Tesla Says Its Model 3 Car Will Go On Sale On Friday (apnews.com)

Electric car maker Tesla says its keenly awaited Model 3 car for the masses will go on sale on Friday. From a AP report: CEO Elon Musk made the announcement Monday on Twitter. The car is to start around $35,000 and with a $7,500 federal electric car tax credit, could cost $27,500. Tesla says the five-seat car will be able to go 133 miles (215 kilometers) on a single charge and will be sporty, accelerating from zero to 60 miles per hour in under six seconds. Editor's note: the article was updated after the Associated Press, the original source, updated its report.

Comments

Wrong conversion to International System of Units

[d3vi1]

215 miles is roughly 346 kilometers (not 133).

Most people need something better

[Anonymous Coward]

Tesla cars are expensive bling, but this doesn't meet the needs of most people. Lots of people travel 20 or 30 miles to and from work. However, we also have errands and other things to do. Many of us also travel on weekends and make trips a few times per year. The short range of these vehicles coupled with the significant recharge time and lack of available charging stations in some areas makes this completely unsuitable for a lot of people. But congratulations on making a car that people will probably buy even though it doesn't meet their needs. Elon Musk is even better at convincing people to buy overpriced junk than Steve Jobs was.

Re: Most people need something better

[Anonymous Coward]

$30k for a car isn't "expensive bling" and 200 mile range is sufficient for most. So other than your main premises your argument is a great one.

Re: Most people need something better

[Anonymous Coward]

You do realize that the units were reversed, right? The actual range is 133 miles, not 215 miles. That's not impressive at all.

Re: Most people need something better

[tonyyeb]

Nope, it is 215 miles. https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/mo... It is the kilometres that is wrong, should be 346km.

Re:Most people need something better

[Lord_Byron]

Ok, so, it's range is 215 miles (according to the Tesla site, not the screwed up conversion in TFS). If you commute 30 miles each way, that's 60 miles, leaving you plenty for errands during the work day. Even if driving in traffic blows your efficiency (which should be less true of EVs, but still will have some effect) you'll not have range issues in that scenario. With it's safety, comfort, and low operating costs, it's a good commuter car if you're in the market for a nearly $30K commuter car.

Longer trips require more planning, because we're in early days. It's a lot like when gas cars were new & you had to be sure to have a way to get enough fuel. Now, you've either got to make sure there are chargers along your route, or rent a gas-burner for the trip. It's a trade off, and people have legit points to support whichever decision they make.

Re: Most people need something better

[Anonymous Coward]

Most families have multiple cars. If you're not part of a family, then rent when going on a long trip.

Re: Most people need something better

[tsa]

I suggest that next time you comment on an article you read it first, and if necessary try to find more information about the subject, so you don't come over as an ignorant fool.

Re: Most people need something better

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude, dial it back. We need more civility in this world.

Re:Most people need something better

[Dog-Cow]

I hope someone runs you over 50 or 60 times in their Model 3.

Re: Most people need something better

[Dog-Cow]

You do realize you're an ignorant shit-face, who deserves to be raped by a pit bull, right? Oh wait, no, you're too stupid.

Re:Most people need something better

[thegarbz]

However, we also have errands and other things to do.

If your "errand" can't be done with the remaining 215miles of charge then you're no longer running an errand, you're doing logistics.

Many of us also travel on weekends and make trips a few times per year

Indeed. I own a small hybrid city car. Yet I go to a sand island that is only accessible by a large SUV several times a year. What's your point? I don't understand.

The short range of these vehicles coupled with the significant recharge time and lack of available charging stations in some areas makes this completely unsuitable for a lot of people.

Your definition of "a lot" in this case probably covers about 20% of the population. Oh calamity.

Elon Musk is even better at convincing people to buy overpriced junk than Steve Jobs was.

Yeah isn't it a tragedy that people buy what is widely regarded as one of the best cars on the market.

Re: Most people need something better

[Anonymous Coward]

According to the Tesla site, it's 215 miles. Try harder troll.

Re:Most people need something better

[Sique]

EVs actually marvel in traffic, because differently than internal combustion engines, an electric motor doesn't have an "optimum range".

Re: Most people need something better

[kaybee]

Range starts at 215 miles with the base battery, but can be more. For long-distance trips you use Superchargers which are usually very convenient.

I find the people who obsess over range to be non-Tesla owners who just don't understand that having a full "tank of gas" every morning with no effort more than makes up for the occasional road trip when you need to use Superchargers.

Re:Most people need something better

[Anonymous Coward]

Reality Check.

You don't charge Tesla's except at home (or if your lucky at work) and when you are on a road trip. It takes about 30 seconds a day to plug/un-plug your car. That means you spend a lot less time charging your car on a regular basis than people without electric cars spend putting gas in them.

On a road trip you spend about 15-20 minutes (a Model S 100 might only spend 10 minutes) at each Super Charger. That gives you just enough power to get to the next Super Charger. That's roughly enough time to go to the bathroom every 3 hours give or take.

If you need a full charge, which you might need if you are leaving the super charger network and there is no destination charging available, or if there is a super charger missing, then you spend about an hour. If you plan ahead, you arrange for the hour stop to be at meal time, and then you eat while you are charging. If you do count all the stopped time on road trips, I might still spend less time charging than most people spend putting gas into their cars.

If you don't count the charging time while doing something else, such as eating or sleeping, then I spend far less time charging my Model X than I would putting gas into an equivalent ICE SUV, and I go on many road trips.

After driving my Model X for about two weeks, I realized that I will never buy another non-electric car and I will likely only ever buy Tesla's again. They are simple that much better. The only complaint I have is that when driving twisty little mountain roads, they just go right up without any issues and remove all the fun.

Re: Most people need something better

[Anonymous Coward]

It doesnt matter. I have the same as a Tesla car I ride the electric express bus in slicicone valley on highway 101 and its great with wifi included so I can check my affiliate amazon link and my revenue stream when Im on the bus same as tesla car autodrive pilot. Im also in talks with Elon Musk to put amazon affiliuate links in tesla car so even better revenue stream.

These shoes are also great to drive tesla car, you can get black shoe for the office and white shoe for tesla car:
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-cremier
--
Get shoes to drive tesla car here they are perfect shoe: http://amzn.to/2tBJzRN

Re: Most people need something better

[Anonymous Coward]

So, someone posted a comment on the internet that you don't like. In your mind, that apparently justifies wishing they die a horrible death. You're also the person who, within the past few weeks, told someone in a comment to put a gun in his mouth and shoot himself. Your violent tendencies are frightening. I suggest that you seek professional help because you're pretty obviously a danger to the people around you. Or perhaps you should spend some time behind lock and key if you can't control your violent behavior. This world needs more civility, and your post is truly awful. It's also part of a pattern you've exhibited in many of your posts.

Re: Most people need something better

[Anonymous Coward]

However, turning on the AC in traffic kills the battery...

Re: Most people need something better

[Anonymous Coward]

How does this user have good enough karma to not post at -1 by default? How have these violent comments not been modded down? What is wrong with the moderators to not mod down nasty comments like Dog-Cow posts on a regular basis? It's shameful that moderators are okay with comments like this. The user you're replying to made an error based on several comments near the beginning of the article that we're posted in good faith. You, on the other hand, are a disturbed individual to respond with a truly awful violent comment. You deserve to be posting at -1 and there's something wrong with the moderators here if you're not getting modded down for posts like this. As for you, I suggest you seek psychiatric treatment for your violent outbursts.

Re:Most people need something better

[JaredOfEuropa]

The point of the Model 3 is that it isn't that expensive. It'll be in the same price range as the Bolt / Ampera, and should cost about the same as the upcoming Volvo EV. I wouldn't call it overpriced, and especially here in Europe an EV is a lot cheaper to maintain and run than a regular car.

Instead of saying that it doesn't meet the needs of most people, you could say that these vehicles almost meet the needs of many (maybe most) people. Almost but not quite. So just rent a car for the one or two longer trips you make each year. One manufacturer here includes a free rental for such longer trips. And for those buying an EV as a second vehicle this generally isn't an issue at all.

Re: Most people need something better

[Anonymous Coward]

He didn't mention anything going against their personal beliefs, like gun-control. So it's OK.

Re: Most people need something better

[Anonymous Coward]

My model X with all it's windows on a hot day in North Carolina sitting on the side of the road used about 3miles of charger per hour to keep the cabin comfortable. I don't even worry about the AC anymore.

Re: Most people need something better

[Sique]

Yes, because EVs use much less energy than internal combustion engines. Tesla's Model 3 will be using about 11 kWh per hour, compared to 60-80 kWh per hour for a normal sedan. Thus an additional user of energy like the AC has a relatively larger impact to total energy usage.

Re: Most people need something better

[arth1]

Keep in mind that the 215 mile range is under good conditions - new batteries, temperate climate, good roads with little traffic. A windy road during real winter will see nowhere near this range, nor will a car with some mileage on the batteries.
So if you have to make frequent 180 mile trips (branch offices, family, other), don't count on it reliably being able to do so with juice to spare.

Re: Most people need something better

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually having little traffic would decrease the range because the assumption would be higher driving speeds. I have doubled my cars range when in heavy traffic. Batteries don't degrade significantly over years. Roads conditions have little impact for range except when road conditions would require you to drive slower (increasing range).
The vast majority of people live within 30 miles of work.

Re:Most people need something better

[arth1]

Longer trips require more planning, because we're in early days. It's a lot like when gas cars were new & you had to be sure to have a way to get enough fuel.

No, it's not like that at all. Batteries just don't hold the same amount of energy as gasoline, neither by volume nor by weight.

A car back in the early days could carry extra gasoline. An electric car can't carry extra batteries for the same range extension, because the extra volume and weight would be prohibitive.

The order of magnitude difference between how much energy is stored in gasoline versus how much is stored even in the best batteries is too big to be caught up by incremental improvements - a radically different new battery type would have to be discovered.

Workarounds have been investigated.
Ultra-rapid charging stations have their own problems in that you get far less usable energy per kWh drawn from the grid, and much higher cost due to local consumables (batteries). It's not nearly as green.
You also shorter range after filling unless you then switch to slow charging at the end, in which case it takes a long time again, and you need more charging spots.
Ad-hoc battery replacement is another one, where you switch out packs of batteries. One problem with that is that you lose your original new battery for someone's old battery, which wasn't attractive for users in the test pilot. And it requires standardization between brands, or it will be too expensive to have wide coverage.

For now, hybrids seem to be a better solution. You can take advantage of the immensely higher energy density of gasoline and rapid fueling, while still having the benefits of electric motors.

Re:Most people need something better

[dehachel12]

> Batteries just don't hold the same amount of energy as gasoline, neither by volume nor by weight.
OTOH, petrol engines are 10 times larger than electric engines, AND petrol cars only convert about 20-30% of the energy in the petrol into kinetic energy; so those 2 factors compensate a lot of that drawback.

Re: Most people need something better

[Anonymous Coward]

Moderators on this site are in a gang. They don't mod down their own kind. Their job is to mod down people who post against the group-think values.

Re:Most people need something better

[Notabadguy]

I drive a 2015 Nissan Leaf - the Leaf and similar EVs offered by other non-Tesla manufacturers at the time all offered ~100 mile range cars for ~$30,000.

I haven't looked at the EV market since buying mine, but Tesla is offering double the range for less money. That'll spur on the market.

Re:Most people need something better

[Anonymous Coward]

An apostrophe is not needed when mentioning more than one Tesla. The apostrophe denotes possession.

"Teslas are great cars."
"The Tesla's headlights are bright." (Referring to the headlights of a particular Tesla)
"Those Teslas' headlights are bright." (Referring to the headlights of multiple vehicles.)

Re: Most people need something better

[swillden]

However, turning on the AC in traffic kills the battery...

Actually, it doesn't. I've been driving a Nissan LEAF (a car with a much smaller battery) for five years now, and I don't worry about the range impact of the AC at all. The heater is a different story, but AC has virtually no impact on range.

I think part of the reason that AC seems to impact gasoline efficiency more than EV range is the fact that gasoline engines generate a lot of heat. There's a semi-insulated firewall between the engine compartment and the passenger compartment, but I think a lot of the heat still makes its way through, so an ICEV's AC has to work a lot harder. Electric motors produce very little heat anyway, and none when not moving. Batteries also produce a little heat when discharging, but, again, that is negligible except when at high output... which only happens briefly, during acceleration, and even then isn't that much.

All of this means that EV AC only has to cool the passenger compartment from heat that flows in from outside and is generated by incoming sunlight. It doesn't have to fight heat coming from a 200-degree block of metal sitting two feet in front of the passenger cabin, or the heat from the tailpipe flowing under the passenger cabin.

Anyway, that's only my theory, I don't know if it's remotely related to the truth. What I do know is that running the AC has negligible effect on range. I have a few times opted to turn the cabin heater off in the winter to make sure that I had enough battery to get to my destination (which isn't as bad as it sounds, since the car has heated seats and steering wheel; and those have no impact on range). I have never found it to be of any use to turn off the AC. If I'm getting close to the end of my battery in the summer, the only thing I can do is get off the freeway so I can drive slower.

Re: Most people need something better

[chispito]

Or better yet, convince your EV averse friend to trade for the weekend.

Re:Most people need something better

[swillden]

For now, hybrids seem to be a better solution. You can take advantage of the immensely higher energy density of gasoline and rapid fueling, while still having the benefits of electric motors.

But the huge disadvantage of having to carry the weight and complexity of two different engines.

I think Tesla's solution is the better one: batteries that are big enough for a segment of a long trip, plus superchargers that can replenish the batteries fast enough that the car's need for recharging roughly coincides with the people's needs for bio breaks.

My area is particularly bad for long EV trips, because the freeway speeds are quite high -- speed limits of 80 mph, so the traffic mostly flows at 85-90 mph -- and high speed significantly reduces range (in your other posts you said traffic would do that, which is completely wrong. Heavy traffic means slower speeds which means greater range). Still, I think the Model 3 would be okay for me. Looking at the long trips I typically make, there are superchargers located at all of the places we typically stop anyway, and they are about 120 miles apart. The only difference is that with a Model 3, those stops would be mandatory, not optional -- we sometimes decide to power through without them, and we couldn't do that.

But unless you're very different from most people, long road trips aren't where you do most of your driving anyway. I own a Nissan LEAF, which has about half the range of a Model 3, and we put 18K miles per year on it, significantly more than the 12K we put on the truck (our long-distance vehicle). Commuting and running errands are what really rack up the miles, and a BEV works great for that application.

It's particularly nice that we never have to stop for gas; just take five seconds to plug the car in at home, and it's always full when we leave. And electricity is much cheaper than gasoline. In addition, electric cars are really nice to drive. Quiet, and with great acceleration.

I haven't ordered a Model 3, but I expect that within a couple of years I'll replace my LEAF with a BEV with much greater range, and it will become the car for road trips as well as around town. The truck will be used only when we need to haul or tow something.

Re:Most people need something better

[Immerman]

Sadly, it's a very limited compensation in the face of the differences. Depending on the quality of the lithium-ion battery, Gasoline stores between 53x and 129x as much energy per kg, and between 13x and 38x as much energy per liter. Even quadrupling the efficiency doesn't make that big dent in those numbers - you're still talking 13x-32x the energy per pound, and 3x-10x the energy per liter.

The weight of the engine does make a considerable difference, but is typically well under a third of the total weight of an empty car. Add driver, cargo, and possibly passengers and that fraction falls even further. Reducing it does help mileage, but we're still a long way from being in the same league.

That said - batteries are reaching the point where they're good enough for most people most of the time, which is impressive enough. If you can easily recharge overnight in your garage, it doesn't matter so much that you can't get away with only refilling your gas tank once or twice a month.

For longer trips - well I've long been a fan of "backup generator" series hybrids - minimal added complexity, and you can have a finely-tuned gas turbine fairly efficiently converting gasoline to electricity to extend your range when needed.

Re: Most people need something better

[Dog-Cow]

I'm just better than you, that's all.

Also, /. is where I go when I feel like telling people off.

Re: Most people need something better

[Dog-Cow]

I just come to /. to mouth off. Glad to be noticed, I guess.

Re:Most people need something better

[pezpunk]

i won a Tesla. in heavy traffic, my remaining range typically goes up, not down. the lower speeds (plus regen brakes) more than make up for the inefficiency of repeatedly accelerating and decelerating. it's a little counter-intuitive, but in my experience i get the same or more range per charge commuting than i do on long trips.

also keep in mind most owners will charge at home over night. charging is a complete non-issue for me.

on top of that, there are chargers everywhere for those rare long trips that are more than 300 miles. (my Model S has a range of about 320 miles)

Re: Most people need something better

[Anonymous Coward]

Just not there yet. Maybe at 300mi range.

I currently live in a rural area equidistant between two major metropolitan areas (45mi and 50mi) and close to a third (90mi). I commute to the shortest one. However, I work for an entity that can and will make me go to the furthest one, on limited notice, and at my own expense, perhaps as a transfer. Many rural folk are in similar situations. As such, we buy vehicles that can accommodate the maximum expected commute we might need to accomplish. At a round trip of 180mi per day for my maximum commute, with no access to charging anywhere I would be required to park, the 215mi range of the Tesla 3 isn't enough to rely on. I wouldn't even buy a gas car that couldn't get me more than TWICE my expected commute, because emergencies happen. You get stuck in six hours of traffic when it is 15F out, etc... while the average person commutes less, rural America makes up a disproportionate amount of automotive purchases, and there is a reason (besides ego) we stick with trucks and larger cars, and yes even hybrids...RANGE.

Tesla needed this vehicle to have 300ish miles standard to get past the fears of your average rural commuter. Hopefully, they'll push it up higher.

Re: Most people need something better

[AvitarX]

Yes, it's not a good car for people that make frequent long trips, or those that drive a lot for work, but don't have access to a company car for it.

It's also not a good car for people that have to street park, which I suspect is a far larger percentage of the population than those that the range is a limiting factor. Additionally, those that live in condos or apartments where they can't get a reserved spot with a charger are similarly limited.

It is a great choice for a suburban car, especially in a two car household.

Re:Most people need something better

[pezpunk]

I'm a Model S owner (P100D -- range about 325 miles or so)

I recently took my Tesla on two family trips. one to Pinhurst, NC (about 600 miles) and one to Deep Creek Lake (about 200 miles).

the car performed spectacularly on both. we easily fit everything we needed for a week's stay in a cabin for a family of four in the trunk and the frunk (the back is cavernous for a sedan).

on the Pinehurst trip, I stopped halfway at a supercharger station in the parking lot of a nice family restaurant / pub. the car was ready to continue well before we finished eating lunch.

At Deep Creek Lake, I simply plugged in to a standard 120 volt exterior outlet on the cabin, but there were also destination chargers around the area if I had needed to charge more quickly.

particularly on the coasts, there are are tons options for charging when necessary. However, I feel like focusing on charging is missing the point. Since buying the car in September, those two long trips are the only times i've ever had to charge the car publicly. it charges overnight in my garage. i've got a full 325+ mile range every morning. it's like owning a car that never needs a fillup. (plus the acceleration has to be experienced to be believed :) )

Re:Most people need something better

[0100010001010011]

And most people were better off with a horse than a Model T.

