic. Chemicals that usually fall into the artificial color and preservative category which are usually again, man made and contribute no nutritional value.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    10. Re:Who paid for this study? by SCVonSteroids · · Score: 1

      I also heard the later was secretly funded by an unknown guild of funeral home owners.

      --
      I tend to rant.
    11. Re:Who paid for this study? by avandesande · · Score: 1

      Whole foods are food. If you look at the ingredients on the side of something in a box, it if full of things that aren't food.

      --
      love is just extroverted narcissism
    12. Re:Who paid for this study? by budgenator · · Score: 1

      Chemicals that usually fall into the artificial color and preservative category which are usually again, man made and contribute no nutritional value.

      So your sure that what preserves your food doesn't preserve you as well? I think Polar, and Grisly bears, Man-eating sharks, lions and tigers will be disappointed!

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    13. Re:Who paid for this study? by HiThere · · Score: 1

      Actually it does preserve you as well. I was told during the Vietnam war that while Vietnamese corpses would decay grossly within a couple of days, US corpses lasted well for a week. I suspect some hyperbole there, but that's what I was told. The "informant" suspected BHA and BHT, but gave no evidence.

      Now this doesn't say much about being healthy, but it seems to make for a well preserved corpse.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    14. Re:Who paid for this study? by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      Oddly, it also works the other way. If your flesh is already badly oxidized, it's going to resist further decay for a while. Consider beef jerky.

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    15. Re:Who paid for this study? by budgenator · · Score: 1

      jerky is primarily dehydrated, oxidation, especially in fats is called rancid and tastes foul. Many of the spices added to jerky have anti-oxidant properties.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    16. Re:Who paid for this study? by budgenator · · Score: 1

      The Authors of the book "Life Extensions" used to eat a teaspoon of BHT every day, but I don't particularly recommend it.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    17. Re:Who paid for this study? by ninthbit · · Score: 1

      Wow... some people can't take a joke.... Modded down as Flamebait (-1).

  3. the "belief" is not "popular" by turkeydance · · Score: 4, Funny

    it is common, but not welcome.

  4. No. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/04/experts-headline-grabbing-editorial-on-saturated-fats-bizarre-misleading/

    "The report was written secretly and released by the National Obesity Forum, for which Malhotra was also a senior advisor. The Forum is funded by the meat industry and drug companies."

    1. Re: No. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The steak and fries in the picture in the article look really tasty.

    2. Re:No. by sinij · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Their claim largely hinges on a “landmark” 2015 review and meta-analysis of observational studies.

      Translation - claim relies on cherry picking bad data sets to push narrative. Sure, I wish it was true. However, this study is not trustworthy.

    3. Re:No. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      http://www.nationalobesityforum.org.uk/index.php/about-the-nof/our-partners.html

      All-Party Parliamentary Group on Obesity
      National Institute of Clinical Excellence
      Royal College of Paediatricians
      Association for the Study of Obesity
      National Audit Office
      Korean Academy of Family Physicians
      National Association of Primary Care
      LighterLife UK Limited
      Roche Products Ltd
      Abbott Laboratories
      Slim Fast Foods Ltd
      Safeway Foods plc
      Tanita UK Ltd
      Sanofi-Aventis Ltd
      Mantis Surgical Equipment Ltd
      GlaxoSmithKline UK Ltd
      Canderel
      British Meat Nutrition Education Services
      Carlton TV Ltd
      The Obesity Awareness and Solutions Trust
      The British Liver Trust.

    4. Re:No. by OrangeTide · · Score: 1, Offtopic

      Under the new administration the only health plan you can afford is the Walk-22-minutes-a-day plan.

      It's not the worst plan, and it's the cheapest, so good !/$.

      --
      “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
    5. Re:No. by Bongo · · Score: 5, Informative

      https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/04/experts-headline-grabbing-editorial-on-saturated-fats-bizarre-misleading/

      "The report was written secretly and released by the National Obesity Forum, for which Malhotra was also a senior advisor. The Forum is funded by the meat industry and drug companies."

      That's funny, because these people (Malhotra, Eades, Noakes, etc.) who get together at conferences, so let's call it a "movement", they say that the lipid hypothesis was pushed by the sugar industry back in the 50s and 60s as a way to push the blame away from sugar -- that the idea that fat might cause heart disease is what the sugar industry wanted to hear. Meanwhile the British scientist Yudkin thought that sugar was the more likely cause of heart disease. But he was disinvited too often and eventually ignored. If you can't eat fat, you will have to eat carbohydrates, and cereals, and so on. So it is the cereals industry which benefits from the "fat is bad" hypothesis.

      Your or my conviction that, gee, fat really is bad, is merely because that's what we have been taught. We did not go out there and like, spend ten years doing a systematic review of all the literature going back 100 years.

      That's what Gary Taubes did, spent 5 years writing a book about this, tracing the history of the hypothesis. And Nina Teicholz, whose recent book was reviewed in the BMJ with words to the effect, "you'd believe that science was a rational objective process, but after reading this book you'll realise that was naive and the science has been perverted..." (words to that effect, in the BMJ). And hea dof world hear foundation (something like that) recently said that the science behind the heart/lipid hypothesis was bogus.

      How the Sugar Industry Shifted the Blame to Fat

      So the plain and rather obvious fact is, EVERYONE has a vested interest, so at the end of the day, the only thing that matters is, on the word of no-one, is the science actually objectively correct?

      We can play the who-funded-it game all day.

    6. Re:No. by jandersen · · Score: 1

      Yeah - why am I not surprised? When I first saw this headline, I thought that this is nothing new; but I think this is part of a coordinated campaign that runs at the moment. I think it was only yesterday I saw another headline saying that salt doesn't cause high blood pressure - despite the fact that the connection is very well established. This is what makes fact-checking so crucial, because there really are these odious interest groups out there, knowingly spreading falsehoods in order to pump up the profits of their employers, and it harms the health and wealth of the entire nation - or now a days, the whole planet. It is remarkable that at present, the only countries that don't suffer from general obesity and cardio-vascular problems, are the ones where the global food companies don't see a profit.

    7. Re:No. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Three other meta-studies:

      From 2010: Meta-analysis of prospective cohort studies evaluating the association of saturated fat with cardiovascular disease
      Patty W Siri-Tarino, Qi Sun, Frank B Hu, and Ronald M Krauss
      During 5–23 y of follow-up of 347,747 subjects, 11,006 developed CHD or stroke. Intake of saturated fat was not associated with an increased risk of CHD, stroke, or CVD. The pooled relative risk estimates that compared extreme quantiles of saturated fat intake were 1.07 (95% CI: 0.96, 1.19; P = 0.22) for CHD, 0.81 (95% CI: 0.62, 1.05; P = 0.11) for stroke, and 1.00 (95% CI: 0.89, 1.11; P = 0.95) for CVD. Consideration of age, sex, and study quality did not change the results.

      From 2013: Food Sources of Saturated Fat and the Association With Mortality: A Meta-Analysis
      Therese A. O’Sullivan, PhD, Katherine Hafekost, BSc,corresponding author Francis Mitrou, BEc, and David Lawrence, PhD, BSc
      Pooled relative risk estimates demonstrated that high intakes of milk, cheese, yogurt, and butter were not associated with a significantly increased risk of mortality compared with low intakes. High intakes of meat and processed meat were significantly associated with an increased risk of mortality but were associated with a decreased risk in a subanalysis of Asian studies. ...
      We chose mortality as the outcome, as it is generally well quantified and represents a final health outcome. Mortality type included all-cause, CVD, or cancer. Exclusion criteria included animal models and populations defined by preexisting disease or participants younger than 16 years. We did not place any restrictions on follow-up time. We included 26 studies after exclusions, representing data from 1800418 participants.

      From 2015: Dairy consumption and risk of cardiovascular disease: an updated meta-analysis of prospective cohort studies.
      Qin LQ, Xu JY, Han SF, Zhang ZL, Zhao YY, Szeto IM
      A total of 22 studies were eligible for analysis. An inverse association was found between dairy consumption and overall risk of CVD [9 studies; relative risk (RR)=0.88, 95% confidence interval (CI): 0.81, 0.96] and stroke (12 studies; RR=0.87, 95% CI: 0.77, 0.99). However, no association was established between dairy consumption and CHD risk (12 studies; RR=0.94, 95% CI: 0.82, 1.07). Stroke risk was significantly reduced by consumption of low-fat dairy (6 studies; RR=0.93, 95% CI: 0.88, 0.99) and cheese (4 studies; RR=0.91, 95% CI: 0.84, 0.98), and CHD risk was significantly lowered by cheese consumption (7 studies; RR=0.84, 95% CI: 0.71, 1.00).

    8. Re:No. by Aighearach · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I think it was only yesterday I saw another headline saying that salt doesn't cause high blood pressure - despite the fact that the connection is very well established.

      Sorry Bozo, it was always true that salt increases blood pressure in a minority of patients with a particular genetic predisposition to that response. The average patient with hypertension has a very very minimal increase in blood pressure from dietary salt intake, and reducing it in those patients does not improve any of their hypertension-related outcomes. The reason that diuretics lower blood pressure is primarily because they alter the level of salt that your body maintains. Most people's bodies are well able to maintain a fairly steady body fluid salt level regardless of dietary intake.

      The reason you don't know this might be that some researchers publicly accuse people of being murderers for explaining that! Because they fear some ignorant person who didn't get tested will be affected and not go to a doctor to test and then die. This is the nonsense that people face in trying to get medical information generally.

    9. Re:No. by SCVonSteroids · · Score: 1

      Thank you. That was very insightful!

      --
      I tend to rant.
    10. Re:No. by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 2

      You might enjoy this (90m) video, Sugar: The Bitter Truth by Robert H. Lustig, MD, UCSF Professor of Pediatrics in the Division of Endocrinology.

