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Leaked 'Standing Rock' Documents Reveal Invasive Counterterrorism Measures (theintercept.com)

An anonymous reader writes: "A shadowy international mercenary and security firm known as TigerSwan targeted the movement opposed to the Dakota Access Pipeline with military-style counterterrorism measures," reports The Intercept, decrying "the fusion of public and private intelligence operations." Saying the private firm started as a war-on-terror contractor for the U.S. military and State Department, the site details "sweeping and invasive" surveillance of protesters, citing over 100 documents leaked by one of the firm's contractors.

The documents show TigerSwan even havested information about the protesters from social media, and "provide extensive evidence of aerial surveillance and radio eavesdropping, as well as infiltration of camps and activist circles... The leaked materials not only highlight TigerSwan's militaristic approach to protecting its client's interests but also the company's profit-driven imperative to portray the nonviolent water protector movement as unpredictable and menacing enough to justify the continued need for extraordinary security measures... Internal TigerSwan communications describe the movement as 'an ideologically driven insurgency with a strong religious component' and compare the anti-pipeline water protectors to jihadist fighters."

The Intercept reports that recently "the company's role has expanded to include the surveillance of activist networks marginally related to the pipeline, with TigerSwan agents monitoring 'anti-Trump' protests from Chicago to Washington, D.C., as well as warning its client of growing dissent around other pipelines across the country." They also report that TigerSwan "has operated without a license in North Dakota for the entirety of the pipeline security operation."

169 of 310 comments (clear)

  1. Priorities by Pikoro · · Score: 5, Insightful

    And this is legal how? Yet, don't copy that floppy or you'll get 10 years in a FPMITA prison.

    --
    "Freedom in the USA is not the ability to do what you want. It is the ability to stop others from doing what THEY want"
    1. Re: Priorities by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      So the protesters were collaborating with local police, deploying surveillance drones, and providing intelligence breifings? Wtf are you talking about?

    2. Re: Priorities by quonset · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Many of the protesters, like my roommate, were paid

      Of course they were. And Santa Claus helped as well since it's his off season.

      This is like listening to RT or the lies coming out of Putin's mouth. Any time anyone disagrees with the government confiscating people's lands they're suddenly "subversive" or an "NGO" whose sole job is to take down the government.

      The amount of disinformation is staggering and the worst part is the uneducated deplorables who voted for the con artist believe it.

    3. Re: Priorities by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 2

      It's not about who was paid, but about the actions being perpetrated. Did the protestors engage in anything illegal? What about TigerSwan?

      --
      If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
    4. Re: Priorities by ScentCone · · Score: 4, Informative

      Did the protestors engage in anything illegal?

      Yes. We don't even have to get into the gigantic mountain of trash they left once they weather turned and they went home. They trespassed repeatedly, blocked public roads - plenty of illegal things. But because they were well funded and backed by know-nothing celebrities, the usual get-yourself-arrested stuff wasn't worth the trouble to prosecute. It was obvious they were going to pull an Occupy Everything and wander off when it became inconvenient to stay. But other people still had to spend weeks cleaning up after them and trucking off their trash and abandoned dogs.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    5. Re: Priorities by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 4, Interesting

      That sounds a lot like what we call "public insubordination" around here, nothing terrible. Don't get me wrong, I don't know anything about the rights and wrongs around this particular pipeline, but in case of local protests against infrastructural projects I almost invariably find myself opposed to the protestors after weighing the pros and cons. Not a fan of tree-huggers... especially "professional" ones. But it sure sounds like whatever TigerSwan got up to is a real concern for any liberty-minded citizen, even if what they did turns out to be technically legal, and even if they happen to be on the right side of this issue.

      --
      If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
    6. Re: Priorities by PopeRatzo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      They trespassed repeatedly, blocked public roads - plenty of illegal things.

      It's all their land.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    7. Re: Priorities by dbIII · · Score: 5, Insightful

      gigantic mountain of trash ... trespassed

      Ah - then unconstitutional search and seizure is fully justified in protecting the motherland komrade - carry on.

    8. Re: Priorities by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      RT covering the Standing Rock protests in a positive light, dummy. In fact RT aligns with most "Green Party" crap, which is why the DNC/RNC hate it.

    9. Re: Priorities by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      No, actually, the ACLU has fought for the KKK to get parade permits.

    10. Re: Priorities by interkin3tic · · Score: 5, Funny

      Citation needed, because my roommate says no they weren't paid. He also says your roommate was paid to do a cheap smear job on people who legitimately were upset about climate change and polluting the water of an Indian reservation. He is currently fighting your roommate and your roommate is crying and pissing his pants and is sincerely sorry he was such a douchebag. However both our roommates know your roommate is still a douchebag and will probably go right back to spreading misinformation for the right wing.

      Source: my other roommate says so.

    11. Re: Priorities by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      No, actually, the ACLU has fought for the KKK to get parade permits.

      The ACLU should fight for American Civil Liberties. It is in the name. Their work is even more precious now than ever. Civil liberties does not mean just protecting causes you like.

      Where Trump and his ilk can never ever be forgiven is not a freedom of speech or protest issue. He has the freedom of speech. His supporters have the right to protest and all the rest. We dare not take either away.

      What can not and must not ever be forgiven is the attack on truth and the press and all rational voices of reason. To Trump nothing matters but winning. How doesn't matter. The subject matter doesn't matter. Do you think he cares about health care, that it is the cause of his life? Please, he doesn't appear to care at all beyond using it as a piggy bank to finance tax cuts that likely benefit himself disproportionately.

      He manipulated the media to keep their eyes on him. He treated his much more qualified opponents like children by calling them childish names, and wouldn't you know it, I think almost every attack he made was something he himself was guilty of. Lying Ted. Crooked Hillary. He frequently and repeatedly accused experts of being complete and total morons, while saying only he knew the secret plan, and people bought it and still buy it. Hell a guy just body slammed a reporter and many of Trump's supporters think that is just and right.

      Many seek the Road Map to Peace for the Israel Palestine conflict, but make no mistake people, with Trump we have our own Journey and I rather fear it will be more like a Nature Trail to Hell. Trump's bravado has already failed on North Korea, and if anything actually accelerated their efforts. That alone is an almost unsolvable problem. Bravado won't fix it. Our invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan probably precipitated their faster development. A military solution might be required. The key is to somehow make China comfortable with a reunited Korea and then maybe announce a plan to take back the land over a period of 30 years or something and I have no idea how to do that. If you could manage that, then If every move was careful, and you didn't threaten North Korea's current leaders you might survive a game of brinkmanship, maybe, but I sure as hell would not want a President Trump involved in such a mess. I'd rather have any of the other republicans first, well except Cruz. Clinton would also have worked.

      Seriously, problems on the scale of North Korea are what our president _Must_ handle, and this guy just isn't qualified or capable. Twitter seems the extent of his talent. You can't just make a deal with North Korea since they are not trustworthly, or at the very least any deal must be heavy on the verify.

      Hell, even if the US could make a deal with North Korea or any part of the world, it is nearly impossible now that we have Don the Con as president. Seriously, unless it is backed up with legislation from the Congress, who is going to trust us? One of the main German newspapers is calling for his impeachment and the new leader of the free world Angela Merkel has just said he can't be trusted.

      The _only_ chance he has to salvage his presidency is to somehow have some epiphany, then turn over his taxes and all the rest and start cooperating with the investigations fully. If he did that and just stopped lying, the American people would probably forgive him and reelect him. We are stupid like that.

    12. Re: Priorities by youngone · · Score: 5, Informative
      This kind of thing has been SOP for the US Government for a very long time, after all, it's how Pinkerton got going.

      Anytime Americans have taken a stance that conflicts with the status quo, there has been violence:

      The Haymarket Riot is just one of many occasions the US Government in it's many forms has used violence against workers.

    13. Re: Priorities by Pseudonym · · Score: 1

      Who paid him or her?

      (Note that professional coordinators are a different issue. Effective protests often need expertise these days. There is a difference between paying people to organise and paying people to show up. That's true no matter what side you're on.)

      --
      sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f(q{sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f});
    14. Re: Priorities by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It's legal because posting on a public facebook or twitter feed is public information.

    15. Re: Priorities by Pseudonym · · Score: 5, Informative

      In case anyone didn't read that story: It doesn't claim that "many of the protesters were proven to be paid". It claims that the organisers accepted donations.

      Professional organisation is completely normal on all sides of politics. People are paid to organise both pro-Trump and anti-Trump rallies because they are complex events which require professional expertise to pull off successfully. This is especially true if you're doing it 100% legally, where there are regulations and permits to take care of. As protests scale up, you need people who know what they are doing. That's the nature of the beast.

      This is not even remotely the same thing as paying people just to show up.

      --
      sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f(q{sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f});
    16. Re: Priorities by youngone · · Score: 2
      Not a bad comment A/C, except for the middle bit about North Korea and Palestine.

      The fact that you think a military solution might be the answer in North Korea says a lot about the US attitude towards the rest of the world. There is no way China would allow any of that.

      You are completely right about how Trump got himself elected. The rest of the world is still wondering how that could have happened.

    17. Re: Priorities by ScentCone · · Score: 1, Offtopic

      What? The GP asked if the protesters broke laws. They did. Mentioning their giant pile of trash simply goes to their hypocrisy, that's all.

      And if you were REALLY worried about constitutional matters, you'd be talking about last week's report about the FISA court's scathing rebuke of the Obama administration's funneling of NSA-collected surveillance of US citizens through the FBI to third parties, without any warrants or other court cover. I know, just because the court told them specifically to stop that and how to be compliant, and that the Obama administration blew that off, it's OK because that wasn't a private security company dealing with externally funded trespassers trying to shut down a business's legal activity.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    18. Re: Priorities by hawkeyeMI · · Score: 1

      Mod. Parent. Up.

