Debian 9 (Stretch) Will Be Released Today (twitter.com)

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Debian 9 (Stretch) Will Be Released Today (twitter.com)

Posted by EditorDavid on Saturday June 17, 2017 @01:10PM from the Debian-debuts dept.

The Debian Project has been liveblogging today's release of Debian 9 (Stretch) using the Twitter hashtag #releasingstretch. Some of the announcements:

The oldstable suite (wheezy) has now been renamed to oldoldstable
Debian jessie now been renamed to oldstable!
The Debian stretch suites have now been renamed to stable!
The draft debian-devel-announce post is ready, archive docs are being cleaned up

This release is named after that purple octopus in Toy Story 3, and more tantalizing tidbits of information keep appearing on Debian's micronews site:

At least 1436 people and 18 teams contributed to Debian in 2017
Stretch has 25,357 source packages with 9,808,465 source files
There were 13 different themes proposed to be the official Debian stretch theme
Debian Stretch ships with the free mathematical software SageMath, you can install it with apt
During the stretch development, 101 contributors became Debian Developers, and 94 more become Debian Maintainers
Debian Stretch will ship with the first release of the Debian Astro Pure Blend [for astronomers]
Debian Popularity Contest gathers anonymous statistics about Debian packages usage from about 195,000 reports

196 comments

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They got some catching up to do by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 13:17 · Score: 1

I'm already on Slackware 14.2
1. Re: They got some catching up to do by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 14:02 · Score: 0
  
  That does seem like a stretch.
2. Re:They got some catching up to do by K.+S.+Kyosuke · 2017-06-17 21:24 · Score: 1
  
  The cool guys stay with 13.37.
  
  --
  Ezekiel 23:20
3. Re:They got some catching up to do by ls671 · 2017-06-18 01:13 · Score: 1
  
  It is very rare that I reveal security sensitive details on /. but for the good of the cause: So am I (are we).
  
  --
  Everything I write is lies, read between the lines.
Insane! by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 13:23 · Score: 0

Insane!!!!!
And one other thing... by msauve · 2017-06-17 13:25 · Score: -1, Flamebait

Debian Stretch continues to use systemd.

DO NOT WANT.

--
"National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
1. Re:And one other thing... by F.Ultra · 2017-06-17 13:30 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  So go use Devuan? Or is the anti systemd crowd now joining the SWJ, Vegan, Crossfitter crowds where they cannot stand silent for 5 minutes before announcing their special needs and wants to the world?
2. Re: And one other thing... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 13:32 · Score: 0, Troll
  
  No one cares whether you want Debian 9 or not. You are irrelevant and absolutely nobody cares about you. Perhaps instead of whining about Debian 9, if you don't like it, create your own distro that doesn't use systemd. It's open source, so absolutely nothing prevents you from doing that. However, it's far easier for you to whine on an internet forum rather than do something useful. That's exactly why you're irrelevant and why nobody should care what you think. You're just another online hater who likes to tear other people's work down.
3. Re:And one other thing... by epyT-R · 2017-06-17 13:35 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  Critiquing technology != SJW crybullying
4. Re:And one other thing... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 13:37 · Score: 0
  
  In general systemd is a great improvement, but little things like how the journal tool is not called journal, but instead journalctl and systemd's main program is not called systemd but instead systemctl make it confusing for the ops guys that work for me since they manage about six different UNIX systems. They don't use our Debian servers often enough to remember the obscurely named systemd commands. On the other hand, that's a positive point for Debian since they don't have to touch them very often. Debian just works.
  The bigger problem is that messages that used to show on the console with SysV init scripts are now no longer showed on the console, and they are not logged in the journal. That makes troubleshooting a pain in the neck. Simple problems, like a /var/lib/mongodb/mongod.lock hanging around after a power problem which prevents MongoDB from restarting, can take a while to trackdown since nothing logs that error. With Debian before systemd, the init script would show a clear error on the console. A couple of weeks ago after we had an unexpected power outage while swapping out UPS batteries, none of the sixty MongoDB servers we have would restart. My junior guys wasted about four hours before finally giving up and calling me. That was four hours of downtime that we would not have had pre-systemd.
5. Re:And one other thing... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 13:39 · Score: 0
  
  Debian "release engineering" in a nutshell:
  
  The Debian ProjectâVerified account @debian 18m18 minutes ago
  If any of the lines in your /etc/apt/sources.list refer to 'stable', you might get a surprise on your next upgrade! #releasingstretch
  6 replies 24 retweets 36 likes
  They're basically pulling a Microsoft. DO NOT WANT indeed.
6. Re: And one other thing... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 13:43 · Score: -1
  
  Looks like a crybaby millennial snowflake got triggered. Get over yourself and get a job rather than whining about someone else's work.
7. Re:And one other thing... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 13:43 · Score: 1
  
  Without logs, simple problems can easily turn into major problems. We use Puppet to manage servers and leave SELinux enabled. With Red Hat 6, that wasn't a huge problem since you could almost always see errors on the console or in syslog. With systemd, very often there's no error shown or logged, and you have to know to check /var/log/audit/audit.log. Just checked my main dev machine, and that log file is over 300 MB long, so good luck finding and understanding what you need.
  An even bigger problem is that since Puppet is very good at checking exit statuses, like traditional UNIX things, before systemd that was useful. With systemd, "systemctl start [service-name]" almost always returns a zero even though the service doesn't start. The junior guys that run Puppet don't know there's a problem until a customer or a monitoring script complains. That's a huge problem. When we ran Red Hat 6, I'm proud to say that we went over two years without any customer-facing downtime outside of maintenance hours. With Red Hat 7 and systemd, we've had four hours just this month!
8. Re: And one other thing... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 13:45 · Score: 0
  
  I don't understand why systemd always returns zero even when something fails.
9. Re:And one other thing... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 13:46 · Score: 0
  
  Complaining about people complaining. Self aware much?
10. Re: And one other thing... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 13:47 · Score: 0
  
  Just run things by hand. I know that can be hard to get all of the environment variables and command line options correct sometimes, but it's the only option that works since systemd drops log messages.
11. Re: And one other thing... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 13:49 · Score: 0
  
  Puppet isn't great and trying to use it on the unstable foundation of systemd must be hell. I would just give up on that.
12. Re:And one other thing... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 14:01 · Score: 0
  
  > systemd is a great improvement
  This. The unit files are so much simpler than init scripts! About a year ago, I replaced a 1,200 line shell script with a 17 line unit file, and it works better now. We make a highly-customizable ERP system so shell scripts are a huge problem for us, and since I've been the only one that's good at them for 18 years here, one major reason my life was harder than it should be was because of start-up scripts. systemd made my life easier in that regard.
  The problem is that the old shell scripts output errors to stderr so customers could easily communicate the problem to us. Almost always the problems they created were simple things like the wrong owner on a directory or forgetting to run restorecon after mv an old file to a new name and creating a new file so it didn't have the proper SELinux labels. With systemd, stderr is just swallowed and not logged so what used to take us a few minutes to solve with a customer now can take days. Yes, life is better with systemd, but it's not as good as it could be. I don't understand why logging is still broken.
13. Re: And one other thing... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 14:09 · Score: 0
  
