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Tesla Says Its Model 3 Car Will Go On Sale On Friday (apnews.com)
Electric car maker Tesla says its keenly awaited Model 3 car for the masses will go on sale on Friday. From a AP report: CEO Elon Musk made the announcement Monday on Twitter. The car is to start around $35,000 and with a $7,500 federal electric car tax credit, could cost $27,500. Tesla says the five-seat car will be able to go 133 miles (215 kilometers) on a single charge and will be sporty, accelerating from zero to 60 miles per hour in under six seconds. Editor's note: the article was updated after the Associated Press, the original source, updated its report.
215 miles is roughly 346 kilometers (not 133).
UNIX was not designed to stop you from doing stupid things, because that would also stop you from doing clever ones.
The units appear to have been reversed as 215 kilometres is 133.6 miles.
-- Insert witty one-liner here. --
Nah, whoever did the conversion messed up the operation (divide/multiply). Per Tesla's site, the range is 215 miles.
It's not, but per the Tesla site, the range is 215 miles. Whoever did the conversion just messed up.
https://www.tesla.com/model3
Nope, it is 215 miles. https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/mo... It is the kilometres that is wrong, should be 346km.
Ok, so, it's range is 215 miles (according to the Tesla site, not the screwed up conversion in TFS). If you commute 30 miles each way, that's 60 miles, leaving you plenty for errands during the work day. Even if driving in traffic blows your efficiency (which should be less true of EVs, but still will have some effect) you'll not have range issues in that scenario. With it's safety, comfort, and low operating costs, it's a good commuter car if you're in the market for a nearly $30K commuter car.
Longer trips require more planning, because we're in early days. It's a lot like when gas cars were new & you had to be sure to have a way to get enough fuel. Now, you've either got to make sure there are chargers along your route, or rent a gas-burner for the trip. It's a trade off, and people have legit points to support whichever decision they make.
From the website:
Starting price in USD. Local pricing will be announced in 2017.
Production begins mid 2017.
Delivery estimate for new reservations is mid 2018 or later.
Elon's tweets say:
Model 3 passed all regulatory requirements for production two weeks ahead of schedule. Expecting to complete SN1 on Friday
Handover party for first 30 customer Model 3's on the 28th! Production grows exponentially, so Aug should be 100 cars and Sept above 1500.
Looks like we can reach 20,000 Model 3 cars per month in Dec
Tesla cars are expensive bling, but this doesn't meet the needs of most people.
Depends on where those people are.
Europe being more densely populated, its actually exactly the king of thing people need.
Which explains the success of other cars with similar characteristics have been having during the past few years.
(e.g.: Renault's Zoe, Citroen C-zero, etc.)
Lots of people travel 20 or 30 miles to and from work. However, we also have errands and other things to do.
Which all fall well within ~340km / 215 miles range of the car.
Many of us also travel on weekends and make trips a few times per year. The short range of these vehicles {....}
Which taking into account the highway speed limitations in Europe (between 120 and 130 depending on countries - with the exception of Germany having some limit-less sections), means that the car can travel without any problem for 2 hours on a single charge (you could push it closer to 3h if you don't drive like an asshole) (actual experience driving various electric cars).
Which means that this car can reach as far as you can before you need to take break. (Most place recommand taking break every 1h30 of driving. After 2h, you definitely need a 30min rest - by which time batteries could be fully charged again by a supercharger).
And please don't start about driving 8 hours straigh with only a single pee brak in the middle. That's dangerous and borderline illegal (actually is under some circumstance and in some jurisdictions).
coupled with the significant recharge time
on normal week days, the car slowly charges over night so you don't give a damn about it.
on trip, a supercharger can fill the battery in about half an hour which okay as you need to take a break as a driver, otherwise you are a risk on the road.
lack of available charging stations in some areas
Tesla has a nice network of charging station in Europe.
European models of Tesla also use a Mennekes connector like everybody else (unlike the weird shit US models use) meanning that you can charge a Tesla on the numerous charging station that are popping everywhere.
