Trump Administration Approves Tougher Visa Vetting, Including Social Media Checks (reuters.com)

The Trump administration has rolled out a new questionnaire for U.S. visa applicants worldwide that asks for social media handles for the last five years and biographical information going back 15 years. From a report: The new questions, part of an effort to tighten vetting of would-be visitors to the United States, was approved on May 23 by the Office of Management and Budget despite criticism from a range of education officials and academic groups during a public comment period. Critics argued that the new questions would be overly burdensome, lead to long delays in processing and discourage international students and scientists from coming to the United States. Under the new procedures, consular officials can request all prior passport numbers, five years' worth of social media handles, email addresses and phone numbers and 15 years of biographical information including addresses, employment and travel history.

Comments

Maybe the'll make the vetting retoractive

[JoeyRox]

Like they did their ethics waviers:
http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/336038-white-house-may-have-broke-ethics-rule-with-retroactive-waiver-report

Re: Maybe the'll make the vetting retoractive

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't do social media - its boring! (See, th fb app is disabled on my phone.) So their form is quickly dealt with, I'm AC at slashdot. Thats it!
No credentials needed, but collating my posting history will be some work.

Re: Maybe the'll make the vetting retoractive

[Anonymous Coward]

No, how would he get back into the US then?

Easily Thwarted

[Jzanu]

This is just more that will isolate the US from the global scientific and economic community.

Everyone else will just lie as much as necessary, and give either partial lists or entirely fake curated profile.

Re:Easily Thwarted

[Jzanu]

Nice fantasy you fucking idiot, but how will you gather evidence on the thousands of travelers through each of the international airports each day? That's the problem with fake security practices, they get the rabid base to thrash but do nothing about any actual issues.

Re:Easily Thwarted

[Anonymous Coward]

right-----as if people know every social media password, and every place they ever travelled to during the past 15 years. I couldn't even name every traffic ticket I got during the past 15 years.

Re:Easily Thwarted

[Anonymous Coward]

Nice fantasy you fucking idiot, but how will you gather evidence on the thousands of travelers through each of the international airports each day? That's the problem with fake security practices, they get the rabid base to thrash but do nothing about any actual issues.

Rudeness is a weak man's attempt at strength.

Nearly all air travel tickets are bought in advance. That allows time to vet those who should be vetted. The Israelis have been doing this
successfully for some time ; I'm sure they'd be amused by you telling them it's all fake and cannot be done.

Re:Easily Thwarted

[Jzanu]

Do you understand the impact of traffic volume on a system? What works at low levels does not work at higher levels. Airports become warehouses faster than anything when traffic is interrupted, and delays cost millions of dollars very quickly. Security theater is not just useless and counterproductive, it is actively destructive.

Re:Easily Thwarted

[AHuxley]

People with normal, valid paperwork wanting to enter the USA for any normal reason should have no issues.

Re:Easily Thwarted

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you understand the impact of traffic volume on a system? What works at low levels does not work at higher levels. Airports become warehouses faster than anything when traffic is interrupted, and delays cost millions of dollars very quickly. Security theater is not just useless and counterproductive, it is actively destructive.

The checks are done well before a passenger flies. This obviates the airport jams you envision. Those who do not comply with
the checks won't even be permitted to board a flight which is traveling to the US.

I don't know what field you might have skills in, but it's not anything to do with this discussion, that is painfully obvious. Your comments
are the sort of thing I'd expect from a teenager who has little knowledge of such matters. Of course maybe you ARE a teenager who has
little knowledge of such matters. In any case, I'm not wasting any more of my time on you and your amateur attempt at pretending to be a security expert.

Why don't you go play a video game or do something else more productive and quit pretending to know about stuff you don't know
about.

Re:Easily Thwarted

[Shados]

It really won't change much. As you said, a chunk of people will simply lie or jump the border.

The rest will be able to simply skip the requirement. Eg: Because of my line of work and the country I came from, even though I half assed my green card application and didn't submit half of the crap they asked for, I got approved super quickly anyway. They have a huge amount of discretion in what they can overlook.

It would be way better if they didn't. Some people from certain countries will get overlooked on purpose, some people won't even try to apply when we'd love to have them...but a lot of people will go through just fine without handing over any extra info, too.

Re:Easily Thwarted

[Anonymous Coward]

you don't get to lock them up, you get to refuse them entry or deport them. being locked up in these circumstances will be reserved for US citizens that lie.

Re:Easily Thwarted

[aliquis]

I a shit-poster racist autist including supporter of Trump and it's not like I don't even KNOW all the e-mail and social media accounts I've used over the last five years.

They could had gotten my mains, or a cleaned up version (I actually made one but since I had a double 30 day ban on my two other accounts I started posting on that one too so that one is fucked as far as being "clean" goes.)

They could also had gotten a a few accounts of each I guess. But all? I'm made temp accounts on yandex and hushmail and such, I don't know them!!

Re:Easily Thwarted

[sit1963nz]

JFK has over 30 million passengers through each year.

That means 82,191 passengers need vetting each day.
Assuming they each take one hour (e.g. each person can do 8 per day) and you have 3 8 hour shifts, you would need 3,424 people just to handle the traffic at JFK.

And we dont even account for holidays,sick days, etc, etc. Then there will be the supervisors, computer support, Managers, payroll, etc etc etc so lets take that to 4,000 people.

Now, Where is the money to pay them coming from ?

Make them pay you say, OK fine, that will mean competing airports in Canada and Mexico will see a rise in passenger numbers because costs are lower and thats on top of all those people who are choosing to avoid the USA anyway now. This will see thousands of people jobless in the Tourism industry, tens of BILLIONS in lost overseas revenue.

How do I know this, because I am one of a growing number who are choosing to avoid the US.

So go ahead break your country. There is absolutely no law that says the US can not become a failure.

Re:Easily Thwarted

[Anonymous Coward]

What if you dont have social media account? everyone assumes everyone dose or those that don't are hiding something.

I simply dont have one, this would most lily mean I cannot travel to the US without creating a "fake" one

Re:Easily Thwarted

[AHuxley]

re "impact of traffic volume on a system?"
That will all be done before a person is accepted for travel into the USA. A person will apply to be allowed to enter the USA. After all that work is done, they will have documents that will allow a person to travel to the USA.
Further questions might be asked if new information has been found or if a person tries to lie about anything as they enter the USA.
If anything is found to be wrong they will not be allowed to enter the USA.
Dont lie, don't support or fund banned groups and a persons holiday, visit, stay, further education or work in the USA will be as normal.
Other nations can do this without any issues and most nations did this very well over many decades.
The volume problem is spread back over the applicants different nations and they have to wait a while.
Once their documents are found to be valid the US will keep working on granting access to the USA for some reason.
The "delays cost millions of dollars very quickly" won't be an issue for people who are not trying to lie as they will be waiting in their own nations until the needed travel documents are ready.

Re:Easily Thwarted

[Jzanu]

That's still fantasy at scale. Get ready to subsidize your airports for lost traffic and equipment non-use. What, did you think an airplane sitting on a runway was free?

Re:Easily Thwarted

[AHuxley]

A person will need some email to submit documents or be told of the results or if more documents needed. So that type of online account is often needed by a lot of normal nations.
If a person creates a new email account or joins a new ISP just to visit the USA with a clean history?
Most normal people who can afford to enter the USA and support themselves in the USA for their holiday, work or education could be expected have an existing email account or ISP in 2017.
The question is simple.
Give an account that has been used for years or create a new account if needed.
Lie about years online, years on social media supporting banned groups and the USA gets very interested after a person creates a new account just for requesting US travel.
The question is fine for normal people who might not have email, just create one but then trying to lie about old accounts or not having other accounts will be detected.
Not been "online" is not the issue. The lie of a person having to hide an interesting online past by creating a series of new clean accounts is the issue.

Re:Easily Thwarted

[gl4ss]

And we will lock up every single one of the people who do what you describe, in a prison which will make them wish
they'd never tried it. There'a always room in prison, especially when you are housed in a 5 x 10 foot solitary cell.

So go ahead, motherfucker. We will be happy to show you some American hospitality.

for people who think this is stupid, it is. you can't just lock up people in solitary for that and in the amounts he describes and furthermore some people don't even know the name of some town 15 years ago they lived in for a little while that got then bombed to shit and would need to know the county it was in and shit.

but whats scary is that cia does that randomly.

Re:Easily Thwarted

[Anonymous Coward]

Somebody broke the liberal again, it's cursing and sputtering because it lost an argument!

Re:Easily Thwarted

[AHuxley]

The "airplane" will arrive with people having the correct paperwork to enter the USA as expected as every other normal nation expects.
No paperwork for the USA, no entering the "airplane" and getting to the USA. Flying people around with fake or no paperwork is not a good policy and most airlines try not to do that. Governments tend to notice on a lack of documents on both ends of the flight.
Further questions might be asked if a person is interesting or lies but most nations have worked out how to guide people from the airplane, to the area to present valid documents and then out of the airport.

Re:Easily Thwarted

[Jzanu]

You know there's such a thing as turnaround time, right? Airplanes are scheduled extremely tightly, and any delay costs the operators money which the airport will have to pay to remain competitive. Or, you know, you could just admit your true objective of crippling your own damn economy.

Re: Easily Thwarted

[Anonymous Coward]

Ahaha this is one of the lamest things I've ever read here, congratulations.

Re: Easily Thwarted

[Anonymous Coward]

Wohhh boys we gotta badass over here

Re: Easily Thwarted

[Anonymous Coward]

Lol Jzanu doesn't understand how an entry visa works.

Re: Easily Thwarted

[Jzanu]

Some random coward doesn't understand operations management.

Re:Easily Thwarted

[religionofpeas]

Why should a more elaborate visa application result in extra delays at the airport ? You get your visa before you travel.

Re:Easily Thwarted

[religionofpeas]

That means 82,191 passengers need vetting each day. Assuming they each take one hour

It doesn't take any longer than it does now. If they have a valid visa, then you let them in. If they don't, you send them back, just like now. All the vetting has already been done during visa application.

Re:Easily Thwarted

[AHuxley]

People with normal passports don't create 'turnaround time" in most normal nations.
The flights land, take off, depart, connect, people make their flights just fine.
Domestic and international travel has worked well for most normal people in most other normal nations that have valid travel documents over many decades.
Wealthy and poor nations have counted every person, in and out, and looked at every issued travel document.
A normal person entering the USA for a visit, education, to stay, for work is expected given US embassy work and can be moved around as needed without slowing down all other scheduled flights.
US embassy workers in other nations have done their work, passengers then arrive into the USA with correct paperwork.
They don't have 'turnaround time" issues as they have allowed time to looked at all the documents in an out of their nations.
Ports, airports, rail, most nations don't have 'turnaround time" problems, as they have allowed time to look at all documents.

Re: Easily Thwarted

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe he hasn't, I have, indeed, even had to pull a nail out of my knee. That's why I'm posting anonymously - what's your excuse?

The poster you reply to may not have worked in these various fields, but I have and continue to sell software to them. Let me state this quite clearly - Trump is a useful idiot being used by those around him to achieve their fantasies - fantasies which are already hurting America and are going to make things much worse for all Americans.

Don't believe the hype.

Re:Easily Thwarted

[Anonymous Coward]

No one cares WHEN the vetting is done, it still HAS to be done and it still takes the same amount of work no matter when it is done.

It DOES take longer simply because the vetting is going to be in more depth, i.e. checking their Facebook and other pages.

The only way this does not take longer is that no checking is actually done.

Re:Easily Thwarted

[Anonymous Coward]

The AC that Jzanu replied to called them a motherfucker, unprovoked. And you're complaining that Jzanu is the rude one?

Re:Easily Thwarted

[Sits]

It's a bit more elaborate because if you need a visa (citizens of some countries can get visa waivers) at application time you MIGHT be asked to give up all this extra information if they deem it necessary. It's not clear that every visa application will force the applicant to cough up all this information right away or only if you trigger some extra checks required tripwire (e.g. "name contains non-even number of letters, full information required"). Also note this presumably happens once per visa so if your visa lasts a year and you were pressured into having to do this you'll have done it once for that year even though you may fly many times...

Re:Easily Thwarted

[religionofpeas]

No one cares WHEN the vetting is done, it still HAS to be done and it still takes the same amount of work no matter when it is done.

