Slashdot Mirror
Silicon Valley Says Trump Plan To Reduce Immigration Will Hurt Economy (cbslocal.com)
An anonymous reader quotes a report from CBS Local: President Donald Trump's push to cut legal immigration to the United States in half is being met by opposition from Silicon Valley leaders, economists, and even some Republicans senators, who all say legal immigration is key to economic prosperity. The Trump administration Wednesday endorsed the Reforming American Immigration for a Strong Economy Act or RAISE Act, a Senate bill introduced by two Republican senators earlier this year, that aims to cut all U.S. immigration in half. Business leaders, especially those in California's tech industry, say the bill will stymie their ability to fill jobs and grow the U.S. economy. California's economy is the sixth largest in the world and many attribute that success, in part, to immigration. The Information Technology Industry Council, which represents companies including Amazon, Apple, Adobe, Dell, Facebook, Hewlett-Packard, Google, Visa, Nokia, and Microsoft railed against the bill.
Dean Garfield, President and CEO of the council said, "This is not the right proposal to fix our immigration system because it does not address the challenges tech companies face, injects more bureaucratic dysfunction, and removes employers as the best judge of the employee merits they need to succeed and grow the U.S. economy." Garfield argues that the tech industry cannot find enough STEM-skilled Americans to fill open positions and that U.S. immigration policy "stops us from keeping the best and brightest innovators here in the U.S. and instead we lose out to our overseas competitors."
Dean Garfield, President and CEO of the council said, "This is not the right proposal to fix our immigration system because it does not address the challenges tech companies face, injects more bureaucratic dysfunction, and removes employers as the best judge of the employee merits they need to succeed and grow the U.S. economy." Garfield argues that the tech industry cannot find enough STEM-skilled Americans to fill open positions and that U.S. immigration policy "stops us from keeping the best and brightest innovators here in the U.S. and instead we lose out to our overseas competitors."
Hurts it MORE.
If we couldn't outsource their jobs (and actually get them done, which is a problem with outsourcing) and we couldn't import cheap labor from overseas, we'd have to pay programmers over $200K/year. And that would be terrible, because
Oh. Never mind.
Bruce Perens.
Of course SV will be against, they have a huge conflict of interest in the matter. They keep importing under-paid code monkey who accept to work 70h a week in constant stressful environment with no job security, while firing and discriminating against older, more pragmatic, american staffers.
Whatever this guy takes in his hands fails or even worse - endangers others. 100 % system failure and no "checks and balances" for this situation built-in.
Bummer!
A San Francisco station is reporting Trump policy is making some people upset? I'm -shocked-.
because not all immigrants are alike.
People bringing with them cold hard cash, and spending them in USA = boon for the economy
People bringing nothing, and actually sending whatever money they make back to their original country to feed their relatives back home = drain on the economy
People with skills who produce wealth = boon for the economy
People with no marketable skill who collect entitlements = drain on the economy
It hurts their ability to grow the economy? Oh, boo hoo, they have to pay more for American workers.
If a handful of American salaries turns your project from a profit to a loss, you are running on razor-thin margins to begin with. Maybe your company should be doing something else instead.
On the other hand, if you're making a decent profit and just want more---get fucked. Public policy doesn't need to hand out special benefits to successful businesses. Right now, the middle class needs a little more help than the shareholders.
Real immigration means coming over here, making a life, and investing long-term in the well-being of this country. The H1B program isn't immigration; it's indentured servitude V2.0
---
According to the latest ruleset, this post should be modded as Vorpal Flamebait +5.
but I'm pretty sure neither Trump nor any American citizen* has any issues with LEGAL Immigration. Go through the steps, do it right and we'll welcome you right in.
It's the illegal variety that we have issues with. Those people should be deported. Just like what would happen if I entered any other country illegally.
*Unless you're a member of the Klan or similar group.
Trump-hating liberals oppose something that Trump supports. I may die of shock.
Proud neuron in the Slashdot hivemind since 2002.
Economy.
Sent as ripples into the electromagnetic field. No single photon has been harmed in the process.
except they'll have to pay them more.
Fat, drunk, and stupid is no way to go through life, son.
Has't this sort of thing been heard before?