      --
      Error 404 - Sig Not Found
    19. Re: Priorities by ooloorie · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Ah - then unconstitutional search and seizure is fully justified in protecting the motherland komrade - carry on.

      TFA is about a private company. Private companies cannot engage in "unconstitutional search and seizure" because they can't engage in "search and seizure" at all; that's a right reserved to the government.

      Private companies do have a constitutional right to "harvest information about the protesters from social media", engage in "aerial surveillance and radio eavesdropping", and "infiltrate camps and activist circles" (as long as they don't violate private property rights or break into computer systems illegally).

      Those are rights that we have because we live in a free society. People like you have not yet succeeded turning the US into a totalitarian state, much as you may want to, "komrade".

    20. Re: Priorities by DaHat · · Score: 1

      What an interesting absolutist blanket statement... No doubt you have similar iron clad evidence to support this claim.

    21. Re: Priorities by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Would I ruin your blind tribalism if I agreed with you about Obama's over-reach and letting rouge agencies run wild? Well I do agree with you on that, but two wrongs don't make a right so you are going to have to actually THINK instead of some sort of childish sandpit argument about some other kid being bad first.

    22. Re: Priorities by dbIII · · Score: 2

      Being harrassed by Pinkertons who are employed to fight free speech doesn't sound very free to me.

    23. Re: Priorities by quantaman · · Score: 1

      Many of the protesters, like my roommate, were paid and had professionals help coordinate their actions, so why would it be illegal for the other side to do the same.

      An AC said it so it must be true!

      --
      I stole this Sig
    24. Re: Priorities by sycodon · · Score: 1

      They're fighting for what is right so the people working for the corporations shouldn't be allowed the same rights.
      The protestors (sic) are on the right side so it should be legal for them to but not legal for the other side.

      Did I stumble across the fucking Onion dressed up as Slashdot?

      Are you fucking kidding me?

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    25. Re: Priorities by Pseudonym · · Score: 1

      It would surprise me if any protestors were being paid just to show up. It would not surprise me if people were being paid to help organise the logistics of the protest, because that is a requirement for any sufficiently large protest today.

      --
      sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f(q{sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f});
    26. Re: Priorities by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I don't get how you can process those last two paragraphs without realizing the utter oxymoron you wrote. You're literally advocating for a totalitarian state, and then blaming someone else for advocating for a totalitarian state. And you throw in "free society", when what you described sounds like fucking Nazi Germany.

      Proof that even right wing libertarians are extremely authoritarian. Right wing ideology hinges on authoritarianism; it is literally the difference between the right and the left nowadays.

    27. Re: Priorities by shilly · · Score: 2

      Before you go lecturing other people, you might want to be more careful with your language. Governments don't have rights, they have *powers*. It is humans that have rights.

    28. Re: Priorities by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Your roommate has access to military hardware and military training in counter intelligence? Damn, those protesters really are better organized than I gave them credit!

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    29. Re: Priorities by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      That works for any ideology that's entrenched in its dogma and impervious to logic and reason.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    30. Re: Priorities by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Legal means nothing. It's legal in North Korea to be locked up for saying li'l Kim is an idiot.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    31. Re: Priorities by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Because laws are made by people. If those people are assholes, upholding those laws support a bad cause.

      For reference, see Germany 1934-1945.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    32. Re:Priorities by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Do it to your average political party assembly.

      See whether it's considered illegal.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    33. Re: Priorities by Reverend+Green · · Score: 1

      Companies have rights too! Who will think of the companies?

    34. Re: Priorities by Reverend+Green · · Score: 1

      Sounds like only paid protest is lawful protest

    35. Re: Priorities by bickerdyke · · Score: 1

      I think almost every attack he made was something he himself was guilty of. Lying Ted. Crooked Hillary

      He treated his much more qualified opponents like children by calling them childish names,

      And now...

      now that we have Don the Con as president.

      While I kinda like that nickname, you should refrain from using childish names if you're blaming someone for doing the same thing....

      --
      bickerdyke
    36. Re: Priorities by bickerdyke · · Score: 2

      And still the last commenter didn't suggest that you should listen to anything RT is "reporting".

      Propagands doesn't become true just because it supports your viewpoint. And even if some propaganda outlet reports something that is true, that doesn't make them a credible source for it.

      --
      bickerdyke
    37. Re: Priorities by Highdude702 · · Score: 1

      Go home Imgur cat. You're drunk!

    38. Re: Priorities by Highdude702 · · Score: 1

      cremier is that you?

    39. Re:Priorities by dwillden · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It's legal because TigerSwan was not operating on behalf of the government. The Constitution and the Bill of Rights restrict the actions of the government and of private companies and individuals acting on behalf of the government.

      TigerSwan was acting on behalf of the Pipeline company, which having invested large sums and built nearly the entire pipeline before this even became an issue, had a right to try to protect their operations and investment from protestors trying to damage their operations and equipment. TigerSwan broke no laws in their collection of information about potential threats to their employer's equipment, personnel and operations.

      Such a security company would of course be in contact with police agencies. I would be more concerned had they been operating without such contacts. The fact that they are passing information about what they are observing and their actions, indicates that they were concerned about not stepping across the line into illegal actions.

      If someone can point to documents showing where the government agencies (local, state or federal) tasked them to collect such information then we have crossed into illegal actions. But all this "report" states is that they coordinated with law enforcement which means they provided information about what they were doing and seeing. Unless tasked to collect the information (thus making them an agent of the government) they are free to collect any information they so choose (as long as the collection method is not illegal but this article gave no indication of such).

      Disagreeing with the pipeline does not make the pipeline company, or it's security company lawbreakers. Before you claim illegal or unconstitutional activities, you must know what qualifies as such.

      --
      I'm too lazy to compose a creative sig.
    40. Re:Priorities by Megol · · Score: 1

      What exactly shouldn't be legal?

    41. Re: Priorities by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Oh gosh, to mean the left is so terrible as to require open and public documentation of who is seeking to influence the government?

      And then they expect to have the right to comment, criticize, and reject other people whose actions they find objectionable? My word, the horror.

      Why, it is just like the boycott of South Africa over apartheid. Truly, the left is an abomination.

      Of course, the fact that the hypocritical right calls for the firing or arrest of people who disagree with their views, tends to spoil your moral indignation. I've even heard a lot of Trump supporters say that people who oppose him should be deported.

      Yammer all you want, you are just a phony.

    42. Re: Priorities by ScentCone · · Score: 1

      And then I made the conversation about hypocrisy. I see you're immune from such worries.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    43. Re: Priorities by The+Real+Dr+John · · Score: 1

      Paid to protest? Oh sure. Where do I sign up? You are so full of it. Please dear AC tell us all where we can sign up to get paid to protest pipelines. Or did you mean you get paid in cheap hot dogs and bug juice?

      --
      A brain is a terrible thing to waste... Mind? That's debatable.
    44. Re: Priorities by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      >> Did the protestors engage in anything illegal?
      >
      > Yes.

      So did Rosa Parks.

      Fuckwit.

    45. Re: Priorities by ChoosyBeggar · · Score: 1

      Good to know! Since I'm always right, I demand that anybody who opposes me is denied the rights that I enjoy. Done!

    46. Re: Priorities by Entrope · · Score: 2

      The things you mentioned are mechanisms to stop a prosecution. They are not reasons or legal principles to do so. A defendant can't appear in court and demand nolle prosequi. A defendant (or counsel) who even mentioned jury nullification in court would be found in contempt. A defendant moving for judicial dismissal would be told to explain why such dismissal is proper and required.

    47. Re: Priorities by dwillden · · Score: 2

      No it isn't. The pipeline is running through private land, not the reservation. The encampments were illegal invasion of private property, resulted in killing a large number of cattle.

      None of this occurred on tribal lands. It all occurred on Public roads through privately owned farmlands.

      --
      I'm too lazy to compose a creative sig.
    48. Re: Priorities by PopeRatzo · · Score: 2, Informative

      No it isn't. The pipeline is running through private land, not the reservation.

      Memorial Day is a good day to learn something new.

      http://inter-american-law-revi...

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    49. Re: Priorities by ooloorie · · Score: 1

      Companies have rights too! Who will think of the companies?

      No, the owners of companies have rights. Do you think that people should be stripped of their rights just because they get together and do something socially useful?

    50. Re: Priorities by ooloorie · · Score: 1

      We often refer to government powers as "government rights". That's why we talk about, for example, "states' rights". We tend to use the term "power" with government when emphasizing the limits on government power, and we tend to use the term "right" when emphasizing a power that a governmental entity has relative to some other entity. I hope that clears up your confusion.

    51. Re:Priorities by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's legal because TigerSwan was not operating on behalf of the government. The Constitution and the Bill of Rights restrict the actions of the government and of private companies and individuals acting on behalf of the government.

      Absolutely false: nothing in the Bill of Rights prevents the application of fundamental rights against private entities. Claims to the contrary are pure myth. Certain specific items, such as the 1st Amendment, are limited to specific government entities - though even in these cases the 14th Amendment muddies the waters.

      The open-ended items such as the 9th Amendment (unspecified rights retained by the people) and the the 10th Amendment (the part about unspecified rights reserved to the people) are not at all limited to government. One of the most important rights arising here is the right to ethical practice of law, which certainly limits private entities - and nothing prevents the assertion of other rights, such as the right to ethics in business, or the right to privacy with respect to business activities as well as government.

      The Founding Fathers were well aware of the danger posed by private entities to liberty: it was a very important part of the Roman history they studied, and also part of their own lives in the form of companies such as the East India Company.