(Though not at full speed like on a super charger. Tesla lack the 2 extra pins of "combo" chargers and thus can only charge using AC at regular station. Though I've hread that Telsa is producing adapter (at least ChaDeMo) so it would be possible to charge faster with it).
But it basically means you can also charge while doing your groceries, etc.
But congratulations on making a car that people will probably buy even though it doesn't meet their needs.
don't get me started with US' obesssion with SUVs.
Elon Musk is even better at convincing people to buy overpriced junk than Steve Jobs was.
It's not over priced, it's the regular price of a car once you factor in the price of the battery.
Compare it, specially with Zoes (Renault sells them both with battery included, and with a separate battery rental - you only pay the car without the batteries).
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
Neither of them. The error appears already in TFA.
Range starts at 215 miles with the base battery, but can be more. For long-distance trips you use Superchargers which are usually very convenient.
I find the people who obsess over range to be non-Tesla owners who just don't understand that having a full "tank of gas" every morning with no effort more than makes up for the occasional road trip when you need to use Superchargers.
Reality Check.
You don't charge Tesla's except at home (or if your lucky at work) and when you are on a road trip. It takes about 30 seconds a day to plug/un-plug your car. That means you spend a lot less time charging your car on a regular basis than people without electric cars spend putting gas in them.
On a road trip you spend about 15-20 minutes (a Model S 100 might only spend 10 minutes) at each Super Charger. That gives you just enough power to get to the next Super Charger. That's roughly enough time to go to the bathroom every 3 hours give or take.
If you need a full charge, which you might need if you are leaving the super charger network and there is no destination charging available, or if there is a super charger missing, then you spend about an hour. If you plan ahead, you arrange for the hour stop to be at meal time, and then you eat while you are charging. If you do count all the stopped time on road trips, I might still spend less time charging than most people spend putting gas into their cars.
If you don't count the charging time while doing something else, such as eating or sleeping, then I spend far less time charging my Model X than I would putting gas into an equivalent ICE SUV, and I go on many road trips.
After driving my Model X for about two weeks, I realized that I will never buy another non-electric car and I will likely only ever buy Tesla's again. They are simple that much better. The only complaint I have is that when driving twisty little mountain roads, they just go right up without any issues and remove all the fun.
How fast it breaks, and how many seconds that takes, will depend on just how fast you hit something.
Remember to wear your seatbelt.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
So, someone posted a comment on the internet that you don't like. In your mind, that apparently justifies wishing they die a horrible death. You're also the person who, within the past few weeks, told someone in a comment to put a gun in his mouth and shoot himself. Your violent tendencies are frightening. I suggest that you seek professional help because you're pretty obviously a danger to the people around you. Or perhaps you should spend some time behind lock and key if you can't control your violent behavior. This world needs more civility, and your post is truly awful. It's also part of a pattern you've exhibited in many of your posts.
The only question that really matters is: What is the charge time? 215 miles is a reasonable enough range; but if you're planning a 250 mile trip, you don't want to have to make an overnight stop! If you can charge the car enough in, say, a 15-minute rest break that it can keep going for another couple of hours, then it's a viable vehicle. If not, it's not.
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The point of the Model 3 is that it isn't that expensive. It'll be in the same price range as the Bolt / Ampera, and should cost about the same as the upcoming Volvo EV. I wouldn't call it overpriced, and especially here in Europe an EV is a lot cheaper to maintain and run than a regular car.
Instead of saying that it doesn't meet the needs of most people, you could say that these vehicles almost meet the needs of many (maybe most) people. Almost but not quite. So just rent a car for the one or two longer trips you make each year. One manufacturer here includes a free rental for such longer trips. And for those buying an EV as a second vehicle this generally isn't an issue at all.
If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
The S sold like hotcakes here, partly thanks to the attractive price (due to not having the aforementioned extra tax on petrol cars). They are even used as taxicabs, as they offer a nice ride to clients while being cheap to operate. If the 3 comes in at around €35k as expected, I expect they'll sell even more. Most people here don't really need a station wagon and few people own a trailer; so most just rent a van if they have to move stuff.
If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
My model X with all it's windows on a hot day in North Carolina sitting on the side of the road used about 3miles of charger per hour to keep the cabin comfortable. I don't even worry about the AC anymore.