Modern American politician : "The economy cannot survive without immigrants"
Ancient Greek politician : "Civilisation cannot survive without slavery"
Like, let's say Jeff Immelt of GE (who has resigned). You have two choices:
1. Expensive, fairly well qualified software engineering talent in the US
2. Dirt cheap, mixed bag talent overseas
Which do you pick? If the choice was either/or, most would choose #1, but as price competition heats up and Wall Street (and your board) beat you up for increasing and meeting your company's earnings target, practically all CEOs would opt for a mix of #1 and #2, with a shift towards #2 over time (IBM is a great example).
But with H-1Bs there's a third option. Offices in the US, staffed mostly by expensive, native US talent, but supplemented by cheaper (but not dirt cheap) talent from overseas, most of which are at least somewhat qualified. That's a choice that can allow companies to keep IT offices open in the US, since the operating costs are lower than they would've been otherwise. So it's not necessarily the case that H-1B reduces native-born US IT employment.
No sympathy here.
There are definitely times that there are some specialized skilled people that are amazing and can be used to advance the company further.
But that's like 1%. I mean do they literally stick their fingers in their ears and go lalalalala when someone points out like Disney hiring cheap outsourcing and forcing hired paid employees to train their replacements?
That's at all it is, they just want the bare minimum who can do the job they can get way cheaper since it's still better living standards than in their own country.
Bringing ours down, theirs up, and the middle man taking a chunk of the exchange increasing their life quality is the 1% elite.
Everytime they lay off IT workers and hire outsourced IT, in other countries, then talk about how it would be bad to stop allowing them to hire foreign workers, *ears in finger* lalalalalalala.
Do not care. You fucked up. Taking all the wealth, redistributing it to the top 1%, and countries outside the US.
So much brainwashing. It hurts already to read such comments on FB posts, or Yahoo News comment section, but here, which is supposed to be a website for educated IT people ... dreadful.
Sillly Valley's idea of immigration is cheap labor - labor arbitrage.
Economics is about immigration and having people work their way into society and our economy - regardless of skills.
And since our economy is based on consumption and subsequently an increasing populating, we better let'em in.
And since our social safety nets are based upon an increasing size of the workforce; we let'em in.
Otherwise, the days of collecting Social Security while driving your $500K Land Yacht to your second home in Florida is gone - well, it's gone for everyone born after 1965.
The skill requirement makes it practically a carbon copy of Australia and Canada: your ability to enter is a function of your knowledge of the local language (English, or in Canada's case English or French), skills, education level, and ability to get a job. They want people who are useful to the country and can fit in.
The difference is the path to legal citizenship in those commonwealth countries is once you've lived/worked there for 5 years or so, citizenship opportunity. No country of origin quotas or green card queues which encourage queue-jumping, visa overstays and under-the-table work. This second part should be copied as well.
Plenty of opportunities here. And no Trump.
Funny thing is... this proposed plan would move US immigration policy closer to that of Canada and the EU, with more emphasis on prioritizing immigrants with particular skills and/or some level of wealth.
#DeleteChrome
Silicon Valley Says Trump Plan To Reduce Immigration Will Hurt Tech Company Profits.
There. Fixed.
I'm a Canadian in the US who's had a TN, then an H-1B, and now I have a green card. I have a Ph.D. in a highly sought-after technical field and I'm holding down a pretty good job here in the States, doing something specialized related to my academic work. There aren't enough Americans with my specialty nor enough Canadian jobs requiring it for it to make sense for me to "go back home" - it's not in anyone's interest.
Even with the strong tailwinds of Canadian-ness and a useful high education, it's not exactly straightforward to get your green card. There are background and medical checks, as well as pretty long waiting periods due to H-1B quotas and other administrative delays. It's much harder for friends of mine from India with *only* a Master's degree, who have to wait for something like 15 YEARS before they're able to get a green card. The uncertainty this breeds can be a real hardship, and I think it's unnecessarily cruel to ask good people who contribute more than they're paid to have to endure anything more than a few years of probation.
Moreover, getting my wife's parents enrolled in local healthcare looks like a complete non-starter, and while we'd like my daughter's grandparents to be able to visit with us for more of the year, they can't because of silly immigration and healthcare rules. Who knows how much more of this we're going to choose as a family?
I'm always disheartened how fellow Slashdotters often plump for more regulations impeding the freedom of people to live where they are wanted and loved. I understand there might be some folks who think that immigrants hurt American workers, but that's a tough stance to take when unemployment is so low. I also think most immigrants are not going to parts of America where jobs are scarce.
So, have a heart or a brain, and sympathize with the pro-immigration bunch on either humanitarian or economic grounds. I know it's in the American DNA to embrace the hard-working foreigner wanting something better, and now's a great time to grow the economy by admitting those willing to work for the wages offered here.