  We're getting the infamous "FatalAssertion 34433" with MongoDB on about sixty servers after our SAN went down. The guys working for me didn't know there was a problem since "systemctl start mongod" returns a 0. "systemctl status mongod" returns:
  mongod.service - High-performance, schema-free document-oriented database Loaded: loaded (/usr/lib/systemd/system/mongod.service; enabled; vendor preset: disabled) Active: failed (Result: start-limit) since Sun 2017-06-18 02:07:39 UTC; 4s ago Process: 31810 ExecStart=/usr/bin/mongod --config /etc/mongod.conf (code=exited, status=100) Main PID: 31694 (code=exited, status=0/SUCCESS)
  It failed! Noticed the "Active: failed" line. Why can't systemd return a correct exit status?
14. Re: And one other thing... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 14:22 · Score: 0
  
  This. If "systemctl status" can output the correct state, why can't "systemctl start" also do that?
15. Re:And one other thing... by rdelsambuco · 2017-06-17 14:22 · Score: 2
  
  Complaining shaming is sad.
  
  --
  I comment occasionally so that I can mod others -1 overrated or -1 offtopic.
16. Re: And one other thing... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 14:23 · Score: 1
  
  Lennart is too young to grok UNIX. He just doesn't get why exit statuses are important.
17. Re: And one other thing... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 14:24 · Score: 0
  
  Great examples of the tremendous costs imposed on users by poorly-considered design decisions!
  There was a time when professional developers understood that every choice they made either made their system more costly for the user, or less costly. Now, developers are convinced that simply being different - adding costs - is good, and that making customers adjust processes to a new release every few weeks - adding costs - is somehow desirable.
18. Re: And one other thing... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 14:27 · Score: 0
  
  You say that like the other choices of Salt, Ansible, or Chef are much better. They aren't. Plus, they can't work well when systemd swallows log messages and doesn't output a proper exit status.
19. Re:And one other thing... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 14:38 · Score: 1
  
  My /etc/apt/sources.list points not to stable, but to jessie. I assume most other stable users have their config set the same to avoid exactly the issue you mentioned. 'apt-get update && apt-get dist-upgrade' will not upgrade me to Stretch until I reconfigure my /etc/apt/sources.list.
  So basically, you just need to have your config set up properly, and Debian will do what you say.
20. Re: And one other thing... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 14:39 · Score: 0
  
  That's very difficult with something like Tomcat. I wish systemd wouldn't swallow log messages.
21. Re: And one other thing... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 14:40 · Score: 0
  
  Swallowing log messages has made my life shit. I wish systemd would fix their problems.
22. Re:And one other thing... by myowntrueself · 2017-06-17 14:43 · Score: 1, Insightful
  
  Complaining shaming is sad.
  Complaining is hate speech.
  
  --
  In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
23. Re: And one other thing... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 14:43 · Score: 0
  
  I don't understand why systemd can't log stderr.
24. Re: And one other thing... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 14:54 · Score: 0
  
  You say that like the other choices of Salt, Ansible, or Chef are much better. They aren't. Plus, they can't work well when systemd swallows log messages and doesn't output a proper exit status.
  Well, there's always Kubernetes
25. Re: And one other thing... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 14:58 · Score: 0
  
  Or return the exit status.
26. Re: And one other thing... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 15:04 · Score: 0
  
  Because Poettering doesn't have enough experience to understand why it is important?
27. Re:And one other thing... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 15:15 · Score: -1
  
  > 1,200 line shell script with a 17 line unit file
  Same here. We were able to greatly reduce the number of lines in our custom start-up scripts. That was great, but as you said, the fact that it doesn't return a proper exit status is just crappy. We often no longer catch start-up problems until either our monitoring scripts or customers catch them. That is a major problem. systemd is still a net positive, but I just don't get why they haven't fixed the exit statuses.
28. Re: And one other thing... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 15:15 · Score: 0
  
  Why can't it pass the exit status up to the shell?
29. Re:And one other thing... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 15:24 · Score: 0
  
  $ man journalctl
  That was easy. Next?
30. Re:And one other thing... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 15:35 · Score: 0
  
  > (Score:-1)
  Sad to see the mods here have no respect for people that have actual experience with something. I've had my life made more difficult many more times since upgrading to Red Hat 7 since systemd doesn't log most error messages. Yes, too many Sys V init scripts logged messages to the console so they were lost forever if you weren't watching, but that's better than losing them completely!
31. Re: And one other thing... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 15:35 · Score: 0
  
  Or worse, JBoss. It sucks when it doesn't start and systemd just doesn't log the error.
32. Re: And one other thing... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 15:42 · Score: 0
  
  where is g spot located?
33. Re:And one other thing... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 15:45 · Score: 0
  
  You people are retarded.
34. Re: And one other thing... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 15:53 · Score: 0
  
  Because Lennart doesn't understand its importance?
35. Re:And one other thing... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 15:53 · Score: 0
  
  Complaining shaming is sad.
  Complaining is hate speech.
  Labeling something hate speech without first enumerating your privileges is violence.
36. Re: And one other thing... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 15:55 · Score: 0
  
  You should meet my boyfriend. He never swallows!
37. Re: And one other thing... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 16:01 · Score: 0
  
  Same here. My life is shit. I don't understand the decision to just swallow log messages.
38. Re: And one other thing... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 16:08 · Score: 0
  
  Try the butt. No one thinks to look there. Great hiding spot for the g.
39. Re: And one other thing... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 16:09 · Score: 0
  
  The maintainers of systemd don't grok why that is important.
40. Re:And one other thing... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 16:18 · Score: -1
  
  > unit files are so much simpler than init scripts!
  Uhh, why was that voted down? That is true. Just because they don't provide proper exit statuses or log stderr or syslog messages to the journal doesn't make that untrue. I know systemd has made my life a living hell, but unit files are much simpler than start-up Bash scripts.
41. Re: And one other thing... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 16:22 · Score: 0
  
  The maintainers of systemd are too inexperienced to understand why that is important.
42. Re: And one other thing... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 16:22 · Score: 0
  
  systemd still sucks though.
43. Re:And one other thing... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 16:27 · Score: -1
  
  systemd is a great improvement
  Why was this voted down? It is better even tough it doesn't correctly log messages, especially stderr, and it doesn't support exit statuses. /. has just gone to crap.
44. Re: And one other thing... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 16:29 · Score: 0
  
  Same here. I don't get why they can't log messages.
45. Re: And one other thing... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 16:31 · Score: 0
  
  found it thanks
46. Re: And one other thing... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 16:32 · Score: -1
  
  n1gger
47. Re:And one other thing... by Ziest · 2017-06-17 16:33 · Score: 1
  
  Here is the solution to the systemd infection.
  ftp://linuxmafia.com/kb/Debian...
  