It's not that hard. You make a one-time database of all social media accounts, passport numbers, and e-mail addresses, and flag everyone that you consider suspicious (they probably already have that). When a visa applicant comes in, you run their history through the database. Add the data to their existing risk profile, and continue with standard procedures. Maybe you'll spend a bit more time on persons that are flagged, but in return you can afford to spend less time on people that aren't.

Re: Easily Thwarted

[Anonymous Coward]

I have thousands of "social media" accounts. All of them fake. Good luck vetting them in the one month before my flight, Nazi!

Re:Easily Thwarted

[Ihlosi]

If they have a valid visa, then you let them in.

That's not how visas work. You can still get sent back despite having a perfectly valid visa.

Re:Easily Thwarted

[AC-x]

Ignoring what Jzanu said for a moment, how do you propose for the border agency to actually find undeclared social media accounts and email addresses? At least without giving the government the power to read every single email stored in the US on the pretext of looking for aliases?

Re:Easily Thwarted

[Anonymous Coward]

This is just more that will isolate the US from the global scientific and economic community.

Everyone else will just lie as much as necessary, and give either partial lists or entirely fake curated profile.

And we will lock up every single one of the people who do what you describe, in a prison which will make them wish they'd never tried it. There'a always room in prison, especially when you are housed in a 5 x 10 foot solitary cell.

So go ahead, motherfucker. We will be happy to show you some American hospitality.

The funny thing is you're probably being quite sincere. So sincerely to you, from the rest of the world, fuck off, you joke.

Re:Easily Thwarted

[houghi]

Last time I visited the US I went through JFK. Took about 3 hours to get into the country. What I saw reminded me when I traveled to East-Berlin by car. The same mindless stares of the people. Some just sitting on a chair doing nothing. The inefficiency was amazing.

Get in line, wait for three hours. Have people read the paper you filled out. They look at it as if they understand what it says. Look at you passport and make it look important. Get a paper, with a stamp on it. Walk 10 meters (30 feet) and hand over the paper to somebody else who reads it as if I where able to falsify it somehow in those 10 meters.

"Yes, but there are sooo many people arriving in JFK". No, there where not. We where the only plane at that time. Luckily I did not have a connecting flight, because I would have missed it.

The sole reason was inefficiency.

On top of that, what social media should I now avoid to be connected with? Is /. social media? Is Usenet social media? Is Imgur.com?
The nice thing is that If I ever decide to go, I need to fear that I forgot something and they can deny me entry based on that.

Perhaps this is their way to refuse journalists to the cuntry (Not a spelling mistake)

Re:Easily Thwarted

[religionofpeas]

That's not how visas work. You can still get sent back despite having a perfectly valid visa

Sure, I simplified the process a bit, but that's irrelevant. The point is that they aren't going to spend an hour at the immigration desk going through your social media status, because that's already been processed.

Re:Easily Thwarted

[Archibald Buttle]

You're missing the point.

The "hour" that's been mentioned is a rough estimate for the amount of work that would need to be done to handle the visa application. It's not an estimated increase of the amount of time that it will take for passengers to travel through an airport.

There will be a significant increase in bureaucracy required to process all these visa applications, which has a significant cost associated with it.

As a potential visitor, having to deal with a more complicated visa application process is hassle, and not appealing. When the application process is draconian and unnecessarily invasive of the privacy of the applicant it is even less appealing.

Re:Easily Thwarted

[Anonymous Coward]

That's funny. That already isn't the case now, how do you suggest it will get better with more vetting?

Re:Easily Thwarted

[jareth-0205]

Your calculations are *waaay* off. Most of those people will be US citizens, which won't require a visa. The majority of the rest I would expect will travel on the ESTA visa-waiver programme, which doesn't require a visa.

Not to say that it isn't a terrible idea, but your calculations don't really add to the debate.

Re:Easily Thwarted

[Anonymous Coward]

That means 82,191 passengers need vetting each day.
Assuming they each take one hour (e.g. each person can do 8 per day) and you have 3 8 hour shifts, you would need 3,424 people just to handle the traffic at JFK.

I'm pretty sure those 3424 people won't be getting through 8 vettings in their third 8 hour shift of the day.

Re:Easily Thwarted

[religionofpeas]

The "hour" that's been mentioned is a rough estimate for the amount of work that would need to be done to handle the visa application. It's not an estimated increase of the amount of time that it will take for passengers to travel through an airport.

Ok. I got confused by the example based on JFK airport. But still, there are two wrong assumptions: 30 million passengers are not all foreigners. A lot of them will be travelling on a US passport. And the "hour" is grossly exaggerated, because all you have to do is run the account names through a computer, to see if they are associated with suspicious behavior that has been analyzed previously.

Re:Easily Thwarted

[religionofpeas]

Get a paper, with a stamp on it. Walk 10 meters (30 feet) and hand over the paper to somebody else who reads it as if I where able to falsify it somehow in those 10 meters.

The first check is done by an immigration officer. The second check is customs. Two different jobs with different responsibilities.

Re:Easily Thwarted

[turp182]

So it's actually a jobs programs, like Sarbanes Oxley and OFAC (both of which I'm more familiar with that I would like).

Now we see the wisdom. All of the people in the travel industry can migrate to the travel security industry!

Re:Easily Thwarted

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not that hard. You make a one-time database of all social media accounts, passport numbers, and e-mail addresses, and flag everyone that you consider suspicious (they probably already have that). When a visa applicant comes in, you run their history through the database. Add the data to their existing risk profile, and continue with standard procedures. Maybe you'll spend a bit more time on persons that are flagged, but in return you can afford to spend less time on people that aren't.

And now I'm waiting for someone to leak those infos because now they have a lot more specific info of each person...

Re:Easily Thwarted

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you're vastly underestimating support personal and management. I would guess it would be more in the 6-8k range instead of 4k.

Re:Easily Thwarted

[Anonymous Coward]

For some types of tourist visas you can apply for on the spot if you are from certain countries. In this case the vetting would need to happen right there at the immigration desk...

Re:Easily Thwarted

[Ihlosi]

The majority of the rest I would expect will travel on the ESTA visa-waiver programme, which doesn't require a visa.

The questionnaire for ESTA has grown to such a volume that is is, de facto, a visa vetting process.

Re:Easily Thwarted

[trevc]

You know that some people travel more than once, right?

Re:Easily Thwarted

[Anonymous Coward]

You precious retard

Re:Easily Thwarted

[Anonymous Coward]

The "airplane" may arrive but with less passengers. As you vet people you remove their ability to travel. That lowers the number of people travelling which then makes each carrier less viable than they were before. Add to that the airlines are liable for returning those refused entry and the costs mount. In the meantime thousands of immigrants still flow over your southern border from ultra-violent drug gangs. Your country is no safer but, congratulations, you now have no tourism industry.

SF-86!

[Anonymous Coward]

Anyone ever had to fill out an SF-86?
 
Try working on a TS clearance. Sigh.

Re:SF-86!

[Jzanu]

This is related to civil travel, not with optional and voluntary career choices that have predicable requirements.

Re:SF-86!

[AHuxley]

Travel and entering another nation is something another nation grants. Any nation can control who enters, why and how long they stay for.

Re:SF-86!

[gravewax]

yes an by making that travel overly complex with excessively onerous requirements it has economic knockon effects to tourism, business and diplomatic relations. For a president supposedly focused on jobs this is a very anti jobs approach.

Re:SF-86!

[Jzanu]

Precisely! Discouraging travel is how you sabotage trade and the productivity of a country. Trump is your worst enemy as an American - every day he does more to damage the standing of the USA and empower other nations to fill that gap.

Re:SF-86!

[TheOuterLinux]

It was also legal at one time in the U.S. to have to prove you can read (no standardized test) or you don't vote and you can guess who they were singling out at the time. What they're doing with visas is no different. People don't think about this (first world problems), but not everyone has internet or the time to set up social media accounts. And because everyone in the U.S. is a bunch of Facefarm users, you're more likely to weed-out those capable of thinking for themselves, which is dangerous for anyone in Trump's circles. This has nothing to do with "terrorism," just the conservative-minded trying not to deal with their phobias.

Re:SF-86!

[ShanghaiBill]

Trump has already imposed travel restrictions that have been estimated to cost more than $7B annually in lost tourism spending. These new restrictions will add to that.

More than 14 million American work in the tourism industry. That is about 200 times more than the number of coal miners.

Re:SF-86!

[TheOuterLinux]

Another thing, never personify a country. That's how bureaucrats sleep at night.

Re:SF-86!

[Fire_Wraith]

Worse, what impact do you think it will have on business travel?
It's even worse if other countries start imposing reciprocal restrictions on travelers from the USA. What do you think will happen to global businesses that need to be able to send people around the world, if/when it becomes a nightmare to travel to and from the U.S.? All of a sudden it starts to become a lot more attractive to move your headquarters and any international operations to Europe or Asia, and reduce the U.S. to a subsidiary that handles only domestic business.

Re:SF-86!

[AHuxley]

Re 'but not everyone has internet or the time to set up social media accounts. "
Applications will need email in most normal nations to get, send and track their paperwork to enter the USA in 2017.
If a person can afford to travel, study, move to, live in or visit the USA, they can afford some ISP in their own nation for the needed documents.
Entering the USA will just need a set of documents anyone can get in their own nation.
Having a few "social media accounts" over the years is not needed to enter the USA. Telling the USA that the social media accounts never existed is the issue.

Re:SF-86!

[Anonymous Coward]

Idiot. TSA is illegal. Vetting non-citizens in these ways is unorthodox but not explicitly illegal.
br>Using your argument, I can say that fetching a glass of water is optional, so dying of dehydration is OK.

Re: SF-86!

[Anonymous Coward]

So you are planning war?

Re:SF-86!

[rtb61]

Meh, tourists are a pain in the arse, always demand access to the best locations, driving out the locals and seasonal employment never really provides economic stability. Always remember no matter where you go, people there are wanting to leave and visit some place else, you are not special no matter how badgered hotel staff treat you, you can holiday at home for a year for what holidaying overseas costs you in a month, tourism is one of the biggest marketing scams of all.

Asking for social media information is a really bad idea, it's like asking about hobbies, what the fuck business of the United States government is it, social media is not factual media, it is an illusion people present. How about if you don't play social media, do you become a suspicious person, how about if you get it wrong, various places you signed up to and forgot, do they send you to prison for getting it wrong. How about if they claim you do, when you claim you don't, do they let in country only to lock you up in a for profit prison whilst they sort out the case for years, instead of just giving you the option to leave.

I understand the US is pretty fucked up when it comes to deportation, needed to lock you up in for profit prisons for some time, rather than just putting you on a plane and sending you back as soon as possible and sending the bill to your countries government.

Re: SF-86!

[Anonymous Coward]

Russia does not require your personal Social media account details. This is a huge disincentive to many travellers especially when the US has such a huge reliance on tourism for millions of jobs.

Re: SF-86!

[Anonymous Coward]

and Russia has a tourism industry a tenth the size of the US. If you would like to wipe out almost a trillion dollars from the economy Trump is going the right way about it.

Re: SF-86!

[gweilo8888]

Mod parent up insightful please, someone. Loads of people talking about tourism here, but very few acknowledging that this will also have a *huge* and negative impact on business travel -- and that's more likely than not going to result in some business going to other countries instead of us, in the long run.

Re:SF-86!

[AmiMoJo]

Please, carry on America... The rest of the world is enjoying the boost in tourism. The more you turn away, the more come to pump money into our tourist industries instead!

Re:SF-86!

[Anonymous Coward]

From the last panel of SMBC

Do you think we should acknowledge the difference between "should" and "can"?

A lot of what is coming out of the current administration appears to be hovering around the "technically legal" line.
That line is very often beyond the "the right thing to do" line.

Yes, we know that any nation can control who enters, why and how long they stay for.
Any nation can also have any laws they like and execute people they don't like as long as they aren't part of the international treaties regulating that.
That doesn't mean it is a justification for doing so.

Re:SF-86!

[Anonymous Coward]

That money stays in those countries and is less money you have to give out in foreign aid. #evensteven

Re: SF-86!

[Anonymous Coward]

I have hundreds of social media accounts. Possibly thousands, depending on your exact definition of "social media". They're all in KeePass. I don't actually 'use' any of them, they're all one-time accounts for using various online services that require you to login via them. Same with email addresses.