Re:Most people need something better

[pezpunk]

haha OWN a Tesla. i didn't win it.

Re: Most people need something better

[stabiesoft]

I'm sure that helps, but I think you underestimate the heat load of all those windows. I have seen numerous news stories about babies left in cars, and basically within 15 minutes it is an oven. Here in texas 160+ has been measured in a car sitting. Some reporters even do stories about making pies and other stuff on the dash. Even on cloudy days, it gets toasty.

Re:Most people need something better

[Anonymous Coward]

The nice thing about EVs in traffic is that at idle, they take zero energy, while an IC engine has to run at idle and burn fuel.

Re: Most people need something better

[pezpunk]

as a Model S owner, i can attest that this simply isn't true. i haven't noticed any significant loss of range from A/C use. Just drove it about 250 miles yesterday and it was over 90 degrees out, and i had the A/C blasting the whole time. i even beat my projected range on the trip by a few percentage points.

Re:Most people need something better

[modmans2ndcoming]

I wish the volt would get a 150 mile range battery.

Re:Most people need something better

[AvitarX]

the range is a red herring that people who don't drive in real life use I think. They're unaware of the concept of a rental, they don't really grasp how far 200 miles is.

The real people that this is unsuitable for are street parkers, many renters, and those that live in a condo or apartment. I'm hoping to convert my back yard into a drive way so I can get an electric car, but in my area, only about 1/3 of the population has that option, and we're in a car needed city.

Re: Most people need something better

[drinkypoo]

'm sure that helps, but I think you underestimate the heat load of all those windows.

If I were building an EV I'd spend the extra for solar glass and a solar panel which runs the blower at lower speed while the vehicle is parked in the sun. My Audi A8 has all that and the vehicle never gets stupidly hot inside.

Re:Most people need something better

[Anonymous Coward]

my forester has a 15.9 gal tank and averages 24 to 32 mpg. so a range per tank of 381.6 to 508.8 miles. 40 mile round trip 5 days a work week = 200 miles plus no convenient place to recharge. $27000 (after government tax credit) puchase cost. not a suitable "commuter car" by a long shot.

Re:Most people need something better

[pezpunk]

haha what are you even talking about? the 325 mile range on my car is more than enough for commuting plus any errands i ever have to run in a single day.

that leaves long trips, which are actually super easy. the few times i've had to charge, i stopped at restaurants that had supercharging stations in the parking lot, and the car was ready before i finished eating each time.

this car is more than meeting my needs. i haven't regretted it for a second. it's by far the best car i've ever owned.

my previous car was a Challenger SRT8. the acceleration of the Model S absolutely annihilates that car (and it handles better too).

Re:Most people need something better

[AvitarX]

Do people not live in apartments or condos in Europe?

In small cities even many of the houses don't have reserved parking here.

I think that's the largest barrier to EV ownership.

Re: Most people need something better

[pezpunk]

there's no evidence that the batteries wear down significantly over time. in fact, according to current data, most batteries still have over 90% capacity after 200,000 miles, and there is at least one Model S with over 500,000 miles on the odometer and it still has over 80% capacity on its original battery. keep in mind this is one of the first Model S vehicles, and their battery tech has improved by quite a lot since then, as well.

https://electrek.co/2016/11/01...

Re: Most people need something better

[amiga3D]

AC doesn't really make much difference in my gas powered vehicle. Mileage from the summer when it runs nonstop, wide open cold to cool days when I ride with no AC is absolutely nothing. 19 MPG year round unless I take a road trip and mileage goes up to 24 on the Interstate. I had an AC problem where the compressor died and it was a few days before I could get it into the shop. That week I ran with the windows down and no AC. My mileage dropped to 17.5. Aerodynamics apparently makes more difference.

Re:Most people need something better

[amiga3D]

My next vehicle will be an EV I'm pretty sure. If they're at 200 miles now then in 4 years when I look to buy one it'll probably be 300 which will meet my need. I'm starting on solar panels now for my house so by the time I get the EV my fuel costs will be zero. Can't beat that. I like saving the environment when it saves me money.

Re:Most people need something better

[Anonymous Coward]

215 mile range would cover more than 90% of my vehicle use; I'm in a country without a significant charging network, so I'd have to rent/borrow an ICE vehicle every other week or so. That would be a pain, but we're a multi-vehicle household (more often the case than not outside the cities), and already have a relatively efficient minivan for long trips.

They are still a little expensive, and I'm not sure how the lifetime of the battery pack stands up, but if I see a used one in a few years I'd be very tempted.

Re: Most people need something better

[stealth_finger]

So if you have to make frequent 180 mile trips (branch offices, family, other), don't count on it reliably being able to do so with juice to spare.

Personally, another reason not to visit the family is a tick in the plus column for me.

Re: Most people need something better

[stealth_finger]

Actually having little traffic would decrease the range because the assumption would be higher driving speeds. I have doubled my cars range when in heavy traffic.

Then you're doing it wrong. Heavy traffic is a lot of braking and accelerating which is heavy on the juice. Light traffic is constant smooth speed and no more than 2k revs.

Re: Most people need something better

[arth1]

Roads conditions have little impact for range

Rolling resistance is a noticeable factor.

Re: Most people need something better

[stealth_finger]

You do realize you're an ignorant shit-face, who deserves to be raped by a pit bull, right? Oh wait, no, you're too stupid.

Well, that escalated quickly.

Re: Most people need something better

[stealth_finger]

How does this user have good enough karma to not post at -1 by default? How have these violent comments not been modded down? What is wrong with the moderators to not mod down nasty comments like Dog-Cow posts on a regular basis? It's shameful that moderators are okay with comments like this. The user you're replying to made an error based on several comments near the beginning of the article that we're posted in good faith. You, on the other hand, are a disturbed individual to respond with a truly awful violent comment. You deserve to be posting at -1 and there's something wrong with the moderators here if you're not getting modded down for posts like this. As for you, I suggest you seek psychiatric treatment for your violent outbursts.

Well then log in, get some mod points and stalk him.

Re: Most people need something better

[stealth_finger]

Moderators on this site are in a gang. They don't mod down their own kind. Their job is to mod down people who post against the group-think values.

You realise mod points are basically assigned at random to people with good karma and if you don't spend them they go after a week or something? This isn't reddit.

Re:Most people need something better

[arth1]

But the huge disadvantage of having to carry the weight and complexity of two different engines.

But the petroleum engine doesn't have to be a full size engine - it can be as small as a lawn mower engine and still do its job of charging. That's not a huge addition to a car weighing a couple of tonnes.

Re: Most people need something better

[stealth_finger]

However, turning on the AC in traffic kills the battery...

windows

Re: Most people need something better

[Anonymous Coward]

All of this means that EV AC only has to cool the passenger compartment from heat that flows in from outside and is generated by incoming sunlight. ... What I do know is that running the AC has negligible effect on range.

My EV (hybrid) uses the air conditioner to cool the battery. It's on all the time whether the vents are set to cool or not.

Re: Most people need something better

[Guspaz]

Is it? Regenerative braking mitigates the impact. Efficiency is reduced at higher speeds (wind resistance), a slower constant pace is ideal for power consumption.

Re: Most people need something better

[Anonymous Coward]

He doesn't express republican or libertarian points of view. I did and my account got essentially banned: default -1 karma and two posts a day. I get more from being an AC.

Re: Most people need something better

[arth1]

Those two examples are outliers, as is the example of a model S that had only 85% of the battery left after 25,000 miles.

The average seems to be 2.3 miles reduced range for every 1,000 miles driven.
So if you've done 50,000 miles in a Tesla S, your range is on average 115 miles shorter. That's fairly significant if you occasionally go on longer trips.

Re: Most people need something better

[Anonymous Coward]

Electric cars don't suffer much from stop&go traffic. Combustion cars suffer because they idle, suck at efficiency when accelerating and throw away all their energy on braking. Electric cars suffer most from constant high speed, because air resistance is speed cubed. Combustion engines are the least wasteful at constant speed.

Re:Most people need something better

[Anonymous Coward]

It takes 30 sexs plus hours where you are twiddling your thumbs because your piece of shit car can't go anywhere.

Re: Most people need something better

[webmistressrachel]

You are being a little naive if you think that there are no "super moderators" with unlimited mod points here on Slashdot, and I wouldn't be surprised if they have the ability to permanently give something a fixed score (Perma -1 or Perma- Funny+5)

Re: Most people need something better

[mbkennel]

That's too high by factor of 10. Article quotes 23 miles per 100,000 driven. So 11.5 miles shorter after 50,000 miles, which is more reasonable.

Re:Most people need something better

[fluffernutter]

So you lost freedom about where you stop and this isn't a problem for you? Wow.

Re: Most people need something better

[Anonymous Coward]

Serious question: how's the X work when it's cold? Say 20 deg F at night, still sitting still, how much battery does that take ? Does the X use resistance heat or the compressor as a heat pump?

(I'm a Tesla fan, hopeless Musk fan boy (I can now understand you Jobs fan boys). I hope to get a 3 inna few years).

Re: Most people need something better

[WolfWithoutAClause]

It mitigates it, but it doesn't cancel it. The regenerative braking only recovers at most around 80%, usually a lot less. If you repeatedly have to accelerate to speed, and then stop, over and over, you lose loads of energy.

Re:Most people need something better

[Anonymous Coward]

"don't hold the same amount of energy"

Yes, but they're also FAR more efficient so that same amount of energy can take you quite a bit further. Even with this though batteries are still not quite there as far as a complete replacement for IC, but they're more than good enough for most peoples uses. I am a bit confused why more EVs don't have an optional small generator range booster. You can literally fit a 400w turbine generator into a the space of a larger thermos, put a few of these in the trunk of a vehicle with a small propane/natural gas/gas/diesel/other tank and the whole range issue vanishes.

Re:Most people need something better

[Anonymous Coward]

You are an idiot.

It takes 30 seconds to plug it in, then I walk into my home and have dinner, watch tv, play with the kids, other things I would be doing. If I'm sitting in my car twiddling my thumbs it's because I'm trying to have some quiet time to myself.

You have to stay with a gasoline car while your are fueling it. You don't stay with an electric car while you are charging it. You do other things. Once you truly understand that, you start to realize how much better electric cars are than gasoline ones. It's just a different mind set.

Re: Most people need something better

[Anonymous Coward]

Not in weight, but definitely in complexity. Not as bad as a gas engine with a transmission, but still a dirty, demanding and finicky piece of machinery.

Re:Most people need something better

[Anonymous Coward]

What's your per mile fuel cost? Mine's about 3.3 cents per mile for June.

Re: Most people need something better

[Rei]

Keep in mind that the 215 mile range is under good conditions - new batteries, temperate climate, good roads with little traffic. A windy road during real winter will see nowhere near this range, nor will a car with some mileage on the batteries.

Partially true, partially not.

1) Battery age: This is correct. Battery range declines with time. Tesla warranties their packs for 75% of the initial range, for 8 years and unlimited km.

2) Temperate climate: This is mostly correct - but it can go either way. Tesla's range calculator shows, for example, that the P75D (EPA range 259mi) at 65mph does:
0F, heat on: 211mi
32F, heat on: 233mi
50F, heat on: 253mi
50F, heat off: 267mi
70F, AC off: 275mi
90F, AC off: 279mi
90F, AC on: 260mi
110F, AC on: 246mi

3) Traffic: It depends entirely on the type of traffic. While gasoline vehicles perform best at the lowest speed they can manage in their highest gear, EV optimum speeds are far lower, often in the ballpark of 20 mph, where their ranges can exceed their EPA ranges several times over. For example, the above P75D (EPA range 259mi) has the following speed-range depenency (70, no heat/AC)

Sub-45 mph: Not included in the calculator
45mph: 404mi
50mph: 367mi
55mph: 334mi
60mph: 303mi
65mph: 275mi
70mph: 250mi
Over 70mph: Not included in the calculator

Steady-moving traffic that simply slows down travel speeds actually increases EV range, potentially significantly. However, braking in traffic that strongly fluctuates between speeds wastes energy - Li-ion EV regenerative braking is generally 50-75% efficient round-trip (hybrids, with their small NiMH packs, generally are much less efficient round-trip, around 30%). In general, low speeds advantages win out over braking disadvantages, which is why EVs generally do much better in city driving than highway driving - the opposite of gasoline vehicles.

A key detail most people miss over when talking about traffic: does anyone realize how long of a drive you're talking about when you describe using up an entire EV's range in stop-and-go traffic? Say you're talking about an average speed of 15mph for an EV that would have 200 miles range in that conditions. You're talking about spending over thirteen hours in traffic in those conditions. When was the last time you spent over thirteen hours continuously in traffic?

Re: Most people need something better

[Anonymous Coward]

You wouldn't feel the need to do that if you had ever accomplished anything or earned the respect of even one person in your life.

Re: Most people need something better

[Rei]

Rolling resistance is a noticeable factor.

Noticeable, but not the dominant factor at highway speeds. And if you're driving slowly, where rolling resistance dominates, your overall range is higher than the EPA range, potentially several times higher if you're driving very slowly. So an increase in rolling resistance isn't tragic.

Re: Most people need something better

[mandark1967]

The average annual income for Americans is ~$56000 - $58000

>50% of one's yearly income "is" expensive. At least, it is in my humble opinion

Re: Most people need something better

[Rei]

But in an EV you don't need to leave the engine idling to run the AC.

Re: Most people need something better

[MangoCats]

80% is, however, soooo much better than conversion of petro-chemical energy to heat by conventional brakes.

Re: Most people need something better

[Anonymous Coward]

In Brazil, the most crap petrol car costs about 1.5 year of average salary.

Re: Most people need something better

[shilly]

Anyone who has owned an EV car, as I have, can assure you that you're talking absolute horse-cock. Stop-and-go driving is slow and painful, but increases the range dramatically compared to driving at say 55mph continuously.

Re:Most people need something better

[shilly]

So your working assumptions is that most people who buy this car wouldn't have a drive or garage on which to install a charger, is it? And what facts back that up, exactly? This is a car aimed at fairly wealthy family types living in suburbia. They will have drives. They will park their cars on their drives overnight and in the morning -- as if by magic! -- they'll have a fully charged car again.

Re:Most people need something better

[Anonymous Coward]

So you lost freedom about where you stop and this isn't a problem for you? Wow.

More like he was lucky that there were already chargers along the routes that he already travels.

Re: Most people need something better

[Anonymous Coward]

In the nordic countries, we often have access to engine heater outlets where we park for the night. With minor or no modification they can be converted to EV charging posts.

Re: Most people need something better

[danbert8]

When was the last time you spent over thirteen hours continuously in traffic?

I live in Atlanta you insensitive clod!

Re:Most people need something better

[Rei]

Again, pointing out the energy difference between just the gasoline vs. just the battery is an inherently biased comparison, because a gasoline vehicle isn't just a tank of gas and an EV not just a battery. You have to compare the whole system - including the heavy ICE in a gas car. Yes, currently gas cars win in this comparison, but by nothing remotely like the "53x and 129x" you cite.

Furthermore, one has to look at the consequences of running out. Yes, gas stations are currently significantly more common than EV charging stations. But you know what's orders of magnitude more common than gas stations? Power sockets. No, a regular power socket isn't going to give you a fast charge - you get several minutes of charging . But with a small amount of patience you'll get enough to get to the next proper charging station.

EVs are also have a much more graceful "running out" failure mode. By slowing down if they realize they're in trouble, an EV driver can vastly increase their range - potentially up to 3x, if you drop all the way down to ~25mph. This isn't the case with gasoline cars; they can slow down to the bottom RPM range of their top gear, but that only offers a limited improvement; slowing down further means switching gears, and the higher RPM / lower torque conditions decrease engine efficiency more than you gain by reduced aerodynamic drag.

But most importantly, it's all a moot point, as there's already a broad supercharging network, with stations regularly spaced among almost every major interstate in the US, and similarly in other parts of the developed world. Long-distance travel is the only place you need superchargers, and you use interstates for that.

Re:Most people need something better

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually he gained the freedom of only having to make only 1 stop where he can both charge and eat, instead of 1 for gas and another one for food.

Re:Most people need something better

[Anonymous Coward]

You are an idiot. You cannot use your piece of shit electric while you are waiting for it to recharge. I hope your child dies because you couldn't get them to the hospital due to your piece of shit electric car not being charged yet.

My real car only takes a minute to charge so I can use it whenever I want to go where ever I want.

Re: Most people need something better

[Dragonslicer]

Mythbusters tested it several years ago, and they found somewhere in the 35-45 MPH range is where the drag from open windows becomes a bigger factor than running the AC.

Re:Most people need something better

[fluffernutter]

What are you talking about? Plenty of gas stations have restaurants. We generally don't want to eat at that restaurant however so we spend five minutes filling up and drive to the restaurant we want to eat at. Or so a rest stop and have a picnic, or just eat on the road.

Re:Most people need something better

[pr0fessor]

except cars with start stop features....

Re: Most people need something better

[swillden]

All of this means that EV AC only has to cool the passenger compartment from heat that flows in from outside and is generated by incoming sunlight. ... What I do know is that running the AC has negligible effect on range.

My EV (hybrid) uses the air conditioner to cool the battery. It's on all the time whether the vents are set to cool or not.

My EV (actual EV, not hybrid), doesn't.

Re: Most people need something better

[swillden]

If you're getting 19 mpg then your vehicle is not a good test case, because it's already very inefficient in some other ways. Don't take that as a criticism; my non-EV vehicle (a Ford F-350 w/6.8L diesel engine) only gets 17 mpg. But if adding or removing a ton of weight from the bed makes no difference at all in fuel economy, there's no way turning on the AC will make any.

I had an AC problem where the compressor died and it was a few days before I could get it into the shop. That week I ran with the windows down and no AC. My mileage dropped to 17.5. Aerodynamics apparently makes more difference.

How fast do you drive? If you're routinely driving 60+ mph the aerodynamic drag from the windows being down is huge. It's not that the AC is a light load, it's that at high speed those windows are a massive source of drag.

Re: Most people need something better

[Anonymous Coward]

Cool thing about Tesla's is that they have a setting that will keep the temperature below 105F so long as the battery has more than 20% charge. Will likely save some lives.

Re: Most people need something better

[Anonymous Coward]

I find the people who obsess over range to be non-Tesla owners who just don't understand that having a full "tank of gas" every morning with no effort more than makes up for the occasional road trip when you need to use Superchargers.
 
Another user threw down the gauntlet to defy anyone to find roadtrips that wouldn't work with the Model 3 and I pulled out two real world scenarios just off the top of my head in about 30 seconds.
 