  --
  Another day closer to redwood heaven
48. Re: And one other thing... by Ziest · 2017-06-17 16:33 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  You can solve your systemd infection here
  ftp://linuxmafia.com/kb/Debian...
  
  --
  Another day closer to redwood heaven
49. Re: And one other thing... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 16:36 · Score: 0
  
  But why can't they pass exit statuses? It's just ridiculous that they don't.
50. Re:And one other thing... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 16:43 · Score: 0
  
  journal tool is not called journal, but instead journalctl and systemd's main program is not called systemd but instead systemctl
  
  That is a major problem for the guys working under me. I wished the systemd guys had picked clearer names.
51. Re: And one other thing... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 16:44 · Score: 0
  
  Looks like it's a child process that returns the non-zero exit code. I would say it's probably a bug in the mongo service file.
52. Re: And one other thing... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 16:44 · Score: 0
  
  The systemd guys obviously don't care about that. Or passing correct exit statuses.
53. Re: And one other thing... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 16:46 · Score: 0
  
  The daemon may exit after it has demonized. Systemctl start has to return at some point.
54. Re: And one other thing... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 16:50 · Score: 0
  
  Exit statuses are critical.
55. Re: And one other thing... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 16:55 · Score: 0
  
  They just don't get why they are important.
56. Re:And one other thing... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 16:56 · Score: 0
  
  Who does that? People who want the upgrade when it arrives. It's not set up like that by default.
57. Re:And one other thing... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 17:05 · Score: 0
  
  > 1,200 line shell script with a 17 line unit file
  Why in the hell was this endorsement of systemd voted down?
58. Re:And one other thing... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 17:12 · Score: 0
  
  Too many youngsters now have mod points. They don't understand why exit statuses or syslog is important. The fact that systemd drops stderr and syslog messages makes it just terrible.
59. Re: And one other thing... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 17:26 · Score: -1
  
  Except it's not critiquing. It's complaining. A critique would highlight the the pros and cons, weigh them up, and make assertions about relative merit.
  I see none of that. I just see whiney little bitch ass butthurt nerd who isn't happy to just install Devuan and get on with his life.
60. Re: And one other thing... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 17:38 · Score: 0
  
  No problem.
61. Re: And one other thing... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 18:28 · Score: 0
  
  Why can't it pass the exit status up to the shell?
  I have no clue why they can't fix that, but it sucks that systemd doesn't support returning a proper exit status.
62. Re:And one other thing... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 19:05 · Score: 1
  
  So go use Devuan?
  I will, the next time I upgrade. (Still using Xubuntu 14.04.)
  The other oddity here: I'm a professional astronomer, and I don't see any reason to try Debian Astro Pure Blend. Any astronomy-related software is either packaged for Debian (in which case I've already installed it through apt), or not packaged for Debian (in which case it won't be in Debian Astro either). What's the point of a "Pure Blend" distribution when all you need is a list of package names to feed to apt-get?
63. Re: And one other thing... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 21:06 · Score: 0
  
  Tbh, sounds like they're *your* problems.Why don't you fix them, instead of anonymously bitching on the internet?
64. Re:And one other thing... by Hognoxious · 2017-06-17 21:18 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  Because some of us prefer 1,200 lines that work with 17 that don't?
  
  --
  Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
65. Re: And one other thing... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 21:28 · Score: 0
  
  It are de ways ob they're kind. They hates us.
66. Re:And one other thing... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 21:34 · Score: 0
  
  If you have no understanding of the technical reasons smart people are against systemd and are only seeing it as political opinion or as an acute case of snowflake mutation then I truly hope you are not working in the IT field and suggest you consider joining a SJW group : you would fit perfectly.
67. Re:And one other thing... by mvdwege · 2017-06-17 22:17 · Score: 1
  
  the technical reasons smart people are against systemd
  And what would those be?
  
  --
  "I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
68. Re:And one other thing... by F.Ultra · 2017-06-17 22:26 · Score: 1
  
  I think that it's for users who don't know all those packages to feed to apt and who want to simply install a single meta-package, say "Virtual Observatory" and thus get all the packages included there installed automatically. As I understand it these pure blends is not special versions of Debian either but more working groups that create and maintain these meta-packages that you can install from a vanilla Debian 9.
69. Re:And one other thing... by F.Ultra · 2017-06-17 22:29 · Score: 1
  
  I see no critiquing, almost every single anti systemd post on Slashdot for the last years have been crybullying. And the GP in particular was crybullying, nothing more.
70. Re: And one other thing... by F.Ultra · 2017-06-17 22:43 · Score: 1
  
  "systemctl start" schedules the service to start, it does not start it there and then. You might still not like it but systemd is an event driven system and not a "execute this particular bash shell" type of system, so one cannot use systemctl as a straight drop in replacement for how sysv worked, it works differently.
  Note that you had this kind of behaviour in some sysv scripts as well so it was more of a hit and miss in sysv. I.e daemons that could take a very long time to start like say MySQL had init scripts that forked and then sysv would return OK when the actual daemon could very well fail a few second later. So with systemd we actually now have a consistent handling and not the old hit and miss but you have to adopt to the new way for the daemons where sysv happened to be "hit"
71. Re:And one other thing... by F.Ultra · 2017-06-17 22:49 · Score: 1
  
  I guess that the sysv script run pre start tests like checking that lock file and where the ones producting the logs while the systemd unit file for mongodb is just starting mongodb straight up and thus is not getting these particular logs because mongodb does not log about them. Either mongodb should be changed to start logging these things or the systemd unit file should be changed to include those pre start tests that the old sysv script had.
  So the problem is not with systemd itself but with the sysv to systemd transition.
72. Re: And one other thing... by F.Ultra · 2017-06-17 22:52 · Score: 1
  
  Please provide the contents of "/usr/lib/systemd/system/mongod.service" either by cat "/usr/lib/systemd/system/mongod.service" or "systemctl cat mongod.service".
73. Re: And one other thing... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 23:21 · Score: 0
  
  Exactly my thoughts. This is Open Source stuff, they can surely download the source of systemctl then grep the return code in one of those *.c files, then rebuild it on their own. Isn't this the advantage of Open Source Software which the community always brags about? Fixing bugs once they've discovered it.
74. Re:And one other thing... by myowntrueself · 2017-06-18 02:02 · Score: 1
  
  Complaining shaming is sad.
  Complaining is hate speech.
  Labeling something hate speech without first enumerating your privileges is violence.
  Any communication might cause offense. Therefore all forms of communication must be banned.
  
  --
  In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
75. Re:And one other thing... by myowntrueself · 2017-06-18 02:04 · Score: 1
  
  You people are retarded.
  Thats hate speech on two levels! Hate speech against me and hate speech against differently abled people!
  
