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'Quark Fusion' Produces Eight Times More Energy Than Nuclear Fusion (futurism.com)

walterbyrd shares a report from Futurism: This new source of energy, according to researchers Marek Karliner and Jonathan Rosner, comes from the fusion of subatomic particles known as quarks. These particles are usually produced as a result of colliding atoms that move at high speeds within the Large Hadron Collider (LHC), where these component parts split from their parent atoms. It doesn't stop there, however, as these disassociated quarks also tend to collide with one another and fuse into particles called baryons. It is this fusion of quarks that Karliner and Rosner focused on, as they found that this fusion is capable of producing energy even greater than what's produced in hydrogen fusion. In particular, they studied how fused quarks configure into what's called a doubly-charmed baryon. Fusing quarks require 130 MeV to become doubly-charmed baryons, which, in turn, releases energy that's 12 MeV more energy. Turning their calculations to heavier bottom quarks, which need 230 MeV to fuse, they found that a resulting baryon could produce approximately 138 MeV of net energy -- about eight times more than what hydrogen fusion releases. The new study has been published in the journal Nature.

82 of 173 comments (clear)

  1. 8x more powerful X zero chain reaction = 0 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    The ability to generate sufficient quarks for such a thing to be sustaining is decades to centuries off but it's nice to know how it works.

    1. Re: 8x more powerful X zero chain reaction = 0 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      We have to get more people buying these large hadron colliders! When the price goes down everyone will get one put in their backyard and we will all be rolling in the quarks.

    2. Re: 8x more powerful X zero chain reaction = 0 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      If I'm going to be rolling in the Quarks, will I be a Top or a Bottom? I'm already considered a bit Strange, and without any Charm. But those are the Ups and Downs of walking around with a Hadron all the time.

    3. Re:8x more powerful X zero chain reaction = 0 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      How dare you question the mantra of endless progress! We have millions of times more computing power than in the 1960s! Just look at how everything else progressed!

      We live in the same houses, drive on the same roads, with cars that go the same speed driving on the same tires, while airplanes fly at the same height and speed burning the same fuel!

      See? Endless progress! This means the glorious 3D printed private-space asteroid-mined quark-fused warp drive is JUST AROUND THE CORNER!

      Look at how many cores my laptop has (and curiously is brought to its knees every four hours because a web browser needs to wade through gigabytes of temporary files!)

    4. Re:8x more powerful X zero chain reaction = 0 by thegreatbob · · Score: 4, Funny

      Quark Fusion; it shall always be 200 years off from becoming a commercially viable power source.

      --
      There is no XUL, only WebExtensions...
    5. Re:8x more powerful X zero chain reaction = 0 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Seriously though, we've pretty much always known the heaver bottom ones put out more. This isn't really news.

    6. Re:8x more powerful X zero chain reaction = 0 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      someone is still bitter about not getting their jetpack

    7. Re: 8x more powerful X zero chain reaction = 0 by Opportunist · · Score: 2

      Found the strange one.

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      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    8. Re:8x more powerful X zero chain reaction = 0 by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      The problem for a lot of these is a lack of clean, safe and cheap energy.
      We got dependent of fossil fuels which are dirty, mostly safe and currently cheap.
      This in general limited our progress in transportation because any faster or less fuel efficient the dirty part of the fuel will have more of a cost then a benefit. We are already paying for the cost now except for a few idiots who want to ignore the problem of the world.

      --
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  2. Re:Hooray! Bigger bombs! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    100MT should be enough for anyone.

  3. When do I get my flying Delorean? by RogueWarrior65 · · Score: 1

    This should be enough power, right?

    1. Re:When do I get my flying Delorean? by mark-t · · Score: 1

      138 MeV is only about 2*10^-11 joules of energy.

      For comparison, a typical AA battery has about 13,000 joules of energy when bought off the shelf.

    2. Re:When do I get my flying Delorean? by slack_justyb · · Score: 2

      Correct the single reaction is only 138 MeV. The whole point is that a single gram of material provides 6.02*10^23 reactions. That's 1.186 * 10^13 joules. 6.3 * 10^13 is roughly the energy in the Hiroshima bomb. However, I can be wrong about that, that's some serious back of the napkin math on a process I haven't really read up on, but it is Avogadro's number for the molar mass of a gram of hydrogen. Point being, while a single reaction is very weak, a single gram of material provides a massive amount of chances for a reaction.

  4. Oh, Great! by freeze128 · · Score: 4, Funny

    This means that ubiquitous fusion energy is 50 years away again!

    1. Re:Oh, Great! by Trailer+Trash · · Score: 2

      This means that ubiquitous fusion energy is 50 years away again!