      The video explores the damage caused by sugary foods. He argues that fructose (too much) and fiber (not enough) appear to be cornerstones of the obesity epidemic through their effects on insulin. Series: UCSF Mini Medical School for the Public [7/2009]

      It's pretty technical.

      --
      It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
    11. Re:No. by HiThere · · Score: 1

      FWIW, my wife is one of those people who are sensitive to salt...only in her case she's DRAMATICALLY sensitive to salt. She tries to keep her salt level at about 300 mg/day. I worried that this was dangerously low, but her doctor, after studying her blood level, said that she was keeping her sodium at precisely the correct level. This despite being on really aggressive diuretics (so much so that she is prescribed potassium supplements twice a day).

      OTOH, I don't follow her diet, and probably had better not. So I use soy sauce and Tabasco sauce (green), and order things with normal spicing at restaurants. Most people would still consider my diet generally low sodium, but there are degrees and degrees.

      My real point here is that different people can have quite different dietary needs. Don't assume that because something works for you it will work for someone else. It might, but it also might not.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    12. Re:No. by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      Not just more salt; the Japanese have the #1 highest salt intake in the world. And the longest lifespans. And then people presume they must have a genetic protection, but that study has been done, they don't.

      On an individuals basis each of these things does trade off causes, so whatever your personal higher risks are should be important.

    13. Re:No. by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      Right, that's normal; people who affected at all are generally affected dramatically. So it can be self-tested with a challenge test; check your BP, eat something salty, test it again. If it is close to normal, then reducing it probably will not improve outcomes. If it spikes, then reducing it probably will improve outcomes.

      It is easy to convince people that different people have different needs, but it is harder to convince people to use evidence to decide what their personal needs are. People think about having different needs and instantly turn to their subjective feelings, which isn't what the lesson is at all. There is a tendency to stay all the way to one side or the other of reality.

    14. Re:No. by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Sorry Bozo, it was always true that salt increases blood pressure in a minority of patients with a particular genetic predisposition to that response. The average patient with hypertension has a very very minimal increase in blood pressure from dietary salt intake, and reducing it in those patients does not improve any of their hypertension-related outcomes. The reason that diuretics lower blood pressure is primarily because they alter the level of salt that your body maintains. Most people's bodies are well able to maintain a fairly steady body fluid salt level regardless of dietary intake.

      Says the shill for Big Salt!

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    15. Re:No. by HiThere · · Score: 1

      No, that's not normal. 300 mg/day is well below the normal cardiac diet at a hospital. Every time she's admitted she has to fight with the diet kitchen to get food she can eat. People can have LOTS of variation in their needs, much more than is usually acknowledged even by those who are specialists in, e.g., diet, and certainly more than is usually acknowledged by non-specialists.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    16. Re:No. by cwsumner · · Score: 1

      Lack of salt is far more dangerous than too much, for almost everyone. It can cause blood electrolyte imbalance very quickly, and if it goes too far the temperature stabilization will fail and cause convulsions and death. I keep "Thermotabs" in my med kits

      In hot conditions this can happen very fast. I grew up near the coast and spent the summer on the beach. Tourists sometimes dropped out within hours and the rescue squad trucks had to haul them off. That's one reason salted potato chips became popular on beaches, out there you sweat out salt at a terrific rate.

      If you are going into those conditions, watch your kids. Look for thirst that takes one sip and can't drink more, or headaches in the sun, or general sickness that starts up quickly. Get them salt and water and shade. And good luck.

  5. We scientists must improve our reliability. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's no wonder we're seeing more and more average people question, if not stand against, science. From their perspective, it just isn't reliable any longer.

    It doesn't matter if we're talking about nutrition or climate change. Time and time again average people have been told one thing based on scientific research, but then a short while later they're told that something totally contradictory to the first thing is now correct.

    Science as a whole has a serious boy-who-cried-wolf problem. As scientists we need to be far more careful about the claims we're making, so that people continue to take us seriously.

    We can't do what climate science did in the 1960s and 1970s, and predict imminent doom-and-gloom scenarios for the 1980s that don't come to pass, and haven't come to pass even 30 years after that.

    We can't say today that some food or substance is unhealthy and we should avoid eating it, but then a few years from now say it's healthy, and in fact we need to eat more of it.

    While we shouldn't be afraid to chance our conclusions as we do more research and continue to expand our knowledge, we also can't continue to make claims that fall apart so quickly. We need to be far more sure about the claims we make publicly.

    Each time we contradict ourselves we only serve to make our research, our methods, our philosophy, and our entire field look like a joke. We have to stop being wrong so often if we want to be taken seriously.

    1. Re:We scientists must improve our reliability. by moronikos · · Score: 5, Informative

      More and more information is coming out that "peer review" is sort of a joke. The basic statistics of many studies isn't even verified. Check this on Ars: https://arstechnica.com/scienc...

    2. Re:We scientists must improve our reliability. by Ichijo · · Score: 2

      We can't do what climate science did in the 1960s and 1970s, and predict imminent doom-and-gloom scenarios for the 1980s that don't come to pass, and haven't come to pass even 30 years after that.

      Which respected scientists predicted those scenarios?

      --
      Any sufficiently unpopular but cohesive argument is indistinguishable from trolling.
    3. Re:We scientists must improve our reliability. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's not the scientific community doing this. The cases where scientists take money from special interests to lie about food (carbs are good / eat lots of sugar!) are usually small amounts of very influential and corrupt scientists, not the group as a whole. Many of the sensationalized journal articles are at BEST one study that gets blown up and popularized by newsmen of some sort, who get paid by the ounce of controversy.

    4. Re:We scientists must improve our reliability. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Quite a few. Try dusting off a text book from that era and you'll find it. Along with all the claims that the world would be out of food by 1977. There will be no oil by 1986. And Florida will be under water by 2005.

    5. Re:We scientists must improve our reliability. by tsa · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That's like saying democracy is a sort of a joke. Yes, it has its drawbacks but all the other systems are way worse.

      --

      -- Cheers!

    6. Re:We scientists must improve our reliability. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      If you are referring to this:
      http://science.time.com/2013/06/06/sorry-a-time-magazine-cover-did-not-predict-a-coming-ice-age/

      Time points out that the cover that says this is a fake

    7. Re:We scientists must improve our reliability. by JonnyCalcutta · · Score: 1

      You'll be amazed at what happened next...

    8. Re:We scientists must improve our reliability. by DarkOx · · Score: 2

      Science as a whole has a serious boy-who-cried-wolf problem. As scientists we need to be far more careful about the claims we're making, so that people continue to take us seriously.

      You are partly right, but science is all about making /testable/ claims. Scientists absolutely need to advance their hypothesis backed up by the research and allow others to find counter or confirming evidence.

      What needs to stop happening is people trying to make public policy based on less proven theory. Climate science is a good example its been used as a basis for policies since the 1970's and its predictions and impacts have changed a lot since that time, it was and is an immature field. As is a lot of this psychology that has us putting in special bathrooms in schools etc. We need to step back and let scientists do the work before we start legislating based on it.

      --
      Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
    9. Re: We scientists must improve our reliability. by guruevi · · Score: 4, Interesting

      That's largely because there is neither fame nor money in peer review. Peer review IS being done though, at least in the harder sciences, many studies that build on other studies will at least attempt to verify the original results. Only when they see large discrepancies will they ever be further reviewed and published and then only if the original paper has been of quite some impact to the field (hundreds or thousands of references to the paper).

      Things like this has been known to the scientific community for a while, the models used to communicate the impact of fats and food on your health to the public are just way too simplistic. It's not just about fats, it's what you eat/drink with those fats. The food pyramid is one of those things that has been known to be false soon after it was introduced but even the food plate is way too simplistic and unrealistic.

      Everything you eat (fat, sugar, alcohol, acids etc) has an impact on each other, the French classical diet of "du vin, du pain et du Boursin" (wine, bread and cheese or alcohol, gluten and fat) does not result in fat Frenchmen even though every doctor will tell you it will blow you up like a balloon.

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    10. Re:We scientists must improve our reliability. by burtosis · · Score: 5, Insightful

      More and more information is coming out that "peer review" is sort of a joke. The basic statistics of many studies isn't even verified. Check this on Ars: https://arstechnica.com/scienc...

      While likely true an even more pressing problem is non-scientific clickbait headlines and juiced up summaries and articles about scientific papers/research to simply generate more revenue. No companies seem to care about long term irreparable harm to public consensus. Obligatory xkcd

    11. Re:We scientists must improve our reliability. by helsinki92 · · Score: 1

      Science only allows us to know what the highest bidder wants us to know especially when it comes to Climate Change, Food and Tobacco. These industries have a history of paying for a study and then paying to suppress the results because they did not show what they expected. The public then finds out years later that what their government had been telling them for decades is all wrong because of shifty payoffs.

    12. Re:We scientists must improve our reliability. by PoopJuggler · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I guess you haven't noticed that the climate and environment are in fucking shambles. We've killed 50% of the fish in the ocean since the 1970s. We fucked up the ozone layer. We've filled the ocean with plastic and oil. We've raised the global temperature. We've caused the extinction of countless species of animals. We've decimated rainforests. And all these things continue even now. If guess your idea of "doom and gloom" is vastly different from mine.

    13. Re:We scientists must improve our reliability. by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      It's no wonder we're seeing more and more average people question, if not stand against, science. From their perspective, it just isn't reliable any longer.

      It doesn't matter if we're talking about nutrition or climate change.

      Negative. The problem with food is that there is a bullshit industry built around it that has nothing to do with science. It has everything to do with blaming, marketing, and agenda.

      I forgot to add lies and bullshit.

      All we have to do is look at advertisement. Today, we are starting to eat the healthy sugar again. A third of Americans are avoiding gluten, when only a small number are actually allergic to it. Remember how eating oatmeal was the great health food?

      Then we need to talk to vegans, vegetarians, atkins and caveman people, the drink a shitload of water people, and all the other people who have decided that something something was going to make them live longer.

