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Ask Slashdot: Which Laptop Has The Best Keyboard?
Slashdot reader Rock21k is thinking of replacing an old laptop. But...
All newer laptops seem to have wide spacing between the keyboard keys, which I hate... At one time, this used to be for consumer laptops but most major companies have done it for business laptops as well... Probably over time I might get used to it, but definitely not the first choice. I understand I can use an external keyboard but that defeats the purpose of a laptop!
Do you also hate wide spacing between keyboard keys? Which brand do you find least annoying? Leave your best answers in the comments. Which laptop has the best keyboard?
All the latest Apple laptops have bad keyboards, really. Bad to use, bad engineering, lots of problems.
The last good Apple laptop keyboards are on the 2015 MacBook Pro (still available) and the MacBook Air.
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The keyboard on my 760XL just plain sucks. No idea if it's pre-*30 Series or not.
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Wide spaced keys are closer to a desktop keyboard layout.
Manufacturers consider this a feature, not a problem.
The smaller the laptop, the tighter the key spacing. If you want tight keys, you need to look at a small screen.
Most wireless keyboards have tight key spacing. You might look at those.
I'm still waiting for a laptop with an ergonomically shaped keyboard (and a corresponding concave screen to match, so that you can close the lid ;) )
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IBM ThinkPad 701c "butterfly" keyboard
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
For me, it's ThinkPad or nothing, just for the keyboard. I cannot stand modern laptop keyboards. I still use an X220 specifically for the keyboard, and greeted with great joy the news that there will soon be a new, classic-style ThinkPad release.
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The Thinkpad 25 (25th Anniversary) uses the old style keyboard. I'm tempted to get one but some of its other specs are a bit anemic, particularly the battery.
I will agree that Apple input devices, particularly on notebooks, are deeply shitty. Not enough key travel, comically overlarge trackpads and now no function keys. Any one of those things is a deal breaker in my opinion.
-- I wanna decide who lives and who dies - Crow T. Robot, MST3K
Studies made in þe olde typewriter era have shown that having a wider surface on top of the keys leads to more unintentional key presses.
The standard surface width is 1/2" or 12 mm, and with standard width (what is usually meant when talking about "key spacing") being 3/4".
I think that what Rock21k is actually referring to is what is called "island keys" or "chiclet" keys.
I don't think that whether the keys' skirts are angled or go straight down matters that much. The problems are rather that chiclet keyboard tend to have flatter surfaces but more often entirely flat, wider surfaces and less key travel than other keyboards.
MacBook "Pro"'s keyboards with its ultra-flat "butterfly" scissor mechanism is especially bad.
Also, some popular chiclet laptop keyboards (such as MS Surface "Type Cover") have very low surface friction, so fingers slip more often.
Low surface friction wouldn't have been so detrimental to keyboard feel if the keys had been dished and had more space between them.
Older keyboard keys tended to be made of plastic, such as ABS or PBT which has good surface feel even when glossy but backlit keys tend to be painted with a slippery paint layer with laser-ablated legends.
"We mustn't be caught by surprise by our own advancing technology" -- Aldous Huxley
The Thinkpad T25 anniversary model has a recreation of the best keyboard of all time, however, key travel is slightly less than the golden-era thinkpads of 1995-2025. Still, Lenovo has decided that 1M+ customers (all of them complaining) could not be *totally* wrong, so they have reiussed 5,000 of these laptops, now on sale, with a 940MX GPU, 16GB of RAM, and ability to have 13+ hours of battery life. Get one while you can!
https://www3.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpad-t-series/ThinkPad-25/p/22TP2TTTP25
It is not too hard to find a 15%-off discount (several large corporate customers have the code for employee purchases) so the price becomes about $1620.
I like spacing between my keys personally since it helps reduce mistypes. Also, if the action mechanism is good, then accidentally hitting the edge of a key shouldn't trigger a stroke, so a little spacing helps in those cases as well.
There are 4 things I find important in most keyboards I use. Travel, key face shape, spacing, and mechanism; in that order of importance for me. Travel and mechanism are closely related most of the time though, but mechanism affects the "feel of action-ing" the key and there is a lot of psychology in that I think. I find key shape is pretty important as well. On keyboards with flatter key faces, I tend to mistype a lot and and have trouble centering on the keys.