      Even better yet, we'll have 8 times as much fusion energy in 50 years!

    2. Re:Oh, Great! by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      I'm using fusion power right now. It powers my car!

      No need to build more, the one we have is sufficient.

      --
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      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    3. Re:Oh, Great! by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

      Quarks, along with electrons, are believed fundamental at the moment, as they cannot be split or even collided, so are either tiny beyond statistical belief, or are true point particles.

      Anyway, quarks form together to make protons and neutrons and stuff, and protons and neutrons together make the nucleus of an atom. It turns out jamming quarks together to make protons and neutrons gives off 8x more energy than jamming neutrons and protons together to make the nucleus of an atom.

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    4. Re:Oh, Great! by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but we've got lots of hydrogen around, and if we fuse that into heavier elements we create power. All the quarks I can see here at my desk are pretty firmly bound, and we'd have to unbind them to fuse them. According to TFS, scientists bashed atoms together in the LHC and got a few quarks to swap around. That doesn't sound like an energy source (from TFS).

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    5. Re:Oh, Great! by Mkkby · · Score: 2

      50 years is far too optimistic. With no working theories for energy gain, containment or collection, it really is infinity years away.

  5. Don't get too exited by Dorianny · · Score: 4, Informative

    This is NOT a usable source of energy. The quarks are so short-lived that a sustained reaction is impossible

    1. Re:Don't get too exited by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      That just means we need to incorporate time manipulation into the reaction.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    2. Re:Don't get too exited by atherophage · · Score: 1

      Eight times zero is still zero. Until this is realized another billion dollars will be thrown at this generating a couple dozed PhD's.

    3. Re:Don't get too exited by rudy_wayne · · Score: 1

      How old was Quark? He didn't seem short-lived to me.

    4. Re: Don't get too exited by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Of course Quark fusion is unacceptably unstable. While not quite as good, there is an alternative which is much more stable. Ladies and gentlemen, get ready for...

      PageMaker Fusion!

    5. Re: Don't get too exited by sheramil · · Score: 1

      Of course Quark fusion is unacceptably unstable.

      I am now imagining Quark and the Grand Nagus doing that little dance, side by side, pointing their fingers in the air, leaning towards each other and shouting "Fu... sion.. HAA!"

      I'm not apologising.

    6. Re:Don't get too exited by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This is NOT a usable source of energy.

      More importantly, the energy required to create the baryons in the first place is 1-2 orders of magnitude more than the fusion releases and you get more energy just waiting for them to decay.

    7. Re:Don't get too exited by slack_justyb · · Score: 4, Informative

      Exactly this! The whole reason nuclear fusion works is because we're tapping into the energy in a neutron. A star's massive size creates a sizable amount of gravitational energy. A small amount of this gravitational energy is used to transition a proton into a neutron via the weak force. This creates deuterium. That eventually flies away from a star and carries off the energy or stays put and gains more energy by converting into helium. In nuclear fusion, we bring two deuterium atoms and form either tritium or Helium-3. The process of doing so releases some of that energy that was used to originally bind the proton and neutron. Fusion isn't creating energy from nothing, it came from somewhere to begin with. It's just that we've got so many isotopes of hydrogen, helium, and lithium on this planet, that using them as a fuel is cheap. We don't have some magic well for doubly charmed or bottom quarks.

    8. Re:Don't get too exited by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      But it is eight times as zero!

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      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    9. Re:Don't get too exited by Netbending · · Score: 1

      Famous last words. Lets wait a century or two and see.

    10. Re:Don't get too exited by Anonymous+Cow+Ward · · Score: 1

      And they were wrong.

      --
      Examine even your most deeply held beliefs. Nobody is always right.
  6. Re:Hooray! Bigger bombs! by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 2, Informative

    Trump and Kim will love that.

    Well... From TFA:

    However, their fears that this quark fusion could be weaponized soon fizzled out as they realized in subsequent experiments that quarks exist only for about one picosecond. That’s too short a time to create a chain reaction to set off more baryons, as the quarks quickly decay into less volatile, lighter quarks.

    (In short, they decay faster than Trump's attention span.)

    --
    It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
  7. Spectacularly confused summary by tyme · · Score: 5, Informative
    The fusion isn't a fusion of quarks, but of baryons: two Lambda baryons fuse to form a Chi baryon and a neutron, which is analogous to Deuterium/Tritium nuclear fusion. The bottom form of the Lambda to Chi baryon fusion results in about 11x as much energy released as the charmed form.

