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Debian 9 (Stretch) Will Be Released Today (twitter.com)
The Debian Project has been liveblogging today's release of Debian 9 (Stretch) using the Twitter hashtag #releasingstretch. Some of the announcements:
- The oldstable suite (wheezy) has now been renamed to oldoldstable
- Debian jessie now been renamed to oldstable!
- The Debian stretch suites have now been renamed to stable!
- The draft debian-devel-announce post is ready, archive docs are being cleaned up
This release is named after that purple octopus in Toy Story 3, and more tantalizing tidbits of information keep appearing on Debian's micronews site:
- At least 1436 people and 18 teams contributed to Debian in 2017
- Stretch has 25,357 source packages with 9,808,465 source files
- There were 13 different themes proposed to be the official Debian stretch theme
- Debian Stretch ships with the free mathematical software SageMath, you can install it with apt
- During the stretch development, 101 contributors became Debian Developers, and 94 more become Debian Maintainers
- Debian Stretch will ship with the first release of the Debian Astro Pure Blend [for astronomers]
- Debian Popularity Contest gathers anonymous statistics about Debian packages usage from about 195,000 reports
I'm already on Slackware 14.2
So go use Devuan? Or is the anti systemd crowd now joining the SWJ, Vegan, Crossfitter crowds where they cannot stand silent for 5 minutes before announcing their special needs and wants to the world?
Critiquing technology != SJW crybullying
Without logs, simple problems can easily turn into major problems. We use Puppet to manage servers and leave SELinux enabled. With Red Hat 6, that wasn't a huge problem since you could almost always see errors on the console or in syslog. With systemd, very often there's no error shown or logged, and you have to know to check /var/log/audit/audit.log. Just checked my main dev machine, and that log file is over 300 MB long, so good luck finding and understanding what you need.
An even bigger problem is that since Puppet is very good at checking exit statuses, like traditional UNIX things, before systemd that was useful. With systemd, "systemctl start [service-name]" almost always returns a zero even though the service doesn't start. The junior guys that run Puppet don't know there's a problem until a customer or a monitoring script complains. That's a huge problem. When we ran Red Hat 6, I'm proud to say that we went over two years without any customer-facing downtime outside of maintenance hours. With Red Hat 7 and systemd, we've had four hours just this month!
Debian is the leader
Oh, so you think ubuntu is, hrhr
Like most people like you that have no clue, without debian, ubuntu wouldn't exist, ubuntu is based on debian.
It's astonishing how many people don't know that
Now, go play with your antiviri, malware, spybot, rootkit, updaters and reboot a few dozen times in between updates and in the mean time, I will get some work done on my debian sid system.
http://distrowatch.com/index.p... 7 days or 6 months debian is #1
Windows people, can't live with them ..... We can live without them
You can use a debian derivative without systemd, for example, my favorite...
MX Linux, based on Debian stable
See this
https://mxlinux.org/
and the great forum here
https://forum.mxlinux.org/search.php?search_id=active_topics
A great community, low snark, up to date community repository with the latest and goodies.
Useful MX tools for common tasks.
NO systemd, it uses the older init
That makes two things that brings out the anon trolls in droves: Net neutrality and Systemd.
Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
I would rather install and use NetBSD. You don't even need to drop into a shell and run vi anymore to configure NetBSD after installing it.
Complaining shaming is sad.
I comment occasionally so that I can mod others -1 overrated or -1 offtopic.
Lennart is too young to grok UNIX. He just doesn't get why exit statuses are important.
antiviri
What is an "against men"?
Circumcision is child abuse.
My /etc/apt/sources.list points not to stable, but to jessie. I assume most other stable users have their config set the same to avoid exactly the issue you mentioned. 'apt-get update && apt-get dist-upgrade' will not upgrade me to Stretch until I reconfigure my /etc/apt/sources.list.
So basically, you just need to have your config set up properly, and Debian will do what you say.
Complaining shaming is sad.
Complaining is hate speech.
In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
New releases of Debian stable *should* make the front page of Slashdot. It's a proper Big Deal. You can make a huge list of things that Debian stable is not: Not the most used distro, not the most user friendly distro, not the most up to date distro, not the most "libre" distro, etc... But, if you want to find a distro that meets one of those criteria, it's probably based on Debian. When they release a new stable version, the entire open source community benefits.
Here's to decades more of Debian stable!
Are they late?
Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
We all know the most popular Linux distro is a 5 year old version of Android.
Copyright (c) 1990 - 2014 Dice. All rights reserved. Use of this comment is subject to certain Terms and Conditions.
Yep, confused people were , are and will be a major problem. Not just with Debian.
Here is the solution to the systemd infection.
ftp://linuxmafia.com/kb/Debian...
Another day closer to redwood heaven
You can solve your systemd infection here
ftp://linuxmafia.com/kb/Debian...