My favorite recent laptop keyboard is the MacBook Pros from around 2011 up till the most recent iteration. The new keyboards are horrendous. Ignoring the oversized trackpad, which I think is just ugly, the new keys have even less travel and the prior MBPs, which were pretty low to begin with but not bad. The scissors mechanism is also pretty mushy as a result.
If Apple could pair their key design with the old IBM Thinkpad (before Lenovo) keyboard mechanisms, then that would be the best of both worlds I think. The old Thinkpad keyboards had a really nice feeling and feedback, but the key design was horrible. They were bunched next to each other so mistypes were common and they were "hemispherical" instead of being pits that your finger went into.
They cant get a keyboard right to save their life. The ctrl and function keys are bloody backwards!
Agreed. Thinkpads have the best keyboard and the best positioning device (=trackpoint), by far.
This is all very interesting. I actually found myself checking this comment thread to see if the current MBP keyboards would be listed in a positive way. It took me a few days to get used to, but typing on earlier MBPs now feels really uncomfortable.
Different strokes, I guess.
The 25th anniversary ThinkPad. You'll pay more for it than you would a comparable machine, but it has a 2007 era ThinkPad keyboard rather than the more modern ThinkPad keyboards (the P50 and X1 Carbon have great keyboards, but without the travel of the 25th Anniversary). If keyboard is really important to you, go with that.
Not certain if the poster meant larger keys (like desktop keyboards) or larger gaps between keys. If the former, then it's a feature to mimic desktop spacing as much as possible. If the latter, I'm not sure what he means "wide" - on a real keyboard, the tops of the keys would have even wider gaps.
In my opinion, the best keyboard on any laptop computer was the Toshiba T1200 keyboard circa 1988. Very much like the IBM Selectric / M-series buckling spring switch keyboards - in a portable form factor. I have yet to find another laptop keyboard that can match the feel and speed of typing possible with that machine. You could beat hell out of it, and it would just keep going. You can read about the T1200 laptop and see images of it here.
In 1988 I was in college, and I want to say I was one of the first, if not first person to use a laptop computer for taking notes in class on my campus (I didn't see ubiquitous laptop use in school until the 1990s). There were PC and Unix workstations and kiosks on campus - but they of course were not portable by any stretch of the imagination.
As for current machines - nothing has come close in terms of keyboard ergonomics.
Lodragan Draoidh
The more you explain it, the more I don't understand it. - Mark Twain
I have a Thinkpad through work. A few years ago they upgraded us to the newer versions with the chiclet-style keyboard. I thought I would hate it, but it actually isn't bad at all. Never thought I'd say that about one of those.
Yes, I was ready to hate the *30 series keyboards but turns out I... don't hate it. I even prefer it to my Corsair K70 at home. Haven't tried a more recent models, since I'm sticking to my X230.
I never use laptop keyboards. When I have to travel for business purpose (rarely, thank God!) I take a 10-keyless keyboard with me, and if that's not possible, yes I type on the laptop's keyboard if I have to.
For all other cases I have a full sized keyboard connected to my laptop through a port replicator.
...gis sdrawkcab (usually not responding to ACs; don't bother posting as AC)
A desktop style keyboard is the "best" keyboard. If you really need a good one then you may as well bring a desktop keyboard with your laptop.
Beyond that it comes down to personal preference and how you type. Just go into multiple computer stores and test different laptop models to see how you like the keyboards.
In may ways this is like asking what the "best" car is without knowing anything about your personal preferences, style, usage, etc.
From PCWorld, "The Predator 21 X features a full-height mechanical keyboard using Cherry MX brown switches. Acer isn't the first laptop maker to integrate full-height mechanical keys, of course, but it's a nice touch. The keys are individually RGB-lit, too. If you don't like the colored WASD keys, Acer includes more sedate black keys in the box." It's probably not the laptop you want, but that seems like the answer to your question in absence of additional constraints.
Insert self-referential sig here.
I have a 2015 Macbook.
The keyboard kind of gets better as it ages. I guess the mechanism gets smoother as it wears out...
At least that's how it usually plays out for me.
There are no good keyboards today, it's next to impossible to get a Keytronic keyboard today, especially non-US variants, and never for a laptop.
