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Bad News If You Make $150,000 to $300,000: Higher Taxes for Many (wsj.com)

From a WSJ report: If President Donald Trump sticks to what he has said, Americans earning between $149,400 and $307,900 are most likely to see an increase in their taxes as a result of tax reform (Editor's note: the link could be paywalled). Those figures come from a recent study by the Tax Policy Center, a nonpartisan group in Washington, and are based on Mr. Trump's statements and proposals. The study concludes that nearly one-third of about 19 million households in that income range could see tax increases averaging from $3,000 to $4,000 a year. By contrast, less than 10% of households earning the least or the most -- below $25,000 or above $733,000 -- would owe more after a tax overhaul. Over all, the study found that about 20% of taxpayers would owe more after tax reform than before it. The issue of tax reform's winners and losers has resurfaced after top congressional Republicans and the Trump administration released a set of broad principles for tax policy on Thursday containing few details.

483 comments

  1. Another fraudulent summary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Just like those who scream "CUT" when the increase they get is smaller than than they wanted, TFA discusses relative winners and losers based on a plan imagined by the author, based on the author's biases, and not reflecting any actual legislation.

    1. Re: Another fraudulent summary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow 1st ever /. complaint about progressive taxation. Oh that's right, it's Bannon's idea. Carry on.

    2. Re: Another fraudulent summary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The whole Trump "administration" is fraudulent. They will have to pass a blank tax bill before actually writing something with content. Republicans have had a long time to plan what they would do if they were in power. All that they can do still is to attack the Democrats. It is always Obama and Hillary's fault even when in control of all three branches. If that doesn't work, go after the Media.

      There is no Republican tax plan! They have forgotten how to make a plan.

    3. Re: Another fraudulent summary by Captain+Splendid · · Score: 1

      LOL you must be new here. This place is filled with libertarians and conservatives who hate taxes.

      --
      Linux, you magnificent bastard, I read the fucking manual!
    4. Re: Another fraudulent summary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You know tax bills don't come from the executive branch, right?

    5. Re: Another fraudulent summary by rally2xs · · Score: 0

      Taxes are necessary, but we hate _INCOME_ taxes. They are stealing. They should be abolished.

    6. Re: Another fraudulent summary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yep. Property taxes and sales taxes should pretty much cover everything

    7. Re: Another fraudulent summary by dougdonovan · · Score: 1

      its true. the wife and i combined do 150k. we just got the irs letter today. deal with it.

    8. Re: Another fraudulent summary by AutodidactLabrat · · Score: 1

      Lie
      You can always leave the Nation
      No one is forcing you
      HOWEVER, Progressive Income Taxes are how you apportion costs among the inheritance class
      Pity is that even Progressive taxation permits wealth centralization.
      Until the NET, TOTAL tax bill of the top 0.1% = the 40% paid in excise, income, sales and transfer taxes paid by the bottom 40%, there is nothing to whine about.

    9. Re: Another fraudulent summary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Gas tax to cover roads

    10. Re: Another fraudulent summary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Right. Imagine you're creating a tax system for a country you'll never live in.

      The fairest possible tax you can come up with is a tax poor people pay the highest percentage of their income?

      Sure...

    11. Re: Another fraudulent summary by Jesus+H+Rolle · · Score: 1

      Don't forget the carbon tax, which we need to pay for stuff.

    12. Re: Another fraudulent summary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or just a liquor tax like the founders had

    13. Re: Another fraudulent summary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't think the complaint is that it's progressive. I think the complaint is that others, above and below, get a cut, while this tranche gets a hike. Another interesting point, since when do you like progressive taxation? Only since Bannon. Don't you usually prefer flat? More of a superficial appearance of fairness.

    14. Re: Another fraudulent summary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're an idiot.

    15. Re: Another fraudulent summary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not progressive if those at the top are paying less. I fall squarely in the threshold described by the author as facing an increase: I'm ok with that, up until the point those at the very top are basically taking a handout from me. Not ok.

    16. Re: Another fraudulent summary by eric_harris_76 · · Score: 1

      Unlike everyone else, who loves taxes.

      Well, some simultaneously hate paying taxes, but love it when other people are taxed.

      And a very rare few who love being taxed so much, they pay extra, just because.

      Apparently, Warren Buffet and Bill Gates are not among that last group.

      --
      There's no time like the present. Well, the past used to be.
    17. Re: Another fraudulent summary by micahraleigh · · Score: 1

      The same thing was said of the democrats (no budget, etc), but that's not why the democrats were removed from office.

      Having a plan is not in itself something the voters want.

    18. Re: Another fraudulent summary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No person's taxes should push them below the poverty line, making it impossible for that person to pay for what proponents of marketplace solutions to every problem to pay their own way. This is the prime reason that no tax solutions can ever address the social and economic propositions that always seem to end up finding so deplorable.

      I'm all for everyone paying their own way. However, it is ridiculous to expect that to happen when the owners of capital refuse to pay their labor force a living wage, which includes the amounts needed to pay a fair portion of the taxes necessary to accomplish the public works a modern nation requires.

      So it seems that both the supply-sider, trickle-downers are just as obtuse and obdurate as those with unaffordable socialist-based extremes.

      Perhaps the US voter will finally begin to think unemotionally about these worthless and unattainable methods of taxation...

      Oh wait! It's a nation of US voters that just elected a politically incompetent fool like President Trump that we're talking about... Nevermind!

    19. Re: Another fraudulent summary by PlaynBass · · Score: 1

      Since money now = speech, and by extension, votes, taxes should be based solely upon the percentage of a nations' wealth that the people controlling that wealth hold and not on the percentage of the demographic that those people occupy.

      In other words, the 0.01% of the population controlling 80% (or x% amount) of a nation's wealth should pay 80% (or x% amount) of the taxes necessary to fund the activities required of government. Our representatives could then concentrate on determining exactly which functions their constituents want to fund, based on the actual costs of those programs, not on what the politicians and special-interest pundits merely imagine that they should cost.

      As always, anticipating the knee-jerk derision of the usual supply-sider apologists. ;}

      --
      PlaynBass
    20. Re: Another fraudulent summary by KingBenny · · Score: 1

      lol ... i guess if you earn that much you CAN leave the nation xD ... if its shouting for sympathy i think it will fall on deaf ears considering most trump voters, im not sure how progressive progressive is, it should be complex algorithm depending on how much actual work you stick into it to some ? like for instance you pay a team of analysts to write HFT algorithms, you make money while sleeping, you can actually afford to pay a little more since you got plenty of time to make more with the more that you make. You got a boat building company that sells handcrafted from the cog to the steering wheel and you work seven days of 16 hours , well maybe you deserve a little more of a break. Its very hard to find a one size fits all here i think but as said, i dont think anyone's gonna pity people who make $300k if they have to pay more cos most of us dont lol. Such an unfair world hm. How about taxing politicians ? i dont know if american senators and whatever have to but in belgium and actually the whole EU wages are tax-free ... in belgium that can make up to euh maybe 60% (its crazy sometimes especially for labour business like gardeners and people who lay driveways and put fences and stuff taxes are fracking crazy if they DONT do seven days and some off the books its virtually not worth it lol and then some ... its a proposition, right ? not a law yet

      --
      Free speech was meant to be free for all... how can anyone grow up in a nanny state ?
    21. Re: Another fraudulent summary by AutodidactLabrat · · Score: 1

      Sounds decent to me.
      How cool would it be if the taxes were based entirely on surplus (investable) income, from any source?
      Thus the single mom putting out for Child care automatically is taxed at both a lower percentage of gross income AND a lower percentage of "surplus"?
      The only other idea that looks feasable would be an "Unearned income tax" wherein all income NOT due to labor, but return on excess (profits) is taxed at a higher rate, since we really need to disincentivize wealth centralization.
      Or do we?

    22. Re: Another fraudulent summary by AutodidactLabrat · · Score: 1

      I agree.
      Reward work, penalize compounding
      thus, those who inherit or gain via existing wealth profit most by the economy and government, and should pay the majority of those costs.
      I'd start with attaching state sales tax rates to every single stock transaction, thus ending the socially worthless arbitrage movement overnight.
      Long term salubrious effects would be investing in startups and HOLDING THE STOCKS for actual market returns, rather than speculative gains.

  2. Death to middle class by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    This is an attack on the middle class. No new taxes for the real rich but we are gonna stick it to the households that have two solid middle class jobs.

    1. Re: Death to middle class by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      middle class?!
      fucks sake i make less than 50.000$ a year in Sweden an pay 33â... of that in taxes!!! and i try to consider myself middle class.
      anyone with a salary of that kind should pay a minimum of 60% in taxes and yeap, for that kind of taxes free health care, child support, free education for children, excellent roads on winter time and so on.

      you guys in America are waay gone, have people living in New York going suicide for not affording health care but still refuse to pay more taxes, geez..

    2. Re: Death to middle class by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Sweden's Government, by and large, governs appropriately and efficiently. The United States Government is self serving and power grubbing. Besides, they get more than enough money - our Defense Budget alone is more than the next 3 countries combined; meanwhile we have people literally starving in the streets, bridges collapsing due to an inability to maintain them properly, and nearly every one of our politicians is in the pocket of big business.

      Never having lived in Sweden I don't know if that's comparable or not, but I suspect not.

    3. Re:Death to middle class by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      $150K-$300K isn't middle class. That's fucking rich. Yes, I know, you whine about the cost of living when you chose to live in a rich neighborhood. Howeveer, that's your choice for living in a rich neighborhood.

    4. Re: Death to middle class by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The US gov. is a mirror of the society, the politicians are a mirror of YOU, the ones that vote them, the ones that support them.
      Stop blaming others.

      I did not hear of you guys "hanging" all those politicians, bankers and lobby-ist that led to crashing the system in 2008 and destroyed the middle class. I did not hear you guys asking the banks to pay all those trillions back with interest directly to all those affected. I do not hear you guys asking for the army to be reduced and stop fighing others wars, impose gun control and more (free or subsidized) education for all, more taxes and transparency of all those taxes and fucking the lobby-ists and whatnot. I do not hear you guys asking for smaller car engines, smaller houses, modest living, helping your own people in need, decency allaround.

      Guys, you went over board with the capitalism and perverted the democracy. I really hope you figure it out.

    5. Re: Death to middle class by cyber-vandal · · Score: 1, Funny

      What are ya, some kinda commie.

    6. Re: Death to middle class by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You haven't been listening.

    7. Re:Death to middle class by Opportunist · · Score: 2

      You'll notice that those that ask for this are also the ones that demand fairness in tax burden. Exempting those that could bear more than those that get to pay the lion's share is by no means fair.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    8. Re:Death to middle class by arth1 · · Score: 0

      $150K-$300K isn't middle class. That's fucking rich.

      Not if you have family members with health problems or made the mistake of having children you have to put through college. There are families who live paycheck-to-paycheck on $150k salaries, flipping every dime before spending it.

    9. Re: Death to middle class by fortfive · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Maybe, but that's a result of lifestyle choices. $150000 for a family of four is definitely easy street in terms of income.

      I do acknowledge, however, that many families in that bracket can feel like they are struggling.

    10. Re: Death to middle class by arth1 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Maybe, but that's a result of lifestyle choices.

      Not always where health expenses come into play. The out of pocket expenses can be staggering. Even more so if congress again will allow lifetime maximums.
      Not to mention those who care for family members that don't have adequate insurance or pensions, like parents or grandparents. The family typically end up with the bills, and grin and bear it.

    11. Re: Death to middle class by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      depends where you live, if decent housing cost 500k a year, 8% sales tax, 5% state income tax, 35% federal income tax, Student loans, putting away money for kids college even on 150k there isn't allot left over maybe 1200 to 1500 in disposable income at in a month. I wouldn't call that rich.

    12. Re: Death to middle class by igny · · Score: 3, Funny

      Education in Sweden is free. In contrast, a family with 3 children in USA is expected to pay over from 20k to 50k per year for 10 years of schools and over $150k per year for 4 years of college. Not to mention other big expenses, like housing or healthcare...

      --
      In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is. - Yogi Berra
    13. Re:Death to middle class by ranton · · Score: 1

      $150K-$300K isn't middle class. That's fucking rich.

      Defining what is "rich" is all semantics. Economists put $150-$300k household incomes into the upper middle class. This class has a very different life experience from people in the middle class, but an even drastically different experience from those who are wealthy.

      Yes, I know, you whine about the cost of living when you chose to live in a rich neighborhood. Howeveer, that's your choice for living in a rich neighborhood.

      And people in the middle class choose to live in a country with running water while there are people who live on $1 a day in other parts of the world. It is all relative. Everyone's standard of living tends to grow with their capability to pay for it. Having to carefully budget housing, food, schooling, health care, entertainment, retirement savings is pretty similar between the middle and upper middle class, just with a different scale. The poor and wealthy are on a different order of magnitude in either direction.

      --
      -- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
    14. Re: Death to middle class by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Oh, hey, look everyone! It's one of those fine representatives of the Master Race trying to convince us all that our biggest problem is a bunch of religious nut-bags in the Middle East, rather than the unholy alliance of Big Oil, Ayn Rand libertarians and our very own religious nutbags, the Dominionists.

      Kill our dependence on oil and the money goes away for Middle Eastern extremism.

    15. Re: Death to middle class by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Education is not free! Not in Sweden, not in the US, not anywhere. Someone always pays somewhere along the line.

      Also, where did you get the idea that Americans pay for 10 years of school? There's a reason it's called K-12 here, and primary school education in the US is paid by property taxes. Also, only private schools are typically in the range that you allege for both K-12 and college.

      You don't have to like this country, but don't use skewed statistics you hear from all the anti-US media to try and prove your point. The real WTF in Scandinavia is why they charge 150% sales tax on cars. According to my taxi driver when I visited there, it was "because that's the way it's always been done."

    16. Re:Death to middle class by mysidia · · Score: 0

      $150K-$300K isn't middle class. That's fucking rich.
       
      Not if you have family members with health problems or made the mistake of having children you have to put through college.

      "Putting children through college" is NOT something that you have to do; It is a personal choice, and a sacrifice only some people can afford because they're f*cking rich. It is probably also inadvisable; your kids should pay their way.
      Also, going to college is not necessarily recommended.

      Again, for people with other family members having health problems that help out are making a personal sacrifice they would only be able to make in the first place because they are f*cking rich, in terms of income.
      Yes, you can sacrifice your richness to help with a good cause, such as survival, or survival of your loved ones, AND the government may even induce people to do so by means-testing programs that could help people pay for treatments, but should that affect the tax liability? Probably not; they still generated that $$$, and a less wealthy person would not have the option of making that sacrifice.

    17. Re:Death to middle class by ranton · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Now that it's the micro-handed crotch grabber's policy more taxes are bad? What happened to "I like paying taxes" and "taxes pay for civilization herp derp?"

      As one of the people in the $150k-$300k range, I do feel I should be paying more taxes. The problem is if the increase tax burden is hitting the upper middle class harder than it is hitting the upper class. Just as I feel my tax burden as a percentage of my income should go up more than those in the middle class, the tax burden of the wealthy should go up more as a percentage of their income than mine does. Federal taxes are the primary form of progressive taxation in the US and one of our few tools to combat wealth inequality.

      --
      -- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
    18. Re: Death to middle class by VikingNation · · Score: 1

      It all depends on where you live. To buy a home in Washington DC you should be earning at least $80,000 a year. Then you have to factor costs of a vehicle, medical, food, utilities, etc. https://www.google.com/amp/s/a...

    19. Re: Death to middle class by burtosis · · Score: 4, Interesting

      America has such a love of sociopathy that psychologists have had to adjust the score downward in America vs. Europe

    20. Re: Death to middle class by TheSunborn · · Score: 1

      The out of pocket expenses?

      Does the us insurance system really work that bad, that 150.000$ is not enough to pay for care?

    21. Re: Death to middle class by guruevi · · Score: 1

      150k/year should be enough to pay for all of that. I make half that and I can easily let the wife stay home with the kids, own a house, pay off and have 2 cars, go out to eat and do day trips and vacations with 3 kids and still put ~500-1000/mo in savings.

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    22. Re: Death to middle class by guruevi · · Score: 1, Insightful

      No it doesn't. With 150k you can easily afford private health insurance with low deductibles. You're earning ~$10k/month after taxes, the worst insurance deductible is $10k/year.

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    23. Re: Death to middle class by MightyMartian · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You will pay either way. If you simply allow people to go bankrupt, then there are significant legal and societal costs attached to major medical interventions. If they have no money or assets at all, then they still get the hospital treatment, and your taxes end up paying for their health care anyways. Unless your talking about literally throwing anyone out on the street who doesn't have health care, then you will still pay.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    24. Re: Death to middle class by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Holy crap, why does anyone live in California anymore when you can move? PA is 6% sales tax and 1% state income tax, and DE is 0% sales tax and 2-6% state income tax.

    25. Re:Death to middle class by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Current problem is ... USA taxes finance nibberizing Ghetto-bangers and dyke-dyke SJW bitch-sluts. Who earns their own money and wants to pay for agitprop Rawlsians ? Noone that's who. So taxes stay too low until Rawlsian Trotskyz get hosed in favor of working white mid-class. Long overdue for a sharp cleansing race-war that clarifies our social-contract ... Ol' Abe got it wrong - - - time for productive white male America to slap-down the snowflakes and bleach-the-stain.

    26. Re:Death to middle class by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      His point, was that no-one he considers "above him" should get any benefits until he reaches their level of luxury. (Because that's money HE could use.)

      This is the same mentality that leads to the current problem. Only on the lower side of things. Don't forget this country is a hellhole when it comes to Capitalism. We not only embrace the absolute worse aspects of it (Greed, Society's needs are irrelevant, Privatized Profits and Socialized Losses, etc.), but encourage them. For example, this is why amongst other reasons, Flint, Michigan still has poison coming out of their faucets. Their society was screwed over for short term profit, and will be forced to pay for it for generations. On to the next town to ravage. It's the reason why having over 20 million Americans loosing their health insurance is a good thing for D.C., it's the reason why privacy is "dead", our schools "can't leave any child behind" and so leave all of them behind, etc. All because self-benefit is more important than benefiting everyone.

      In a society where the idea of "you scratch my back, and I'll scratch yours" is actively discouraged, it's a wonder that it's still standing at all. The only reason for society to exist is that very purpose, to let everyone within that society benefit from it's collective labors. If that reason is no longer relevant, then it's only a matter of time before said society will inevitably collapse.

    27. Re: Death to middle class by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Interesting

      Sweden's government openly promotes degeneracy, so I don't know why anyone is sucking their dicks. Sweden's government is disgusting.

      You don't get the politicians that "you vote for". You get that, influenced by corruptors. Corruptors are drawn by power, like water flowing downhill. A powerless country with weak corruption safeguards may well never have corrupt men in power, because the "reward" to a corruptor may not be worth the costs. A strong and influential nation, especially with a lot of centralized power, needs huge anti-corruption to be anything but a kleptocracy.

    28. Re:Death to middle class by Rob+Y. · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Well, mission accomplished. We're all arguing about whether $150K is rich or middle class - and not talking about the fact that the pain stops at $300K - which, coincidentally, is probably where the most egregious tax inequities start. It's pretty hard to make >$300K a year without a lot of that being in the form of tax-preferred passive income like dividends and capital gains. There are more Americans than you'd think in this income bracket, and a truly disproportion of total US income is attributable to that group.

      So Trump has us middle-to-upper-middle classers arguing about whether or not we're really rich, and the truly rich are getting to keep all the bounty. Kind of a clever trick for a moron like Trump. But then again, the summary starts with "If Trump sticks to what he has said", and Trump has never stuck to anything he's said, so why are we even discussing this. We were supposed to have "a great and beautiful healthcare system with lower cost and far better coverage" by now. "And it'll be really easy, believe me"...

      --
      Posted from my Android phone. Oh, I can change this? There, that's better...
    29. Re:Death to middle class by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      $150K puts you well into the top 10%, and most of that $150K-$300K is well in the top 5%. Yes, it's rich. Is it enough for your situation? That's not the question - you are in the top 10% (or higher) for all income earners, meaning you ARE rich in income.

      Spending now, that can make a rich man poor...

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    30. Re: Death to middle class by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      White male America are the snowflakes. How obtuse can you pretend to be, you can find them all over fox news and breitfart acting like hysterical whiny sheep

    31. Re: Death to middle class by jhaygood86 · · Score: 2

      I'm a family of 3 earning slightly less than that (within 10k of it though) and I can say its not 100% easy street. I'm a single income household, so it's just me working. I work over an hour from home (I would not be able to earn that income closer to home), so I have to pay for 2 cars. I then have to insure them. I have the mortgage on my modest home (It was only $211,800, so it's not exactly a mansion or anything -- your basic 2 story 2 car garage in the suburbs type deal). Groceries, health care (and I'm lucky my health insurance is cheap with generous benefits -- I used to pay a lot more) , gasoline to work (it adds up due to distance -- I easily drive 80 miles round trip commuting in one of the worst traffic cities -- Atlanta), payments on the appliances, telecommunications (can't live in the modern age without cellphones and Internet), travel costs to see the in-laws on a regular basis, etc... I know a lot of people have it a lot worse than me (my in-laws make $60k in Toronto and struggle a lot more than I do since the cost of living there is insane), but it's not like I'm flush with cash. I live pretty much paycheck to paycheck, it's just my expenses are higher due to various reasons.

    32. Re:Death to middle class by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      Defining what is "rich" is all semantics. Economists put $150-$300k household incomes into the upper middle class. This class has a very different life experience from people in the middle class, but an even drastically different experience from those who are wealthy.

      Call it what you will, but $150K puts you firmly into the top 10%, and most of that $150K-$300K range will put you well into the top 5% of income earners. Most would consider the top 5-10% as "rich"...

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    33. Re: Death to middle class by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can always pay more. Please do. I prefer not to contribute to the water and corruption. More government money does not equal better outcomes. You are free to pay more. And I have no problem if you do, but I have a big problem of you force others to be equally foolish.

    34. Re: Death to middle class by Nelson · · Score: 1

      Please describe the tax situation you're imagining. The federal rate, excluding state tax and payroll tax, is 28% for $150k. You're numbers are off by at least 10%. More money is more money and people with that income have it dramatically easier than people with half that income, make no mistake about it but your numbers of wrong.

      It's a dramatically easier lifestyle than someone making half that, no question, but the numbers are wrong.

    35. Re: Death to middle class by GrumpySteen · · Score: 1

      What you're missing is that the increased taxes mentioned here are coupled with huge tax breaks for corporations and the wealthy. The end result is trillions less being paid in taxes overall and more of the remaining tax burden being shifted to the lower income households.

    36. Re: Death to middle class by Bartles · · Score: 1

      College was affordable before we started heavily subsidizing it with taxpayer backed student loans.

    37. Re: Death to middle class by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 1

      Apparently, it's the American way to want more than you can afford and then bitch about it when either (a) you can't have it or (b) you get it and have problems - and how it's someone else's fault. (said as an American, who is debt-free and lives under his means)

      --
      It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
    38. Re: Death to middle class by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A couple making $80k each exceeds that in the US. And to give you some perspective, in the Bay Area the police departments start new recruits at $105k/yr. Its not unusual for combined income of a household to exceed $200k and still be middle class here.
      It's also possible to make $12/hr and live out of your car here. It's terrible but common.

    39. Re: Death to middle class by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You will pay either way. If you simply allow people to go bankrupt, then there are significant legal and societal costs attached to major medical interventions.

      Not if we let them starve to death first.

      Then there is always the "ninth floor" option.

    40. Re: Death to middle class by I'm+New+Around+Here · · Score: 1

      What you're missing is that the increased taxes mentioned here are coupled with huge tax breaks for corporations and the wealthy.

      List some, please.

      --
      If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
    41. Re: Death to middle class by Joviex · · Score: 0

      you guys in America are waay gone, have people living in New York going suicide for not affording health care but still refuse to pay more taxes, geez..

      Bro, your comment, while appreciated for the sake of a more sane economic system, is retarded if you think you can compare a country with a landmass 1/20th that of another, with the "same" problems.

      Your simplistic view is exactly why Sweden enjoys a better life, because its a simpler problem, literally, 1/20th a problem to start off with.

    42. Re: Death to middle class by modmans2ndcoming · · Score: 1

      bull shit. You right wing fucktards have been claiming that shit since Reagan. It is a LIE.

    43. Re:Death to middle class by mark-t · · Score: 1

      Rich is relative.... The fact that it caps at only $300K is what makes it a middle-income figure.

    44. Re: Death to middle class by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The horror that is Sweden is why millions of Swedes are flooding into the MidEast and Africa, seeking asylum and a better life, Almost as many Swedes, per capita, are fleeing hell holes like America, seeing a better life for themselves and their families under the paradise in earth that is Saudi and Iranian rule.

      #maga

    45. Re: Death to middle class by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      College was always heavily subsidized by the government. What changed was that schools were allowed to pretend like every student gets massive financial aid and increase spending on non-academic things. Things like sports arenas that cost tens of millions of dollars. Facilities on campus that are duplicated off campus and cost many millions of dollars.

      It all adds up. The fact that the states are usually contributing less than they used to and the cost of materials like text books have gone up significantly just in the last decade as the publishers merge just makes it that much worse.