  --
  In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
76. Re: And one other thing... by CronoCloud · 2017-06-18 02:04 · Score: 1
  
  It can and does, it just depends on how the distro has set it up.
77. Re: And one other thing... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-18 03:09 · Score: 0
  
  Use systemd in a production environment and find out. The hard way.
78. Re: And one other thing... by mvdwege · 2017-06-18 04:58 · Score: 1
  
  In other words, parotted bullshit, no reasons.
  
  --
  "I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
79. Re: And one other thing... by bill_mcgonigle · 2017-06-18 05:34 · Score: 1
  
  In other words, parotted bullshit, no reasons.
  Yeah, that's mostly what I see. I get that some people don't want a C application running their init system and would rather have shell scripts. That's fine.
  I run a couple dozen unique instances with systemd and I don't see the problems that they keep saying are inherent. I can't claim that nobody hits them, but I don't and I enjoy fast/parallel boot times. It's especially useful with complex storage stacks and virtualization when there are multiple levels of dependencies.
  The complainers seem to ignore the fact that there are millions of systemd-based systems in production and then claim that they can''t work. Ignoring reality is a great way to get me to tune out really quick.
  
  --
  My God, it's Full of Source!
  OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
80. Re:And one other thing... by serviscope_minor · 2017-06-18 06:36 · Score: 1
  
  the last years have been crybullying
  If that's above your threshold for bullying then oh boy are you a sensitive little snowflake.
  
  --
  SJW n. One who posts facts.
81. Re:And one other thing... by serviscope_minor · 2017-06-18 06:42 · Score: 1
  
  And what would those be?
  Very hard to debug problems, for one. For example, on this here very laptop, after I unplug it from the power it cleanly shuts itself down after a period of maybe 20 to 30 minutes. It's not running the upower daemon, and everything related to battery level is set to 0.
  There's nothing in the log indicating why it's shutting down or where the shutdown command is coming from. So far, no one has ever suggested a new place to look or a new avenue to try---well excepting one guy who said "it's your window manager moron", though he went silent of course when I pointed out my window manager is FVWM.
  I've never had an undebuggable problem on the older boot systems.
  
  --
  SJW n. One who posts facts.
82. Re:And one other thing... by F.Ultra · 2017-06-18 07:17 · Score: 1
  
  Read all the posts from AC:s regarding systemd to this article and tell me how you can come to a different conclusion. There are tons of "Poettering don't know about exit codes", "systemd eats logs" and so forth. None of them are true and all of them are crybullying.
83. Re:And one other thing... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-18 08:17 · Score: 0
  
  Complaining shaming is sad.
  Complaining is hate speech.
  Labeling something hate speech without first enumerating your privileges is violence.
  Any communication might cause offense. Therefore all forms of communication must be banned.
  Agreed! All communications shall be banned henceforth. While we're at it shall we also agree that bans be banned (expect for this ban banning bans)? I'll take your non-response (due to the communication ban) as confirmation!
84. Re:And one other thing... by 0100010001010011 · 2017-06-18 08:21 · Score: 1
  
  almost every single anti systemd post on Slashdot for the last years have been crybullying.
  tmpfiles: R! /dir/.* destroys root
  poettering commented on Mar 30: I am not sure I'd consider this much of a problem. Yeah, it's a UNIX pitfall, but "rm -rf /foo/.*" will work the exact same way, no?
  Again:
  
  Bug Security IT Linux
  Running "rm -rf /" Is Now Bricking Linux Systems (phoronix.com) 699
  Posted by timothy on Monday February 01, 2016 @08:56AM from the now-you-can-troll-harder dept.
  An anonymous reader writes:
  For newer systems utilizing UEFI, running rm -rf / is enough to permanently brick your system. While it's a trivial command to run on Linux systems, Windows and other operating systems are also prone to this issue when using UEFI. The problem comes down to UEFI variables being mounted with read/write permissions and when recursively deleting everything, the UEFI variables get wiped too. Systemd developers have rejected mounting the EFI variables as read-only, since there are valid use-cases for writing to them. Mounting them read-only can also break other applications, so for now there is no good solution to avoid potentially bricking your system, but kernel developers are investigating the issue.
85. Re: And one other thing... by 0100010001010011 · 2017-06-18 08:23 · Score: 1
  
  tmpfiles: R! /dir/.* destroys root #5644
  poettering commented on Mar 30: I am not sure I'd consider this much of a problem. Yeah, it's a UNIX pitfall, but "rm -rf /foo/.*" will work the exact same way, no?
86. Re: And one other thing... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-18 08:39 · Score: 0
  
  Is he wrong?
87. Re: And one other thing... by mvdwege · 2017-06-18 09:12 · Score: 1
  
  I don't see you refuting Lennart's argument, actually. He is right: Unix gives you the rope to hang yourself with, and a faulty directive in a systemd unit is as bad as a typo in a shell command (or a SysV startup script).
  
  --
  "I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
88. Re:And one other thing... by akozakie · 2017-06-18 09:20 · Score: 1
  
  So, you're a paying customer of the strongest commercial backer of systemd? Did you let them know about this? Did you complain about losses and asked for explanation on plans to correct the problems, in order to decide on your way forward, including whether or not to stay on their solution?
  Because that is the only meaningful way of influencing their decisions. If customers are angry, then s..t like this either gets fixed or rolled back (note - you don't get to choose the option, they do; you should only care if it works or not). If not, then it's business as usual.
89. Re:And one other thing... by F.Ultra · 2017-06-18 09:24 · Score: 1
  
  Just ignore the fact that it was fixed on Mar 27, 3 days before that Poettering quote. Yes he was wrong, I never said that he was infallible. That people still bring this issue up as "systemd is bad" is part of the crybullying yes, or are we now pretending that "rm" is completely fucked up because it once had the same bug (Poetterings fault was of course that he believed that rm still had that particular bug)? I don't think so.
90. Re: And one other thing... by squiggleslash · 2017-06-18 09:27 · Score: 2
  
  Almost everyone who runs a production GNU/Linux system in 2017 runs systemd. If it were even 1% as bad as the systemd trolls claim, GNU/Linux on the server would be radically losing marketshare to FreeBSD and even Windows. It isn't.
  