A Tesla would be fine if you're in a densely populated supercharger area but people like you still refuse to see that there are many of us that don't. Stop dismissing our concerns based on your limited experience. Some of us here most certainly can do basic math and some of us here do drive in areas where 200+ mile roadtrips do happen.
 
What would be nice to see is some of you understand that there are scenarios where the Tesla just isn't up to the test yet. It would be nice for you to understand why 130 miles added to a day trip is a hassle, even if it's doable, for lack of charging stations.
 
Get off your high horse and see that not everyone is you and that there are situations where 215 miles is a hurdle that just isn't worthwhile. I'll take the "3 minute weekly gas station trip" over the "An hour and a half extra road time, per day" on a long distance road trip. I'd spend just as much time charging my Tesla in two days on such a trip as what I do filling my car with gas in seven months.

Re:Most people need something better

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

A well designed gas burning generator on tow would be a good range extending solution. We can set up rentals of this tow packs near highway entrance ramps. Rent one for long distance, and return it on the way back.

Re: Most people need something better

[WolfWithoutAClause]

Sure, but it still chews up range pretty badly. Don't forget that the energy storage capacity of the battery is so very much less than that of a fuel tank. Also things like air conditioning/heating use a lot of range at slow speeds/stop-start; they're a bigger fraction of the energy and there's almost no waste heat from the engine available. The bottom line is that stop/start really seriously affects range.

Re: Most people need something better

[karnal]

Best... statement... ever.

Re: Most people need something better

[Anonymous Coward]

You are being a little naive if you think that there are no "super moderators" with unlimited mod points here on Slashdot, and I wouldn't be surprised if they have the ability to permanently give something a fixed score (Perma -1 or Perma- Funny+5)

Yeah, creimer's drivel has to be getting upmoded somehow no matter how inane it is at the time.

Re: Most people need something better

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

I dont have to understand you. I am not forcing you to buy an electric car. Buy a gas burner and be happy. Why should I care about what happens to you or what bothers you?

There are lots of use cases where electric car makes sense. Right now the electric cars are expensive and total cost of ownership is still higher than gas burners. Let us see when, the prices are equal, how many people value your use case scenarios.

Most people buy gas cars because they are cheaper and familiar. When electric car cost becomes equal more will switch. If, or when, electric car becomes cheaper than gas car, we will know how much people really value quick gas refills and very long driving ranges.

Re:Most people need something better

[Cro Magnon]

I often go over 100 miles on the weekend. The max, excluding vacations, is 180. Barely within 215, but I live where there's weather and hills. It probably is almost good enough for me, but almost isn't good enough.

Re:Most people need something better

[pezpunk]

there are tons of options of where to stop. "wow" right back at ya.

Re:Most people need something better

[pezpunk]

it's not luck. they are virtually everywhere, at least on the coasts and civilized areas.

Re:Most people need something better

[pezpunk]

you're really sounding pretty ignorant, writing off the first hand experience of someone and inserting your own made up scenarios.

Re:Most people need something better

[Anonymous Coward]

see, pezpunk is an tesla writer... a mean, tesla pr drone

Re:Most people need something better

[rfengr]

You should try running the engine while gassing up, see if you get yelled at by the station attendant.

Re: Most people need something better

[naughtynaughty]

Why don't you just stop commenting about something you know nothing about.

City driving in an EV gives MUCH better range than highway driving. Somehow the EPA picks up on that as well, with a higher MPGe for city than highway.

That's been my experience over 50,000 miles of EV driving in 3 different EVs.

AC is very efficient as well. Ahttps://tech.slashdot.org/story/17/07/03/1011218/tesla-says-its-model-3-car-will-go-on-sale-on-friday#n hour of driving with the AC on reduces my range by about 4 miles. An insignificant portion of a vehicle's range with > 200 miles of range.

Re: Most people need something better

[naughtynaughty]

Imagine how terrible it looks if you put it in terms of monthly income.

Cars last more than a year.

Re:Most people need something better

[thegarbz]

Not a red herring, but rather an unfounded phobia of something they don't understand. Kind of like: My car can go ANYWHERE, so I need my next car to go ANYWHERE! Where is anywhere? Oh to the corner shop and to work, but it needs to go ANYWHERE!

Re:Most people need something better

[naughtynaughty]

I disagree

Terrible idea

Avis/Hertz/etc already rent gas cars for those RARE times when you need to travel more than 200 miles and there are no fast charge stations on the way. They rent those for a very low price.

Towing a generator is like hauling a horse trailer behind your sedan because you might want to go off road sometime.

Cars don't have to meet 100% of the use cases. For the 1% they don't meet, go rent something suitable.

Re: Most people need something better

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, telling me what I do and do not understand but you have no obligation to get empathetic then to turn around and act like we have the problem ("obsess over range!!!1111!!!!")? Get lost. Seriously. Reasonable dialog means nothing to chumps like you.

And I see you can't defeat my logic. Just count up another EV fanboy who talks crap then walks away with his tail between his legs when he gets owned. Be a keyboard warrior somewhere else, you're plainly the loser here.

Have a nice day.

Re: Most people need something better

[Anonymous Coward]

I knew I'd get modded down. We don't dare cross the Progressive grain too often.

Re: Most people need something better

[Anonymous Coward]

Thank you. I laughed. I'm from DC, so, not quite so bad...

Re:Most people need something better

[shilly]

Perhaps it was a problem, but just much less of a problem than the benefit of having a fully charged car each morning. Trade-offs, the heart and soul of engineering and consumer decision-making.

Re:Most people need something better

[shilly]

I agree with your assessment of the use cases that EV doesn't really work for today.

However, where condos / apartments have parking, my sense is this is a laggy infrastructure issue, which is likely to be solved in new-builds and retrofits over time. If a parking lot is mainly filled with EVs, it will be cleaner and less fumey than other parking lots, and the building owners can also make money out of providing the charging infrastructure if they wished.

Re:Most people need something better

[Anonymous Coward]

It's unfortunate that you failed to scrape together a $1000 deposit for that Model 3 you want so badly. But electric car owners aren't responsible for your failure, so kindly refrain from taking your frustrations out on them.

Re: Most people need something better

[Anonymous Coward]

You deserved to get modded down. You have never been a victim and you will never be a martyr.

Re:Most people need something better

[fluffernutter]

I'm just not comfortable making such a large purchase for something that might become an impediment if I want to use it in a way that I don't normally do. ie. I don't really care if it is charged for me ready to use 98% of the time if it is going to be absolutely terrible to use for the other 2%. An expensive vehicle for me is all-purpose, not just something that I use to drive to work. Either the prices have to come down on these to around 60% of an ICE to account for the inconvenience or they need to get more convenient.

Re:Most people need something better

[djinn6]

My next vehicle will be an EV I'm pretty sure. If they're at 200 miles now then in 4 years when I look to buy one it'll probably be 300 which will meet my need. I'm starting on solar panels now for my house so by the time I get the EV my fuel costs will be zero. Can't beat that. I like saving the environment when it saves me money.

You can also start the solar project when you actually buy the EV, since those panels will be even cheaper in 4 years.

I have a small Japanese car myself, which should last me until 2030, at which point I'm sure EV's will be everywhere. I'm also hoping self-driving will be an option by then.

Re:Most people need something better

[shilly]

In 2015, 42% of EU28 residents lived in apartments. 58% lived in houses. So it's an issue but there's plenty of room for growth before it becomes a huge issue. On the point of reserved parking, there's chargers being incorporated into lamp-posts now.

Re:Most people need something better

[fluffernutter]

Packing a cooler and eating on the road stopping only for bathroom breaks and gas fills so as to get to your destination asap is a fairly common scenario. Not sure why you would say it is made up, we do it all the time. We have no interest in giving money to some greasy restaurant along the way when we can bring some ham and some bread for sandwiches. Any reason we must stop, especially stop and spend more money, is a big inconvenience for us.

Re:Most people need something better

[Anonymous Coward]

No, it's not like that at all. Batteries just don't hold the same amount of energy as gasoline, neither by volume nor by weight.

A car back in the early days could carry extra gasoline. An electric car can't carry extra batteries for the same range extension, because the extra volume and weight would be prohibitive.

The order of magnitude difference between how much energy is stored in gasoline versus how much is stored even in the best batteries is too big to be caught up by incremental improvements - a radically different new battery type would have to be discovered.

While the energy density of the batteries certainly leaves a lot to be desired, you have assumed that they occupy the same volume as a fuel tank.

They don't. A top of the line Model S or X has a 100 kWh battery which translates to , very conservatively, about 161L (ignoring all the volume occupied by other components in the battery pack, empty space, cooling system etc)

In addition the electric car being more efficient at transmission and drag needs less energy to go the same distance (per kg weight). Considering all of these, no radical improvements to the technology (while wholly welcome!) are not essential to breaking the range barrier.

Re:Most people need something better

[shilly]

YMMV, as they say. If you want the peace of mind of knowing your car can be refuelled quickly at any filling station, and don't care for advantages such as home re-charging, destination re-charging, free re-charging (for Tesla), re-charging at shopping malls, supermarkets etc, then an EV is certainly not right for you. But the leap from "not right for me" to "not right" is a big one. Our family is very happy with our little Renault Zoe, with its 80mile range, something you would no doubt find absurdly limiting. We barely charge it once a week (at home -- we've charged it using a public charger three times in two years). We live a different life from you, no doubt.

Re: Most people need something better

[shilly]

You're very kind.

Re:Most people need something better

[fluffernutter]

I'm not saying it's not right, I'm just saying it's not ready to be mainstream, and that EV companies are going to have to do a lot more than they currently are to make them so.

Re:Most people need something better

[arth1]

What's your per mile fuel cost? Mine's about 3.3 cents per mile for June.

To be honest, I have no idea. I probably fill around 3 tanks a month, at $40 a tank, which means the fuel costs are negligible compared to all the other costs of owning a car - depreciation, insurance, taxes, service, tires, carnuba wax...

Re: Most people need something better

[arth1]

2) Temperate climate: This is mostly correct - but it can go either way. Tesla's range calculator shows, for example, that the P75D (EPA range 259mi) at 65mph does:
0F, heat on: 211mi
32F, heat on: 233mi
50F, heat on: 253mi
50F, heat off: 267mi
70F, AC off: 275mi
90F, AC off: 279mi
90F, AC on: 260mi
110F, AC on: 246mi

Why no data outside 0-110F range? The place where Tesla sells the most cars per capita is in (a) Norway, and (b) California.
Which means that many Tesla cars have to deal with -30C and 130F temperatures.

As for "90F, AC off", that seems like a far less realistic driving condition :)

Re:Most people need something better

[arth1]

Avis/Hertz/etc already rent gas cars for those RARE times when you need to travel more than 200 miles and there are no fast charge stations on the way. They rent those for a very low price.

You're assuming that all trips are planned. One of the great inventions of the 20th century was the joyride. First in Germany, but Americans fully embraced the concept in the 50s.

Granted, today's young generation doesn't seem to be as drawn to going "out there" for a day, and like planning their life. If nothing else around cell phone coverage.

Re:Most people need something better

[shilly]

I guess we disagree about mainstream readiness, then. In my view, there's a way to go, but a combination of falling prices and somewhat better range is all it will take for the case to become compelling enough for many users to switch at their next purchase. I wonder what percentage of US households have two cars and off-street parking (and don't live in super-rural areas)? Those are the group most likely to see a large percentage switching for one of their cars, in my view.

Re:Most people need something better

[arth1]

Furthermore, one has to look at the consequences of running out. Yes, gas stations are currently significantly more common than EV charging stations. But you know what's orders of magnitude more common than gas stations? Power sockets.

Hah. You must be a city dweller. Out in the countryside, the chance of someone coming by that you can siphon a gallon of gas from or who'll drive you to the nearest gas station and back so you can fill a jerry can is immensely greater than that someone happens to drive by with a half a mile extension cable...

Re: Most people need something better

[Anonymous Coward]

I used to drive a pool Honda EV back in the 90s/early00s. It was rated at 120 miles range, but on my trips (about 50-60 miles round trip, on the freeway keeping up but not speeding, with stereo on and climate control set to a comfortable temp) even using "Economy" mode (which mainly just reduced accel - switched it on after getting up to speed), I used an indicated 2/3-3/4 charge. So figure a practical range of 70-75 miles before you started looking for a charge point fairly desperately. A/C and heat did make a difference - either one would cut the apparent range by at least 10 miles - or between 5-10%. I suspect that things haven't changed much since then, except in the overall maximum numbers due to Li-Ion batteries fitting more energy into the space than the NiMH batteries of the day.

Re:Most people need something better

[fluffernutter]

Having two cars doesn't necessarily mean this will be right for a household. I currently have two cars, but I always need my newest car to be the one that can go on a long trip. My next oldest car is always driven to the point that it still works around the city but I wouldn't take it very far. So for me, it would be my next oldest car that an EV would replace functionality-wise. Financially speaking it doesn't make sense for me to buy a new EV that functions as my next oldest car, thus leaving me without the long-range driving function of my newest car. Maybe some households have permanently ruled out ever going for a long road trip or at least don't mind using a rental vehicle, and for them I'm sure an EV would be fine. But almost everyone I know goes into the wilderness to go camping or to a vacation home from time to time, and while I understand you can make it work plugging into a regular outlet, if I'm on vacation I don't necessarily want to stop going places because it's time for my vehicle to charge. I'm not sure if I would even be comfortable knowing I have a vehicle needing several hours charge even to get to the nearest hospital if i had to.

I actually recently replaced my next oldest car by a vehicle I got for $6K because that's what the person was being given for a trade in. Works fine for me around the city. It causes me to wonder what the economics will even be of buying a 10+ year old EV as a second car. By the time an EV is that old, it will be time for a new battery which costs a great deal more then $6K. Hopefully something will happen to make it cheap ($200-300) to recondition batteries of older EVs or they may just go into the junk heap.

Re:Most people need something better

[Anonymous Coward]

Our standing joke in the old days was that our fancy Honda EV left the garage with a full charge and a driving range roughly equivalent to a pool Cavalier with 1/4 tank. Or a gasoline Honda Insight (hybrid, Mark I) with about 1.25 gallons in the tank. Cavaliers sucked in many ways, including gas mileage. Even so, the old EV worked in some applications, and the Bolt and Tesla 3 seem usable as only cars for a large proportion of drivers as long as at-home charging can be used overnight and the price of entry (probably around $40-45K after tax, license, and charger) can be handled.

Note that the government "rebates" really are tax credits, so you still have to come up with the cash up front to buy (and finance) the car - then get it back when filing tax returns later. If you're smart, you'll turn that credit right around into paying down the car loan. The real bummer is that a lot of these will be leased, giving the credit to the leaseholder not the driver, and when they come off lease a few years later the credit won't be available to buyer #2 who may well have to pay more than the net was for the original purchaser.

Ummm ... solar panel spiffs work the same way. You *do* need cash up front for the whole cost.

Re:Most people need something better

[Brannon]

Whenever I feel sad I look at this old post and laugh:

https://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=8966633&cid=51864323 "gotta watch the conditionals, folks" (Score:3, Insightful)

by argStyopa ( 232550 ) Alter Relationship on Thursday April 07, 2016 @07:35PM (#51864323) Journal
"...If it sells every car that's been reserved..."

I'm going to call it here, that less than 100,000 - maybe even less than 50k - actually turn into real orders.

Re:Most people need something better

[Immerman]

I did address the weight - that heavy ICE is less than than 1/3 of the weight of a typical car even when empty, requiring *at most* 1/3 more energy to propel, and considerably less at highway speeds where aerodynamics become the dominant avenue of energy loss. Furthermore, the gas itself isn't light, and as you use it up that weight disappears, unlike a typical battery that maintains the same mass regardless of charge.

As for the ubiquity of power outlets, I believe arth1 put it in a nutshell - only within cities. And if you're within a city then a decent public transportation system makes a LOT more sense as a real solution - it's a shame they don't really exist in the US.

Still, I'm a huge fan of EVs, and am eagerly awaiting the day you can buy a serviceable second-hand EV for a price comparable to the ICE equivalent - new vehicles have always been overpriced toys for the upper classes and the gullible, it's the secondary markets that will change realities. Sadly that's probably going to take another major step forward in the affordability of replacement batteries, but I am hopeful that that will be achieved by the time large quantities of secondhand EVs start flooding the market.

Moreover, as I stated, series hybrids offer immense potential to eliminate the few remaining shortcomings of EVs while retaining almost all the advantages, and they should be relatively trivial to add as aftermarket modifications as well, the only difficulty being in adding an aftermarket gas tank in a crash-safe manner.

Heck, for that matter once the drive train has gone completely electric there's nothing tying you to gasoline as a "back up fuel". Wood-gas turbines for example can be extremely clean and efficient, not to mention carbon neutral. I see great potential for tinkers and modders in an EV future.

Re:Most people need something better

[drinkypoo]

Out in the countryside, the chance of someone coming by that you can siphon a gallon of gas from or who'll drive you to the nearest gas station and back so you can fill a jerry can is immensely greater than that someone happens to drive by with a half a mile extension cable...

The EVs can be designed such that the power plug works in both ways. That they haven't already been is only because there are so few of them out there, although it does seem like it would be desirable for electric fleet vehicles.

Re:Most people need something better

[Anonymous Coward]

Great. You can charge your EV every night using your solar panels. Good job.

Re: Most people need something better

[Anonymous Coward]

Good point. But still ... a typical trip for me that I *think* a Bolt or Tesla 3 could handle if starting "full" still doesn't leave me feeling wonderful:

* 65 mi. each way, plus about 15 miles running around at the destination. Nearly all freeway. So round trip 145-150 miles.
* Outbound: mid-day cruising speed 70-75 mph, with two segments of about 3 miles each where congestion brings it down to stop & go for about 1 mile and slow/go for 2 or so. Total time slightly under an hour depending on how long those congestion points last. With no congestion, around 45 minutes.
* At Destination: all suburbia, meaning stretches of 25-40 mph cruising, stop signs or signals every 1/2 mile or so, snappy but not full acceleration off most signals up to speed limit (40-45) on arterials to avoid being rear-ended by SUVs. Stop at every signal (none are synchronized).
* Return: a few short bursts up to 60-70mph; but most of the trip (at least 50 miles) stop & go with bursts to 35-40, long stretches below 20. Typical driving time 2.5-3 hours.
* Summer weather: ambient temp 85-90F outbound; 95-105F on return. Winter ambient 35-50F.

In principle, the 200+ mile range of both the Bolt and the Tesla 3 should handle that trip fine. But - the outbound trip is an EV-killer, running at speed almost continuously with little potential for regen. And the return is mostly stop & go, in hot weather in summertime (a/c and high battery temps). Based on my past experience, I'd expect that kind of driving to yield at least 15-20% less range than the rating - so maybe 165-170 mi. Distance and driving conditions like that are very common for commutes in California. And the adjusted range is barely more than the round trip (about 20 miles to spare).