    52. Re: Priorities by minstrelmike · · Score: 1

      All the policemen were paid. Whining about protestors being paid seems un-Republican and non-Libertarian to me. But of course, logic has no standing against fear and hatred.

    53. Re: Priorities by jvanber · · Score: 2

      I see, you're going to completely discount the possibility that protesters were paid.

      So, it's feasible that the company that has an interest in a multi-billion dollar pipeline hire a para-military organization to demonize protests, but it's not feasible that an even richer company, that currently owns the railroad that presently carries by freight all of the oil over the very same reservation, organize a public-opinion propaganda machine to protect their interest in profits under the auspices of "saving the reservation."

      It's a chess-game of billionaires, so picking a side based on your ideals and beating your chest about it just shows tremendous naiveté. So, which group of billionaires are you rooting for, again?

    54. Re: Priorities by Reverend+Green · · Score: 1

      Oh c'mon, you know that's a bullshit misdirection. No one is proposing to strip any human person of his rights as an individual.

      But an overwhelming majority of people believe companies - as collective entities - have no natural rights, and ought have a severely restricted set of legal rights. I take it you disagree?

    55. Re: Priorities by slashdotwannabe · · Score: 1

      First of all, I call bullshit on your "paid roommate" lie. Paid by who? Cui bono?

      Second of all, protest is protected under the First Amendment. Private security firms are not.

      Third. for all we know, you're a paid troll for TigerSwan.

      --
      This comment is my opinion and does not represent an official position of Donald Trump or others I do not work for
    56. Re: Priorities by ooloorie · · Score: 1

      Oh c'mon, you know that's a bullshit misdirection. No one is proposing to strip any human person of his rights as an individual.

      Presumably, you still believe that I have a right to free speech individually, right? So, I may, say, post something nasty about Trump, right?

      Now let's say I want to run a series of ads against Trump in the local newspaper, but that's more than I can afford. So I ask some friends for money. Do I still have free speech rights in that case, or can the jackboot of government stomp down on me and my friends?

      Now, since Trump is pretty litigious and vain, I worry that if I say something negative about him in an anti-Trump ad, he may sue me and my friends and I may lose my house and my retirement. So, you think the jackboot of government can stomp on me and my friends wanting to exercise our right to free speech because we formed a corporation?

      And if that's what you believe, what about the press? Newspapers are big corporations. Should the Trump administration have the power to throw reporters for the New York Times, CNN, or MSNBC in jail for looking at social media postings by administration officials, looking into their private lives, into their financial connections?

      That's what you're really saying when you're trying to draw a distinction between "rights as an individual" and rights that groups of individuals exercise. You have been duped into supporting totalitarian government, because if rights can only be exercised "as individuals", they are worthless when faced with the massive and collective power of government.

    57. Re: Priorities by shilly · · Score: 2

      When "we" use the word "rights" about governments, we are being "stupid dickheads who fail to understand basic political concepts", even if we can find "historical precedent" in the words of "slave-owning racist assholes from the Civil War era" or make spurious and completely circular distinctions between "power being about the limits of government power, whereas rights are about government powers cf another body". I hope that clears things up for you.

    58. Re: Priorities by ooloorie · · Score: 1

      I hope that clears things up for you.

      Totally: I see that you have nothing substantive to say and no rational counterargument, so instead you engage in empty semantic disputes.

    59. Re: Priorities by dbIII · · Score: 1

      rogue

      Good point - it should be red as rogue.

    60. Re: Priorities by Pseudonym · · Score: 1

      It's more a question of scaling and what politicians call "optics". Beyond a certain scale, you need professional help if you want your protest to present a coherent message.

      --
      sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f(q{sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f});
    61. Re: Priorities by ooloorie · · Score: 1

      Sorry, ooloorie, but your defense of them is still misplaced.

      The post you are responding to isn't mine.

      But your analogy is bullshit anyway. The actions that TigerSwan was described as having engaged in above are legal, for anybody. I'm not defending "them", I am defending those rights, rights that everybody has and everybody ought to have.

    62. Re: Priorities by ooloorie · · Score: 1

      But yes, these restrictions do exist, it's part of the contract

      Yes, and the parties to those contracts can enforce them against each other. How does that give the government any additional powers to restrict the speech or freedom of association or freedom of movement of those parties?

      I suggest you revise your argumentation

      I suggest you think for half a minute before making such illogical arguments.

    63. Re: Priorities by Entrope · · Score: 1

      I have not implied that the criminal actions should be ignored or excused, so it is frankly silly for you to expect me to name reasons to ignore or excuse them. If you want anyone to take that idea seriously, maybe you should give us reasons to do so.

    64. Re: Priorities by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      The police were paid to enforce the law. Do you seriously see that as being equivalent to protesters being paid to disrupt a construction project and ham it up for the news crews?

    65. Re: Priorities by Reverend+Green · · Score: 1

      Naw dude, you're making a gross mischaracterization.

      The vast majority believe corporations have no natural rights and ought have rather fewer legal rights than they currently enjoy. This is quite different from believing "yay, let's censor everything!"

      I understand you feel that restriction of corporate rights may lead, as a second or third order effect, to restriction of traditional capitalist modes of news publishing. We can even put aside the question of whether this type of publishing organization, systemically biased towards the interests of big money as it is, operates more as a propaganda organ for those interests than as a news outlet.

      What I hope you will see is that there is no direct, obvious, and inevitable connection between the policy of reducing corporate rights and the outcome of (more) censored news reporting. You may sincerely believe in your model that predicts that outcome; but the majority do not share that belief. In fact many people see excessive corporate rights creating an economic and social environment in which the average person enjoys less, not more, freedom.

      Now you're quite right to point out that under our current form of financialist totalitarianism, individual people have only those legal rights for which they can afford to sue in Federal kangaroo court. Which is to say, working people have no rights. Imho this is a very strong argument for reform of the judicial system.

      However I don't see how "it's a great idea give corporations the same (or more!) legal rights as human beings" follows from either a critique of totalitarian financialism, or from a desire to reform the laws and courts. Your argument is a non sequitur.

    66. Re: Priorities by shilly · · Score: 1

      You don't understand the substantive point that there is a distinction worth preserving between the term used to describe the actions the people are willing for a government to do, i.e. powers, and the freedoms a human is due by virtue of their innate worth, i.e. rights?

      You are dimmer than you appear, which is quite the achievement.

    67. Re: Priorities by ooloorie · · Score: 1

      You seem to be advocating a system in which government controls corporations and markets to promote equality and individual rights, government representing the people and in charge of the economy, education, research, retirement, healthcare, etc. It's doubtlessly a popular system that "many people" have desired throughout history, and that has been tried numerous times, in particular in the 20th century.

      What do you think greedy, selfish, and amoral CEOs would do in such a system? Do you think they'll simply let themselves be regulated by government? Of course not. What happens is that they go into government and become government leaders. And now, instead of merely running private corporations, where people at least have the option of not doing business with them, they now control police, courts, and the military, with disastrous results.

      What you advocate is, in fact, totalitarianism, and it doesn't work. Life under a free market system is clearly unfair, and people get hurt, and people can't exercise their rights, but a free market system is still vastly preferable to any of the known alternatives.

    68. Re: Priorities by silentcoder · · Score: 1

      This was not, however, the government.

      This kind of evil has not been limited to the government for a very, very long time.

      --
      Unicode killed the ASCII-art *
    69. Re: Priorities by ooloorie · · Score: 1

      You don't understand the substantive point that there is a distinction worth preserving

      Quite the opposite: I believe the difference between governmental "rights/powers" and human "rights/powers" is so obvious that we don't need to make pedantic distinctions evey time we speak, in particular, when making an analogy between corporate rights and governmental powers, as I was doing.

      and the freedoms a human is due by virtue of their innate worth, i.e. rights

      I don't believe that there is a limited set of "freedoms a human is due by virtue of their innate worth"; that is, I don't believe in limited human rights. Rights are inherently something that is limited, enumerated, and granted. I believe that humans can do whatever they want, except as limited by a small set of enumerated, governmental powers.

      The irony behind your pedantic insistence on the powers/rights distinction is that you don't even understand the point behind it.

    70. Re: Priorities by BCGlorfindel · · Score: 1

      This kind of thing has been SOP for the US Government for a very long time, after all, it's how Pinkerton got going.

      Anytime Americans have taken a stance that conflicts with the status quo, there has been violence:

      The Haymarket Riot is just one of many occasions the US Government in it's many forms has used violence against workers.

      First off, it's not the US government that's really behind the pipeline or the tigerswan operations. That's the work of a privately owned, for personal profit corporation.

      As for "American's" taking a stance, which American's do you mean should be getting the benefit of the doubt here? The protesters? The owners of the private property? The workers that are trying to build the pipeline? You and I aren't seeing the same basic facts and that is making understanding you difficult. Here's the facts as I see them from reading up a fair bit on this for a long time. Please enlighten me to any blind spots or errors I've made in my base understanding here.

      The land on which the pipeline is being built is privately owned by either the company building it, or by people who have made agreements with the company to have the pipeline built.

      The protesters are camping on not only reserve land, but also along the pipeline route which is private property belonging the company or local residents. To be clear, they are unquestionably and undeniably trespassing.

      The protesters are taking other illegal actions to stop the workers for the company from doing their jobs. Blockading public roads and bridges, trespassing on work sites and obstructing the workers, and burning company equipment and buildings.