Expected time to finish is 1 hour and 60 minutes.
Whats dreadful, is the willful ignorance of the "to be conquered"... When you end up with NOGO zones, you are being CURRENTLY conquered. Its the NEW invasion tactic. You just CHOOSE to ignore or deny this. That does not mean it isn't happening and isn't a reality for MANY non-Muslims facing an invading force, unwilling to assimilate... You can go on Youtube or dozens of other places, and listen to HUNDREDS of Muslim Imams state OPENLY that they are using the Refugee crisis in Europe to INFILTRATE and commit acts of terrorism in the western world. Hell, they are PROUD of it... Anyone denying that Radical Islam is a problem for the western world still, just isn't paying attention to world events. Period. As a technician of 27 years, and someone who spends 15-20 hours a day online, doing research, across the web... I can tell you that the sampling I take as far as information, spans BOTH sides of the debate. Unfortunately, facts are facts, and they don't support the "Religion of Peace" that Islam keeps telling us they are all about. More like the "Religion of Pieces" As several European leaders have quoted...
Eat a dick
Comment removed based on user account deletion
This is not the right proposal to fix our immigration system because it does not address the challenges tech companies face, injects more bureaucratic dysfunction, and removes employers as the best judge of the employee merits they need to succeed and grow the U.S. economy." Garfield argues that the tech industry cannot find enough STEM-skilled Americans to fill open positions and that U.S. immigration policy "stops us from keeping the best and brightest innovators here in the U.S. and instead we lose out to our overseas competitors."
Translated: "Where the fuck are we going to get our cheap programmers????"
Don't break laws and your green card won't get revoked. Simple as that!
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
If you hold a green card in the US for 5 years you too can become a US citizen. So the same basic "path" at Australia and Canada. We just don't have their common-sense point system - yet.
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
"removes employers as the best judge of the employee merits they need to succeed"
You mean all those Indian managers, who once get a management spot, only hire other Indians? yea, it'd be a shame if they couldn't hire only other Indians.
I'm sorry but I've personally seen this multiple times in multiple places and it's no longer funny. I've had to deal with the bugs and blame-game that comes from this favouritism so much it's downright aggravating.
Yes, I know not all Indians are like this, and it's not just Indians, but there are enough that are, that's it's troubling.
And this isn't even talking about the sweatshop problem that other posters have mentioned.
still... what's the problem about grabbing them by the pussy if you have consent ?
Yes, some businesses will have to pay more for their labor. However the benefits to the citizens will be immense.
Benefits like... having to pay more for product and services?
Labor is an input cost which affects the price consumers pay. Immigration restrictions are basically an implicit tax. No thanks.
Silicon Valley here you go, (opens giant bag of dicks) help yourself. Please go fuck yourself.
it's not exactly straightforward to get your green card. There are background and medical checks, as well as pretty long waiting periods due to H-1B quotas and other administrative delays. It's much harder for friends of mine from India with *only* a Master's degree, who have to wait for something like 15 YEARS before they're able to get a green card. The uncertainty this breeds can be a real hardship, and I think it's unnecessarily cruel to ask good people who contribute more than they're paid to have to endure anything more than a few years of probation.
Yeah, people who don't have experience with the bureaucracy don't appreciate the PITA it is. They only see current green card and visa holders in their workplace, and assume it was a piece of cake. Selection bias.
When I worked at a startup, we had a solid candidate that we just couldn't hire because we didn't have the resources available to handle the immigration obstacle course. Though he was the best fit, we'd have to hire additional resource just to hire the guy we wanted for the position, not to mention the delay in getting the position filled. Our money and people resources were tight, and unfortunately, we had to fill the position with someone less-qualified, but legal to work.
> "employers as the best judge of the employee merits they need to succeed and grow the U.S. economy"
"employee merits" being, cheap labor willing to work killer hours, terrified of being fired. I mean, what employer wouldn't want that?
"grow the U.S. economy" being, grow the net worth of US-based companies.
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
Yeah, you tell 'em brother, because nothing like that would ever happen in the United States. No religion would carve out its own enclave in this country or force women to submit to its "teachings". Nor would they harass girls or demand their religious take precedence.
Seriously.
It's basically "have job prospects", and "know english well enough to get by".
How the fuck is that going to hurt the economy?
Because they can't hire stupid, illiterate illegals for pennies on the dollar to watch their kids and clean their homes/offices?