Meanwhile, neither the imperial or metric systems were invented in the 19th century.
Longer trips require more planning, because we're in early days. It's a lot like when gas cars were new & you had to be sure to have a way to get enough fuel.
No, it's not like that at all. Batteries just don't hold the same amount of energy as gasoline, neither by volume nor by weight.
A car back in the early days could carry extra gasoline. An electric car can't carry extra batteries for the same range extension, because the extra volume and weight would be prohibitive.
The order of magnitude difference between how much energy is stored in gasoline versus how much is stored even in the best batteries is too big to be caught up by incremental improvements - a radically different new battery type would have to be discovered.
Workarounds have been investigated.
Ultra-rapid charging stations have their own problems in that you get far less usable energy per kWh drawn from the grid, and much higher cost due to local consumables (batteries). It's not nearly as green.
You also shorter range after filling unless you then switch to slow charging at the end, in which case it takes a long time again, and you need more charging spots.
Ad-hoc battery replacement is another one, where you switch out packs of batteries. One problem with that is that you lose your original new battery for someone's old battery, which wasn't attractive for users in the test pilot. And it requires standardization between brands, or it will be too expensive to have wide coverage.
For now, hybrids seem to be a better solution. You can take advantage of the immensely higher energy density of gasoline and rapid fueling, while still having the benefits of electric motors.
However, turning on the AC in traffic kills the battery...
Actually, it doesn't. I've been driving a Nissan LEAF (a car with a much smaller battery) for five years now, and I don't worry about the range impact of the AC at all. The heater is a different story, but AC has virtually no impact on range.
I think part of the reason that AC seems to impact gasoline efficiency more than EV range is the fact that gasoline engines generate a lot of heat. There's a semi-insulated firewall between the engine compartment and the passenger compartment, but I think a lot of the heat still makes its way through, so an ICEV's AC has to work a lot harder. Electric motors produce very little heat anyway, and none when not moving. Batteries also produce a little heat when discharging, but, again, that is negligible except when at high output... which only happens briefly, during acceleration, and even then isn't that much.
All of this means that EV AC only has to cool the passenger compartment from heat that flows in from outside and is generated by incoming sunlight. It doesn't have to fight heat coming from a 200-degree block of metal sitting two feet in front of the passenger cabin, or the heat from the tailpipe flowing under the passenger cabin.
Anyway, that's only my theory, I don't know if it's remotely related to the truth. What I do know is that running the AC has negligible effect on range. I have a few times opted to turn the cabin heater off in the winter to make sure that I had enough battery to get to my destination (which isn't as bad as it sounds, since the car has heated seats and steering wheel; and those have no impact on range). I have never found it to be of any use to turn off the AC. If I'm getting close to the end of my battery in the summer, the only thing I can do is get off the freeway so I can drive slower.
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
Sadly, it's a very limited compensation in the face of the differences. Depending on the quality of the lithium-ion battery, Gasoline stores between 53x and 129x as much energy per kg, and between 13x and 38x as much energy per liter. Even quadrupling the efficiency doesn't make that big dent in those numbers - you're still talking 13x-32x the energy per pound, and 3x-10x the energy per liter.
The weight of the engine does make a considerable difference, but is typically well under a third of the total weight of an empty car. Add driver, cargo, and possibly passengers and that fraction falls even further. Reducing it does help mileage, but we're still a long way from being in the same league.
That said - batteries are reaching the point where they're good enough for most people most of the time, which is impressive enough. If you can easily recharge overnight in your garage, it doesn't matter so much that you can't get away with only refilling your gas tank once or twice a month.
For longer trips - well I've long been a fan of "backup generator" series hybrids - minimal added complexity, and you can have a finely-tuned gas turbine fairly efficiently converting gasoline to electricity to extend your range when needed.
--- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
Not only that, TFA has loads of other transposition like 133 mile maximum range for Tesla's Model 3, 200 miles for a Model X, and 200 km for the Chevy Bolt.
Thirty four characters live here.