      Time and time again average people have been told one thing based on scientific research, but then a short while later they're told that something totally contradictory to the first thing is now correct.

      As far as food goes, precious little is science, and marketing and health shaming takes the lions share.

      As far as science goes, bring up some of these completely contradictory science based sea changes, and we can discuss.

      Science as a whole has a serious boy-who-cried-wolf problem. As scientists we need to be far more careful about the claims we're making, so that people continue to take us seriously.

      And a whole lot of people are looking for an eternal truth, an unchanging universe. Religion is probably better for them, and they can reject any and all science, and that will probably satisfy their need.

      We can't do what climate science did in the 1960s and 1970s, and predict imminent doom-and-gloom scenarios for the 1980s that don't come to pass, and haven't come to pass even 30 years after that.

      A couple points on that. A lot of climate deniers like to bring up an article from the 1970's in time Magazine http://img.timeinc.net/time/ma... that they use as proof that scientists believed we were entering a new ice age. Scientists didn't - although I recall a really snowy winter in the Northeast. We've been treated to weird shit like this over the years, attributed to science, but actually designed to sell stuff to people. Imagine if the Cover of time had an article where the headline was "Scientists say we occasionally have a snowy and cold winter. Dramatic stuff indeed.

      Now for ridiculous claims. Very few of the imminent climate doom claims have been put out by people who aren't paying attention, the equivalent of healthy food marketing.

      But somehow that stuff gets translated to "In the 1970's all scientists first believe that we were in a new Ice age, then they all changed their minds and they all said we were going to be dead by the year 2000." Oddly enough, the same people often talk about the controversy in science, seamlessly shifting between the monolithic scientist meme, and the controversy as suits their argument.

      An example not in the weather field is that many young earth creationists use the Piltdown man hoax to discredit all of science. The logic is Piltdown was a hoax, so the earth was created by the Abrahamic god in 4004 B.C.(E)

      We can't say today that some food or substance is unhealthy and we should avoid eating it, but then a few years from now say it's healthy, and in fact we need to eat more of it.

      If you ask a nutritionist, most will tell you that you need a balanced diet, one with sufficient protein and carb mix, and amounts of vitamins and minerals. Its remarkably boring. And while there have been some changes over the years, most of what you are objecting to

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    14. Re:We scientists must improve our reliability. by bjdevil66 · · Score: 2

      Peer reviewed is better than privately funded and vouched for with good marketing (and a wink).

    15. Re:We scientists must improve our reliability. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      > On that note in 2050 people will be talking about the good old days of 2017 when we could solve just about anything with "one weird trick

      When kids of the future go to roleplay as us, One Wierd Trickster will be an archetype available to add to your Level 20 Intertard.

    16. Re:We scientists must improve our reliability. by Straumli+Perversion · · Score: 1

      The covers might be fake (why the hell do people do this?), but there was a story entitled Another Ice Age in Time Magazine dated June 24, 1974.

      It might have been nice if they had mentioned this.

      FTA: "Whatever the cause of the cooling trend, its effects could be extremely serious, if not catastrophic. Scientists figure that only a 1% decrease in the amount of sunlight hitting the earths surface could tip the climatic balance, and cool the planet enough to send it sliding down the road to another ice age within only a few hundred years."

    17. Re:We scientists must improve our reliability. by TheNarrator · · Score: 1

      The saturated fat thing was started as a response to the big Malthusian freakout of the early 1970s. The science was settled, according to Paul Erlich, author of The Population Bomb, and many others, we were all going to starve to death. Something had to be done to convince people that eating meat was terribly unhealthy in order to save the planet. So what's in meat and not in a vegetarian diet? Saturated fat! So the science was constructed by Ancil Keyes with the end in mind and all the data points that didn't fit the narrative were dropped from his correlational studies and the guy who wrote "Pure White and Deadly" warning about the dangers of sugar consumption was blackballed. It's as simple as that.

    18. Re:We scientists must improve our reliability. by randallman · · Score: 2

      The only information I see coming out saying that "peer review is sort of a joke" is from propaganda artists like Limbaugh, Hannity, etc in their attempt to discredit real science where is conflicts with their narratives (global warming is a Hoax). People aren't perfect and neither is peer review, but it's a really good process and certainly not "sort of a joke". Also, I can't believe someone made this comment on Slashdot and got modded 5.

    19. Re:We scientists must improve our reliability. by barbariccow · · Score: 1

      Science goes where the money is...

    20. Re:We scientists must improve our reliability. by budgenator · · Score: 1

      How do you know?

      We fucked up the ozone layer.

      The first time we saw the ozone hole was the first time we looked, the first time we had the technology to see it. The truth is, we are just assuming that there ever was a time when the Ozone Hole didn't exist. It's just as likely the Ozone Hole exists because it always existed.

      We've filled the ocean with plastic and oil.

      Who's We, you got a mouse in your pocket?

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    21. Re:We scientists must improve our reliability. by desdinova+216 · · Score: 1

      I vaguely remember (because I was in Elementary School) talk about another ice age in the mid-late 70's

    22. Re:We scientists must improve our reliability. by Sumus+Semper+Una · · Score: 1

      Each time we contradict ourselves publicly by making untested or untestable statements we only serve to make our research, our methods, our philosophy, and our entire field look like a joke.

      FTFY. Do you honestly think that scientists (by whom I am assuming you mean people applying the scientific method to their field of research) are the ones making bold claims with no data to back them up? Or is it people who find tests that have been done for other reasons, retroactively apply a hypothesis they'd like to promote, and publicize that hypothesis as fact?

      Let's be very clear here. Scientists did not claim a damn thing in this article. "Experts" looked at other people's work and decided that they needed to tell everyone that what they think it means is a scientific fact. This is analogous (in more ways than you'd think) to pundits going on television to promote their opinions under the guise of "journalism". That's not journalism, and this isn't science. That some people don't seem to understand that there is a difference is, to me, the bigger problem.

    23. Re:We scientists must improve our reliability. by serviscope_minor · · Score: 2

      One article in the popular press is not science having a credibility problem. Extrapolating that to "science is crap let's believe radio talk show hosts" is humanity having an idiot problem.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    24. Re:We scientists must improve our reliability. by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Thanks - that kind of explains why I wasn't aware of the "global cooling" thing until the anti-science PR machine got going some time after 2000.

    25. Re: We scientists must improve our reliability. by RespekMyAthorati · · Score: 1

      Everything you eat (fat, sugar, alcohol, acids etc) has an impact on each other, the French classical diet of "du vin, du pain et du Boursin" (wine, bread and cheese or alcohol, gluten and fat) does not result in fat Frenchmen even though every doctor will tell you it will blow you up like a balloon.

      I image the typical Frenchman gets a lot more exercise than the typical American, and very seldom "supersizes" a meal.

    26. Re:We scientists must improve our reliability. by RespekMyAthorati · · Score: 1

      I wonder how many people who complain about peer-reviewed scientific articles have ever read one.

    27. Re:We scientists must improve our reliability. by RespekMyAthorati · · Score: 1

      And Florida will be under water by 2005.

      They were just being optimistic.

    28. Re:We scientists must improve our reliability. by peawormsworth · · Score: 1

      Democracy is not a joke, but what we got up here is "fake democracy" and a joker.

  6. "popular belief"??? by ooloorie · · Score: 5, Informative

    That's pretty rich, given that government guidelines have been saying for years that saturated fat is bad:

    Saturated fat can increase the risk of developing cardiovascular disease.

    The worst part isn't even that they falsely identified saturated fats as bad, but that for years governments told people to eat a low-fat, high-carb diet, which is pretty much a prescription for weight gain and diabetes.

    1. Re:"popular belief"??? by moronikos · · Score: 1

      Guidelines in the US have said the same thing. It's only "popular" because the government and "science" has been telling us this for years.

    2. Re: "popular belief"??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      They also told you to exercise, which caused thousands of deaths, especially after the invention of cell phones.

    3. Re: "popular belief"??? by FrankHaynes · · Score: 1

      Well, yeah. When you're staring at the very, very latest reply to your Snapchat video it's tough to notice the 18-wheeler that's about to splatter you into road pizza as you jog across the road.

      --
      slashdot: A failed experiment.
    4. Re:"popular belief"??? by Carewolf · · Score: 1, Informative

      That's pretty rich, given that government guidelines have been saying for years that saturated fat is bad:

      Saturated fat can increase the risk of developing cardiovascular disease.

      The worst part isn't even that they falsely identified saturated fats as bad, but that for years governments told people to eat a low-fat, high-carb diet, which is pretty much a prescription for weight gain and diabetes.

      Considering this new research (not by experts, but singular, one controversial expert shill) is complete bunk, it might have been good thing to advise people to do what is good for them.

    5. Re:"popular belief"??? by phantomfive · · Score: 1
      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    6. Re:"popular belief"??? by slashrio · · Score: 2

      So you missed the three meta-studies mentioned in some post above?

      --
      "Trump!!", the new Godwin.
    7. Re:"popular belief"??? by Xyrus · · Score: 1

      No, sitting on your ass and eating far more calories than you need to sustain said sedentary lifestyle is a prescription for weight gain and all the other problems that go with it. The calorie (or more precisely, kilocalorie) is a measurement of energy. It doesn't matter if it's coming from carbs, protein, or fat. A calorie is a calorie.

      I'm tired of all these idiotic "diets" that tell you to eat this and not eat that and by MAGIC you'll be slim trim and healthy. You can not beat the laws of thermodynamics and conservation of energy. It doesn't matter where your calories come from. If you aren't burning more calories than you take in, you're going to put on weight. Period. End of fucking story.

      That being said, other side effects from what you eat need to be considered. You can get your daily calories from a well balanced diet or by eating a cup of Crisco. From an energy perspective, your body doesn't care. But saturated fats, cholesterol, and all that other crap can and does affect your body. So you can be slim and trim, and still be a cheeseburger away from a heart attack if you've been stuffing yourself with nothing but grease all your life.