Quite happy to hand them all over to T-SS-A agents for review.

Re:SF-86!

[infolation]

What do you think will happen to global businesses that need to be able to send people around the world.

Less air travel = less climate change. Trump is simply attempting to reverse the effects of withdrawing from the Paris Accord.

Re:SF-86!

[AHuxley]

Supporting or funding a banned group and then wanting to enter the another nation is not something that should go undetected.

Re:SF-86!

[stealth_finger]

if/when it becomes a nightmare to travel to and from the U.S.

What do you mean if/when? This happened already. From what I understand even traveling within the states is a nightmare. Before, I used to think I couldn't care less about visiting America, but it turns out I could.

Re: SF-86!

[Anonymous Coward]

So does China

Re:SF-86!

[Anonymous Coward]

Trump has already imposed travel restrictions that have been estimated to cost more than $7B annually in lost tourism spending. These new restrictions will add to that.

More than 14 million American work in the tourism industry. That is about 200 times more than the number of coal miners.

And what's the economic cost of all the Obama regulations that Trump has promised to eliminate?

If the travel restrictions Trump has imposed cost $7 billion, what's the cost of Obama-imposed regulations like Net Neutrality, CFPB, regulations on oil and gas drilling, regulations on electrical power generation, etc.?

And what about Obamacare regulations? How many people work in the THREE FUCKING TRILLION DOLLAR-A-YEAR healthcare industry? If you're bitching about the cost of some travel regulations on the piddly little travel industry, you must be screaming at the top of your lungs for the repeal of Obamacare because of it's economic impact on the tremendously larger healthcare industry. Right. RIGHT? Or maybe you just cherry-pick bullshit to bash Trump?

If Trump's regulations are so damn economically onerous, what the hell should we make of the huge magnitude of Obama's regulations?

Today, Friday the 30th, is the last federal workday of 2016.

And the printed version of the Federal Register, the daily depository of all things regulatory, has topped off at 97,110 pages, by far an all time record.

Skips and blanks will lower the official count a tad later when the National Archives issues final data, but not by much.

That dwarfs last year's count of 80,260 pages, and it shatters the 2010 all-time record of 81,405 by 15,705 pages.

Indeed, the 2010 level was passed November 17, making each day since a new record-breaker.

It's true that the Federal Register is not a great gauge, since it's full of notices and such. But the sheer magnitude of it signals a new era in the Administrative State as opposed to a representative one, and a challenge to new president Donald Trump to do something about a runaway federal government.

We noted here last week that until Obama, ninety-thousand pages was unheard of. Up until this year, the 80,000 page mark shocked, having been passed just three times (in 2010, 2011 and 2015, all by Obama). In fact of the 10 highest-ever counts, Obama holds seven.

Re: SF-86!

[TheOuterLinux]

I really doubt the TSA agent himself/herself looks at a person's phone. If they are, they won't be for long. What is more likely to happen (or soon) is they plug your device into a computer and it "greps" for keywords in unencrypted metadata (or encrypted if there's a hex string pattern they are aware of), so they actually can look through in exported CSV file and various other types of all of your entries in just seconds while you're busy passing through an x-ray. KeePass uses a database file like every thing else these days. Matter of fact, it wouldn't surprise me if the USB "phone chargers" near the waiting areas do more than just charge.

A working example:

• 1.) "We need your password for your device."
• 2.) "We've noticed you have KeePass installed. We need your password for that too."
• 3.) Databases --> Export CSV file.
• 4.) In a terminal or GUI front end:
• • cat /path/to/csv/file/ | grep -wFfn keywords.txt
• For your photos (EXIF data; I think this will work):
  • search="$1"; for i in *.jpg; do echo "------------------$i----------------"; count=$(exiftool "$i" | awk '/city/ || /location/ ||/country/ ||/keywords/'; grep -ic "${search}"); if [ $count -gt 0 ]; then echo "String found in file: $i"; fi; done

And if you're lucky, they don't try " > We'reKeepingThis.txt" at the end. The EXIF data is information your phone stores about each photo that is usually embedded in the photo itself. This includes things like date taken, place taken (GPS), and even the camera used just in case it's a shared file. However, this is why Apple gets so much crap from the FBI; they do not store this information that way by default; there's a separate database file photos pair with. I think you have to be rooted/jailbroken if you want access to those databases using third-party software. And if 3rd party software without needing to root does exists, then I wonder if your consent to search could void an EULA. However, also realize that with cloud computing and storage on the rise, that would explain the push for social media accounts while people don't fully understand the meaning of it. That's what you get for using software that needs an API key rather than a stand-alone. They can just pressure developers to put in a backdoor, to which if you've noticed lately, many countries have been doing just that. There would be no need to grep; all the data they care about could be in plain site. And in case anyone reading this doesn't understand "grep" and thinks there's something advanced to it, realize that it has been around since 1974. Though if you got a time machine, the advanced options wouldn't have existed until the early 1980's. Though, for photos, EXIF didn't exist until 2003. And yes, if it's digital, takes photos, and newer than 2003, those photos contain metadata. Hope you hung-on to your 1990s DSLR and some floppies.

Re:SF-86!

[jbengt]

Worse, what impact do you think it will have on business travel? It's even worse if other countries start imposing reciprocal restrictions on travelers from the USA. What do you think will happen to global businesses that need to be able to send people around the world, if/when it becomes a nightmare to travel to and from the U.S.?

You're right! It's all a plot to make Skype more valuable!

Re:SF-86!

[jbengt]

And what's the economic cost of all the Obama regulations [forbes.com] that Trump has promised to eliminate?

Most 'Obama' regulations, like net neutrality, conservation measures, 'obamacare', etc.were intended to have net positive impacts on the economy in the long run. And most of them would. Unfortunately, it's impossible to do a double-blind study on the effects of legislation and regulation on the economy, so no one will ever be convinced of the viewpoint other than their own.

Re:SF-86!

[jbengt]

An e-mail account is not 'social media' in any commonly accepted definition of terms.

Re:SF-86!

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem is that most of the tourism workers are temporary foreign workers. You would know this if you had been on vacation in the past 20 years. So, not worried about American jobs here.

Re: SF-86!

[Anonymous Coward]

What!?! Even traveling within the states is a nightmare?

Stop reading hysterical fantasies of what we in the U.S. call fake news.

Re: SF-86!

[Ihlosi]

Hope you hung-on to your 1990s DSLR and some floppies.

... are eight inch floppies okay?

Re: SF-86!

[Wintermute__]

Wrong. China asks none of that when applying for a visa from the US. Been there done that. Passport, a recent photo, and where will you be staying in China, that's it. Visa is good for 10 years.

Re:SF-86!

[Anonymous Coward]

Trump has already imposed travel restrictions that have been estimated to cost more than $7B annually in lost tourism spending. These new restrictions will add to that.

More than 14 million American work in the tourism industry. That is about 200 times more than the number of coal miners.

Off topic [but, hey, I'm an AC]: in the future nobody is gonna import the oil or coal you produce. I can see fossil fuels being BANNED in two decades.

Re: SF-86!

[Anonymous Coward]

I too enjoy the long lines at TSA, with more aggressive patdowns, for a domestic flight

Re:SF-86!

[Anonymous Coward]

as a freelancer working for many agencies I usually have a myname@theagency.com email address, it's a competitive field so there are a lot of myname@someagency.com, and yes most of them have "social presence"

Re: SF-86!

[Anonymous Coward]

perhaps you should get out of your mothers basement and actually try travelling, it is more difficult to move around by plane in the US than it is to enter through the borders of most countries now.

Re: SF-86!

[TheOuterLinux]

Let's see TSA bring out an IBM Series/1 Computer. At least we will know where the nuke maintainers work when not at the DoD.

Re:SF-86!

[Anonymous Coward]

and if you had a fucking clue you would also know that even the tourism companies that employ foreign workers are owned by local businesses who in turn pay wages and also get all their supplies, accommodation etc from local businesses. you are a fucking clueless moron.

Re: SF-86!

[Anonymous Coward]

Flying inside the US is a horrible experience. Other forms of travel are OK.

Sub-divisions in Europe

[QuietLagoon]

I worked for a company that had a few sub-divisions in Europe. Knowing the managers and Engineers there as I do, I'd suspect that they would not abide by such a request if they were to travel to HQ here in the US on a business trip.

So now the proper functioning of my company is jeopardized?

Re:Sub-divisions in Europe

[sit1963nz]

No, you will need to go there.
So instead of the US making money off tourists, the US will become the tourists and spend their money in other countries.

And as for international tourism to the USA in general, watch the numbers fall. Our family won't be back, too much aggravation and risk
Far easier to go to Europe and Asia.

Re:Sub-divisions in Europe

[Anonymous Coward]

So instead of the US making money off tourists, the US will become the tourists and spend their money in other countries.

Nope, outgoing tourism is falling as well. US is making travel hell for everybody. It is worse for foreigners, yes, but it is still pretty bad for its own citizens.

Re:Sub-divisions in Europe

[_merlin]

Your post-9/11 bullshit is already keeping people out of the US. How about you do something about it? Land of the free, home of the brave my arse. Home of the scared shitless. Do you even remember the '80s? US used to carry on about how the USSR was oppressive because you needed papers to travel. Travelling in the US is worse than that now. You need to present papers, and take your shoes off, and not lock your bag, and not take any liquids with you, and so on. If your name is similar to a name on a secret list, you're denied the right to fly and there's jack shit you can do about it. US used to carry on about DDR's mass surveillance where they were paying everyone to spy on everyone else as though it was some great evil as well. Yet you now wiretap all domestic communications. You've got your secret prisons where you disappear people, you've got your leaked torture incidents (although you seem to be getting better at covering that up), you punish people for embarrassing the government rather than actually addressing the issues that make the leaks embarrassing. It's just not worth visiting the US. You get treated like a criminal at the border, and you know you're visiting the most hypocritical country on earth.

Re:Sub-divisions in Europe

[Anonymous Coward]

The numbers have already been falling though. We've lost Billions since Trump took Office.

Re:Sub-divisions in Europe

[Anonymous Coward]

Unfortunately, there was a group of Republican's in the 50's/60's who took one look at the Soviet Union, and rather than being afraid, they were ENVIOUS. (Cheney/Rumsfeld etc.) And you're now getting the country they wanted. And anyone who voted for them, and Trump (which is a continuation of it all), are getting everything they deserve - not that they'll understand/know about it until it's too damn late, (probably).

Re:Sub-divisions in Europe

[Anonymous Coward]

Magic post Merlin, its sad watching the rush to international irrelevance. The US is one huge ponzi scheme which is bound to collapse and drown in its own greed eventually.

Re:Sub-divisions in Europe

[Anonymous Coward]

Looks very much like it. Giants die slowly, but the signs are there.

One thing I wonder is if I ever travel to the US again, would I need to list "AC on Slashdot" as a "social media handle"? Because that one could be a bit tricky...

Re:Sub-divisions in Europe

[turp182]

In the US, when I got married in 1998 I left my driver's license in my car for my honeymoon in New Orleans, having to fly there.

They didn't even ask for ID at the time. They asked two questions regarding luggage and had an X-Ray machine. I was 25 at the time, but on honeymoon was only carded and denied entrance to a bar one time the entire trip. Returning home, no ID check.

Back then you could give/sell your ticket to anyone else and no one cared.

I could not repeat that trip today.

That was freedom. Oh, everyone, including US citizens, when flying, are treated like criminals, inside the country and at the borders.

Re:Sub-divisions in Europe

[Anonymous Coward]

The French prime minister just made an open invitation for US doctors, engineers and scientists to emigrate to France, so I guess you could set up an office there if you don't already have one.

Re:Sub-divisions in Europe

[Anonymous Coward]

You've got your secret prisons where you disappear people, you've got your leaked torture incidents (although you seem to be getting better at covering that up), you punish people for embarrassing the government rather than actually addressing the issues that make the leaks embarrassing. It's just not worth visiting the US. You get treated like a criminal at the border, and you know you're visiting the most hypocritical country on earth.

Oh, that's rich my little Aussie retard. Your entire fucking nation is a penal colony which is also moving to the right. You have absolutely no room to talk.