I'm a Model S owner (P100D -- range about 325 miles or so)
I recently took my Tesla on two family trips. one to Pinhurst, NC (about 600 miles) and one to Deep Creek Lake (about 200 miles).
the car performed spectacularly on both. we easily fit everything we needed for a week's stay in a cabin for a family of four in the trunk and the frunk (the back is cavernous for a sedan).
on the Pinehurst trip, I stopped halfway at a supercharger station in the parking lot of a nice family restaurant / pub. the car was ready to continue well before we finished eating lunch.
At Deep Creek Lake, I simply plugged in to a standard 120 volt exterior outlet on the cabin, but there were also destination chargers around the area if I had needed to charge more quickly.
particularly on the coasts, there are are tons options for charging when necessary. However, I feel like focusing on charging is missing the point. Since buying the car in September, those two long trips are the only times i've ever had to charge the car publicly. it charges overnight in my garage. i've got a full 325+ mile range every morning. it's like owning a car that never needs a fillup. (plus the acceleration has to be experienced to be believed :) )
i could live a little longer in this prison
And most people were better off with a horse than a Model T.
haha OWN a Tesla. i didn't win it.
i could live a little longer in this prison
all cars, including this one, can brake far faster than they can accelerate.
somehow i'm missing your point.
wait, you're not actually unaware that the car has traditional brakes and pads in addition to the regen feature, are you?
i could live a little longer in this prison
it charges faster than you think. i recently took mine on a 600 mile trip and it was no problem at all. one stop for a quick lunch, and that was it. the car was done charging long before we were finished eating.
i could live a little longer in this prison
the range is a red herring that people who don't drive in real life use I think. They're unaware of the concept of a rental, they don't really grasp how far 200 miles is.
The real people that this is unsuitable for are street parkers, many renters, and those that live in a condo or apartment. I'm hoping to convert my back yard into a drive way so I can get an electric car, but in my area, only about 1/3 of the population has that option, and we're in a car needed city.
Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
haha what are you even talking about? the 325 mile range on my car is more than enough for commuting plus any errands i ever have to run in a single day.
that leaves long trips, which are actually super easy. the few times i've had to charge, i stopped at restaurants that had supercharging stations in the parking lot, and the car was ready before i finished eating each time.
this car is more than meeting my needs. i haven't regretted it for a second. it's by far the best car i've ever owned.
my previous car was a Challenger SRT8. the acceleration of the Model S absolutely annihilates that car (and it handles better too).
i could live a little longer in this prison
I'd say 20k/month is pretty optimistic. That is an increase of 300% in a year, and of the 80k cars produced last year they had to recall 50k.
AC doesn't really make much difference in my gas powered vehicle. Mileage from the summer when it runs nonstop, wide open cold to cool days when I ride with no AC is absolutely nothing. 19 MPG year round unless I take a road trip and mileage goes up to 24 on the Interstate. I had an AC problem where the compressor died and it was a few days before I could get it into the shop. That week I ran with the windows down and no AC. My mileage dropped to 17.5. Aerodynamics apparently makes more difference.
My Model S does 0-60 in 2.3 seconds. that's in "ludicrous+" mode. I can either put it in plain old "Ludicrous" mode, which is 0-60 in about 2.5 seconds, or i can put it in "sport" mode, which is 0-60 in about 4 seconds. that's the lowest setting.
of course, you also have the option to not fucking floor it from a standstill if you don't want to. do you normally drive with your foot stapled to the floor? if you're concerned about efficiency, simply don't drive like a maniac.
the motor pushes energy to the wheels in proportion to your throttle input. i feel like someone with a driver's license should probably understand that concept.
i could live a little longer in this prison
I owned a 4X4 pickup for years that I probably put 800 miles a year on. I finally realized that for what it cost me in insurance and taxes I could rent something for the few times I needed it. When I priced a new set of tires for it at 1200 dollars I finally sold it.
So if you have to make frequent 180 mile trips (branch offices, family, other), don't count on it reliably being able to do so with juice to spare.
Personally, another reason not to visit the family is a tick in the plus column for me.
Wanna buy a shirt?
https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
You do realize you're an ignorant shit-face, who deserves to be raped by a pit bull, right? Oh wait, no, you're too stupid.