      BTW, an editorial from a group of rejects funded by big beef probably isn't the best source of unbiased research.

      --
      ~X~
    8. Re:"popular belief"??? by Bongo · · Score: 3, Interesting

      All else being equal, maybe it is wise to label someone a shill. But this "low fat" thing has been getting severely criticised for a good ten years now. Even the president of the World Heart Federation, Professor Salim Yusuf, has switched sides. Various people/experts have done the work of looking into what the lipid hypothesis was based on, actually, all those decades ago, and how it became dogma. If you want to call someone shill, it is probably the original people who recommended low-fat (it benefitted the sugar and cereals industry).

      Here are just a few of the controversial, but likely correct, quotes of Professor Salim Yusuf:

      “Above 40% carb we see a steep increase in CHD risk. Fats are protective.”
      “Contrary to common belief the current recommendation to reduce saturated fat has no scientific basis.”
      “You must have heard of the book Big Fat Surprise by Nina Teicholz. She shook up the nutrition world. But she got it right.”

    9. Re:"popular belief"??? by John+Napkintosh · · Score: 1

      This is a decent strategy if you're active. Since carbs are the preferred fuel of your muscles, it would make sense to consume carbs over fats as the primary energy source. Doubly so considering the number of calories per gram of fat, as you'd also be limiting your calorie intake.

      --

      Long signatures suck.
    10. Re:"popular belief"??? by ooloorie · · Score: 1

      Nobody knows whether it's bad or not. In fact, right now, it seems like it depends on your genetic makeup and other factors. That is "what is a good diet for human beings" isn't even a meaningful question.

      What is crystal clear is that government dietary guidelines for the past 50 years were based on bad science, even if they are accidentally right on something. What's also crystal clear is that government dietary guidelines were heavily influenced by industry lobbying.

    11. Re:"popular belief"??? by ooloorie · · Score: 1

      This is a decent strategy if you're active. Since carbs are the preferred fuel of your muscles, it would make sense to consume carbs over fats as the primary energy source.

      If by "active" you mean "olympic athlete before a competition". For almost everybody else, running out of fuel is not a problem, since good nutrition is more important than running another mile. But keeping your glycogen storage full all the time is a pretty sure way of gaining weight.

      Doubly so considering the number of calories per gram of fat, as you'd also be limiting your calorie intake.

      People eat until their brain gets a signal that they are full. High carb diets actually tend to cause people to overeat; the lower energy density of carbs is irrelevant because satiety isn't primarily determined by quantity.

      The very idea of governmental dietary guidelines for the population is stupid. The guideline should be "people are different; experiment and pay attention to what works".

    12. Re:"popular belief"??? by ooloorie · · Score: 1

      No, sitting on your ass and eating far more calories than you need to sustain said sedentary lifestyle is a prescription for weight gain and all the other problems that go with it. The calorie (or more precisely, kilocalorie) is a measurement of energy. It doesn't matter if it's coming from carbs, protein, or fat. A calorie is a calorie.

      You're wrongly assuming there that caloric intake is an independent variable. But caloric intake and activity depend on what you eat and your physiological state, and they are nearly impossible to override through calorie counting and exercise targets. So, if you eat some kinds of food, you'll tend to eat more calories and be less active than when you eat other kinds of food. Calories are not all equal because people aren't simple chemical reactors that you feed with a fixed mass of nutrients every day.

      BTW, an editorial from a group of rejects funded by big beef probably isn't the best source of unbiased research.

      That's irrelevant in this case, because it's a simple fact that US governmental dietary guidelines don't work. How do we know? We look at obesity rates.

      In addition, worrying about whether research is "unbiased" is just a sophisticated form of ad hominem; it doesn't matter whether research is biased, what matters is whether it is correct. In fact, I expect most correct research is done by people who are highly biased in favor of the outcome they found (that's what it takes to persist in science), but have the integrity not to defraud people.

    13. Re:"popular belief"??? by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Well you definitely make clear your own personal beliefs haha.
      "What is a good diet for human beings" is definitely a meaningful question.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    14. Re:"popular belief"??? by RespekMyAthorati · · Score: 1

      That's irrelevant in this case, because it's a simple fact that US governmental dietary guidelines don't work. How do we know? We look at obesity rates.

      But that doesn't take into account that over the last 50 years, Americans have become lazy, self-indulgent pigs.

  7. I often think dietary "science" is a myth by moronikos · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ... or at least a religion. In no other field can I find so much contradictory information and research. On the one hand you have Dr. Barnard saying fat is of the devil and on the other hand you have Dr. Eades saying it is perfectly fine. We used to fry foods in lard and tallow (saturated fats). Then the dietary scientists said that was going to kill us so we had to switch to non-saturated fats. Then the dietary scientists said that the trans fats that they recommended were worse than the saturated fats.

    In the 80s and 90s the fat phobic nutritionists and diet gurus said that any kind of fat more than 10% of your total intake of calories was bad for you and they had "medical studies" to back it up. They said it was fat that made us fat. They came on TV and scared moms and the food industry started removing fat from their products. Now, the fat content of many foods is much less. But guess what? We are fatter than ever. They replaced the fat with sugar and other carbohydrates and said that the science showed that was ok because it is not carbohydrates that make us fat, but it is fat. Again, we are fatter than ever. Who is thinner than Americans? Well, practically everyone except Mexicans and Samoans. Who is thinner? Well, the French are. What do they eat? A lot more fat in their diets than us. Asians are thinner too and they supposedly eat a lot of rice which is a lot of carbs.

    Hi fat is killing us--we have studies proving...

    No it's high carbs that are killing us--we have studies proving...
    No it's ...

    Stop drinking that sugary soda, it's bad for your health. Drink a diet soda instead...oh, it will give you alzheimers...

    Stop drinking coffee, the caffeine is bad for you--we have studies. Instead, drink coffee for your health because it contains lots of flavonoids--we have studies.

    If you're a guy...maybe we should figure out the diets of guys like Mick Jagger and Anthony Quinn who fathered kids past the age of 70. For Jagger, maybe it's all the cocaine and other drugs... got to say that it's depressing being 52 and the plumbing not working like it used to.

    1. Re:I often think dietary "science" is a myth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      If you are 52, it is probably time to trade in your 50 year old wife for a pair of 25s. That'll get the plumbing working again.

    2. Re:I often think dietary "science" is a myth by amiga3D · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Maybe just ignore all the crap and eat a balanced diet. Not too much of any one thing and exercise a little now and then. All things in moderation. My Grandfather ate lots of fats for his entire life and lived to be 90 in excellent health all but the last 3 years. Of course he worked his ass off farming so he burned that stuff up. He also ate lots of greens and everything else under the sun. If you sit on the couch eating potato chips and watching Ungrateful Bitches of Atlanta then sure, you're probably going to get heart disease and die.

    3. Re: I often think dietary "science" is a myth by cyber-vandal · · Score: 1

      Computers, the internet, space travel, GPS, Large Hadrin Collider, road network etc etc

    4. Re:I often think dietary "science" is a myth by whoever57 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The medical fields is an extreme offender here though, probably dues to hugely inflated egos as additional problem.

      I think it is due to misplaced beliefs by doctors that they have been trained as scientists and that they understand statistics.

      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    5. Re:I often think dietary "science" is a myth by Kokuyo · · Score: 1

      Going by the name of the show you mention, I'm not sure whether it's more to do with sitting on the couch, the things you eat or your subconscious using suicide to get away from the shit you're exposing your brain to ;).

    6. Re: I often think dietary "science" is a myth by ravenshrike · · Score: 1

      That's all engineering progress.

    7. Re:I often think dietary "science" is a myth by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      Arrhenius wasn't a government scientist the last time I checked. Some of the other things don't seem to make sense either.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    8. Re:I often think dietary "science" is a myth by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      You eat people who play the bagpipes at sunrise? Or do you eat at sunrise people who play the bagpipes? Your comment doesn't seem to be very clear on that.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    9. Re:I often think dietary "science" is a myth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Who's Balanced diet?
      USDA HTML Images All of the USDA postings are from special interests, many by food marketing people.
      UK NHS Eating a balanced diet
      wikipedia HTML Images
      JapanDietary guidelines for Japanese (Japanese: ), Basic Law on Shokuiku
      or traditional japan dietJapanese Traditional 5 color diet
      Or do you follow the latest fad - seems like a personal choice. I prefer to vary my diet and not over do highly processed foods,

    10. Re:I often think dietary "science" is a myth by Aighearach · · Score: 2

      There is nothing contradictory in soda being bad, and then "diet" soda also being bad.

      Water is still good, 100% juice is still good. Always was.

    11. Re:I often think dietary "science" is a myth by gweihir · · Score: 4, Informative

      Quite possibly that as well. MDs are not scientists. That requires an actual PhD.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    12. Re:I often think dietary "science" is a myth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      In no other field can I find so much contradictory information and research.

      Clearly you are not familiar with economics.

    13. Re:I often think dietary "science" is a myth by judoguy · · Score: 2

      100% juice is still good. Always was.

      Not really true. Very little difference in a Coke and apple juice. Really. One apples worth of juice, not too bad but worse than just eating the apple.

      A 16 oz glass of apple juice can have as many as 12 apples. Taken as one huge sugar hit to the system.

      Not good for you in any way. Just sugar water from apples instead of corn syrup.

      --
      Peace is easy to achieve, just surrender. Liberty is much harder get/keep.
    14. Re:I often think dietary "science" is a myth by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      No, you're wrong. Water was always considered good, 100% juice was always considered good.

      If you can't understand it and get confused just by mixing in an example of over-eating, which is a different issue, there is no solution for that.

      Mainstream dietary advice does not tell you to limit fruits and vegetables. Your wild theory that the sugars in juice is the same as sugar water made from corn syrup is just pap that you got from the sugar lobby, it was not and is not part of mainstream dietary advice.