Another day closer to redwood heaven
All of the new users I've dealt with in the 24 years I've used Linux were more confused by the different distributions than any other single thing.
If they're confused by the idea that different people can release slightly tweaked versions of Linux, I submit that they will spend most of their lives confused in any case, and there is nothing that can be done to fix it.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
So go use Devuan?
I will, the next time I upgrade. (Still using Xubuntu 14.04.)
The other oddity here: I'm a professional astronomer, and I don't see any reason to try Debian Astro Pure Blend. Any astronomy-related software is either packaged for Debian (in which case I've already installed it through apt), or not packaged for Debian (in which case it won't be in Debian Astro either). What's the point of a "Pure Blend" distribution when all you need is a list of package names to feed to apt-get?
Anti-viri, eh? Gosh that sounds almost as clever as "television" and other frankenstein words. Did you know that anti- is derived from Greek?
Slashdot: where don knuth is an idiot because he cant grasp the awesome power of php
Because some of us prefer 1,200 lines that work with 17 that don't?
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
So what? It exists in Latin. Would you consider something a "Frankenstein word" if part of it ultimately came from Indo-European or Etruscan?
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
And what would those be?
"I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
Because the service doesn't? Really, nothing is a defense against shoddy software, so neither is systemd./p
"I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
I think that it's for users who don't know all those packages to feed to apt and who want to simply install a single meta-package, say "Virtual Observatory" and thus get all the packages included there installed automatically. As I understand it these pure blends is not special versions of Debian either but more working groups that create and maintain these meta-packages that you can install from a vanilla Debian 9.
I see no critiquing, almost every single anti systemd post on Slashdot for the last years have been crybullying. And the GP in particular was crybullying, nothing more.
That's why I gave up on food. Too much variety to choose from.
"systemctl start" schedules the service to start, it does not start it there and then. You might still not like it but systemd is an event driven system and not a "execute this particular bash shell" type of system, so one cannot use systemctl as a straight drop in replacement for how sysv worked, it works differently.
Note that you had this kind of behaviour in some sysv scripts as well so it was more of a hit and miss in sysv. I.e daemons that could take a very long time to start like say MySQL had init scripts that forked and then sysv would return OK when the actual daemon could very well fail a few second later. So with systemd we actually now have a consistent handling and not the old hit and miss but you have to adopt to the new way for the daemons where sysv happened to be "hit"
I guess that the sysv script run pre start tests like checking that lock file and where the ones producting the logs while the systemd unit file for mongodb is just starting mongodb straight up and thus is not getting these particular logs because mongodb does not log about them. Either mongodb should be changed to start logging these things or the systemd unit file should be changed to include those pre start tests that the old sysv script had.
So the problem is not with systemd itself but with the sysv to systemd transition.
Please provide the contents of "/usr/lib/systemd/system/mongod.service" either by cat "/usr/lib/systemd/system/mongod.service" or "systemctl cat mongod.service".
Somebody pretenious enough to use "virii" really should know better.
Slashdot: where don knuth is an idiot because he cant grasp the awesome power of php
Complaining shaming is sad.
Complaining is hate speech.
Labeling something hate speech without first enumerating your privileges is violence.
Any communication might cause offense. Therefore all forms of communication must be banned.
In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
You people are retarded.
Thats hate speech on two levels! Hate speech against me and hate speech against differently abled people!
In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
It can and does, it just depends on how the distro has set it up.
In other words, parotted bullshit, no reasons.
"I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
In other words, parotted bullshit, no reasons.
Yeah, that's mostly what I see. I get that some people don't want a C application running their init system and would rather have shell scripts. That's fine.
I run a couple dozen unique instances with systemd and I don't see the problems that they keep saying are inherent. I can't claim that nobody hits them, but I don't and I enjoy fast/parallel boot times. It's especially useful with complex storage stacks and virtualization when there are multiple levels of dependencies.
The complainers seem to ignore the fact that there are millions of systemd-based systems in production and then claim that they can''t work. Ignoring reality is a great way to get me to tune out really quick.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
the last years have been crybullying
If that's above your threshold for bullying then oh boy are you a sensitive little snowflake.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
And what would those be?
Very hard to debug problems, for one. For example, on this here very laptop, after I unplug it from the power it cleanly shuts itself down after a period of maybe 20 to 30 minutes. It's not running the upower daemon, and everything related to battery level is set to 0.
There's nothing in the log indicating why it's shutting down or where the shutdown command is coming from. So far, no one has ever suggested a new place to look or a new avenue to try---well excepting one guy who said "it's your window manager moron", though he went silent of course when I pointed out my window manager is FVWM.