BOO FUCKIN' HOO!
And Silicon Valley. One of the most overheated real estate markets on the planet?
Where are these poor schlubs going to live? You expect them to commute from what? OREGON?
These people need to pull their heads out of their a^H^H^SAFE SPACES...and take a look at the really real world...
Because their attachment to fantasy is destroying them and trying to take the state and country down as well.
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
Actually, it has exactly the immigration policy I think it has.
The article you linked to is not about immigration policy. It is a flame-bait piece railing against supposed rampant illegal immigration and decrying how some Canadian cities are declaring themselves "Sanctuary Cities", which in the author's opinion is apparently sending Canada down the toilet. But, even so, that article briefly mentions how "Our rules are tough but fair, they’re applied evenly and they focus on bringing the best people to Canada and benefiting all Canadians."
#DeleteChrome
No, Europe just has communists, fascists, socialists, and Christian conservatives in pretty much every European parliament. European politicians don't even rise up to the level of Trump, having spent their entire careers on nothing else than brown nosing within their respective party hierarchies, utterly unaccomplished at anything else. And it's not like European politicians deliver the goods: if European nations were US states, they would mostly be at or below the poorest US states, but with the liberties and opportunities that Americans enjoy.
But by all means, American progressives, do go to Europe and integrate into those societies; but don't do so keeping your US citizenship as a safety net, because that's cheating.
I'm right there with you, my friend. A good number of my friends are expats that have struggled against the American legal immigration system. A couple have even given up and tried to start over in other countries because of how onerous and stressful it is to try to become a permanent resident and then citizen here. One of my closest friends fled Iran and managed to get asylum here because she's a gay woman and was living under threat of imprisonment or forced gender reassignment in her country of birth. She has been working for years to make it possible for her parents to come live with her in the US, but the hostility that our current government is displaying to Iranian-born individuals makes it almost totally impossible now. Her parents were recently denied a tourist visa to visit their daughter as they had done in years past, with the US State Department interviewer immediately reject their application and referring to their daughter with homophobic slurs.
A lot of smart people unfortunately have very very wrong, closed-minded ideas about multiculturalism and humanism. We're seeing so much ugliness come out of the woodwork now that these sorts of xenophobic ideas are being embraced by the public face of our government.
I emigrated from Europe and still spend part of the year there. Anybody who thinks that Europe is something for the US to emulate is a bloody fool. Europe is a fun place for American expats to hang out, but that's mostly because as an American expat, you're rich and privileged compared to Europeans.
Just deport the Silicon Valley crowd & their minions to Bangalore, and let them have all the foreign workers that they want there. They'll then either enjoy the lower costs, or realize why US workers are worth more
Don't they have to be citizens in order to be able to vote for Trump?
By expats, the only people you can mean are the Hollywood crowd - the Johnny Depps of the world! Incidentally, when will Hollywood fulfil their promise and move from Beverley Hills to Paris, Milan, Majorca, Nice and all those other lovely places?
I'd pick Russia any day. The other day, read about a group of Muslim rapefugees who were dropped by the Norwegians into Murmansk. They tried doing their usual stuff, and got beaten up by the Russians. If the Russkies had any sense, they'd have subsequently flown them to Turkmenistan. One thing Stalin did well - deport the Crimean Tatars to Uzbekistan.
Say what you want about Putin, or for that matter, the Russians, but they know how to deal with Muslims. Having historically had to live w/ the Tatars doing things like burning down Moscow on 2 occasions, the Kazakhs raiding their borders and taking slaves & raping women, and the Chechens. Which is why Europe is pretty clueless on how to handle them, but Russia ain't.
Most interesting thing I notice - even while the former Warsaw Pact countries are doing everything to distance themselves from Russia and ingratiate themselves w/ Europe, there is one place where they draw the line: throwing open their countries to Muslim rapefugees. Which is why, even while in Germany, there are signs in public places in Arabic telling people not to grope women, none of that has had to happen in places like Krakow, Bratislava, Timisoara, Ostrava or other such places. And people of Western Europe are just looking at them in envy, while the EU is fuming at them being relative rape free zones.
Yeah, totally true. That's why Trump carried California so overwhelmingly in 2016, and will again in 2020.
NOGO zones? So you are telling me there aren't "hoods" in the US which the police would rather avoid?
Well, the Johnny Depps of the world, plus the wannabes, has-beens, and academics. Another common group of American expats are a subset of the nouveau riche who think they can assimilate culture and status in Europe by osmosis.