Re:Sub-divisions in Europe

[UnknownSoldier]

Is this the same Theatre Security Airport (TSA) that gave us this bullshit ?

Airport Logic

3 oz + 3 oz + 3 oz = Allowed
9 oz = Not allowed

--
When did the USA turn into a land of wussies?

Re:Sub-divisions in Europe

[unixisc]

No, you will need to go there. So instead of the US making money off tourists, the US will become the tourists and spend their money in other countries. And as for international tourism to the USA in general, watch the numbers fall. Our family won't be back, too much aggravation and risk Far easier to go to Europe and Asia.

Uh, 'tourism' is not the purpose of such visits. It's to have conferences that enable smoother functioning in any company.

Tourism is a separate industry all its own, and there, people will decide whether to come or not based on a variety of factors. Of course, if they're Trump haters, they won't even bother, but if they're not, a whole slew of other factors will come into play.

Re:Sub-divisions in Europe

[_merlin]

I can still catch an Australian domestic flight without showing ID, without taking my shoes off, and wife a six-pack of beer in my carry-on luggage. I can still travel to/from China, Hong Kong, Japan, Korea, Philippines, Viet Nam, hell the entire region, without this bullshit about entire travel histories and handing over social media details. How much of the world have you actually seen?

Re:Sub-divisions in Europe

[dinfinity]

Well said.

It's time for the citizens of the United States to wake the fuck up and smell the shithole they've let themselves be maneuvered into.

Re:Sub-divisions in Europe

[Anonymous Coward]

You should really try southern Brazil, Chile, Argentina, Uruguay...

Re:Sub-divisions in Europe

[Anonymous Coward]

You put your wife in your carry-on? That sounds dangerous. What if she catches fire?

Like who remembers

[Anonymous Coward]

Their MySpace handle? //submit Anonymous Coward on all the forms? -T

Yeah, right

[hyades1]

Thank god these nefarious terrorists have social media profiles under their real names, and have no clue about meta-data.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ne7DnmdilEg

Dear world,

[Anonymous Coward]

Please don't come here. We really hate the "other". We strip you of any respect or dignity on the way in, demand the ability to track you every move, and now we want the ability to impersonate you to your friends / family / co-workers / etc. just because we feel like it.

As always we justify this based on a 15+ year old incident that's had it's victims abused as political chips, used justification for giving our enemies exactly what they want at every turn, invading and destroying countries that had nothing to do with it, and just in general being a complete ass to ourselves and the world at large.

Have we made this clear yet? I don't think we have. We need more random BS to make us all more "safe". How about knockout gas the second the engines start? Or maybe we just just start abducting people who we think are bad without proof? I don't think bombing the shit out of people has done it's job yet, so let's get right on doing more of it, it's bound to work sometime. And if you think that laptop ban isn't coming to a terminal near you soon enough, guess again. We'd actually like you to strip naked and be held in chains during the trip, just to be sure. We're still debating on the induced coma idea though. Also we'd like to do it for all forms of transportation, not just planes. BTW: Those data privacy agreements with the EU? WTF makes you think we'd ignore such a treasure trove of personal information on our citize.... err... terrorists? We will look at that data as much as we want, and there's nothing you can do about it. (No seriously, we're hard at work to make sure you'll never be able to remove our firmware level rootkits. Signatures and all that.)

You have less rights than our own citizens and we really could care less about their rig.... err... privileges. Remember that.

Yours (because you have no other choice),
- The US Government.

Re:Dear world,

[Anonymous Coward]

We don't like the other. Starting with you. Please get your stinking ass out of the country. And don't ever show your face in Macon County. New Yorkers and other foreigners tend to disappear here.

Re: Dear world,

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh look another Russian stooge from Macon County posting as AC!

Re:Dear world,

[unixisc]

Ironically, none of this would be needed if the US could just go ahead w/ Trump's campaign era Muslim ban. All of the fear is of Muslims - original or converts - pulling off a terror attack. But the mere travel ban, which affects not even 10% of Muslims, was sabotaged by judicial runts. Since the US government can't say. 'We couldn't stop this terror attack b'cos these judges stopped us', they are forced to inconvenience everybody who needs/wants to come into the country.

The exact wording

[Anonymous Coward]

"Please provide your unique user name for any websites or applications you have used to create or share content (photos, videos, status updates, etc.) as part of
a public profile within the last five years"

I'd be tempted to give them random DeviantArt accounts to trawl through.

TSA, Hah

[Anonymous Coward]

They would have to...
1) escalate to a supervisor for every decision, what a nightmare scenario
2) be able to read. from what I've experienced this might be a serious problem

Good riddance Paris!

[Anonymous Coward]

They want us to give money, meanwhile they cheat to achieve compliance!! (Ex. Audi)

It's just a big scam and it doesn't help the planet in any way..

Suck it now!

No longer care

[sit1963nz]

Having been to the US a number of times we as a family have made the choice not to go there again, its simply not worth the aggravation.

We can fly to Europe via Hong Kong, Singapore, Dubai and other transit stops, there is no need to go via the US or even near the US. International flights may end up shifting to Canada/Mexico to attract customers.
This of course also means flying on non-US airlines.
It means we spend our money else where. We, outside the USA, get to vote with our wallets, and we are.

Become isolationist, build your walls, hell even shoot yourself in the other foot, we are no longer worried, the real harm is to the US, not us.

Re:No longer care

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh noes!

Re:No longer care

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you me?

Re:No longer care

[Anonymous Coward]

You do realize that tourism brings in billions to the US? Local business owners in San Francisco are currently losing money due to Trump's policies. Short term, most locals won't notice. If it goes on longer, the locals that are smart enough, will miss the foreigners.

Re:No longer care

[Anonymous Coward]

Dunno what San Francisco you're living it, dude.

Re:No longer care

[Anonymous Coward]

Help. We are being held hostage by a small minded, small handed Oompa Loompa. Please don't abandon us.

Signed,
The sane members of the US population.

Re:No longer care

[phantomfive]

If it goes on longer, the locals that are smart enough, will miss the foreigners.

I don't know, maybe we could turn Fisherman's Wharf into a nice park where you can see sealions.

Re: No longer care

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh? How do you expect Agent Trumpski to get your economy to 4% growth without trade dipshit? You do actually rather need the rest of the world. You are only 300M consumers, so yeah, keep talking shit about the other 6.9billion consumers in the rest of the world, that will really encourage us to buy what you're selling.

For a nation that proves itself on entrepreneurship, you really do not seem to get the basics of trade. You can't sell stuff if no one will trade with you - you know, like North Korea.

Re:No longer care

[Anonymous Coward]

good luck living in poverty with no jobs.

Re:No longer care

[Anonymous Coward]

Weird, the twice we had been the SanFran we found the locals very welcoming.

I was also very impressed with some of the businesses there and how they supplied some of the homeless a free meal.

Re:No longer care

[Anonymous Coward]

So will the government, all those tourists going out to Alcatraz, paying them money which they use for the up keep.

They will also miss all those sale taxes.

Re:No longer care

[Anonymous Coward]

Cool. They fed the homeless, but did they bother to clean up the homeless shit on the sidewalk? No? I didn't think so . . .

Re:No longer care

[Anonymous Coward]

On a grand scale - if more wealth leaves the US than enters it - it's in trouble. Which has been happening for a while, and this will accelerate. At some point the US dollar won't be worth very much - and then the cost of imports skyrockets. If it's own manufacturing/exports doesn't keep up (by becoming a 3rd world country, since that's what it has to compete against), then it'll sink further...

Now, because of the scale and resources the US has, this will take a lot longer than other countries did (e.g. Japan), but it's still possible.

Re:No longer care

[stealth_finger]

Good, we don't want you faggots here anyway. We don't need the rest of the world, and it fucking feels good!

The rest of the world where all your shit gets built on the cheap then flogged back to you suckers for premium price because you can't possibly afford to build shit yourselves these days? I think you'll find it's the rest of the world that doesn't need you.

Re: No longer care

[stealth_finger]

I on the other hand am now looking at the USA as a holiday destination again now that an actual adult that cares about security is in charge.

Security theatre is a totally different thing.

Re:No longer care

[stealth_finger]

If it goes on longer, the locals that are smart enough, will miss the foreigners.

I don't know, maybe we could turn Fisherman's Wharf into a nice park where you can see sealions.

Yeah, you're going to need something to do when a whole bunch of your bars, hotels and restaurants have shut down because there's fuck all business for them.

Re:No longer care

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh look, a little edgelord is branching out from /pol/ on 4chan. Bless.

Re: No longer care

[Maritz]

now that an actual adult that cares about security is in charge.

"Hey look at all this great intelligence I got about laptops with bombs in them. That's from an Israeli asset in ISIS. This guy. Look. Here's his real name. Here's his handlers. Amazing isn't it?"

Re:No longer care

[Maritz]

All I can think to say to the sane USians is: get the fuck out and vote next time, dickheads.

Re: No longer care

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh? How do you expect Agent Trumpski to get your economy to 4% growth without trade dipshit?

Easy! Have you ever heard of inventing numbers without any relation of real data?

Re:No longer care

[hughbar]

Me too. Who needs the Disneyland Anal Probe Experience? I used to go there a lot, like the people for their generosity and optimism, but they've manage to elect a nutcase. Admittedly the choices were pretty bad, but Hilary the Hawk was slightly better and capable of taking advice from informed aides too.

Re:No longer care

[phantomfive]

build housing and residents will be happier.

Re:No longer care

[CylanR77]

the locals that are smart enough will miss the foreigners

What a shame. They might have to resort to reaching out to the vast numbers of American citizens that live between the coasts.

If the SF store owners can get over the cultural barriers, that is...

Re: No longer care

[Anonymous Coward]

I on the other hand am now looking at the USA as a holiday destination again now that an actual adult that cares about security is in charge.

I call bullshit. Really.

Re:No longer care

[gravewax]

unless you are also introducing a huge UBI I think most of those residents will be pissed off at being unemployed.

Re:No longer care

[phantomfive]

In this hypothetical, most of the residents wouldn't be unemployed, because tourism is only a small portion of the San Francisco economy.

Re:No longer care

[Anonymous Coward]

ignorance is bliss I guess. San fran has a huge reliance on tourism, both directly and indirectly. think of the supplies, accommodation, entertainment, food industries and all those that in turn supply those. No tourism would be a massive kick in the balls and result in lower wages for those that keep their jobs and unemployment/failed business for many others.

Re:No longer care

[Evil Kerek]

You're leaving off 'and we have to worry about people killing us in most of those places'.

Sorry, we don't _want_ to be like you.

And keep dreaming - we are the only ones holding the wolves at bay. People like you, living in a fantasy land, make me WANT to completely pull out...from the UN, from NATO, from SK...let you sort your shit out and see how long you survive.

You've left off where you're from, but chances are, the only reason you aren't speaking Russian right now, is because of us.

Past that. Whatever. Everyone is throwing up a bunch of 'what if' and 'this is going to happen'. Give me a break. We want to the right to check you out IF we feel the need. About half the country kinda likes the idea of controlling who comes in. The other half have the heads in the sand.

Calexit

[ChunderDownunder]

this won't impact the new People's Democratic Republic of California, will it?

Re:Calexit

[Anonymous Coward]

The national anthem of the new nation will be Tupac Shakur's "California Love" to depict the essential forms of Cali freedoms. Come as you are, sleep your desert vehicle near the bedside.

Re:Calexit

[ausekilis]

I'd say "Texit" since Texas is the only state that has the right to secede... but it's a red state and their leadership is every bit as out of touch with reality. I swear, Republicans and Reality aren't even kissing cousins anymore.

Re:Calexit

[Anonymous Coward]

Vermont, too, I think.

http://historybuff.com/states-used-countries-hawaii-texas-vermont-NlKpDLKWAJY6

Re:Calexit

[shutdown -p now]

No state has a "right to secede". Some states claim said right, but no such right is recognized by the Constitution under its current interpretation. So any state attempting to secede would have to negotiate for such a right - or do so by extra-legal means.

More distraction

[Anonymous Coward]

Over in the inquiring they're trying to get to the bottom of this meeting Jared had with the Russian spy banker.

http://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-europe-40128001/bbc-quizzes-russia-banker-who-met-kushner

The one the bankers says was a totally normal business meeting for a property deal, and Jared says was a Trump related meeting to make connections to Putin (because this bank is Putin controlled, his cover story has to acknowledge the fact, but why would you need such a obsfucated communications channel to Putin?).