Yes, a Tesla S would make it without any concerns. But a Tesla S is around $100K. The Bolt and Tesla 3 are around $30K after credits. Big difference in terms of affordability and financing potential for Ordinary Mortals. Overall, either would handle my normal driving (shorter trips than this one) fine, but this one would seem to be about the outside limit with some range anxiety. So we'd need to keep the Prius (paid off soon) for longer trips like beach or mountain runs.

Re: Most people need something better

[Anonymous Coward]

I tested my average 30 mpg sedan in a variety of conditions and found that the windows started to make a difference above 40 mph, but the AC had no measurable effect on fuel economy at any speed.

Interestingly, I was getting over 45 mpg when I made a daily commute on a stretch of highway with a 75 mph speed limit (going 80-85 mph).

Re:Most people need something better

[Anonymous Coward]

Real cars have no problem refueling while the engine runs. Unlike piece of shit electrics where it takes to fucking long to refuel.

Re:Most people need something better

[shilly]

Yes, I can see you wouldn't want one for your circumstances. Other families will take a different approach, of course.

Incidentally, here in the UK, you can buy a 3 year old used Renault Zoe for as little as £5k. That would work v well as a town runabout -- assuming the purchaser's daily driving was 50miles or less (fairly common for a town runabout, I'm sure).

Re: Most people need something better

[Waccoon]

90F, AC off: 279mi
90F, AC on: 260mi

Just to throw in my useless comment of the day, I'm really impressed the air conditioning unit has that little impact on range.

Re: Most people need something better

[Rei]

The difference gets more pronounced at higher temperatures, as not only is your rate of heat flow into the vehicle increased, but AC COP drops as the temperature difference increases. So while at 90F it's a 260/279mi (93%) difference, at 110F it's a 246/289mi (85%) difference. Note that battery range increases with increasing temperature - although this would slightly amplify the reduced range with AC, as a longer driving distance equals more time with the AC on. Indeed, the slower the speed, the more significant AC becomes. 70mph at 90F is a 238/253mi (94%) difference, while at 45mph at 90F it's a 357/410mi (87%) difference.

You see the same thing with heating, albeit to a lesser extent. At 65mph at 50F it's 253/267mi (95%); at 32F it's 233/261mi (89%); and at 0F it's 211/249mi (85%). The relatively linear decline suggests to me that they went with purely resistive heating rather than a resistive heater + heat pump approach; resistive heating's COP of ~1 doesn't change with temperature.

The worst case effects of climate control, from this, is 45mph / 0F; this yields a difference of 277/368mi (75%). One could imagine even worse from heavy traffic at slower than 45mph in 0F weather. That said, 277mi at 45mph is over six hours; halve the speed to try to amplify the cost of running the heater and you double that travel time.

The short of it: climate control does have an effect, but it's not huge - and in "moderate conditions" at highway speeds, it's hardly noticeable.

Re:Most people need something better

[Rei]

happens to drive by with a half a mile extension cable...

Wait, so your concept is that the vehicle just suddenly and without warning runs out of electricity and brakes immediately to a stop?

Here's how running out of battery works in a Tesla vehicle. After the warnings, after you hit 0 on the range estimate, you still have a reserve of 10-20 miles. The vehicle goes into "depleted mode", where it limits your maximum power usage. At the end of this, you can still roll to a stop. In short, there is nothing that should stop you from going to the nearest whatever-building on the side of the road and plugging in for a while. Or the next one, or the next one, or the next one; you have 10-20 miles after hitting "0". Even most rest areas have power sockets. And gas stations, for that matter ;)

Re:Most people need something better

[Rei]

Oh, and then there's this. Try that in an ICE car ;)

Re:Most people need something better

[Rei]

1) You mentioned them, but still focused on the energy density difference between fuels and batteries. I responded to point out the pointlessness of such comparisons, because "gasoline" and "batteries" aren't complete systems.

2) Gasoline most definitely is light. Maybe 50-100kg in a typical car, versus 1000-1500kg vehicle weight. Again, comparing the energy density of the gasoline, which makes up a small fraction of the vehicle's mass, to that of batteries, is a pointless (and misleading) endeavour.

3) "only within cities" - most definitely not "only within cities". Virtually every last farmhouse, rest area, roadside store, and - yes, even gas stations - has power outlets.

I also strongly disagree with the idea that series hybrids are the way to go. Because you're putting in an ICE (heavy, high maintenance) in addition to a whole EV, when you hardly ever plan to actually use that ICE. And you put the EV pack into a more stressful situation which means that, in order to maintain it to a lifespan you can warranty, you have to use some combination of lower depth of discharge and/or lower energy density batteries. Not as much as you have to do for hybrids, but more than you have to do for EVs. The longer the pure electric range, the slower you discharge the pack, the more cells you distribute regenerative braking across, and so forth.

There is one series "option" that I liked, but is increasingly becoming a moot point as EV ranges increase and supercharger networks expand - that is, the AC Propulsion "Long Ranger" series hybrid trailer. Hook it up to your pure EV when you need it, leave it behind when you don't. No need to own one for every EV, or at all even; since they'd be needed so rarely, it'd be perfect as a rental or shared-usage item. And the clever way they designed the Long Ranger had it autosteer, so backing up was as easy as backing up without a trailer. But that said, it's becoming a moot point these days.

Re:Most people need something better

[arth1]

Here's how running out of battery works in a Tesla vehicle. After the warnings, after you hit 0 on the range estimate, you still have a reserve of 10-20 miles.

Even more than that for gasoline powered cars. That doesn't stop people from running out.

At the end of this, you can still roll to a stop. In short, there is nothing that should stop you from going to the nearest whatever-building on the side of the road and plugging in for a while. Or the next one, or the next one, or the next one; you have 10-20 miles after hitting "0". Even most rest areas have power sockets. And gas stations, for that matter ;)

You betray that you're a naive city dweller whose sole experience with driving out of the city is large highways linking cities. "Rest areas?" *chuckle*

You have absolutely no idea what rural America is like, do you?

I live 14 miles from the nearest gas station (and stores). Some of my "neighbors" live farther away. Houses are often miles apart. With long driveways to reach each house; you can't just stop roadside, but have to actually drive to each house before you even know there's a house there.
The gas station owners likely would not let anyone hook up to their electricity for hours. They want people to own gasoline cars and pay for their gas, and don't want any sparks and fires. They'd call a tow truck for you, though.
I wouldn't let you hook up either, not knowing how much electricity you'd use and whether the system can handle it. For private housing in rural America, the grid power is often of a nature that you have to turn off the AC to run the microwave, or you'll blow a fuse. The only outlet more than 10 amp is the stove, and no one is going to pull their stove out to let you charge a bumper car.
Your best bet would be find someone who could call 911 or a tow truck for you (cause your cell phone likely won't work - geographical coverage in the rural US is still more off than on).

Rest stop... Yeah, I still chuckle about that one...

Re:Most people need something better

[pezpunk]

yep i registered 15 years ago as part of my grand plan to shill for Tesla.

Re:Most people need something better

[Rei]

You betray that you're a naive city dweller whose sole experience with driving out of the city is large highways linking cities. "Rest areas?" *chuckle* You have absolutely no idea what rural America is like, do you?

You mean, as someone who spent ten years living in Iowa, and before that Indiana? And now lives in one of the least densely populated countries on the planet (Iceland)?

Yeah, I think I have a wee bit of understanding of living in low population density areas, thank you very much.

The gas station owners likely would not let anyone hook up to their electricity for hours

I've not known a single EV owner to have ever been declined on a request to plug in, even not in an emergency. The fact that you can afford to pay them 10 times what the electricity costs and still have it be peanuts to you works as a nice incentive - one that's almost never needed.

and don't want any sparks and fires.

Are you high? So gas stations paid to install power sockets that they're terrified to use? So there's no electrical devices in use at gas stations? What sort of Amish gas stations are you stopping at?

I wouldn't let you hook up either

You'd be a first.

not knowing how much electricity you'd use and whether the system can handle it.

The amount of electricity you can use is limited by your socket. A standard 120V 15A socket means (roughly) 1,8kW max, meaning roughly 20 cents per hour max.

As for "whether the system can handle it", you tell me how many amps you want me to draw, and that's how many I'll draw.

For private housing in rural America, the grid power is often of a nature that you have to turn off the AC to run the microwave, or you'll blow a fuse

Again, you tell me how many amps, and that's how many I'll use. And if you can't run a hair dryer's worth of power, something is seriously wrong with your wiring.

The only outlet more than 10 amp is the stove, and no one is going to pull their stove out to let you charge a bumper car.

Nobody's talking about that. At 300 Wh/mi for normal highway driving or 150Wh/mi for a ridiculously slow crawl, 1800W means 1 mile range per 10 or five minutes of charging, respectively (or if you'd rather, 6 to 12 miles per hour). So if you missed your charging station by less than a dozen miles, that's an hour or so wait (if you missed it by dozens of miles, what the heck, man? It's very hard to miss one at all unless you're being an idiot, akin to running yourself out of gas)

Re: Most people need something better

[Anonymous Coward]

Strange comment. Progressives like you love to place people into victim classes and worship martyrs.

Re:Most people need something better

[fluffernutter]

We have a large family, so we tend to buy vehicles that are larger.

Re:Most people need something better

[Anonymous Coward]

1) You mentioned them, but still focused on the energy density difference between fuels and batteries. I responded to point out the pointlessness of such comparisons, because "gasoline" and "batteries" aren't complete systems.

Dude, give it up. You make a lot of great posts/points. This isn't one of them.

So the focus isn't what you care for (and that is the crux of your complaint). That doesn't make them wrong and doesn't warrent a regurgitation of your perspective.

Context made it very clear this was about energy density. Which do I care about? Depends on my focus, not yours.

Re:Most people need something better

[Immerman]

Where I live there are indeed houses to be seen all over the place along the main highways - unfortunately while they're a few blocks away as the crow flies, you probably have to drive 20+ miles to get to the next highway exit, so their presence is essentially useless for charging purposes if you were foolish enough to run to empty, despite being easily close enough to go beg a gallon or two of gas.

If you're driving the back roads instead, then yes, they're far more convenient - but most people don't drive the back roads unless they live on them. And if you're the kind to explore... well I've been plenty of places where you may not see another vehicle for days, much less have any houses nearby.

But that's neither here nor there. EV vehicles *are* wonderful, and if you're reasonably conscientious you can almost certainly avoid running afoul of their limitations without too much trouble, unless you're a big fan of long roadtrips, where they are still a bit lacking.

I too quite like the "charging trailer" idea, except for the dangers in crashes. I think you're overestimating the required weight of a series hybrid engine though - you don't actually need anything remotely close to an automotive engine, which is designed to provide very high peak torques needed for decent acceleration, climbing hills, etc.

Consider - from what I can find Teslas seem to be hovering at around 300Wh/m in normal usage, or ~22.5kw at 75mph - about 30hp. That's just a decent motorcycle engine, far smaller than a typical automotive engine. And even that is designed to provide good torque over a wide power band - optimize it to run as efficiently as possible at a single speed and torque, probably transitioning to some sort of turbine in the process, and you can bring the size and weight much further down. I've heard numbers as high as 10hp/lb for Tesla turbines, which I don't know if I believe, but hitting 1hp/lb for a combined engine/generator doesn't seem implausible given what is already out there. And 30lb, or even 100lb, seems a small price to pay for the ability to dramatically extend your range.

Re: Most people need something better

[amiga3D]

My run to work was 15 miles one way. About 3 miles at 55, 5 at 65 and 7 at 70 or so. The car is a 2001 Mercury Grand Marquis with dual pipes on a 4.6 V8. 4500 pounds of metal, glass and leather. It loves the Interstate. I ran it to Atlanta and back a few years ago at 90MPH and got over 22MPG. It's so damn smooth and stable, the best ride of any car I've ever owned including the BMW sedan I owned in Germany. It's not very efficient but I know I'm going to miss it when it's gone.

Re:Most people need something better

[amiga3D]

The panels are the least expensive part of the project. Controllers and other electronics are what cost out the ass. Batteries are OMG expensive.

Re:Most people need something better

[amiga3D]

I'm retired. I don't drive near as much as I used to so It will have plenty of daytime to charge in. Yeah, if I still worked 6am to 3pm it'd cut into the charge time.

Re:Most people need something better

[djinn6]

Controllers and other electronics are what cost out the ass. Batteries are OMG expensive.

Battery aside, I had no idea those were the expensive parts. But I'm sure those will get cheaper over time too. I even don't remember a time when electronics didn't get better and cheaper every year.

Re:Most people need something better

[Rei]

That's incredibly optimistic on mass. All of the ICE-related hardware on the Volt, for example, is several hundred pounds. The engine alone is a couple hundred pounds. And it's still your standard ICE maintenance mess.

That's not to say that the Volt is "as light as possible" or anything of the sort. I've seen some companies pursuing Wankels, for example (although they burn oil and are slightly less efficient) to reduce mass. A couple car companies have made prototypes with gas microturbines - but microturbines are expensive, loud, and not nearly as efficient as their larger counterparts (half as efficient as ICEs). There's a few other options being pursued, but in general, there's no option on the horizon for a light, low maintenance, cheap, quiet, efficient, etc genset for a series hybrid. If you want a genset, be prepared for ICE complexity and hundreds of pounds of dead mass.

What crash danger are you referring to with genset trailers? They're not very large, so there's not going to be much jackknife risk, and there should be no discernable fishtailing even in the most extreme situations.

Re:Most people need something better

[Immerman]

That's presumably because they're reusing existing technology, which is already covered by their own patents, etc. The volt also isn't a pure series hybrid, as the engine can drive the axle directly for more power... which requires a traditional power curve to be at all useful.

As I recall Tesla turbines quite frequently reach multiple hp/lb, and are typically relatively quiet, dirt cheap to mass-produce, and have only one moving part, though their efficiency in such a simple configuration is somewhat questionable. Their biggest failing is that they don't work at all according to broadly accepted theory, which makes simulation-based improvements rather impossible. I'll admit I'm not well versed in gas-turbine technologies - I had assumed they were a lot better than that, and Wikipedia indicates that multiple hp/lb is actually fairly common in modern engines.

As for the towables - the danger is primarily that most people are completely incompetent at towing trailers - though one as tiny as in your linked photo would probably reduce problems considerably, though backing up is likely to still cause problems. I'm also somewhat suspicious of the ability of such a trailer gas-tank to survive a crash with anywhere near the safety of a full vehicle and crash cage, though I'll freely admit that the engineers may have managed to impress me.

Re:Most people need something better

[shilly]

Yeah, a Zoe works for three small kids in the back, no good for any more / larger than that. It'll be a fair while before there's a cheap larger EV, I'm sure.

Re:Most people need something better

[amiga3D]

Electronics for power distribution isn't the type of electronics that gets cheaper over time. Those are high grade for a reason as they are the most important part of a power system.

Re:Wrong conversion to International System of Uni

[MrKevvy]

The units appear to have been reversed as 215 kilometres is 133.6 miles.

Re: Wrong conversion to International System of Un

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm pretty sure they meant 215 km or 133 mi. That's not a lot of range for these cars.

Re:Wrong conversion to International System of Uni

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess they got it backwards (as it then makes sense) 133 miles = ~ 215km

Re: Wrong conversion to International System of Un

[CrybabiesArePeople]

a simple google search show that it's probably the other way around, 215miles and 346km. From TFS to the comments, a little FUD on behalf of the petroleum industry perhaps?

Re:Wrong conversion to International System of Uni

[Lord_Byron]

Nah, whoever did the conversion messed up the operation (divide/multiply). Per Tesla's site, the range is 215 miles.

Re: Wrong conversion to International System of Un

[Lord_Byron]

It's not, but per the Tesla site, the range is 215 miles. Whoever did the conversion just messed up.

https://www.tesla.com/model3

Re: Wrong conversion to International System of Un

[Anonymous Coward]

Slashdot isn't important enough to have paid trolls. Most people don't RTFA, so we simply tried to make sense of an obvious error in the summary. Your paranoia is absurd and completely misplaced. The submitter made a simple math error in trying to make the summary easier for people outside of the US, who use metric units, to interpret. There is no conspiracy, but too many paranoid nutjobs here see black helicopters and paid shills when a simple mistake (or trolling for amusement) is sufficient to explain what's going on. In this case, people didn't RTFA but noticed the error in the summary and tried to make sense of it.

Re:Wrong conversion to International System of Uni

[Anonymous Coward]

Did they reverse it? Hah.

Garbage article

[Anonymous Coward]

Aside from the unit conversion issue already discussed, the other facts of the article are wrong too. Elon said that SN1 (i.e. serial number 1, the first production vehicle) would be completed Friday, not that they would go on sale. All that was mentioned regarding going on sale was a handover event for the first 30 on July 28th; the vehicle can already be reserved for a $1k deposit, and no news about when reservation holders will be able to configure their vehicles—although presumably some will need to do so sufficiently long before they are handed over that the vehicles handed over match the configured specification.

Not for sale yet... but will enter full production

[Tomahawk]

From the website:

Starting price in USD. Local pricing will be announced in 2017.
Production begins mid 2017.
Delivery estimate for new reservations is mid 2018 or later.

Elon's tweets say:
Model 3 passed all regulatory requirements for production two weeks ahead of schedule. Expecting to complete SN1 on Friday
Handover party for first 30 customer Model 3's on the 28th! Production grows exponentially, so Aug should be 100 cars and Sept above 1500.
Looks like we can reach 20,000 Model 3 cars per month in Dec

Depends on who.

[DrYak]

Tesla cars are expensive bling, but this doesn't meet the needs of most people.

Depends on where those people are.
Europe being more densely populated, its actually exactly the king of thing people need.
Which explains the success of other cars with similar characteristics have been having during the past few years.
(e.g.: Renault's Zoe, Citroen C-zero, etc.)

Lots of people travel 20 or 30 miles to and from work. However, we also have errands and other things to do.

Which all fall well within ~340km / 215 miles range of the car.

Many of us also travel on weekends and make trips a few times per year. The short range of these vehicles {....}

Which taking into account the highway speed limitations in Europe (between 120 and 130 depending on countries - with the exception of Germany having some limit-less sections), means that the car can travel without any problem for 2 hours on a single charge (you could push it closer to 3h if you don't drive like an asshole) (actual experience driving various electric cars).

Which means that this car can reach as far as you can before you need to take break. (Most place recommand taking break every 1h30 of driving. After 2h, you definitely need a 30min rest - by which time batteries could be fully charged again by a supercharger).
And please don't start about driving 8 hours straigh with only a single pee brak in the middle. That's dangerous and borderline illegal (actually is under some circumstance and in some jurisdictions).

coupled with the significant recharge time

on normal week days, the car slowly charges over night so you don't give a damn about it.
on trip, a supercharger can fill the battery in about half an hour which okay as you need to take a break as a driver, otherwise you are a risk on the road.

lack of available charging stations in some areas

Tesla has a nice network of charging station in Europe.