      Tigerswan's actions from my much quicker overview as they only come across my radar last night appears to have the following as it's 'worst' actions. Flying drones and helicopters over privately owned land and filming activity at the request of the land owners. Paying people to join the protester camps and report back about movements and gather intelligence. Passing this information on to others, including law enforcement. Helping to plan and make recommendations to the company on how to continue to get their work done in spite of the protesters and how to thwart the protesters efforts to stop the work.

      Honestly, the worst picture of Tigerswan so far just seems to be linguisitics and background. The company is predominantly ex-military and the language of their reporting all reflects this by approaching the protesters as an insurrectionist movement and using counter-terrorism and counter-insurgency language throughout. The worst actions that they ever recommend is additional survellience and pressuring police to do more than arrest and immediately release people trespassing and vandalizing private property.

      From the basic facts, if you want to take the tact of arguing for respecting the rights of private property owners as a basic freedom, it is protesters who are actively violating this principle. The pipeline employees, and sub contractors are all just working on the land their employer owns, doing what their employer wants on it and somehow the protesters believe they have the right to interfere with that. On the grounds of private property rights, the protesters are indisputably in the wrong. Now if you want to make arguments about the greater good and environmental harm in the future as reasons that should trump private property rights in this case that argument could be made. However, it is grossly overstating things to act like the private company hasn't a leg to stand on here, nor that the protesters are clearly in the right or protecting the 'people'.

    71. Re: Priorities by shilly · · Score: 1

      Ohhh, I see now. The distinction between rights and powers is pedantic and obvious, rather than a central distinction in political philosophy that has animated both theory and practice for several hundred years.

      And rights are "inherently something that is limited" because you say so, are they? Glad we've cleared all that up.

      Anyway, lovely to chat. Obviously and pedantically, I actually mean "pointless" when I say lovely, but to such a dedicated follower of Humpty Dumpty as yourself, I'm sure you understood correctly the first time.

    72. Re:Priorities by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Those people's kids were Reagan college republicans. It's how it works here. Kids politics are like their music, largely intended to piss off their parents. Except for the suck asses, who imitate their 'rents generation's rebels.

      My question: What will piss off GWAR fans? If one of them ever gets lucky. Has the fetus avoid the hoover. (A: Lawrence Welk listening monarchists?)

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    73. Re: Priorities by Agripa · · Score: 1

      The ACLU should fight for American Civil Liberties. It is in the name. Their work is even more precious now than ever. Civil liberties does not mean just protecting causes you like.

      Except for the 2nd amendment. In that case "the people" means something completely different.

    74. Re: Priorities by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      There are other organizations emphasizing the Second Amendment, and the ACLU has does respect it, although I don't like their interpretation.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    75. Re: Priorities by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      According to people I trust, the police officers were not enforcing the law, but rather conducting illegal and dangerous operations against the protesters.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    76. Re: Priorities by david_thornley · · Score: 2

      There are illegal actions that will not result in convictions for various reasons. Among those are refusal to prosecute, insufficient evidence, and sympathetic judges and juries. Speeding to the hospital is illegal and frequently dangerous. Breaking into houses is criminal, but in practice there will be no prosecution unless the homeowner wants it. People who took marijuana for the best of reasons have wound up behind bars, because it's illegal.

      Illegal actions can be extremely praiseworthy, but they're still illegal.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    77. Re: Priorities by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      I own stock in several companies, which have overall purposes of making and selling stuff. I'm cool with that. However, they make political contributions of corporate money to causes I disagree with, and as a stockholder it feels like they're using my money against me.

      Now, the people who run these companies probably have some serious political disagreements with me, and they have a right to use their money on political donations. No question about that. I question the morality of using corporate funds.

      Obviously, we need to have legal organizations to coordinate people's political actions and do such things as buy political advertising and do research and provide lobbyists. These can be funded by people who like those organizations, rather than those who just wanted to invest some money wisely.

      So, I'd favor very tight restrictions on the ability of for-profit corporations to operate politically.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    78. Re:Priorities by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      It's legal because TigerSwan was not operating on behalf of the government.

      News flash: private parties can commit illegal acts. TFS says the company was operating without a valid license, so obviously they were breaking the law. There were a lot of illegal and immoral actions against the water protectors, although I don't know what was done by police and what was done by private security.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    79. Re: Priorities by ooloorie · · Score: 1

      I own stock in several companies, which have overall purposes of making and selling stuff.

      Well, that's one kind of corporation. There are also corporations whose purpose is criticizing political candidates, feeding the poor, creating children's TV programs, providing news coverage, conducting medical research, and tons of other things.

      You know, like "Citizens United", which was a "corporation" created for the sole purpose of making a movie critical of Hillary Clinton. Of course, thin skinned, angry Hillary just couldn't stand that, so she went on a crusade (and lost).

      I question the morality of using corporate funds.

      What's "immoral" about a corporation created to bash Hillary Clinton using its money to, you know, bash Hillary Clinton?

      So, I'd favor very tight restrictions on the ability of for-profit corporations to operate politically.

      The fact that a corporation is not a "non-profit" doesn't mean that it is "for profit". In fact, if you claim "non-profit" status, you are limited in your speech because you are getting a tax break. So, apparently, you simply don't want free speech for any group of people, because you don't want it either for non-profits or regular corporations.

      And what about newspapers and TV stations? They won't shut up about politics and they are for profit (at least in theory). Should they be subjected to "very tight restrictions"? How do you feel about the Trump administration determining whether, say, a NYT article was proper or improper political speech?

    80. Re: Priorities by ooloorie · · Score: 1

      However, they make political contributions of corporate money to causes I disagree with, and as a stockholder it feels like they're using my money against me.

      Incidentally, in case it hadn't occurred to you, you can deal with that very easily: sell your shares. Problem solved. No need to trample on the free speech of others.

    81. Re: Priorities by Reverend+Green · · Score: 1

      Dude - there's nothing whatsoever inherently totalitarian about limiting the legal rights of state-sanctioned pretend "legal persons". That's just another loudly asserted non sequitur.

      Update your ideas to the 21st century and broaden your theory of the state. The state is the sum of all those manmade institutions that press upon the individual and make him act against his will, not just the democratically accountable part we call "government". It's clear that the more powerful and oppressive corporations become, the more powerful and oppressive this broad state becomes. Economic exploitation always requires force. No plebian would pay usury or rent, would consent to be alienated from the product of his labor, were it not for the ever-present threat of police violence.

      As far as totalitarianism goes I think you've kinda missed the boat on this one. Totalitarian financialism has already overtaken the United States and many other countries. Shit my brother, in America we've even got our very own Gulag. Packed full to bursting thru the liberal use of coerced confessions ("plea bargains"), just like in the Soviet Union. According to official fedgov statistics, something like 95% of souls interred in fedgov torture camps confessed ! Sure, when it comes to sheer size of the Gulag, good old Uncle Joe Stalin still has us beat. But we're catching up fast!

      One more thing. Where can I go to see one of these "free markets" I keep hearing so much about? Traveled around a bit, but I've never actually seen one. Looked in all the history books and I just can't find one in the past either. I guess it's like religion - you gotta have faith.

    82. Re: Priorities by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      I'm sure the people you trust are paragons of truth and virtue. However I still tend to rely on evidence rather than anecdote.

    83. Re: Priorities by Agripa · · Score: 1

      There are other organizations emphasizing the Second Amendment, and the ACLU has does respect it, although I don't like their interpretation.

      They respect it enough to undermine the other rights they defend with their alternate interpretation of "the people". The ACLU's position has always made them hypocrites but that is understandable when your initial funding comes with the provision that you not defend a specific right.

      As far as other organizations, the NRA did not start defending the Second Amendment until the 1970s and supported gun control before then. The ACLU was founded in 1920.

    84. Re: Priorities by ooloorie · · Score: 1

      Dude - there's nothing whatsoever inherently totalitarian about limiting the legal rights of state-sanctioned pretend "legal persons".

      And what's the motivation for "limiting the legal rights" of such entities? It's evidently that you don't like the idea that businesses are more powerful than the state; that businesses, rather than the state, determine how people live, what people eat, what jobs they hold, etc. That is what makes you a totalitarian; more specifically, it's the core of the fascist political program.

      Packed full to bursting thru the liberal use of coerced confessions ("plea bargains"), just like in the Soviet Union

      And your answer to this? Make the state more powerful!

      One more thing. Where can I go to see one of these "free markets" I keep hearing so much about? Traveled around a bit, but I've never actually seen one. Looked in all the history books and I just can't find one in the past either.

      US government spending relative to the economy was a few percentage points prior to WWII and businesses faced few regulations from the federal government. That's pretty close to a free market. Granted, the government still had its dirty fingers in a few businesses like banking and railroads, with horrendous consequences, but those used to be the exceptions. It wasn't an ideal free market, but it was a lot closer than it is today. There are plenty of other examples of free markets around the world.

      The state is the sum of all those manmade institutions that press upon the individual and make him act against his will, not just the democratically accountable part we call "government". It's clear that the more powerful and oppressive corporations become, the more powerful and oppressive this broad state becomes.

      Oh, the state indeed creates powerful and oppressive corporations, namely by creating monopolies and giving corporations power through regulation, mandates, etc. Pharma companies can charge what they do because they are protected by patents and FDA approval requirements, and because insurance companies are forced to pay whatever they charge. People can choose from ever fewer insurance companies, banks, landlords, public transportation companies, etc. because government regulation has created massive barriers to entry.

      Regulation is like drug addiction: you start off small, the positive effect wears off quickly, and then you need to up the dose.

      And eventually, you overdose.

    85. Re: Priorities by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      I believe there are several sorts of "non-profit" corporations. I give money to political advocacy groups that are at least not de facto for profit corporations, but I can't deduct the contributions on my taxes because they're political. This is fine, even when they disagree with me.