We learn that Jared wanted a new backcomms link secured by Russia, we learn he wanted it sorted at a meeting abroad with trusted intermediaries outside the US (trusted by Trump and Moscow, but not CIA). So did he get his link?

Putin would certainly have provided it, it gives him incredible influence, and having a secret illegal backlink bypassing monitoring, would also give him leverage.

I ask again, did Jared get his Moscow secured connection to Russia. Do they now have a new comms channel bypassing the rest of the Executive/Congress/Senate? Because two US spies were arrested six days after Trump got access to unredacted pee memo, which named a current FSB man and a former FSB man as source, and they fit the profile of the two arrested.

It's pretty obvious that Trump gave the Russians the names, but through what channel.

Re:More distraction

[Anonymous Coward]

Over in the inquiring they're trying to get to the bottom of this meeting Jared had with the Russian spy banker.

http://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-europe-40128001/bbc-quizzes-russia-banker-who-met-kushner

The one the bankers says was a totally normal business meeting for a property deal, and Jared says was a Trump related meeting to make connections to Putin (because this bank is Putin controlled, his cover story has to acknowledge the fact, but why would you need such a obsfucated communications channel to Putin?).

We learn that Jared wanted a new backcomms link secured by Russia, we learn he wanted it sorted at a meeting abroad with trusted intermediaries outside the US (trusted by Trump and Moscow, but not CIA). So did he get his link?

Putin would certainly have provided it, it gives him incredible influence, and having a secret illegal backlink bypassing monitoring, would also give him leverage.

I ask again, did Jared get his Moscow secured connection to Russia. Do they now have a new comms channel bypassing the rest of the Executive/Congress/Senate? Because two US spies were arrested six days after Trump got access to unredacted pee memo, which named a current FSB man and a former FSB man as source, and they fit the profile of the two arrested.

It's pretty obvious that Trump gave the Russians the names, but through what channel.

Inside Obama’s Secret Outreach to Russia (Dec. 31 2014)

https://www.bloomberg.com/view...

Obama failed with all of the US government. Team Trump succeeded before he was even in office. That is called winning. Now spin away.

Re:More distraction

[Anonymous Coward]

Treason is different than outreach, and collusion with Russia's criminal attack on our democracy.

Your false equivalence doesn't diminish Donald Trump's treasonous crime spree with Russia.

If you are an American, then piss off traitor. We've got enough of you Russian puppets in the White House.

Re:More distraction

[Anonymous Coward]

Dec. 10, 2015
Lt. Gen Michael Flynn is part of a panel discussion in Moscow for the 10th anniversary of government-backed Russia Today, for which he receives payment (The Washington Post, Aug. 15, 2016). Officials notice an increase in communication between Flynn and the Russian ambassador to the United States, Sergey Kislyak, following the Russia Today event (CNN, May 19, 2017).

Late 2015
British intelligence agencies detect suspicious interactions between Russia and Trump aides that they pass on to American intelligence agencies (The Guardian, April 13, 2017).

March 19, 2016
Hillary Clinton campaign chairman John Podesta is sent an email that encourages him to change his email password, likely precipitating the hack of his account (CBS News, Oct. 28, 2016).

March 21
During an interview with The Post, Trump lists Carter Page as part of his foreign policy team. Page had been recommended by a son-in-law of President Richard Nixon, New York Republican Party Chairman Ed Cox (WP, March 21, 2016).

March 28
Political veteran Paul Manafort is hired to help the Trump campaign manage the delegate process for the Republican National Convention. He is recommended by Trump confidante Roger Stone (New York Times, March 28, 2016). Before joining the campaign, Manafort lobbied on behalf of Oleg Deripaska, an ally of Russian President Vladimir Putin. That deal followed a memo from Manafort in which he offered a plan that could "greatly benefit the Putin Government." His relationship with Deripaska ended in 2009 (Associated Press, March 22, 2017). Manafort also worked on behalf of the Russia-friendly Party of Regions in Ukraine, helping guide the party's leader, Viktor Yanukovych, to the country's presidency. Yanukovych would later be ousted. (WP, Aug. 19, 2016)

April 27
Sen. Jeff Sessions (R-Ala.) may have met with Kislyak at a reception at the Mayflower Hotel in Washington before a foreign-policy speech given by Trump (CNN, May 31, 2017).

June
At a closed-door meeting of foreign policy experts and the prime minister of India, Page praises Putin effusively (WP, Aug. 5, 2016).

June 15
A hacker calling himself "Guccifer 2.0" releases the Democratic National Committee's research file on Donald Trump (Gawker, June 15, 2016). News reports already link the stolen data to Russian hackers (WP, June 14, 2016).

July
At some point this month, the FBI begins investigating possible links between the Russian government and Trump's campaign (Wired, March 20, 2017).

July 7
Page travels to Moscow to give a lecture (NYT, April 19, 2017). The Trump campaign approved the trip (USA Today, March 7, 2017). This trip was likely the catalyst for the FBI's request for a secret surveillance warrant to track PageÃs communications (WP, May 25, 2017).

July 11 or 12
Trump campaign staffers intervene with the committee developing the Republican Party's national security platform to remove language call arming Ukraine against Russian aggression. (July 18, 2016).

July 18
At an event hosted by the Heritage Foundation as part of the Republican National Convention, Sessions and Kislyak have a brief conversation (WP, March 2, 2017).

Flynn delivers a speech at the Republican convention, joining in the crowd's "Lock her up!" chant. "If I, a guy who knows this business, if I did a tenth of what she did," Flynn said, "I would be in jail today" (C-Span, July 18, 2016).

July 22
Wikileaks releases emails stolen from the Democratic National Committee (WP, July 22, 2017).

Jul. 27
During his last news conference of the campaign, Trump asks Russia to release emails hacked from Clinton's private server. He later says that he was joking (WP, July, 27, 2016).

Aug. 9
Flynn Intel Group, a consulting firm founded by Flynn, signs a contract with Inovo BV, a firm run by a Turkish businessman close to Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, for more than $500,000 (Daily Caller, Nov. 11, 2016).

Aug. 15
The New York Times reports on secret ledger

Dumb

[Anonymous Coward]

Depressing. I had high hopes for Trump. Really! But everyday more insane shit like this!!!
 
What this will do is keep anyone out of the US who has ever ranted on social media, ever called a politician a name, criticized any government, logged onto a porn site, or ever said something they regretted like the red sweater Jennifer Lawrence butthole guy.

Already affecting scientific conference locations

[Anonymous Coward]

The ISMRM refuses to hold conferences within the US because of Trump. The next half decade of planned conferences have two North American locations, both in Canada.

Down the list

[AHuxley]

"request all prior passport numbers"
That is great for people who have laundered their past by getting some new state to become their only "travel" document after a few years of entry and telling a good story.
A new passport granted by some easy third party nation will not be able to cover for past issues on another travel document.

"five years' worth of social media handles"
That will allow for a deeper understanding of a persons politics, who they fund, support, like and who their friends are.
Lots of images in a nation few people can get into? Why is that person in that nation over the years?
Posing under a banned groups banner, flag? A photo with a banned group?
No bringing a banned groups supporters into the USA.
"biographical information including addresses, employment and travel history"
That shows a person has a job, can support themselves while they are in the USA, what study they did. What they present is a real not a fictional story to get travel paperwork from their own nation or created to be given new paperwork from a third nation.

Lie to the USA and no visa application. Why should a person of interest be able to lie, omit, hide support for groups of interest or friends who support groups of interest to the USA?
Real people with any education, a normal work history and a normal life should have no issues with any of the questions.

Re:Down the list

[DavidRawling]

Really? Because in the last five years I must have created or posted content (as described) on, I would guess, more than three hundred websites. Of those I probably remember ... 10? 15? at most. I certainly don't remember all the "unique usernames" I've used. Do you know every place you've posted a Disqus comment? Where your facebook comments ended up? What if you don't have a facecrap account - but someone with your name does? You think they're going to be able to tell the difference? Or even care they're wrong?

All prior passport numbers? I don't know. How do I find the number on a passport that expired 20 years ago and which was inadvertently destroyed ten years ago?

I don't remember every single address I've lived at (sure, the ones I own, or I was on a lease, or lived at as a child - generally fine). Time periods? No chance. Nearest YEAR at best. If I were a frequent traveller, that info would be just as foggy. Did I travel to Bali in March or May? NFI. And the list goes on.

Why should a person of interest be able to lie, omit, hide support for groups of interest or friends who support groups of interest to the USA?

Why should the other 99.999% be effectively forced to lie (either directly or by omission) because some bureaucrat somewhere in the US has a hardon for trawling through personal data yet with arguably ZERO chance of unearthing anything useful. Do you really think that a terrywrist ISN'T GOING TO LIE?!

Re:Down the list

[AHuxley]

Re 'What if you don't have .... account" thats fine. Why would not using a service be an issue? People just have to not lie about supporting or funding banned groups online under different accounts.
Re 'All prior passport numbers?" Most normal nations will be able to give that to their own citizens. Most normal nations keep their passports and passport numbers very secure. So that passport list would be an enquiry a person can be expected to make in their own nation given they have a passport in 2017.
If a person can now get a passport they can get any past passport details too.
Most governments are really helpful with questions surrounding the complex documents they issue and hold details like that for a long time.
The "address" question is to see if a person worked or lived in a nation they claimed, got educated in or retired to.
Years or a decade missing by some person in some third nation is interesting to the USA if the past passports do not have such details.
Did the interesting person have another passport? Did the person use another persons identity for a while? Is the person a dual citizen and moving around on another passport?

Re:Down the list

[religionofpeas]

Re 'All prior passport numbers?" Most normal nations will be able to give that to their own citizens. Most normal nations keep their passports and passport numbers very secure. So that passport list would be an enquiry a person can be expected to make in their own nation given they have a passport in 2017.

Yes, I'm sure my country's bureaucrats can provide such a list for only $39.95 per person.

Re:Down the list

[djinn6]

And yet, even with all of those questions, all a terrorist has to do to sneak in is to keep all their terrorist social media activity on a different account. Or delete everything that could be incriminating. Or just lie and say they don't have one.

Meanwhile, of the legitimate travelers, not everyone has old passports, not everyone has social media accounts, not everyone has an address (yes, not all places people live have streets or street numbers), or one that you can cross reference (many governments don't keep tabs on who lives where), not everyone has a work history (such as teenagers), and not everyone can remember literally everything they've done for the past 2 decades. Unless the CIA somehow became omniscient overnight, you wouldn't be able to validate 90% of what people are telling you anyways.

Your choices are to either grant so many exceptions that you might as well not have the questions in the first place, or deny everyone who doesn't fit your idea of the "perfect traveler", which is basically everyone.

Re:Down the list

[n329619]

Real people with any education, a normal work history and a normal life should have no issues with any of the questions.

I can't recall a lot of stuff from the list. Maybe I'm one of those Fake people.

Re:Down the list

[Ihlosi]

That shows a person has a job,

An "employment history" is not required to show that a person currently has a job.

can support themselves while they are in the USA,

Usually, a statement from a bank is sufficient for that.

what study they did.

Oh, and how is that important? That's asking ... just out of curiosity. Lie to the USA and no visa application.

The trouble starts when the (true) information given by the applicant does not match the (erroneous) alternative channel verification done by the US.

Real people with any education, a normal work history and a normal life should have no issues with any of the questions.

On the contrary. People with a half a brain should have issues with a questionnaire that makes visiting Eastern bloc countries back in the 70s and 80s appear totally unintrusive.

Also: How is this information verified? And if the USA has means for independent verification, why do they need to ask for information they already have?

Re:Down the list

[AHuxley]

Re 'social media activity on a different account. Or delete everything that could be incriminating. Or just lie and say they don't have one. "
The US has the ability to note any and all changes to social media over time. Upload an interesting image a few years ago, removing it in 2017 will just attract attention.
To "delete" anything would just remove that image from the public in 2017 on the internet.
If the image has been up for years, the US gov/mil has that funding event or supporting image and facial recognition of everyone at the event.