Well, that escalated quickly.
Wanna buy a shirt?
https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
Moderators on this site are in a gang. They don't mod down their own kind. Their job is to mod down people who post against the group-think values.
You realise mod points are basically assigned at random to people with good karma and if you don't spend them they go after a week or something? This isn't reddit.
Wanna buy a shirt?
https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
Only if you choose furlongs per fortnight in the speedometer's configuration menu.
No sig today...
Is it? Regenerative braking mitigates the impact. Efficiency is reduced at higher speeds (wind resistance), a slower constant pace is ideal for power consumption.
I've been only driving electric cars for about 3.5 years. My LEAF is still my daily commute vehicle; it's got 27K miles in 3.5 years. Our Model S is our new family car for long trips. We've done several trips of 300-450 miles one way. We've put 6K miles on it in 4 months.
My Model 3 reservation is probably going to replace my LEAF. The LEAF is a great electric vehicle, but really suffers all the typical poor design/implementation of most auto manufacturers. The info system is pathetic; the remote access/status is unreliable (and can kill the 12V battery). Everything looks exactly like it did when it was first designed in 2010 (as it still does on new ones you buy today), and by 2010 standards it wasn't all that "modern".
Contrast this to Tesla where my car has had 3 OTA updates, each of which added new features. Everything is outstanding (except perhaps the amount of visibility in the rear view mirror).
Driving the range-challenged LEAF drastically changed my driving style. It's made me more aware of speed and acceleration (and put me in a hypermiling mindset). I don't need that in the Tesla, but it has helped.
Driving the Tesla long distance really shows where they are the game changer. None of my trips could have been done with a Chevy Bolt -- there just isn't the available, reliable charging infrastructure. Sites like plugshare.com (which is an absolute necessity in the LEAF) can help, but if you can't depend upon the charging stations being available or just working, then you can't really go on a trip. Taking any other car but a Tesla on a long road trip (400mii+) in the US is like traveling by covered wagon!
(It helps that the Supercharging network for my Model S is free; it won't be for those Model 3 owners).
That's too high by factor of 10. Article quotes 23 miles per 100,000 driven. So 11.5 miles shorter after 50,000 miles, which is more reasonable.
TFA has apparently been fixed:
The question is whether Slashdot will leave misinformation up on their front page or not.
Dear Diary...today I was pompous and my sister was crazy.
Partially true, partially not.
1) Battery age: This is correct. Battery range declines with time. Tesla warranties their packs for 75% of the initial range, for 8 years and unlimited km.
2) Temperate climate: This is mostly correct - but it can go either way. Tesla's range calculator shows, for example, that the P75D (EPA range 259mi) at 65mph does:
0F, heat on: 211mi
32F, heat on: 233mi
50F, heat on: 253mi
50F, heat off: 267mi
70F, AC off: 275mi
90F, AC off: 279mi
90F, AC on: 260mi
110F, AC on: 246mi
3) Traffic: It depends entirely on the type of traffic. While gasoline vehicles perform best at the lowest speed they can manage in their highest gear, EV optimum speeds are far lower, often in the ballpark of 20 mph, where their ranges can exceed their EPA ranges several times over. For example, the above P75D (EPA range 259mi) has the following speed-range depenency (70, no heat/AC)
Sub-45 mph: Not included in the calculator
45mph: 404mi
50mph: 367mi
55mph: 334mi
60mph: 303mi
65mph: 275mi
70mph: 250mi
Over 70mph: Not included in the calculator
Steady-moving traffic that simply slows down travel speeds actually increases EV range, potentially significantly. However, braking in traffic that strongly fluctuates between speeds wastes energy - Li-ion EV regenerative braking is generally 50-75% efficient round-trip (hybrids, with their small NiMH packs, generally are much less efficient round-trip, around 30%). In general, low speeds advantages win out over braking disadvantages, which is why EVs generally do much better in city driving than highway driving - the opposite of gasoline vehicles.