European models of Tesla also use a Mennekes connector like everybody else (unlike the weird shit US models use) meanning that you can charge a Tesla on the numerous charging station that are popping everywhere.
(Though not at full speed like on a super charger. Tesla lack the 2 extra pins of "combo" chargers and thus can only charge using AC at regular station. Though I've hread that Telsa is producing adapter (at least ChaDeMo) so it would be possible to charge faster with it).
But it basically means you can also charge while doing your groceries, etc.

But congratulations on making a car that people will probably buy even though it doesn't meet their needs.

don't get me started with US' obesssion with SUVs.

Elon Musk is even better at convincing people to buy overpriced junk than Steve Jobs was.

It's not over priced, it's the regular price of a car once you factor in the price of the battery.
Compare it, specially with Zoes (Renault sells them both with battery included, and with a separate battery rental - you only pay the car without the batteries).

Re:Depends on who.

[AmiMoJo]

means that the car can travel without any problem for 2 hours on a single charge

Probably 3 hours. My existing Leaf with 150 mile range can do a couple of hours in the UK. Speed limit is 70 MPH, about 120 KPH.

Though I've hread that Telsa is producing adapter (at least ChaDeMo)

ChaDeMo adaptors are already available... ChaDeMo is the most common type of rapid charger in the UK, but on the continent it's mostly CCS.

It's not over priced, it's the regular price of a car once you factor in the price of the battery.

Agreed, and depending on the base spec it could actually be very good value when you factor in fuel and maintenance savings. There are taxi companies in the UK with Leafs that have over 200k miles on them and almost zero maintenance beyond the tyres and brake pads. By the time an ICE car gets to 200k on the clock the chances are it will have had more than the cost of a battery spent on maintenance. Exhaust, filters, spark plugs, radiator, belts, starter motors, fluids, gearbox, clutch, pumps... All consumable items not rated for the lifetime of the vehicle.

Re:Depends on who.

[lbmouse]

In Europe 200 miles is a long distance. In America 200 years is a long time.

Re:Depends on who.

[drinkypoo]

And please don't start about driving 8 hours straigh with only a single pee brak in the middle. That's dangerous and borderline illegal (actually is under some circumstance and in some jurisdictions).

Hi, my piss is brak!

We're getting self-driving cars, right?

Re:Depends on who.

[cahuenga]

It seems the "Supercharger" number is the figure often given and what many people don't understand is that charging at home is a drastically different experience:

Tesla says the 60-kwh battery provides a range of up to 232 miles.... Here are some examples for recharging times: With a single onboard charger plugged into a standard 110-volt outlet... From zero to 300 miles would take about 52 hours at that rate. With a single charger connected to a 240-volt outlet, the charge takes less than 9.5 hours....Step up to twin chargers on the car and connect to a 240-volt...and the total charging time drops to under 4 hours, 45 minutes..

https://www.cars.com/articles/2013/11/how-quickly-does-the-tesla-model-s-battery-charge/

Re:Depends on who.

[AmiMoJo]

In Europe the standard is 230V and domestic outlets can usually provide 3000W+. My home charger is 7.7kW, which is similar to what electric cookers normally use. Homes in the UK are usually good for 100A, which will probably have to increase to accommodate a cooker + shower + charger. Or perhaps some kind of smart system where the charger yields to the cooker and shower when necessary.

Re:Depends on who.

[Nkwe]

Which means that this car can reach as far as you can before you need to take break. (Most place recommand taking break every 1h30 of driving. After 2h, you definitely need a 30min rest - by which time batteries could be fully charged again by a supercharger). And please don't start about driving 8 hours straigh with only a single pee brak in the middle. That's dangerous and borderline illegal (actually is under some circumstance and in some jurisdictions).

Citations needed

Re:Depends on who.

[Anonymous Coward]

You get 150 miles on your Leaf? I have a 2015 and get about 80; it has the smaller battery compared to the newer models. Maybe you mean km.

Re:Depends on who.

[djinn6]

Homes in the UK are usually good for 100A, which will probably have to increase to accommodate a cooker + shower + charger.

In other words, you can't do all three without upgrading your electric system (and I notice you didn't mention AC or heater).

Some people pay more to live conveniently, others pay more to live poorly. I'm glad you're willing to be the second kind of person so I can be the first kind.

Re:Depends on who.

[shilly]

7.7kW is common for EV at home now in the UK. But that's single phase. If you're lucky enough to have three phase at home (not common, but possible), you can get 22kW. That would charge a 60kWh Tesla in about three hours.

Re: Wrong conversion to International System of Un

[Anonymous Coward]

The error is not Slashdot's, it is AP news that has made the error.

Re: Wrong conversion to International System of Un

[Anonymous Coward]

An actual attempt to make sense of the error would involve visiting Tesla's site. Just making a guess is just pretending to attempt, in the best case. I agree that paid trolling is far fetched in this case, it's more likely you suffer from "electric cars are bad so I will assume the lower number" syndrome.

Re: Wrong conversion to International System of Un

[Evil Kerek]

I had assumed he was making a joke to get a 'funny' rating. I certainly hope he wasn't serious.

Re:Wrong conversion to International System of Uni

[Anonymous Coward]

Obviously. Tesla employees aren't stupid. You have to be a either an incredible dipshit or a slashdot editor to get something as easy as this wrong.

Thats going to one hell of a cheap car

[sp4ni3l]

With the taxes here in Netherlands and the dollar/euro conversion this is a midd class car for a really reasonable price! Make a station wagen model and you are set to go at least here in NL. As a company car this would give you only 4% taxable value versus 22% for a diesel or electric car (% of the consumer value of the car you need to add to your income every year). Electric cars only have VAT and not the additional 45% or so uplift. In densly populated Netherlands (and for that matter a big part of Europe): Really good offer!

Re: Thats going to one hell of a cheap car

[Anonymous Coward]

Tesla already said they wouldn't make a station wagon version, so I doubt they would sell many in Europe considering you can't even put a trailer on it...

Re: Thats going to one hell of a cheap car

[JaredOfEuropa]

The S sold like hotcakes here, partly thanks to the attractive price (due to not having the aforementioned extra tax on petrol cars). They are even used as taxicabs, as they offer a nice ride to clients while being cheap to operate. If the 3 comes in at around €35k as expected, I expect they'll sell even more. Most people here don't really need a station wagon and few people own a trailer; so most just rent a van if they have to move stuff.

Re: Thats going to one hell of a cheap car

[Anonymous Coward]

The Majority of cars on the road in Europe are Hatchback/5 door types especially in the 'average family car' range.
The 'S' is not in that price range and the '3' is at the very top end.
A 5 door version would really clean up in Europe. Different market to the USA where 3 box saloons are still very popular. That and SUV and Pickups are where it is at in the US.

I won't buy another 3 box saloon. I drive a mid sized SUV (cost £26,000 inc Taxes). There is nothing in the Tesla catalogue that is even remotely interesting to me AND in my price range.
£40,000+ for a decently kitted out model 3 is totally out of the question.

Re: Thats going to one hell of a cheap car

[Anonymous Coward]

Unless you actually drive with more than one passenger regularly you don't need the two extra doors. They cost extra money and weight.

Re: Thats going to one hell of a cheap car

[Anonymous Coward]

The Majority of cars on the road in Europe are Hatchback/5 door types especially in the 'average family car' range.

I've just looked up Model X, I had not yet had a look at pictures of it.
WTF? It's supposedly an "SUV", but to my European eyes it's a 5-door sedan. A sedan with more height at best.

I'm amused by the anti-SUV crowd : all cars are a nuisance, and you need to ban all big cars like Mercedes, BMW, Peugeot 607 etc. (what americans call "mid size"?) if you ban SUVs, since they're large and polluters and gas guzzlers.

Re: Thats going to one hell of a cheap car

[AvitarX]

The model Y will be what you're looking for I suspect.

maybe still out of your price range, but a small crossover, though based on the X, it will be far more car that I SUV in its cross.

Re: Thats going to one hell of a cheap car

[amiga3D]

I owned a 4X4 pickup for years that I probably put 800 miles a year on. I finally realized that for what it cost me in insurance and taxes I could rent something for the few times I needed it. When I priced a new set of tires for it at 1200 dollars I finally sold it.

Re: Thats going to one hell of a cheap car

[HornWumpus]

MUVs...Mall utility vehicles. Like the vast majority of SUVs. 100% offroad incapable.

Re: Thats going to one hell of a cheap car

[HornWumpus]

You weren't spending enough on tires. No fun.

Re: Thats going to one hell of a cheap car

[Anonymous Coward]

People complained that more traditional SUVs drove too much like trucks (that's because they are trucks!), and after too many of them ended up on their roofs in the hands of inexperienced drivers the manufacturers responded with CUVs, basically cars jacked up just enough to classify as a light truck and enjoy all those sweet CAFE exemptions while not providing any real utility.

So thanks to CAFE, the automotive landscape is now littered with these stupid, ugly, impractical, inefficient cookie-cutter tall wagons with their ridiculous huge tires. CAFE really needs to be changed so that these vehicles classify as the regular passenger vehicles that they really are. A simple rule change and the whole CUV craze would be done overnight and maybe we could get some practical, efficient vehicles again.

Re: Thats going to one hell of a cheap car

[amiga3D]

I did look into some 40" tires and I about shit myself. Mud bogging is more expensive than drag racing.

Re: Thats going to one hell of a cheap car

[HornWumpus]

Only if you go crazy with the motor and go 'mud bog racing'. Power is where the real money is spent.

Racing radials aren't cheap either, to say nothing of shortened axles and tubbed bodies..

ON SALE SOLD

[Anonymous Coward]

What year will your car be delivered?

Re:Wrong conversion to International System of Uni

[Sique]

Neither of them. The error appears already in TFA.

60 to 0 in 6 seconds

[FeelGood314]

It is electric with regenerative braking. It had better be able to break from 60 to 0 in 6 seconds. The acceleration is merely a by product.

Re:60 to 0 in 6 seconds

[pezpunk]

all cars, including this one, can brake far faster than they can accelerate.

somehow i'm missing your point.

wait, you're not actually unaware that the car has traditional brakes and pads in addition to the regen feature, are you?

Re:60 to 0 in 6 seconds

[WolfWithoutAClause]

Actually, some of the silly money, top end cars can now accelerate as fast as they brake to within a fraction of a second. They're either hybrids or full electric. They're so powerful, and single gear, so they're mostly limited only by the rubber.

Re:60 to 0 in 6 seconds

[someoneOtherThanMe]

They're so powerful, and single gear, so they're mostly limited only by the rubber.

Still, they can only accelerate nearly as fast as they brake at low speeds, when air resistance is low enough. Air resistance works for you when braking, but against you when accelerating.

Re:60 to 0 in 6 seconds

[hackertourist]

EVs still have disc brakes in addition to regenerative braking, regenerative braking is not designed to provide emergency stop capability on its own.

Breaking speeds

[fyngyrz]

It had better be able to break from 60 to 0 in 6 seconds.

How fast it breaks, and how many seconds that takes, will depend on just how fast you hit something.

Remember to wear your seatbelt.

Why hasn't Elon Musk been fired?

[Anonymous Coward]

Investors are starting to ask why Elon Musk hasn't been fired yet. Every model of car he has promised is severely behind schedule and under sales counts.

The Nissan Leaf is launching a new model in Sept, announced two days ago, and Musk is always trying to override other companies' announcements. Let's forget that a leaf is $14,000 after rebates for a 120 mile range. By 2018, six major car manufacturers will have 200+ mile range EVs.

Re:Why hasn't Elon Musk been fired?

[Topwiz]

I hope the new Leaf is better looking. The current one is so bad I think they made it ugly on purpose.

Re:Why hasn't Elon Musk been fired?

[pezpunk]

hahahaha ridiculous trolls losing their ass shorting Tesla have no meaningful bearing on this discussion.

Re: Why hasn't Elon Musk been fired?

[Anonymous Coward]

Mainly because his vision for changing the status quo is incredibly exciting for many people. The cars are very forward looking, technology is in much more advanced in many areas and the cars are generally viewed as 'sexy' when compared with the competition.

Basically, he's doing much bigger things then some visionaries, like Steve Jobs, and isn't an asshole to boot. That said, the metrics are a long way from reality but people are willing to give him a real shot because they are inspired. Personally, I think he's going to pull it off and I won't be surprised if Tesla is one of the big three in five to ten years.

Re:ON SALE SOLD

[mspohr]

28 July 2017

Re: Wrong conversion to International System of Un

[Anonymous Coward]

Or more likely because the conversion makes sense if you simply reverse the units in the summary, so people assume the simplest explanation that someone reversed the units in a typo.

Only One Question Matters

[totallyarb]

The only question that really matters is: What is the charge time? 215 miles is a reasonable enough range; but if you're planning a 250 mile trip, you don't want to have to make an overnight stop! If you can charge the car enough in, say, a 15-minute rest break that it can keep going for another couple of hours, then it's a viable vehicle. If not, it's not.

Re:Only One Question Matters

[muffen]

The only question that really matters is: What is the charge time?

Depends on the charger of course, but assuming you are using Tesla's supercharger, you should get approximately 80% battery in under 25min.

Re:Only One Question Matters

[Anonymous Coward]

My Model S will charge enough in 20 minutes at a Tesla Supercharger to outlast my bladder capacity, at which time I stop at another Supercharger.

Re:Only One Question Matters

[Eloking]

The only question that really matters is: What is the charge time? 215 miles is a reasonable enough range; but if you're planning a 250 mile trip, you don't want to have to make an overnight stop! If you can charge the car enough in, say, a 15-minute rest break that it can keep going for another couple of hours, then it's a viable vehicle. If not, it's not.

Not sure why this have been modded up as it's pretty much common knowledge that there is Supercharger Stations about everyone in NA that will charge 80% of your battery under 30min.

And yeah the Model 3 will be compatible with those station.

Re:Only One Question Matters

[s_p_oneil]

This could redefine the term "power nap".

Re:Only One Question Matters

[fred6666]

Even if charging took 8 hours it would be a viable vehicle. Not many people need two cars with more than 215 miles autonomy. The Model 3 can easily be one of those two cars, and the one which end up being used the most.

Re:Only One Question Matters

[pezpunk]

it charges pretty quick. 20 minutes is about all you need most of the time. also keep in mind that long trips are literally the only time you will ever have to use public chargers if you're able to charge at home over night. it's nice feeling knowing i will never again get in my car and realize i have to fill up on my way to or from work.

Re:Only One Question Matters

[totallyarb]

Not sure why this have been modded up as it's pretty much common knowledge that there is Supercharger Stations about everyone in NA [tesla.com] that will charge 80% of your battery under 30min.

1. 1. Learn to grammar.
2. 2. You seem to be confusing "it's pretty much common knowledge" with "a lot of people that I know, know this". I asked because I didn't know the answer. Presumably those who modded me up also wanted to know.
3. 3. If by "about everyone in NA" you meant "just about everywhere in North America", then that site you linked to says you're wrong. Based on their map, the entire state of Texas appears to currently contain a total of 25 supercharging stations, for example. If you live in New York City, you'd have to drive all the way out to the airport to reach your closest station. That's not exactly convenient!
4. 4. The world is not only America.

Re:Only One Question Matters

[Anonymous Coward]

Bleck. In 5 min, I can "recharge" my F-150 to go 700 miles.

Re:Only One Question Matters

[Anonymous Coward]

Ha that's laughable. So you are deciding for me that I don't need two cars with more than 215 miles on a tank? Who are you to decide what i do with my money I earned!

Re:Only One Question Matters

[Eloking]

Not sure why this have been modded up as it's pretty much common knowledge that there is Supercharger Stations about everyone in NA [tesla.com] that will charge 80% of your battery under 30min.

1. 1. Learn to grammar.
2. 2. You seem to be confusing "it's pretty much common knowledge" with "a lot of people that I know, know this". I asked because I didn't know the answer. Presumably those who modded me up also wanted to know.
3. 3. If by "about everyone in NA" you meant "just about everywhere in North America", then that site you linked to says you're wrong. Based on their map, the entire state of Texas appears to currently contain a total of 25 supercharging stations, for example. If you live in New York City, you'd have to drive all the way out to the airport to reach your closest station. That's not exactly convenient!
4. 4. The world is not only America.

1- Yes and I'm actually taking classes right, sorry if I annoyed you with my "not so perfect" English but it'll get better. It doesn't invalidate my post though.
2-Sorry, it's actually a Typo. What I meant was "it's pretty much common knowledge in Slashdot". And yeah we're talking a "lot" about the supercharging capability here and a quick google search will give you the information you need (actually, you can find everything you need to know inside the link of my last message).
3-Typo again (damn cellphone). And I would like you to share me a scenario where you'll have to drive over 300 km straight in a day without reaching one of those station. Personally, the only scenario I got in mind is in case you're delivering pizza or driving a client to the Airport (or in other words, "on-the-road" jobs).
4- Well, I said NA but Tesla opened hundreds Supercharger station in Europpe and Asia (see the link in my precedent post again). And this is ignoring Supercharging station no build by tesla (my company installed three fast charging station in the parking lot.

Re:Only One Question Matters

[Anonymous Coward]

I always love the range issues. I own a car that gets 270miles per tank. When I go on long road trips I rent a car that gets better mileage. I rarely go on long road trips, and only even do semi long trips every once in a while -- PHL to NYC or DC. Anyone who NEEDS to use the whole charge all at once probably isn't the target market.

Re:Only One Question Matters

[Anonymous Coward]

And I would like you to share me a scenario where you'll have to drive over 300 km straight in a day without reaching one of those station.
 
Pittsburgh, PA to Bloomsberg, PA would be one. 346km according to MapQuest.
 
I took a trip that went past this a couple of years ago (a bit north of Scranton PA. There and back in the same day). Even if I could get there by the skin of my teeth I'd have to do two full charges to do the entire trip. So how long does it take to go from a dead battery to a fully charged one? Add that time on top of a good 8-10 hour roadtrip. And given that there are 8 stations at Bloomsberg there could be a chance that there may be an additional wait once the Tesla starts populating more of the road.
 
A further review of the map shows plenty more. I took a roadtrip to Charlotte NC last year, not a single station on my route and even if I went out of my way the closest I could get would be 458km to a single charging station at a B&B that I would need to be a paying customer to use. The big question becomes "What if I was a paying customer and this station was down, what's next?"
 
Yes, if I had to absolutely use the given supercharge stations there are ways I could route myself in a fashion to get from point A to point B if time isn't a question and I don't mind going hundreds of miles out of the way but let's not be foolish about this and act like the heavily touted Tesla charging network is an equal replacement for modern gas stations. They still take at least 10 times as long, they're not found by most major roadways and if you get to a location with less than 50km left on your battery you'll likely be stuck for a while if the stations are taken or out of service.
 
I like the idea, I seriously do. I even weighed (at length) getting an EV when I made my last auto purchase but the math just didn't add up for my driving habits. Would I have bought the Tesla 3 if it were available to me at the time? Perhaps. If it came in a 5 door version I would have made it work but it certainly would have been a departure from my current driving operations and I don't mean that in positive way. It's not the Shangri La of the driving experience that most EV fanboys make it out to be.
 