Re 'Or just lie and say they don't have one." That is the risk a lot will try and then lie to the USA about. One lie and their not getting into the USA.
Is the person feeling lucky that the USA has not found that other account? The one with the flags, funding, support, political messages?
Re "not everyone has an address ". Person does not need social media apply to get into the USA.
If they have the wealth to get to the USA, study or work in the USA or visit the USA they can afford a new ISP account with email to work on their documents the US embassy needs.
Re "not everyone has old passports". People do not need old passports to enter the USA, they need a real passport. Some people use fake documents, some people use other peoples real papers, some people try their dual citizenship, some people lie and say that their new passport is the only one they have ever been issued. If a person has their first passport thats fine. Just don't hide past travel history.

Re "wouldn't be able to validate 90% of what people are telling you anyways" One lie, one omission, some funding, some support for a banned group, one image, one account is all that is needed to show a person is trying to cover their past and present a totally fake story to sneak into the USA.
Normal people with their first real passport will be fine, their first email account will be fine. Trying to hide a complex online past from the USA will be detected.

Re:Down the list

[AHuxley]

Its in the http://www.reuters.com/article... as linked.

"..request all prior passport numbers, five years' worth of social media handles, email addresses and phone numbers and 15 years of biographical information including addresses, employment and travel history.."

Re:Down the list

[Anonymous Coward]

"five years' worth of social media handles"

Does that include AC on slashdot?
Or the random UID's generated on 4chan's boards?

Re:Down the list

[Anonymous Coward]

...Lie to the USA and no visa application. Why should a person of interest be able to lie, omit, hide support for groups of interest or friends who support groups of interest to the USA?

Real people with any education, a normal work history and a normal life should have no issues with any of the questions.

You know, to make things easier and identify all the bad people, perhaps they should just gather all of this "innocent" information and start only allowing Christians in our country who are dumb enough to support the political status-quo and be an obedient servant and visitor.

Someone is of another faith? No visa for you. That would be considered a risk of religious terrorism.

Someone doesn't claim any allegiance to a US-approved party? No visa for you. That would be considered a risk of political terrorism.

Someone can think for themselves and an IQ above 120? No visa for you. That would be considered a risk of social terrorism.

If you can't see how this becomes a very slippery slope, I don't even know what to say. This is not and never will be an effective deterrent. This is yet another cut (out of 1,000) to enforce control over the masses and reinforce our Incarcerated States of America moniker. Nothing more.

Oh, and one more thing. Please post all of your passport numbers, work and travel history, address books, social media aliases, and religious affiliations online for all to see. After all, you're a "real" educated person, so fuck your privacy. No one needs that shit anymore.

Re:Down the list

[CanadianMacFan]

It's the person that can provide every detail without a problem that's your terrorist!

Re:Down the list

[turp182]

7 years of such information gets you security clearance at companies that have military equipment divisions.

I went through that recently (there were also 20 or so forms, income proof for 7 years, etc.).

So basically anyone who can enter the US under this regime will almost be able to get Federal security clearance...

Re:Down the list

[Anonymous Coward]

> "five years' worth of social media handles"

I don't use Facebook or any of those other common "social media" platforms, but I guess they can have my "Anonymous Coward" login at /. That should be interesting.

Re:Down the list

[AHuxley]

Re "Also: How is this information verified? And if the USA has means for independent verification.."
A person with a normal working life or educational history would have no issues.
People with a more complex social media past can attempt:
Lie and hope the US has no record of their past online support of banned groups.
Submit a totally different clean past and hope the USA never finds their real past.
Buy or use a totally clean set of papers and accounts. Too many images of people at protests, under flags, chanting in support of banned groups now exist.
The US has a record of all past social media use as in interesting images, account names. So tracking back for a few years is not difficult.
Removing information in 2017 does not clean up images posted years ago. The US has kept a copy of every interesting face and the facial recognition software is fast.
The "why do they need to ask for information they already have?" part justs allow a person to lie, tell any lie and then the interview stops and they stay in their own nation or are returned to their own nation.
The "independent verification" is not needed. A person online supports a banned group, likes, shares, supports, gives funds to, attended events... that uploaded photo a few years ago is the verification.
Hope their face and complex travel history was not kept by any nation friendly to the USA. Most nations will look after the privacy of their own citizens. A random person moving around a lot will get noticed and details shared. Verification is an public, private, gov, mil, another nations database away.
Normal people with bank accounts, a job, educational history, their own nations documents ready will not need to worry.

Re:Down the list

[Anonymous Coward]

Anything on social media can be forged. Pretty much anything can be forged, but relying on things that think 6-letter passwords are complex is foolish.

Re:Down the list

[AHuxley]

Re "This is not and never will be an effective deterrent".
It does not need to be a deterrent, just enough to induce an interesting person to tell one lie. Then their paperwork can be stopped before they ever enter the USA.

Re:Down the list

[AHuxley]

That would really depend on the level of US security clearance.
Are two people walking a life interviewing extended family, friends, employers and all teachers?
The US gov used to go back generations and down to the city and town level in person. No teacher or city or state paper file escaped been found.

The number of years would fit the average use of image uploads on social media. A person might have uploaded an interesting image at an event under a flag, or have been seen at an event and that image was collected by the USA or sent to the US clandestine services.
If a person fails to tell the truth when asked their past accounts will be telling. An average person will not belong to or support a banned group so they will have no issues.

Re:Down the list

[AHuxley]

Re "Anything on social media can be forged"
Given US interest in banned groups the US would have the upload of an image in real time, a few more images over the history of the social media use, any comments, likes, support, all other hops or linked accounts.
The image would exist as uploaded, the account use and face would match.
An interesting person can try to lie or take an image down in 2017 after years of account usage. Its a bit late to clean up in 2017 as such sudden clean up efforts would also be interestring.
Banned groups would kind of notice image changes and wonder why a person has been added to some event on social media. Other accounts would have the same original images under a flag, at a protest or meeting..

Trying a forged clean account does not alter all the other images floating around that the US has collected over the years in real time.

Re:Down the list

[Anonymous Coward]

The objections listed here and in other posts weaken my objections to this executive order.

If you destroyed a passport decades ago then you could say so. I suppose you might be able to recall where it was issued. That combined with your identity should be enough to get the passport information. If you can't recall the country of issue then do less drugs.

Address usually means your residence, not every hotel or flophouse you have ever visited. Most people can recall their address for the past 15 years. Exact apartment numbers may be confusing but one could travel to the apartment and hopefully recall which door they regularly entered. If not, consume less alcohol.

The social media you may have a point. It depends upon what the US gov expects. I doubt it wants every little comment added to some remarks section of random pages. I suspect they just want the usual. Facebook, twitter, etc. That said, I have signed up for forums where a particular question was asked by me and answered by the forum members. I then never visited that forum again and can't recall my name or password. I suppose you could just say that on the questionnaire. If not satisfactory, your email address is usually used for registration so the forum might help you. Some forums are not very responsive to people emailing requests so that may be a problem.

Re:Down the list

[djinn6]

Re 'social media activity on a different account. Or delete everything that could be incriminating. Or just lie and say they don't have one. " The US has the ability to note any and all changes to social media over time. Upload an interesting image a few years ago, removing it in 2017 will just attract attention. To "delete" anything would just remove that image from the public in 2017 on the internet. If the image has been up for years, the US gov/mil has that funding event or supporting image and facial recognition of everyone at the event.

What about keeping all their terrorist social media activity on a different account, one without their real name?

The US has the ability to note any and all changes to social media over time.

That's just not true. Facebook alone has way more data centers than the CIA, and they only keep the current data. If you add Google, Twitter and dozens of other social platforms, you're probably 100's of data centers away from being able to store all historical social media information.

Re "wouldn't be able to validate 90% of what people are telling you anyways" One lie, one omission, some funding, some support for a banned group, one image, one account is all that is needed to show a person is trying to cover their past and present a totally fake story to sneak into the USA.

How do you distinguish an innocent mistake from an intentional lie? Someone with 15 social media accounts can easily miss one by accident, which you'd interpret as a lie or omission.

Re:Down the list

[Anonymous Coward]

What problem is this trying to solve?

Re:Down the list

[EvilAlphonso]

Re 'All prior passport numbers?" Most normal nations will be able to give that to their own citizens. Most normal nations keep their passports and passport numbers very secure. So that passport list would be an enquiry a person can be expected to make in their own nation given they have a passport in 2017. If a person can now get a passport they can get any past passport details too.

I'm a European citizen. I was born in one country, I work in a second country and I live in a third country (I have lived in six countries, both inside and outside of Europe, in the last two decades). As I am no longer a resident of my country of birth, I would need to visit their consulate for the previous passport numbers (>4h drive) as they won't communicate them by phone or email. I'm about to change nationality to become a citizen of my current country of residence as this will greatly simplify my daily life. Once that happens, my country of birth won't even give me the time of the day let alone previous passport numbers. My country of birth is as unhelpful as they can be, as I haven't lived there for 16 years and it's becoming clear to them that I have no intention of ever living there again.

My wife is a Japanese citizen with a permanent residency permit in Europe, where she has now lived for 13 years (in 3 countries so far). However, her passport was never stamped by customs upon entry through some rather silly oversight... the destination airport only had EU-origin flights at the time, and both Paris CDG and Vienna airports failed to inspect her passport as she was only transiting through the airport. That oversight happened on two separate trips, so I would tend to think there's a lot of people in the same situation.

Re:Down the list

[AHuxley]

Re 'What about keeping all their terrorist social media activity on a different account, one without their real name?"
Facial recognition helps with that. Social media, IP and ISP details do too in many nations that support the USA.
Re "100's of data centers away from being able to store all historical social media information."
Collect it all is not keep it all. The USA does have the ability to collect all globally. Then it sorts and indexes in real time. Interesting people, sites and their friends, friends of friends, politics, funding, support details get stored for a very long term.
The USA is not just keeping the "internet" for decades. The USA is collecting all information in real time and then selecting what to keep long term.
Data size kept going back years is never an issue.
"How do you distinguish an innocent mistake from an intentional lie?
A normal person would have a normal life story thats supported by their government or the governments they have lived under. The years would match, the recall over decades would fit. No support of banned groups, no funding of banned groups, no movement to war zones, no social media images supporting banned groups. Most normal people would get their US related visit, education, work or trip as expected.
The US wants the ability to ask for "social media" to induce a lie so an interesting person cannot enter the USA. A normal person with no issues will not need to worry about the "miss one by accident". The US would have done their search for on an interesting person and will know what to keep asking for or for more details.

Travel to the US will drop even further

[boundary]

Recent news from sites like foursquare suggested travel to the US has already dropped (https://techcrunch.com/2017/05/24/foursquare-data-shows-international-tourism-to-the-u-s-is-down/). I can only imagine this latest stunt will drive visitor numbers even further down. Tsk.

can't they just ask one question instead?

[kiviQr]

simple question should be sufficient: are you a terrorist?

Re:can't they just ask one question instead?

[Anonymous Coward]

This plan is almost flawless, except on backwards day. On backwards day a normal citizen would answer "yes" to the question of are they a terrorist. A terrorist would also answer "yes" as we all know they do not observe backwards day. It would result in millions of terrorist flooding the country undetected one day of every year.

Re:can't they just ask one question instead?

[Anonymous Coward]

Too late. They already ask it:

"Are you a member or representative of a terrorist organization?"

Form DS-160

Re:can't they just ask one question instead?

[Anonymous Coward]

"This plan is almost flawless, except on backwards day."

Under USA New Management, isn't every day going to be backwards day?

The truth

[Anonymous Coward]

... prior passport numbers, five years' worth of social media handles, email addresses and phone numbers and 15 years of biographical information including addresses, employment and travel history.

How will they know if you're telling the truth? Are governments going to hand over their passport and tax return databases to the USA? Will governments include all known email addresses and phone numbers in that report?

At best this sounds like a mini-Truth endeavour, where the USA can put a name on all parties conducting correspondence within its borders. At worst, every country or visitor agrees to hand over every personal record they have: I think that would violate 'think of the children' and data-privacy (what little that exists) laws in most countries.

It seems the scientists, experts and dignitaries of the world have 2 choices: Agree to, and support total surveillance by the USA, or arrange their work and their lives so travel to the USA is unneeded and avoidable.

Will the USA be allowed to host an Olympiad under these immigration rules?

Re:The truth

[Z00L00K]

Olympiad is actually the time between the Olympic Games so that would be the least of the US problems right now.