    46. Re: Death to middle class by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm fed up with having to pay for other people's failure to plan..

      If you want people to make better plans then you should start with education. But no, we can't afford to pay teachers well and we certainly can't afford to buy proper supplies for inner city schools. The kids will just steal them anyway, amirite? Besides, we've got walls to build and missiles to fire. Those aren't cheap ya know.

    47. Re: Death to middle class by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A professional parasite, I see.

    48. Re: Death to middle class by rbrander · · Score: 1

      It has the same number of problems per person, I'd say. Maybe you haven't noticed that they have a short growing season, short construction season, and other challenges that you do not.

    49. Re:Death to middle class by 0100010001010011 · · Score: 1

      That's upper middle class. You're still one health injury or job loss away from not being in that bracket.

      "Rich" is when you don't have to worry about any of that.

    50. Re: Death to middle class by Paradise+Pete · · Score: 1

      You can always pay more. Please do.

      People voluntarily paying more does not really help because it can't be planned for. Imagine spending proposals for which the justification was "Well, maybe people will send in more money. It could happen!"

    51. Re: Death to middle class by sjames · · Score: 2

      Then you didn't watch the news. What do you think Occupy Wall Street was? The result involved a great many arrests, water cannons, and tear gas.

    52. Re: Death to middle class by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      if decent housing cost 500k a year

      Who are you, Zsa Zsa Gabor? I thought you were dead.

    53. Re: Death to middle class by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Go to the mall and grab some crotches then. See how it works out for you.

    54. Re: Death to middle class by PoopJuggler · · Score: 1

      Because there's crap jobs in those locations, and even crapper weather. And the Steelers suck.

    55. Re: Death to middle class by PoopJuggler · · Score: 1

      Yeah and US$10k to someone living in Bangladesh is fucking rich. Rich is relative.

    56. Re:Death to middle class by ranton · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Well, mission accomplished. We're all arguing about whether $150K is rich or middle class - and not talking about the fact that the pain stops at $300K - which, coincidentally, is probably where the most egregious tax inequities start.

      Nearly the entire Republican party is built upon a foundation of people who resent professionals (engineers, doctors, lawyers, managers) but idolize the wealthy. People are more likely to see $600k McMansions near where they live and resent those who can afford them, but they more rarely see the $6 million dollar homes of the rich. They assume those who gather extreme wealth are the best among us and deserve every penny, but those in the upper middle class are just pompous liberals who never had a hard days work in their life.

      Class warfare is alive and well, and the wealthy are winning by a large margin.

      --
      -- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
    57. Re: Death to middle class by KGIII · · Score: 1

      I'd like to introduce you to a little thing we call Alaska.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    58. Re: Death to middle class by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fuck you, fish tits!

    59. Re:Death to middle class by ranton · · Score: 2

      Call it what you will, but $150K puts you firmly into the top 10%, and most of that $150K-$300K range will put you well into the top 5% of income earners. Most would consider the top 5-10% as "rich"...

      Most would consider the top 5% to be rich. But that is because most people don't have a very good grasp on money and income distribution. The average American thinks the average manufacturing CEO makes 20 times more than their factory workers while they actually make 354 time more. The average American thinks the top 20% richest among us have 59% of the wealth, while they actually have 84% of it. I agree that your opinion is what most people believe, I'm just telling you you're wrong.

      Someone just barely in the top 5% of family income makes $215k per year. This income level is far more comfortable than a standard middle class income, but it does not come close to affording the type of lifestyle people describe when they think of rich. You probably don't own a yacht or a private jet. You probably don't own a second home and if you do it probably isn't that nice. You probably don't have a $100k+ car. You probably don't have a $1+ million home. You probably make sacrifices when planning a vacation instead of just doing whatever you want.

      They certainly have a much more comfortable life than a median income family, but the upper middle class resemble the middle class far more than they do the wealthy.

      --
      -- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
    60. Re: Death to middle class by KGIII · · Score: 2

      No, no they don't. Have you actually ever met a female?

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    61. Re: Death to middle class by ranton · · Score: 2

      You can always pay more. Please do. I prefer not to contribute to the water and corruption. More government money does not equal better outcomes. You are free to pay more. And I have no problem if you do, but I have a big problem of you force others to be equally foolish.

      I challenge you can name a developed country, or any large successful country in history, which was primarily funded by voluntary donations. You can't do it because it is not a reasonable funding method. The tragedy of the commons helps describe why this strategy is a fools errand. Whenever you have a situation where each individual sacrifice only hurts the individual, but collective sacrifice helps everyone, mandatory sacrifice is the only legitimate strategy.

      --
      -- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
    62. Re: Death to middle class by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As a Swede I have only one thing to say to you!
      Sug kuk idiot.

    63. Re: Death to middle class by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      $50K is nothing to write home about in the States.

      This is especially true for a heavily populated urban area similar to cities in Europe.

      When I say that we make more, keep more, get taxed less, and our money goes farther i am not at all kidding.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    64. Re:Death to middle class by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      NOBODY asks for this. They always want SOMEONE ELSE to bear the burden. Americans think that they can have it both ways and get something for nothing without getting the rest that comes with.

      Nobody wants to pay for someone else. People don't even want to pay enough for themselves. They think they can get some sort of bargain or freebie on something that's deathly important.

      It's like a Walmart sort of cheap junk for less mentality.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    65. Re: Death to middle class by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      Why would anyone in the use pay for primary school in the US. That's just moronic. That's what white flight is for. You flee the hoods in the inner city that are your real problem. It's not how much money you blow on the school budget but how your neighbors view education.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    66. Re: Death to middle class by jpaine619 · · Score: 1, Insightful

      You're right about our shitty infrastructure and defense budget. You are, however, wrong about people starving in the streets. It is nearly impossible for anyone in this country, who is not addicted to drugs or has a severe mental illness, to starve to death.

      Starving to death in the streets is a lie told over and over by the left when they try to justify taking _more_ of your money. The statistics do NOT back up your statement.

      In 2016 NOBODY in the entire USA starved to death due to lack of money to buy food. Yeah, as far as anyone can tell NOT A SINGLE PERSON. There were a handful of murders where old people were deliberately starved to death so a relative could obtain their shit (inheritance) and a few cases where a mother/father spent their money on drugs instead of formula/food for the baby/children. In these cases the money was available for food, it was just withheld or deliberately used for drugs.

      Every year there are also a handful of cases where people deliberately starve themselves due to some psychological problem (anorexia, etc)

      Soup Kitches/Food Pantries are EVERYWHERE, as are Food Stamps and EBT.

    67. Re: Death to middle class by sabri · · Score: 2

      our Defense Budget alone is more than the next 3 countries combined;

      Don't forget that at least 30% of that is not really defense. What do you folks do who graduate high school and have no idea what to do? Right, they join the armed forces.

      The armed forces provide more social services than any other government funded program, all paid out of the Defense budget. And you know what? I like that. Because those youngsters don't end up on the street getting welfare and joining gangs, but they end up learning discipline, trades, and are ready to defend the country if needed.

      --
      I'm not a complete idiot... Some parts are missing.
    68. Re: Death to middle class by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I'm sure my Mexican, Asian, Indian and even BLACK neighbors are just DYING to pay for hoochie mamas in the hood.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    69. Re: Death to middle class by jpaine619 · · Score: 0, Troll

      150k/year should be enough to pay for all of that. I make half that and I can easily let the wife stay home with the kids, own a house, pay off and have 2 cars, go out to eat and do day trips and vacations with 3 kids and still put ~500-1000/mo in savings.

      You are a fucking communist. Seriously.

      "I can do this, so everyone else should too". How about you go FUCK YOURSELF?

      You leftie cocksuckers love diversity, until the moment it's economic diversity. YOU ARE A CUNT.

    70. Re: Death to middle class by Xyrus · · Score: 2

      Correction. An income of $150000 for a family of four is "easy streets" IF:

      1. No one has any chronic or unexpected medical problems.
      2. None of the kids are in college.
      3. There is a limited amount of debt (college loans are paid off, no maxed credit cards from hard times, etc.)
      4. You live in an area where the standard cost of living is at par or less with the income.
      5. The family doesn't have to deal with care costs for parents.

      So on and so forth. That money doesn't go nearly as far as people think it does.

      --
      ~X~
    71. Re: Death to middle class by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      No it doesn't. It's total BULLSHIT.

      The max consumer burden for a good US private insurance policy is $6000 or less. That's pocket change for anyone making $150K. Or rather it should be.

      It should NOT put you under. At worst is should slightly elevate your overall consumer debt.

      The ONLY reason this sort of thing is ever a problem for the upper working class is the fact that rampant consumerism discourages any sort of impulse control or planning for the future.

      That $6K could easily be your car or your house.

      Americans blow all sorts of money on other crap. It's only paying doctors that is considered some great tragedy.

      Even the lower working class does this. They also manage to scrape by and fend for themselves when hit with something like this too. Although they are in MUCH less of a position to.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    72. Re: Death to middle class by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Which explains Canada right?

    73. Re: Death to middle class by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      I've travelled the world and have investments that would allow me to retire right now. I have managed this despite dealing with an expensive chronic medical condition because I have one of those "crap jobs" in one of those places with "crap weather" and made a conscious effort to not blow everything I make.

      You sound like a Swede trying to convince himself he's living in the best place in the world.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    74. Re: Death to middle class by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      > 1. No one has any chronic or unexpected medical problems.

      A counter example would like to chime in here.

      Obamacare has been more of a problem for me in this regard then my total medical costs. Jacked up insurance premiums are a bigger burden on my budget then my drug, physician, or hospital copays.

      I get an extra kick in the balls because having been run out of the private market (because it was destroy), I have to deal with insurance companies I would never choose myself. Also, the ACA measure that was supposed to put a lid on the "mid year insurance change" problem is worthless.

      I lost a few extra grand to that last year. That's money I would not have lost if I could have stayed on my plan from 2001. This same "bad plan" also paid for the kind of drug that the NHS and Canada refuse people.

      College won't be a problem either. We didn't go crazy with the house (and it's paid off) and we don't go crazy with the cars (and those are paid off).

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    75. Re: Death to middle class by MightyMartian · · Score: 4, Informative

      You are aware that the US has some of the worst average health outcomes of the industrialized nations, right? Even if bankruptcy were no big deal (which, of course it is, and Trump has never gone personally bankrupt) the US health care system is absurdly expensive, on top of poor outcomes.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    76. Re:Death to middle class by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      > People are more likely to see $600k McMansions near where they live and resent those who can afford them

      I manage both. I can buy one and I think those that do are morons.

      "resent" would probably not be the right word.

      Also that comment of yours right there is a pretty good demonstration of what's wrong in the US. You aren't "rich" unless you recklessly flaunt it.

      $200 sneakers, designer purses, overpriced cars, oversized houses.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    77. Re:Death to middle class by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      > That's upper middle class. You're still one health injury or job loss away from not being in that bracket.

      Either of those is more about spending beyond your means and/or blowing every dime you have as soon as you get it.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    78. Re: Death to middle class by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Please describe the tax situation you're imagining. The federal rate, excluding state tax and payroll tax, is 28% for $150k. You're numbers are off by at least 10%. More money is more money and people with that income have it dramatically easier than people with half that income, make no mistake about it but your numbers of wrong.

      It's a dramatically easier lifestyle than someone making half that, no question, but the numbers are wrong.

      Actually you are looking at marginal tax rates and not effective tax rates. At $150k, single with no deductions, you pay ~35k$ in federal taxes. Giving around ~10k/month after income taxes.

    79. Re: Death to middle class by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As someone who has survived comfortable on 30k$/year, this just sounds like you aren't budgeting saving into your expenses if you are living paycheck to paycheck at that level of income. Also taking out loans to purchase depreciating assets like appliances is just throwing money away. It might take longer,but you will be better off financially if you save up first and buy the higher quality items. In the meantime you can get very cheap appliances on craigstlist that work.

    80. Re: Death to middle class by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Have you ever considered that your anger might be out of proportion to what was said?

    81. Re:Death to middle class by SCVonSteroids · · Score: 1

      "And it'll be really easy, believe me"...

      It's gonna be great! You're gonna love it!

      --
      I tend to rant.
    82. Re: Death to middle class by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The 150% sales tax on cars is only in Denmark.

    83. Re: Death to middle class by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe, but that's a result of lifestyle choices. $150000 for a family of four is definitely easy street in terms of income.

      I do acknowledge, however, that many families in that bracket can feel like they are struggling.

      A boss of mine once said, " Never forget no matter how much money you make, you will always have bills!"

      Many forget this (especially low income people) and just assume that the rich who make more than they do have no problems and live on "easy street" where they can solve all problems by throwing money at them.

      Everyone has a budget they have to live within and how well they do that determines how well they succeed in society in terms of finances. Some are bad at math, some cheat and lie and steal others evade taxes and the large majority hold up the framework of society because they can do nothing else.

      There is no easy street kids, There is no free lunch there are only those who make money on the backs of others who cannot fight back effectively due to lack of resources.

    84. Re: Death to middle class by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because Detroit, Chicago, and Baltimore are all Republican strongholds...

      The worst shitholes in America are all majority Democrat voters and leaders.

    85. Re: Death to middle class by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are aware that those outcomes are cherry picked from demographics, or ignore demographics, to create a false narrative?

      America is #14 worldwide in Math!

      (Until you remove black people from the data... Then we're tied for #2...)

      Moron.

    86. Re: Death to middle class by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      If you have an actual critique of the OECD findings, then bring it on. But you don't. You can't cherry pick average lifespan and infant mortality rates, you pathetic brainlessnwindbag.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    87. Re: Death to middle class by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you think Zsa Zsa ever lived in a $500K house, you're an idiot. Let go of the jealousy, my friend. It's distorting your vision and holding you back.

    88. Re: Death to middle class by clay_buster · · Score: 2

      No it doesn't. It's total BULLSHIT.

      The max consumer burden for a good US private insurance policy is $6000 or less. That's pocket change for anyone making $150K. Or rather it should be.

      That isn't true. I currently pay $1200/mo for Silver coverage for a middle aged couple. HSA/visit fees and deductible are added on top of that.

      Maybe you meant $6000/per person per year + deductible?

    89. Re: Death to middle class by clay_buster · · Score: 2

      No it doesn't. It's total BULLSHIT.

      The max consumer burden for a good US private insurance policy is $6000 or less. That's pocket change for anyone making $150K. Or rather it should be.

      That isn't true. I currently pay $1200/mo for Silver coverage for a middle aged couple. HSA/visit fees and deductible are added on top of that.

      Maybe you meant $6000/per person per year + deductible?

      ______

      Note to self: Remember to preview prior to posting to make sure quote boundaries are correct :-(

    90. Re: Death to middle class by unami · · Score: 1

      it's an exaggeration, a metaphor. there's probably nobody starving, but for many europeans it's still a shock when the come to the US for the first time, and see the abundant, visible poverty many people live in. depends on where you come from too. while i have heard that story from lots of people visiting the US, (I live in "western" Europe), you probably won't be that shocked, if you grew up in romania.

    91. Re: Death to middle class by mea_culpa · · Score: 1

      I don't think anyone that participated in OWS knew what OWS was.

    92. Re: Death to middle class by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Detroit has the 13th largest economy of any city in the world.

    93. Re: Death to middle class by GrumpySteen · · Score: 1

      No. Click the link in summary and go read the full report from the Tax Policy Center like I did. It's quite detailed.

      Of course we know you won't do that. You don't want to know what the actual experts are saying. You're just hoping for a short, summarized response that you can nitpick on in order to shore up your preconceived belief that Trump wouldn't possible cut taxes on the wealthy and shift the burden to middle class.

    94. Re: Death to middle class by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... and you live in a flyover state, surrounded by dumb Trump voters

    95. Re: Death to middle class by shmlco · · Score: 1

      Funny, I thought Food Stamps, SNAP, EBT, and other "socialist" programs were high among the "entitlements" Conservatives were drooling at the mouth to cut and/or defund...

      --
      Any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.
    96. Re: Death to middle class by shmlco · · Score: 1

      "Don't forget that at least 30% of that..."

      And then there's the other 70%...

      --
      Any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.
    97. Re:Death to middle class by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      The top 5% are breeched once you make $188,000. That's not too far above $150,000. So this tax will really hit those at the top end of "middle class" and those who - according to your definition - are the rich.

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    98. Re: Death to middle class by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sources please....it's not an exaggeration by a long shot at all. Have you visited any of the tent cities in large metropolitan areas like L.A., Houston, Phoenix, Detroit, and Silicon Valley? You'll find those exact exaggerated starving people there. All you have to use to see it is your own eyeballs. After the crash of '08 and I lost my 'cushy' IT security job of all low 5 digit salary that barely qualified as middle class (think slightly above a teacher's salary) at a major fortune 500 that went the way of outsourcing, I never recovered. I've lived off of food stamps to support a family of 4 even when I've been sporadically employed in a crappy soul depriving call center only to get laid off yet again. I've survived off of pasta and cheap granola bars only to lose over 60 lbs. I'm not even overweight, at about one and a half inch shy of 6 foot I weigh less then 160 soaking wet and at my worst nearly dropped below 100. So yea it ain't BS, and yea you might not starve to 'death,' but it comes a pretty damn close second to that, and when you got kids you sacrifice yourself to save them. This country is bonkers, and only makes me want to shove my fist down anyone's BS food stamp luxury lifestyle rhetoric.

    99. Re:Death to middle class by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      NOBODY asks for this. They always want SOMEONE ELSE to bear the burden. Americans think that they can have it both ways and get something for nothing without getting the rest that comes with.

      Nobody wants to pay for someone else. People don't even want to pay enough for themselves. They think they can get some sort of bargain or freebie on something that's deathly important.

      It's like a Walmart sort of cheap junk for less mentality.

      You just described the 0.1% rent-seeking segment of society that rules the USA.

    100. Re: Death to middle class by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I visit the USA often, the amount of homelessness is scary. I live in Australia and although we aren't perfect, and USA does have lots of great aspects, it is basically the third world when it comes to living standards and looking after its citizens. It's truly depressing.

      What kind of country doesn't have a proper safety net so people don't have to live on the streets and can receive whatever medical care they need?

      I'm a high earner, completely outside the range being discussed here. My marginal rate of tax is almost 50%. I pay thousands for private health insurance as I'm mandated to do so because I can afford it. I also pay thousands into the public system for those who cannot.

      If I lose my job and all my money, the system I paid into will take care of me. That's what makes our society civilised.

      Your country attempted to setup a similar system and you all cried out like it was a crime against your liberties.

      Perhaps if you left the country to see the modern world you'd see how much better it can be.

    101. Re:Death to middle class by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Have you ever made that much money?

      As your wages go up, so do the costs. For every extra dollar you make, you probably get to take home $0.75 of it. For every dollar I make, I get to take home about $0.50.

      Not to mention greater expectations. When you make more, you're expected to contribute more. You're expected to pay the way for your less affluent friends and family, or to chip in for things people wouldn't expect you to before.

      I'm not complaining, I'm just pointing out that as incomes rise, so do costs. $150k isn't anything to sneeze at, but given the increased deductions and increased expectations, it isn't like you magically have $100k more in your pocket than if you were making $50k.

      I can't speak to $300k, but I've been making $150k for quite a few years doing a blue collar job, and you'd be amazed how little of it is mine to spend, and how little of it I have to spend after increased expectations rear their heads.

    102. Re: Death to middle class by Chris453 · · Score: 2

      Actually you can cherry pick infant mortality rates. The US counts an infant as a live birth if it you know, is alive when it is born. Many counties fudge their numbers by not counting them as live births if they die right after birth. So if different countries use different rules, you can't compare them the same.

    103. Re: Death to middle class by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Now we see the real you...

    104. Re: Death to middle class by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How ignorant can one person be?
      It's like a constant droning every day with people complaining about all that stuff you mentioned.

      THE UNITED STATES IS NOT A MONOLITH! WE DO NOT AGREE ON ANYTHING WHATSOEVER!
      For crying out loud. 3.3 million of us are Muslim, and 7 million are Jewish.

      You say: "I did not hear of you guys "hanging" all those politicians, bankers and lobby-ist that led to crashing the system in 2008 and destroyed the middle class."
      The ignorati mostly voted for Trump because they believed that he was NOT a member of that group and would "drain the swamp". dumbasses all, I agree, but the point is they wanted things to change.
      But have you never heard of occupy Wall Street all over the country?
      http://occupywallst.org/
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

      In addition to the fools who thought Trump was an outsider, almost half the voters DID NOT vote for Trump. What do you think is their position on the things that you mention?
      Or have you even thought about it at all, the fact that almost half the country voted for the left-wing Hillary Clinton? Do you think that Hillary voters are against all the things you mention?

      And what do you think were the positions of those who voted for Bernie Sanders in the primaries?
      https://www.washingtonpost.com...
      Let me guess, you never heard of Bernie either, or have you not thought of the positions of his supporters?

      Keep in mind that this is the country that elected Barack Obama twice. It's wrong to paint us with such a broad brush.

    105. Re: Death to middle class by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm a family of 3 earning slightly less than that (within 10k of it though) and I can say its not 100% easy street. I'm a single income household, so it's just me working. I work over an hour from home (I would not be able to earn that income closer to home), so I have to pay for 2 cars. I then have to insure them. I have the mortgage on my modest home (It was only $211,800, so it's not exactly a mansion or anything -- your basic 2 story 2 car garage in the suburbs type deal). Groceries, health care (and I'm lucky my health insurance is cheap with generous benefits -- I used to pay a lot more) , gasoline to work (it adds up due to distance -- I easily drive 80 miles round trip commuting in one of the worst traffic cities -- Atlanta), payments on the appliances, telecommunications (can't live in the modern age without cellphones and Internet), travel costs to see the in-laws on a regular basis, etc...

      I know a lot of people have it a lot worse than me (my in-laws make $60k in Toronto and struggle a lot more than I do since the cost of living there is insane), but it's not like I'm flush with cash. I live pretty much paycheck to paycheck, it's just my expenses are higher due to various reasons.

      This.

      In Nebraska, $150k/year will allow you to live well. $150k/year in San Francisco? That's dirt poor. All these morons like guruevi who tell people making $150k to shut up and pay more taxes because they can obviously pay for private health insurance since they are pulling in around $10k/month obviously don't understand basic economics, or math, for that matter.

      I earn close to that much per year. After taxes (federal, state, local) and withholdings (retirement contributions, health, dental, vision, and life insurance), my take-home is just about *half* of my weekly gross. Couple that with a mortgage, tuition for the kids (we send them to a catholic school because the public schools are shitty here), an hour commute each way, and living in a high cost of living region, yes, $150k/yr is just getting by.

    106. Re: Death to middle class by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Interesting

      Because Detroit, Chicago, and Baltimore are all Republican strongholds...

      The worst shitholes in America are all majority Democrat voters and leaders.

      Sure man, you believe that, you can blather on about those cities, but then we remember states like Kentucky, Mississippi, Alabama, Texas, Missouri, Florida, all have crippling problems with poverty too.

      Of course, the real reason you hate those cities is that they're so brown. But then, that's why you hate a lot of things, like Soul Train and Deep Space 9.

    107. Re: Death to middle class by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You keep electing people who openly hate government. They appoint people to leadership positions who have no interest in and no capacity to govern well. Then they run the shit into the ground to prove it can't work effectively.

      And then you hire them back because government does work well and they promise to cut its budget.

      Please elect the guy who wants to make government effective or stop bitching that it isn't.

    108. Re:Death to middle class by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You "diversified" the other neighborhoods, and I had to run away for my own sanity and to be around people that are culturally the same as me and don't shit on the street. You forced this choice on me.

    109. Re: Death to middle class by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If I had to pay 60% of my earned income as taxes, I would say "fuck it" and become a criminal. I'd just steal what I wanted from others.

    110. Re: Death to middle class by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      almost half the voters DID NOT vote for Trump

      Almost? I know thats what Trump would like to believe but he got LESS than 50% (in fact, no candidate got 50%)

    111. Re: Death to middle class by HuguesT · · Score: 2

      Infant mortality is defined as the number of deaths of children under one year of age, expressed per 1 000 live births, so your example does not really work. If an infant dies within 1 year after birth, this is counted in the infant mortality rates for all OECD countries.

      However, there is a difference in that the United States and Canada are two countries which register a much higher proportion of babies weighing less than 500g, with low odds of survival, resulting in higher reported infant mortality. In Europe, several countries apply a minimum gestational age of 22 weeks (or a birth weight threshold of 500g) for babies to be registered as live births.

      https://data.oecd.org/healthstat/infant-mortality-rates.htm

    112. Re:Death to middle class by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      FYI, most real women like having their crotch grabbed. The same with hoots and wolf whistles. Women say that when that attention goes away, they know they have grown too old and are no longer desirable. When they are getting their pussy grabbed, and are whistled at, they know they have still got it. When the attention stops, they are menopausal baggage.

      So here we have another 14 year old posting on Slashdot.

    113. Re: Death to middle class by I'm+New+Around+Here · · Score: 1

      You mean the report that states "We emphasize that we are not analyzing the Trump administration’s tax plan:...."? Ok, I'll read it now.