I've never had an undebuggable problem on the older boot systems.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
Ubuntu should be taken seriously, as they seem to be the most successful corporate takeover of Linux to date. Redhat seemed largely content to just follow along with community standards for components, but Ubuntu's been actively trying to dictate Linux standards since they started. And while I can see where they'r'e coming from with systemd and weyland, having spent the better part of the last couple years up to my ears in shitty X11 code, their tendency to dismiss actual legitimate concerns because "No one actually uses those features," is more than a little disturbing.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Read all the posts from AC:s regarding systemd to this article and tell me how you can come to a different conclusion. There are tons of "Poettering don't know about exit codes", "systemd eats logs" and so forth. None of them are true and all of them are crybullying.
Nary a peep about this:
Ah, where are the flame wars of yesteryear?
I guess Mozilla has moved on to new frontiers in alienating the open source community.
almost every single anti systemd post on Slashdot for the last years have been crybullying.
tmpfiles: R! /dir/.* destroys root
poettering commented on Mar 30: I am not sure I'd consider this much of a problem. Yeah, it's a UNIX pitfall, but "rm -rf /foo/.*" will work the exact same way, no?
Again:
Bug Security IT Linux /" Is Now Bricking Linux Systems (phoronix.com) 699
Running "rm -rf
Posted by timothy on Monday February 01, 2016 @08:56AM from the now-you-can-troll-harder dept.
An anonymous reader writes:
For newer systems utilizing UEFI, running rm -rf / is enough to permanently brick your system. While it's a trivial command to run on Linux systems, Windows and other operating systems are also prone to this issue when using UEFI. The problem comes down to UEFI variables being mounted with read/write permissions and when recursively deleting everything, the UEFI variables get wiped too. Systemd developers have rejected mounting the EFI variables as read-only, since there are valid use-cases for writing to them. Mounting them read-only can also break other applications, so for now there is no good solution to avoid potentially bricking your system, but kernel developers are investigating the issue.
tmpfiles: R! /dir/.* destroys root #5644
poettering commented on Mar 30: I am not sure I'd consider this much of a problem. Yeah, it's a UNIX pitfall, but "rm -rf /foo/.*" will work the exact same way, no?
I don't see you refuting Lennart's argument, actually. He is right: Unix gives you the rope to hang yourself with, and a faulty directive in a systemd unit is as bad as a typo in a shell command (or a SysV startup script).
"I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
So, you're a paying customer of the strongest commercial backer of systemd? Did you let them know about this? Did you complain about losses and asked for explanation on plans to correct the problems, in order to decide on your way forward, including whether or not to stay on their solution?
Because that is the only meaningful way of influencing their decisions. If customers are angry, then s..t like this either gets fixed or rolled back (note - you don't get to choose the option, they do; you should only care if it works or not). If not, then it's business as usual.
Just ignore the fact that it was fixed on Mar 27, 3 days before that Poettering quote. Yes he was wrong, I never said that he was infallible. That people still bring this issue up as "systemd is bad" is part of the crybullying yes, or are we now pretending that "rm" is completely fucked up because it once had the same bug (Poetterings fault was of course that he believed that rm still had that particular bug)? I don't think so.
Almost everyone who runs a production GNU/Linux system in 2017 runs systemd. If it were even 1% as bad as the systemd trolls claim, GNU/Linux on the server would be radically losing marketshare to FreeBSD and even Windows. It isn't.
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
He is right:
Try it. He's not. That has never worked that way. Unix is smart enough to cut the rope for you if you try to hang yourself with that.
root@m6700:/tmp# ls -lah .. .Hello .World /tmp/.* ..
total 8.0K
drwxrwxrwt 2 root root 4.0K Jun 18 22:12 .
drwxr-xr-x 21 root root 4.0K Jun 18 22:12
root@m6700:/tmp# touch
root@m6700:/tmp# mkdir
root@m6700:/tmp# rm -rf
rm: refusing to remove '.' or '..' directory: skipping '/tmp/.'
rm: refusing to remove '.' or '..' directory: skipping '/tmp/..'
root@m6700:/tmp# ls -lah
total 8.0K
drwxrwxrwt 2 root root 4.0K Jun 18 22:14 .
drwxr-xr-x 21 root root 4.0K Jun 18 22:12
If indeed it was just 17 lines of code that didn't work they might have a point. It's not so hard to fix 17 lines of code. In fact the reason we like 1200 lines of code is because we can fix it.
The reason we don't like those 17 lines of code is they are really 1,139,536 lines of code hiding behind 17 lines of configuration. Worse it's not just 1 million lines of simple C, but multiple processes communicating through a horrid RPC system that makes the entire thing utterly opaque.
I didn't think there could be anything that could make me pine for the days I could fix a problem just debugging 1200 written in one of the worst programming languages on the planet (shell script) - but bless his black little heart, Lennart has managed to prove to me I was wrong.
Sigh. Whining about a technicality in an example may make you feel like you're smart, to the rest of the world you're just a dick.