  --
  You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
91. Re: And one other thing... by 0100010001010011 · 2017-06-18 10:15 · Score: 1
  
  He is right:
  Try it. He's not. That has never worked that way. Unix is smart enough to cut the rope for you if you try to hang yourself with that.
  root@m6700:/tmp# ls -lah total 8.0K drwxrwxrwt 2 root root 4.0K Jun 18 22:12 . drwxr-xr-x 21 root root 4.0K Jun 18 22:12 .. root@m6700:/tmp# touch .Hello root@m6700:/tmp# mkdir .World root@m6700:/tmp# rm -rf /tmp/.* rm: refusing to remove '.' or '..' directory: skipping '/tmp/.' rm: refusing to remove '.' or '..' directory: skipping '/tmp/..' root@m6700:/tmp# ls -lah total 8.0K drwxrwxrwt 2 root root 4.0K Jun 18 22:14 . drwxr-xr-x 21 root root 4.0K Jun 18 22:12 ..
92. Re: And one other thing... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-18 10:17 · Score: 0
  
  Why is it not called systemschedule then if it controls only a scheduler and not the system?
93. Re: And one other thing... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-18 11:00 · Score: 0
  
  Ad populum works on the corporate managers, not the nerds.
94. Re: And one other thing... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-18 12:00 · Score: 0
  
  Why would you keep those 17 lines that don't work in your 1200-line script?
  Just comment them out!
95. Re:And one other thing... by ras · 2017-06-18 13:21 · Score: 2
  
  Because some of us prefer 1,200 lines that work with 17 that don't?
  If indeed it was just 17 lines of code that didn't work they might have a point. It's not so hard to fix 17 lines of code. In fact the reason we like 1200 lines of code is because we can fix it.
  The reason we don't like those 17 lines of code is they are really 1,139,536 lines of code hiding behind 17 lines of configuration. Worse it's not just 1 million lines of simple C, but multiple processes communicating through a horrid RPC system that makes the entire thing utterly opaque.
  I didn't think there could be anything that could make me pine for the days I could fix a problem just debugging 1200 written in one of the worst programming languages on the planet (shell script) - but bless his black little heart, Lennart has managed to prove to me I was wrong.
96. Re: And one other thing... by mvdwege · 2017-06-18 19:50 · Score: 1
  
  Sigh. Whining about a technicality in an example may make you feel like you're smart, to the rest of the world you're just a dick.
  
  --
  "I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
97. Re: And one other thing... by pnutjam · 2017-06-19 00:31 · Score: 1
  
  I have no problem with SystemD and use it at home and on some production systems.
  However, there are a huge number of Red Hat using companies who are sticking with RH 6 because of systemd. Most of them will eventually go to RH 7 and systemd, but until 2020, RH will continue to support their pre-systemd Enterprise release.
  
  --
  Cheap storage VM.
98. Re:And one other thing... by Bengie · 2017-06-19 00:33 · Score: 1
  
  SystemD was designed assuming the happy path. Kind of like what you get from a freshman CS student. When crap hits the fan, the failure modes are largely undefined. There's also the difficult to port aspect, which is a bad thing for these kinds of projects that typically lend themselves well to porting. And some repetition and inconsistencies. SystemD is the PHP init systems. I know it's not just init, but that's what it's known for. At one point there was an open bug that got closed as "working as intended". The person who submitted it got lambasted by the primary dev for thinking the logs getting corrupted by an unexpected shutdown was a bug. Of course it's a feature! Why would you ever expect your logs to be in working order when you machine crashes? Ohh.. maybe to try to figure out why it crashed.
  
  The whole project reeks of of NIH syndrome. It was created for a good reason, and the concept is great, but the implementation is left wanting in design and has a tenancy to keep swallowing up other projects. Why does SystemD need a DHCP server built into it, an NTP client, a NAT?! Because they can, I guess.
  
  SystemD: Why do one thing well when you can do everything half-assed?
99. Re: And one other thing... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-19 00:56 · Score: 0
  
  find /tmp/.* -delete
  will happily remove / too. Is it a find bug? Nope. . and .. do match .* glob. An application may provide a safeguard, but it's not *required* to do so.
100. Re:And one other thing... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-19 01:03 · Score: 0
  
  1200 lines of shell script invoke a shitload of utilities written in C. So if you decide to go deeper with systemd, you should also count and sum LoC of all utils which are called from your scripts.
101. Re:And one other thing... by mvdwege · 2017-06-19 01:47 · Score: 1
  
  I see lots of unfounded assertions. I am not impressed.
  
  --
  "I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
102. Re: And one other thing... by 0100010001010011 · 2017-06-19 03:12 · Score: 1
  
  So your argument went from: "He's Right" to "You're a dick for pointing out he's not right".
  Because he was NOT right. Not only was he not right he was completely wrong. I discovered that 'feature' way back when I was learning UNIX on OS X 10.0.
  How does the person that wrote the next gen init glob not know that?
103. Re:And one other thing... by Bengie · 2017-06-19 04:49 · Score: 1
  
  Subjective opinions aside, the fact that the lead dev gave someone a tongue lashing over expecting his logs to be at-least partially usable after a system crash so he could figure out why it crashed, is absurd. His recommendation was to expect no logs to be viable and just throw them out. This was after it was already in CentOS stable as the default.
  
  I have never seen a system that corrupted all of the log data from an unexpected shutdown, only possibly the last little bit or the FS taking a crap, but that's orthogonal to the discussion. I wish I kept the link, but this was all on SystemD's official bug tracker. My opinion is warranted to think that SystemD is a "happy path" kind of design.
104. Re:And one other thing... by mvdwege · 2017-06-19 06:20 · Score: 1
  
  I have never seen a system that corrupted all of the log data from an unexpected shutdown
  I have. Since we now have competing anecdotes, how about some actual arguments for a change?
  Oh no, all you do is parrot talking points. Here's a cracker, Polly.
  
  --
  "I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
105. Re: And one other thing... by F.Ultra · 2017-06-19 09:30 · Score: 1
  
  Because no one wants to have that long command names on Unix? All the new init systems like systemd, upstart and smf are event driven. With sysv as I said you only have hit and miss and people using the exit code from the sysv scripts have just been lucky that it's worked somewhat for them combined with the fact that some of the old sysv scripts contained pre flight checks that the people who ported them to systemd unit files forgot to add.
106. Re: And one other thing... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-19 21:35 · Score: 0
  
  # find /tmp/.* -delete
  will happily remove your root, too. Does it mean that find is buggy? -- nope. .* glob matches both . and .. -- so find has all rights to delete them. It could have implemented a safeguard to disallow this, but it's not required to do so. The same goes for systemd.
  rm doesn't allow . and .. removal because such behavior is required by POSIX.
107. Re:And one other thing... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-19 21:43 · Score: 0
  
  > If indeed it was just 17 lines of code that didn't work they might have a point. It's not so hard to fix 17 lines of code. In fact the reason we like 1200 lines of code is because we can fix it.
  >
  > The reason we don't like those 17 lines of code is they are really 1,139,536 lines of code hiding behind 17 lines of configuration.
  1200 lines of shell code run a lot of external utilities for almost anything. These utilities are mostly written in C. Furthermore, the shell which runs these 1200 LoC is written in C, too. So if you decide to count systemd's lines of code, you should really count LoC of your shell and all utilities it runs, too.
  And if you ask me, I'd prefer fixing relatively simple systemd rather than Turing-complete complex shell.
108. Re: And one other thing... by Rakarra · 2017-06-20 09:14 · Score: 1
  
  Done. Most of us have no issue with it in a production environment. Try again.
109. Re:And one other thing... by Bengie · 2017-06-21 00:38 · Score: 1
  
  Better a parrot than an astroturfing apologetic shill that doesn't understand the difference between the filesystem corrupting log data or the logger corrupting log data.Then again, "Arguing on the internet is like running at the special olympics...". Sometimes giving up is the correct response.
110. Re: And one other thing... by Eunuchswear · 2017-06-25 20:14 · Score: 1
  
  That has never worked that way.
  What, never? Never worked that way? Are you sure?
  