    Anyone who knows anything about subatomic physics would know that you can't have fusion of individual quarks because quarks never occur individually outside of a baryon, so the summary is simply incoherent nonsense.

    --
    just a ghost in the machine.
    1. Re:Spectacularly confused summary by markus · · Score: 1

      Where are my mod points when I need them?

      Thank you for the concise and accurate summary. The only isolated quark is a dairy product.

    2. Re:Spectacularly confused summary by Michael+Woodhams · · Score: 3, Interesting

      So if I happen to have a couple of charm or bottom Lambda bosons, I can do something clever to collide them and I can get energy. Alternatively, I could just wait about 10^-12 seconds until they decay of their own accord, and I can get energy.

      It got past the Nature reviewers, so I suppose there must be some point, but I'm not seeing it.

      --
      Quattuor res in hoc mundo sanctae sunt: libri, liberi, libertas et liberalitas.
    3. Re:Spectacularly confused summary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It got past the Nature reviewers, so I suppose there must be some point, but I'm not seeing it.

      I assume the researchers and the Nature reviewers - being, unlike Slashdot submitters and editors, in possession of at least two brain cells each - were not treating it as a miraculous power source. Rather, they were publishing a description of the way certain exotic particles interact with one another, confirming or refuting the way theory says they should, like thousands of other papers examining the intricacies of particle physics.

    4. Re:Spectacularly confused summary by hcs_$reboot · · Score: 2

      I could just wait about 10^-12 seconds until they decay of their own accord

      What do you plan to do during all that time?

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    5. Re:Spectacularly confused summary by ImprovOmega · · Score: 2

      It happens that 10^-12 seconds is the average length of time a person on Slashdot spends reading the article and considering a reply before they begin posting about it. It would be much shorter, but people like OP keep skewing up the average.

  8. Okay, but by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 1, Offtopic

    What about Rom Fusion?

    --
    #DeleteChrome
  9. If only we had a pile of loose quarks by jfdavis668 · · Score: 2

    Since 99% of an atom's mass is the binding energy of the quarks, I would say that would be a great source of energy. But since we don't have a pile of loose quarks sitting around, I don't see how that would be much use. We would have to expend energy to break them apart first.

  10. This is in line with rules of acquisition. by sinij · · Score: 1

    Eight times more? This is in line with rules of acquisition.

  11. buying quarks by AndyKron · · Score: 1

    I'll take a pound of quarks please. Put it on my tab, I'm good for it.

    1. Re:buying quarks by CustomSolvers2 · · Score: 1

      I'll take a pound of quarks please.

      Here you have a 1-pound stone full of high-quality quarks. It is $1 for the stone and $1 trillion for the quarks. LOL.

      --
      Custom Solvers 2.0 = Alvaro Carballo Garcia = varocarbas.
  12. Re:The Republicans will never let us have this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    University of Utah demonstrated cold fusion in 1989, but notice that the Republicans haven't allowed us to have it yet.

  13. The Mouse That Roared by bunyip · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Hmmm...

    Maybe that movie was prophetic and they'll produce a Q-bomb, with more power than all the A-bombs and H-bombs of the world combined...

    A.

    1. Re:The Mouse That Roared by neoRUR · · Score: 1

      They were hesitant about publishing this because of the threat of making a Q-Bomb out of it, but they said that the Baryon's didn't last long enough to create a chain reaction.
      But I'm sure someone will figure out how to make them last longer also.

    2. Re:The Mouse That Roared by BlueStrat · · Score: 1

      They were hesitant about publishing this because of the threat of making a Q-Bomb out of it, but they said that the Baryon's didn't last long enough to create a chain reaction.
      But I'm sure someone will figure out how to make them last longer also.

      That's simple; Accelerate all the baryons you plan to fuse to a significant fraction of C large enough to produce sufficient time-dilation effects.

      Of course, to achieve that kind of velocity you'll need large scale quark-fusion levels of energy.

      Strat

      --
      Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
    3. Re:The Mouse That Roared by John+Da'+Baddest · · Score: 1

      That's simple; Accelerate all the baryons you plan to fuse to a significant fraction of C large enough to produce sufficient time-dilation effects.

      I'm curious about this possibility. To my understanding, velocities of non-C particles are always in context (ie, relative) to an observer. Thus you don't need to accelerate the baryons at all, they're already traveling close to the speed of light relative to some other speedy observer -- who may or may not exist.

      This "velocity gap" is sometimes useful in use-cases like detecting high-speed short-lived muons falling through the atmosphere, when they would ordinarily decay long before hitting the ground had they not been moving so fast (relative to Earth).