      --
      If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
    114. Re: Death to middle class by sethstorm · · Score: 1

      Yet those red states have Democrats running their cities (into ruin).

      --
      Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
    115. Re: Death to middle class by Izuzan · · Score: 1

      The united states also has multitudes more people than australia and all European countries.

    116. Re: Death to middle class by Linsaran · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Our political parties are not a good representation of our populace. Years of gerrymandering, corporate lobbying, and manipulation of the polls with things like voter ID laws have led us to our current political landscape. Less than maybe 35% of population really supports the kind of extreme conservatism that the majority of the republican party leaders espouse, but the republicans still hold majority in both halves of our legislature; as well as our presidency.

      So I disagree that our gov is a mirror of our society. The gov is a perverted and twisted result of years of allowing certain government systems to proceed unchecked certainly. But I don't think our congress really mirror our populace.

      --
      In a bit of shameless internet panhandling, I accept Litecoin Donations at Lbd2oH9QsthD1GfuUXPyka12YxvWJYnBVf
    117. Re: Death to middle class by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fuck yourself you fascist fuck.

    118. Re: Death to middle class by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Gtfo kektard.

    119. Re: Death to middle class by I'm+New+Around+Here · · Score: 1

      No. Click the link in summary and go read the full report from the Tax Policy Center like I did. It's quite detailed.

      Of course we know you won't do that.

      Wow. That really hurts. Just to show you, I just read it. It states almost all of it's report is assumptions based on campaign rhetoric. Well, if that's all they have to go on, I guess they can make wild ass guesses.

      You don't want to know what the actual experts are saying. You're just hoping for a short, summarized response that you can nitpick on

      No, I wanted to know if you knew what " huge tax breaks for corporations and the wealthy" was in the plan. You don't know that, because it is all assumptions based on political campaign speeches.

      in order to shore up your preconceived belief that Trump wouldn't possible cut taxes on the wealthy and shift the burden to middle class.

      Please read my sig below. It isn't there for window dressing. I'm not a Trump-bot. Thanks for the light exercise.

      --
      If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
    120. Re: Death to middle class by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "The best argument against Democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."

    121. Re: Death to middle class by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually you are looking at marginal tax rates and not effective tax rates. At $150k, single with no deductions, you pay ~35k$ in federal taxes. Giving around ~10k/month after income taxes.

      Yea, I'm going to disagree. Where I live making $22k/year, I pay on the order of the ~23% effective tax rate you state including refunds; federal, state, and local income taxes; Medicare/Medicaid taxes; etc. My effectively tax rate would go up at least 5% if I were earning another ~$130k/year which puts the effective rate at the 28% suggested.

      Regardless, if tomorrow I was earning that $150k/year, I'd go from making ~$1.3k/month to $9k/month and be banking--probably figuratively quickly--at least $7k/month of it (or about a 2,400% increase from my current savings. Meaning even considering inflation, it'd take me only ~10 years through saving (assuming 0% interest) to retire at my current spending habits. It's those sorts of numbers that almost tend to just gob smack me when I hear discussion about people in the upper middle class or rich or whatever you want to call yourself who discuss things like they just couldn't possible save their money and be very well off.

      But, yes, let's go back to the discussion of that $1k/month difference on the tax rate.. God knows that's where the problem is.

    122. Re:Death to middle class by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Listen you little wenis, I'm going to tell you this once and then I'm done. Enough of this bullshit...

      Will you touch my pee pee for a dollar?

    123. Re: Death to middle class by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are a dumbass and don't understand how the socialists in the guvmint wastes money while the capitalists in the private sector spend it as frugally as possible. One entity spends money and calls it investing and the other entity saves money while investing. One wastes and devalues money and the other actually creates, additional, new valuable money or capital. The capitalists make stuff and the guvmint takes stuff. Got it?

    124. Re: Death to middle class by DrStoooopid · · Score: 1

      middle class?! fucks sake i make less than 50.000$ a year in Sweden an pay 33â... of that in taxes!!! and i try to consider myself middle class. anyone with a salary of that kind should pay a minimum of 60% in taxes and yeap,..

      F*CK YOU, buddy. Taxation is theft. I work hard for my money, and nobody else deserves 60% of what I EARN. Take your wealth redistribution ploy and stick it up your arse. I'll off-short my money in a failing Greek economy before I allow a 60% theft of my income. Go f*ck yourself.

      --
      There are 2 groups of people you can make fun of on the Internet without fear of attack. The illiterate, and the Amish.
    125. Re: Death to middle class by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's no fairness in this world. Get used to it. Just because you attempt to make it fair doesn't make it so. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

    126. Re: Death to middle class by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Quit yer fucking spending then.

    127. Re: Death to middle class by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "I know that, but how come it's never unfair in MY favor?"
        - Calvin & Hobbes

    128. Re: Death to middle class by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I heart Sweden.

    129. Re: Death to middle class by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You got it: it's freedom of choice

      What the fuck is fucking wrong with that?

      If I don't want to raise my family in your fucking ghetto and dodge bullets and have my business burned down by your anarchists, I should't have to.

    130. Re:Death to middle class by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > $150K-$300K isn't middle class. That's fucking rich.

      Yeah, I know, it's all relative BUT...

      I consider the divisions not so much by income but by sources of income and lifestyle.

      If your household income is $300k from having two parents working 50+ hours a week plus having a side gig, I'd say that's middle class.

      If you're getting $300k from a trust fund, I'd say that's upper class.

      In general, the middle class works for a living and might even have some property/investments, but being "rich" is having financial security. Presumably you don't have to work and you don't have to worry about how you're going to pay the bills. If you're really rich, you have servants and people to handle your investments, taxes, and legal concerns.

      It also comes down to how you spend your money. If you make $300k but you're in debt from "keeping up with the Joneses" or you just spend everything on toys, that's not really being rich. Like Kiyasaki pointed out - the poor own things; the rich own assets.

    131. Re: Death to middle class by guruevi · · Score: 1

      Nope, I live in a solid left state where property taxes on a house valued at $175k can be close to 12,000/year.

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    132. Re: Death to middle class by PoopJuggler · · Score: 1

      You can only make that income because of the taxes that pay for police, fire, roads, military, etc...

    133. Re: Death to middle class by DrStoooopid · · Score: 1

      Actually no I don't. I make that money because I work hard. You are not entitled to my stuff. If I choose to give you things, that's altruism. If you take those things from me, that's theft. And a fun fact, we had fire and police before taxation. Learn2history.

      --
      There are 2 groups of people you can make fun of on the Internet without fear of attack. The illiterate, and the Amish.
    134. Re: Death to middle class by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you forgot the "per year" part. So yeah, I think she did. As for the rest of your comment...what the hell are you talking about?

    135. Re: Death to middle class by cold+fjord · · Score: 1

      Oh, it looks like I found where some of that Canadian healthcare money is coming from.

      Canadian defence spending among lowest in NATO . . .
      Military expenditure (% of GDP)

      Maybe the US should stop picking up the slack for NATO.

      Hmmm....

      Report Says Canada’s Socialized Medicine Failing Canadians

      Canada’s socialized health care is driving more than 63,000 Canadians out of the country for medical assistance — largely to the U.S.

      A new report from the Fraser Institute, a conservative think-tank, estimates that more than 63,459 Canadians traveled to find the health care that is often unavailable in Canada, usually due to long wait times for operations. That number is a 40 percent increase from the previous year, CTV News reports.

      The Pitfalls of Single-Payer Health Care: Canada’s Cautionary Tale

      --
      much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
    136. Re: Death to middle class by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      our Defense Budget alone is more than the next 3 countries combined; meanwhile we have people literally starving in the streets, bridges collapsing due to an inability to maintain them properly, and nearly every one of our politicians is in the pocket of big business.

      Virtually every federal department in the US spends more than the next 3 countries combined. The federal budget for FY 2018 is over $4 trillion. That includes over $1 trillion in social security payments, over $580 billion for Medicare, and over $400 billion for Medicaid. Combine with state and local funding the US also spends around $1 trillion on education per year.

    137. Re: Death to middle class by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Didn't claim there was any. Only that the ones that don't mind more taxes also want fairness in their taxes.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    138. Re: Death to middle class by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are aware that the US has some of the worst average health outcomes of the industrialized nations, right?

      Actually, if you can pay, cancer treatment outcomes in the US are the best of the first world.

      https://www.forbes.com/sites/tomasphilipson/2016/09/06/eu-vs-us-cancer-care-you-get-what-you-pay-for/#3f3414cb6ba5

    139. Re:Death to middle class by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It isn't warfare because no goddamn white people are out killing people. The retards can't be bothered.

    140. Re: Death to middle class by micahraleigh · · Score: 1

      As soon as I see the word "proper" I disregard the rest.

      Is that what government is about? Affectation? Balancing books on your head? Ettiquette run wild? Formalities? Who decided what makes a social safety net? Why wasn't I asked?

      Poor people in American live better with a free market than the richest people do in other countries, and Americans are on the whole more affluent than most Australians. Better to have 80% (the more motivated) live with good compensation and the poor with charity than to everyone to be tightly coupled to each other.

    141. Re: Death to middle class by micahraleigh · · Score: 1

      Perhaps your post got labeled "funny" because having the governments hand as deeply in your pocket as it is in Sweden is hard to associate with something being free.

    142. Re: Death to middle class by micahraleigh · · Score: 1

      Interesting that you associate the rise of business with access to police, fire, roads, military, etc.

      Why do some businesses fail? Do they get assigned to different police, fire, roads, etc?

      Take Borders for example. Conventional thinking generally says they failed because they didn't embrace the internet sufficiently and their locations were a little uppidty (ok, I'm riffing a bit there). I haven't heard anyone say their failures were outside their control. Perhaps government is picking the winners/losers, but that is generally frowned upon. Not sure if you agree on that one.

      Anyway, if you think success should be credited to utilities, then the burden of proof is on you to explain why some businesses fail and some succeed because ordinary people don't look at it that way.

    143. Re: Death to middle class by erapert · · Score: 1

      anyone with a salary of that kind should pay a minimum of 60% in taxes and yeap, for that kind of taxes free health care, child support, free education for children, excellent roads on winter time and so on.

      And someone from Africa or India might say that anyone making 50k a year should pay 90% of that in taxes-- after all, one can easily get by on a couple thousand a year in Africa, why would a Swede need any more than that? No, those greedy Swedes should pay their fair share.

      Folks like you are always so strident, so sanctimonious, when calling for higher taxes on other people.

    144. Re: Death to middle class by MooseMiester · · Score: 1

      You need to get out and do some real travelling. Our infrastructure is superb compared to most of the world....

      --
      Murphy was an optimist
    145. Re:Death to middle class by MooseMiester · · Score: 1

      It depends on where you live. $150K a year in San Francisco is barely above the poverty level...

      --
      Murphy was an optimist
    146. Re: Death to middle class by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't you guys have a serious feminism infestation?

      Men with no balls.

    147. Re: Death to middle class by Dr_Terminus · · Score: 1

      I've lived in both the US and France, and made drastically different amounts in each country. What I've found is that salaries are hard to directly compare from country to country, without factoring in all the externalities. In my case, I'm now making more than twice what I made in France, but I definitely don't feel that way. It seemed like I had more money at the end of the month in France than I do in the US. But looking at the whole picture, I can see why.

      In France, heath costs, schooling, retirement/pensions, lunches, public transport and many other things are subsidized and handled by the government in ways that they are not in the US. In effect, by society handling those things, it lowered the cost for everyone. Here in the US, I have to worry about putting enough aside for retirement, for paying for health care, etc which can take a big chunk of my salary, not to mention my peace of mind. Add in things like more expensive services (internet is 3x more expensive in the US for an inferior quality), requirement to own a car, etc, its no wonder my dollar seems more stretched...

    148. Re: Death to middle class by micahraleigh · · Score: 1

      Let's make DC largesse a mandatory sacrifice.

      You know like how Hugo Chavez died with $2 billion because he truly cared about the poor?

      If these beltway types cared about people, they wouldn't be living in the lib beverly hills.

    149. Re: Death to middle class by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just because I care about ordinary people, doesn't mean I want to BE one!

    150. Re: Death to middle class by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      Yet those red states have Democrats running their cities (into ruin).

      Funny, when your party is vocally, publicly about shifting wealth from the poor and middle class to the upper class, strangely those who are destitute tend to vote for the other guy instead. How strange.

    151. Re: Death to middle class by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      Nope, I live in a solid left state where property taxes on a house valued at $175k can be close to 12,000/year.

      Holy smokes, those are some crazy property taxes. Mine are about $20k/year, but that's on a house valued at about $700k, in the heart of blue-state hippie country.

    152. Re: Death to middle class by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      The horror that is Sweden is why millions of Swedes are flooding into the MidEast and Africa, seeking asylum and a better life, Almost as many Swedes, per capita, are fleeing hell holes like America, seeing a better life for themselves and their families under the paradise in earth that is Saudi and Iranian rule.

      People fleeing from the MidEast to Sweden has very little to do with social services in each area or vice versa.

    153. Re: Death to middle class by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      Actually no I don't.

      Actually yes you do. Libertarians and hard-right Republicans and Randroids love to believe they are a man alone, solely responsible for the things that have happened in his life, completely disregarding the infrastructure of the rest of society that makes peaceful pursuit of wealth possible in the first place. It leads to idiot statements like "taxation is theft." If you don't want to interact with society, then sell all your possessions and move to some abandoned island all alone, if you can find one. Until then, you're part of society, and no you don't get to benefit from it without paying out to it.

      And a fun fact, we had fire and police before taxation. Learn2history

      I'm not sure you really want to play that game.

    154. Re: Death to middle class by PlaynBass · · Score: 1

      Since I commented on this thread, I can only comment my support of this. Modded up to +5, if I only could!

      And no, this commenter is not a commie! A well-run government that wisely allocates taxes for the benefit of all its citizens is light years of political advancement beyond those worthless 18th-century labels.

      --
      PlaynBass
    155. Re: Death to middle class by PlaynBass · · Score: 1

      This comment should be modded -5 for its lack of intelligence and for its offensive flame-bait and homophobic hatred.

      --
      PlaynBass
    156. Re: Death to middle class by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, I am certainly no Randroid, but IIRC in Atlas Shrugged, that was exactly what those who fled to Galt's Gulch wanted... a society where they got out exactly what they paid in, all voluntarily and freely negotiated instead of "at the barrel of a gun."

    157. Re: Death to middle class by PlaynBass · · Score: 1

      If I only could, I'd mod this comment to +5!

      --
      PlaynBass
    158. Re: Death to middle class by PlaynBass · · Score: 1

      You obviously are not one of those "affluent" poor people. You probably ascribe to the joke sentiment, "The beatings will continue until morale improves! See! The morale has still not improved, so the beatings must be working!" Go bury yourself under a rock!

      --
      PlaynBass
    159. Re: Death to middle class by DrStoooopid · · Score: 1

      Typical liberal. Marginalized and discredit because they can't deal with facts and logic. You are not entitled to the things I produce. Just what makes you think that you are entitled to anything that belongs to someone else? But considering you're wrong, yeah, we can play that game if you want to be a little douche-canoe

      --
      There are 2 groups of people you can make fun of on the Internet without fear of attack. The illiterate, and the Amish.
    160. Re: Death to middle class by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, I am certainly no Randroid, but IIRC in Atlas Shrugged, that was exactly what those who fled to Galt's Gulch wanted... a society where they got out exactly what they paid in, all voluntarily and freely negotiated instead of "at the barrel of a gun."

      Exactly. Why should I get taxed for things I don't or won't use? It's nonsense. Most of these public programs are designed for people who can't or won't fend for themselves.

    161. Re: Death to middle class by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      Typical liberal. Marginalized and discredit because they can't deal with facts and logic.

      I'm not a liberal. I trend towards economically conservative more than liberal, though I'm certainly more centrist than you.
      I just recognize that statements like "police and firemen don't need taxes" and "taxation is theft" is super-hard-right cuckooland, really off in the weeds. There are a limited number of services that ought to be provided by the government, and taxes are the only stable revenue source we've found for that.

    162. Re: Death to middle class by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sure, because conservatives have a monopoly on facts and logic?

      I've never, ever heard a right-wing-nut get all worked up and go off on an emotion-driven, fact-free irrational rant. Nope, not once... must never happen!

    163. Re: Death to middle class by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most of these public programs are designed for people who can'tor won't fend for themselves.

      So when you get injured or chronically ill, and can't fend for yourself, I look forward to driving you out to the woods and leaving you to die...

    164. Re: Death to middle class by Bartles · · Score: 1

      Well, student loans also get used for things like textbooks. It's no surprise that when lots of "free" money is available for those things, their prices increase.

    165. Re: Death to middle class by rbrander · · Score: 1

      And the 750,000 people who live there are 0.21% of your population.

  3. Brilliant! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So, is that flat or sliding proportional to the cost of living for your region? Because $150K for a family in SF does not feel like you think it would...

    No, I did not read the paywalled story

    1. Re:Brilliant! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      SF

      So you want a tax break because you choose to make yourself house poor living in the hive?

      Sorry, no. Don't like the cost of living you've self inflicted? Move. Don't want to move? Pay. Either way fuck off with your sliding proportional bullshit.

    2. Re:Brilliant! by hord · · Score: 1

      I keep getting told I can move when the conditions around me aren't suitable. Guess what... everyone can move. Why would I care about the cost of living in SF when I live in Denver?

    3. Re:Brilliant! by beelsebob · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It's actually going to be more painful for those expensive areas like SF.

      One of the proposals in Trump's tax plan is to drop the deductions for state and local taxes, and for mortgage interest. The areas where people earn $150-300k are usually the areas with high state and local taxes, and where houses cost a lot.

    4. Re:Brilliant! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      As much as I don't like Trump or his tax reform plans, you're actually repeating false information. Removing mortgage interest is no longer in the plan.

    5. Re:Brilliant! by beelsebob · · Score: 1

      Interesting, thanks for the info. That said, it seems somewhat backwards to me. If you wanted to remove one, the deduction on mortgage interest seems reasonable - the government isn't penalising you that money, you made a choice to pay it.

      The state and local taxes on the other hand, by not having that deduction, causes people to be double-taxed, which is weird.

      Of course, with my cynical hat on... if you wanted to penalise left leaning people, double-taxing people in states that pay high state and local taxes would be a good way to do it.

    6. Re:Brilliant! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's actually going to be more painful for those expensive areas like SF.

      One of the proposals in Trump's tax plan is to drop the deductions for state and local taxes, and for mortgage interest. The areas where people earn $150-300k are usually the areas with high state and local taxes, and where houses cost a lot.

      Those people didn't vote for him.

      I don't mind paying more tax, but the way it's not truly progressive seems obviously unfair. In the context of rising inequality, it seems like the new American aristocracy is drawing a line between two castes, and 300k is on the bad side of the line: the American Dream kinda-sorta works, but only up to 300k. It's the ceiling of what you can reach if you prioritise income by working hard and making smart choices about your career. Beyond that, you must be born into it.

    7. Re:Brilliant! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      As much as I don't like Trump or his tax reform plans, you're actually repeating false information. Removing mortgage interest is no longer in the plan.

      Even if mortgage interest isn't officially removed, it is effectively removed for the middle class by way of doubling the standard deduction and removing state taxes from the pool of itemized deductions. A married couple today has a standard deduction of $12,600. The mortgage interest deduction is only useful if it, along with other deductions on Schedule A, surpasses this amount. It is easy to do that today if you have a few thousand in state taxes and/or property taxes. But once those are removed from the picture, and you double the standard deduction to ~$25k, suddenly you need to buy a house over $850k for the mortgage interest deduction to have any effect on your tax liability.

      In other words, mortgage interest is removed for the middle class, but left in place for the rich.

    8. Re: Brilliant! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Trump is simultaneously for and against everything. The war, regime change, repeal and replace, repeal then replace, replacing.. Maybe the same day. Hes a Dem, he's a repub...

      The man is a psychopath by any clinical definition, albeit a cowardly one. He has no plan as the past seven months have shown.

    9. Re:Brilliant! by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      The mortgage interest deduction is only useful if you're living beyond your means.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    10. Re:Brilliant! by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      > As much as I don't like Trump or his tax reform plans, you're actually repeating false information. Removing mortgage interest is no longer in the plan.

      It doesn't matter either way. People living in high cost of living areas are far less likely to be home owners.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    11. Re: Brilliant! by PoopJuggler · · Score: 1

      He never had a plan. He never needed one, because he didn't want to be president to fix America's problems. He wanted to be president to make himself richer, that's all.

    12. Re: Brilliant! by Areyoukiddingme · · Score: 1

      He never had a plan. He never needed one, because he didn't want to be president to fix America's problems. He wanted to be president to make himself richer, that's all.

      Indeed, he never had a plan. Not because he wanted to be president to make himself richer, though. That only occurred to him after he got elected. He never had a plan because he never wanted to actually be president. He wanted to be a candidate for president.

      He absolutely loves being the candidate. People hold rallies just for him, people cheer any bullshit he says, Important People from Important Places get up and give flattering introductory speeches about him, and the news talks about nothing else but Trump, Trump, Trump. He adores that so much that he's already created his reelection committee and started holding campaign rallies! Just five months in to his first term! He's campaigning again because that's the only part he wanted. Actually getting elected was a total disaster for him. He did everything he could to avoid it. He said every outrageous thing he could think of, and it still didn't work.

      Trump didn't have a plan to govern because everybody knew he wasn't going to get elected, including himself. He even started laying the groundwork for his post-campaign talking points (election was rigged). Then he got elected and he discovered how much it truly sucks to be President of the United States. People expect him to govern now. He never wanted that. People expect him to lead the Republican Party, which he is completely incapable of doing, because unlike every career politician before him who pretended to be an outsider, Trump really is an outsider. New York is his stomping grounds, not D.C. He didn't know the first thing about D.C. and how it works, and the more he learns, the less he likes it. Now people expect him to read long, complicated policy documents, understand them, make administrative choices, and accept that at least 30% of the population is going to hate his choice no matter what it is. Trump doesn't even want to do Step One, which is why his daughter and son-in-law now have offices in the White House. Somebody has to do all that reading.

      The United States may end up with a shadow presidency by sheer accident, just because the President doesn't want to do the job, and never did.

    13. Re: Brilliant! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My goodness, you've just described at least the last two presidents and probably many more. Feel free to try again when you have a valid point.

    14. Re:Brilliant! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not an issue of double taxation. That happens all the time. It's a question of letting the high-tax states get the federal government via the taxpayers of the low-tax states to subsidize their high-spending ways on the backs of the taxpayers of the low-tax states.

    15. Re:Brilliant! by beelsebob · · Score: 1

      To be fair to said hi tax states, they're also the states that have the highest GDPs, and the highest tax takes. Trying to claim that the low-state-tax states are subsidising them is kinda crazy, when they contribute more to the tax pool than their population suggests they should.

    16. Re: Brilliant! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're saying Obama was in it for the money? You're dumb.

    17. Re:Brilliant! by Green+Mountain+Bot · · Score: 1

      Not to mention that they also tend to get fewer dollars back than they contribute to the treasury.

    18. Re:Brilliant! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      are you saying left leaning people like to live where they can pay high taxes?

  4. About time by Billly+Gates · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You all voted for conservative politicians in the States who ran on cut now pay later starting with Reagan and vodoo economics.

    Later is here! No it is not Obama's fault. It is yours and your parents. The banks need their money and it is not fair for the rest of us to pay higher taxes and no services for things like healthcare. Pay the piper man and in 30 years we can pay off the interest and $19,000,000,000,000!

    Oh and lets blame it on the liberals so you can keep your nice home? Well expect a dollar crash and Great Depression 2.0 as the value of the dollar is nothing because the credit built on a house of cards for tax cuts and spending increases comes crashing once bankers start demanding a return on their money.

    1. Re:About time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What is the narrative today, are Trump supporters dirt-poor inbred rednecks or wealthy and run the world?

    2. Re: About time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The supporters are dirt poor, but the winners are the the rich. They managed to convinced the plebs they were actually going to help them, and they drank it up.

    3. Re: About time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is a story about raising taxes on the wealthy. Which is the Democratic Party position. So in fact the 60 million "dirt poor" that voted for Trump would be helped.

      Do you see how your bullshit post just fell apart?

    4. Re:About time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Reagan used to send his budget over to the house in an ambulance, because he knew it was Dead On Arrival.

      Please stop blaming him for the 1980s budget. Democrats had full control of both houses. It was him, it was Tip O Neal, Teddy Kennedy, everyone.

    5. Re: About time by Billly+Gates · · Score: 3, Informative

      This is a story about raising taxes on the wealthy. Which is the Democratic Party position. So in fact the 60 million "dirt poor" that voted for Trump would be helped.

      Do you see how your bullshit post just fell apart?

      It is the Democratic position as a rich man only needs to buy how many toasters to boost the economy. You tax the poor folks and they stop spending which causes employers to cut jobs which then cuts from sales taxes.

    6. Re:About time by Opportunist · · Score: 4, Insightful

      In short: Yes.

      In a little longer, you accurately identified the two groups that are actually the biggest supporters. Redneck hicks who fell for the MAGA, and rich people who knew what to expect from the GOP.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    7. Re: About time by beelsebob · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No, this is a story about raising taxes on the middle class, and it's notably not a story about cutting them on the lower classes. It's a story about cutting them on the wealthy.