A key detail most people miss over when talking about traffic: does anyone realize how long of a drive you're talking about when you describe using up an entire EV's range in stop-and-go traffic? Say you're talking about an average speed of 15mph for an EV that would have 200 miles range in that conditions. You're talking about spending over thirteen hours in traffic in those conditions. When was the last time you spent over thirteen hours continuously in traffic?
Dear Diary...today I was pompous and my sister was crazy.
When was the last time you spent over thirteen hours continuously in traffic?
I live in Atlanta you insensitive clod!
Yes it's an anecdote! Were you expecting original research in a Slashdot comment?
Again, pointing out the energy difference between just the gasoline vs. just the battery is an inherently biased comparison, because a gasoline vehicle isn't just a tank of gas and an EV not just a battery. You have to compare the whole system - including the heavy ICE in a gas car. Yes, currently gas cars win in this comparison, but by nothing remotely like the "53x and 129x" you cite.
Furthermore, one has to look at the consequences of running out. Yes, gas stations are currently significantly more common than EV charging stations. But you know what's orders of magnitude more common than gas stations? Power sockets. No, a regular power socket isn't going to give you a fast charge - you get several minutes of charging . But with a small amount of patience you'll get enough to get to the next proper charging station.
EVs are also have a much more graceful "running out" failure mode. By slowing down if they realize they're in trouble, an EV driver can vastly increase their range - potentially up to 3x, if you drop all the way down to ~25mph. This isn't the case with gasoline cars; they can slow down to the bottom RPM range of their top gear, but that only offers a limited improvement; slowing down further means switching gears, and the higher RPM / lower torque conditions decrease engine efficiency more than you gain by reduced aerodynamic drag.
But most importantly, it's all a moot point, as there's already a broad supercharging network, with stations regularly spaced among almost every major interstate in the US, and similarly in other parts of the developed world. Long-distance travel is the only place you need superchargers, and you use interstates for that.
Dear Diary...today I was pompous and my sister was crazy.
Yeah, all cars produced between Feb & Oct had a faulty part. That's over half the year so more than half the cars.
It's irrelevant going forward. It doesn't mean that percentage of cars will be recalled. Nor does it have anything to do with how many cars they will make.
An increase of 300% over what? How many X & S they are making? Well, those production lines are not going away. This is all additive. And it's a car designed to be far simpler and easier to mass produce, and for this year at least will have no factory fitted options. Just one model. So that seems perfectly doable.
BOOM!!!! Another lost Mars probe.
Americans often use metric when it's more convenient (I almost always use milli-liters instead of ounces, because it's printed on all our bottles). We mostly use imperial measurements for the same reason people still use Windows......because the momentum of the past makes it a pain to change.
And don't pretend that the rest of the world is on metric. In UK they still use stones to weigh themselves, in Central America some countries still use gallons, and in Japan they measure area with tatami mats (and I've seen with my own eyes construction workers use other traditional units). Australia uses hands for some purposes, and Chinese speaking countries use traditional measurements.
Why? Why does everyone still use traditional measurements even when the 'official' measurements are metric? Inertia. There's no real compelling reason to change.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
There are lots of use cases where electric car makes sense. Right now the electric cars are expensive and total cost of ownership is still higher than gas burners. Let us see when, the prices are equal, how many people value your use case scenarios.
Most people buy gas cars because they are cheaper and familiar. When electric car cost becomes equal more will switch. If, or when, electric car becomes cheaper than gas car, we will know how much people really value quick gas refills and very long driving ranges.
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
Why don't you just stop commenting about something you know nothing about.
City driving in an EV gives MUCH better range than highway driving. Somehow the EPA picks up on that as well, with a higher MPGe for city than highway.
That's been my experience over 50,000 miles of EV driving in 3 different EVs.
AC is very efficient as well. Ahttps://tech.slashdot.org/story/17/07/03/1011218/tesla-says-its-model-3-car-will-go-on-sale-on-friday#n hour of driving with the AC on reduces my range by about 4 miles. An insignificant portion of a vehicle's range with > 200 miles of range.
They're so powerful, and single gear, so they're mostly limited only by the rubber.
Still, they can only accelerate nearly as fast as they brake at low speeds, when air resistance is low enough. Air resistance works for you when braking, but against you when accelerating.