    15. Re:I often think dietary "science" is a myth by robkeeney · · Score: 1

      Are you really that dumb? The sugar in fruit juice is fructose, the same sugar as in the corn syrup used to make soda (and the same as in agave nectar).

    16. Re:I often think dietary "science" is a myth by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Well, it is just yourself you want to convince, sure. But for others, you sort-of have to have demonstrated skills and that is where the PhD comes in. After all, you cannot just call yourself a surgeon or a pilot or the like either. Well, you can, but it will be meaningless. Although almost all self-styled "scientists" have no clue what they are doing and due to Dunning-Kruger are in addition unable to see that. The scientific method is a bit more involved than most people realize and that includes some pretty smart people. For example, "following the scientific method" is necessary but not sufficient. And even that part is actually pretty difficult to do and takes a lot of different forms. A single life is too short to find out all that by yourself.

      Hence assuming that somebody without a PhD is not a scientist is a pretty safe bet.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    17. Re:I often think dietary "science" is a myth by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      Yes, I really am so dumb that I was able to understand that fruit juice is not the same as water with corn syrup added.

      You swallowed some propaganda, and now you go around questioning of the intelligence of anybody with more or better information than you.

      If you think about, (yes, yes, I understand, you won't) that attitude leaves you unable to ever correct false ideas you hold, because anybody with more knowledge is just an idiot to you.

      For your next trick, you'll start blathering about Chemistry, even though chemists already know that fruit juice is different than corn syrup. You won't be able to comprehend that, because you don't understand that the listing of sugars on the label doesn't actually list all the different forms in the plant; the list is just a proxy. Furthermore, you'll fail to understand that it is known to medical nutritionists that fruit juice creates a different set of affects in the body when consumed as pure juice than it does when the same amount of processed fructose is eaten. The processed fructose is one of the worst forms of sugar to eat, it has considerably worse healthy effects than processed sucrose, and yet when eaten as fruit or fruit juice it is not associated with the same bodily responses. Why? That is still not settled. What is known for sure right now is that fruit juice is not corn syrup water, in chemistry or in bodily response.

    18. Re:I often think dietary "science" is a myth by robkeeney · · Score: 1

      You seem to be of the belief that drinking unlimited amounts of fruit juice will have no negative health outcomes, which is prima facie moronic. The science on how the body deals with fructose vs. sucrose is pretty well understood. The bodily response to drinking corn syrup water is very similar to drinking the same volume of fruit juice at the same sugar concentration level-- same insulin spike, etc. You seem to be the one who swallowed the propaganda, probably with a big glass of apple juice.

    19. Re:I often think dietary "science" is a myth by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      You're an idiot.

      Traditional nutrition advice does not limit fruit or fruit juice consumption.

      It does limit total calories.

      If you were capable of applying logic, you'd understand that I already said I was referring to traditional mainstream dietary advice, which has not changed on any of those points.

      If you look at traditional advice, sweets (including sugar water) are recommended to be very limited. Less than a serving in some cases, or "0-2" in other cases. Whereas fruit juice can represent all your fruit servings. If you're also eating the recommended number of vegetable, grain, and meat/protein servings, you can eat all the rest of the recommended calories as fruit and that is totally OK by these recommendations. Whereas, with soda or candy it is telling you to limit consumption, and it doesn't count toward fruits or vegetables.

      No, I'm not the one who swallowed propaganda. Yes, I can operate using multiple constraints on the same data set in the same series of evaluations. No, you were not able to do so. Sad, really.

      BTW, your original theory that drinking fruit juice and drinking corn syrup have the same effect on insulin levels is funny. You should look that one up, because you might find that others have had that idea before and some of them did studies to check. There are a wide variety of long-chain carbs in most fruit juices, and they affect digestion of the rest. It is not all the same, different chemicals are different. Fruit and fruit juice contain vastly more compounds than we've even isolated, much less established the affects of on digestion. What is known is that: whole fruit and fruit juice have the same affects on the body as each other, and that processed sugars (even when removed from fruit) are much more harmful. Clearly the presence of undetermined water-soluble nutrients in the fruit aids in healthy digestion.

      Basics are only basic if you understand them.

    20. Re:I often think dietary "science" is a myth by robkeeney · · Score: 1

      You're right, I am an idiot. I argued with a moron on /.

    21. Re:I often think dietary "science" is a myth by PrimaryConsult · · Score: 1

      Some say 100% apple juice is worse than soda.

      As someone who doesn't give a fuck, it's amusing to see everyone argue about what food is healthy or not. Just eat whatever you want, there'll be some study to back it up, and chances are the lower stress you feel regarding something you do 3x a day will do more for your health than any diet.

    22. Re:I often think dietary "science" is a myth by HiThere · · Score: 1

      There is a significant difference. Fizzy drinks chemically dissolve the teeth as well as feeding bacteria who do the same thing a lot more slowly.

      Cokes are worse than fruit juice, and, unless you are on certain medications, unsweetened grapefruit juice (made from white rather than pink grapefruit) is probably good for you...in moderation.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    23. Re:I often think dietary "science" is a myth by amiga3D · · Score: 1

      Someone once told me if it comes in a box or bag from the store avoid it. That might be a little broad but it might be a good rule of thumb.

    24. Re:I often think dietary "science" is a myth by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      My doctor said in no uncertain terms that I am not allowed to drink fruit juice, because the sugar content is way to high, I can have two pieces of fruit a day. But a glass of fruit juice is like having 6 pieces of fruit in one glass.

      Bingo! You've exceeded your five a day at breakfast time, and can concentrate on burgers and pizza for the rest of the day.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    25. Re: I often think dietary "science" is a myth by cyber-vandal · · Score: 1

      Who paid for them again?

  8. Sleeper by RoccamOccam · · Score: 1

    Just as Woody Allen predicted: https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

  9. Clickbait premise by MrKrillls · · Score: 3, Informative

    Cherry picked data can prove the moon is made of green cheese: arstechnica.com/science/2017/04/experts-headline-grabbing-editorial-on-saturated-fats-bizarre-misleading

    --
    Don't step on the baby.
  10. More bunk media-hyped "science?" by Hugh+Jorgen · · Score: 1

    It's a screwed up society in which we live where "scientist" falsify or out right lie to fuel an agenda, often funded by corporations and their lobbyists. We're all going to die. Fuck it, do what makes you happy as long as it does not infringe on others. Want an oreo, fucking eat it! Want a big gulp in NYC, fucking drinking it and flip the bird to socialist fear mongers.

  11. Re: Current claim by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 5, Funny

    I only eat free range sugar and non-conflict butter.

    --
    #DeleteChrome
  12. Re:Don't get your health advice from Newspaper art by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 2

    While the submitted Slashdot story is highly suspect, I would also assume an ersatz science commentary posted to LinkedIn should be ignored with great prejudice.

    --
    #DeleteChrome
  13. Not this shit again... by XSportSeeker · · Score: 5, Informative

    What's with Slashdot and the recent unbalanced biased snippets that are being posted all the time?
    If you are going to publish a story about something, why not post both sides?

    From the article:
    Leading the the (sic) critics was Professor Alun Hughes, associate director of the Medical Research Council Unit for Lifelong Health and Ageing at University College London.

    He said: "This editorial is muddled and adds to confusion on a contentious topic. The authors present no really new evidence, misrepresent some existing evidence, and fail to adequately acknowledge the limitations in the evidence that they use to support their point of view."
    Dr Mike Knapton, associate medical director at the British Heart Foundation, said the claims about saturated fat were "unhelpful and misleading".

    He added: "Decades of research have proved that a diet rich in saturated fat increases 'bad' LDL cholesterol in your blood, which puts you at greater risk of a heart attack or stroke."
    Dr Amitava Banerjee, honorary consultant cardiologist at University College London, said: "Unfortunately, the authors have reported evidence simplistically and selectively".

    His view was echoed by cardiologist Dr Gavin Sandercock, director of research at the University of Essex, who said: "This editorial is not founded on good evidence. There is no such thing as 'real food' - the authors don't define what it is so it's meaningless."

    Here's another take:
    http://edition.cnn.com/2017/04...

    1. Re:Not this shit again... by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      If you are going to publish a story about something, why not post both sides?

      That's what the comment section is for.

  14. Re:The saturated fate myth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    You forgot why the shift to grain was considered important. Dr. Kellogg believed it would reduce masturbation, so he made his cereal and did everything he could to change breakfast from a meat/egg/bacon base to a grain base. He also pushed for and successful got American's genital mutilation industry up and running. It didn't take too long to get burning the clitoral hood off with acid labeled as a crime against humanity, but sadly we're still working on the corresponding treatment on males being outlawed (circumcision). The only goal of both procedures and the breakfast cereal was to reduce masturbation. Other reasons were later invented.

    It's amazing how the aversion to sex has shaped the world.

  15. Meanwhile choline... by TheSync · · Score: 1

    "[Volunteers] given an oral choline supplement for 2 months have a more than tenfold increase in trimethylamine N-oxide (TMAO), a metabolite derived from the gut microbiota that has previously been linked to the development of cardiovascular disease.

    The increase in plasma TMAO levels is also associated with a corresponding increase in platelet aggregation."

    "aspirin attenuated the rise in TMAO levels as well as reduced platelet hyperresponsiveness"

    1. Re:Meanwhile choline... by RespekMyAthorati · · Score: 1

      Uh, therefore?

  16. News Flash! by sims+2 · · Score: 2

    Experts Are Crackpots, Experts Say.

    --
    Minimum threshold fixed. Thanks!
  17. Re:The saturated fate myth by Dog-Cow · · Score: 1, Offtopic

    As a circumcised male, I hardly find the claim that the presence, or lack there-of, of the foreskin encourages or discourages masturbation.

  18. About time! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Anyone here heard of John Yudkin? British scientist who was saying pretty much this in the 1970's - see https://goo.gl/vIR4Ju. Also more recently Robert Lustig: https://goo.gl/XBEQ3l Both rather long but well worth taking in. Sadly this was all known about years ago, but one way and another it was successfully suppressed. The constant, but wrong, message over the last 40 years to reduce fat intake has had and continues to have disastrous consequences.