    8. Re:About time by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      You should ask two separate questions - one about his supporters, one about his controllers.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    9. Re:About time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exhibit A) Product of liberal public education, 'educated' in only the negative aspects of the 'teachers' biased opinion.

    10. Re: About time by mjwx · · Score: 1

      No, this is a story about raising taxes on the middle class,

      Are things so bad now in the US that an income of $150,000 is middle class. I mean I haven't checked the exchange rate since this morning but at the time US$150,000 was around £115,000. Over here you stop being middle class around £80,000.

      I'm middle income, middle class, if I earned £115,000, I'd have a house paid off within 5-8 years.

      Make no mistake, this is a tax on the wealthy, not the ultra rich like Trump, but those who have a very good income. This is emphatically not an attack on the middle or lower classes.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    11. Re: About time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, this is a story about raising taxes on the middle class, and it's notably not a story about cutting them on the lower classes. It's a story about cutting them on the wealthy.

      While Mr. Trump is a lying sack of shit, this kind of plan does fit him. Give those below a certain amount a modest tax break so they are fat dumb and happy. It won't cost that much. Give the real Americans such as him, you know the filthy rich ones that had multiple bankruptcies a huge tax break, because they need it, then tax the ones in the middle, since they probably can't yell loud enough to matter.

      Their health care reform never really seemed about reform. It was always, well, how many million will this plan cause to lose insurance. I think the lowest was what 15? They needed to break open some piggy bank to spread the money to the elite so it can trickle down in some golden showers..

      The one tax item I've heard, which may be related to this tax cut thing is to remove the state by state income tax deduction. Guess what that does. It predominantly helps red states over blue states. It's a blatant appeal not for fairness but to target people who don't vote for them. Income tends to flow out of blue states into red now as is. They want to make it worse.

    12. Re: About time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Meh, I'd (just) fall into that bracket between my wife and my income (we're both under 30 engineers). We are definitely comfortable, but we both drive economy cars (Hyundai and Mazda), and live in a 2000 ft^2 house. We certainly don't feel "wealthy".

    13. Re: About time by ranton · · Score: 1

      This is a story about raising taxes on the wealthy. Which is the Democratic Party position. So in fact the 60 million "dirt poor" that voted for Trump would be helped.

      Do you see how your bullshit post just fell apart?

      This is a story about raising taxes on the upper middle class to enable tax breaks for the wealthy. But the dirt poor are hurt the worst by Trump's policies since he is so keen on cutting programs which benefit them.

      --
      -- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
    14. Re: About time by asylumx · · Score: 1

      $150k for a household is likely considered upper middle class but it depends a bit on geography. The range starts lower than that, of course. That all said, most of us in the US making that income range live like we're middle class because, frankly, we all suck at managing our money here. We buy a lot of frivolous luxuries, experiences, & services that we obviously don't need, but all the others in our society do it too so if you don't, you feel out of place. Not a lot of folks manage to overcome that.

    15. Re: About time by beelsebob · · Score: 4, Informative

      Middle class isn't a function purely of wage in the US, since income, and cost of living varies wildly across the country.

      In the UK, someone earning £80,000 is pretty much going to be well off whether they're living in Dundee, or London - though they're going to be more well off in Dundee.

      In the US, someone earning $150,000 will be very well off if they live in Birmingham, but be pretty badly off if they live in the SF bay area (which is likely, because that's where all the jobs that pay $150-300k are).

    16. Re: About time by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      No, this appears to be a story about raising taxes on the upper middle class. The wealthy appear to get away without any significant tax increases.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    17. Re: About time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thy are stupid inbred people that are rich. They also hate normal people and want us to die for being smarter than them. They celebrate stupidity and ignorance.

    18. Re: About time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This. The rich people are so stupid because evolution doesn't work with their kind. They just buy their breaks while real humans have to learn and think. If we killed their kind the IQ of humanity would increase.

    19. Re:About time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The dirt poor got him elected, but he is funded by the ultra wealthy.

      To be fair, the ultra wealthy fund all major politicians.

    20. Re: About time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      $200k is middle class
      $300k is middle class

      Personally, I would put "wealthy" at $500k or more.

      As others have said, it definitely depends where you live.

      I definitely am not struggling, but I'm not living the good life either, not by a long shot.

    21. Re: About time by nitehawk214 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This is a tax on the wealthy that are not quite wealthy enough to buy politicians.

      --
      I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
    22. Re:About time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Apparently that did happen--but only once, in the second term (1986). That would be when Reagan was at this weakest: second term and the Iran-Contra scandal and all that.

      Generally, the Reagan White House got what it wanted from the budget process. The huge deficits were exactly what they wanted.

    23. Re:About time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You all voted for conservative politicians in the States who ran on cut now pay later starting with Reagan and vodoo economics.

      Later is here! No it is not Obama's fault. It is yours and your parents.

      I couldn't understand your post.
        - I make $200k/yr
        - I don't own a nice home. I share a flat in NYC with three other adults. I have enough saved for a down payment on a house, but not in NYC.
        - my parents usually, maybe never, vote conservative.
        - I've never voted conservative.
        - according to liberal Krugman, debt/GDP is the appropriate number, and it's falling. Conservatives focus on the absolute value of the national debt because it's an excuse to cut programs. Whose side are you on? What's the thesis again? I can't tell if it's internally consistent for you to worry about the absolute value of the debt.
        - Only a very tiny portion of the debt is owed to "banks and investment companies," so that also confused me. Owing foreigners, the actual case, is good because the disaster scenario is a default which would weaken our currency relative to theirs, which makes the debt easier to pay off and causes less inflation, but default is unlikely since debt/GDP is shrinking.

    24. Re: About time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe you aren't measuing the right aspects of your life to feel "weathy". It is not all about money. Do you have strong family connections and friends? Is your marriage happy and pleasant? Are you starting a family and enjoying the fact that you even can?

      Or are you sitting there broodying that you are richer and can't be like the Jones down the way? Someone else is always going to have it better then you no matter how hard you bust your butt.

      You may not feel weathy, but if both your wife and you are under 30 engineers, you have it quite good. Most of us aren't even capable of becoming engineers.

    25. Re: About time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So move across the border and shatter that YUGE electoral win. That's what will happen.

    26. Re: About time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Where I live, if I made $150,000 I could have a nice home on a couple acres of land paid off in just 2 years. Two more years and I could pay cash for a new Ferrari. So pardon me for not feeling any sympathy for those that are "barely scraping by" on over $150,000 a year.

    27. Re: About time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And how many 150k jobs are available where you live? Thats the difference. There is such a huge gap depending on where you live. Sure making 150k and being in most of the midwest and south you would be living easy. Its also much harder to come by those jobs AT THAT SAME SALARY. I.e. just do a search for senior software jobs. In nebraska it looks like they average at 90k, in colorado they average closer to 110-115, and in SF closer to 130-140. So you right there you have a 50k wage gap for the exact same job between nebraska and SF.

      Employers are well aware of differences in cost of living, but for some reason the average american and the tax structure cant seem to grasp that

    28. Re: About time by Areyoukiddingme · · Score: 2

      This is a tax on the wealthy that are not quite wealthy enough to buy politicians.

      That would be one of several major distinctions between being merely a little rich and being actually wealthy.

      Rich people own expensive shoes. Wealthy people own the company that sells expensive shoes (as a frickin' hobby).

      Rich people own expensive cars. Wealthy people own a controlling interest in the company that sells expensive cars.

      Rich people own expensive houses. Wealthy people own the expensive office space being leased by megacorporations.

      Rich people own iPhones encrusted in gold and diamonds. Wealthy people own substantial chunks of national economies.

      Rich people own expensive wives. Wealthy people own expensive politicians.

    29. Re:About time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      LOL expanding the welfare population has helped nation tremendously.
      Vastly expanding the number of illegals in America to is a big help.
      Obama never squandered a dime and Elvis never did no drugs.
      Obama never expanded the industrial spying industry and Elvis never did no drugs.

      You people are toddlers this 1 party can do no wrong and the other is straight from hell is silly and very childish WHY DO YOU WORSHIP POLITICIANS they are all dirty and you are a fool?

    30. Re:About time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The US has over $100 trillion in unfunded pensions and other liabilities. Tax hikes for everyone are on the horizon. State and local governments are the biggest offenders. Start reading about it here: https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-03-24/pension-crisis-too-big-for-markets-to-ignore

      Lets hope Calexit happens before those clods drag the rest of us down!

    31. Re:About time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not a conspiracy theorist by any means, but this info makes me speculate when, at some point, the PTB (or "shadow government" if you prefer) will decided that it's just more politic to release a bioweapon to take care of those liabilities rather than deal with the economic fallout...

    32. Re: About time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The places where you can earn $150,000/year as a nerd have houses that start $1,000,000+ and go up quickly from there. You are already giving up half your salary in taxes at that level, so it's not really a lot more income than $75,000, which is definitely not middle class in Silicon Valley. A 3-bedroom home (older, small), in a poor neighborhood has a lease rate of around $40,000/year, and for a family with kids is about the minimum that the Department of Education considers "housed". Below that point, they start counting you as homeless here (and it shows up in child stress and poor academic performance, so probably correct). If you're making $75,000, you just can't afford it yourself. At $150,000, it's taking half your available income, not the 25-30% recommended by most financial advisors. You'd need to be making $200K+ to be comfortably middle class in public schools in Silicon Valley, saving for retirement, and taking vacations and such. Throw in private schools on your own dime (not charity), and you'd better be $300k+. Palo Alto has subsidized housing for emergency professionals who make under $250K.

    33. Re: About time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, you believe in the Reagan myth? No, he got his ballooning military budget, his wasteful programs, and he helped launder money for oppressive violent and brutal regimes that he supported because they screamed the right anti-communist phrases.

      But hey, say it is true, then the GOP owns six years under Obama. Let them eat that cake.

    34. Re:About time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Where is the tax plan? It does NOT yet exist (yet). Trump can go on and on and on about what he wants, but it's congress that writes tax laws and they have been in session since last January.

    35. Re:About time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You forgot about people who have lost children that served in the US armed forces, dying senseless deaths in neverending imperialist wars around the world. As it turns out, those people are the ones who tipped the balance and put Trump in office.

      I imagine they can't be too thrilled with how things are turning out, but it's easy to forget just how much worse off the whole world would be with what the alternative was.

    36. Re: About time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Welcome to anti-Trumper logic. "GOD FUCKING DAMMIT, he wants high income earners to pay 13% more in taxes. HOW DARE HE lower taxes for rich people like that!"

      For those who need help with math, 44 is just under 13% higher than 39, hence it's a 13% tax increase because that's how much more income tax you'll be paying if you wind up being affected by this.

    37. Re: About time by wv5k · · Score: 1

      Exactly... Why, oh why do I not have any mod points today??

    38. Re:About time by ebvwfbw · · Score: 1

      Reaganomics worked and worked well. We saw a decrease in the middle class because they were promoted out out of it. The US saw the largest economic expansion the world had ever seen. It wasn't "trickle down", it was trickle everywhere. Everyone benefited from his policies. Obummer said he was a minor set back in their plan to destroy America.

      BTW, where did 9T go to under Obummer? https://www.youtube.com/watch?... So where's the liberal media? Why aren't they throwing a hissy fit? Just think about that a moment. 9 T Bucks. That's more debt than all the Presidents before Obama put together.

    39. Re: About time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is precisely the problem. $150k sounds like a lot of money to someone living in an area where you can buy a three-bedroom house for $100k. However, places where housing is that cheap have vanishingly few jobs that pay $150k. Most places with more than a handful of jobs in that range are in major metro areas, where a three-bedroom house costs easily $1M. Tellingly, these metro areas tend to vote overwhelmingly Democratic - which makes penalizing these families specifically very low-risk, politically. It's bullshit and there are few if any clearer cases of picking winners and losers based on pure politics.

    40. Re:About time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh yeah, it worked great--for the Reagan generation. Not so much for their grandchildren, on the hook for trillions in debt.

      Who wouldn't love a message like "hey, everybody! You CAN have it all! Increase spending AND reduce taxes at the same time! Just sign here..."

    41. Re: About time by PoopJuggler · · Score: 1

      No it's a tax on the middle class which benefits the rich because it keeps the poor enslaved by making it impossible for them to ever traverse the middle and reach the upper.

    42. Re: About time by cold+fjord · · Score: 1

      Have you ever been hired for a good job by a poor man? Gum up the works with regulation and taxes and jobs stop being created. Things moved that direction under Obama. Companies were failing faster than they were being created.

      The same thing happened due to regulations and taxes under Obamacare. Before Obamacare it was becoming more and more common for low wage jobs to include health insurance and other benefits. After Obamacare low wage jobs started being essentially cut in two - no more full time and benefits cuts, including no more health insurance.

      47% of the US population doesn't pay Federal income tax already.

      Notice anything about this graph? - Federal Receipts as Percent of Gross Domestic Product

      --
      much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
    43. Re: About time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > 47% of the US population doesn't pay Federal income tax already.

      Yeah, but that's only because they're old, or disabled, or the working poor and they don't have any fucking money.

      I think it's fair to only levy income tax on the people who have income, don't you?

    44. Re:About time by cold+fjord · · Score: 1

      Redneck hicks who fell for the MAGA, and rich people who knew what to expect from the GOP.

      Illegal immigration is down 64%. The wall he promised to build is getting initial funding. Military spending is on the way up. Many Obama regulations have already been killed. Conservative judge appointed to Supreme Court. Stock market and economy are on the way up. Move to come ....

      Looks like the Redneck hicks are getting what they wanted. Sucks to be you, I guess.

      --
      much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
    45. Re:About time by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Hey, I don't complain. I'm in Europe, all the things you list play into our hands.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    46. Re: About time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      fuck you. 150,000 is alot of money. im getting by on just under 40,000.
      get your head out of the clouds. My parents where middle class and my dad made around 80,000.

    47. Re: About time by MooseMiester · · Score: 1

      This is a piece of clickbait, because there is no TAX PLAN at all if you read the source it's based on nothing.

      --
      Murphy was an optimist
  5. Fake high salaries by monkeyxpress · · Score: 5, Interesting

    As a higher earner (well, when I'm not in startup mode), I don't actually have a problem with being taxed more - provided those that earn even more than me are not able to avoid the tax. The thing is, once you earn over about $100k, pretty much all your extra money is just going into bidding up the prices of a limited pool of assets such as housing. This doesn't benefit you or your fellow high earners, because if we can't build more, say, London housing when a rickety Victorian hovel costs over $1 million, then bidding up the prices to even more ridiculous levels isn't going to deal with the fundamental supply issue. All that happens is a parasite class forms around these things, consisting of speculators, gamblers and real estate agents. The same houses are still being traded between the same pool of high earners.

    If we had higher taxes, then it would help to curb speculation activity by preventing this form of asset inflation, and governments could use the money to redirect economic resources towards, say, actually creating new housing supply through transport infrastructure or training new engineers and doctors. Of course there is a big if there, because the government could also just use those resources to create more bureaucracy, but that is probably still better than real estate agents.

    The big problem, though, is that once you move into the 0.1% nobody is paying any taxes. I mean, the wealthy are even quite open about this - its not some sort of conspiracy. The problem then is that if you just tax the upper middle income earners more, all you do is allow the ultra rich to hoover up all the assets off them even faster than they are doing now. It is a one way road towards neo-feudalism.

    There is no easy solution. Probably a land tax would help, but that is almost impossible to achieve politically. France tried a wealth tax, and London is now stuffed full of rich French people. An aggressive death tax is probably the best solution, but again this is incredibly hard to achieve politically. Of course the natural solution is a revolution where the masses just confiscate everything. I really hope we can avoid this.

    1. Re:Fake high salaries by wolfheart111 · · Score: 0

      Fuck the Taxes and all that bullshit... Just grab our guns and take what we want from from you rich fucks... you know like in revolutionary France. :P

      --
      [($)]
    2. Re:Fake high salaries by wolfheart111 · · Score: 0

      Im Kidding.. you know Im kidding right... i thought it was funny. :)

      --
      [($)]
    3. Re:Fake high salaries by tinkerton · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I really hope we can avoid this.

      The current approach to avoiding this seems to be to install a huge surveillance system 'against terrorists'. Then, everyone who opposes the excessive concentration of wealth and power will become a terrorist. Done.

      I think taxing the rich can be done to some extent. There are two arguments against it that are not entirely sincere. One is that the rich will run away. That's partly true and partly a trick from people who would like you to believe that. Another is that there's a threat of 'if you're well off they're going to take your money away' to scare everyone who has a bit of money. Actually you can put the threshold very high.

      It's also about more than taxing the very rich. The very rich are getting richer. The mechanism is working in the other direction. Laws are made that accelerate this.

    4. Re:Fake high salaries by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The thing is, once you earn over about $100k, pretty much all your extra money is just going into bidding up the prices of a limited pool of assets such as housing.

      So, you're saying you spend $2,000-$3,000/month on housing? Because people making $20k/year who live in the same area couldn't afford a $1,700/month house even if they had no taxes, no need for food, etc. Sounds to me the issue is people who make $100k/year wanting a $200k/year house or really low travel times. Well, yes, you're going to pain through the nose for either.

      All that happens is a parasite class forms around these things, consisting of speculators, gamblers and real estate agents. The same houses are still being traded between the same pool of high earners.

      Regardless of whether you wish to call them speculators, gamblers, or parasites, clearly the supply issue is a real thing and simply building more houses isn't a solution because of my above comment. It's a simple property of logistics.

      If we had higher taxes, then it would help to curb speculation activity by preventing this form of asset inflation,

      In the same way giving all your blood to the blood bank would protect you from vampires. Yea, that's some extreme hyperbole, but it obviously misses the point.

      and governments could use the money to redirect economic resources towards, say, actually creating new housing supply through transport infrastructure or training new engineers and doctors.

      One, I agree we need more money spent on transport infrastructure--but that has more to do with a growing population in urban areas more than anything. Two, the issue isn't not having enough engineers and...doctors of all things; it's that pushing for more housing zoning intermixed with industrial/commercial leads to urban sprawl and does nothing of the issue of people who regularly change jobs--a fact of modern life--and dealing with housing. Or are you going to change houses in the same city every time you change jobs? Third,
        public transportation can help a lot but only if (1) it's heavily subsidized, (2) basically mandatory if you want shorter commutes (ie you have to intentionally starve road expansion), (3) you have to push a cultural shift that treats a car as a mode of freedom that needs to be experienced daily, and (4) you have to really push hard that the public transportation doesn't suck--ie putting forth strong rules about travel time guarantees, good customer service, and good pay (which goes back to (1)).

      Of course there is a big if there, because the government could also just use those resources to create more bureaucracy, but that is probably still better than real estate agents.

      No, it'd be worse. Real Estate Agents can at least provide some mechanism to locate extant vacant/vacating housing.

      There is no easy solution. Probably a land tax would help, ...

      No easy solution and we already have land taxes in most States. Speculators can just roll the land tax into a property, usually, because the pay-off is so massive and it's hard to get around that issue without putting forth a land tax that evicts most land owners, period. Honestly, Tokyo might be a good (and bad) example of how one can push heavy urbanization while still creating the inevitable problem that land, being the most limited resource in relationship to distance from work, is the most prevail problem and all the fixes you put in just create urban sprawl while not doing anything to fix the pricing issues.

      Or put simply: figure a way to get a $100k+/year job in rural America and expect to spend an average of 1 hour on the road. Good luck actually finding that $100k+/year job because it's the opposite of what you suggest: people get paid so much in urban areas to afford the high urban costs because so many people are fighting over so limited resources. You have to be quite special to get that sort of pay in rural America--maybe an engineer or a doctor.

    5. Re:Fake high salaries by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The easy solution is to eliminate the mortgage interest deduction or phase it out on homes over the median price for a county. Couple that with some kind of measures to block investment interest deductions on specific types of property (much trickier), and the speculation incentive starts to erode.

    6. Re: Fake high salaries by orlanz · · Score: 1

      Just grab your guns

      Sorry, I stopped reading there to go grab my guns. Came back to see what you wanted to do. Then saw your reply. It wasn't funny, it takes longer to put all these back! Grumble grumble....

    7. Re:Fake high salaries by Gussington · · Score: 2

      Fuck the Taxes and all that bullshit... Just grab our guns and take what we want from from you rich fucks...

      The problem is, and I know you're joking, but some people actually do think like this, is that the rich people have bigger guns.
      This 18th century idea that an armed militia can keep the government (or anything) under control is ridiculous in this day and age. Those countries with the most civilian empowerment tend to focus more on educating their people rather than arming them. Pen and sword etc...

    8. Re:Fake high salaries by maestroX · · Score: 1

      As a higher earner (well, when I'm not in startup mode), I don't actually have a problem with being taxed more - provided those that earn even more than me are not able to avoid the tax.

      Well geez, lower incomes did just that without reservations.

    9. Re:Fake high salaries by known_coward_69 · · Score: 1

      We have land taxes, they are called property taxes. You pay them to your state and local government and they fund lots of stuff including schools.

    10. Re:Fake high salaries by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      There is no easy solution.

      A relatively easy solution is to tax corporate income, rather than profit.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    11. Re:Fake high salaries by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have never understood this. I can't sell part of my property to pay my real estate taxes. When I retire, and my income drops dramatically, I am forced to sell my home (and go where?) because that's how I am expected to pay for someone else's child's high school education? This seems fundamentally unfair.

      Let the people who have kids pay for them, or make local taxes a percentage of income (or both), so at least I am not forced to live on the streets because of someone else's lifestyle choice (i.e., parenthood).

    12. Re:Fake high salaries by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The American Dream is to provide a better life for your family. Death taxes are directly against the dream. The last thing we need in the US is even more anti-family measures.

    13. Re:Fake high salaries by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All of what you've said seems correct, but the bigger impact seems to be letting companies off of their tax obligations.

    14. Re: Fake high salaries by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And that's the real problem: you have to change jobs every few years!

      If you fix that (I.e. go back to how it was before) you don't need highly concentrated city life with skyscrapers. My dad worked at exactly one company all his life. My parents bought a house 20 minutes from work. In a different city than where work was. There were farms and a highway in between the two. No need to move, no need to concentrate housing. And yes all the while he was getting promoted and got better salary all at the same company. No company and house and city hopping required. Average number of times people bought a house in that time: 1!

      Now I live in Canada. Average number of times people buy a house is something like 5...

    15. Re: Fake high salaries by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nice try bringing an irrelevant argument against the second amendment, but you failed. If militias with guns werent effective against an organized modern military, then why was neither the Soviet Union nor the United States ever able to achieve total victory in Afghanistan? Short of carpet bombing the entire surface area of an adversary with nuclear weapons (thereby rendering the land uninhabitable), boots on the ground is what will always win or lose a war. Go read a few history books some time instead of consuming everything the popular media feeds you without questioning it.

    16. Re:Fake high salaries by ranton · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I have never understood this. I can't sell part of my property to pay my real estate taxes. When I retire, and my income drops dramatically, I am forced to sell my home (and go where?) because that's how I am expected to pay for someone else's child's high school education? This seems fundamentally unfair.

      Let the people who have kids pay for them, or make local taxes a percentage of income (or both), so at least I am not forced to live on the streets because of someone else's lifestyle choice (i.e., parenthood).

      Having kids is not just a lifestyle choice. It is what creates the workforce which will keep growing your food, selling it to you, providing your health care, funding your social security, upholding the value of your personal investments, and so on as you age. The act of raising a child, whether your own or adopted, creates hundreds of thousands of dollars of human capital in our society (much more or less depending on the quality of parenting). You could save billions to fund your retirement, but without other people's kids that value would all evaporate. And in a modern economy, it is the kids in those pricey school districts who will be doing most of the heavy lifting (figuratively) in keeping the future economy running.

      Not everyone has to have children to keep the economy running, but someone does have to make that sacrifice. Complaining about doing your part to fund the creation of future generations is asinine.

      --
      -- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
    17. Re:Fake high salaries by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      If no one has kids, then no one is going to be looking after you in your fading years. I know this is tough for some people, but no kids, no society. So maybe you want to think twice before you demand to be let off the hook for "paying for other peoples' kids".

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    18. Re:Fake high salaries by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      For a society to maintain even just zero-growth population means on average every woman has to produce 2.1 children. Now maybe the coming age of AI and robots will alter that, but we're not there yet. Just look at Spain and Japan, two countries with negative demographic growth, and where falling populations literally are a demographic timebomb that is starting to go off.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    19. Re:Fake high salaries by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Rarely do the wealthy have "bigger guns". In some SA banana republic perhaps, but not in 18-th Century France or 20-th Century Russia ... and not in 21-st Century America. THEDONALDS republican voters could easily slap down and butcher-out a combo of rich jewbois, snowflake progressives, ISIS Obama-suckers, narcoMEX wetttbakkks and ghetto-banging nibber-addicts ... butcher them out in perhaps 2 years - - - 15,000,000 dead . Bleach-the-stain. Back to a straight white Christian constitutional republic. See ya in-da-street palsy and I'll wait behind ya ... hehehe.