Oh, and another fast note, I'm taking a 7200km road trip soon. Looking at the map the network would likely be placed in such a way that I could do it with no significant issues but given that I plan on doing a few of 900km days during that trip how do you imagine this working out. So now, even if the station can do a 300km charge in a half hour, I'm looking at doing at least another hour and a half on the road each day if I stop overnight at someplace close to another charging station. My entire trip would be at least 12 hours of charge time if 100% of everything worked out the entire trip.

Re:Only One Question Matters

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

Rent a gas burner.

Re:Only One Question Matters

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

Is he holding a gun to your head forcing you to buy an electric? Buy a gas burner, buy two, why skimp buy three. Why the gas burner owners fell so insecure if some people find electric cars viable and usable?

Re:Only One Question Matters

[Anonymous Coward]

Why do EV fanboys feel so insecure if some people find perfectly logical reasons not to buy an EV?

To be relatively cool-headed about this, fred6666 is pushing his own needs like it should fit every lifestyle just as much as the AC. No one is holding a gun to Fred's head either but you did decide who was more reasonable than anyone else. If anything, owning two cars is the most unreasonable suggestion between these two posts.

Re:Only One Question Matters

[Anonymous Coward]

So, 30 minutes is pretty good, but what happens when there are significantly more electric cars on the road (as the Model X might make happen)? If you pull up to a station and all the superchargers are in use, 30 minutes becomes an hour. If there's a line, that number goes higher.

There are about 5600 superchargers across the US according to Tesla, which probably scales well to the current number of Teslas on the road, but that's still a drop in the bucket compared to the approximately 115k gas pumps in the US.

Re:Only One Question Matters

[Anonymous Coward]

This lame argument is brought up every time Tesla or any other maker of electric cars releases a vehicle. Electric car buyers understand the issue with range. They don't buy them to drive from Alaska to Tierra del Fuego on a single charge. If you want to drive someplace significantly beyond the normal range of the vehicle, take an ICE car.

Yeah, Toyota doesn't sell any Corollas because you can't tow a fully loaded horse trailer with it.

For me, an electric car that has a range of about 100 miles isn't feasible. But for a number of my friends, a Nissan Leaf or Fiat 500e were fine for their needs. Now that electric cars are getting over 200 mile per charge, that works for me. I will seriously consider an electric car for my next vehicle in a few years. When I need to make my annual pilgrimage to Las Vegas, I'll take the gas-fueled car. Or fly. Fortunately, my closest grocery store is a 5 minute walk, so I won't even need to drive there in any vehicle, unless I'm buying the beer for a party.

Re:Only One Question Matters

[Anonymous Coward]

With a supercharger, it should be about an hour for a full charge.

Re:Only One Question Matters

[shilly]

Come back to us when you can refill your F-150 at home, overnight, with under ten seconds of activity.

Re:Only One Question Matters

[blindseer]

We did that regularly on the farm. Pull the truck up to the gravity tank we had, 5 seconds to put the nozzle in, wait five minutes, 5 seconds to pull the nozzle out and put it back on it's hook. No need to wait overnight.

When my last car was ready to die I looked into getting a natural gas car. To refill I'd have needed a compressor on the natural gas line to my house. I'm pretty sure the process was something like, pull in the garage, hook up hose, push button, and walk away. In the morning the car would be full, unhook the hose, and drive away.

Re:Only One Question Matters

[shilly]

Edge cases are all very well, but I was referring to a solution that 99% of gas car users could adopt.

Re:Only One Question Matters

[blindseer]

I'm not a fan of electric cars but I'll play devil's advocate here.

Presumably if people are waiting in line for a charging station this would be an indication that more stations are needed. One would hope that with a proper analysis of usage patterns and such the building of new stations would be such that as more people buy electric cars the growth of charging stations would grow as well. Meaning wait times should not increase but more likely decrease as people get charging stations in places more convenient to their driving habits.

One should also be able to safely presume as people switch from petroleum fueled vehicles to electric ones the filling stations would shift from offering gas and diesel to also offering electric charging.

Re:Only One Question Matters

[blindseer]

That works so long as people like yourself are in the minority. What happens if a large number of people get electric vehicles and expect to be able to rent a car to visit granny for Thanksgiving?

I suspect that rental cars won't be so cheap then.

Re:Only One Question Matters

[blindseer]

If filling up at home is that important to you then getting a tank and a refill contract for it is not difficult. The reason most people don't bother is because it takes about 15 minutes once per week to refill their gas car at any of several gas stations in their vicinity. When I had a shorter commute and a smaller vehicle I'd regularly go two weeks before having to refill. A couple 5 gallon jerry cans filled with gas served as an emergency reserve and to fill my lawnmower. Such a reserve is not available to EVs as cheaply.

I don't understand this fascination with refueling/recharging at home. Are people so anti-social that they cannot be bothered to go to a filling station once per week and maybe come into contact with another human that is not their parent, spouse, or child?

I'd think that 15 minutes once per week is a small inconvenience for a vehicle with effectively unlimited range (stopping for a piss and fuel on long trips), can run even when there is a power outage, and is cheaper to purchase than an electric. I did some calculations on total cost of ownership of electric, gasoline, and natural gas, I found that gasoline would have to get much more expensive to make up for the higher cost of electric vehicles. I'm sure newer EVs have changed the math a bit but I can get a used gasoline car pretty cheap, an EV not so much.

Re:Only One Question Matters

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

Fred6666 just said, "Not many people need two cars with more than 215 miles autonomy. " He/She did not say no one needs two cars with more than 215 miles of range. Do you think everyone needs two cars with more than 215 miles range?

"Not many" is a highly stretchable term. Given the population size of USA, not many could actually run into millions. So get off the high horse. Electric vehicles are becoming viable, they will take a while to beat gas cars in price. When that happens, we will know how many people are willing to pay any premium for the quick fill up and practically unlimited range.

Re:Only One Question Matters

[shilly]

Leaving aside the weird segue into socialisation (pretty sure most of us don't treat gas stations as a major opportunity to practice talking to other human beings), you seem to be struggling with the idea that because X isn't important to you, it may yet be important to other people. Recharge time and the peace of mind of a full charge every morning turn out to matter to quite a lot of people.

Re:Only One Question Matters

[blindseer]

I'm pretty sure that people don't generally use the filling station as an opportunity to socialize either. I'm just trying to figure out the fear of going to a filling station. The only thing I can think of is some kind of agoraphobia or something.

You know what brings me peace of mind? Knowing that when I leave home every morning that I'm driving a 4WD vehicle capable of ice, snow, and rain better than any EV. I know that if I need to go a long distance on a whim that I can refill in 5 minutes at any of the multitude of filling stations around me. I know that if I keep at least a half tank that I can go somewhere between 100 and 200 miles before I'm empty, and again finding a refill is quick and easy. I know that excepting strong winds in the wrong direction that my range is not significantly affected by weather. EVs would likely be less effected by the winds but problems of heat and cold are more common. I know that if I neglect to refill for some reason but anticipate a long drive that day I can dump the fuel I keep on hand for my lawnmowers in my tank and get an extra range boost in minutes. I know that if there is a loss of electricity for some reason that my truck will still get me where I need to be the next day.

The only reason that a nightly recharge gives "peace of mind" is because it relives the range anxiety that EVs created in the first place. If people wanted the peace of mind of leaving home with a full tank every morning it can be done. It can be done without needing to run wires for a quick charger or waiting for the 120 volt slow charger every night.

Where's the peace of mind in knowing that if you run your battery flat that it could mean 10 hours to recharge to full again?

Re:Only One Question Matters

[Anonymous Coward]

Because we're paying for 20% of your car?

Re:Only One Question Matters

[shilly]

Clearly, you can't possibly really think people are afraid of going to a filling station. Clearly, you understand that people just don't want the inconvenience. Why bother with a reductio ad absurdum like that? You surely understand the concepts of marginal cost and marginal utility, don't you?

And as for the last statement: who has an EV that requires 10 hours to charge?! Mine takes 3 hours max, at home. If I'm out and about, it can be done in 45mins.

Anyway, clearly, you want different things from a car from me. That's fine. But the weird thing is, you seem terribly anxious to denigrate my choices and those of other EV drivers, and explain to us that the things we value, aren't good things to value. That's ... odd.

Re:ON SALE SOLD

[Anonymous Coward]

Sometime in 2019 for RHD versions.
Wake me up about then.

Re:Wrong conversion to International System of Uni

[michelcolman]

And according to the rumor mill, that's for the smaller of two battery sizes that will be offered. The bigger one, 75 kWh, is rumored to offer about 312 miles (500 km), based on a picture of the screen of a model 3 test car charging at a supercharger.

Re:Wrong conversion to International System of Uni

[Anonymous Coward]

Nah, whoever did the conversion messed up the operation (divide/multiply). Per Tesla's site, the range is 215 miles.

Hopefully Musk's SpaceX isn't prone to the same mistakes as /. editors. Would be nice not get to stranded 13 million miles away from Mars.

Re: Wrong conversion to International System of U

[Anonymous Coward]

Yep, just like NASA messed up with their feet to meters conversion. How about you stop using your 19th century idiotic system before becoming completely economically insignifiant?

Re: Wrong conversion to International System of U

[Anonymous Coward]

Meanwhile, neither the imperial or metric systems were invented in the 19th century.

Re:Not for sale yet... but will enter full product

[AmiMoJo]

He means that people who put down deposits in the first few nanoseconds of the site going live will be offered the chance to order their cars for delivery soon. But if you order one on Friday, you won't get it until the middle of next year at the earliest.

My Leaf has to go back at the end of 2018. I'm hoping but not really optimistic that I'll be able to get an M3 by then. Maybe if I move to a left-hand-drive country...

Hybrids and batteries

[sjbe]

A car back in the early days could carry extra gasoline. An electric car can't carry extra batteries for the same range extension, because the extra volume and weight would be prohibitive.

No but they can carry a generator and gasoline for the occasions where it might be an issue. Another option would be a towed range extender if the car were designed for one. Admittedly these are stop-gap measures while the technology is young but they are proven viable options and do not require massive infrastructure upgrades to work.

Ad-hoc battery replacement is another one, where you switch out packs of batteries. One problem with that is that you lose your original new battery for someone's old battery, which wasn't attractive for users in the test pilot. And it requires standardization between brands, or it will be too expensive to have wide coverage.

Unlikely to happen any time soon because it requires too much standardization between car makers and battery vendors to be viable. It also has something of the chicken and egg problem in infrastructure that keeps hydrogen from being viable. You need a critical mass of standardized battery packs to make it worth bothering. Nobody makes standard batteries because no cars accept them and cars aren't designed to accept them because standard batteries don't exist. It's not a dumb idea but network effects will probably keep it off the market.

For now, hybrids seem to be a better solution. You can take advantage of the immensely higher energy density of gasoline and rapid fueling, while still having the benefits of electric motors.

Depends on the use case. Honestly an EV with a range of 300 miles would cover 99%+ of the driving I do these days and I think most people are similar. There are use cases where a hybrid makes tons of sense but they mostly are for cases where long range driving is likely to be routine. I think hybrids actually make the most sense for work trucks and cargo vehicles. I'm kind of astonished there isn't a hybrid pickup on the market. Tons of torque for towing, improved fuel economy, and the hybrid can power the electric system for power tools. Probably more than any other use case it makes total sense for a hybrid pickup.

Re: Hybrids and batteries

[Anonymous Coward]

Ford is working on one, apparently. Aside from the obvious fuel economy benefits (trucks are chasing the elusive 30mpg barrier with 10-speed transmissions and turbo-charged V6s already), a major interest among customers is that a hybrid F-150 (as Ford even hinted at) could be used in lieu of a few kilowatt generator in a pinch or in remote sites, reducing equipment requirements.

Re:Hybrids and batteries

[AvitarX]

There was one briefly.

it offered very little fuel economy improvement, as it was designed primarily for the torque.

Re:Hybrids and batteries

[Anonymous Coward]

It also wouldn't have to be Fixed Or Repaired Daily, so dealerships would complain about the lack of service business.

(But I'm only half joking, that really is one of the things holding back EVs in the marketplace, dealerships like having the maintenance and repair work.)

Re:Hybrids and batteries

[fluffernutter]

Unlikely to happen any time soon because it requires too much standardization between car makers and battery vendors to be viable.

How did we ever end up with all TVs using the same standard coax cable? This whole thing about companies not being able to standardize seems to be a very new thing.

Fp 7agorz

[Anonymous Coward]

ppor prioritiBes,

Re:Not for sale yet... but will enter full product

[Anonymous Coward]

A BMW M3 will be quite a difference from a Leaf but you should be able to get one without any problems.

Why is it named the Tesla?

[Anonymous Coward]

The company should be named 'Edison' since Edison invented DC power. Also, AC can fry an elephant in less than a minute. I wouldn't want THAT in my car!

Re:Why is it named the Tesla?

[Anonymous Coward]

If u drive a tesla youre driving an electric chair on wheels.

Re:Why is it named the Tesla?

[Anonymous Coward]

i no wut doze r! i sene dem fatties wride arownd in dem! dem rascals!

Re:Why is it named the Tesla?

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually they should be using those wonderful AC batteries that Tesla invented. And it takes an Edison to think of frying an elephant.

Re:Why is it named the Tesla?

[boley1]

The Telsa uses a variable frequency AC motor, which they have proved results in a simpler, more powerful drive train for vehicles of this size and class. Telsa invented the AC motor. Smaller less capable vehicles can arguably be made as efficient using DC motors but it now appears the future belongs to Tesla's design. At the time that Telsa Motors was formed pretty much every one doing electric cars were doing DC "Edison" motors. Tesla was doing everything different. Instead of ugly scaled up golf carts with DC motors, they made a high performance and beautiful sports car using Tesla's invention.

Re: Wrong conversion to International System of Un

[tysonedwards]

Not only that, TFA has loads of other transposition like 133 mile maximum range for Tesla's Model 3, 200 miles for a Model X, and 200 km for the Chevy Bolt.

Price is better but still has the same problem...

[fish_in_the_c]

I'd love to drive an electric car but until there is some way of swapping batteries or they can get charging times below 15 min what I have is half a car ( because I can't take it on long drives to visit relatives etc) at twice the price of gas car. Not very practical and I haven't been able to justify it to make myself 'feel' green or what would otherwise satisfy my vanity.

Range Anxiety

[Anonymous Coward]

The answer to your question is in your lifestyle. How often do you take trips that are out of the range of the Tesla? How much could you save between long trips with the Tesla, and is the cost of occasional rental worth it? Could you trade cars with a spouse or borrow one when needed?

Most non-EV owners suffer from range anxiety. My solution is simple. For 90% or more of my driving, I use my 80 mile range Nissan Leaf (great car, love it). For the remainder of my driving (long trips), I use my internal combustion engine cars.

Being married with teenage children provides ample vehicles (4), and the Leaf is saving me tons of money on fuel and maintenance. A spreadsheet and meticulous records personally verify this as fact.

Re:Range Anxiety

[chispito]

and the Leaf is saving me tons of money on fuel and maintenance. A spreadsheet and meticulous records personally verify this as fact.

I'm curious what car you're comparing it to that it is saving you "tons." The most directly comparable ICE vehicle would be a Versa Note (since they're the same/similar platform), which gets 31/39 mpg, and starts at $15,500. I'm not even disputing that the EV will save you money in the long run, I just don't see how it can save you "tons" versus an economy car. Maybe you've got an HOV sticker and you're also accounting for time?

Re:Range Anxiety

[Cro Magnon]

The answer to your question is in your lifestyle. How often do you take trips that are out of the range of the Tesla? How much could you save between long trips with the Tesla, and is the cost of occasional rental worth it? Could you trade cars with a spouse or borrow one when needed?

Most non-EV owners suffer from range anxiety. My solution is simple. For 90% or more of my driving, I use my 80 mile range Nissan Leaf (great car, love it). For the remainder of my driving (long trips), I use my internal combustion engine cars.

Being married with teenage children provides ample vehicles (4), and the Leaf is saving me tons of money on fuel and maintenance. A spreadsheet and meticulous records personally verify this as fact.

My daily trips to work aren't a problem. My weekend trips, however, easily exceed 100 miles. Still within the Tesla's range, but consider the hills and the temperature (almost always too hot or too cold) and it's probably pushing the limits.

Re: Wrong conversion to International System of U

[DontBeAMoran]

I measure everything in satoshis and bitcoins. Needless to say, people around me are confused.

Making them

[Anonymous Coward]

Looks like we can reach 20,000 Model 3 cars per month in Dec

Making them is one thing. Selling them is another.

Re:Making them

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

Tesla has already sold several years worth of production.

Re:Price is better but still has the same problem.

[Anonymous Coward]

Back in the 2000's (you're probably too young to remember this), we had cars that could use electricity AND gasoline! These mythical devices were called HIE BRIDDS.

Imagine a world where you could use electricity, OR a readily accessible fuel.

Unbelievable?

That's what Elon Musk wants you to believe.

80 minutes to 100%

[Anonymous Coward]

And it takes 80 minutes to get a model S to 100%.

I won't be in the market for a new car for another 10 years and I'm sure times will be much faster and stations much closer where I drive where it won't be an issue.

Maybe we'll have solar cars where charging stations won't even be necessary - or even stopping to charge.

That would be AWESOME!

Re:80 minutes to 100%

[Anonymous Coward]

"I won't be in the market for a new car for another 10 years..."

what a fucking weirdo.

Re:80 minutes to 100%

[HornWumpus]

All good Citizens have car payments + insurance greater than or equal to half their _rent_! Keeping any of the money you earn makes you a literal NAZI!

Re:80 minutes to 100%

[blindseer]

Maybe we'll have solar cars where charging stations won't even be necessary - or even stopping to charge.

No, just no.

I worked on a solar racing car in college. It had to charge from sunup to sundown in order to "race" for maybe a couple hours. This was a "car" with a single passenger, no air conditioning, built more like a bicycle than anything someone might recognize as an automobile. This "car" had a motor with 1500 watt peak output power, about 2 horsepower. What does the typical car have for power output? 200hp? Or about 150kW?

This "car" also cost an estimated $250,000. Perhaps mass production could bring that down a bit.

That would be AWESOME!

Trust me, the "awesomeness" wears off real quick when the interior temperatures get to be around 40C.

"Sporty", zero to 60 in 6 seconds..

[Anonymous Coward]

Is there a way to limit the max power the can car use?, e.g. go into menus on the on-board computer and make it less powerful/aggressive.

I'm not interested in street racing, getting in a car chase, scaring people off, doing douche bag things.

Re:"Sporty", zero to 60 in 6 seconds..