      But the fast-moving particles don't notice their speed. So unless you intend to stick your hands in and manipulate these proposed high-speed baryons as they zip along more slowly, relative to you, it doesn't change their decay fate or make the reaction any more or less chain-able.

    4. Re:The Mouse That Roared by BlueStrat · · Score: 1

      To my understanding, velocities of non-C particles are always in context (ie, relative) to an observer. Thus you don't need to accelerate the baryons at all, they're already traveling close to the speed of light relative to some other speedy observer -- who may or may not exist.

      That would necessarily be in relation to the particle's space-time fabric within which it and the 'observer(s)' exist. Everything and everyone outside of that space-time fabric 'bubble' around the particles created by relativistic effects are the 'observers'.

      Interesting relativistic space-time discussion. However, in all honesty, I was making a 'chicken/egg' jest in that it would take the power of a quark-fusion reactor to accelerate baryons fast enough to create a quark-fusion reactor requiring accelerating significant masses of baryons to relativistic speeds.

      Or, could it be that...purely in jest...I unwittingly unlocked the secret to quark-fusion, ushering-in Mankind's "Golden Age" of cheap/clean power and interstellar travel/colonization?

      Crap! I hope they don't blame me!

      Strat

      --
      Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
    5. Re:The Mouse That Roared by BlueStrat · · Score: 1

      Wow...Slashdot completely lost my hypertext quotes.

      Or maybe they simply entered a different space-time 'bubble'.

      Probably chilling with my MIA unmatched socks.

      Strat

      --
      Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
    6. Re:The Mouse That Roared by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I think someone with an original 6-digit UID likely has it pretty-well down by now. Slashcode has eaten my quote tags (among other weird things) a time or two over the years as well. However, hands-down the most common thing for Slashdot to devour is one's hope for mankind and personal will to live.

  14. Wrong Quark by maroberts · · Score: 2

    You'll actually be a Ferengi

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    Karma: Chameleon

    1. Re:Wrong Quark by DontBeAMoran · · Score: 2

      At least he'll have a bar.

      All I got is this freakin' moon.

      --
      #DeleteFacebook
    2. Re:Wrong Quark by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Wilhuff, will you EVER be happy?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    3. Re:Wrong Quark by DontBeAMoran · · Score: 1
      --
      #DeleteFacebook
    4. Re:Wrong Quark by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      I hold your Star Trek reference and raise you a Star Wars reference.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    5. Re:Wrong Quark by DontBeAMoran · · Score: 1

      Oh yeah, because "Quark" is from Star Wars.

      --
      #DeleteFacebook
    6. Re:Wrong Quark by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      No, but the "just a moon"... forget it, jokes don't get better when you start explaining them.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  15. Re:Hooray! Bigger bombs! by maroberts · · Score: 3, Funny

    (In short, they decay faster than Trump's attention span.)

    Nope, Scientific tests have proven that nothing decays faster than Trump's attention span. However, it seems like a Twitter containment field can prevent such decay

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    Karma: Chameleon

  16. Cost of 'Quark Fusion'? by Ze+Wah · · Score: 1

    8 x The energy but at what cost?
    I wonder what the current Gold Pressed Latinum exchange rate is?

  17. Re:When May We Expect the Quark Bomb? by lhowaf · · Score: 1

    Pull my finger.

  18. releases energy that's 12 MeV more energy by NicknameUnavailable · · Score: 1

    Why not instead of wording it so utterly retardedly go with something like:

    releases bigness that's 12 MeV more bigger

  19. Before anyone gets too excited.... by joe_frisch · · Score: 4, Informative

    This is very interesting from a theoretical / experimental point of view. Its an analog of nuclear fusion but done with quarks. That is fun and interesting and well worth a nature paper. It is NOT however in any way a possible source of energy. The quarks in normal matter are already in their lowest energy state. The lambda_c particles they are fusing have a half life of a fraction of a picosecond - not something you might find lying around. Making lambdas would take far more energy than comes out of the "fusion".

    So its an interesting example of a large binding energy between charmed quarks, but since you have to create the input particles out of energy, its not a path to net energy production. The abstract of the paper says as much.

  20. Re:Hooray! Bigger bombs! by Khyber · · Score: 2

    Whomever downmodded you is a fucking idiot that has never heard of Tsar Bomba.

    --
    Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
  21. Sadly... by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 4, Funny

    ...your post is lacking any truth or beauty!

  22. Minor energy problem by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Unfortunately, unlike nuclear fusion where the things you want to fuse can be found lying around because they are stable, exotic baryons containing c or b quarks have to be created. Since their mass is several thousand MeV - even more if you are using baryons with b-quarks - this will require vastly more energy than this fusion will release.