    20. Re:Fake high salaries by Tenebrousedge · · Score: 1

      And if you were really cynical then you could view this as society valuing these things accurately: schoolchildren have a much better ROI. Old people are just waiting to die anyway, right? Gramps just needs to hurry along, and some good old fashioned poverty oughta clear that right up. Just don't kick the bucket before the healthcare system extracts as much wealth as possible from you/your family.

      --
      Those who advocate genocide deserve every protection afforded by law, and none afforded by common human decency.
    21. Re:Fake high salaries by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      If you want to fix something, don't eliminate the mortgage interest deduction (that actually encourages people to invest in their own assets), or increase the property tax rates (which are, effectively, land taxes). Rather, eliminate the capital gains exemption on primary properties. Right now, single filers get their first $250,000 in capital gains on sold primary properties ($500K for married filers) exempted from tax. We pay income tax on other forms of earnings from "savings" - but not on this. Make gains on sales of properties fully taxable like sales of stock, 401K gains (at time of withdrawal), etc. and you'll not only see additional revenue, you'll probably see quite a bit of cooling in the real estate speculation market.

      I know more than 1 person who buys and sells homes - and lives in them for 2 years at a shot - as a full-time gig. Find a neighborhood that is starting to gentrify, buy a decent home, put some paint on it (literally - that is all - no other remodeling), live in it for 2 years, then sell for a $150,000 increase in price. Tax-free way to make $75K/year - and you get to write off most of your housing expense as well since early in a mortgage 95% (or more) of the payment is interest, not principal.

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    22. Re: Fake high salaries by Ichijo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It might be politically easier to increase the standard deduction above what most people make. It would achieve much the same result as eliminating the mortgage interest deduction, and people won't complain about losing the deduction when they aren't paying taxes anyway.

      --
      Any sufficiently unpopular but cohesive argument is indistinguishable from trolling.
    23. Re: Fake high salaries by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nice try bringing an irrelevant argument against the second amendment, but you failed.

      Actually, he succeeded and your own own examples destroyed your rebuttal.

      If militias with guns werent effective against an organized modern military, then why was neither the Soviet Union nor the United States ever able to achieve total victory in Afghanistan?

      Because the Soviet Union's economy was faltering, and Gorbachev took over from Andropov, and didn't want any of that, plus the USA's massive contributions kept things boiling.

      In the case of America, it was Obama who took over, and he didn't want any of that either, he had a financial crisis to handle at home, and it was a stupid war.

      Short of carpet bombing the entire surface area of an adversary with nuclear weapons (thereby rendering the land uninhabitable),

      What, you think salting the earth was invented in the 20th Century?

      boots on the ground is what will always win or lose a war.

      And NEITHER country wanted to have boots on the ground any more. They took their marbles and went home. They weren't forced, they chose to bug out, because the people at home clamored for it. Not the Afghanis.

      Go read a few history books some time instead of consuming everything the popular media feeds you without questioning it.

      No, you need to read some real history books, and learn some serious lessons.

      Which was Gussinton's point, you need education, not a gun.

    24. Re:Fake high salaries by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Umm, there are a lot of poor people though. A lot. I have a gun and could get more quite easily if I started flaking on some of my credit debt or skipped a mortgage payment. No big deal there.

      A million people with small arms and hunting rifles, not to mention all the illegally modified weapons, in each major US city actively mad and engaging the US government would be a worst case scenario for said US government.

      Sure, they napalm, drones and missile strikes, but they haven't exactly sweep through the middle east, now have they? Also, you really think 100% of the military would stay with the US government? I think not. Many would defect and the looting of arms and destruction of infastructure on the way out would be huge.

      We don't want a revolution though. We can still save this mess. I think.

    25. Re: Fake high salaries by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Rofl, I think those infowar supplements are degrading your mentation. This, my friends and neighbors, is what you get when the red pill turns to ash in your mouth, the demented ramblings of a fascist nutbag who dreams of the fourth Reich. This is Trump's America, and it's quite sad.

    26. Re: Fake high salaries by SvnLyrBrto · · Score: 1

      Politics.

      For various political reasons, neither Russia not the US have brought their full military strength against any foe since 1945. For that matter, neither has anyone else. And no one really has any compelling interests in Afghanistan. As the other poster mentioned, it's just a nice, out of the way, place for the major powers to fight by proxy.

      But if the real powers were willing to go full-up WW2, with all of the savagery that entails... mass carpet bombing from formations including hundreds of aircraft, events like the fire-bombing of Dresden and Tokyo, the eastern front in the European theater, invading with literally hundreds of thousands of troops, and of course nuclear weapons... Well, Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan didn't just have "militias with guns". They had actual militaries on-par with the other major powers at the beginning of the war. They had navies, air forces, tanks, modern industry and, in the case of Germeny, better technology including the first jet aircraft, superior submarines, and rocketry. And they were both soundly defeated.

      That's the bottom line. No one has fully committed to fighting a real war since WW2. But if it ever does come to that, some hick masturbating about his AR-15 lower receiver whilest holed up in a barn or cave is going to wind up a whole lot of dead when a B-52 drops a few tons of high explosive on his head.

      --
      Imagine all the people...
    27. Re: Fake high salaries by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Of course there is a big if there, because the government could also just use those resources to create more bureaucracy, but that is probably still better than real estate agents."

      I love you. Also - fuck Realtors. Fuck them in their stupid realtor faces. Also also - real-tors, your job name has TWO syllables. It isn't real-a-tor. You don't deserve a third syllable. Really, you don't deserve *any*, but we have to call you something and polite society gets upset if it's just the ephitets you deserve all the time.

    28. Re:Fake high salaries by ewhenn · · Score: 1

      So your solution is to tax the low income and middle class even more? This will only hurt the economy. Consumer spending is the largest driver

      Generally speaking who has mortgages? The family making 70K/year or guy making 2M/year? If a bunch of normal households are paying taxes on that mortgage interest to the bank then they aren't spending it on goods/services. The bank just gets to hoover it up and pass it onto shareholders.

    29. Re:Fake high salaries by ewhenn · · Score: 1

      It's not paying for other people's children as much as it is *your* education. I'm assuming that when you were 8 that you weren't paying for your education when you were in school. That money to do so comes from somewhere. Yes, your parents probably paid school taxes, but not near enough to cover the actual cost. The median cost per student/year in a public school in the USA is around $13000, so approximately $156K for 12 years of education. My school taxes are $3000/year so it takes longer than 12 years to fund that cost per student. You essentially pay for your own education over the duration of your lifetime by paying school taxes.

    30. Re:Fake high salaries by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have never understood this. I can't sell part of my property to pay my real estate taxes. When I retire, and my income drops dramatically, I am forced to sell my home (and go where?) because that's how I am expected to pay for someone else's child's high school education? This seems fundamentally unfair.

      Let the people who have kids pay for them, or make local taxes a percentage of income (or both), so at least I am not forced to live on the streets because of someone else's lifestyle choice (i.e., parenthood).

      I'm fine with your being forced to live on the street if you're too stupid to move to a state that has tax policies that take into account the income problems facing retired people who own their home. And I'm also fine with your being forced to live on the streets if you're too stupid to save enough money to pay for your lifestyle in retirement .

      Where I live, our property assessments can be frozen so inflation isn't such a problem. For the remainder of my (expected) life plus 10 years, my rather nice house in Atlanta metro area will cost me about $125-150,000 in property taxes. I have that set aside already although I can easily afford that out of my social security and pension.

    31. Re:Fake high salaries by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have never understood this. I can't sell part of my property to pay my real estate taxes. When I retire, and my income drops dramatically, I am forced to sell my home (and go where?) because that's how I am expected to pay for someone else's child's high school education? This seems fundamentally unfair.

      Let the people who have kids pay for them, or make local taxes a percentage of income (or both), so at least I am not forced to live on the streets because of someone else's lifestyle choice (i.e., parenthood).

      I understand that I prefer to have sex with young people, so I'm on board with helping pay for future desirable sex partners.

    32. Re:Fake high salaries by dotts · · Score: 1

      Why don't those who don't mind paying extra taxes either a) voluntarily contribute more to the IRS on your annual return or b) don't take advantage of some deductions in order to pay more? This could help close the deficit gap and win/win for everyone.

    33. Re:Fake high salaries by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 1

      The guy making $2MM per year is using the mortgage interest deduction on his $10MM home and leveraging his cash in other investments. That is how you get (really) rich.

      This is why the system is broken; people see their own $1k deduction and protect it illogically when it is being used by others for a $1MM deduction.

    34. Re:Fake high salaries by Gussington · · Score: 1

      Rarely do the wealthy have "bigger guns".

      Who do you think controls the police and military?

    35. Re:Fake high salaries by Gussington · · Score: 1

      Umm, there are a lot of poor people though. A lot. I have a gun and could get more quite easily if I started flaking on some of my credit debt or skipped a mortgage payment. No big deal there.

      A million people with small arms and hunting rifles, not to mention all the illegally modified weapons, in each major US city actively mad and engaging the US government would be a worst case scenario for said US government.

      If such a scenario eventuated most 'militia' would end up killing each other before getting anywhere near a government facility. An organised force with a strategy will beat a disorganised rabble every time, it's why most criminals end up in jail and even riots tend not to last more than a few days.
      This is not the 18th century (or a b grade action movie) anymore that stuff would simply not work in this day and age.

    36. Re:Fake high salaries by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But... but... muh bootstraps!

    37. Re:Fake high salaries by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not paying for other people's children as much as it is *your* education. I'm assuming that when you were 8 that you weren't paying for your education when you were in school. That money to do so comes from somewhere. Yes, your parents probably paid school taxes, but not near enough to cover the actual cost. The median cost per student/year in a public school in the USA is around $13000, so approximately $156K for 12 years of education. My school taxes are $3000/year so it takes longer than 12 years to fund that cost per student. You essentially pay for your own education over the duration of your lifetime by paying school taxes.

      Very good, thank you this.

    38. Re:Fake high salaries by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Also need to remove the cap on FICA. We all know Social Security and Medicare are welfare systems and nothing resembling a retirement plan based on investments.

    39. Re:Fake high salaries by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't forget the fact that the O.P. is paying back THEIR education, which they seemed to get nothing from, not paying FOR someone else kid.

  6. Draining the middle class, nothing new. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The rich don't have income, they have capital gains. The rich also never learn. This will end badly. Very badly.

    1. Re:Draining the middle class, nothing new. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Go fuck yourself. If your income equals the median cost of a house, you're fucking rich.

    2. Re:Draining the middle class, nothing new. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In any uprising more poor people than rich people dies.
      The rich people all have money offshore.
      All they have to do is to not appear to be the worst and they will have time to get away.

    3. Re:Draining the middle class, nothing new. by beelsebob · · Score: 1

      Most of the people earning $150-300k will be living in a place like the SF bay area (because that's where the work that pays that much is), where their income is 12.5-25% of the median cost of a home.

    4. Re:Draining the middle class, nothing new. by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      The rich do pay capital gains taxes. Short term capital gains are taxed as regular income. Long term capital gains are still taxed once you make more than $40K per year. And the long term capital gains tax rate starts at a rate equivalent to the average tax rate of the top 50% - surprisingly close to where that $40K income would put you...

      The rich do pay taxes on capital gains, but I understand it makes GREAT political theater to claim otherwise! It's great to ignore $716 billion in capital gains taxes paid in 2014 alone, considering it is about 25% of all tax revenues to the Federal Government. But keep on ranting against "the man" and his zero tax capital gains!

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    5. Re:Draining the middle class, nothing new. by Beezlebub33 · · Score: 4, Informative

      The rich do pay capital gains taxes. Short term capital gains are taxed as regular income. Long term capital gains are still taxed once you make more than $40K per year. And the long term capital gains tax rate starts at a rate equivalent to the average tax rate of the top 50% - surprisingly close to where that $40K income would put you...

      Income is at (about) 40%, long term capital gains is %20, right? That's a huge break for people who have enough capital to live on the capital gains. Nobody thinks capital gains are not taxed at all, but that the relative rates favor the very wealthy.

      --
      The more people I meet, the better I like my dog.
    6. Re:Draining the middle class, nothing new. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      $150,000 is on the high end of middle class. If you make $300,000 a year and you're complaining, you need to rethink your priorities or move.

    7. Re:Draining the middle class, nothing new. by rbrander · · Score: 1

      But while home *buying* prices have exploded, the rent costs are pretty much sticking to inflation. You don't HAVE to bet your future on that particular investment.

    8. Re:Draining the middle class, nothing new. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Income's not at 40%. Incremental income over $400,000 is at 39.5%. Typical average actual rate is 20-25%, so long term cap gains are in alignment with that.

    9. Re:Draining the middle class, nothing new. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I personally don't think that the median rent of SF (Jan 2017) being $4300 for a 1 bedroom apartment, is "sticking to inflation".
      Particularly as rent in SF was at a median of $2300 in Jan 2010.
      So, 6 years, 200% increase.

    10. Re:Draining the middle class, nothing new. by Waccoon · · Score: 1

      The rich also never learn

      Look at the last election results. It's the Average Joes that never learn.

    11. Re:Draining the middle class, nothing new. by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      Marginal tax rate on income above $418,000 is 39.6%. All income before that is taxed at lower rates. Take a look at the actual tax return summary data for the US and you'll see the top 5% earn above $188,000 and average 23.6% income taxes. The top 1% pay about a 27% income tax rate - far below the marginal 39.6%. That's because the income tax rate is progressive, and the top marginal tax rate only kicks in for the portion of income that is above $418,000.

      And this is only for long-term capital gains (meaning the asset was held for a minimum of 1 year); for short term capital gains, it is treated strictly as regular income. That's why, when you exercise your stock options and sell on the same day, they are considered short term capital gains. Even if you were granted the options years ago, you did not actually own the asset (the stock) until you exercised the option - and if you sell that within 1 year of exercising, then it's short-term capital gains. Meaning: it's plain, ordinary income.

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    12. Re:Draining the middle class, nothing new. by dotts · · Score: 1

      You liberals live in a bubble. The ultra rich live off of investments yes, but the top 10, 5, and 1 percentage income earners pay the way for everyone else. https://www.cbo.gov/publicatio...

    13. Re:Draining the middle class, nothing new. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They pay to maintain a system that is clearly benefitting them more than anybody else, and then proceed to constantly bitch about it. Then they bitch about all of the people who are propping up their lifestyle and whose labor they're exploiting. Very sympathetic bunch.

    14. Re:Draining the middle class, nothing new. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In theory yes, in practice no.

      i.e. how much did Donald's little empire drag in, how much tax did he pay on it ?.

      He's refused to divulge that, but it's obviously a lot less than his fair share. So no this isn't a tax on the rich because the rich simply do not pay tax at all.

    15. Re:Draining the middle class, nothing new. by bhiestand · · Score: 1

      But while home *buying* prices have exploded, the rent costs are pretty much sticking to inflation. You don't HAVE to bet your future on that particular investment.

      What the hell are you talking about? Junior one-bedroom apartments go for $3500/month on average in SF.

      --
      SWM seeks new sig for a brief fling
    16. Re:Draining the middle class, nothing new. by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      the top 10, 5, and 1 percentage income earners pay the way for everyone else.

      If that were the case, you wouldn't have millionaires, much less billionaires. Almost all economic gains have gone to the top percentage points of the population. This is old news, so why are you bothering trying to bullshit anyone?

    17. Re:Draining the middle class, nothing new. by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      Most of the people earning $150-300k will be living in a place like the SF bay area (because that's where the work that pays that much is), where their income is 12.5-25% of the median cost of a home

      Which is still 50-100% over median income, so don't hold your break on waiting for people to cry you a river.

    18. Re:Draining the middle class, nothing new. by NewYork · · Score: 1

      Buffett's secretary Bosanek pays a tax rate of 35.8 percent of income, while Buffett pays a rate at 17.4 percent on profit. http://news.yahoo.com/warren-b...

    19. Re:Draining the middle class, nothing new. by beelsebob · · Score: 1

      50-100% above median income hardly makes someone rich. In fact, it pretty much exactly makes them middle class. In the US, 53% of the population is lower or working class. So that median income is below the boundary for middle class.

    20. Re:Draining the middle class, nothing new. by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      It pretty much makes them bourgeois, which may be as insufferable and as much an enemy of the poor as rich capitalists. 50% over median income puts them over what, eighty percent of the population? Yeah, they may be stuck with high rent, a shitty job and student loans, but still better off than the people living in their cars or couch surfing, who may not be receptive to the bourgeois sob story.

  7. Iâ(TM)ve Got An Idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hereâ(TM)s an idea. How about a system of no more than 3 - 4 tax brackets where every single person who earns income regardless of how they earn it pays the same rate as everybody else? Letâ(TM)s start there. It wonâ(TM)t happen because Republicans see that as âoepunishing job creatorsâ. Lol ...

    God forbid a multimillionaire pays the same tax rate as a somebody working 40 hours a week.

    1. Re:Iâ(TM)ve Got An Idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's what we already have. The problem is that once you reach a certain level of wealth/income you're both able and incentivised to reclassify your "income" as something else. The easiest way is to incorporate yourself as a business then "pay" yourself a pittance of the salary while the business gets all the income, buys all your expensive stuff then "leases" it to you for one dollar a year.

      Normal people can't afford accountants to help them play this game.

    2. Re:Iâ(TM)ve Got An Idea by beelsebob · · Score: 1

      No it's not - if you earn income through capital gains, you get taxed at 15%. If you earn income through employment you get taxed at (up to) 35%.

    3. Re:Iâ(TM)ve Got An Idea by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      Actually, capital gains tax reaches 20%, which is close to the average tax rate paid by the top 5% on all their income.

      And the GP AC is also pimping a way that will DEFINITELY draw the attention of the IRS (a house from your corporation will be considered as material payment, and should be considered income - even if your corporation owns it, unless you can prove that it is used strictly for business purposes by anyone associated with the business) and land you in "Federal PMITA Prison".

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    4. Re:Iâ(TM)ve Got An Idea by HeckRuler · · Score: 1

      Duh, which is why you have an accountant set it up in a way that isn't so obvious and remains perfectly legal. At least as far as your lawyer can convince a judge.

      There's just no way that you can make people pay the "True Market Value" for everything and disallow any sort of 2 for 1 deal, or a bundle deal, or teaser rate. Not without a centrally controlled economy that breaks capitalism. And that doesn't work. As long as those sort of deals are viable marketing strategies, then a business is going to be able to give things to people for practically free. If businesses can do that, then the owners of said business will be able to funnel money pretty much wherever they want.

      a house from your corporation

      Ok, it's a house from my buddy's corporation. And I just happen to employ his nephew. But that's OLD hat sort of collusion. Now it's more like a tax write-off donation to a friends's wife's non-profit which pays it's CEOs whatever it feels like.

      and land you in "Federal PMITA Prison".

      No, they simply send you a bill. We caught you dodging X amount of taxes, pay X + Y in fines. If they didn't catch you dodging Z, and Z>Y, then you're net positive. They only send people to prison when they can't pay it back.

    5. Re:Iâ(TM)ve Got An Idea by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      Go ahead. Give it a shot. See what happens. You'll get slapped with back taxes and plenty of penalties. Enjoy!

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    6. Re:Iâ(TM)ve Got An Idea by HeckRuler · · Score: 1

      if they didn't catch you dodging Z, and Z>Y, then you're net positive.

      You'll never be rich enough to afford those type of accountants if you don't read the memos all the way to the bottom kiddo.

    7. Re:Iâ(TM)ve Got An Idea by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      No I read it. And having used LEGAL means of sheltering income, and being audited nearly yearly because of it, your supposition about not getting caught is wrong. You will get caught. Then it's a matter of dealing with the results...

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    8. Re:Iâ(TM)ve Got An Idea by HeckRuler · · Score: 1

      Got it.

      "and remains perfectly legal. At least as far as your lawyer can convince a judge."

      So what exactly are you doing to dodge taxes that gets you audited yearly?

    9. Re:Iâ(TM)ve Got An Idea by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      Not dodging anything - dodging is illegal, sheltering is not. Legally sheltering income and splits of salary and bonus income. Earn enough, and have a "complicated" enough 1040 (several K-1s and quite a few holdings) and you draw their attention. Most people with more complicated financial situations and corporate ownerships tend to get audited quite often.

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    10. Re:Iâ(TM)ve Got An Idea by HeckRuler · · Score: 1

      right right, you didn't murder him, he just ran into your knife.

      So, what do you do to "Shelter" your money from taxes? I'm honestly curious. What makes your "complicated".

  8. SOLUTION by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Anyone with TOTAL worth at 1 BILLION or more is to be subject to TOTAL forfeiture of all worth, and is to be exported to RUSSIA where they belong.

    Next year, same but anyone with TOTAL worth at 500 MILLION or more.

    1. Re:SOLUTION by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Anyone with TOTAL worth at 1 BILLION or more is to be subject to TOTAL forfeiture of all worth, and is to be exported to RUSSIA where they belong.

      Next year, same but anyone with TOTAL worth at 500 MILLION or more.

      Ah, so Trump's safe then. No surprises there.

  9. Yuo have to pay high taxes for big government by Wizardess · · Score: 0, Troll

    So you wanted big government, Bunky. What makes you think it comes for free? Where do you think most of the taxable resources exist? Visit IRS.GOV and hunt around. The answer will annoy you no end, especially with the highly artificial definition of "poor" that we live with. (Where else in the world do officially poor people have AC, a car, a cell phone, and big screen TVs as a matter of course?)

    Given that you and I are the income targets for modest tax increases that can greatly increase the tax revenues maybe it is time to rethink this overwhelming drive we seem to have for ever bigger government - especially since we are paying for so much government and the most expensive portions of it cannot do their jobs. ObamaCare is a failing farce. The Department of Energy, charged with making the US independent of foreign oil, has not managed to do this in its entire time in existence. And so forth.

    If you do not want to pay as much in taxes then get down and dirty working to make our government smaller. Maybe create a bounty program for our legislators. They personally get checks for 10% of every cut in the size of government in lieu of their salaries. Think out of the box. Think small government.

    {^_^}

    1. Re:Yuo have to pay high taxes for big government by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You are obviously not poor and still fit and well.

      It is easy to complain about taxes until one day, maybe, when you need it. Then you learn that it is morally just for people to pay taxes to help others.

      Here in Australia we pay what you would call high taxes. The society seems to accept paying taxes as it has value. We have free health care and a safety net for those who need help whether they are old or handicapped you name it. Not perfect, but it gets tweaked over time.

      It is possible to have a very good standard of living with 'high' taxes.

      At > $150k you are living a good life. Good for you, but care for others.

    2. Re:Yuo have to pay high taxes for big government by Billly+Gates · · Score: 1

      Nope. I want big government and NO TAXES. I will blame the liberals and listen to Fox News, Drudgereport, Sean Hannity, so I do not have to take responsibility.

    3. Re:Yuo have to pay high taxes for big government by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Just watching Fox news doesn't make you any more stupid that watching no news at all, oh wait, it does:

      http://www.businessinsider.com/study-watching-fox-news-makes-you-less-informed-than-watching-no-news-at-all-2012-5?r=US&IR=T&IR=T

    4. Re:Yuo have to pay high taxes for big government by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      So you get to decide what is morally right and force your views...interesting indeed.

    5. Re:Yuo have to pay high taxes for big government by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "Small government" is just rule by the rich. We've tried that already. In fact, it's the thing we've spent most of human history trying. It's a terrible system for everybody except the few people at the very top. Honestly, I don't think there's anything less "out of the box" than "let's let all the rich people make the rules and not try to constrain them in any way". Why is it that no conservatives have any working knowledge of history?

      The vast majority of people would benefit from a larger government funded by higher tax rates. The rich fight this tooth and nail because they think it will be worse for them and they do not care at all whether it's better for everybody else, which is just selfish and evil, but the most important part is that it's not even true. A society in which public infrastructure is more effective and plentiful benefits EVERYBODY, including the people paying for the largest portion of it. It's incredibly obvious, but selfishness has a powerful ability to blind, it seems.

    6. Re:Yuo have to pay high taxes for big government by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are attributing motive based on your personal anger towards people with money. I suggest you re-evaluate why you are so resentful of people who have more than you.

    7. Re:Yuo have to pay high taxes for big government by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      So you get to decide what is morally right and force your views...interesting indeed.

      That is a very concise explanation of laws.

      Either way I've seen what happens when poor Americans get ill.
      Since they can't afford healthcare they have to rely on handouts.

      In that situation there are two kind of people. Good ones that cares for others and that pays up a small sum so no-one has to die, and then there are people that keeps their money to themselves.

      So, the choice is between a society where:
      1) people dies in the street.
      2) good people have to pay for everyone healthcare and uncaring people can keep their money.
      3) everyone is taxed so that people don't have to die and good people don't have to pay for everything themselves.

      You may not like paying taxes but you are defending a situation that benefits psychopaths more than anyone else.

    8. Re: Yuo have to pay high taxes for big government by orlanz · · Score: 3, Informative

      You forgot to mention the set of people who don't have HC will go to the Emergency room. ERs have to help people who have a immediate life threatening condition. So this very expensive service is passed onto that one hospital's customer base. But normally because the condition is so far along, the results are poor and people still die.

      Those with a future appt with death can't use ERs and need to rely on charity. Which also has really poor results because again they can't do preventative, ongoing, and stable treatments in that financial situation.