[pezpunk]

My Model S does 0-60 in 2.3 seconds. that's in "ludicrous+" mode. I can either put it in plain old "Ludicrous" mode, which is 0-60 in about 2.5 seconds, or i can put it in "sport" mode, which is 0-60 in about 4 seconds. that's the lowest setting.

of course, you also have the option to not fucking floor it from a standstill if you don't want to. do you normally drive with your foot stapled to the floor? if you're concerned about efficiency, simply don't drive like a maniac.

the motor pushes energy to the wheels in proportion to your throttle input. i feel like someone with a driver's license should probably understand that concept.

Re:"Sporty", zero to 60 in 6 seconds..

[amiga3D]

It's called an accelerator. You don't have to drive it aggressively if you don't want to. Sometimes it's good to have that power on tap for when it is needed like accelerating to highway speed to merge onto the freeway.

Re:"Sporty", zero to 60 in 6 seconds..

[Anonymous Coward]

You are doing douche bag things. Your response is typical of an aspi-progressive malcontent who has or inherited too much money.

Re:"Sporty", zero to 60 in 6 seconds..

[pezpunk]

and yet i feel great and you seem really angry and eager to sling insults at strangers. hope your life improves!

Re:"Sporty", zero to 60 in 6 seconds..

[Anonymous Coward]

Not angry, just pointing out that you're a douche bag.

Re:"Sporty", zero to 60 in 6 seconds..

[HornWumpus]

Good news! Six seconds is pretty damn slow. Sounds like you love to do the 'crawl off the line' douche nozzle thing.

Re:"Sporty", zero to 60 in 6 seconds..

[pezpunk]

haha pathetic retort from an angry little person.

Re:"Sporty", zero to 60 in 6 seconds..

[Anonymous Coward]

But yet you keep taking the bait. And the fact remains, you are a douche bag.

Re:"Sporty", zero to 60 in 6 seconds..

[Anonymous Coward]

My Model S does 0-60 in 2.3 seconds. that's in "ludicrous+" mode. I can either put it in plain old "Ludicrous" mode, which is 0-60 in about 2.5 seconds, or i can put it in "sport" mode, which is 0-60 in about 4 seconds. that's the lowest setting.

of course, you also have the option to not fucking floor it from a standstill if you don't want to. do you normally drive with your foot stapled to the floor? if you're concerned about efficiency, simply don't drive like a maniac.

the motor pushes energy to the wheels in proportion to your throttle input. i feel like someone with a driver's license should probably understand that concept.

I admit I floor it because I'm driving a Toyota Yaris!

Re:"Sporty", zero to 60 in 6 seconds..

[Anonymous Coward]

Floor it? Depends ...

* Rabbit Diesel (1980s): floored it all of the time. It was the only way to beat a loaded transit bus or semi across the intersection.
* Prius: many freeway entrances are floored. On the plus side, unlike the Rabbit, that usually results in entering the freeway near the speed of traffic in the slow lane (in non-commute times around here, 70-80mph) making the merge a little less frantic.
* Most older EVs including Leaf: same as for Prius. With 0-60 around 10 sec. surrounded by 6-sec.-without-trying SUVs (and a lot of 4-sec.-without-trying Teslas in my neighborhood) you WILL use all of the pedal fairly often.

It's been pointed out before that if we had vehicle performance as good as Ferraris of the 1970s-early 80s we would have double or better the gas mileage using modern technology. Same thing with electrics. 6-sec. Bolts & Tesla 3s are probably necessary these days to avoid being run over, but that requires power systems that if less challenged could go much farther on a charge. So it DOES matter how you drive.

Re:"Sporty", zero to 60 in 6 seconds..

[Sohcahtoa82]

Uh...6 seconds isn't that slow. My 200 horsepower BRZ only does 0-60 in about 6 seconds, and that's if I'm flooring it and do a perfect launch and a perfect shift into 2nd. I mean, yeah it's slow compared to a Nissan GT-R or a Tesla Model S, but it's still quicker than your typical Civic or Corolla.

Re:"Sporty", zero to 60 in 6 seconds..

[Lost Race]

The vast majority of people are such terrible dirvers that even the hyper-aggressive idiots who try to make merging difficult can't keep up with a Prius driven by somebody competent. Get some real driver training (all day closed course instruction and practice) and you'll have no trouble keeping up, even in a "slow" car at half throttle.

Re:Price is better but still has the same problem.

[pezpunk]

it charges faster than you think. i recently took mine on a 600 mile trip and it was no problem at all. one stop for a quick lunch, and that was it. the car was done charging long before we were finished eating.

Re:Price is better but still has the same problem.

[pezpunk]

hybrids are fundamentally dumb. why carry two different types of engines and fuels around with you at all times? dumb idea that hopefully dies soon.

Re:Price is better but still has the same problem.

[modmans2ndcoming]

Why did you pick a random 15 minute time frame? 20 or 25 minutes is currently available.

Re:Not for sale yet... but will enter full product

[Luthair]

I'd say 20k/month is pretty optimistic. That is an increase of 300% in a year, and of the 80k cars produced last year they had to recall 50k.

Re: Price is better but still has the same problem

[KatherineTheGeek]

Most of the time you don't wait for it to charge at all. You plug it in at night at home, and so you literally never have to wait for charging except on a road trip. We've driven our Model S all the way up and down the West Coast, from San Diego to Vancouver, without a problem or regret. As others have noted you just plug it in and stretch your legs, grab a coffee, or stop for a quick meal. Being able to walk away from the car while charging is a huge win over refueling a gasoline vehicle. Stopping for 20 minutes every few hours just isn't the huge burden it's portrayed as. I'll easily trade that in order to know that I'm starting with full range every morning instead of realizing I need to stop for gas on my way to the first appointment of the day.

Re:Wrong conversion to International System of Uni

[Anonymous Coward]

You're thinking of NASA, well more specifically a contractor for them (Lockheed Martin). But from what I understand they were subsequently made aware of the issue by two personnel and a corrective burn was planned but not actually done.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Climate_Orbiter

hidden knowledge

[Thud457]

I just don't get it.
Why is it so goddamned important for the United States of America to maintain compatibility with the measurement system used by Myanmar and Liberia?!!

Re:hidden knowledge

[Jeremi]

Why is it so goddamned important for the United States of America to maintain compatibility with the measurement system used by Myanmar and Liberia?!!

For the same reason it's so goddamned important for people to run Microsoft Windows and Microsoft Office at their businesses, even though cheaper and safer alternatives exist.

Tomorrow's United States of America wants to maintain backwards compatibility with today's United States of America.

Re:hidden knowledge

[phantomfive]

Americans often use metric when it's more convenient (I almost always use milli-liters instead of ounces, because it's printed on all our bottles). We mostly use imperial measurements for the same reason people still use Windows......because the momentum of the past makes it a pain to change.

And don't pretend that the rest of the world is on metric. In UK they still use stones to weigh themselves, in Central America some countries still use gallons, and in Japan they measure area with tatami mats (and I've seen with my own eyes construction workers use other traditional units). Australia uses hands for some purposes, and Chinese speaking countries use traditional measurements.

Why? Why does everyone still use traditional measurements even when the 'official' measurements are metric? Inertia. There's no real compelling reason to change.

Re:hidden knowledge

[bill_mcgonigle]

Why? Why does everyone still use traditional measurements even when the 'official' measurements are metric? Inertia. There's no real compelling reason to change.

Don't forget that the SI was pushed by the French Revolutionaries when they wanted to get rid of everything old. They gave up on decimal time pretty quickly.

But prime factors are a major reason that dozenal systems survive. It's just easier for mental math.

We don't say "nine, ten, oneteen, twoteen, thirteen" for a very good reason, and it's not just inertia.

Re:Price is better but still has the same problem.

[Anonymous Coward]

By half a car I assume you mean 90% of a car. If literally 50% of your driving is taken up by long road trips then an electric car just isn't for you, but that's okay, a truck/minivan isn't for everyone either

Re: Wrong conversion to International System of U

[Type44Q]

Slashdot isn't important enough to have paid trolls.

I feel for you. Unpaid trolls clearly need to unionize...

Re: Price is better but still has the same problem

[Anonymous Coward]

Home charging is fucking bullshit. You still have to literally wait for it to recharge.

Re:Price is better but still has the same problem.

[Anonymous Coward]

How often do you take trips that involve more than 200 miles of driving in a day? Once or twice a year I'm guessing? If range anxiety is really an issue there are plenty of car rental locations (I've done the same, but because my vehicle is a junker). Baring that in most areas quick chargers are pretty available, as long as stopping for 20 minutes to grab a coffee/snack isn't too much of an imposition. EVs aren't going to replace all IC applications, but for most people they will cover 97% of your activity. The rest can generally be handled by rentals & other vehicles (family, friends, etc).

Re: Wrong conversion to International System of U

[Anonymous Coward]

Yep, just like NASA messed up with their feet to meters conversion. How about you stop using your 19th century idiotic system before becoming completely economically insignifiant?

Check the tires from any car anywhere in the world. They will say some where R15 or R17 or R20 etc... guess what that number is measured in.

Re:Wrong conversion to International System of Uni

[Anonymous Coward]

Or 68,800 rods.

Re:Price is better but still has the same problem.

[mrun4982]

Why would I want to drive what is essentially a giant hack? One of the big reasons to own an electric car is so you don't have to maintain a gas engine. With hybrids, you now have 2 engines to worry about. In other words, the chances of something breaking increases. Not only that, the mileage you get with a hybrid is only about 20% better than a regular car that gets good mileage. The days of hybrids are numbered.

Re:Wrong conversion to International System of Uni

[Joce640k]

Only if you choose furlongs per fortnight in the speedometer's configuration menu.

go electric

[jlv]

I've been only driving electric cars for about 3.5 years. My LEAF is still my daily commute vehicle; it's got 27K miles in 3.5 years. Our Model S is our new family car for long trips. We've done several trips of 300-450 miles one way. We've put 6K miles on it in 4 months.

My Model 3 reservation is probably going to replace my LEAF. The LEAF is a great electric vehicle, but really suffers all the typical poor design/implementation of most auto manufacturers. The info system is pathetic; the remote access/status is unreliable (and can kill the 12V battery). Everything looks exactly like it did when it was first designed in 2010 (as it still does on new ones you buy today), and by 2010 standards it wasn't all that "modern".

Contrast this to Tesla where my car has had 3 OTA updates, each of which added new features. Everything is outstanding (except perhaps the amount of visibility in the rear view mirror).

Driving the range-challenged LEAF drastically changed my driving style. It's made me more aware of speed and acceleration (and put me in a hypermiling mindset). I don't need that in the Tesla, but it has helped.

Driving the Tesla long distance really shows where they are the game changer. None of my trips could have been done with a Chevy Bolt -- there just isn't the available, reliable charging infrastructure. Sites like plugshare.com (which is an absolute necessity in the LEAF) can help, but if you can't depend upon the charging stations being available or just working, then you can't really go on a trip. Taking any other car but a Tesla on a long road trip (400mii+) in the US is like traveling by covered wagon!

(It helps that the Supercharging network for my Model S is free; it won't be for those Model 3 owners).

Re:go electric

[pezpunk]

i second the notion that trips in a Model S are a breeze. fantastic car.

Re:go electric

[Anonymous Coward]

This is a real question, not a troll: How do you feel about stopping for 30 minutes to charge on those longer trips. Maybe it is where I am from but stopping every 2.5 hours (you are driving 75-80mph right?) for a 30 minute charge session is just crazy. Normal for a ~350-400 mile trip is to fill up with gas and complete the whole drive without stopping. At around 400-500 you just start with what is in your tank and fill up once. At around 500-800 you fill up before you leave and then once on the road. Charging is adding 15%-25% time to longer trips (assuming you start at full charge) depending on the exact situation. It seems like charging turns an "easy" day trip of 500-800 miles into a pain in the ass.

Also, what do you do if you are visiting relatives without chargers (my primary reason to road trip). Seems like you don't get the benefit of "leaving on a full charge" like all the ideal road trip cases. Nothing like STARTING / ENDING a road trip with a 30 minute stop to top off.

Do you ever encounter routes without super chargers? I know TECHNICALLY the entire nation is covered (using 200 mile rings) but if I have to drive 100+ miles out of the way to get to one then the entire route / trip is invalid / uncompletable.

I am in the midwest so it was easy for Tesla to place chargers to "cover" the area but from a practical perspective it would require taking inferior routes and backtracking just to use the chargers on many routes. Some routes may be technically impossible from a logistics standpoint (destination is more than halfway between chargers such that you can't get back to the charger because you are below half charged after arriving).

Re:go electric

[fluffernutter]

I agree, until the number of quick charging spots approaches that of gas stations, and by quick charge I mean ten minutes, then it is still a niche product for people with less demanding time constraints on their trips.

Re:go electric

[Anonymous Coward]

Well yes, the Model S is a luxury car at a luxury price, with luxury things like free supercharger stations.

Model 3 is the commoners electric mass produced car, basic, anything extra costs $.

Anyways, forked if I'm gonna pay $70k for a Model S, or even $30k for a 3 when I picked up a 3 year old Impala LTZ for 8k. I use transit to commute to work, drive the car around on the weekend, occasional long trips, has the features I need, double the range of your electric thing and can be "refuled" in a few minutes :-)

The next car I buy in 5 to 10 years will probably be electric, but until then I'm not in the smug club.

Re:go electric

[Anonymous Coward]

"Tesla Says Its Model 3 Car Will Go On Sale On Friday"

Better be quick ,it sounds like they only made one!

Re:Price is better but still has the same problem.

[mrun4982]

Everybody I know who has an electric car (I live in a part in a part of the U.S. where these things are very popular) virtually never waits for a charge. They're always either charging at home or while at work and that, by far, covers most of the average person's charging needs. I get what you're saying but it's really not an issue for most people. Yes, there are some that really do make long trips more than a couple times a year and, for them, we'll still have ICE cars for a long time. As to your "I can't take long drives..." comment, just talk to any one of the numerous Tesla owners that do exactly that in their cars today.

Re: Wrong conversion to International System of Un

[Rei]

TFA has apparently been fixed:

The Model 3 is to start around $35,000 and with a $7,500 federal electric car tax credit, could cost $27,500. Tesla says the five-seat car will be able to go 215 miles (346 kilometers) on a single charge and will be sporty, accelerating from zero to 60 miles per hour in under six seconds.

The question is whether Slashdot will leave misinformation up on their front page or not.

This already exists

[mbkennel]

BMW i3 with Range-Extender. I've had one for a week. Main propulsion is 170 hp, auxiliary charging is 33 hp. It does add about 300 lbs to a light car.

Re:This already exists

[arth1]

BMW i3 with Range-Extender. I've had one for a week. Main propulsion is 170 hp, auxiliary charging is 33 hp. It does add about 300 lbs to a light car.

Well, so does my ex...

The i3 is a very nice city car, but it's really on the small side for many, and seriously ugly for being so good. And the i8 is expensive overkill. I hope the upcoming i5 will be nice, and more focused on driving and range (i.e. touring) and less about miserliness.

Re: Wrong conversion to International System of U

[skullandbones99]

Unfortunately, the US did not get the Imperial measurement update in 1824, which was enacted in the Imperial Weights and Measures Act (British) due to US Independence of 1783. This is why the US gallon is smaller than the British Imperial gallon.

What do you mean by "Freedom" ?

[Anonymous Coward]

I assume a registered, insured tesla can stop anywhere an ordinary ICE car can stop.

A tesla can be charged very slowly anywhere there is an available electrical socket.

A tesla can be charged slowly anywhere there is the custom high voltage/current charger. (I consider 80% in 25 minutes to be slow). This can be done unattended so it requires very little human time. These charging stations often are near places to eat / drink / bio-break

A tesla can stop at a gas station, though doing so won't extend the range.

An ICE car can have a full "charge" in maybe 1/6th or faster at a gas station; doing so requires 100% of the driver's attention unless you're in NJ or OR.

An ICE car will likely get towed if it parks at a custom charging station for too long.

Neither will get any added range if you stop the car "off the grid"

Re:What do you mean by "Freedom" ?

[Anonymous Coward]

A tesla can be charged very slowly anywhere there is an available electrical socket.

No it cannot anywhere. My place has lots of outlets. You cannot use a single one of them.

Re:What do you mean by "Freedom" ?

[fluffernutter]

A tesla can be charged very slowly anywhere there is an available electrical socket.

But if that electrical socket isn't at some place that you wanted to stop for that long anyway, then it's a pretty big hit to your freedom of where you go. Rather, you are settling to stay over at the place where you can plug in.

Re:Price is better but still has the same problem.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, it's a really dumb idea. It's a good thing the human body only uses one single way to produce energy - Evolution really figured that one out right. It would be silly if we employed techniques like anaerobic glycolysis, and aerobic phosphorylation in addition to metabolizing phosphocreatine.

Re: Wrong conversion to International System of Un

[Anonymous Coward]

They "fixed" it, too. The wrong way.

Re:Price is better but still has the same problem.

[Anonymous Coward]

I just evtripplanner to compare a trip I am doing this week using my gas vehicle with an all-electric.

Distance 262.9 miles
Driving Time 4:38
Charging Time 0:53
Total Trip Time 5:31
Total Energy Used 73.4 kWh
262 RM
Average Efficiency 279 Wh/mile
Net Elevation Change 380 feet

The results show that for a trip of 262.9 miles it required 53 minutes of charging time on top of the 4:38 of driving time. I realize the distance might imply the range could cover much of the distance on one charge but the time takes into account the locations of the available stations. I found planning this way really annoying.

Re:Not for sale yet... but will enter full product

[BasilBrush]

Yeah, all cars produced between Feb & Oct had a faulty part. That's over half the year so more than half the cars.

It's irrelevant going forward. It doesn't mean that percentage of cars will be recalled. Nor does it have anything to do with how many cars they will make.

An increase of 300% over what? How many X & S they are making? Well, those production lines are not going away. This is all additive. And it's a car designed to be far simpler and easier to mass produce, and for this year at least will have no factory fitted options. Just one model. So that seems perfectly doable.

Re:Wrong conversion to International System of Uni

[BLToday]

BOOM!!!! Another lost Mars probe.

Re: Wrong conversion to International System of U

[skullandbones99]

Check the tires from any car anywhere in the world. They will say some where R15 or R17 or R20 etc... guess what that number is measured in.

That will be British imperial inches.

Re:Price is better but still has the same problem.

[Anonymous Coward]

I forgot to make it round-trip. Results for the round trip are below. I will stick with my ICE for now.

Distance 540.6 miles
Driving Time 9:37
Charging Time 2:24
Total Trip Time 12:01
Total Energy Used 148.9 kWh
532 RM
Average Efficiency 275 Wh/mile
Net Elevation Change 0 feet

robo article from AP?

[BLToday]

I don't see a name attributed to the article and there's still an uncorrected metric conversion relating to the Chevy Bolt.

"But that’s changing. GM beat Tesla to the mass market with the Chevrolet Bolt, a $36,000 car that goes 238 miles (about 200 kilometers) per charge."