  --
  Watch this Heartland Institute video
111. Re:And one other thing... by Eunuchswear · 2017-06-25 20:17 · Score: 1
  
  the fact that the lead dev gave someone a tongue lashing over expecting his logs to be at-least partially usable after a system crash
  Amusing anecdote. Pity it's not true.
  
  --
  Watch this Heartland Institute video
112. Re:And one other thing... by Eunuchswear · 2017-06-25 20:19 · Score: 1
  
  The bigger problem is that messages that used to show on the console with SysV init scripts are now no longer showed on the console, and they are not logged in the journal. That makes troubleshooting a pain in the neck. Simple problems, like a /var/lib/mongodb/mongod.lock hanging around after a power problem which prevents MongoDB from restarting, can take a while to trackdown since nothing logs that error
  Repost of trolling from over a year ago.
  
  --
  Watch this Heartland Institute video
Simple question by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 13:28 · Score: 0

How does this affect anyone? Why does this matter? Linux has 2% market share, and Debian is a small fraction of that. Why is this news? Perhaps Slashdot can also post a story about my hello world program that I just wrote in Java. It's about as relevant as this story.
1. Re:Simple question by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 13:34 · Score: 0
  
  Debian is the basis for dozens of well known Linux distros. It is also the second most popular distro according to Distrowatch.
  I'd say that news of a new release is relevant to lots of people, unlike your comment.
2. Re:Simple question by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 13:34 · Score: -1
  
  debian is the base from which many other distributions are built. debian stable is a standard which developers create software for and test against. debian is one of the two main anchors of the entire linux ecosystem (rhel, not fedora, being the other). so ya, it matters, a lot.
3. Re:Simple question by uM0p+ap!sdn+ · 2017-06-17 13:56 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  Debian is the leader
  Oh, so you think ubuntu is, hrhr
  Like most people like you that have no clue, without debian, ubuntu wouldn't exist, ubuntu is based on debian.
  It's astonishing how many people don't know that
  Now, go play with your antiviri, malware, spybot, rootkit, updaters and reboot a few dozen times in between updates and in the mean time, I will get some work done on my debian sid system.
  http://distrowatch.com/index.p... 7 days or 6 months debian is #1
  Windows people, can't live with them ..... We can live without them
4. Re: Simple question by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 14:29 · Score: 0
  
  Linux may not have a large desktop market share, but the chances of some website you like running on Linux are very high, indeed, and Debian-based systems have a large share of those servers.
5. Re:Simple question by Stormwatch · 2017-06-17 14:34 · Score: 1
  
  antiviri
  What is an "against men"?
  
  --
  Circumcision is child abuse.
6. Re:Simple question by slashdice · 2017-06-17 16:01 · Score: 2
  
  We all know the most popular Linux distro is a 5 year old version of Android.
  
  --
  Copyright (c) 1990 - 2014 Dice. All rights reserved. Use of this comment is subject to certain Terms and Conditions.
7. Re: Simple question by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 17:30 · Score: 0
  
  In the real world, we differentiate across several cases. Back to school, little child.
8. Re:Simple question by smallfries · 2017-06-17 21:02 · Score: 1
  
  Anti-viri, eh? Gosh that sounds almost as clever as "television" and other frankenstein words. Did you know that anti- is derived from Greek?
  
  --
  Slashdot: where don knuth is an idiot because he cant grasp the awesome power of php
9. Re:Simple question by Hognoxious · 2017-06-17 21:37 · Score: 1
  
  So what? It exists in Latin. Would you consider something a "Frankenstein word" if part of it ultimately came from Indo-European or Etruscan?
  
  --
  Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
10. Re:Simple question by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-18 00:49 · Score: 0
  
  Where did Linux go so wrong? Back in 2000 something Linux was so cool, so hip; it was the hipster tech. Wow it's the basis of a bunch of granny phones and installed on a spare partition on a few fat kid's gaming PCs. Sad!
11. Re:Simple question by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-18 00:50 · Score: 0
  
  "Anti-viri, eh? Gosh that"
  Go peck shit with the chickens.
12. Re:Simple question by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-18 00:53 · Score: 0
  
  another M$ sock puppet!
13. Re:Simple question by smallfries · 2017-06-18 01:20 · Score: 1
  
  Somebody pretenious enough to use "virii" really should know better.
  
  --
  Slashdot: where don knuth is an idiot because he cant grasp the awesome power of php
14. Re:Simple question by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-18 04:04 · Score: 0
  
  The problem is that 'virii' is pig latin. 'virus' has no plural in latin (is defective), and even if it had, it would NOT have been 'virii'. Just like 'penii', btw, another ludicrous plural invented by pretentious imbeciles.
15. Re:Simple question by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-18 05:26 · Score: 0
  
  I think this guy powers his entire mom's basement with his own self satisfaction. Anyone who actually works with real businesses know that Windows is not going away any time soon. Linux is and always will be a great server OS, but nobody uses it on the desktop unless they are a developer or a tinkerer.
16. Re:Simple question by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-18 05:28 · Score: 0
  
  Not sure I agree, in some circles maybe but I would say developers typically target Ubuntu nowadays.
17. Re:Simple question by Greyfox · 2017-06-18 06:54 · Score: 1
  
  Ubuntu should be taken seriously, as they seem to be the most successful corporate takeover of Linux to date. Redhat seemed largely content to just follow along with community standards for components, but Ubuntu's been actively trying to dictate Linux standards since they started. And while I can see where they'r'e coming from with systemd and weyland, having spent the better part of the last couple years up to my ears in shitty X11 code, their tendency to dismiss actual legitimate concerns because "No one actually uses those features," is more than a little disturbing.
  
  --
  I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
18. Re:Simple question by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-18 08:04 · Score: 0
  
  debian was the leader, now it's just a redhat derivative.
19. Re:Simple question by strikethree · 2017-06-20 02:02 · Score: 1
  
  Now, go play with your antiviri, malware, spybot, rootkit, updaters and reboot a few dozen times in between updates and in the mean time, I will get some work done on my debian sid system.
  Debian ate the poison pill. Will anyone die tomorrow? Not likely. Will anything bad happen next year? Not likely. Long term, perhaps 50 years, it is guaranteed that Debian will be dead or will be used to abuse the people who use it... rather like MS Windows right now.
  
  --
  "Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
So Devuan's already obsolete? by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 13:31 · Score: 0

Looks like we're stuck with systemd
1. Re:So Devuan's already obsolete? by rstanley · 2017-06-17 13:43 · Score: -1
  
  Would you rather abandon Linux and install Windows 10?
  