      Media are a more complicated legal problem, since they typically come with editorial sections and we don't want to hurt that, and we don't want to hinder them from actual reporting. However, I believe there are laws on what does and does not count as a political contribution (free advertising does), and we could use those as guidelines.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    86. Re: Priorities by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      In the real world, I hold stock in these companies for reasons other than political expression, and I don't know of comparable investments that aren't going to contribute my money for causes I disagree with.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    87. Re: Priorities by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Objective evidence can be hard to come by in cases like this. There have been illegal attacks on protesters, and there's evidence of that, in addition to what my friends tell me.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    88. Re: Priorities by ooloorie · · Score: 1

      Media are a more complicated legal problem, since they typically come with editorial sections and we don't want to hurt that, and we don't want to hinder them from actual reporting.

      Indeed! After all, what could be better for democracy and liberty than to give a virtual monopoly on large-scale speech to the hand-picked minions of billionaire newspaper owners, owners that in addition to their personal biases are highly dependent on the good will of politicians and government officials! Let democracy flourish, David Thornley style!

    89. Re: Priorities by ooloorie · · Score: 1

      In the real world, I hold stock in these companies for reasons other than political expression, and I don't know of comparable investments that aren't going to contribute my money for causes I disagree with.

      I see: so other people are successful but you don't like their political views so, voila, you demand a law that they behave like you want them to. What an enlightened, liberal attitude!

    90. Re: Priorities by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      Objective evidence is hard to come by when it comes to bigfoot, too; doesn't mean I'm going to believe eyewitness claims just because you vouch for the witness. In the absence of evidence a reasonable person withholds judgement.

  2. Terrorists by AK+Marc · · Score: 5, Informative

    The definition of "terrorist" is "anyone you don't like". And private contractors will turn people into proven terrorists, for a fee. Gotta love the free market.

    1. Re:Terrorists by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Right into a private detention facility.

    2. Re: Terrorists by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The people that deal with terrorism are often the same as those with the only tech and proceedures to define terrorism. No warrant, no trial, and no paperwork preferred. I think we originally called it Homeland... something or other. You can major in it in some colleges, believe it or not. It's pyramid scheme, but tax funded with drones and guns. And when things get real, they spend a small portion to hire a militia like Blackwater to do all the work off of the books. But why the military thing for an oil line? Why all the monitoring of protestors? Cutting communication? There's a theory that they are building a place for the elite few and that line is a fuel source, hence all the weird online EPA records and documents stuff going on. The other countries with the too many people or odd elevations "Go Green" while the U.S. stocks up on resources that don't require sunlight. It is a large and wealthy country, but with only 350 million people. Natural resource isn't an issue for them like it is for everyone else. Foreign mobile devices get searched for metadata as a containment measure so when the time comes, diplomats and people of interest will be notified and treated accordingly. The U.S. makes the selling of Internet data perfectly legal for ISP's so they only have to purchase your data rather than getting a search warrant. The throttling of Internet becomes legal as a way to disenfranchise certain resources and keep regular citizens ignorant with the general BS of Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, and Netflix. Most huge and popular countries move towards going cashless, while the U.S. has not even gave wind of considering it. Cash generally carries no record. The top projects in science have become AI and genetics, each with the public face of "improving our lives." No. AI is still learning but is being used to digitally fingerprint everyone. Genetics research is used to advance medicine as far as it can in as short of time as it can because resources may be very limited one day and it's easier to genetically modify crops ahead of time while also make it impossible for common diseases for those that can afford it to no longer exist. All services such as Ancestry, 23 and Me, and any blood screening scare the CDC cooks up are so that they can have blood samples from as many people as possible.

    3. Re: Terrorists by DaHat · · Score: 1

      Nice redefinition you tried there... Shame one group was engaged in violence... The other was not. Odd how this article is attacking the group who did not throw any molitov cocktails. Odd that eh?

    4. Re: Terrorists by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      The government worked to discredit and disband them, and yes, plenty saw the inside of a jail cell, including journalists covering the "event".

  3. Activists as jihadists by manu0601 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Considering activists as jihadists is the first step. Then you consider jihadists have been considered illegal fighters (a term invented to spare international laws on war), and you can send an activist straight to Guantanamo. Brilliant.

    1. Re: Activists as jihadists by DaHat · · Score: 1

      Except the concept of irregular combatants is far older than the war on terror... And added to the international lexicon long ago, and for good reason.

    2. Re:Activists as jihadists by Opportunist · · Score: 2

      Where does this come from? What made you think the GP thinks that Obama is any better than any of the other assholes that recently doubled as president of the US?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    3. Re: Activists as jihadists by manu0601 · · Score: 1

      I really thought it was coined during G.W. Bush era. What are the anterior usages?

    4. Re: Activists as jihadists by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      How irregular are they? According to the Hague Convention, if a country is invaded and the local army hasn't shown up yet, people who resist the invaders, carry arms openly, and fight reasonably cleanly must be treated as prisoners of war, if captured. Protection of other people is rather limited, but I don't think it's legal to round up people you think might be combatants and throw them into prison.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  4. Words fail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    They are comparing murderers who kill in the name of God to peaceful people who want to save their history, and more importantly, their watershed. What a bunch of follow-the-money bullshit.

    1. Re:Words fail by easyTree · · Score: 1

      Q15) Increased evolutionary pressure increases the rate of evolution, true or false ?

    2. Re:Words fail by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      You say that like it would be a bad thing? It's not like this planet really needs more people littering it.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  5. Link for standing rock pollution by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    I forgot to include the link about Standing Rock protestors leaving literal tons of pollution behind.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    1. Re:Link for standing rock pollution by h33t+l4x0r · · Score: 5, Insightful

      They left their tents and gear behind (and yes some trash) because they were arrested. That doesn't make them bad hippies.

    2. Re:Link for standing rock pollution by will_die · · Score: 1

      Someone even left their dogs and recently born puppies in the pile of stuff to burn.
      http://www.washingtontimes.com...

  6. putting your business out there by turkeydance · · Score: 1

    involves anticipation of this possibility.

    1. Re:putting your business out there by hyades1 · · Score: 1

      Any American trying to make an excuse for this kind of activity by either TigerSwan or the government is almost certainly a traitor, and should be dealt with accordingly.

      --
      I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
  7. Typo in summary by Opyros · · Score: 1

    "havested" should be "harvested".

    1. Re:Typo in summary by Gravis+Zero · · Score: 1

      Thank you for pointing out what really matters here, the spelling. -_-

      --
      Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
  8. Re:Not Counterterrorism, Counter-Espionage... by Darinbob · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The pipeline people were paid by the corporations anyway. None of the oil goes to America anyway, it's being refined and sent to China. Whining about paid protesters while ignoring the paid mercenaries hired by corporations seems like a stretch.

  9. Where is the problem actually? by hcs_$reboot · · Score: 1

    Do we need counter terrorism invasive measures? Are invasive measures vital to counter terrorism? Maybe, but that's not the problem. The real problem is who controls the huge data linked to most people in the country, since 99.999% is not related to terrorism at all. We need an independent and trustworthy organism that controls data extraction, storage, usage and destruction. Until then, the invasive measures will always be looked at suspiciously.

    --
    Slashdot, fix the reply notifications... You won't get away with it...
    1. Re:Where is the problem actually? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Nobody, no person, no organization, that holds that amount of information and hence power, stays independent and trustworthy for long. What kind of saint do you expect to take that position? Even with the best of all intentions he would fail.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  10. Oil companies have lots of money by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I wish the builders of other infrastructure could afford a counter protest force like this one. We could get that telescope built on Maunakea, get some new-generation nuclear plants started if we wished to get serious about carbon, and California could finally finish its bullet train.

  11. Re: Not Counterterrorism, Counter-Espionage... by javaman235 · · Score: 1

    That's kinda one of those 'woah' posts, not for the content of its narrative, but for the existence of the narrative. If this security firm was collaborating with law enforcement/intelligence, and trying to induce the arrest or investigation of protestors as a deterrent to protest, that's playing with fire: if the result of extensive investigations of these people by the world's best intel agencies was that they are Native Americans trying to protect their land not Russians, and furthermore they wasted lots of time and resources to discover that, and their work was only intended to intimidate people excercising constitutional rights, that's chutzpah, that's going to get some pushback.

    --
    -The art of programming is the pursuit of absolute simplicity.
  12. Even harvesting from social media?? by will_die · · Score: 2

    That is shocking and would not be expected.
    Who would of thought that a group tracking the actions of another group would stoop to harvesting information about them from social media.
    Then to follow that up they used the term "militaristic" to describe them collecting data. So they started to attack them?
    Overall rather bias article to describe one group that was tracking the actions of another group.

  13. Wrong, they left many other things behind - includ by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    They left their tents and gear behind (and yes some trash)

    That is totally wrong. They left over 200 cars, with all of the leaking fluids you'd expect from cars too worn to take away. They did not leave "some trash", they left 48 million pounds of trash. That is not a typo, that is from the The North Dakota Department of Emergency Services who hand to pay for carting that off (over $1 million taxpayers had to pay).

    But frankly what I thought was even worse (even though destroying hundreds of acres of grass and deeply polluting the watershed was bad enough), they also abandoned dogs - remember this was in winter, in sub-zero temperatures. That is the kind of SCUM you are supporting. Between fields of leaking cars and abandoned animals (may of which died BTW), How can you claim those are environmentalists of any form?

    At the time I left a large donation to the local animal shelter that had to handle the nonsense, you may want to consider doing the same as an act on contrition.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  14. If you want an end to this by rsilvergun · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Take care of the poor. Outside of the occasional loon organized terror only works because we've got millions (billions?) that lack food security. Said it before, will probably say it again: you abandon your poor at your peril.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re: If you want an end to this by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      Nonsense. When's the last time you heard about a terror attack carried out by destitute orphans?