Re:The truth

[AHuxley]

The past passport numbers would fill in most of a normal persons past world travel.
Having an interesting person on file in another nation when they should have been in their own nation or moving around some other nation would show:
Dual citizen with a passport they did not mention. Thats a lie.
Another travel document they did not mention.
Sharing or the use of fake documents.
People made mistakes in the 1960-90's thinking no database would ever reconnect be created and show their past support or movements to interesting nations.
That the only passport they had to consider is the one they use now.
Most normal nations have taken a lot of time and effort on every document they allowed in and out of their nation over the decades.
Every passport number, every face, all the details stayed on file. Now the databases are linked for all other nations, past decades and not just people who are wanted or passports that have been revoked.
All details are now shared, not just who is wanted or who has no passport.
No spelling errors, no issues with fonts, languages, translation. Every name can be fully considered rather than just trying to match a few names of interest.

Re:The truth

[Anonymous Coward]

Pass passport numbers? Who the fuck keeps that data? Will I have to bug my burocrates to provide me with history of my passport numbers, so I can go to fasist state? No ty. :)

Re:The truth

[Falconhell]

Wow, you really drank the authoritarian kool-aid didnt you?
Meanwhile, people can just walk in at the North and South of your country.

The delay, arrogance and ignorance of US border officials is well known, and the economic consequences will continue to get worse, tourism is collapsing currently.

All of this, because you are scared of the remote possibility of a terrorist attack, you are literally in more danger of dying falling out of bed than by terrorism, you are even in far more danger from your own armed fellow citizens.

A brave nation does not give the terrorists exactly what they want.
Its sad to see a nation once respected world wide for its courage and intellect descend into a cowardly uneducated rabble.

The US, the only empire to go from rise to fall without an intervening period of civillisation.

Re:The truth

[AHuxley]

Re "really drank the authoritarian kool-aid didn't you?"
Why would any nation allow in people belonging to, supporting or funding banned groups?
Re ' tourism is collapsing currently."
People can select from many nations or even stay in their own nation for a holiday.
With the correct travel documents any US embassy will be happy to help anyone wanting to visit the USA.
People can also select to be educated in the USA or may have other reasons to travel to the USA short or long term.
All that is needed is the correct documents and not belonging to or supporting a banned group.

Re:The truth

[Anonymous Coward]

So which "correct travel document" proves you are not part of a "banned group"? Which of them proves you are? You don't even know what you are talking about, so stop spamming.

Re:The truth

[jandersen]

How will they know if you're telling the truth?

I know how to make an all-inclusive list of all you passport numbers: generate a complete list of all combinations of characters, that form valid passport numbers in the relevant countries. They didn't say the list had to be limited to only yours, did they?

Re:The truth

[AHuxley]

Most interesting people have made a lot of mistakes AC.
They pose for images at political events and upload images. They pose for images in nations at war.
Their bank accounts show payments to "charity" groups that are the political side of a banned group.
They like or share or fund or support a banned group online.
Such information was usually collected in real time and can now be used to match a face to a passport been used.
Normal people with "correct travel document" have a bank account thats normal, a face thats not on image supporting banned groups, do not have sets of images online from war zones of interest to the USA.

Re:The truth

[Anonymous Coward]

The US, the only empire to go from rise to fall without an intervening period of civillisation.

No, that would be Brazil. Don't take that way from us.

Re:The truth

[shutdown -p now]

Most normal nations have taken a lot of time and effort on every document they allowed in and out of their nation over the decades

Most nations don't meaningfully track departures.

One example of such is US.

Naw, they're economies are going to crap too

[rsilvergun]

so they'll come here because they have to to keep their jobs. And so the Global Race to the Bottom (tm) continues. Second Dark Ages here we come.

Re: Naw, they're economies are going to crap too

[Anonymous Coward]

Er, why? You do realise that the US economy isn't the fastest growing in the world (and we all know whose is) and in the face of all of this garbage nations around the world are forging new economic alliances that do not involve the USA? Canada and Europe, TPP is going ahead without you, China is stepping into the gaps on investment big time, India is slowly getting its house in order, the big surprise in Africa reveals when other African Nations got a would-be dictator to leave office peacefully, the world is changing a lot faster than stay-at-home, don't-know-about-the-world Americans seem to appreciate. You're being left in the dust. You are yesterday's country and as withdraw from the Paris according shows, not a nation of the future.

Re:Naw, they're economies are going to crap too

[K. S. Kyosuke]

so they'll come here because they have to to keep their jobs

No, they don't have to, really. They can work for anyone they want. It's the managers of the company who have to take care of its remote branch operating unless they want to shut it down and lose the market and the institutional knowledge and whatnot.

Re:Naw, they're economies are going to crap too

[Gussington]

so they'll come here because they have to to keep their jobs. And so the Global Race to the Bottom (tm) continues. Second Dark Ages here we come.

Assuming when you say "here" you mean the US then no. What will happen is the same that happened to 20th century Europe when the US was the land of the free, all the smart people moved out of Europe and the global centre of power shifted towards America.
If Trump continues down this path then the smart people will simply choose the next best place to live and work and America will lose it's place at the top.
This isn't a global race to the bottom, it's an American race to the bottom. A lesson in how to squander immeasurable wealth by electing a moron to gut your economy from the inside out.
The Chinese must be salivating at the opportunity that has fallen into their laps.

This particular crap will have little effect on EU

[Sycraft-fu]

Most EU nations are visa waiver with the US, meaning you don't need a visa to come over for tourism or business if you are a citizen in those countries (and vice versa for US citizens). Basically all of the EU has visa waiver status with the US, as well as a few other places (there are 38 countries total). So given that this is all about changes to the visa program, it doesn't affect you if you are from a VWP country (or Canada, which is completely visa exempt to the US, and Palu, Marshall Islands and Micronesia which have a compact of free association so their citizens can just move to the US any time they like).

Now if you were coming over for a long period of time, more than 90 days, or were coming over as a student you'd need a visa and then this shit would apply. But just normal business travel from the EU won't change.

Tuck Frump

[Artem S. Tashkinov]

So when's the impeachment of the POTUS coming? I don't think anyone in their right mind in the US appreciates the fact that Trump has been actively sabotaging the US economy ever since his inauguration.

Re:Tuck Frump

[Anonymous Coward]

Some people love him so much that he could shit on their salad and they'd call it croutons. And he is doing just that.

Re:Tuck Frump

[Anonymous Coward]

Impeachment requires a majority vote in the House of Representatives. Republicans control the house, and they like what he's doing, so the only way(*) he's going to get impeached is if the Democrats somehow take back the House in the Nov 2018 midterm election. If that happens, he would be impeached in Jan 2019.

* If the Russia investigation turns up anything solid, then the Republicans will boot Trump to keep the party from capsizing. However if that happens, we'll have Pence doing his own brand of unspeakably awful things until Jan 2021.

Re:Tuck Frump

[Anonymous Coward]

Haha :-)

Although the technical term for that is crottin. Nothing like the French when it comes to food, they sure know their stuff!

This reminds me of the last French elections: the French Le Pen right was supported by the American alt right (cf. Macron Leaks), under the banner of Pepe the frog. After Le Pen harvested a resounding defeat, some one tweeted along the lines of "En France, les grenouilles, on les mange". Classy.

Re:Tuck Frump

[jader3rd]

I don't think anyone in their right mind in the US appreciates the fact that Trump has been actively sabotaging the US economy ever since his inauguration.

The few people that I know, who did vote Trump, did so because they felt that he would shake up Washington. I haven't asked them recently about how they feel about their decision, but given all of the shaking that Trump is doing, I suspect their answer will be "Exceeding expectations."

Re:Tuck Frump

[painandgreed]

So when's the impeachment of the POTUS coming? I don't think anyone in their right mind in the US appreciates the fact that Trump has been actively sabotaging the US economy ever since his inauguration.

First, there has to be evidence that he actually has committed a "high crime or misdemeanor" and then the process can begin. There is suspicion that something might have gone on, and if he is trying to obstruct justice in the current investigation, that would probably count. Still, they're collecting evidence and that will take months. Next, it has to be something sufficiently bad that his own party will want him out or at least be willing to begin impeachment. Then it will take some time for the impeachment proceedings. So, even if his Russian ties turn out true and he has been obstructing justice, and his own party (and presumably the public) have turned against him, you're still looking at months or years. Still, for most of what he's done, like withdrawing from the Paris Accord, are not impeachable reasons. It's his job and unless he performs his job so badly that his own cabinet decides to declare him unfit for service, he'll be there to make bad decisions his entire term.

Sampler

[Tablizer]

51) Have you ever touched a veiled Muslim?

52) If yes, did you enjoy it?

53) Do you eat your snot?

54) Do you pose as a creepy clown on weekends?

55) Did you vote for any creepy clowns?

Re:Sampler

[Anonymous Coward]

55) Did you vote for any creepy clowns?

A: Most people did, Trump.

Re:Sampler

[Anonymous Coward]

55) Did you vote for any creepy clowns?

I though these questions were for foreigners, not US voters...

USSR

[Rxke]

In USSR privacy protects you?

People remember that far back?

[Anonymous Coward]

While I remember where I've lived in the past I would have to do some real searching to figure out exact dates, or even years, for some of those moves. And social media accounts 5 years ago? Yeah, cause I've been keeping close tabs on that google whatever-they-called-their-failed-attempt-at-social account or my one at god-that-was-rubbish-what-was-I-thinking.com. And of course I'm going to remember details of the burner email I set up to access http://spammy-spam-spam.spam, or the other one I had for 10 minutes with a crappy service provider years ago.

It's like when you have to work out employment history for a job application: how the hell do people remember all that stuff?

Worst case, citizens step in the freed slots.

[sethstorm]

If they don't like it, it'll free slots and jobs for US citizens.

Easily detected.

[sethstorm]

This is just more that will isolate the US from the leftists in the pseudoscience community.
Everyone else will just lie as much as necessary, and give either partial lists or entirely fake curated profile.

That's the easiest path out of the country, but not the quickest. Advanced technology, along with sources and methods developed by willing and able individuals, will pick apart lies. At some point, you will have to tell the truth and not the unbelievably clean version.

Your admission into the US as a non-citizen is not a right, but a privilege.

Goodbuy ...

[nospam007]

...tourist industry. At least the hotel chains won't no longer have to worry about Booking.com and Tripadvisor.com.

Re:Goodbuy ...

[Anonymous Coward]

The tourism industry can do without a bunch of kids throwing a tantrum. People who actually pay for vacations don't care, i.e. adults.

I'll pass

[Anonymous Coward]

Uh, thanks. At least I know where I won't have my next vacations.

Re:This particular crap will have little effect on

[marka63]

They still ask you for your social media accounts with a visa waiver. It was still optional a couple of months ago when I last needs to apply for a visa wavier.

I wanted to visit America once

[Anonymous Coward]

...but my usual rights, freedoms and respectful treatment must be temporarily trampled on.

There's also that bit of being treated like visiting the US is some sort of special privilege that I must go through this demeaning shit.

Dear US, your empire is falling apart in front of your eyes. When you calm down don't bother to let us know. We've moved on.

and my trip is cancelled.

[Bender Unit 22]

As someone who have been traveling to the states 3 times a year on vacation, I think it is time to say goodbye for now.
I was already somewhat reluctant about our upcoming trip this fall because of the laptop/electronics ban as carry-on, which got cancelled but now there's talks about it again. I am not putting expensive laptops and camera gear in checked.

The house has already been rented, but it will be cancelled tonight.

It's a shame, I liked to book the premium seats at Norwegian which enabled me to sleep or at least relax all the 10 hours on the flight, then one night after landing in Las Vegas and then driving to Arizona to go mountain biking, although the roads these days seems to have been deteriorating too much to be driving a Corvette, Mustang or Camaro. I liked renting american cars so that was a part of the "package".
It was good fun, but I guess I will just spend my money within Europe.

Re:and my trip is cancelled.

[CanadianMacFan]

There's so many other parts of the world other than Europe and the US. Try somewhere else. I'd recommend Canada but unfortunately since many flights to here cross US airspace we tend to follow the same bans as them.

Re:and my trip is cancelled.

[Gussington]

There's so many other parts of the world other than Europe and the US. Try somewhere else. I'd recommend Canada...