  Things change, and I'm sure the switch to systemd was not a snap decision. Debian gets better with each release. I accept their decisions, and will continue to use it as my default and only Distro.
2. Re:So Devuan's already obsolete? by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 14:16 · Score: 0
  
  I'll take time tested code versus bleeding edge features any day.
3. Re: So Devuan's already obsolete? by that+this+is+not+und · 2017-06-17 14:17 · Score: 1, Interesting
  
  I would rather install and use NetBSD. You don't even need to drop into a shell and run vi anymore to configure NetBSD after installing it.
4. Re:So Devuan's already obsolete? by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 20:37 · Score: 0
  
  devuan ascii will be out shortly, it was infrastructure and initial systemd removal that took the time. The task workflow now means releases and improvements independent of debians choices will be much more frequent.
5. Re:So Devuan's already obsolete? by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 21:08 · Score: 0
  
  Looks like we're stuck with you. :-\
6. Re:So Devuan's already obsolete? by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-18 04:26 · Score: 0
  
  preseed/late_command="in-target apt-get install -y --purge sysvinit-core"
  (install restarts system)
  apt-get purge systemd && apt-get autoremove
  That gets rid of everything but systemd-udev, though you'll have to add some "-1" pin-priorities to a file in /etc/apt/preferences.d/ to make sure they don't come back.
  Oh, and add "net.ifnames=0" to the grub default line to stop renaming eth0 and wlan0 etc.
7. Re:So Devuan's already obsolete? by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-18 05:57 · Score: 0
  
  Oh, and add "net.ifnames=0" to the grub default line to stop renaming eth0 and wlan0 etc.
  Yeah, having your interface names depend on device enumeration order is a great idea.
  Just remember to never have a system with more than 1 PCIe NIC...
I HAVE A GREASED UP YODA DOLL SHOVED UP MY ASS!!!! by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 13:41 · Score: -1

GO LINUX!!!!!
"95 different Debian derivatives" by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 13:50 · Score: 0

That explains the problem with Linux more than anything else. All of the new users I've dealt with in the 24 years I've used Linux were more confused by the different distributions than any other single thing. This has been and looks like it will always be a major problem.
1. Re:"95 different Debian derivatives" by McGiraf · 2017-06-17 16:10 · Score: 2
  
  Yep, confused people were , are and will be a major problem. Not just with Debian.
2. Re:"95 different Debian derivatives" by drinkypoo · 2017-06-17 17:57 · Score: 1
  
  All of the new users I've dealt with in the 24 years I've used Linux were more confused by the different distributions than any other single thing.
  If they're confused by the idea that different people can release slightly tweaked versions of Linux, I submit that they will spend most of their lives confused in any case, and there is nothing that can be done to fix it.
  
  --
  "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
3. Re:"95 different Debian derivatives" by F.Ultra · 2017-06-17 22:32 · Score: 1
  
  That's why I gave up on food. Too much variety to choose from.
4. Re:"95 different Debian derivatives" by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 23:29 · Score: 0
  
  Nice knowing you, fuckmuffin.
5. Re:"95 different Debian derivatives" by pnutjam · 2017-06-19 00:42 · Score: 1
  
  Winner, winner, Chicken Dinner.
  It's amazing how many people manage to go through life in a state of perpetual confusion.
  
  --
  Cheap storage VM.
6. Re:"95 different Debian derivatives" by Rakarra · 2017-06-22 04:51 · Score: 1
  
  All of the new users I've dealt with in the 24 years I've used Linux were more confused by the different distributions than any other single thing.
  If they're confused by the idea that different people can release slightly tweaked versions of Linux, I submit that they will spend most of their lives confused in any case, and there is nothing that can be done to fix it.
  About Linux? Yes. About other things? Not necessary.
Re: by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 13:56 · Score: 0

Its ok, you are running MongoDB, which means you already have low (or small if you prefer) expectations.
systemd not by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 14:11 · Score: 5, Informative

You can use a debian derivative without systemd, for example, my favorite...
MX Linux, based on Debian stable
See this
https://mxlinux.org/
and the great forum here
https://forum.mxlinux.org/search.php?search_id=active_topics
A great community, low snark, up to date community repository with the latest and goodies.
Useful MX tools for common tasks.
NO systemd, it uses the older init
1. Re: systemd not by rknop · 2017-06-17 23:52 · Score: 3, Interesting
  
  Devuan is a fork of Debian that eschews systemd. It works well for me; indeed, I've been using Devuan testing, and my network of nfs-using machines have been more stable and less trouble than they were under Ubuntu. I recommend it. The more people who use systemd-free distros, the less likely systemd is to take over everything.
2. Re: systemd not by WallyL · 2017-06-19 04:55 · Score: 1
  
  I tried Devuan on a vm and it was flaky on the xfce firefox youtube playback. I decided to give it a whirl on an 11-year-old Dell Latitude D630 and everything was amazingly smooth! I have not actually tried debian on it yet, and don't care to, but it is way smoother interface than the Korora 25 Cinnamon install I had on it before.
  This dinky little D630 that is your grandpa's laptop is making a devuan believer out of me...
Attack of the anons! by Gravis+Zero · 2017-06-17 14:14 · Score: 3, Funny

That makes two things that brings out the anon trolls in droves: Net neutrality and Systemd.

--
Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
1. Re:Attack of the anons! by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 15:02 · Score: 0
  
  Why call people trolls that point out the problems with systemd swallowing log messages and not providing proper exit statuses? Yes, the idea of systemd is great, but the implementation sucks and not recognizing the problems with it means they won't get fixed.
2. Re:Attack of the anons! by somenickname · 2017-06-17 15:11 · Score: 2
  
  Why call people trolls that point out the problems with systemd swallowing log messages and not providing proper exit statuses?
  Because this is a post about a new release of Debian stable and not a post about systemd. This is Slashdot and flooding a post with systemd hate is just beating a dead horse at this point. Most Slashdot users agree: Systemd sucks. But, there is no need to shit on every Linux post with systemd hate. We get it.
  
  Yes, the idea of systemd is great
  Actually, I take that back. You *don't* get it.
3. Re:Attack of the anons! by rmdingler · 2017-06-17 15:39 · Score: 1
  
  Debian stable
  and deceased equine.
  I see what you did there.
  
  --
  Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.
  Ernest Hemingway
4. Re:Attack of the anons! by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 19:20 · Score: 0
  
  Release the Kraken!
5. Re:Attack of the anons! by F.Ultra · 2017-06-17 22:35 · Score: 1
  
  Because it's a proven lie? systemd does not swallow log messages, it presents and stores far more logs than sysv did. And the complaint about exit codes are due to either pure lies or people trying to use "systemctl start " as a drop in replacement for "/etc/init.d/ start" which it's not.
6. Re:Attack of the anons! by Cito · 2017-06-18 02:17 · Score: 1
  
  well to be absolutely fair, systemd is the worst thing ever and has ruined Linux's long lived Posix standard until Poettering, who created the abortion known as Pulse, actually manipulated his way into ruined it thanks to RedHat
7. Re:Attack of the anons! by Gravis+Zero · 2017-06-18 03:32 · Score: 1
  
  I think maybe RedHat needed something to cement its position as lead supporter for Linux systems or maybe they needed more change for the sake of change. I don't know for sure but it sure doesn't seem like their changes are motivated by benevolence. I do agree though that Poettering seems like an instrument of their will.
  Don't worry too much, though. If I've learned anything from open source, it's that long term survival is based on merit.
  