      Terrorism is a tool of political organisations. The poor have other concerns; little things like where their next meal will come from, where they'll spend the night, or how to keep their leg from rotting off due to a lack of antibiotics. It's not like they're going to put all their worldly belongings in a cardboard box and trade them in for an AK-47.

  15. Super Shadowy by JBMcB · · Score: 3, Informative

    All hush-hush top secret shadow organizations have a web site.

    http://www.tigerswan.com/

    And twitter feed.

    https://twitter.com/TigerSwan

    --
    My Other Computer Is A Data General Nova III.
    1. Re:Super Shadowy by bongey · · Score: 1

      Oh noesss they have been found.

    2. Re:Super Shadowy by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      You needn't be super secret just because you're a threat to freedom. All you need is government backing.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  16. Who do you think he is - the EPA? by SuperKendall · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Not to mention the sixty million gallons of contaminated water you dumped into the river.

    Sorry but these days the only people contaminating the water that badly are with the EPA.

    But you'll be happy to know none of them will ever be punished because hey, government employees so no consequences for even the most horrific failures!

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  17. Re:Somehow this is Trump's and/or Russia's fault.. by easyTree · · Score: 1

    beee-causeeee....

    *sticks tongue out and thinks hard* ....it's his job to lead by example / set the tone for the whole country?

    Did I win?

  18. Re:Wrong, they left many other things behind - inc by h33t+l4x0r · · Score: 2

    Let's say that all of that were true, what's your argument? That they don't deserve clean water because they litter? Help me understand that position.

  19. Re:Wrong, they left many other things behind - inc by dfenstrate · · Score: 1

    Let's say that all of that were true, what's your argument? That they don't deserve clean water because they litter? Help me understand that position.

    It's pretty clear, but I'll spell it out: The protesters are not adults to be taken seriously. They can't even manage the environmental stewardship issues that are well within their control. We're certainly not going to let them impose mob rule on infrastructure projects that have passed all the required regulatory approvals.

    --
    Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be the name of a store, not a government agency.
  20. Re:Not Counterterrorism, Counter-Espionage... by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

    Whining about paid protesters while ignoring the paid mercenaries hired by corporations seems like a stretch.

    Good to see everybody's employed!

    --
    “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
  21. They are not real, they do not care by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    Let's say that all of that were true, what's your argument? That they don't deserve clean water

    First of all, I guess not because the PROTESTORS have polluted the water far more than the pipeline ever would have. If you are supporting the protestors you are supporting the POLLUTION of the local watershed.

    But the main point is this - they were not REAL protestors in that they did not care about that which they were supposedly protesting for. They were just another group backed by some large corporate slush fund and/or government entity trying to slow down pipeline expansion so some foreign oil money could hold on a little while longer to the profits they enjoy.

    SOME of the people there probably even believed in what they were protesting for. But the group that ran the protest sure did not, and the end result went DIRECTLY against the stated goal of the protest - to protect the water supply of the reservation. Instead they befouled it and killed of vast acreage of grasslands in the area (which is still polluted BTW, they only carted the surface layer of trash off, not whatever sank deep into the soil). The poor people that did believe were simply tools, as so many are these days *cough*like you*cough*.

    Had they ACTUALLY cared they would have had a smaller protest with more limited people which would have been just as effective. Had they ACTUALLY cared they would have followed the "leave no trace" principle which those of us who care for the environment know by heart, and rotated the site along with removing all waste and vehicles. Instead they did none of those things and left a scar on the land that will linger for centuries. You go and cheer that scar, you go ahead and cheer the befouling of the planet, I cannot.

    I'll let you have the last word since you are plainly set on ignoring the obvious truth (corroborated by many sources who live in the area) and instead supporting some remote oil baron while telling yourself a lie so you can feel good about it. Disgusting.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    1. Re:They are not real, they do not care by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      First of all, I guess not because the PROTESTORS have polluted the water far more than the pipeline ever would have.

      Keystone 1 has already leaked tens of thousands of gallons. Sorry, but your hyperbole is getting ahead of you. '

      They haven't even gotten their leak detection system working, so they've had to rely on passersby telling them about problems.

      Or did you not know that there is a record of leaks from the existing pipeline?

      Not to mention the new pipeline's environmental impact summary.

      If you are supporting the protestors you are supporting the POLLUTION of the local watershed.

      Why? Where does this logic come from? Besides False Dichotomy 101, Sophistry for Losers?

      But the main point is this - they were not REAL protestors in that they did not care about that which they were supposedly protesting for. They were just another group backed by some large corporate slush fund and/or government entity trying to slow down pipeline expansion so some foreign oil money could hold on a little while longer to the profits they enjoy.

      And yet you have no evidence of this, now do you? Just unfounded baseless accusations.

      SOME of the people there probably even believed in what they were protesting for. But the group that ran the protest sure did not, and the end result went DIRECTLY against the stated goal of the protest - to protect the water supply of the reservation. Instead they befouled it and killed of vast acreage of grasslands in the area (which is still polluted BTW, they only carted the surface layer of trash off, not whatever sank deep into the soil). The poor people that did believe were simply tools, as so many are these days *cough*like you*cough*.

      Still no evidence, huh? Not even evidence of the water supply being actually befouled, or even pictures of a vast acreage of grasslands ruined. Nothing.

      At least the folks who surveyed Henderson Island did some documentation.

      Had they ACTUALLY cared they would have had a smaller protest with more limited people which would have been just as effective. Had they ACTUALLY cared they would have followed the "leave no trace" principle which those of us who care for the environment know by heart, and rotated the site along with removing all waste and vehicles. Instead they did none of those things and left a scar on the land that will linger for centuries. You go and cheer that scar, you go ahead and cheer the befouling of the planet, I cannot.

      Ah, crying those crocodile tears again. Yeah, too bad people remember your responses to this story. A mere week, and you think people have forgotten.

      I'll let you have the last word since you are plainly set on ignoring the obvious truth (corroborated by many sources who live in the area) and instead supporting some remote oil baron while telling yourself a lie so you can feel good about it. Disgusting.

      The oil barons trying to run a pipeline across America are pretty remote to me, but interesting that you're stomping off in a tantrum, castigating others, while offering no substantive evidence to support your hysterical accusations.

      That none of the sources quite endorse your presentation of events is also meaningful, but even if they did, well, exactly why would we believe their accounts? Do you think we don't know they would lie as baldly as you do?

    2. Re:They are not real, they do not care by Khyber · · Score: 1

      " If you are supporting the protestors you are supporting the POLLUTION of the local watershed."

      Dude, within the past two weeks that fucking pipeline has had several hundred gallons of oil leak out - that's far more damaging to the watershed than the dump truck full of mostly-biodegradable trash the protestors left behind.

      It's obvious that you don't have a fucking clue about ecology, so as someone that works in the industry, I'm just going to tel you to shut the fuck up right now and I'm forever barring you from speaking upon this subject again until you go back to high school and take some basic earth sciences classes.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    3. Re:They are not real, they do not care by Khyber · · Score: 1

      The pipeline doesn't need to be complete to be transporting. I've worked oil transport. The pipeline is still viable to deliver oil to other areas that it currently services. The Illinois section is sending stuff to Iowa.

      Perhaps you should understand how oil transport works before opening your mouth on it.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
  22. Re:Wrong, they left many other things behind - inc by h33t+l4x0r · · Score: 1

    I just hope you feel the same way when it's your water at stake.

  23. Pinkertons, Debs, and the Unions by goombah99 · · Score: 5, Informative

    Boy this is Deja Vu. It's exactly what happened with the Unions, the Pinkerton Detective agency and the tacit support of the US government in the early part of last century. Look up Eugene Debs in Wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... He helped form the first nation wide trade union in the US (for the trains). And when they struck the Pullman company arranged with the complicity of the US govt to acquire the US mail contract making it a federal crime not to couple pulman cars to trains. Along the way someone set off a bomb (probably the pinkertons to frame the union strikers) and the entire union leadership was imprisoned. there's a nice picture of them all in their sunday best taken together in jail on the wikipedia site. (ironically in Woodstock, a place more known for 60s rock concerts now) . While in prison together Debs started reading various socialist literature and when they were release formed the Socialist party in the USA. He ran for president several times getting millions of votes (6% of the popular vote). He became famous for a stump speech saying no working class person should be going to fight in World War II because it's just a richmans war making the munitions makers richer and killing the poor. He was arrested for treason and sedition, sentenced to 10 years in prison, stripped of his own right to vote, and still ran for president (getting 3.4% of the popular vote while in his jail cell). In the court room when asked to recant he said

    "Your Honor, years ago I recognized my kinship with all living beings, and I made up my mind that I was not one bit better than the meanest on earth. I said then, and I say now, that while there is a lower class, I am in it, and while there is a criminal element, I am of it, and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free."

    While in prison he started the Prison Reform movement, and President Harding pardoned him partly hoping to quash that. He was nominated for the Nobel peace prize for his astute portrayl of World War I as the Capitalist war.

    Nearly every use of the Sedition act has been against political prisoners and frequently for union busting.

    --
    Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
    1. Re:Pinkertons, Debs, and the Unions by Lost+Race · · Score: 1

      (ironically in Woodstock, a place more known for 60s rock concerts now)

      Debs was imprisoned in Woodstock, IL. The rock concert was in NY, and not actually in the town of Woodstock, NY.

  24. Re:Wrong, they left many other things behind - inc by just+another+AC · · Score: 2

    Let's say that all of that were true, what's your argument? That they don't deserve clean water because they litter? Help me understand that position.