  19. This study was flawed... by exigentsky · · Score: 1

    and incapable of truly deriving the conclusion it suggests. An explanation of a similar study can be found here: https://nutritionfacts.org/vid...

    Dietary science isn't as contradictory as it seems. A lot of industry-sponsored science just tries to manufacture doubt in order to make it harder for consumers to be decisive in their dietary choices.

  20. Re: Lick my balls, MILLENIAL BeauHD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    Until some years ago nearly everyone believed that plaque forms due to high cholesterol levels in the blood. Therefore the simplified saying that the cholesterol blocks the arteries

  21. This isn't new by TheConway · · Score: 2

    There has never been sufficient evidence that eating fat clogs your arteries, aside from the logical conclusion that 'it makes sense'. I watched a lecture last year where this was being said, and the lecturer wasn't giving out new information. This is all left over fallout from the Ansel Keys (spelling) Seven Nation Study that was essentially debunked as soon as it was released.

  22. Re: Lick my balls, MILLENIAL BeauHD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Dir sir:

    In which universe do you exist where fat and cholesterol are the same material?

    42. And watch me be modded up for it too.

  23. Re:The saturated fate myth by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 2

    That's because you haven't seen us here in Europe masturbate like there's no tomorrow yet.

    --
    Ezekiel 23:20
  24. The stents do actually work by PsyMan · · Score: 2

    As someone who suffered a heart attack in 2014 at the age of 45 due to clogged arterys and subsequently suffered 6 cardiac arrests on the way to and in the hospital (I still have the paddle burns to prove it) I can confirm that so far the stent they had to fit to allow my heart to continue working does appear to be doing its job. I was informed at the time that the main contributor to the artery clogging was smoking so I gave up there and then. As much as everyone would love to have a diet that required no excercise to keep healthy I think that is only available in a coma or stasis, the rest of us really need to think about what we eat and excersise enough to burn it off and stay fit. Stop being told what to and what not to eat and simply use a little common sense.... oh and stop smoking, it really is pointless.

    1. Re:The stents do actually work by dwywit · · Score: 1

      My GP said that stopping smoking was the biggest factor in reducing my cardiovascular risk profile, even though I subsequently put on 10 kilos in 6 months. He said (being an ex-smoker himself), that if you're going to smoke - and of course you should *never* start, but if you're going to do it, quit by your 50th birthday. At that point, your body still has the capacity to heal the damage, and he's quite pleased with the sound of my lungs now, four years since my last cigarette. If you keep smoking after 50, it's all downhill - you keep doing damage, and lose the ability to heal it.

      --
      They sentenced me to twenty years of boredom
  25. Re:The saturated fate myth by Aighearach · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'll give you the secret: Foreskin means you don't need lube. Anybody with a foreskin can simply hold it in place and compare, but a person without it can't make that comparison. There is a huge difference in functionality.

    This is why historically when circumcision was done by adult males it was a big act of religious devotion. You're giving up a major part of the hedonistic pleasures of life. This is also why it is done to children; in hopes they will grow to be more pious.

  26. Michael Phelps diet by ThatNakedGuy · · Score: 1

    It really doesnt matter what you eat. All diet fads are bullshit.
    The important thing is burning off what you consume. Farmer John could eat lots of fat and meat then work the fields for 12 hours, and be thin and healthy. But if Desk Jockey Julie does that she'll weigh 400 pounds and be sick.Common sense.
    Swimmer Michael Phelps ate 12,000 calories a day, consisting of fried-egg sandwiches, cheese, lettuce, tomatoes, fried onions, mayonnaise, coffee, omelets, grits, french toast, powdered sugar, pancakes, pasta, ham, 2,000 calories worth of energy drinks, and pizza.
    I'm no doctor, but he seems pretty healthy.

    1. Re:Michael Phelps diet by slew · · Score: 1

      It really doesnt matter what you eat. All diet fads are bullshit.

      The important thing is burning off what you consume. Farmer John could eat lots of fat and meat then work the fields for 12 hours, and be thin and healthy. But if Desk Jockey Julie does that she'll weigh 400 pounds and be sick.Common sense.

      Swimmer Michael Phelps ate 12,000 calories a day, consisting of fried-egg sandwiches, cheese, lettuce, tomatoes, fried onions, mayonnaise, coffee, omelets, grits, french toast, powdered sugar, pancakes, pasta, ham, 2,000 calories worth of energy drinks, and pizza.

      I'm no doctor, but he seems pretty healthy.

      Maybe Michael Phelps' isn't the best example here.

      As to the extreme nature of his diet, he's a known pot head and has been diagnosed with ADHD so who knows what part of the calorie consumption is cause and effect (some drugs that are used to treat ADHD are basically stimulants)... As to "health", he also is a recovering alcoholic and likely suffers from Marfan Syndrome...

      Of course he does burn a lot of calories, but most people aren't training for the olympics (nor does Mr. Phelps eat that much anymore since '08 and now that he is older, and he never at that much unless he was actively training). Given all that, I don't think he's anywhere near the center of any bell curve that is relevant to other people's metabolism...

      Besides, the relationship between weight and calories is complex. What specific foods you eat and the schedule that you consume food can greatly effect this relationship (as with the standard obvious stuff like metabolic rate)...

  27. I would not call this a "belief" by gatkinso · · Score: 2

    This notion was firmly implanted by education health classes, media, and medical professionals for decades.

    --
    I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
  28. Re:Lick my balls, MILLENIAL BeauHD by Chewbacon · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The belief is diets high in fat contribute to coronary artery disease, not necessarily because fat floats in the blood stream and sticks to your arteries.

    Evidence suggests there are actually a lot of mechanisms at work there. Hypertension causes arteries to harden, salt may exacerbate this. Genetics are an underrated contributor. A cardiologist had explained to me some people are just more genetically predisposed for atheroma than others as he was cathing the coronaries of a former fighter pilot, now airliner pilot, in excellent health who ultimately needed coronary artery bypass grafting. This pilot had excellent HDL and LDL levels, no history of high blood pressure, just chest pain. His father had a heart attack before the age of 55: premature coronary artery disease.

    Biggest problem is the high mortality of post MI patients even with stents. We don't want to talk about it, but it is almost a dirty secret about stents and MI that kills a lot of people. Why would we? It would make having an MI sound like a death sentence despite medical advances. They can die for a myriad of reasons: heart failure or in-stent re-stenosis. Post-MI sudden death can be due to ventricular arrhythmia that has NOTHING to do with the stent, but because of surviving, yet sick, cells in an area of MI scar.

    My point? It is still not fully understood. We have a lot of indicators in evidence that do a good job, but more work has to be done.

    --
    Chewbacon
    The Bible is like Wikipedia: written by a bunch of people and verifiable by questionable sources.
  29. Re: Lick my balls, MILLENIAL BeauHD by burtosis · · Score: 1

    Whew, was afraid it might be C-137

  30. Questioning Dogma and Authority by Ulfilas2000 · · Score: 1

    With all this question authority and the dogma they spout, where will it end? Next thing we know people will be questioning things like whether the Minimum Wage actually helps people...

  31. Cherry-picked data? by QuietLagoon · · Score: 1

    It appears that the study used cherry-picked data to achieve the results they wanted. So the question lingers, who wanted the study to come out in the way it did?

  32. Settled Science... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    ...is never really settled, it seems.

    Hey! What about the huge consensus about fatty foods over the last 30 years?

  33. 22 minutes by DarthVain · · Score: 1

    Although 22 minutes seems like an awfully specific number so it must be true!

    It is also the exact same time of a TV show minus commercials... coincidence? I think not!

    Anyway I think common sense is more insightful that a lot of the rhetoric.
    I've always subscribed that butter was better for you than margarine. I mean come on.

    As for sugar, I've always thought that was by far the more dangerous dietary issue.
    Bodies just not built to handle the amount of refined stuff we pump into it on a regular basis these days and it is hard to avoid.
    As the saying goes, everything in moderation.

  34. This has been life changing for me by ArhcAngel · · Score: 1

    I have a long time friend who has been harping on the benefits of a low carb, high fat (LCHF) diet for over a year now. As skeptical as I am I dismissed him since he was selling a product that purported to induce ketosis (when the brain switches from sugar/carb for fuel to fats). After watching friend after friend start losing weight and proclaiming how much better they feel now I decided it was at least worth trying. That was a little over a month ago and I have lost 20 lbs. But even if I hadn't lost a single pound I would stick to this new lifestyle. The mental clarity and increased energy is amazing. And I haven't slept this well in years! I highly recommend it. The science behind it is solid and contradicts what we've been told for decades. Hopefully more doctors will do their due diligence and start helping their patients make the switch.