Well, LA County does have 44% more registered voters than it does actual citizens, so yeah, he probably did carry the state when you remove all the illegal pukes
Since Silicon Valley is informing us that we've hit the target, double down on any measures against guest workers.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
Thank you. I see now, there is hope. More logic, less hipster metro emo.
Top 100 H1B Visa employers (companies who profit through the program): https://www.myvisajobs.com/Rep...
...
#16 Amazon
#22 Apple
#60 Dell
#33 Facebook
#100 HP
#12 Google
# 9 Microsoft
You seem like an Anti-Semite... Jew Hate Much?
I can walk through the hood all day. Hell, I have friends who live in the hood. I was BORN in Chicago... But I wouldn't even THINK about entering a Nogo Zone, after seeing reporters Beaten, Stabbed, and Shot at... All Over Youtube. Greatest thing about the modern era, CAMERAS DON'T LIE. Even when the people holding them DO...
No one alleging widespread voting fraud has ever been able to substantiate that claim. To a first approximation, it does not happen in this country. No one has ever lost money betting on the credulity of the American public, but it's surprising to see so many people willing to believe something that is literally the opposite of reality.
Those who advocate genocide deserve every protection afforded by law, and none afforded by common human decency.
GDP has NOT doubled, 1.1 million jobs in each of half-years under Obama, WHERE do you get these lies?
2.6% growth? Obama had that for FOURTEEN, repeat 14 CONSECUTIVE QUARTERS and 2.9% in the last of his quarters. GROW UP!
Oops, that is supposed to read "each of FOUR half-years"
Less success, less gain in employment, LOWER wealth thanks to a shrinking dollar.
"Lowest in 24 years", WHO IS IN CHARGE WHILE THIS IS HAPPENING?
Yep, the failed Republicans.
The Trump administration simply wants to change legal immigration in the following ways:
End chain immigration,
Require immigrants to speak English,
Have a useful skill to offer,
And not participate in welfare programs.
I'm confused, is Silicon Valley, let alone the us economy, really so dependent on skill-less immigrants that can't speak English and that require welfare assistance?
These proposed policies are consistent with Canadian and Australian immigration policies, how do their economies manage?
Oh wait, I get it - Trump didn't propose the Australian or Canadian immigration policies, so they are OK...
Ken
If you hold a green card in the US for 5 years you too can become a US citizen [uscis.gov]. So the same basic "path" at Australia and Canada. We just don't have their white supremacist racist white cis/hetero-normative point system - yet.
FTFY.
The problem is getting the green card in the first place, that is where quotas and queues come into play. A few Indian co-workers here on H1Bs are more likely to be sponsored by their children when they become of age to become citizens, than to get a green card based on continuous stay. Meanwhile a co-worker from a European country got his green card after staying five years.
Yeah, but that would be illegals who are pro-Democrat. GP was talking about legal i.e. law abiding immigrants who are either H1Bs or Green Card holders, but not citizens. And since they are pro-Trump, why would the Dems try to get them to vote? Particularly since only 3 were 'Hispanics', and most of them were Chinese - a group that tends GOP, even in CA
Expel Indians to get back your jobs http://www.petition2congress.c...
Casteism
http://www.petition2congress.c...
Casteism
Tier 3 VETO
Casteism
No, that was you.
And it was obviously done deliberately.
Why do you think such deceptive behaviour is acceptable when you clearly will not put up with very much at all from the "SJW's"?
More than that, it means focusing on importing exactly the people SV wants! This is illogical to the point of absurdity. Nay, insanity!
As a technician of 27 years, and someone who spends 15-20 hours a day online, doing research, across the web. .
This may be your problem, quit online, go in real life. Meet with muslims, meet with refugees. Travel a little, that never hurts.
Also there is no such thing as "NOGO zones". And i'll quote wikipedia on this topic.
In January 2015, after the Charlie Hebdo shooting in Paris, various American media, including the news cable channels Fox News and CNN, described the existence of no-go zones across Europe and in France in particular, or featured guests that referred to them. In some cases, the French areas termed "sensitive urban zones" were described as no-go zones. Both networks were criticized for these statements, and anchors on both networks later apologized for the characterizations. The mayor of Paris, Anne Hidalgo, said that she intended to sue Fox News for its statements.
Main point here being "Fox news" and "CNN", two networks that extensively prooved accross the years that they barely know where Europe is.