    9. Re:Yuo have to pay high taxes for big government by hord · · Score: 1

      How? We have the largest governments the world has ever produced in terms of number of people, per capita, number of lines of laws, etc. None of it is working. You think making it bigger is the solution? Big or small, people with the will to do violence win. The rich are the benefactors of this and cower behind them. It's all over the history books and you can see it everywhere today.

    10. Re: Yuo have to pay high taxes for big government by orlanz · · Score: 1

      How did you talk about small government and not talk about the biggest expenditures?

      (2015)- Social Security benefits make up 20%. Followed by Military, Medicare, Unemployment, and other HC at ~15% each. 6% is net interest on debt. 5% is Vet benefits. The remaining ~25% is everything else.

      Of the top 5, only Miliary is reviewed and set every year. I agree these is a lot to cut here. At the very least stop jumping into decades long wars. The rest are earned promises in the past. So what promises do you want to break to those who already paid in?

    11. Re:Yuo have to pay high taxes for big government by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are obviously not poor and still fit and well.

      It is easy to complain about taxes until one day, maybe, when you need it. Then you learn that it is morally just for people to pay taxes to help others.

      Here in Australia we pay what you would call high taxes. The society seems to accept paying taxes as it has value. We have free health care and a safety net for those who need help whether they are old or handicapped you name it. Not perfect, but it gets tweaked over time.

      It is possible to have a very good standard of living with 'high' taxes.

      At > $150k you are living a good life. Good for you, but care for others.

      My decision to care for others should be my choice and not enforced at the end of a gun through higher taxation. Its always easy virtue signal when you are using other peoples money to do it.

    12. Re:Yuo have to pay high taxes for big government by Hognoxious · · Score: 2

      My decision to care for others should be my choice and not enforced at the end of a gun through higher taxation.

      If the law says that's how it is and you want to live in a developed country then sorry, but that's how it works. Otherwise nobody pays for anything and it all turns to shit.

      Perhaps Somalia would be more to your liking?

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    13. Re:Yuo have to pay high taxes for big government by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When a big 4K TV can be had for $300, a cell phone for $40 + $30/month, a used car could be a $500 clunker, and air conditioning has been a standard feature of every U.S. housing unit in existence (unless you live close enough to the Canadian border) for many decades, yet even in a rural area it's difficult to find rent below $600/month on anything, you can't use those as criteria for deciding that someone isn't "poor enough." This mentality that you have to be homeless with zero money or assets before you're worth helping is extremely dangerous. Once someone falls off of the fiscal cliff of poverty (generally by being evicted for non-payment of rent) they become a costly burden to society. It's cheaper to help people stay afloat despite their bad decisions than it is to ignore them and let them become destitute. Then again, some people will not come to realize this until it gets as bad as some parts of San Francisco, where human feces and needles are all over the street, homeless people take sidewalk shits in broad daylight, personal property crimes are fairly common, and tent cities spring up next to "nice" neighborhoods.

    14. Re: Yuo have to pay high taxes for big government by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You forgot to mention the set of people who don't have HC will go to the Emergency room. ERs have to help people who have a immediate life threatening condition.

      Not really. That is part of "big state".
      Without regulation they wouldn't have to treat those people.

    15. Re:Yuo have to pay high taxes for big government by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > My decision to care for others should be my choice and not enforced at the end of a gun through higher taxation. Its always easy virtue signal when you are using other peoples money to do it.

      Oh, boo hoo. Do you have the same attitude towards paying for military and coast guard protection, judicial system, education, emergency services, and roads that everybody uses one way or another? Taxes are for services rendered. It can all be privatized and billed to you (e.g., phone or network connectivity) or it can be socialized (e.g., military and police). There are sometimes good reasons for the former, sometimes good reasons for the latter. We choose. But either way society has this peculiar way to pay for services that everybody uses, one way or another, or those services don't happen. We could decide not to have a military or emergency services and each hire private security for it all instead, but for some reason that consensus has not developed for most people. Instead we pay taxes for it and run it via the government.

      If society can't bring itself to properly let the free market decide to leave people unable to pay on the street to die like they should of treatable illnesses because they "aren't my problem", then you *are* paying one way or another. If not via taxes, then via the higher price you pay every time you go to the doctor or the hospital and they've treated someone "for free". They just increase the prices you pay them to make up the difference.

      So, enjoy your freedom to pay more, because the only way you'll pay less is if you convince doctors and hospitals to not give a damn if people are dying on their doorstep. They're going to call up the same sort of gunmen to collect on their bills as would be the case if you don't pay your taxes. Whether it's a private or public gunman that shows up and tries to compell you to pay won't change the math part of the equation. The only thing that will plausibly lower the cost would be if people are screened and able to seek treatment earlier rather than only when it turns into a major health crisis.

    16. Re:Yuo have to pay high taxes for big government by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      > None of it is working.

      How can you seriously say that compared to the plight of average people in the early 20th century or 19th century, let alone even earlier? It's imperfect, but things are distinctly better.

      There's good grounds for being concerned about pathologically bloated and/or tyrannical governments, but the correlation with overall size of government is overblown. You can have efficient, competent governments that are a pretty decent size that aren't ultimately tyrranical. You'll still get people bellyaching about their "freedom" to impose their will on others being restricted, and that they can't take advantage of people like they used to in the "good old days" of unsafe work conditions or bare subsistence wages, but so what? If the people at the top want that kind of "freedom", screw that. That's not "government overregulation" getting in the way, that's government doing its job for the people. If government becomes an obstacle to ordinary people fulfilling their lives, then if it is a democratic government we have the means to change it until the right balance is achieved. It will lead to some kind of balance between ever-expanding and costly government and a government so small it can't properly do its job anymore.

      Making the case that "none of it is working" despite government being on average pretty big compared to history is a phony argument in my opinion because overall an average worker from 100 years ago has far greater control over and protection of their lives now than they did then. I'm reluctant to make government even bigger, because it costs all of us, but I see little evidence it needs to be radically smaller either, or that we would definitely benefit from such a change. What I expect is a result that would roll things back to the early 20th-century absuses of the workforce that people used to experience all the time. They didn't call them "robber barons" for nothing.

    17. Re:Yuo have to pay high taxes for big government by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You don't need a big government to fix problems with the rich taking over the countrty when it has a small government. For example, I'm all for nationally capping salaries at an inflation-adjusted $250k a year. Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos have an obscene net worth and arguably, both of them have significantly inhibited the market during their tenure. SAP and Oracle, those are two more. Cap their income, that puts a stop to the technological imperialism. Worked great in the post-war era to ensure people made a respectable income.

      [I]If government becomes an obstacle to ordinary people fulfilling their lives, then if it is a democratic government we have the means to change it until the right balance is achieved.[/I]

      That works right up until the government allows foreigners to invade..er..immigrate to your country in sufficent numbers to crash the social safety nets and labor markets for several generations.

      Right now we have a government that consumes about 25% of GDP, and the majority of the wealth is owned by the top 1%. Entire markets are turning into literal government-approved oligopolies; media, agriculture, mining, metals, internet. Your ability to do basic things like choose the K-12 academic institutions for your kids so your family can get out of being in a poverty trap is gone due to housing costs being driven up by "TBTF" Banks and a national teachers union tieing their pay rates, of which their members largely make 90th percentile or higher incomes, to housing taxes. A Loan program meant to make college accessible to the underprivelaged has become a monstrosity that forces even the middle class's kids into debt to get an education so they have the chance of not falling into a poverty trap making $12 an hour. Laws meant to help the underprivelaged get medical care has grown into a monstrosity that consumes 19% of our GDP that has consumed employee's raises on medical insurance expense for the last 2 decades.

      Studies have been done this is affecting when and if people have families. We get government freaking out in GAO retirement security reports over a net negative fertility rate and it's affect on a fractional reserve lending system. BTW, that one means the rich have to decide who isn't going to be rich anymore, which they'd rather not do. So what's their solution? Invite foregners in! That'll save us. And then we get this massive media oligopoly campaign to create this concept of political correctness, which is really just another religion. [i]Tolerate[/i] all of these new suckers...er...[i][b]different[/i][/b] people coming in, we need more [/i]diversity[/i]. What they really need is fresh blood to work twice as hard for half as much to keep the scam going.

    18. Re:Yuo have to pay high taxes for big government by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nice correlation.

    19. Re:Yuo have to pay high taxes for big government by hey! · · Score: 1

      In some ways what we're dealing with here is a lack of clarity -- at least among the mass of voters.

      Health care spending in the US has increased faster than inflation every year since around 1960, but think about how different medicine was in 1960. In 1960 there were no MRIs or CAT scans. Chemotherapy for cancer was experimental. Heart valve replacement wasn't an option, nor was hip or knee replacement. There was no Viagra, no statins for high blood pressure, very little that could be done about diabetes. The famous catch phrase was "take two aspirin and call me in the morning", because a lot of medicine amounted to keeping a patient comfortable and hoping he'd get better on his own.

      So it's no surprise we're paying more: we're getting more. And if someone who has no health care coverage comes into a hospital sick, we will use that full armamentarium of cures on them because we want our hospitals to value life above profit. But when a patient goes medically bankrupt, somebody still has to pay, and that somebody is everyone.

      Under the circumstances there is only one way to spend less: use less. And since we don't want to stop treating sick indigent people, what we have to do is keep everyone healthier: manage chronic conditions like diabetes, high blood pressure and obesity, and detect diseases like cancer early, before heroic measures are called for.

      Our failure to keep people healthy is why other countries that spend far less than us, and have less technology than us, have better healthcare outcomes. Once you're very sick, the US is a great place to be treated; but it's not so great if you don't want to get sick in the first place.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    20. Re:Yuo have to pay high taxes for big government by martyros · · Score: 1

      2) good people have to pay for everyone healthcare and uncaring people can keep their money.

      You missed an important point: Even those uncaring people benefit from the people around them being healthy. Helping people not to die in the streets isn't just entertainment for good people that has no benefit whatsoever for uncaring people; it benefits uncaring people too. It is a non-excludable good, like national defense or clean air.

      --

      TCP: Why the Internet is full of SYN.

    21. Re:Yuo have to pay high taxes for big government by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah. Murder is bad. It's illegal. If you break that law, we use force to put you where bad people go.

      You could call that morals I guess, but's more like "This shit here is good for society, so we're enforcing it. With laws and stuff". It's sure as hell not perfect. Bunch of people thought that smoking weed or drinking booze were bad for society. And to an extent, some aspects of that really are. But making them illegal turned out to be a lot worse for society. Lessons like that take a long time to learn. And we don't WANT laws changing fast and loose.

      Anyway, if you want a "small government" stop pissing away so much money on the military.

    22. Re:Yuo have to pay high taxes for big government by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A CT scan, for someone uninsured is $90 (USD) in Japan.
      Why is the same thing in the US billed at $3000+ ?

    23. Re:Yuo have to pay high taxes for big government by HeckRuler · · Score: 1

      How what?

      None of [government] is working.

      OH NOES! I hate that Canada has invaded and we're suffering under foreign rule. That Mexican cartels regularly have raids into texas for slaves. That all our water is poisoned and tainted. That the farmers regularly mix water and lye to the milk to save a buck. That every time I drive from one city to another state all the rules of the road completely change and I have to learn to drive on the left side. That when roving gangs kill my children, I have no recourse other than vigilante justice. That there's just no way for me to send a message to another person farther than I can shout. If only we could get away from this terrible bartering system, there MUST be something better. And just the other day the pfizer megacorp injected my kids with experimental drugs as a case study. If they die I really wish I could at least sue them like those classy fellows over in Nigeria. And I need those kids so I can send them down into the coal mine and make some income because I've already been laid low by the black lung. Too bad we only get paid in company script.

      Big or small, people with the will to do violence win.

      Try me. I'll call the cops. You'll go to jail. YAY rule of law. I'm not even that rich.

    24. Re:Yuo have to pay high taxes for big government by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      "Small government" is just rule by the rich. We've tried that already. In fact, it's the thing we've spent most of human history trying. It's a terrible system for everybody except the few people at the very top. Honestly, I don't think there's anything less "out of the box" than "let's let all the rich people make the rules and not try to constrain them in any way". Why is it that no conservatives have any working knowledge of history?

      The vast majority of people would benefit from a larger government funded by higher tax rates. The rich fight this tooth and nail because they think it will be worse for them and they do not care at all whether it's better for everybody else, which is just selfish and evil, but the most important part is that it's not even true. A society in which public infrastructure is more effective and plentiful benefits EVERYBODY, including the people paying for the largest portion of it. It's incredibly obvious, but selfishness has a powerful ability to blind, it seems.

      Republicans are always bleating out that line "I am for smaller government!" Yet no one ever brings up the fact that smaller government basically means more power in the hands of fewer people. Sorry but the current administration is more power-hungry and more of an avoider of the rules of society than any other in history.

      When you have a president who asks whether he can pardon himself, then you realize that he has placed himself beyond the rules governing everyone else.

      Trump needs to be impeached post haste otherwise this society is pretty much done!

    25. Re:Yuo have to pay high taxes for big government by Areyoukiddingme · · Score: 1

      OH NOES! I hate that Canada has invaded and we're suffering under foreign rule.

      At least they apologize when their jackbooted thugs kick down your door and rape your wife.

      Where are my mod points... gone into the wind....

    26. Re:Yuo have to pay high taxes for big government by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The USA has high taxes but does not get the value out of those taxes. With the amount of money we dump into the government, we should have free government-paid healthcare for everyone, but instead we have a thousand disparate welfare programs, each with massive layers of bureaucracy while simultaneously having nowhere near enough workers "on the bottom" to actually service the case load for each kind of welfare. We could have free healthcare and a universal basic income but instead we have welfare that mostly helps people that don't deserve it while putting up too many barriers for people that actually need it, plus the government forcing us to purchase "health insurance" (what a load of shit, it's a discount payment group plan at best) at insanely high rates from private corporations.

      The problem is that people who make vast sums of money have vast loopholes; the poorest actually pay a higher tax burden as a percentage of income despite the progressive rate bracketing system and the "successful" little guy making $250K a year from his 50-person business gets taxed aggressively because they're "too wealthy" while the $10M a year big-wigs at huge corporations pay a mere pittance by comparison.

    27. Re:Yuo have to pay high taxes for big government by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Small government" is just rule by the rich. We've tried that already. In fact, it's the thing we've spent most of human history trying. It's a terrible system for everybody except the few people at the very top. Honestly, I don't think there's anything less "out of the box" than "let's let all the rich people make the rules and not try to constrain them in any way". Why is it that no conservatives have any working knowledge of history

      Agreed, but why do you think that America's and Great Britain's upper class was so enamored with fascism until the Germans found a way to give it a bad name? The one tenth's have an excellent knowledge of history and would like to return to feudalism, but barring that a more modern fascism under some other name would be just as welcome.

    28. Re:Yuo have to pay high taxes for big government by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Small government" is just rule by the rich.

      'Small government' means the states have to create a co-operative policy for the nation. It's an idea that's been copied by other countries and works, mostly because the number of voices is small. It fails in the USA because there's no way 50 voices (states) of differing industrial output and wealth want the same thing.

      The best demonstration of the US failure is the 2nd amendment. On Slashdot a few days ago, a status-quo conservative was demanding their right to bear arms: The US constitution doesn't say that. It says Americans have a right to a militia and a right to fight for their country.

      Ordinary Americans no longer practice going to war, and with a standing army, don't have to. But the idea that Americans are entitled to guns remains: Many states don't punish citizens for failing gun security and firearms safety; sometimes to the point that a negligent shooting is a lesser crime than a negligent hit-and-run. Californian politicians realized the stupidity of saying someone wasn't smart enough to drive a car but could still have a loaded gun: But they were blocked by the US constitution. The overreaching power of BATFE means the states, which are meant to be controlling the country, can't demand (federally enforced) limitations similar to what the federal government happily applies to other rights, like the right to silence.

    29. Re:Yuo have to pay high taxes for big government by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The best demonstration of the US failure is the 2nd amendment. On Slashdot a few days ago, a status-quo conservative was demanding their right to bear arms: The US constitution doesn't say that. It says Americans have a right to a militia and a right to fight for their country.

      You'd better read it again. It says the right to bear arms is a right of the people, not the government (militia). I'd like to know how you could possibly interpret "the people" not to mean individual citizens.

      It helps to know the context: at the time, the militia was assembled from the populace, therefore people needed to know how to use guns (which is what the "well-regulated" part means).

  10. Fuck you rich bastards. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's about time you paid your fair share.

    Next up: go to jail for employing an illegal gardener/maid.

    1. Re:Fuck you rich bastards. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's about time you paid your fair share.

      Roger that. $150-300k. Professional class incomes. City managers, educrats, doctors, non-profit administrators, etc. Solid (D) statist voters, never fail to demand more government spending while dodging the taxes. Most of the medical industry and its legion of $250k administrators is non-profit; the best tax haven on Earth.

      And yeah, don't employ an actual 'murican to cut your lawn... lot of FICA overhead employing those. Minimum wages you voted for, enacting your "values(tm)," etc. Don't pay what it takes to attract 'murican programmers; just import cheepy indentured servants.

      Our mighty orange chieftain doesn't have a lot of reasons to care about this demographic. Hang a (D) around the neck of a rabid pit viper and the professional class will vote for it.

  11. The rich piss on the middle class. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's called "trickle-down economy". You asked for it, you got it. Staying rich becomes easier, getting rich harder.

    1. Re:The rich piss on the middle class. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the correct term is "trickle up"

    2. Re:The rich piss on the middle class. by cold+fjord · · Score: 1

      Because of that? Clearly you have no idea whatsoever about the damage on the US economy inflicted by the Obama administration.

      More companies were dying under Obama than were being created. At least now there is a chance for the US economy to right itself.

      --
      much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
  12. Elective Royalty by Max_W · · Score: 2

    The current model of governance was created as an alternative to a monarchy centuries ago. And it is time to start to think how to modernize it.

    I have got an impression that the "elected" officials represent mostly themselves.

    1. Re:Elective Royalty by Undead+Waffle · · Score: 1

      What do you mean "modernize"? I am cautious about this line of reasoning because these days phrases like "new ideas" are often used to refer to things that aren't new at all but aren't common because they have failed (like Marxism). Our founding fathers were extremely wise and understood human nature well. Human nature hasn't changed since then.

      Our system of government is surprisingly well designed. Most of the fault lies in the voting population. So if your solution is some sort of direct democracy I don't see how giving the ignorant masses direct control of the government would turn out well. In fact, I would argue we would be better off moving back towards the original design of a weak federal government and most issues dealt with at a state level. This theoretically leads to policy that is more in line with what the local population wants and the elected officials are more accountable to the voters.

    2. Re:Elective Royalty by hord · · Score: 1

      We have an elected monarchy. This has been pretty evident since at least JFK if not far, far further back.

    3. Re: Elective Royalty by cyber-vandal · · Score: 1

      Only theoretically though since local governments are shit too.

    4. Re: Elective Royalty by Tenebrousedge · · Score: 1

      The way we vote sucks. Ending FPTP will result in more populist governments. These have their own problems, but we've gone too far down the road of republicanism to the point where the People have very little autonomy themselves, not even to select their leaders. That's sort of the central premise of Trumpism, that by doing this thing that all these establishment types hate, they must be having a real effect on the country. I almost wish it could be true.

      We've been researching and theorizing about how best to elect leaders since (unfortunately) just after this country was founded. It's time we applied that knowledge.

      --
      Those who advocate genocide deserve every protection afforded by law, and none afforded by common human decency.
    5. Re:Elective Royalty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What you describe would be nice, but we have way to many busy-do-gooders that think it is there moral responsibility to tell me how to live and if I don't are willing to do violence against me to force conformity. It comes from both sides of the political spectrum as well.

    6. Re:Elective Royalty by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      Our founding fathers were extremely wise and understood human nature well.

      They were elitist shitbags (many of whom owned slaves) who wanted to maintain aristocracy without being subjected themselves to the whims of a monarch.

      So if your solution is some sort of direct democracy I don't see how giving the ignorant masses direct control of the government would turn out well.

      Okay, elitist shitbag who doesn't want the proles to have a say in their own governance, name the last time direct democracy caused a global clusterfuck, as opposed to the representative democracies that caused two world wars. Just for starters.

      I would argue we would be better off moving back towards the original design of a weak federal government and most issues dealt with at a state level.

      So some states would be indistinguishable from third world countries? In a rush to get your cholera?

    7. Re: Elective Royalty by MooseMiester · · Score: 1

      There was nothing at all wrong with the electoral college until November 9, 2016. Strange coincidence, isn't it?

      --
      Murphy was an optimist
  13. Convieniently just above 'maximum' H1B wage? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    For all those technical H1B researchers that will be brought in to remove the last vestiges of the corporate owned American workforce?

  14. Fuck Tronald Dump, that treasonous bitch is GONE by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    MY TAXES pay for CRIMINALS like DRUMPF to go to POUND ME IN THE ASS PRISON - GET ON IT!

  15. Re: JOIN THE RESISTANCE!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hey, Fox News started it, now everyone can play, isn't it fun!

  16. Re:News for Nerds... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They mod you down... truth hurts.

  17. Winning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    SO
    MUCH
    WINNING

  18. "Good News: Well-off folks give slightly more" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Better title: "Good News: Well-off people to contribute slightly more to help keep society from collapsing around them"

  19. Cut spending, increase taxes, or print money. by Karmashock · · Score: 0

    People TALK about cutting spending, but it never seems to happen. And as a result taxation must increase to compensate... and that has limits and damages the economy at some point leading to lower economic growth etc which over time actually leads to lower tax revenue because there is less revenue to tax. Then there is the printing money idea which if done slowly simply rips off lenders and bond holders... which is the whole idea. Oh, I owe you a trillion dollars? PRINT... never said on the bond what the dollar had to be worth, eh?

    So far the printing money idea has worked well for the US. We've lost about 96 percent of the value of the dollar over the last 90 or so years. It hurts workers that don't negotiate wages or have their wages pegged to inflation and it hurts bond holders. But its what we're been doing.

    I suspect taxes will go up for a bit then get cut then go up then get cut... and all the while spending will increase and the difference will be paid with money snapped into existence with the press of a button.

    I personally don't believe in the money tree... that you can just create value out of nothing. But that appears to be what we're doing and it seems to have worked this far... let us hope America's Wily E Coyote moment doesn't come at the wrong moment... and gravity reasserts itself when we're over a fatal cliff. It would be unfortunate.

    --
    I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
    1. Re:Cut spending, increase taxes, or print money. by doctorvo · · Score: 1

      People TALK about cutting spending, but it never seems to happen.

      One might add here that if Medicare/Medicaid cut per patient spending to what European systems spend, we would have single-payer healthcare in the US with no tax increases and without touching the private health insurance system at all.

    2. Re:Cut spending, increase taxes, or print money. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People TALK about cutting spending, but it never seems to happen.

      Oh, it happens. But then people are aghast at it, because they want their bread buttered. Nobody likes the dry toast.

      Sometime, like in Kansas, people even choke on it.

      But its what we're been doing.

      Williams Jennings Bryan won after all. Well, not on the evolution business, but his economic plan triumphed! Except you know, it actually became the Bankers tool. I just re-read his cross of gold speech, it's hilarious in hindsight.

      I personally don't believe in the money tree... that you can just create value out of nothing.

      Value is created out of human desire. That's not nothing. It drives human beings to infinity and beyond.

      But that appears to be what we're doing and it seems to have worked this far... let us hope America's Wily E Coyote moment doesn't come at the wrong moment... and gravity reasserts itself when we're over a fatal cliff. It would be unfortunate.

      Doesn't seem to hurt the Coyote, he's always back up for the next bit, no matter what happens.

      But it's actually a poor analogy, the existence of gravity is the same problem for Mr. Coyote regardless of how he paid the ACME corporation for their products. I know, it's quite common to try to use illustrative stories to express a point, however, they often fail when you don't construct them in the right narrative fashion.

      I'd suggest considering a different approach. Or finding a Looney Toon where it was bad finances that caused the issue. I think that in the new show actually one of the stories DID have that happen. You should watch it, see if you can construct your presentation better.

    3. Re:Cut spending, increase taxes, or print money. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One might add here that if Medicare/Medicaid cut per patient spending to what European systems spend, we would have single-payer healthcare in the US with no tax increases and without touching the private health insurance system at all.

      That's not much of an addition, you merely said they "cut per patient spending" but neglected to provide a means or mechanism for doing so. Because you know, doing what you want, will require touching the private health care system. Inevitably.

      You know, the people who get the money. Good luck with that. And actually, a large share of Medicare money involves the private health insurance system. Part C, and Part D, I believe, though I'd have to check the actual dollar figures, it isn't insignificant.

    4. Re:Cut spending, increase taxes, or print money. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And as a result taxation must increase to compensate... and that has limits and damages the economy at some point leading to lower economic growth etc which over time actually leads to lower tax revenue because there is less revenue to tax.

      Bwa ha ha.

    5. Re:Cut spending, increase taxes, or print money. by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      Ah but then you'd have to cut regulations which ultimately made our healthcare this expensive in the first place. ;)

      Adjust the cost of what people paid for a broken arm 50 years ago to today's money... and you'll find that people were paying about 1/4th of what we're paying now for the same procedures. Why?