"I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
I just recently upgraded to Jessie
I have no problem with SystemD and use it at home and on some production systems.
However, there are a huge number of Red Hat using companies who are sticking with RH 6 because of systemd. Most of them will eventually go to RH 7 and systemd, but until 2020, RH will continue to support their pre-systemd Enterprise release.
Cheap storage VM.
SystemD was designed assuming the happy path. Kind of like what you get from a freshman CS student. When crap hits the fan, the failure modes are largely undefined. There's also the difficult to port aspect, which is a bad thing for these kinds of projects that typically lend themselves well to porting. And some repetition and inconsistencies. SystemD is the PHP init systems. I know it's not just init, but that's what it's known for. At one point there was an open bug that got closed as "working as intended". The person who submitted it got lambasted by the primary dev for thinking the logs getting corrupted by an unexpected shutdown was a bug. Of course it's a feature! Why would you ever expect your logs to be in working order when you machine crashes? Ohh.. maybe to try to figure out why it crashed.
The whole project reeks of of NIH syndrome. It was created for a good reason, and the concept is great, but the implementation is left wanting in design and has a tenancy to keep swallowing up other projects. Why does SystemD need a DHCP server built into it, an NTP client, a NAT?! Because they can, I guess.
SystemD: Why do one thing well when you can do everything half-assed?
Winner, winner, Chicken Dinner.
It's amazing how many people manage to go through life in a state of perpetual confusion.
Cheap storage VM.
I see lots of unfounded assertions. I am not impressed.
"I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
So your argument went from: "He's Right" to "You're a dick for pointing out he's not right".
Because he was NOT right. Not only was he not right he was completely wrong. I discovered that 'feature' way back when I was learning UNIX on OS X 10.0.
How does the person that wrote the next gen init glob not know that?
Subjective opinions aside, the fact that the lead dev gave someone a tongue lashing over expecting his logs to be at-least partially usable after a system crash so he could figure out why it crashed, is absurd. His recommendation was to expect no logs to be viable and just throw them out. This was after it was already in CentOS stable as the default.
I have never seen a system that corrupted all of the log data from an unexpected shutdown, only possibly the last little bit or the FS taking a crap, but that's orthogonal to the discussion. I wish I kept the link, but this was all on SystemD's official bug tracker. My opinion is warranted to think that SystemD is a "happy path" kind of design.
I have. Since we now have competing anecdotes, how about some actual arguments for a change?
Oh no, all you do is parrot talking points. Here's a cracker, Polly.
"I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
Because no one wants to have that long command names on Unix? All the new init systems like systemd, upstart and smf are event driven. With sysv as I said you only have hit and miss and people using the exit code from the sysv scripts have just been lucky that it's worked somewhat for them combined with the fact that some of the old sysv scripts contained pre flight checks that the people who ported them to systemd unit files forgot to add.
It's better. Still a quarky setup.. like asking about where to put grub when it knows damn well where. As if it even gives us a choice. Side from the installation that IMHO is overdue to be updated, it seems to be a bit better. I see no reason to switch to it from Fedora 25 with KDE, however. Probably just my preference.
Now, go play with your antiviri, malware, spybot, rootkit, updaters and reboot a few dozen times in between updates and in the mean time, I will get some work done on my debian sid system.
Debian ate the poison pill. Will anyone die tomorrow? Not likely. Will anything bad happen next year? Not likely. Long term, perhaps 50 years, it is guaranteed that Debian will be dead or will be used to abuse the people who use it... rather like MS Windows right now.
"Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
Done. Most of us have no issue with it in a production environment. Try again.
Better a parrot than an astroturfing apologetic shill that doesn't understand the difference between the filesystem corrupting log data or the logger corrupting log data.Then again, "Arguing on the internet is like running at the special olympics...". Sometimes giving up is the correct response.
All of the new users I've dealt with in the 24 years I've used Linux were more confused by the different distributions than any other single thing.
If they're confused by the idea that different people can release slightly tweaked versions of Linux, I submit that they will spend most of their lives confused in any case, and there is nothing that can be done to fix it.
About Linux? Yes. About other things? Not necessary.
What, never? Never worked that way? Are you sure?
Watch this Heartland Institute video
the fact that the lead dev gave someone a tongue lashing over expecting his logs to be at-least partially usable after a system crash
Amusing anecdote. Pity it's not true.
Watch this Heartland Institute video
The bigger problem is that messages that used to show on the console with SysV init scripts are now no longer showed on the console, and they are not logged in the journal. That makes troubleshooting a pain in the neck. Simple problems, like a /var/lib/mongodb/mongod.lock hanging around after a power problem which prevents MongoDB from restarting, can take a while to trackdown since nothing logs that error
Repost of trolling from over a year ago.
Watch this Heartland Institute video