  --
  Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
8. Re:Attack of the anons! by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-18 10:07 · Score: 0
  
  But I thought systemd was only a replacement for init system?
9. Re:Attack of the anons! by F.Ultra · 2017-06-19 09:34 · Score: 1
  
  There's a difference between a drop-in replacement and a replacement. All the new init systems like systemd, upstart and smf are event driven, and are so for a good reason. The old sysv system was completely hit and miss when it came to exit codes so all those posts complaining that they puppet scripts no longer work had problems on sysv as well. And if you think about it any daemon can die at any time after launch so you must have some other way of checking the status of them anyway (if systemctl return with an exit code of 0 and the daemon failed it's because the daemon failed after it told systemctl that it was up and running).
Boners! by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 14:27 · Score: 0

Even straight guys love em.
1. Re:Boners! by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 15:42 · Score: 0
  
  Dude, I always wanted to tell you that the cloths you wear do not look that good on you. Please be more classy! It is for your well-being. Just an advice from a friend.
WTF moderators? by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 14:44 · Score: 0

He described specific problems with systemd, that I've also seen, but he was voted down to a -1. How about fixing problems instead of just burying them?
Re: by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 14:50 · Score: 0

True. Building on a poor foundation makes life hard, but systemd should at least not return a 0 when it doesn't start.
Congratulations by somenickname · 2017-06-17 14:52 · Score: 5, Insightful

New releases of Debian stable *should* make the front page of Slashdot. It's a proper Big Deal. You can make a huge list of things that Debian stable is not: Not the most used distro, not the most user friendly distro, not the most up to date distro, not the most "libre" distro, etc... But, if you want to find a distro that meets one of those criteria, it's probably based on Debian. When they release a new stable version, the entire open source community benefits.
Here's to decades more of Debian stable!
1. Re:Congratulations by drinkypoo · 2017-06-17 17:07 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  New releases of Debian were a lot more exciting before systemd. Now I only care about new releases of Devuan.
  
  --
  "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
2. Re:Congratulations by influenza · 2017-06-17 19:18 · Score: 1
  
  I agree, Debian stable releases are very high quality. I've been using stretch on a few systems (desktop and non-production server) for a couple of months and there are major improvements all over the place. Excellent work Debian!
3. Re:Congratulations by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 21:10 · Score: 0, Flamebait
  
  So then why comment in a Debian post? Oh, wait, to troll. Cunt.
4. Re:Congratulations by Dolda2000 · 2017-06-18 00:51 · Score: 1
  
  Systemd is just the default on Debian, and is trivial to replace by whatever you like. I do agree that Debian would be a better distribution if systemd weren't the default, but nevertheless, all you need to do is apt-get install sysvinit-core.
5. Re:Congratulations by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-18 02:07 · Score: 0
  
  For some of us the init part of systemd is (apart from the run level one aspects) not the part of systemd we're trying to remove, it's all the rest. Tell me, is it trivial to remove that as well?
6. Re:Congratulations by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-18 05:45 · Score: 0
  
  And magically all the packages with dependencies on systemd are fixed?
7. Re:Congratulations by antdude · 2017-06-18 09:37 · Score: 1
  
  Yep, I use stable and oldstable (wait a few months before doing the big upgrades) on my desktop/workstation machines. My Linux friends say I am crazy for doing that and should use testing (to them, it is stable enough). I just don't want to deal things breaking!
  
  --
  Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
8. Re:Congratulations by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-20 03:09 · Score: 0
  
  If only! Even Synaptic now depends on systemd.
  Once a large scale project loses its collective mind, does it ever go sane again, or can it only be abandoned and/or rebooted from first principles?
B=====D~~~ by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 14:54 · Score: -1

This announcement gives me the biggest boner! Normally I'd complain about updates regarding the latest release of any one software. A prerelease announcement of Debian, though?! Giggity! My precum is already dripping!
Trump 2020!
1. Re:B=====D~~~ by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 15:09 · Score: -1
  
  I recommend it. My cum is swallowed by systemd.
Re: by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 15:11 · Score: 0

Why I in the f*** does systemd return a zero when a service doesn't start?
Debian's downloads still show Jessie! by antdude · 2017-06-17 15:21 · Score: 1

Are they late?

--
Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
Re: by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 15:21 · Score: 0

Because Lennart doesn't understand them?
Re: by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 15:44 · Score: 0

He is young. Give him time.
plus 2, T#roll) by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 18:38 · Score: -1

very sick and its come Here but n&ow megs of ram runs the problems
VUA incoming! by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-17 20:31 · Score: 0

Looks like there are many Devuan users/devs around here today...
Re: by mvdwege · 2017-06-17 22:19 · Score: 1

Because the service doesn't? Really, nothing is a defense against shoddy software, so neither is systemd./p

--
"I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
Question by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-18 02:19 · Score: 0

Does the GNOME version support Wayland?
Re: by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-18 04:12 · Score: 0

Why I in the f*** does systemd return a zero when a service doesn't start?
Because it's an *asynchronous* start, moron.
You ever heard of CICS? IBM's transaction processing system, used to run critical systems across the world? It has a command, EXEC CICS START, to run a transaction asynchronously. Only a moron would assume that because the START command worked, the transaction it STARTed completed OK. Same here.
Some services take several seconds or minutes or longer to fully start. Do you want systemd to stop dead in its tracks waiting? You'd whinge about that for sure.
Finally, all discussion of Linux on /. is now *dead* due to morons bringing systemd into everthing. Fuck off and die you cunts.
flamewars of yesteryear by doom · 2017-06-18 07:27 · Score: 1

Nary a peep about this:

Firefox and Thunderbird return to Debian with the release of "Stretch", and replace their debranded versions Iceweasel and Icedove, which were present in the archive for more than 10 years.

Ah, where are the flame wars of yesteryear?
I guess Mozilla has moved on to new frontiers in alienating the open source community.
Whoa by l20502 · 2017-06-18 21:57 · Score: 1

I just recently upgraded to Jessie
Tried it again by ebvwfbw · 2017-06-19 10:36 · Score: 1

It's better. Still a quarky setup.. like asking about where to put grub when it knows damn well where. As if it even gives us a choice. Side from the installation that IMHO is overdue to be updated, it seems to be a bit better. I see no reason to switch to it from Fedora 25 with KDE, however. Probably just my preference.
Re: by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-20 03:03 · Score: 0

"Do you want systemd to stop dead in its tracks waiting?"
Like it in fact does at startup (network unavailable, two minutes), or like it in fact does when trying to shut down (unknown reason, two minutes)?
Maybe instead it should have a PENDING result code.