    --
    "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." - K
  35. Re:Maybe it's the arachidonic acid by davebtown9 · · Score: 2

    Dr Mike Knapton, associate medical director at the British Heart Foundation, said the claims about saturated fat were "unhelpful and misleading".He added: "Decades of research have proved that a diet rich in saturated fat increases 'bad' LDL cholesterol in your blood, which puts you at greater risk of a heart attack or stroke." Knapton states a fact coupled with an assumption. It's a fact that three chain lengths of saturated fat (12, 14, and 16) raise LDL cholesterol somewhat. http://ajcn.nutrition.org/cont... It is also a fact that 18 carbon chain stearic acid, which has no affect on LDL cholesterol levels is the most prominent fatty acid in unstable arterial plaques. http://circgenetics.ahajournal... I mention unstable arterial plaques because of this. "Numerous studies have demonstrated that coronary atherosclerosis affects all eutherian animals with a body mass comparable to or larger than humans, regardless of diet specialization and LDL levels. Surprisingly, in these mammals, lipid accumulations in arterial walls were more common in herbivores than carnivores." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/p... So the debate should not be about LDL levels. It should center on what causes plaque build up and what generates unstable plaques. It's peculiar that nobody mentions mercury toxicity. Quite likely mercury toxicity contributed significantly to heart attack risk among middle aged men during the first half of the 20th Century. "Mercury activates phospholipase A2 (PLA-2) which increases the risk for coronary artery and cerebral plaque rupture with MI and CVA. In addition, mercury induces formation of arachidonic acid metabolites such as total prostaglandins, thromboxane B2 and 8 isoprostane in vascular endothelial cells and activates vascular endothelial cell phospholipase D. Even very low levels of chronic mercury exposure promote endothelial dysfunction (ED) as a result of increased inflammation, oxidative stress, immune dysfunction, reduced oxidative defense, reduction in nitric oxide (NO) bioavailability. Many of the cardiovascular consequences of mercury are mitigated by concomitant intake of fish containing omega 3 fatty acids and by the intake of selenium. All of these pathobiological findings will increase the risk of hypertension, CHD, MI, CVD and CVA." https://www.esciencecentral.or... Note the mention of arachidonic acid metabolites. Why it that important? "Arachidonic acid (AA) in the diet can be efficiently absorbed and incorporated into tissue membranes, resulting in an increased production of thromboxane A2 by platelets and increased ex vivo platelet aggregability. Results from previous studies have shown that AA is concentrated in the membrane phospholipids of lean meats." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/p... "The highest level of AA in lean meat was in duck (99 mg/100 g), whereas pork fat had the highest concentration for the visible fats (180 mg/100 g). The lean portions of beef and lamb contained the higher levels of n-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFA) compared with white meats which were high in AA and low in n-3 PUFA. The present data indicate that the visible meat fat can make a contribution to dietary intake of AA, particularly for consumers with high intakes of fat from pork or poultry meat." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/p... It is unfortunate that scientists debating the saturated fat issue ignore endocannabinoid system (ECS) research. "We now know that major changes have taken place in the food supply over the last 100years, when food technology and modern agriculture led to enormous production of vegetable oils high in -6 fatty acids, and changed a

  36. Re: The saturated fate myth by jenningsthecat · · Score: 2

    You can't compare before and after with your sample size of one...

    One? It may be small, but it's not THAT small!

    --
    'The Economy' is a giant Ponzi scheme whose most pitiable suckers are the youngest among us and the yet-unborn.
  37. Just ask Dr. Lustig by h4x0t · · Score: 1

    The bitter truth is a nice 90 min lecture that touches the topic. Biochemistry and all.

    Summary:
    Fructose, and therefore sucrose, generates fat in the liver and blocks leptin recognition in the brain. Avoid all sugared beverages, and avoid products containing added sugar.

  38. Good luck with that by zerofoo · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Nutrition information and guidelines are bad due to the LACK of scientific rigor in the supporting studies.

    The lack of rigor isn't due to some vast conspiracy - it's just really hard to perform controlled experiments on large groups of people with regard to diet and lifestyle.

    Does anyone here want to volunteer to be locked in a room for a few years while a group of researchers strictly controls what you eat, when you exercise, and how often you sleep?

    Worse still, does anyone want to volunteer to be the control group that gets little to none of those things?

    I'm afraid correlation studies are the best we can do here.

  39. This is ridiculous! by friesofdoom · · Score: 1

    "They said relative levels of "good" cholesterol, or high density lipoprotein (HDL), were a better predictor of heart disease risk than levels of low density lipoprotein (LDL), also known as "bad" cholesterol. High consumption of foods rich in saturated fat such as butter, cakes and fatty meat has been shown to increase blood levels of LDL."

    "relative levels of 'good' cholesterol" means, the ratio of 'good' to 'bad' cholesterol, which doctors have known for ages... my doctor has been telling me this for a decade. Then the next sentence confirms what everyone knows, 'bad' foods increase 'bad' cholesterol, and hence worsen the ratio of 'good' to 'bad' cholesterol. How can they then conclude that 'bad' cholesterol isn't bad for you? It's insane...

    1. Re:This is ridiculous! by minstrelmike · · Score: 1

      It's not insane. It's looking at _both_sides. Right now, the fad is to decrease all cholesterol, but decrease the worst stuff mainly. since the worst stuff tastes worse than the good low cholesterols, you end up cutting fat but making the relative percentages of cholesterols worse instead of better. Think about it without getting angry first.

    2. Re:This is ridiculous! by friesofdoom · · Score: 1

      Re-read what I wrote, because...

      1. You said the same thing that I did, albeit in a less thorough and thought out manner, and completely ignored the flaws that I'm trying to point out in the summary/article. Good job!
      2. Nothing in what I wrote indicates that I am angry, having the opinion that something is insane is not the same as being angry.
      3. As I said, my doctor has been telling me this for a decade, so its not new information.
      4. Donno what fad you're talking about, must be among dumb people, as if you read 3. above, my doctor has been telling me this for a decade.
      5. The problem IS related to 'bad' cholesterol, it is still a variable in the equation, just because there are other variables does not make this one invalid. The impression that this summary is giving is that 'bad' cholesterol doesn't even factor into the equation, when it clearly does.

  40. how many people have died from this lie? by flappinbooger · · Score: 1

    How many people got in trouble by following a high fat AND high sugar diet, AKA the Western Diet, and then were told by their cardiologists that "you need to follow a low fat diet, low cholesterol and low salt" and then died of stroke and other problems because the human brain is MADE OF FAT AND CHOLESTEROL and our cells rely on salt?

    Come on, this is a disaster. They were fattening people up like feed lot cattle for decades. A bowl of raisin bran cereal has the same glycemic index as a can of pepsi. (or coke, if that's your brand). But that box of raisin bran has a "heart healthy" logo doesn't it?

    There needs to be lawsuits. How many of our grandparents and parents were killed by this lie?

    People who go "low carb" or at least avoid blatant and hidden sugars but eat high fat foods see improvements in blood pressure, cholesterol ratios, weight, triglycerides and blood sugar levels.

    --
    Flappinbooger isn't my real name
  41. Only Partially True by Neuronwelder · · Score: 1

    While some say you can eat a stick of butter and nothing will happen to your arteries. (I wouldn't try that much a day myself..) If you mix the butter with sugar the rules are thrown out the window, and plaque is created. You can't eat any sugar with fat. Sad part is, in restaurants and snacks, they mix those 2 ingredients and salt. Ends up being and addictive combo.

  42. Re:Current claim by denis-The-menace · · Score: 1

    There's a video called: "Sugar: the bitter truth."

    My take:
    -Sugar and HFCS are virtually the same thing (bad)
    -Glucose is the body's NATURAL sugar. Processed in your stomach.
    -Fructose is processed by the liver because your body sees it as a poison. (Just like alcohol)
    -Fructose is alcohol without the buzz
    -Fructose with Fiber (aka real fruit) Good because of the fiber
    -Fructose w/o Fiber (aka fruit juice) Bad (Fructose tells you body you ate nothing, so you eat more)

    Meanwhile many studies are coming out that say ANY artificial sweetener is bad for you

    --
    Obama's legacy: (N)othing (S)ecure (A)nywhere and (T)error (S)imulation (A)dministration
  43. So eat those donuts cops and truckers! by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

    It's not the donuts that are killing you, it's the stress of your jobs.

    --
    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
  44. ZOMG, the corn and sugar industry must hurry by filesiteguy · · Score: 1

    Otherwise people will eventually find out that sugar, not fat, makes people fat.

    This is news?

  45. People really need to educate themselves... by gosand · · Score: 5, Insightful

    THIS is why science is important. The whole "eat less" or "eat less fat" or "exercise more" or "" needs to stop. There is actual science behind our bodies and how they work, but so many people are just looking for the quick answer. Empty your cup, forget what you know, and look at what the science tells you. That include doctors as well, they need to get back to science and rely less on what they were taught in medical school 50 years ago.

    My father just had two stents put into one artery - it was 99 percent blocked and 50 percent blocked in another area. He is in his 70s, and has always been in pretty good health. I asked him to find out what his cholesterol levels were from the tests, and they were exactly what I expected - they were great. Just as they had been his whole life.

    For four years now I have been following a paleo/primal diet. I have never felt better! I lost some weight and haven't even had to think about it since. That wasn't my goal, as I was about 173 at the time, I am right at 160 now, and have dipped to 155. I have learned so much about cholesterol, fat, and diet even though I thought I knew a lot before. I've read books by Mark Sisson, Gary Taubes, and some others, as well as articles/talks by Dr. Peter Attia. Attia had some really in-depth blog posts on cholesterol that were very enlightening, and his vimeo video on the limits of scientific evidence is really great. The other thing to be aware of around artery "hardening" is with oxidation. It's not really cholesterol clogging your arteries, it's is more like your arterial walls thickening, oxidizing and lesioning, and your body repairing them. So not clogging, more like spackling. :)

    My diet has essentially been no calorie restrictions at all, but no grains (included corn) or grain based products (including oils, and beer), extremely low sugar, low carb, no legumes or legume products (soybean/peanuts), and high saturated fat. The only thing in my bloodwork that didn't improve drastically was my cholesterol. It is still high. However, what I've learned is that isn't a bad thing! My father has always had low cholesterol, and my mother's is high. After his near miss this year, my mother got a battery of tests too - she has no significant blockages, with her cholesterol nearing and sometimes over 300! They've tried to put her on meds, but they make her ill.