      Mixture of regulations which have dramatically inflated medical costs.

      Doubtless you're dubious... did you know we recently had a shortage of medical grade baking soda. Sodium bicarbonate. The drug industry in the US is so screwed up because of the FDA that we have a shortage of baking soda. Any company that produces baking soda could have produced the medical grade version of it but they are not allowed to without going through some FDA hoops that are frankly absurdly expensive and prohibitive.

      The notion of Single Payer is that you're going to lower costs. And the only way you're going to be able to do that is by making less silly most of the dumb regulations that have made medical care so expensive in the US.

      50 years ago, the top 3 floors of most hospitals were not taken up with people doing paper work. It wasn't needed. Shift nurses ran wards. Administration was much lighter. And as we have seen recently, private practice medical care is getting hammered.

      If we what we had was such a bastion of free market healthcare, then why are private practices dying? Its all big hospitals sucking on federal money. And this we conflate with free market healthcare.

      The hypocrisy on the issue is astounding. My body my choice we are told... except when it doesn't involve abortion or recreational drugs... then suddenly even though it is our bodies we don't have a choice.

      By all means, allow these organizations to monitor things and inform people. But if I don't give a flying fuck what the FDA says or I don't give a flying fuck what Washington DC says about how I should get healthcare... kindly either get out of my way... or I can only judge you a detriment to my health and well being.

      Our healthcare system used to be affordable. It was the meddling in the system which made it unaffordable. And it is no coincidence that the more you meddle the worse it gets. Every failure and disaster is used as an excuse to get more money and more power.

      Remember how the ACA was supposed to lower costs? It didn't. At some point failing to predict the outcomes of your programs should compel some humility about how well you understand what you are talking about.

      --
      I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
    6. Re:Cut spending, increase taxes, or print money. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ah but then you'd have to cut regulations which ultimately made our healthcare this expensive in the first place.

      Nope, you'd have to take money from the current crop of people who are making themselves rich. That's the real issue.

      People making money, like to keep making money.

      Adjust the cost of what people paid for a broken arm 50 years ago to today's money... and you'll find that people were paying about 1/4th of what we're paying now for the same procedures. Why?

      Compare what they did for a broken arm 50 years ago versus what they'll do today. Surprisingly, it isn't the same process.

      You'll want to do a more comprehensive analysis. It's the same problem with pregnancy. The costs seem inflated, but that's because instead of babies dying quickly, we can keep them alive for considerable periods. See Charlie Gard.

      Doubtless you're dubious... did you know we recently had a shortage of medical grade baking soda. Sodium bicarbonate. The drug industry in the US is so screwed up because of the FDA that we have a shortage of baking soda. Any company that produces baking soda could have produced the medical grade version of it but they are not allowed to without going through some FDA hoops that are frankly absurdly expensive and prohibitive.

      It wasn't the FDA. It was having sodium bicarbonate principally supplied by only two entities, Pfizer and Amphastar, neither of whom was redundant, because well, why would they be? Nobody regulated them into it. And when Pfizer had an issue, or so they say, since the cause is STILL undisclosed(confidentiality agreements they say...), well, things got a bit tight.

      Of course, it's just as likely some guy like Martin Shkreli decided to make a profit and jack things up. It's happened before, and will likely happen again. The FDA has made some headway in preventing these things though, the numbers have been cut from 251 in 2011, to 23 in 2016. But it's really hard to get things done in advance. People are like grasshoppers, not ants.

      50 years ago, the top 3 floors of most hospitals were not taken up with people doing paper work. It wasn't needed. Shift nurses ran wards. Administration was much lighter.

      And now, today, they're billing 50 different insurance organizations, including Medicare/Medicaid. Sometimes overbilling, as HCA demonstrated. Plus they weren't spending huge sums on landscaping, mosaics, and all the other pretty stuff.

      And as we have seen recently, private practice medical care is getting hammered.

      If we what we had was such a bastion of free market healthcare, then why are private practices dying?

      Individual private practices aren't as efficient or effective as more organized enterprise. See also how Wal-Mart, Amazon, etc are destroying small retail stores. Of course, it's a different story in Japan. They actually regulate their industry so doctors DO own things.

      But still, just took my mother to cataract surgery. She kept saying "Oh this is like Soviet Russia" because of their industrial set-up. I kept explaining to her that the assembly-line nature of it was instead capitalist efficiency. Took her to McDonalds after each trip too.

      Its all big hospitals sucking on federal money.

      Yep. Again, see HCA. And the price they paid? Well, their CEO is governor of Florida. I would consider that cruel and unusual punishment myself.

      The hypocrisy on the issue is astounding.

      I see, you've been paying attention to the Trumpcare bill.

      My body my choice we are told... except when it doesn't involve abortion or recreational drugs... then suddenly even though it is our bodies we don't have a choice.

      Oh you forgot all the upset over physician-assisted suicide, didn't you? Of course, there are LOTS of problems over painkillers,

    7. Re:Cut spending, increase taxes, or print money. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What you say is so true.

      A clarification, though. I work for a hospital, and the reason for private practices dying isn't federal money, or lack of.
      We're (the hospital) are absorbing all the private practices in the area (you'll see the "affiliate of hospital X" sign on the window), and the reason is that the small practices just cannot keep up with the demands for HIPPA, electronic medical records, and Who Knows What regulation that must be followed if you want your claim to be paid, or to avoid fines and threats of prison.
      And it's not just government regulations.
      Insurance companies have quality programs and rules that even more onerous to follow than Medicare, but the private practices have no weight to carry into a negotiations with the insurance companies. It's just take it or don't get your claims paid. Single hospitals don't even have enough clout to negotiate. It's pretty much only hospital groups that can refuse to accept contracts with the insurance companies' demands and low payments.
      And you have multiple Insurance companies to deal with.

      And it galls me to no end that, as you've noticed, hospitals have far more people in the billing office than people practicing medicine.

    8. Re:Cut spending, increase taxes, or print money. by doctorvo · · Score: 1

      Ah but then you'd have to cut regulations which ultimately made our healthcare this expensive in the first place. ;)

      You'd also have to reduce the massive profits for pharmaceutical companies, lawyers, and doctors, all big Democratic donors. That's why it's not going to happen.

      I'm simply pointing out that Democrats are lying when they are saying that they want a European-style welfare state.

    9. Re:Cut spending, increase taxes, or print money. by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      its all paper work that comes from the government. The private practices can't afford to do it and the government is ultimately mandating the paper work. Even if it is the insurance company requiring it, consider why they are requiring it... same reason... regulations. For them to comply with regulations and liability they need the care provider to do a lot of paper work or else the insurance company would risk not being in compliance.

      There was a test hospital in Texas that was able to drop the prices for care by something like a factor of six or eight. It did it by literally just going back to the old format. From all indications the quality of care didn't decline.

      We're seeing this with all the things that have out of control costs.

      What percentage of our healthcare bill actually goes to doctors? A tiny fraction when all is said and done. And what portion of our college tuitions goes to professors... also very little. Just as with the medical industry, most of the cost increases in education have gone to administrators which are not actually required... and even if you need SOME administrators, you certainly don't need more now per capita than we had in the 1950s. If anything, because of automation, we should need less. That administration has increased as the ability to automate administration has increased... and as institutions become existentially affordable is interesting.

      Its very hard to look at this as anything but corruption, mismanagement, and stupidity. Both healthcare and education could be made very affordable simply by reverting the regulations and allowing competition.

      If I'm happy enough to go to a doctor, wave the paper work and whatever protections its alleged to afford me... who's business is that besides mine and the doctor's?

      That the government even thinks it has a right to tell me who I can and cannot see for medical treatment is offensive.

      The vast majority of medical procedures aren't even that complicated or require a proper medical degree.

      Here someone will make the argument that you want to have the full 8 year doctor in every little thing or you'll die of some rare and highly unlikely thing that the less educated practitioner will miss. But we have to do a cost benefit here. The vast majority of cases involve simple repetitive procedures that are neither hard nor require an extensive background to administer. Having a cadre of technicians just performing those procedures would take enormous weight off the rest of the industry. Those people handled, you'd only be dealing with more serious cases that do require that sort of expertise. And even there, most of the expertise is in diagnosis. They could guide the techs which would be much more efficient than having the doctor personally do it.

      Western medicine developed in the triage tents of the Legion. It was all about practicality... division of labor... This man cannot be saved so prioritize this other man that can be saved. The long and the short is that the US healthcare industry can be saved... the cancer has to be cut out of it.

      --
      I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
    10. Re:Cut spending, increase taxes, or print money. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That administration has increased as the ability to automate administration has increased... and as institutions become existentially affordable is interesting.

      Come again? Try as I might, I can't parse this sentence with any certainty.

      Also you meant "waive" and no, the problem with that is we still have to determine if your waiver was appropriate.

    11. Re:Cut spending, increase taxes, or print money. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You'd also have to reduce the massive profits for pharmaceutical companies, lawyers, and doctors, all big Democratic donors. That's why it's not going to happen.

      Why not? You do know who is in charge of government, right? They don't have a (D) next to their name. You're not going to be able to blame anything on the Democrats for the next year and a half, possibly longer.

      See the recent vote. It didn't matter what Democrats did at all.

      I'm simply pointing out that Democrats are lying when they are saying that they want a European-style welfare state.

      Ah, I begin to see the problem. You're mistaken in your claims. They don't say that. They don't even try to promise that.

      Review the Affordable Care Act. Not once did they seek to institute publicly funded and operated health care. Even the "markets" were just ways to facilitate the interests of insurance providers. Nothing about actually providing care.

      You must be very confused.

    12. Re:Cut spending, increase taxes, or print money. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That administration has increased as the ability to automate administration has increased... and as institutions become existentially affordable is interesting.

      Come again? Try as I might, I can't parse this sentence with any certainty.

      Also you meant "waive" and no, the problem with that is we still have to determine if your waiver was appropriate.

      It's karmashock so there's no reason to try to parse these sentences.
      As usual, he has no idea of what he's talking about.

  20. thankfully by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    you get what you deserve

  21. Big Government made me RICH!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My daddy was an engineer in the Defense INdustry for 50+ years. He had a long high paying cushy job and saved. I inherited a very very nice chunk of change -tax free.

    Whenever a POTUS says the word "BOMB", $100,000 gets tacked on - tax free.

    Whenever there is talk about Israel - mo' money!

    Aircraft carriers? - Mo' money!

    Team America World Police is very nice for me.

    And where does my money come from? Out of everyone else's pockets.

    So keep on with distracting yourself and everyone about the "poor" and DoE. The military industrial complex is very nice indeed! And I double dip too. US Treasury bonds.

    And with our aging population, Medicare and Social Security is going to dwarf everything else, anyway.

    YOu are just being penny wise and pound foolish when it comes to the Federal Budget.

    Poor people are not the problem.

    Now, I need to get another war going on so I can get richer.

  22. it's the fault of oil by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I mean seriously there are lots of causes for the current state of the world but there is also no doubt that the lust for oil contributes a whole lot.

    Because we need oil so much, we meddle in other countries way more than we should which means we "need" a huge military budget for both direct interventions and to protect ourselves from the blowback.

    If we put even half the money we use on defense into developing renewable energy, not only would we be solving that problem but we'd be employing Americans in the process. The USA could become the energy supplier to the world.

    And to be clear, I actually have no problem with the number of soldiers we employ. It's the money we blow on keeping them overseas and paying the military industrial complex that bothers me.

    I think one possible solution would be that we'd pick a few strategic overseas bases with the permission of longtime ally host nations and then any deployment of troops outside of those areas is limited. The president has up to 30 days that he can do on his own authority, any more than that requires full congressional approval, preferably via super-majority.

  23. lifestyle creep by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Maybe, but that's a result of lifestyle choices. $150000 for a family of four is definitely easy street in terms of income.

    I do acknowledge, however, that many families in that bracket can feel like they are struggling.

    http://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/lifestyle-creep.asp

    There's nothing necessarily wrong with wanting nicer things (and experiences), but it can get out of hand.

  24. yeah, right ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    "If President Donald Trump sticks to what he has said... " ... and when has that happened, even if he wanted it to?

    1. Re:yeah, right ... by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      Indeed, Trump's statements are as reliable as mud, both in terms of what he actually wants, and what Congress will approve.

  25. Depends on where you live by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you live on Manhattan island or inside San Francisco - $150K barely covers rent.

    I've lived in 11 different states and 13 different metro areas. They have very different "costs of living." Where I live now is not the cheapest, but $150K/yr is fairly well-off.

    Remember, in the USA, we have to pay for things you probably don't there. 1 or 2 vehicles. Only about 10 cities here have public transportation sufficient to forgo having a vehicle. The closest bus stop to my home is a 20 min drive away, for example. My city HAS a subway system and huge bus system. BTW, the bus I can get to isn't part of the overall metro system and overlaps only about 45 min away at 2 location, with a total of 6 buses a day.
    So - add $40K to your expenses every 10 yrs for new vehicle. My car is 16 yrs old now, but I keep it well-maintained, if not pretty.

    College. My education in the late 1980s was cheap, even by standards today. I attended a top 5 engineering school for undergraduate degrees for the entire USA. If cost about $6K/ year. I just looked up the costs for my school. They are about $7K/semester now, if I'm "in-state." I don't live there anymore, so that would cost about $21K/semester. Assuming a 4 year degree (which took me 5 yrs), that would be $170K for an engineering degree - and this is one of the cheapest, excellent, state, schools in the entire USA. Forget about Stanford, MIT, Rice - those would be much higher costs.

    In the USA, the tax system helps business owners. Workers get screwed, but if you have a business, many things become "business expenses" and tax deductible. The people working normal jobs should learn this. Keep their normal job, but add some other personal business and all sorts of things become partially deductible. Worst case, you quit your day job because the night-job you love takes off. I read about a Russian girl who immigrated here as a teen and worked in a circus act. She started making thigh-high socks with faces and back-stories. People loved them. She learned how to handle everything and stopped doing her circus act and now has a full-time job with some employees selling/making these socks. She also has a youtube channel, so her hobby became her business. Computers, switches, Bluray devices, projectors, still/video cameras - all that is part of her business. Wearing the socks in public is "marketing" and tax deductible. Imagine - going for a walk in a mall for exercise is tax deductible - the mileage to get there or any gas, bus-fair, is covered. Need a smoothy after the workout? Deductible - ok, that last one is debatable. I wouldn't take the deduction unless I also bought another for a potential purchase agent from one of the mall stores too.

    Did I mention health insurance and care costs? I pay over $1000 a month for health insurance and have ZERO medical conditions. ZERO. That is thanks to Obamacare. Before the ACA, I was paying $154/month - that was just 4 yrs ago. The plan choices in my state have dropped 50% from 2016 to 2017. There are only 2 insurance providers left - it is like internet service - AT&T or Comcast. Both charge 50% more than they should. For 4 months, Comcast has been sending fliers about GigE being available in my area. I contacted them 2 days ago, got a call back yesterday where the caller never said I could get GigE service. He was reading a script with 25Mbps at the beginning, then 35Mbps, then 50Mbps. At that point I told him he was wasting my time and hung up. Every year, Comcast sends out 30 "new" offers which all turn out to be a complete waste of my time. Every August, I give in and call, wasting 15 minutes to discover their crap hasn't changed. It still stinks.

    Anyway, the point is that comparing total income and costs of living just isn't apples-to-apples.

    If I were starting my career in software development over today, I'd get a job in the most expensive city I could at the beginning. Then every 3 yrs, change jobs to get a promotion and every 6 yrs move to a slightly cheaper city,

    1. Re:Depends on where you live by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you live on Manhattan island or inside San Francisco - $150K barely covers rent.

      Really?

      You can't find a rental for less than $12,000 a month?

    2. Re:Depends on where you live by psycho12345 · · Score: 1

      I think that, more accurately, after taxes (even with deductions), you are left with an amount that does cover rent, but rent chews up so much, that you are left with not a ton left over.

      150k is still pretty good, but consider that if you had no deductions, you would pay 50k in taxes, leaving you with 100k. Then consider 5-6k a month rent. That would leave you with only 30-40k. Still not bad, but it gets chewed up fast.

      Then you have the fact that many things are more expensivei n those locations (like fuel, food, household supplies) and tack on another 7+% sales tax for some of that, and 35k goes by pretty fast. Still workable, but if you were to reduce your income by 25k (125k total), this would start to get rough.

    3. Re:Depends on where you live by magzteel · · Score: 1

      If you live on Manhattan island or inside San Francisco - $150K barely covers rent.

      Really?

      You can't find a rental for less than $12,000 a month?

      Well lets see.
      150K income after federal, state, and city taxes for a NYC resident will net about 90K.
      90K/12 = $7500/month
      Figure there will be other deductions for medical and such, so 7000/mo
      If you fund your 401K retirement plan, deduct 1500, so you have 5500
      Median rent in Manhattan is $3350 so that leaves you $2150/mo for everything else.

      Insurance, food, entertainment, clothes, medical expenses, transportation, and so on.
      You will definitely be tight, and not saving much other than the retirement income

    4. Re:Depends on where you live by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Then consider 5-6k a month rent."

      Why would I ever pay such a ludicrous sum for rent? My mortgage is a fifth of that.

    5. Re:Depends on where you live by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I pay over $1000 a month for health insurance and have ZERO medical conditions. ZERO. That is thanks to Obamacare. Before the ACA, I was paying $154/month - that was just 4 yrs ago.

      That's because your pre-ACA insurance plan was crap that would not have covered you if you got a serious illness like cancer.

    6. Re:Depends on where you live by Paradise+Pete · · Score: 2

      Why would I ever pay such a ludicrous sum for rent? My mortgage is a fifth of that.

      In Manhattan or San Francisco? Say, are you the old lady who lived in a shoe?

    7. Re:Depends on where you live by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      > That's because your pre-ACA insurance plan was crap that would not have covered you if you got a serious illness like cancer.

      Utter bullshit, lame, canned, liberal narrative.

      YOU are why people voted for Trump.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    8. Re: Depends on where you live by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Demonstrably false.

      My plan before ACA covered more, had a lower deductible, and cost 1/3rd as much. It was deemed illegal and I had to pay for a worse one that cost a shit load more.

      You are the reason why I voted for Trump.

    9. Re: Depends on where you live by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's strange. I paid $683 a month for a platinum plan for two people for the year they weren't covered by my employer plan. You need to shop around more.

      Oh, and since Obamacare, my employer provided plan has gone up about 10% a year--exactly the same rate it has gone up since 1997. Coverage is actually better than it was since preventative diagnostics are now covered and the $1 million lifetime cap is now illegal.

    10. Re: Depends on where you live by HuguesT · · Score: 1

      How is that working out for you?

    11. Re:Depends on where you live by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I see a Trump supporter resorting to cuss words, which means they know they can not support their argument with logic and reasoning.

      Fact: The ACA requires that insurance companies spend 80% or more of premiums they receive. Reference

      Which means, insurance costs more because it's covering more. The ACA stopped all kinds of games insurance companies paid: Lifetime coverage caps, not insuring sick patients, refusing to insure people they thought might become sick, stopping insurance once people got sick, etc.

      Facts matter. Truth matters. And, yes, Trump voters are the most idiotic paranoid conspiracy theory believing nutcases out there. Pizzagate, anyone? Or do you still believe Obama was a Muslim born in Kenya?

      You are a moron.

    12. Re:Depends on where you live by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      "Then consider 5-6k a month rent."

      Why would I ever pay such a ludicrous sum for rent? My mortgage is a fifth of that.

      We're talking about locations where salaries are high, but basic costs of living, like rent are also high. With a quick search the low end for a 2BR studio apartment in SF was around $3k/month. That's really the cost of living in the city, and that's why the salaries are higher.

  26. Household income ~$180k by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Household income ~$190k. But, after deductions ($36k in 401k's, $6k in HSA, $5k in DCFSA, medical premiums, etc.) well under $150k. Factor in standard deduction and exemptions for a family of four and you're closer to $100k.

    Haven't read the article, but if you are saving wisely you'd need to be making over $200k-$230k at least before getting $150k taxable.

    So what is the article talking about? Gross, AGI, or taxable?

  27. What does this.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ..have to do with tech or geeks. This isn't reddit, won't ever be reddit. Good to see the new owner running this site into the ground.

  28. you probably voted for even higher increases by doctorvo · · Score: 1

    Oh, it's clear why people here wouldn't like this: this is just the income bracket for progressive Silicon valley techies and nerds. But to put this into perspective: this is small potatoes to what Democrats would have given us. Democrats want a European-style welfare state, and that requires large tax increases on the middle class; it's the only way it can be financed. In European welfare states, the average tax bill for people making more than $50000 is 35% (compared to our 25%), and sales taxes are 2-3x higher.

  29. Bad headline.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Alternative headline: People in all income brackets will see a tax cut
    Another: 70% of people making $150k - $300k will see a tax cut
    It's simply fake news to say this is BAD NEWS for high income people. It's good news for most, bad news for some.

  30. I want to pay thhose taxes! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I really want to pay those taxes.
    Why?
    - that means that I am earning $100-150k/year
    - I am resident in the USoA :-)

    Now, as contractor I am earning ~50k/year working for US based company
    but living in nook of the Eastern Europe.
    Pay is very good locally but other aspects not so brilliant locally.

  31. New victim class by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What do we call these Progressives who make a lot of money and want their taxes raised but feel sadz because a Republican came through for them. Then they whine and cry about higher taxes.

  32. GOP Reduce cost of government ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Effing Republicans....run on this whole anti-tax and spend thing, then turn around and double down on the same. Sure, they'll cut a few bucks from the EPA, ding PBS, or Planned Parenthood. Frankly, that's fine you attack the big stuff. Defense & entitlements,

    Remember when we had 'sequestration' in 2013 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_budget_sequestration_in_2013 ). That was the whole, doomsday scenario of 10% across the board cuts if the Dems and Republicans couldn't negotiate a budget. It was never supposed to happen, and dire threats of what would happen to military readiness...poor people, the environment, if this was enacted. Guess what, it was enacted and all was/is fine. Indeed like most budget deals it only slowed the growth of the increases but it was something. All that crying and wailing and gnashing of teeth and it was all fine. No Red Dawn style invasion.

    So Paul Ryan, Mitch McConnell, Tea Baggers, it's time y'all got your acts together and put up or shut up. You got full run of the joint, lets see what you really are about. Methinks you are about enriching the military-industrial-senior-citizen-entitlements complex, just like your evil twins (Schumer/Pelosi) across the aisle. And Trump...totally worthless bag of hot tweety air..

  33. Democrats hardest hit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    $150,000 is the salary of the rich if you lived in middle America, i.e. Trump's base. However, it's the New York City liberal or California socialist, this is right smack in the middle class of their costs of living. Trump has shown he doesn't care a rats ass about those who disparage him, so buckle up buttercups. It's payback time.

  34. Sigh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm getting tired of Msmash's political posts. Think it might be time to move on from slashdot after 5-6-7? years.

  35. Meanwhile, in my tax bracket... by grasshoppa · · Score: 1

    ..if his proposals go through, I'm looking at a refund about 10x what I was anticipating, with my obligation falling from 14,500 to ~10,000.

    As I loathe giving this government a single dime, I have to say I'm quite pleased with this potential outcome.

    --
    Mod me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
  36. I was worried for a second. by Spudboy2003 · · Score: 1

    I have nothing to worry about if those numbers are correct.

    1. Re:I was worried for a second. by hyades1 · · Score: 1

      That rich, are you. ;-)

      --
      I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
  37. How happy are you now, Trump supporters? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Gee, isn't raising taxes something the LIBERALS and DEMOCRATS do?
    How happy are you going to be when your buddy Trump is taxing you into oblivion? Are you feeling America becoming Great Again? Or are you feeling betrayed and used? Are you still not seeing how screwed the entire country is because of this 'president'?

    Don't EVEN SAY I WANTED HILLARY. NO ONE WANTED HILLARY EITHER! But YOU PEOPLE helped bring this, and everything ELSE this narcissistic megalomaniac is doing, down on EVERYONES HEADS. I hope you're all happy with yourselves!

  38. What planet do you live on? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My salary is within that range, and I am nowhere close to being "rich."

    I am renting a mediocre apartment. I can't afford to buy a place because the prices are astronomical. From my quick math, I would need a 20% pay raise in order to afford the cheapest condo.

    And I drive a 19 year old car (no uppity $35k Teslas for me!)

    It's insulting that some people think $200k is rich. $200k might get you a pretty nice life in a small farm town middle of nowhere, but in a city where people actually want to live it's nothing special.

  39. Wrong branch of government by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Last time I checked Article I gave Congress the power to levy taxes not the Executive branch. Yeah, yeah, the ruling party in the White House tends to set the tone for the legislative agenda and is normally heavily involved in the process, but why would anyone think that would be the case this time? When the tax code overhaul comes along this time it will be McConnell and the gang and their agenda, not the know-nothing, feckless reality TV star figurehead. His input will be just as it was with health care reform: more self-serving NY-style real estate tycoon BS about how great everything is and will be (and how much the previous guys sucked and were idiots) and more stellar insights like: "it turns out tax law is complicated—who knew?" or maybe "how Andrew Jackson could have stopped that whole WWII thing (and he was dead set against it, and hey why doesn't anybody wonder why it happened?)"