Isn't Canada just USA-lite? I'm not saying that to be facetious, if you're talking about travel, then go somewhere different. Try Thailand or Nepal or Fiji. Go somewhere completely different and discover how many wonderful cultures there are out there that aren't of European origin

Every phone number ...

[taniwha]

When I visit other countries, including the US, I often buy a SIM card, get a temporary phone number, now some orange dingbat in the US tells me I was supposed to have remembered all those phone numbers I've had over the past 5 years.

Oh, and I design VOIP hardware and software .... do you want ALL those numbers too? I can't remember them, is it a big form? lots of room

Don't you guys have an NSA or something to keep track of all this stuff for us

Re:Every phone number ...

[CanadianMacFan]

They also want every email address. I have my own domain and use a unique address for every place I sign up to so I can tell who is selling my info/is hacked. Am I really supposed to remember every email address I created in the past five years when *@domain.com is valid (for whatever my real domain happens to be). Hope that they have lots of room on the form!

all hail the sacred economy

[Cryofan]

all must bow b4 the holy economy

Re:all hail the sacred economy

[Maritz]

lol. That's your response? Brilliant.

Re:all hail the sacred economy

[Anonymous Coward]

lol. That's your response? Brilliant.

And that bullshit is yours?

Understand that tourism is often cyclical, and can easily rise and fall. When a business moves to an area, it can bring a hell of a lot more benefits than just dumping money into hotels and fast food joints, and in a consistent predictable way. Business also often brings tourists who become permanent residents.

Re:all hail the sacred economy

[Ihlosi]

Understand that tourism is often cyclical, and can easily rise and fall.

Yes, it falls especially fast when tourists feel like they're being treated like crap.P Self-fulfilling prophecy much?

Re: all hail the sacred economy

[gweilo8888]

What does that have to do with my point?

Just don't go to US on vacation

[Anonymous Coward]

go to South American instead, or why not Europe or Asia - you will not be treated as a terrorist and a threat.

Thank you

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks a lot for pushing capable Chinese back home. Thanks.

Thank You Mr. President

[Anonymous Coward]

I'am proudly american and I think we are a sovereign nation. We can do whatever we want to protect us. So Thank you Mr. President, we need to protect America and make it great again. (My post will be censored by Slashdot editors)

Careful what you wish for...

[Anonymous Coward]

While I heartily agree with your sentiment[1], what do we get when Trump gets kicked out? Mike Pence. Kinda like trump, but smart. A Ninja Mutant Trump, if you will. Dunno if we want *that*.

[1] In my phantasies, Trump applied for president because his "Empire" was about to explode as one giant Ponzi scheme fueled by poisoned Russian money: his advisors forced him to take the only way out, becoming POTUS. Some day, all the mess surfaces and he'll be the first president in jail (psycologically this would be interesting, because he was the first presidential candidate vowing to put another candidate in jail).

But knowing Pence, I try to dream something else, alas.

Re:Careful what you wish for...

[jader3rd]

what do we get when Trump gets kicked out? Mike Pence.

Not necessarily. If Trump gets impeached for collusion with an enemy state, there would be grounds for throwing out the entire administration and holding another election.

The Irony of Privacy and Narcissism.

[geekmux]

No, I don't agree with the concept of asking for this information when crossing borders (mainly because I don't see it as an effective deterrent), but it appears that everyone is really pissed off and offended about people asking for their social media associations, as if you're really making an effort to hide yourself online.

Pro tip; It's not really difficult to figure out it's you based on the 927 selfies you posted last month as "InstaWhore69".

The irony of a generation of social media narcissists wanting to label their online associations as private and sensitive information while they do their best to get the most clicks, likes, looks, and e-friends on the planet fucking kills me.

60 minutes to collect that? Ridiculous!

[nicolaiplum]

The form estimates it will take 60 minutes to fill in. Only a very parochial American, like Trump, could find out all their travel, passport, and social media details within 60 minutes.

Anyone who travels for work, or lives in a smaller country near other countries, or likes personal travel, will take 60 minutes to find their travel history for the past year, or less. It would take days of work to collect 15 years of details.

I estimate that most of my work colleagues would find it impossible to collect travel details for 15 years, or social media handles for 15 years. They might not even remember where they lived 15 years ago.

This is an impossible task to complete precisely for most people. It is also impossible for the US government to verify that the person has submitted all the information asked for. Therefore it is both unreasonable for the applicant and wasteful for the US government.

holy crap

[l3v1]

"Have you travelled to any country (otherthan your country of residence) in the last 15 years? Ifyes, provide details for each trip, including locations visited, date visited, source of funds, and length of stay."

Now, I do realize there are lots of people on this planet that do not travel much, some never even leave their country. My question is, realistically speaking, who in the US govt. thinks many of such people will apply for a US visa? Since even when talking about regular people, 15 years is a long time during which very very many travels can be done. And then there are some people, who the US probably wants - or should want - like scientists, researchers, engineers, etc. some or most of which might travel dozens (or even more) times PER YEAR. Now, just for a moment think about gathering information for 100+ travels for a visa application... Geez, I mean: GEEZ! :)

"Have you ever held a passport other than the passport listed in your visa application? If yes, provide the following information"

Well, I don't know how many passports people usually have during their life. Up to now, I have had a total of 3, from 2 separate countries (they do expire you know). Personally, I don't know the details of one from those three (I don't have it anymore, not even a copy) and it would be practically impossible to find out that data. Thankfully I don't need a US visa - well, not yet... this administration can seemingly have some fun with regulations :)

Another favorite :) 15 years worth of employment history? :) Really :) Nice. I'd like to see a 30-40 years old senior tech worker fill out such an application :)

Re:holy crap

[Anonymous Coward]

And which country of residence are they referring to? Over the last 15 years, I've lived in 4. Do I have to list everywhere I holidayed within those countries when I lived there, or only at times I wasn't officially resident in them?

The rules are ridiculous. You could just about comply with them if you took an annual trip for the 15 years, but those of us with more complicated travel history? Not going to happen!

15 years of employment history isn't a problem though. As a "30-40 years old senior tech worker" my last 15 years encompasses 5 jobs. Not everyone job hops as much as they country hop!

Re:holy crap

[Ihlosi]

And which country of residence are they referring to?

All of them, of course.

Over the last 15 years, I've lived in 4.

Well, submit them on additional sheets of paper.

Do I have to list everywhere I holidayed within those countries when I lived there, or only at times I wasn't officially resident in them?

Oh, there's a special list of countries where even a short visit, without any residency, will reduce your visa-bility score.

The rules are ridiculous.

Uh oh.

You could just about comply with them if you took an annual trip for the 15 years, but those of us with more complicated travel history? Not going to happen!

Well, compliance is mandatory, so the only thing that's not going to happen is the issuance of your visa.

15 years of employment history isn't a problem though. As a "30-40 years old senior tech worker" my last 15 years encompasses 5 jobs.

Well, let's see if there are any interesting companies on that list. No, we don't call it industrial espionage.

Re:holy crap

[Kvan]

There's no way I could accurately gather 15 years of travel data. I don't have access to calendars or emails from past jobs, so all work related travel will be guesswork. At the absolute best I could probably get 80% of my travel right, and anything older than six years or so would probably only be accurate to within +/- a year.

Re:holy crap

[Anonymous Coward]

Belgian here. That's impossible to answer. It's a one hour drive to get out of the country in any direction from Brussels. The Netherlands, France, Germany, ...
About 10 years ago I often went on day-trips to London to watch a Chelsea football game. Drive up there in the morning, walk around a bit and enjoy the city for some hours, go to Stamford Bridge, watch the game and come back (length of stay 20 hrs, 21 hrs if traffic jam?). As if I can remember all those one-day trips abroad. Next the trips to France and The Netherlands. Yearly skying trips to France, Italy, Switserland or Austria. Oh, I just remembered I had a friend in France just over the border I visited a couple of times, maybe 12 years ago? that was also by car, so it's not like I have plane tickets to know exactly how long that was. Next that I remember, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Germany, Italy, Turkey and probably a couple more I forgot. So, no, I can't fill in that form in 1 hour. Of course I'm in the Visa Waiver Program. But if I ever need a longer Visa or work-Visa, I would not be able to fill that form correctly. Probably fair enough, but not perfectly.

Re:holy crap

[EvilAlphonso]

I do hope they have unlimited storage for the "have you travelled to any country (other than your country of residence)" question... for the last 12 months I've been driving through 2 countries other than my country of residence every morning to work and every evening from work. For the 14 years prior to that, one country a day for work and multiple countries per weekend for shopping trips, parties, conferences, trips to the seaside, hobbies, concerts, long weekend road trips across Europe, sailing... and none of those have any paper trail, as they happened within the Schengen Area.

Not an issue at all

[Anonymous Coward]

The only thing that changes is probably a couple of extra fields you need to fill in on the form. You fill that form online, and each year they add stuff (like questions).
This is probably going to be 30 more seconds you have to spend filling the form, putting a couple of your social media profile login names (if you have them), and a computer will add that to a DB. Visa vetting is done automatically by looking at that data, it does not take a person to review that.
On the visa interview you get vetted not based on this info, but on the way you look, the way you speak and your sources of income. Nothing else. I've been to several visa interviews and that is the only thing that matters.

Good enough.

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh my God, how can a nation as USA have such a moron as a president? That was the final reason I needed to decided not to come back to this mediocre country called USA. Despite still having a 10-year valid entry Visa, I do not give a duck anymore for coming there. It seems Americans deserve their president, based on the election system they devised.

So long, US!

Re:Good enough.

[Ihlosi]

Oh my God, how can a nation as USA have such a moron as a president?

It's called "democratic election".

and how are you going to check....

[Anonymous Coward]

and how are you going to check the 9600 email address i have used ot sign up for anyhitng

oh and i no longer use faceplant haven't in 4 years
bet they hold that against ya

whod want to vist the us of screwball is beyond me

Re:This particular crap will have little effect on

[Anonymous Coward]

If they make it mandatory, I don't fly to the US anymore, no matter how important the business trip And if my (US) employer fires me over that, then so be it. I will in no time have a very similar job for a non-US competitor.

Wikileaks 404

[Anonymous Coward]

The secret report you will not find on Wikileaks

http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/images/publications/The_Kremlins_Trojan_Horses_web_0228_third_edition.pdf

CERN

[Anonymous Coward]

A majority of the employees at CERN "travel to another country" every fucking day !
Switzerland's 3 largest cities: Geneva, Basel and Zurich, are FLOODED with residents of their neghbouring countries every single day of the year.
They all travel to another country every day, and on weekends, and other countries too.

There's not a SINGLE FUCKING ONE of them who can provide what the US gummint claim to be their due, even for the last month.
Let alone for fifteen motherfucking YEARS !!!

I know it's outdated, but that's pure ROFLMAO.

And that's just one country in Western Europe - can you imagine how many vacationers and business folk you are deliberately excluding from your "blessed shores"?

Epic fail...

Destroy your own economy with one idiotic regulation from Captn Cheesehead. What a legacy he's going to have ...

Avoid the US ...

[CaptainDork]

... centers for study are quickly going down the rabbit hole where loan sharks and Evangelical Christians rule.

Other countries can fill those gaps.

Bye bye, Miss American Pie.

Ultimately...

[Anonymous Coward]

... what does it matter, they are asking for information they don't have, so just give them your current info.

How can they know you had different info over prior years?

The whole exercise seems pointless, I wonder how many threats have been thwarted using this kind of data?

oh yeah

[Anonymous Coward]

can we just apply the same to kids boarding the schoolbus, just (maybe) to avoid school shootings

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States

and outsourcing wins

[Anonymous Coward]

you know all those dollars sent to the world won't go back to the US

Just realizing?

[MercTech]

Odd, all the measures mentioned have been in effect if you want to get a work visa for a U.S. Citizen to work in Canada for several years. Why is the media just now noticing that to get a visa for work or education travel you provide years worth of residence information and many more very intrusive hoops to jump through.

90 day tourist visas are easy. But, if you actually want to go to school or go to work; you have to prove you aren't a criminal or nut job.

The Real Victms Here

[Anonymous Coward]

This will also have a huge negative impact on cultural Marxism, White Genocide and Terrorism. That's the real tragedy of all this.

Soros' Plan: No borders, no Hate Speach no guns: This is your future, White people:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?...