    It's pretty clear, but I'll spell it out: The protesters are not adults to be taken seriously. They can't even manage the environmental stewardship issues that are well within their control. We're certainly not going to let them impose mob rule on infrastructure projects that have passed all the required regulatory approvals.

    One more time... what's your argument? That because they are [insert literally anything here], that in a first world democratic nation they do not deserve a basic survival commodity of clean water?

    So what else don't they deserve? Protection of the law? Freedom of speech?

    Land of the free, home of the [people I approve of]

  25. Re:Finish building it, go ahead. by sjames · · Score: 1

    Make it leak where the rivers aren't.

  26. Re:Not Counterterrorism, Counter-Espionage... by sjames · · Score: 3, Informative

    You didn't do the math, did you. The tribal council accepted $375,000. Assuming they passed 100% on to the protesters, that comes to the lordly sum of $125 each. Wow, they must be living large now in their new Lambos.

  27. Re:Finish building it, go ahead. by rworne · · Score: 1

    Hey, we had a pipeline going across Alaska since the late 70's. With drunken idiots with guns trying to shoot holes in it and the occasional maintenance mishap leading to spills, Alaska has somehow not turned into a barren oil-soaked wasteland yet.

    --
    I tried every decent and legal way I could think of to resolve the issue w/the business before I rented the chicken suit
  28. Stop virtue signalling by AHuxley · · Score: 3, Interesting

    When people protested in East Germany, people who risked at lot by using a television camera did not get caught.

    Dont use your own equipment. If your wealthy enough to be able to afford to protest all day, buy an older weather sealed dslr camera and lens. No need for in camera wifi. Use the card to get your files to a computer of editing and upload later.
    Ensure the serial number in the camera is not linked to your name with every file uploaded or created.
    Take some images and video of the protest. Remove any camera serial numbers in the files, edit, add a voice over and your groups logo and branding, compress, then upload it using some existing network and on a computer that won't be used later.
    Do not take a "computer" thats "fast" or "sealed against the weather" from protest to protest. Dont use wifi or networking from your computer like device.
    Sneaker net your video file to a final separate, cheap device just for fast networking.

    All MAC and any other unique details about all networks will be collected on.
    Think about what device connects to that final network to send a file to the world. A random strangers offer of a free network, computer help could be an undercover contractor or police wanting to get more direct access to your hardware and software, OS.
    Protect your devices and equipment from digital tracking and "new" best friends or "smart" friendly strangers with free offers of help.
    Police and contractors can be anyone, thats why they are doing undercover work in protests. Some are past protesters who had to make a deal with the police to stay free. They have to collect it all and work very hard at making new friends.
    While a protester might have been taking years of French or arts at some liberal university, police and contractors learned how to become "protesters" over the years.
    The undercover officers offers will be for device access to help with "media" or "editing"

    Every face at a protest will be stored for facial recognition. Any and all networks or networked devices will be collected on.
    Read up on what the NSA, GCHQ, CIA and other 5 eye nations do when they "collect it all".
    The same ability is now on the open market at a low cost for a city, state or contractor. Dont trust any hardware, software or OS thats been near a protest after a protest.
    Anyone could have added code, altered the device, accessed the OS or collected its network details.
    Ensure the only collection a city or federal gov or its contractors can do is facial recognition. Keep your hardware and software way from their networks.
    A streaming cell phone is great for recoding an event and not having data erased on site but it comes with the cost of collection and device or OS alteration.
    Dont bring malware pushed down a network home after a protest. If your security aware, use dedicated devices as bait and see if any devices are altered. Study bait hardware later under Tempest https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... conditions but don't allow your own deices to get altered to test for such gov/police/contractor pushed malware.

    The final thing to consider is the new stranger in your group. Get them talking about their past and get their image and see what different free and other image search products find online.
    City or state contractors might not have the skills to remove all past images or their story will not mach a few traces found online.
    Federal and contractors working undercover have the ability to rewrite online social media so their undercover "story" will mach perfectly to any and all online data sets that can be searched for.
    If your protest group has some international funding, take the image to any of the big national private detective groups in the USA.
    Their social media databases are long term, static, always updating and do not get altered like the online consumer networks.
    They can rewind most accounts to creation and see ho

    --
    Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
  29. giant pile of garbage by epine · · Score: 1

    To my eye all these posts about the giant pile of garbage are a giant pile of bike-shed garbage.

    It looks and smells like standard online disruption tactics, when there are far bigger fish to fry.

    Also, any post (or poster) citing "roommate" as a source (with or without ambiguous irony) needs to mentally hell-banned. Don't waste mental effort attempting to parse ambiguous irony bait. Anyone with a constructive intent would know better than to further cloud a crap fight.

    A worthwhile post: (1) does not mention giant piles of abandoned garbage, (2) does not employ irony or sarcasm on any level, (3) does not mention roommates or any other form of "some person I know".

    I guess that's just for future reference, as I figure this thread is fried by opposing ideological troll armies, no matter what.

    What a shitty world we're creating.

    This place simply can't support this discussion, unless we're going to add:

    -1 small-fish bike shed
    -1 failure to speak plainly
    -1 second-hand non-entity

    And probably more.

    1. Re:giant pile of garbage by Reziac · · Score: 1

      Can't find the aerial shot I wanted offhand, but this will do:

      http://www.kfyrtv.com/content/...

      https://heatst.com/politics/da...

      At about the halfway point, the total was 24,000 TONS of garbage. And about a dozen abandoned dogs.

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
  30. social justice through private charity by epine · · Score: 2

    One more thing about the money angle.

    Over the years, I've listened to most of the EconTalk back catalog. I agree with Russ Roberts about 60% of the time, yet I have some pretty strong disagreements in the other 40%.

    Part of his standard spiel about diminishing the role of government in all practical venues is his model of private charity. I just found this now, but it turns out he's actually written a paper on the subject:

    A Positive Model of Private Charity and Public Transfers

    The whole point of relying less on government to adjudicate public life is that every side of the argument can stump up their own pocket books, as they see fit as private citizens. My own gut instinct is that this would devolve into an extremely capricious network of civic concern and attention, by the standard mechanism of charismatic megafauna getting all the grease.

    So if these protesters (or some subset thereof) turn out to have deep pockets behind them, that actually means, in certain well-established strands of orthodox libertarian theory, that they are in good standing with the giant neoliberal program of dragging big government into a small bathtub, and it would be entirely their own business how they raise their protest stake. Because under Libertarianism, all dollars are created equal, and from this assumption (and possibly also God) unencumbered moral equilibrium shall automatically flow.

    Nevertheless, suck-and-blow types somehow always seem to show up with a steady supply of nefarious labels concerning the hidden ka-ching. The standard smoke machine demands this narrative. (Business As Usual wouldn't much mind if the protesters did conform to their established narrative lot of being eternally impoverished and poorly organized, so it wins either way.)

    I actually prefer government as a player in many issues, because it aims (until corrupted) to be somewhat transparent (no-one ever accused government of getting anything exactly right, which I regard as a false standard, because no-one ever accused any human system of getting anything exactly right, modulo "law of the jungle, the losers can suck it"; government is simply better at counting up losers than most private-sector alternatives).

    I guess many people out there figure that if America went much further toward the Libertarian end of the spectrum, we'd all be united in the Church of the Profit Motive, and this kind of dispute simply wouldn't transpire among gentlemen, and we would not be constantly up to our ankles in dark money vs. deep money shit storms. Well, I'm not personally signing up to test drive that experimental fork in the road. I'm not saying it couldn't possibly work. The world is a complicated place. But I'd rather not risk my own skin to that experiment.

    Constructive public discourse is fragile. This one thing, for sure, we all know.

    Seneca, Nebraska — 12 October 2016

    Back in 2014 the town of Seneca, Nebraska was deeply divided. How divided? They were so fed up with each other that some citizens began circulating a petition that proposed a radical solution. If a majority wanted to they'd self-destruct, end the town, and wipe their community off the map.

    Bike shed? Or canary in the coal mine?

    In this instance, it's hard to say. The politics of division have this strange, new, frightening face.

    1. Re:social justice through private charity by swb · · Score: 1

      EconTalk is a great podcast, even if you disagree with most of what Roberts and his guests have to say. Although I would argue that Roberts is intelligent enough and reasonable enough that only a doctrinaire ideologue could disagree with a significant majority of what gets said.

      My problem with private charity vs. government welfare is that private charity seems more prone to the moral hazard of putting its agenda ahead of its charity -- converting recipients to its faith, restricting its charity to organizational members or or other similar organizational goals. Charity becomes a kind of service delivered for the price of loyalty or ideological alignment.

      As for the politics of division, I think we're just seeing side effects of an increasing population combined with an increasingly centralized power structure. There's space, physically and politically for divergent views. My guess is that on of the design goals of the United States as a federation was to limit the problems of divergent views by giving individual states enough political power that divergence could be diluted among the many states.

      With the long term growth in Federal power and the decline in individual State power, there is less room for divergent views to translate into actual political outcomes. When combined with a concurrent growth in population and ideological diversity, the overall outcome is conflict that has no outlet.

    2. Re:social justice through private charity by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Looks to me like private charity can work well in relatively small and homogenous communities, but tends to fail with larger and more diverse communities, so government intervention is needed.

      A lot of the urban vs. rural conflict seems to me to be people seeing solutions that work in their own communities and assuming they apply universally. Cities need government assistance much more than small rural towns. People living in the countryside need guns more than city dwellers.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  31. Re:Wrong, they left many other things behind - inc by sjames · · Score: 1

    They might have actually cleared their trash as they went along if doing so didn't involve running a gauntlet of law enforcement that wasn't particularly careful not to blow people's arms off, soak them to the bone in sub freezing weather, and such. Others have already explained the dogs and the cars.