  40. Militias by Tenebrousedge · · Score: 1

    Okay, I read some history books. Afghanistan is everybody's favorite place to have a proxy war, so that's why that happened. Now go look at everywhere else that they didn't have a major government backing them up. Take a look at all the unsuccessful Nazi resistances. Take a look at Ruby Ridge. Take a look at every country that ever subjugated another.

    The point of a modern military is not the "boots on the ground", but the infrastructure that gets them there armed, equipped, on time, with good intel about their surroundings. And in general, it's more efficient to have a rank structure where one guy at the top can send a bunch of people out to kill or be killed without having to hold a war council: this is a tough thing to evolve as a militia.

    For the best argument against the second amendment ever, we can look to the war of 1812, where the more numerous militia completely failed to prevent the British from burning down Washington, D.C.. At which point our leaders decided that standing armies were maybe not such a terrible thing after all and started funding an army and a navy. They didn't update the Constitution to reflect this change of heart, and now we're stuck with it.

    Given that no one has tried to repeat this militia nonsense, not even ourselves, we can suggest that this is probably a terrible idea. However, if you want to champion it, you should probably either be advocating for the elimination of the military. If not you should be aware that what you're advocating for is very much not in line with the Founders' views.

    --
    Those who advocate genocide deserve every protection afforded by law, and none afforded by common human decency.
    1. Re: Militias by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It doesn't matter whether Afghanistan was a proxy war state. Alexander the Great couldn't do it, nor could the Mongols, nor could the Mughals, nor the British, despite each empire having the greatest fighting forces for it's time in history. Nobody, including you, has ever demonstrated that Afghanistan was completely conquered at any point in recorded history.

      The Nazis had already confiscated weapons long before they had started targeting people for nothing more than their ethnic background. They could never have accomplished the greatest mass murder up to that point in human history before the confiscation of guns so many Germans possessed.

      Ruby Ridge was a tremendous number of resources trained onto a very small number of targets. You think the government could sustain sieges on a thousand of these? You think people already in positions of power would blindly follow orders and not turn? What do you think The Oathkeepers is about? Remember when Cliven Bundy in NV had his land appropriated by the BLM and hundreds of supporters caused the government to back down?

      Never seek conflict, but never back down when it's inevitable and never allow someone to take your right to protect yourself away. History proves it over and over, even if you conveniently overlooked some very critical historical details that undermine your arguments.

    2. Re: Militias by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You don't think the feds couldn't have brought whatever force needed to knock out those Bundy idiots had they had the desire to? A couple of drones would have done the job. A lot of us would have been cheering them on.

    3. Re: Militias by Tenebrousedge · · Score: 1

      has ever demonstrated that Afghanistan was completely conquered at any point in recorded history.

      That's great except that you're actually arguing the semantics of "completely conquered". Afghanistan has been conquered repeatedly, and for that matter, referring to Afghanistan as if it were some sort of culturally distinct territory instead of a modern invention is rather stupid. It certainly does matter whether these were proxy wars because, as stated, a military is at least as much a means of getting soldiers and materiel moved around. Guns alone are not a fighting force. If some major government is supplying you with guns, ammunition, money, and training, then you don't get to be called a civil resistance. Again, the early history of this country is quite relevant: we did great in the Revolution when the world's second-strongest military power was draining their economy to support us, and when we relied on the militia, the Capitol burned.

      The Nazis had already confiscated weapons long before they had started targeting people for nothing more than their ethnic background. They could never have accomplished the greatest mass murder up to that point in human history before the confiscation of guns so many Germans possessed.

      Which would be relevant if we weren't discussing the utter failure of any of the resistance groups (i.e. those people who *did* have guns) to make any meaningful impact on the Nazi war effort.

      You think the government could sustain sieges on a thousand of these?

      Why would they?

      What do you think The Oathkeepers is about?

      Feel-good nonsense and financial self-interest. Relevant.

      Remember when Cliven Bundy in NV had his land appropriated by the BLM and hundreds of supporters caused the government to back down?

      Um...okay...so this is called "going off the rails". The National Park Service was attempting to confiscate his cattle, And -- the BLM, really? You couldn't 'win' some sort of equally-imaginary battle against the Boy Scouts or some organization with a little teeth? You're also not winning sympathy by claiming as a hero someone whose sole claim to fame is refusing to pay a bill. And you may have noticed that he is currently being tried for that, and that one of his supporters received a 68-year sentence two days ago.

      Your moral ideas about the way the world should be do not make a collection of rampant individualists an effective fighting force. There are at best a handful of historical examples to the contrary. Most often it's just a way to get massacred by a real army.

      --
      Those who advocate genocide deserve every protection afforded by law, and none afforded by common human decency.
    4. Re: Militias by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It doesn't matter whether Afghanistan was a proxy war state.

      Yes, it does.

      Alexander the Great couldn't do it, nor could the Mongols, nor could the Mughals, nor the British, despite each empire having the greatest fighting forces for it's time in history.

      Iskander was at the end of his reach there, returned to Mesopotamia(where the real wealth was) and died from an infection without consolidating his empire, the Mongols crushed Khwarezmia, the Mughals ruled Aghanistan, and declined due to other factors, and the British gave up on their empire for their own reasons. History rejects your myths.

      Nobody, including you, has ever demonstrated that Afghanistan was completely conquered at any point in recorded history.

      You're wrong, but no need to do so anyway, since the ARGUMENT, in case you forgot was:

      This 18th century idea that an armed militia can keep the government (or anything) under control is ridiculous in this day and age.

      You're arguing something else entirely with your references to historical events. Which you're wrong about anyway.

      The Nazis had already confiscated weapons long before they had started targeting people for nothing more than their ethnic background. They could never have accomplished the greatest mass murder up to that point in human history before the confiscation of guns so many Germans possessed.

      They never could have accomplished their mass murder without the complicity of the mass of the German people, but since they had that, well...that's why they oppress a large section of their own people, roll over the armies of France, Denmark, the Netherlands, Belgium, Poland, Czechoslovakia, most of the Balkans, and a good portion of Russia, and get up to their mindless brutality.

      Ruby Ridge was a tremendous number of resources trained onto a very small number of targets.

      Ruby Ridge was a massive waste of resources because they did nothing, and instead exercised restraint. A single Special Forces unit could have taken them down in minutes.

      You think the government could sustain sieges on a thousand of these?

      They wouldn't bother. You think that Ruby Ridge NEEDED those resources? Or the Bundy Ranch? The Malfeur Standoff? The Branch Davidian Compound? It was all about restraint, not use of force.

      You think people already in positions of power would blindly follow orders and not turn?

      Yes, they already do.

      What do you think The Oathkeepers is about?

      A bunch of idiots pretending they aren't full of shit. You have seen their posturing, right?

      Remember when Cliven Bundy in NV had his land appropriated by the BLM and hundreds of supporters caused the government to back down?

      Remember when Cliven Bundy became a nobody? The government didn't back down, they just kept him contained, let him fume impotently, then ignored him till everybody went home after declaring a fake victory. See, Obama was smart, he didn't need to start a fight over a bunch of Nevada scrubland, he just waited until nobody gave a crap anymore. Then they arrested him, and will put him on trial later.

      Even now, he sits in jail, and two of his sons are as well.

      But you think he accomplished something, didn't you?

      Never seek conflict, but never back down when it's inevitable and never allow someone to take your right to protect yourself away. History proves it over and over, even if you conveniently overlooked some very critical historical details that undermine your arguments.

      Never seek conflict, and don't start pissing contests over worthless anthills or wrestle over a pile of shit. History proves it over and over, even if you prefer to manufacture a view of history in order to create a false structure for your arguments.

    5. Re: Militias by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Now there's a good little sheep. You keep on thinking that everything the government does is honorable and in your best interest, and capitulate. Make sure you turn in your neighbors after you've turned in your kitchen knives.

    6. Re: Militias by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Now there's a good little sheep. You keep on thinking that everything the government does is honorable and in your best interest, and capitulate. Make sure you turn in your neighbors after you've turned in your kitchen knives.

      Oh, I see you can't reply with any substantial response, so you need to resort to vacuous rhetoric. You keep on being a "sovereign citizen" railing at the government, and make sure you laminate your personal liberty license, so it doesn't get soggy when you piss yourself.

      Really, I could talk with you if you had a legitimate grievance, or even if you articulated some tangible complaint, no matter how groundless, but showed an ability to listen. Unfortunately, what you demonstrated instead is the typical bleating of the braying jackasses who go around complaining that their neighbors are broadcasting radio waves into their brain.

    7. Re: Militias by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That wasn't me, but I will summarize succinctly the reasons you are again wrong:

      You refused to say why the proxy state statement is relevant to the discussion, so you failed there. Again.

      As for Afghanistan, everyone eventually fought back, or the current state of Afghanistan likely would not exist as it does. Your own source from The Guardian says it wasn't ruled for very long, and it is a fact that the entire territory was never ruled 100%, so your argument is still false.

      You seem to hinge on the fact that 18th century ideas are invalid ideas, but that is itself irrelevant. Firearms ownership has always and will always be an impediment to totalitarian rule. Absolutely no totalitarian society in human history has allowed private firearms ownership outside of those who were ranking members of their respective totalitarian movement. Prove otherwise. You can't.

      This is also why you conveniently skim over the fact that private firearms ownership ceased to exist in Nazi Germany with the exception of Nazi party members, and that was already on top of Weimar Germany's already strict gun laws and registration. Jews, gypsies, gays and other persecuted parties had no guns because they had no right to Nazi party membership. None. This is why there were only pockets of resistance by the time and why ignoring this fact makes your argument completely invalid. Between that and the continuous policy of appeasement by the League of Nations, nobody in Europe had hope.

      Of course the government eventually arrested those at the Bundy siege, but that was because many of those went to the Oregon siege two years later and were arrested for previous and then-current activities. This wasn't Obama being smart as he had no direct operational control over the decision to withdraw, which is yet another falsehood on your part, and also indicates a political slant that is short-sighted (i.e. it isn't about left vs. right, it is about statism vs. individual freedom, a subtlety which you fail to grasp). They withdrew because they didn't want another Waco, which it would've inevitably become if they had made any moves. In fact, the Ruby Ridge siege was ignited by a government sniper who shot Randy Weaver's son in the back as well as his wife later in the incident, and eventually Randy Weaver and his children received millions in a settlement from the government in the matter.

      Those are just two incidents which cost millions of dollars and tremendous government resources. What if a thousand of those incidents occur? Do you think there are sufficient resources to deal with a thousand standoffs? You still haven't answered this question and you cannot and will not because there is no way to deal with this. Oathkeepers aside, do you really think everyone in the military and other government entities who are armed will simply turn against people in that way? There is no way this would continue in this way.

      And now we come to the ultimate point about why you think people are in conflict with the government over anthills and piles of shit. You may think that, but that isn't the case. Someone's multi-generational cattle ranch being suddenly taken from them is your anthill, but not theirs. Blatant disregard for property and rights is what causes conflict. It's the same reasoning that gets people sent to prison in Oregon for collecting rain water on their property, or why the central valley of California is being turned into a dustbowl because of the supposed protection of a single species of fish and other politically expedient forces. Some things are worth fighting for for some people even if you don't care about them. It's that lack of empathy combined with dependence on the state's benevolence that makes totalitarianism possible. Some of us will choose to fight, but only when it becomes necessary for our own livelihoods or basic needs and not a moment before. Not doing so is a sure path to totalitarianism and loss of individual freedom. You can choose otherwise, but you and those that think like you will not prevail in the end, at least not in the United States.

  41. Trump's statements and proposals? by quantaman · · Score: 2

    Trump's policy statements are barely more relevant than they were during the Apprentice. Just look at what happened with health care, it's the congressional republicans driving legislation and Trump is essentially tweeting randomly based on clips he saw on TV.

    Now, when it comes to tax policy his personal beliefs, give rich people a tax cut, are in line with Republicans as a whole, and he might actually push a specific policy because it personally affects him. But I don't think he has the basic competency to impose that view on congress. Paul Ryan's view is the one that really matters.

    --
    I stole this Sig
    1. Re:Trump's statements and proposals? by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

      ..and Paul Ryan can go fuck himself - several times over!

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
  42. Far from rich by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Everyone's favorite tax is the one someone else pays and everyone's favorite government expense is the one that directly benefits them.

    The biggest problem with health care in this country is that most people think someone else should pay for theirs even if they smoke, drink, take drugs as recreation, eat massive amounts of sugar and fat instead of vegetables, and don't exercise.

    I am far from rich but I have spent the last few decades not contributing to health problems, and living within my means. I'll be Ok but we do need to increase taxes on those who are rich because to much money is going to the top as wages and benefits decline. The unlimited immigration lobby (Dems) wants us to compete for lower and lower wages and the unlimited business practice lobby (Repubs) wants us to pay top dollar for everything with limited competition in markets.

  43. But there _IS_ an easy solution by s.petry · · Score: 1

    Taxes should be flat and based on percentage of income and assets. Yet in the US (I can't speak for the UK) we have over 80,000 pages of tax code to benefit the wealthy and punish everyone else who earns money. Middle class people can't afford to read through the tax codes or hire legal staffs to do so for them, only the wealthy can (and that means the very wealthy, because a millionaire can't afford to either).

    Taxes are one of several reasons for the revolt in the 13 colonies and founding of a new country called the USA. The slogan "No Taxation without Representation!" should ring a bell to anyone who studied US History (sorry if you went to US public schools and missed that course). The "average" person certainly lacks representation in their State and US Federal Governments.

    The Middle class already pay near 30% of their wages to Federal tax, and depending on the State another 10-20% in income tax, property tax, and sales taxes. This doesn't include taxes on gasoline, taxes on utilities, taxes on phone services, taxes on internet services, and various "fees" the State imposes on public property and services such as vehicle registration, license fees, and usage charges for roads.

    If anything, the taxes on the wealthy should be higher than lower income earners. As Socrates pointed out in the Republic, that would prevent them from screwing with Government to get more simply because of what they have and ensure that the best remain productive.

    --

    -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

  44. So? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As someone who almost makes this (135); go ahead, tax me more..... If you aren't using it to start wars and built shit for the military.

    Tax me more if you are going to use it to get rid of homelessness, cut education costs, introduce single-payer healthcare, etc.

    1. Re:So? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thanks. I'm going to use your tax money for a sex change operation.

    2. Re:So? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And I'm gonna use it to buy red soda water while I'm young then get free dialysis treatment when I'm older. Awesome!

    3. Re: So? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Jokes on you; dialysis is already free in the US

  45. Fine then I won't by anything by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yeah, taxing the class that has expendable income is a great idea ... for the rich. Tax me more, now I will just hoard cash. I won't spend it. So now the economy gets hurt and we have more inflation. Their is no great answer but a large death tax (no more passing down a lot of wealth) and do not allow people to deduct mortgages over a certain limit is probably an easier ones to get passed. Sorry but buying a X million dollar home so you can write off the mortgage is just not a good idea especially if the markets go down then the banks are left holding the bag again.

  46. If Pres. Donald Trump sticks to what he has said by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    - on day 1 in office, building starts on the great Mexican wall
    - on day 2 in office, Obamacare is repealed
    - on day 3 in office, Hillary Clinton is sent to jail
    - on day 4 in office, the US are purged of terrorists
    - on day 5 in office, outsourced jobs return to American soil
    - on day 6 in office, taxes will be lowered for everybody
    - on day 7 in office, the US and Russia sign new peace treaty

  47. Same HYPOTHETICAL analysis as last fall by SpammersAreScum · · Score: 1

    I really don't see why the above summary says certain categories will pay more. The TPC article (yeah, yeah) shows negative numbers for ALL quintiles, with the top one of course having the by far largest %.

    This, by the way, is one of the reasons why they were desperately trying to pass a "Health Care" bill which -- even with a giveaway to the rich of its own -- was intended to cost less so they had $ to balance against lost income here.

    Note that the article says they used the same 10/25/35% brackets Trump proposed last fall. He did not specify the actual brackets and still hasn't. So this is somewhat speculative.

    That said, anything with a lowered top rate, and the removal of the AMT and Inheritance Tax, will help the wealthy immensely. This is what we should be pushing back on.

  48. We could pay off the national debt by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    In 10 years with the savings from single payer healthcare. Seriously, google the cost savings. Insurance is robbing us blind

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re:We could pay off the national debt by MooseMiester · · Score: 1

      The government has never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever SAVED on ANYTHING ever.

      In government speak a "surplus" or a "saving" is "We planned to spend $1 we didn't have, but only spent 50 cents we didn't have, so we have a surplus of 50 cents" NO YOU SPENT FIFTY CENTS YOU DO NOT HAVE.

      --
      Murphy was an optimist
  49. Fake News.... by Tulsa_Time · · Score: 1

    Speculation designed to inflame...

    Call me when you grow up Slashdot...

    --
    5 out of 6 people enjoy Russian Roulette & 6 out of 7 Dwarfs are not Happy
  50. any studies based on the actual verbal content of by unami · · Score: 1

    are not really to be taken serious - like anything trump ever said.

  51. It depends on where you are. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Comparing the UK and the US is a bit disingenuous. 150K/year in India would make you quite wealthy, too, but is immaterial to your standard of living in the US, or Britain. 150K in the US is alot in Peoria, much less in Silly Valley. Mid-career engineers in California routinely make 150+; some of the other tech centers aren't far behind. The people making those salaries certainly aren't poor, but above middle-class ? Not really.

  52. Only the idiots on /. would mod truth to -1 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    This site is a fucking disgrace, like Digg and reddit.

  53. $150K is middle class in citified areas by clay_buster · · Score: 1

    Correction. An income of $150000 for a family of four is "easy streets" IF:

    ... 4. You live in an area where the standard cost of living is at par or less with the income.

    4.1 You do not live in any urban area with decent services and and a decent set of work options

  54. Solution: cut the programs; all of em;military too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you cut all the social programs and all the excess military spending taxes would drop to near zero. The problem is people want their senior citizen center, public school, parks, roads, police, fire department, and so on, but don't want to pay for it. Well, if you're forced to pay for these things directly you'll be able to decide which of these things are most important to you. Personally I have no problem paying for security services. Unfortunately 70% of our wealth is stolen from us all via hidden fees and taxes. It's not just what you know that gets stolen, it's what you don't know about that makes up that 70%. You end up having 15% for example stolen indirectly on top of another 15% they tell you about. The hidden 15% is what your employer pays. Then there is another 7-25% (varies depending on where you live) sales / VAT tax. Then there are the vehicular registration fees (some places this is high, hundreds of dollars or more a year). Then you have the property taxes. You rent? Guess what. Your paying these taxes too indirectly through your landlord. Just because you're not aware of the taxes doesn't mean they don't exist or don't add up to 70% or more of your potential wealth.

  55. Silicon Valley by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I guess those poor "poor" people in Silicon Valley will be homeless. This is fuckedup first world problems. You make that much money, "Good news! You make 150K+!" Count your fucking blessings dumb asses.

    1. Re: Silicon Valley by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The cost of living for what i make now, to live the same in SF, I'd have to make 220k; i make slightly over 130. I agree, 150 is a lot; but you can't forget about a locations col

  56. Thanks Warren Buffet! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Anybody can pay more taxes by making a donation to the IRS.

    But those liberal elite rich folk and Warren Buffet with their armies of tax accountants say jack up everyone's tax, they need to pay more!

    And they harness their tax people to pay less.

    Good job.

  57. I'm safe from this --- thanks, Obama. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm nowhere near $150k so I will *not* be affected by this tax increase, however, I was affected by Obama's economic downturn and have been making very little money up until two months ago. So I thank you, Obama, [sarcasm]

  58. Taxes != Tech by Ebsolas · · Score: 1

    How did this make it on Slashdot? For the most part I'm willing to deal with politics that relates with technology on this site but this doesn't have anything to do with anything.

    1. Re:Taxes != Tech by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Someone above pointed out that the low end of the range ($150K) is conveniently the high end range for H1-B Visas (you know, import cheap labor from India because supposedly there aren't enough skilled workers in the United States -- or at least not enough skilled workers willing to work for minimum wage), so in a way it involves tech.

  59. What trickles down must first bubble up. by bobwyman · · Score: 1
    • What trickles down must first bubble up.
    • For wealth to accumulate, more must bubble up than trickles down.
    • Tax cuts on low and middle incomes cause more to bubble up and allow more wealth to be accumulated.
    • If the rich want more wealth, they should fight for tax cuts on low and middle incomes.
    • In any case, today, the wealthy do not pay their fair share for the government services and public goods that they consume.
    • A man can be poor with little help from government or society but the wealthy would not be so wealthy without government services and public goods.
  60. Trickle everywhere by ebvwfbw · · Score: 1

    If it's Reaganomics, it's trickle everywhere. Everyone benefited from his economic package. We saw the largest expansion of the economy the world had ever seen. It worked really well. The left can't stand it though. There will always be poor and there's nothing that can be done for some people.

    1. Re:Trickle everywhere by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      Is that before or after the Easter Bunny had babies with Santa Claus? As long as you're making shit up for an alternate universe, might as well go all out.

    2. Re:Trickle everywhere by ebvwfbw · · Score: 1

      Before being such a smart ass, why don't you bother to look some of it up? I'm not making it up. It's fact.

    3. Re:Trickle everywhere by ebvwfbw · · Score: 1

      Here, read this - http://www.nytimes.com/1990/01...

      Smack yourself in the face. Wake up.

    4. Re:Trickle everywhere by ebvwfbw · · Score: 1

      Here's another article - https://www.forbes.com/sites/p...
      I could go on and on and on. Stop believing the leftist press. Did you know *ANYONE* can be a news reporter? At colleges if you flunk out of everything, you can STILL go into journalism. They're the dumbest of the dumb.

    5. Re:Trickle everywhere by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      I'm not making it up. It's fact.

      It's a fact you're as batshit delusional as a Clintonite who insists that NAFTA and bank deregulation were great for the working class, because reasons.

    6. Re:Trickle everywhere by ebvwfbw · · Score: 1

      I'm not making it up. It's fact.

      It's a fact you're as batshit delusional as a Clintonite who insists that NAFTA and bank deregulation were great for the working class, because reasons.

      I can assure you, I'm not delusional. When I take political tests, I'm almost exactly right in the center, even for the 2 dimensional tests. I make a living bringing the truth to people that often don't want the truth. You may be in that category. So it's very important to me that I'm right. I'm on very firm ground or I wouldn't say it.

      I didn't believe it at first either. Then I heard it on the radio and then looked it up, analyzed it and learned. You can too, the data is out there. It's amazing how we've been really lied to. Like pants on fire lied to. I bet you don't even know that we were paying off the debt in the late 1990s to the point that we were given a rebate during the first year of GW Bush's administration. The Republicans held Clinton's feet to the fire to force him to do what was right by shutting down the government for weeks on end (Republican's contract with America). Clinton said to remember to blame the Republicans. Then when it worked he said - it happened during his administration, as if he had something to do with it. About as much as Johnson did with the civil rights act that he kept defeating, because he was really racist. All in history. Still, dumb blacks think he helped them. He'd help them put their head in a noose if he had half a chance.

      Your comment on a Clintonite is funny, though I doubt you'll ever appreciate it to the level that I do since I lived through Johnson, Nixon, Carter, Reagan... Clinton... and So far Trump. Nafta wasn't even Clinton's baby by the way. He signed it very early on in his Presidency and it was ironic to see him take punches over it. What's hilarious would be for me to play for you some of his speaches from 1993. You'd probably swear they were Trumps. Illegals, economy, all the way down to Clinton nearly went to war with Korea in 1993. I remember during Reagan's term how great things were. I used to double my salary every year. I went from barely a dime to my name during Carter's years to over 80K IN THE BANK by 1988. Those were the days. Looks like those days may be returning.

      Do yourself a favor, look it up. Economic figures. Imports, Exports, Crime, Employment, productivity, etc. Keep in mind they changed GDP during Obama's term BTW to lie to us more. They also moved welfare people to food stamps to lie to us more. I'm asking you to put it together because if I do it for you, you either won't believe it or you'll never retain it to be able to speak to anyone else about it. You really do have to do the work.

      Thing is, you have Americanism and Progressiveism. Progressives are statists. They want to control everything. Hasn't worked anywhere in the world. Regulate, control, etc. Americanism isn't that. It's letting you be free. Ideas of Hamilton, Milton Friedman, etc. Do you want to be free and prosperous or live like dirt, like in Venezuela, Cuba, etc. Mark Levin has some real good books on this stuff. Rediscovering Americanism, Liberty and tyranny, Plunder and Deceit, etc. Let the truth set you free.

  61. New budget? by ebvwfbw · · Score: 1

    Wow, do all of you realize this will be the first budget since GW Bush? Obama couldn't manage to pass one himself. I think he's the only one in history that wasn't able to pass a budget.

  62. Re:Solution: cut the programs; all of em;military by Uberbah · · Score: 3, Insightful

    So you want taxes to pay for things that benefit you personally, and screw everything (and everyone) else. Typical libertarian.

  63. the rich by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Anyone who makes more than me is rich.

    No politician will ever stumble and actually define what it means to be middle class.