Re: Wrong conversion to International System of U

[HornWumpus]

We should have left a sign on the moon with distance to earth, in miles, just to piss you off.

But electric cars emit huge amounts of CO2

[boa]

A Swedish study showed that battery production emits between 150 kg and 200 kg of CO2 for each KW of capacity. Production of a 100KW Tesla battery emits 17.5 tons of CO2.

"The report shows that battery manufacturing leads to high CO2 emissions. For each kilowatt-hour storage capacity in the battery, emissions of 150 to 200 kilograms of carbon dioxide equivalent are generated, already in the factory."
https://www.thegwpf.com/new-st...

Basically, we're fucked as long as we want to drive big cars. A smaller VW Golf with a 2 litre engine emits 119g/km. So one must drive 147.000 kilometers to emit as much as the production of one 100KW battery. That's about 8 years of driving in Europe...

Re:But electric cars emit huge amounts of CO2

[mysidia]

A Swedish study showed that battery production emits between 150 kg and 200 kg of CO2 for each KW of capacity.

Production of ANY car yields CO2 because of electricity usage. If you already have a car, the best thing you can do will be to not buy a new one until it will be no longer economical to continue to service.

Perhaps, by then, there will be Nuclear or Solar energy powering all the production of electric cars, then the CO2 tonnage will be low.

Re:But electric cars emit huge amounts of CO2

[pezpunk]

there are tons of studies that have been done on the cradle-to-grave impact of gas cars versus electric cars, and even AFTER accounting for production and disposal of batteries, and the way the power is manufactured, all the studies have concluded that electric cars are cleaner and less damaging to the environment.

i could link you to a half dozen of these studies, but you have google. search for "cradle to grave electric car" if you're actually interested.

Re:But electric cars emit huge amounts of CO2

[boa]

"Production of ANY car yields CO2 because of electricity usage. "

Correct, but not very relevant. The point was that EV aren't non-polluters as many people seem to believe. EVs with big batteries are huge polluters, even if the electricity comes from clean sources.

Personally, I'd like to see a push for more motorcycles and less cars, even if that'd affect the economy negatively. Cars are big business, which is why it's so hard to replace cars with something more sustainable.

Re:But electric cars emit huge amounts of CO2

[boa]

EVs are better, no doubt. But EVs aren't zero emission vehicles, and big batteries are much worse than small.

Re:But electric cars emit huge amounts of CO2

[pezpunk]

if you're looking for zero environmental impact, the only logical course of action is suicide

Re:But electric cars emit huge amounts of CO2

[boa]

"if you're looking for zero environmental impact, the only logical course of action is suicide"

Jeez, you're childlish.

Re:Wrong conversion to International System of Uni

[Anonymous Coward]

I was gonna say, 133 miles durrr what? Cant even drive from Seattle to Portland or Vancouver BC and back with that.

Re:Not for sale yet... but will enter full product

[Anonymous Coward]

If you look at all the major manufactures, they pretty much recall every vehicle they have ever produced. A recall does not mean you get a new car, it could be a something as simple as a wiring harness or retaining clips.

Only on slashdot

[Joce640k]

The most important new car announcement in decades and what did we get?

20 pages of people arguing over km vs. miles, that's what.

federal regulation for coax

[Anonymous Coward]

Coax configurations were defined by the War Department in WW 2, they being by far and away the largest consumer of such cables. When TV came around, a 4:1 transformer made the 300 ohm balanced line (popular for a folded dipole) into 75 ohms. RG-59 spec already existed. I don't know where the "F" connector came from, but I'm sure it antedates Cabled TV (roughly the late 1960s, early 70s). The specific connector might even be mandated in the FCC rules, which also specify things like leakage from the tuner oscillator, noise figure, and adjacent channel rejection.

So it wasn't manufacturers somehow magically agreeing, it was the Gubmint telling us what to do.

Re:Price is better but still has the same problem.

[Anonymous Coward]

hybrids are fundamentally dumb. why carry two different types of engines and fuels around with you at all times? dumb idea that hopefully dies soon.

It's so that each can cover the other's efficiency weaknesses. Electric motors are most efficient at low speeds, and lose efficiency as they speed up. Engines are extremely inefficient at slow speed, requiring gearing. There is still inefficiencies within each of those gears. You combine the two and you have a vehicle that is efficient at low speed, efficient at high speed, and everything in between with no gears and the capability to regain waisted energy in the form of regenerative braking.(Or are hot brakes more useful than go forward power in a car?)

There are hybrids that are not full hybrids that don't work that way, but the Prius for example is and does.

215 mile range

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, the dominant thing affecting range is the speed you drive - 45 mi/hr on a windy road as long as you're not hard on the brakes all the time, you'll get much better range than if you're zapping down the freeway at 80 mi/hr. That drag going as the square of speed hits hard.

If you're a full throttle/full brake rally driver - yeah, you won't recover as much from the regen as you would if you stay below 60kW regen that the batteries can accept (which is a pretty stiff deceleration, just not "tromp on the brake at the limit of adhesion")

Re:215 mile range

[arth1]

Actually, the dominant thing affecting range is the speed you drive - 45 mi/hr on a windy road as long as you're not hard on the brakes all the time

See, that's the thing about twisty roads (which is the standard in most hilly and mountainous country): you are going to be accelerating and braking almost constantly. If you go at a constant speed that's low enough for the curves, you'll end up with a long string of irritated drivers behind you who can't pass.

In addition, there are the curves themselves, which favour cars with a differential and not those with separate motors per wheel.

Re:215 mile range

[drinkypoo]

See, that's the thing about twisty roads (which is the standard in most hilly and mountainous country): you are going to be accelerating and braking almost constantly. If you go at a constant speed that's low enough for the curves, you'll end up with a long string of irritated drivers behind you who can't pass.

No doubt that's true with LRR tires, but if you have a vehicle which handles better than average, you can carry more speed through turns and then you do less braking than the people behind you and it all works out okay.

In addition, there are the curves themselves, which favour cars with a differential and not those with separate motors per wheel.

That is complete bullshit. If it were true, explain why gasoline vehicles with active torque vectoring (with an e-diff) corner better than vehicles with any other kind of differential.

Re:215 mile range

[arth1]

Curves favor cars with a differential over cars with separate motors per wheel when it comes to energy efficiency - that's what we're talking about here. Not how well they corner.
The reason is simple enough - the energy use isn't linear, but increases more than linear for higher loads. Which means if a motor on one side has to work harder than the motor on the other side, more energy is spent in total than the average of the two sides in a straight line.

Re:215 mile range

[drinkypoo]

Which means if a motor on one side has to work harder than the motor on the other side, more energy is spent in total than the average of the two sides in a straight line.

You forgot loss in the differential.

Re: Wrong conversion to International System of Un

[CrybabiesArePeople]

Yes more reasonable explanation.

Re:Not for sale yet... but will enter full product

[shilly]

I guess you mean i3?

Re: Price is better but still has the same problem

[shilly]

Que? I have never needed to drive my Renault Zoe (with a paltry 80 mile range) because it was charging at home. Because it charges overnight, when I'm not driving. How is this difficult to understand?

go away troll

[Anonymous Coward]

Nope, the loser is is you, desperate to find some minor irrelevancy to discredit electric cars, by bringing up scenarios that are not a problem for the vast majority of people.

Re: Wrong conversion to International System of U

[KGIII]

I am not sure if that's much of a question. It is Slashdot, after all.

So many standards

[sjbe]

How did we ever end up with all TVs using the same standard coax cable? This whole thing about companies not being able to standardize seems to be a very new thing.

Not at all. There is a rather large difference between standardizing on a simple wire termination versus standardizing battery packs weighing hundreds of pounds. Especially given that we haven't figured out what an optimal battery pack design might look like. Battery packs are large enough that you have to design the car around them so getting car companies to agree on a common one is going to be nigh impossible.

And if you are looking for standardization, wire terminals are the absolutely wrong place to look. I happen to manage a company that makes wire harnesses. The number of different terminal options numbers in the hundreds of thousands easily. Aside from a few areas is about as non-standardized an industry as you can find.

Re:So many standards

[fluffernutter]

Sounds like a serious impediment to ever having enough charging stations, if every charging station must be duplicated 10 times over because of a different connector.

Re:So many standards

[drinkypoo]

It does seem like a shame that car companies have had so much trouble even agreeing on a charge voltage. That really makes the whole situation a much bigger PITA than it needs to be. It would be nice to agree on a connector, but you can adapt that away. It's not cheap to adapt one DC voltage to another, though we can do it we reasonable efficiency these days.

Do you repair harnesses, or just build them? I'd like some advice on which brand of harness tools is worth owning. I need to dick around with some mini-iso connectors, which use micro power timer pinning.

unit mix up

[Anonymous Coward]

The units appear to have been reversed as 215 kilometres is 133.6 miles.

A mix-up in imperial / metric units? Is Tesla trying to get to Mars?

An Electric SUV....

[Ferretman]

....Tesla or whoever should would be nice. They'd have to shave a zero off that price tag though for it to make economic sense for me.

I really like the idea of an electric SUV....high (to navigate my gravel road) and no fiddly bits underneath to catch a rock or something hanging down to cause distress.

They'll get there, I guess, eventually.

Ferret

Re:Wrong conversion to International System of Uni

[cheesybagel]

Typical mistake. Me, I still want to know if they kept that obnoxious display sticking out of the middle of the dashboard. Like in the Model 3 prototype. I wonder who'll be the first one who'll get impaled into that thing on a crash:
http://www.starkinsider.com/20...

Re:Not for sale yet... but will enter full product

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually no. The M3 is the high performance version of the BMW 3 series. The supposed joke was AmiMoJo misusing long established car name for a quite different car.
So whoever downvoted it must either not have know what a BMW is or just didn't think it was funny.

Pause and Tiredness : citations provided.

[DrYak]

Citations needed

Citations provided:

Most place recommand taking break every 1h30 of driving. After 2h, you definitely need a 30min rest

One of the numerous example of recommendation of making breaks in Europe :
french government recommending to take breaks every 2 hours.
(France usually has massive campaign against driver tiredness, displayed on the LED screens above highways during holiday breaks, with punny slogans. "Une pause s'impose" is another popular one. And you can count TV and Newspaper to repeat the "2 hours" recommendation).
(I've seen similar LED screens campaign in Italy, but I'm not fluent enough to manage to find nice pictures in google image).

(In other words, to go back to the initial thread subject: if you practice the recommended pauses schedule, you'll never run the battery of a Tesla Model 3 (60kWh), Renault Zoe 4.0 (45kWh) or Opel Ampera (60kWh).
Just as you won't empty the tank of an ICE either)

And please don't start about driving 8 hours straight with only a single pee br{e}ak in the middle. That's dangerous and borderline illegal (actually is under some circumstance and in some jurisdictions).

Random example :
Swiss Law about professional drivers license for regular cars (the kind of driver license one needs to pass when earning money/salary for driving) (i.e.: the kind of license that Uber drivers are required to pass in most cities that actually pay close attention to the law - the few exception are cities who voluntarily accept to close their eyes on UberPop drivers).
It's illegal for driver to drive more than 4h30 straight without a 45min break, there are also limits on the total work day (around 7 hours), pauses of 15min or less don't count as pauses.

8h straight with only a pee break is definitely considered illegal for professional drivers in regular cars (= some circumstances) in Switzerland (= some jurisdiction).
Similar restrictions for professional drivers exist in most European jurisdictions.

Even if you're not covered by this kind of law, if you are implicated in an accident and it is revealed that you aren't rested enough, you might be considered at fault (the same way if you were intoxicated with an undetermined substance or if less than .05% blood-alcool-level - i.e. situations where there is not a clearly defined legal limit, but you're definitely not able to keep attentive enough anymore).
In other words : if the police thinks you're unfit to drive (and there's extensive research on the effects of tiredness on driving, and statistics on its implication in accidents), you're at fault, even if the law doesn't state precise numbers (sleep, some drugs) or you're under the numbers (.049% BAL, when the limit is .05%).
In short: even when it's not explicitly stated in law, you're definitely in for some troubles.

Moot point I think

[Anonymous Coward]

All the arguments here for and against EV are noteworthy, but the biggest argument against them ( for me ) is rather simple.

Where I live, I have yet to even SEE a charging station of any kind.

At all.

Re:Moot point I think

[pezpunk]

the car knows where they are, and there are a lot more than you think.

Re:Not for sale yet... but will enter full product

[Anonymous Coward]

If you really want to invest the money, you can increase the capacity like that. You'll need 1 or 2 months for the supply chain to catch up. But in terms of production equipment: call today and it'll be enroute to your factory by next week Friday.

Re: Wrong conversion to International System of U

[Anonymous Coward]

Rich lonely puke who is hated by his family. Liberal too. Waiting in line for more consumption while living your rent seeking unearned life on the backs of others. You are disgusting. Greedy. Fucking horrible. Your class is shit. Fuck your wealth. Curse you. New money asshole. Go fuck off. Braggart. scum. slumlord. Rentier class. you live off our backs. we build society and us workers, and not even in a commie sense, but all of us wage slave sheeple do all the work and your class has the poor to scare us in line. You make us pay horrific sums of money to get to your universities we pay for in taxes to get a chance to rub elbows with your god damned kids in hopes we get elevated.

you are the fucking scum living in Elysium. and we FUCKING HATE YOU. and your liberalism is a god damned cover for your god damned GREED.

fuck you.

Re: Wrong conversion to International System of U

[KGIII]

Huh... Maybe you should lay down the crack pipe? Weirdo.

EV cars - no thank you, at least not yet

[jroysdon]

I started yesterday reading up on these and other EV cars, very excited. I own an eBike and just love being able to bike to and from work 2-3 times a week and charging my bike every couple days while getting 20 minutes of exercise each way.

However, I can't believe people are jazzed about ranges such as 215 miles for a car, or worst the 100-mile ranged "cheaper" cars like the Leaf, Bolt, etc. For a short-distance commuter car, perhaps, but you can't really do any sort of a day trip with these devices. Just looking at places I like to go, such as the Sierra Nevada foothills and Yosemite, and the charging options are a joke. Worse, there are 3 competing Quick Charge options as far as I can tell (Tesla's SuperCharger, Asia's CHAdeMO, and USA/EU's CCS), and they only have some commonality as the slower "Level 2" speeds with J-1772. I read posts about people trying to make it from Bakersfield to LA without having to charge at the bottom on for Grapevine at a truck stop for hours, and then being excited when they added a charging station at the midway point. Who in the world would settle for this sort of travel and hassle?

Even worse, is that the batteries degrade, and you're not supposed to charge them to 100% as that is bad for them. So, 215 miles? Nah, more like 204 miles, best case, when you first get it. I don't know Tesla's record, but I was looking at the Leaf and they degraded such that by 8 years you were down to 80% in a best case scenario (and many were worse off), so 175 miles. Oh, but you could replace the batteries every 4-5 years for just $6K.

I love the idea of electric cars and the high-tech gadgetry and all, but what is available is just lame and painful to consider owning for the average consumer. In 10 years or so, maybe, when Tesla has perfected the mass-market EV car and battery, and the industry has a clue adopting a universal Quick Charge (charge up to 80% in 30 minutes or less) solution available in many places and maintained. Along with self-parking cars such that you can pull up to the EV parking lot, park and get into the queue, the car then drives itself over to the charging spot when it is available and is connected, and then moves back over the the EV parking lot so others can charge - you know, convenience. I couldn't see having to park somewhere, wait around for 30 minutes - 4 hours so when my car was done charging I could move it.

Back to where I started - I love my eBike. I have a charger for it at home, and a charger at work. Whenever it gets to less than a trip one direction with high wind, I charge it, and it's not really a hassle (as I'll be at work at least 4 hours before running an errand or personal appointment, or at home overnight). I know my range of my eBike very well, and I can augment it based on how much of a workout I want (or how hot and sweaty I will be when I arrive - for work mornings, I take it easy heading in - but for coming home I push myself physically and hit the pool for a quick cool-off): I can get 5 miles per 15% of battery at an aggressive assist, or 10% at a lighter assist (having no assist is very much not an option as the bike is a good 75 lbs). This is all with fairly flat terrain and just a few slight slopes coming out of the bike trails.

I couldn't imaging having to hassle with all this sort of calculation for a car going any sort of distance or road trip. Then having to get in line at a charging queue, and stick around relatively close by in order to move my car to make room for others, oh and sometimes the charging stations are out of service with only one "pump"? Oh, and that'll be $1-2K to have a QC setup at your house so it doesn't take 6-12 hours to recharge your car.

So, just like my eBike, this is a nice solution for short-range stuff. I can get further than my eBike, but it is certainly no ICE (internal combustion engine) replacement. At least not in California, where we drive very long distances and thing nothing of it. 8 hour road trip to go camping and caving - sounds like fun. 7 hour

Re: Wrong conversion to International System of U

[Hamsterdan]

Convenient to have left out the other numbers on the same tire (ie: 225/60 is 225mm with a 60% ratio). Guess what mm in 225mm stands for?

Tooling for crimps

[sjbe]

Do you repair harnesses, or just build them? I'd like some advice on which brand of harness tools is worth owning. I need to dick around with some mini-iso connectors, which use micro power timer pinning.

We are a contract manufacturer so most of what we do is custom original products. We do some repair work though.

As far as tool brands go there is no simple answer because it depends on what you are trying to do. As a general proposition though the company that made the terminal probably has recommended tooling that is of adequate quality. For most terminals there are detailed crimp specification and tools designed specifically for the terminal to be crimped if you are going to do it properly. Typically if you are buying your terminals from one of the big manufacturers (TE, Molex, Delphi, etc) they have tooling designed for their specific parts and it's typically good quality. TE probably has the broadest options so I usually start there and most of the tooling our company has is from TE and Molex. You can look up terminal crimp height specifications on the TE website through their applicators (used on presses) and they have a lot for competitors products too.

I know TE makes micro power timing terminals so that would be a good place to start. A quality hand tool will typically costs several hundred dollars though so you might find it more economical to get a multi-purpose crimp tool which will make a poor crimp and solder the wire in the crimp. We do this all the time for customers who don't want to pay for proper tooling. It's not pretty but it works fine. You can drop a TON of money on crimp tooling in a hurry but unless you are making production parts you should be able to get away with crude crimps + soldering. Ebay isn't a bad place to get used tooling at a discount in many cases if you know the part number for the tool you are looking for.

So fragmented

[sjbe]

Sounds like a serious impediment to ever having enough charging stations, if every charging station must be duplicated 10 times over because of a different connector.

There is some fragmentation in charging station connectors though this is more standardized than a lot of terminations.

The wire harness industry is about the most fragmented industry one can imagine. I have an entire bookshelf 20 feet from me filled with dense catalogs of connectors and terminals of every conceivable size, shape, and type. And new ones are being designed all the time, mostly for no good reason. Engineers are REALLY bad about designing stuff to use just a few basic types of standard off the shelf terminals/connectors.

Well...

[denzacar]

It probably does feel like victory. At least a little bit.