    A couple of years ago I tracked what I ate for a week. Daily I was 2258 calories, 54 grams carbs (18 were sugars), and 186 grams of fat.
    I have wanted to write down all of my experiences with this over the last few years. I know that this is all heresay and circumstantial, but to ME it's relevant and real. Here are some of the benefits I had:
    - no nagging joint pain (less inflammation)
    - skin was better (same)
    - no bloating or tired feeling after eating - EVER
    - no craving for sweets or that "blood sugar" high
    - my teeth are better - I still brush and floss, but my semi-annual cleaning takes about 10 minutes.
    - better lung capacity
        -- there is a story here that I still find hard to believe. At the time I started this, we had a swimming pool (I lived in AZ). Every year when I first got in the pool in the spring, I would attempt to swim down and back under water. I could usually do it, but sometimes not. I started this diet in November, and when it got to May/June it was time to go swimming again. I went down, and back... and wasn't even wanting for air, so I went DOWN again. So 50% better than I had ever done before. And when I came up, I wasn't gasping either. I was baffled, and still am quite frankly. I think it has to do with less inflammation, and that my body overall is just more efficient because it's fighting less and less against what grains/carbs do you our bodies.

    It's really about health. I had to break my body's physical addiction to the blood sugar roller coaster. Once that was done (about 3 weeks) it's effortless, and I am healthier for it. I am in my upper 40s, and have a 32" waist. I didn't consider myself unhealthy before, but I can feel a difference and it's all better.

    --

    My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.

    1. Re:People really need to educate themselves... by arnott · · Score: 1

      Am in a similar path. I have lost 10 lbs in 2 months, planning to loose 15-20 lbs more. Paleo is good. Does your dad have Type 2 diabetes ? My dad has T-2 and has stents put in too. Am trying to get him to eat less carbs and switch to Paleo as much as possible. But is not easy.

    2. Re: People really need to educate themselves... by arnott · · Score: 1
    3. Re:People really need to educate themselves... by gosand · · Score: 1

      Nope, doesn't have diabetes, he quit drinking 15 years ago, and isn't overweight.

      The biggest hurdle is the mental one, where they feel they are being deprived of something. (They ARE - bad stuff) And there really is a physical addiction too. I know people who are trying too, and they are "cutting back". I found that I had to attack it 100% for the first month, and after that it was very easy.

      --

      My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.

    4. Re: People really need to educate themselves... by gosand · · Score: 1

      I cook all the time. Here are some off the top of my head.

      I don't eat breakfast, just black coffee. If I do on weekends, it's some form of eggs/bacon/sausage.

      Lunch - mixed greens salad, (arugula, kale, romaine, chard, etc), homemade dressing (5 parts olive oil, 1 part balsamic, or 6 parts olive oil, 1 part lemon juice), parmesan cheese... some turkey/ham/salami slices, cheese. 2 hard boiled eggs. (put them in water, bring to a boil, boil for 4 min, put on lid and take off heat, let sit for 10 min). Maybe some large curd cottage cheese sometimes. Dill pickles.

      Had one of my favorites last night for dinner
      Cook up some italian sausage. When it's done, remove the sausage and any excess grease, add some mushrooms and olive oil on med-high heat, when they are about half-cooked, throw in some garlic. After it is good and warmed up, pour in some half-n-half (or heavy cream)... let that bubble and cook, then add in a handful of raw spinach leaves and toss them a little until they start to wilt. Add in parmesan cheese to thicken some. Add the sausage back in and mix it up. Spoon onto plate. I like to serve it with some tomatoes, and zucchini (cut in half lenthwise, pour olive oil over them, salt, pepper, and parmesan and cook @ 425 until just past firm). Glass of red wine.

      Other mains... omelettes/frittata/quiche (no crust) for dinner is always a fave. Seasoned and grilled chicken wings. Chicken thighs (crock pot) with green salsa, cheese, sour cream, lime, cilantro, avacodo, tomato served in a bowl. Burgers, sausage, fish, mealoaf (I use parmesan instead of breadcrumbs). Meatballs and homemade tomato sauce over zucchini sliced ribbon thin and dropped in boiling water for about 30 seconds. Tuna (can use regular mayo, or they have avocado mayo) served in romaine lettuce leaves. We order pizza - and just eat the toppings. If you go out, some places will serve burgers/sandwiches in lettuce wraps.

      Sides: Kale (sauteed in olive oil and garlic, pour in chicken broth, lid, and let cook on med-low for about 15 minutes, salt/pepper), mashed sweet potatoes (not often) in butter and cream. zucchini, salad greens, carrots, peas and green beans on occasion, cauliflower, broccoli. Whatever veggies you like really, as long as they aren't really starchy.

      --

      My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.

    5. Re:People really need to educate themselves... by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

      I had a similar experience recently, but with diabetes: three months ago blood glucose was 310-450, A1C 10.5. I've yet to do my second fasting test (playing phone tag with doctor's office) but according to my Accu-Chek Connect cloud service, I've been under 160 for two weeks and my A1C should be in the 5.5 range now.

      Metformin and a paleo diet is what did it.

      What a shock it will be next week when I finally get that 2nd blood test and go to see my insurance company's required diabetic support group for the first time.

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
  46. Re:My BS detector is going off like crazy by slew · · Score: 1

    Gee, without a stent I would be dead since your coronary collapses and without it your heart dies.
    So I guess I and other stent recipients are alive for some other reason such as __ fill in the blank.

    __LUCK__

    Unfortunately, a stent is often kind of a stopgap which can be used in some situations to attempt to avoid bypass surgery. Your cardiologist should have told you that stents are primarily inserted to provide symptomatic relief from angina and chest pain related to coronary artery disease and blocked arteries. Medical studies like this one have not shown that they actual reduce the rate of Myocardial Infarction (aka heart attacks).

    Also, long term studies of stents show that 35-40% suffer restenosis (a bit better with a drug-eluting stent). The jury is out if a stent will actually save your life in the future or not relative to this risk.

  47. the moderation gap by epine · · Score: 1

    Almost any controlled diet (short of rice-cakes and water) improves health outcomes over what people eat when they're paying less attention.

    Almost every controlled diet excludes most of the same extremely suspect foods (high-fructose bonbons, anything out of the smokey, rarely replenished deep-fat frier from hell).

    It probably is true that inflammation is the underlying malady. High LDL levels probably exacerbate the negative effects of inflammation. Refined-carbohydrate–rich diets combined with a sedentary lifestyle are known to be inflammatory.

    As I recall, studies of hard-working farmers who ate six eggs a day (with bacon) and not much sugar haven't shown unusually high rates of coronary heart disease. Thus I've begun to suspect that the problem comes from overloading the metabolism on two axes at the same time (lipids and carbohydrates) while also tying one-hand to the sedentary-lifestyle bed post.

    In paleolithic times, it was possible to gorge yourself (from time to time) on one food group or another (bananas or bison), but rarely both at the same time (and certainly not without taking a long hike at some point either before, during, or afterwards, plus there's no shortage of labour involved in harvesting a side of bison with a stone axe, or spending an entire day climbing banana trees). These days we hang around in coffee shops playing chess, and the forty-move time control rarely elapses without inducing yet another mocha frappe and a "small" serving of cheesecake (it sure looks small beside that sugary 20-ounce drink).

    It seems like any one of three corrective actions: elimination of excess sugar (rice cakes are 100% sugar), elimination of excess fat, or a vigorous physical lifestyle has an enormously beneficial effect. I suspect that any change will do, just so long as your metabolism is not confronting the triple-risk zone on a regular basis.

    Of course, if they convince you to stay out of all three risk zones at the same time (carbs from green vegetables only, no animal fat, high exercise) your risk of crossing through the triple-risk zone at any point in time goes almost to zero. I tend to think of that as the belt and suspenders and sneakers approach. Or, if you convince someone to achieve a half-hearted three days of out seven compliance on each of those, he or she is probably mostly out of the weeds, as well.

    Evolution tends to make us pretty adaptive. Two out of three stress factors poses only a moderate problem. Three out of three stress factors (a condition almost impossible to achieve in our evolutionary history) and now you have a big problem.

    Pure approach to at-worst two-out-of-three:

    * farming with ox and plow (always work hard, eat whatever you damn well want)
    * total elimination of refined carbs (it's not easy to get or stay fat on this diet, unless you've already got metabolic syndrome)
    * total elimination of animal fat (combining balanced nutrition with a green lifestyle is now your biggest challenge; almond production requires six-times more water than industrial chicken meat, per delivered ounce)

    Impure approach to mostly at-worst two-out-of-three:

    * vigorous exercise two days a week (with sustained spurts of 8-10 METs, ya lazy yoga-pant moron)
    * complete elimination of sugary beverages (requires moderation of alcohol, too)
    * plenty of animal fat, but not in the form of steak and cheesecake dinners (bad fat+ sugar), or all-you-can-eat fettuccine Alfredo buffets (also bad-fat Hoover Dam + sugar Niagara)

    Of course, in any controlled study, interventions that ask for the moon have more margin for non-compliance, and that effect will definitely be measured, and found statistically significant.

    That doesn't mean that impure moderation doesn't provide 80% of the benefits for 20% of the religious conviction.

    But our research is never geared to tell us this.

    1. Re:the moderation gap by subnomine · · Score: 1

      Problem: people eat too much and they are lazy
      Solution: eat smaller portions and exercise

      Science: Let's figure this shit out! People need to maximize their intake of Cokes and bags of Cheetos. That's a worthy goal!

    2. Re:the moderation gap by cwsumner · · Score: 1

      Problem: people eat too much and they are lazy
      Solution: eat smaller portions and exercise ...

      By George, I think you've got it! 8-)

  48. That's what *you* think real food is. by HiThere · · Score: 1

    That's what *you* think real food is, but what did the authors of the study mean by it? They're the ones that need to define it as they're the ones reporting on its effects.

    --

    I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
  49. Re:The saturated fate myth by LunaticTippy · · Score: 1

    There are probably people who masturbate by putting cereal inside their foreskin. Kellogg would be spinning in his grave.

    --
    Man, you really need that seminar!
  50. Re:Current claim by tehcyder · · Score: 1

    The current claim being "sugar is bad".

    I remember 20 years ago, nutritionists proclaiming "fat is bad", so everyone switched to sugar. I'm glad I didn't climb on that bandwagon.

    I've never heard anyone say "eat more sugar to be healthy" in my life.

    --
    To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it