    In fact, just the decay of these baryons releases far more energy that this fusion process so it's not the short lifetime that prevents practical application it's making the constituents in the first place and, even if you find someway to do that, you are better off just waiting for them to decay.

    1. Re:Minor energy problem by Scarred+Intellect · · Score: 1

      So.....60 years?

    2. Re:Minor energy problem by DCFusor · · Score: 1

      Yep, this was all utter BS and hype. Wonder if the authors were that stupid or just looking for some $?

      --
      Why guess when you can know? Measure!
    3. Re:Minor energy problem by david_thornley · · Score: 2

      Actually, it's a significant contribution to how subatomic physics works. The proper question is whether whoever wrote TFS was that stupid or just looking for some attention?

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    4. Re:Minor energy problem by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 2

      No, you need about -13.8 billion years.

  23. Re:Democrat wins VA governorship by Hognoxious · · Score: 2, Funny

    people went to church every sunday

    And to a picnic every labor day.

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  24. Quark? There is more energy in Grana Padano by havana9 · · Score: 1

    Everyone knows that soft fresh cheese has fewer calories than aged hard cheese. Even Mascarpone is more energetic.

  25. Re:Hooray! Bigger bombs! by Opportunist · · Score: 4, Funny

    *sigh*

    Fuck, when will people ever get it right. The Twitter Containment Field (or TCF) only creates a snapshot, it does not conserve a state. And even though to the untrained eye the TCF seems to conserve a state, its attention half life is even shorter than what is contained therein, making it even less important than what it contains.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  26. Is this the Solarmanite? by anwyn · · Score: 1

    Is this the Solarmanite described in Plan Nine from Outer space?

  27. Quark already is my daily energy source, ... by antek9 · · Score: 1

    ... and I'll agree that Quark fusion is even better. I tend to fuse it with fresh fruits or berries, some linseed and one drop of honey.

    Ref.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quark_(dairy_product)/

    Irradiated foods, on the other side, tend to wear me out, so the headline seems about correct.

    --
    A World in a Grain of Sand / Heaven in a Wild Flower,
    Infinity in the Palm of your Hand / And Eternity in an Hour.
  28. Hydrogen is abundant in the universe ... by Ihlosi · · Score: 2

    ... but right now I can't think of a good source of quarks.

  29. Not that surprising. by Rothron+the+Wise · · Score: 3, Informative

    It's using the strong nuclear force rather than the weak one, but as long as you don't have a free supply of free quarks (you don't) it's not really a power source. Don't expect to see quark fusion reactors at any time in the future, sure you can make them in the LHC, but only by using vastly more energy than you'll get fusing the quarks back together again.

    --
    A witty .sig proves nothing
    1. Re:Not that surprising. by strikethree · · Score: 1

      It's using the strong nuclear force rather than the weak one, but as long as you don't have a free supply of free quarks (you don't) it's not really a power source.

      Batteries are not a "power source" and yet we find them quite useful. Perhaps this discovery could lead to a battery that you can keep in your pocket and power your jetpack, personal AI super computers, and such for a lifetime? Sure, it may take an entire star worth of energy to charge that battery, but it could be useful...

      --
      "Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
  30. I guess that means... by argStyopa · · Score: 1

    ...that soon we'll hear that Iran and DPRK have both independently begun development of 'quark bombs'.

    --
    -Styopa
  31. Re:Democrat wins VA governorship by dadelbunts · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Reversed my ass. Democrats just switched tactics to keep black people down. Democratic controlled black areas seldom recover and do better, they are kept in a state of perpetual poverty and reliance on welfare. Coupled with programs to send black males to prison (super predators anyone) and they ensure black communities are reliant on them thus ensuring votes. The ONLY thing the parties appear to have switched on is freedom of speech and personal liberties. The party once known for being "liberal" is now trying to curb speech any way it can.

  32. Re:Hooray! Bigger bombs! by s122604 · · Score: 1

    Well hopefully, if we really put our minds to it, we can still figure out how to turn this thing into a big ass bomb

  33. Cool. Now how practical is it? by Chas · · Score: 1

    Whoops! Used the P-word! Sorry! Sorry!

    Still. Is this process any more manageable, efficient or economical than nuclear fusion?

    --


    Chas - The one, the only.
    THANK GOD!!!
  34. Re:Hooray! Bigger bombs! by Mkkby · · Score: 2

    While quarks may have a lifetime too short to use as a DIRECT weapon, quantum action at a distance should allow us to attack North Korea without them being aware.

    Trigger Kim's bombs to explode in their silos. Then play Trump's tweets over an over again in his head until he goes (even more) mad.