  32. No Oil leaks in Alaska by addikt10 · · Score: 1

    Hey, we had a pipeline going across Alaska since the late 70's. With drunken idiots with guns trying to shoot holes in it and the occasional maintenance mishap leading to spills, Alaska has somehow not turned into a barren oil-soaked wasteland yet.

    I never thought of it that way.
    You are right, I'm sure. Never any damage caused to the environment in Alaska due to an oil spill.

    1. Re:No Oil leaks in Alaska by rworne · · Score: 1

      We are talking pipelines, not the Exxon Valdez.

      You don't want oil tanker spills? Make up your mind then.

      --
      I tried every decent and legal way I could think of to resolve the issue w/the business before I rented the chicken suit
  33. Re:Finish building it, go ahead. by Opportunist · · Score: 1

    Not everywhere, no.

    But I somehow wouldn't really want to eat the snow within a mile of a pipeline...

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  34. Re:Not Counterterrorism, Counter-Espionage... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Wrong pipeline. Try to get your basic facts right. The DAPL pipeline is taking oil from the North Dakota oil fields to refineries near Chicago, where it is to be refined into petroleum products for use across the Midwest. None of that oil is going overseas. Until the Pipeline is/was up and running that oil is currently being shipped via truck and train, resulting in multiple large derailment leaks over the last few years.

    The Keystone Pipeline, an entirely different pipeline is to take oil from Canada to Gulf coast refineries to be refined before being shipped overseas to China. Most if not all of that oil is going to China, we benefit from the jobs, Canada benefits from not having to build a pipeline across the Canadian Rockies.

    Two different pipelines. This story is entirely about the DAPL pipeline.

  35. Re:Wrong, they left many other things behind - inc by Opportunist · · Score: 1

    Yes, how could we educated nobles leave half the planet to the unwashed masses?

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  36. Re:Who cares? by Opportunist · · Score: 2

    Yeah, how dare they speak their mind? If we don't stop them right here, next they'll even demand the right to peacefully assemble, and what we got then may not be stoppable anymore.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  37. Re:When do the assassinations start? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

    So... all it takes to get holidays all year long is about 10k dead people?

    Hand me that machine gun, please.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  38. And Are They Hiring? by tmjva · · Score: 1, Funny

    Just by posting this, I don't even have to look them up or send my resume!

    I'm on their radar now.

    --
    Tracy Johnson
    Old fashioned text games hosted below:
    http://empire.openmpe.com/
    BT
    1. Re:And Are They Hiring? by tmjva · · Score: 1

      Actually I'm a retired OSINT collector.  This is funnier that most folks think.

      --
      Tracy Johnson
      Old fashioned text games hosted below:
      http://empire.openmpe.com/
      BT
  39. What the "there" there? by mi · · Score: 1

    And this is legal how?

    How is it illegal? Free country, remember? Everything, that is not explicitly prohibited, is implicitly allowed. Not the other way around.

    They also report that TigerSwan "has operated without a license in North Dakota for the entirety of the pipeline security operation."

    There is nothing mentioned in the write-up, that should required a license...

    --
    In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    1. Re: What the "there" there? by slashdotwannabe · · Score: 1

      Because States have licensing requirements for security companies? TigerSwan wasn't licensed?

      --
      This comment is my opinion and does not represent an official position of Donald Trump or others I do not work for
    2. Re: What the "there" there? by mi · · Score: 1

      If the activities alleged to have been performed by the company by the write-up require a license, such requirement in itself is is the scandal that needs to be fought by ACLU, EFF (the social media parts), and others.

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    3. Re: What the "there" there? by slashdotwannabe · · Score: 1

      If the activities alleged to have been performed by the company by the write-up require a license, such requirement in itself is is the scandal that needs to be fought by ACLU, EFF (the social media parts), and others.

      ACLU? EFF? Requiring that a private security company carry appropriate licenses and insurance is not a violation of the Constitution, so the ACLU doesn't care and certainly not anything that the EFF seeks to protect. What's next for you? Sending the fire department to investigate murders? Sending the meat inspectors to check out buildings?

      --
      This comment is my opinion and does not represent an official position of Donald Trump or others I do not work for
    4. Re: What the "there" there? by mi · · Score: 1

      Requiring that a private security company carry appropriate licenses

      What "appropriate licenses"?. For those posing under the "SLOW CHILDREN" sign. The very fact, that activities like surveillance and research of online posts by others require a license is an outrage.

      These weren't uniformed guards — armed or not — who may be mistaken for official law-enforcement and for that reason can be subjected to licensing requirements. They served no warrants or documents — it was research and connecting the dots. This should not require a license.

      Any attempts to limit research of anything online would be for EFF's to fight. The rest — for ACLU, if the two organizations really stood for liberty, rather than Left "progressivism".

      not a violation of the Constitution, so the ACLU doesn't care

      ACLU are full of shit — if they cared about the Constitution, they would've fought anti-weapon laws nation-wide. Forget "assault weapons" — you can't even possess a knife or a slingshot in some parts of the country. Pompous hypocritical assholes...

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
  40. Re:Wrong, they left many other things behind - inc by dfenstrate · · Score: 1

    I just hope you feel the same way when it's your water at stake.

    There is no issue raised by the protesters that wasn't an item covered by the array of regulatory reviews that where required before construction could even begin. What fault do you find with the process that approved the pipeline and route? Where did the 50 agencies involved go wrong?

    --
    Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be the name of a store, not a government agency.
  41. Re:Wrong, they left many other things behind - inc by dfenstrate · · Score: 1

    Let's say that all of that were true, what's your argument? That they don't deserve clean water because they litter? Help me understand that position.

    It's pretty clear, but I'll spell it out: The protesters are not adults to be taken seriously. They can't even manage the environmental stewardship issues that are well within their control. We're certainly not going to let them impose mob rule on infrastructure projects that have passed all the required regulatory approvals.

    One more time... what's your argument? That because they are [insert literally anything here], that in a first world democratic nation they do not deserve a basic survival commodity of clean water?

    So what else don't they deserve? Protection of the law? Freedom of speech?

    Land of the free, home of the [people I approve of]

    There was no threat to clean water that wasn't addressed in the regulatory process that approved the pipeline to begin with. Tell me, what fault do you find with the laws, regulations, and agencies involved?

    You don't have a serious answer because you're not a serious person. At best you're engaging in an emotional outburst that lets you paint yourself as the embattled hero. I'm not required to take you seriously. Yes, you have a right to the protection of law and freedom of speech. You don't have the right to trespass and destroy when you don't like the outcome of a legally made decision.

    --
    Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be the name of a store, not a government agency.
  42. Propaganda by JBMcB · · Score: 1

    I'm commenting on how The Intercept is using language to portray the company in a certain light.

    If you are trying to portray a company as "shadowy" when it has a fairly robust online presence, you aren't doing journalism, you're doing propaganda.

    --
    My Other Computer Is A Data General Nova III.
    1. Re:Propaganda by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Right. The word he should have used is "shady".

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  43. History repeats... by iq145 · · Score: 1

    Sounds like TigerSwan had their own Edward Snowjob! :-)

  44. Re:Not Counterterrorism, Counter-Espionage... by fatwilbur · · Score: 1

    Passed 100% on to protesters - LOL. Then you don't know how bands work. Band councils are controlled by a small group of closely related people from one or two families. That money was all kept to themselves.\

    Now if we said ten people, who were very influential "elders" of their community, were each given nearly $40,000 each to stir up fervent opposition within the band.. well, I bet that $40k would speak louder than any actual reasonable discussion of the merits of the project.

    Typically the opposition goes away when the pipeline company offers a greater amount. It's all about the money.

  45. Re:Not Counterterrorism, Counter-Espionage... by sjames · · Score: 1

    I was being as generous as possible with the paid protester claim, not suggesting what I believed happened. In fact, I do believe no money was passed on to the protesters.

  46. They're a counterterrorism "hammer" by sabbede · · Score: 1

    so every problem looks like a terrorist "nail". Why would they take a different approach?

  47. Re:Wrong, they left many other things behind - inc by just+another+AC · · Score: 1

    There was no threat to clean water that wasn't addressed in the regulatory process that approved the pipeline to begin with. Tell me, what fault do you find with the laws, regulations, and agencies involved?

    Just because a process found no fault doesn't mean there isn't one. Politics/money/power. No-one should blindly accept results of any process. They should be free to question, free to object, free to protest.

    You don't have a serious answer because you're not a serious person. At best you're engaging in an emotional outburst that lets you paint yourself as the embattled hero.

    ignoring this little character assasination attempt. I'm quite calm about this all, as I don't have a stake in the battle, only the meta battle that people should be entitled to all protections regardless of their actions.

    I'm not required to take you seriously. Yes, you have a right to the protection of law and freedom of speech. You don't have the right to trespass and destroy when you don't like the outcome of a legally made decision.

    Correct you don't need to take me seriously, or anything seriously. Debate the points not the person.

    You don't have the right to trespass/destroy. But you do have the right to protest. The two may even conflict. There might even need to be an arm of government dedicated to sorting out the application of laws to specific cases.

    I hope all protesters are charged with (or at least considered for) all relevant offences, and I hope the judicial system weighs all appropriate considerations eliminating/reducing them as appropriate.
    Are they guilt free? No
    Was their access to clean water threatened? Maybe (cannot say 100% no, 99.9999% certainty is not enough)
    Should they have been there? Hell yes (as cannot say 100% certainty to point above).
    Should they wear the consequences of any UNJUST actions on their part? Yes.