If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
I own an Alienware 17 R4 Signature Edition, and I love the SteelSeries keyboard that is built into the chassis. It feels amazing to type on, even compared to my mechanical keyboard that I use on my desktop! The keys have a nice feel to them, and they have a decent tactility to them overall. I much prefer to type on this keyboard as opposed to other keyboards I have used in the past, like this Lenovo Thinkpad T430 I am using to write this post, it has the new-style chicklet keyboard, and I just don't think it compares to the Alienware's keyboard in any way, shape, or form. In all honesty I prefer the older Lenovo Thinkpad T420 keyboard, as it was much easier to press those keys and they don't hurt my fingers or hands in any way like the newer (yet still ancient) Thinkpad T430's keyboard. Although price-wise, I damn well better be getting the best keyboard in the world with the Alienware 17 R4, as it is definitely not cheap. I have yet to try typing on most other keyboards, but I can say that the Acer keyboards, Dell keyboards, Lenovo keyboards, and Macbook keyboards just don't have the kind of feel that I like them to have, and the Alienware outperforms them in all aspects, including tactility, fatigue, depression measurement, and key-coating. My typing on my Alienware is much more efficient than my old Dell Inspiron's keyboard for sure.
I second this. I hated the new MBP keyboard style. And I forced myself to get used to it since I do all of my development on OSX (now Mac OS), and with the new keyboards, the writing is on the wall. Penalty for the walled garden I suppose.
However, after using it for about a week almost exclusively, going back to the 2012 MBP I used to have is TERRIBLE! I couldnâ(TM)t believe how confounded my expectations were. I also ran through a typing test, and Iâ(TM)m faster on the new MBP vs the old one. When I returned to my office from onsite at a client, I headed strait for the nearest Apple store to pick up one of the new keyboards so it feels consistent. I donâ(TM)t know why, but the change is hated, even when itâ(TM)s significanty better, and I donâ(TM)t understand why. When I upgraded from one resolution to the next over the years, each time I felt better for it immediately. Iâ(TM)m not sure why the keyboard progression doesnâ(TM)t âoefeelâ the same way. My typing speed and accuracy is higher, my fingers are fast getting used to shortcuts on the touch-bar, and yet, I hated moving to it, and saw it as a necessary evil! Why do we get used to resolution and dimension changes easier than keyboard mechanical changes?
Gotta be those classic Thinkpads with the best keyboards
Although, I'd love to use a laptop with a built-in IBM model M buckling spring "clicky" keyboard - just to annoy everyone in the coffee shop.
Pity we'll probably never see one.
READY.
PRINT ""+-0
Get the laptop you like, but get one with USB-C. Reasoning as follows;
I really consider the keyboard of most laptops to be "good enough". Would I want to work a full day on it? I don't want to, but in a pinch I could. I'd rather walk up to my desk at work or in my private office. With USB-C, you hook up a single cable and everything is connected: power, monitor, mouse, and a decent keyboard that's good on the ergonomics.
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The iPad Pro.
I am FAR more productive with a ThinkPad X220 or T420 than I am with more modern laptops, because I can touch-type without ever looking at the keyboard. This is achieved by having various key sizes and spacings, which tell me exactly where on the "map" I am at any given moment. Lenovo shit the bed by switching to the 6-row keyboard with equally-spaced function keys and non-discoverable special characters, but they may be now going back to the old-and-awesome 7 row classic keyboard. The T25 is a fist step, here's hoping all their new models will have it.
Of course, if you're a donk that needs looking at his keyboard every 5-10 seconds, then you won't understand what's all the fuss about. I notice that those same donks need shit like backlit keys, because without them they are utterly lost while typing in the dark. And spend lots of time looking dimwitted.
"The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
Easy, it's muscle memory...using something every day makes you able to move on it without thinking, and that kind of training makes you faster. Also, your test with the previous keyboard does not mean the newer is better, just that you learned the new one (forgetting the old). For a good comparison you'd need to take back data of an old typing speed test taken on your last day with your old keyboard and match it against the one you just did.
Even as the trend to reduce key travel has continued the Thinkpad keyboards still feel great.
All laptop keyboards suck!
I have almost exactly the same computer (MSI GL62) and I strongly do not recommend if you care a lot about input. They screwed up the touchpad positioning so it's constantly pressed during normal typing. And if you configure the driver to be less sensitive, normal touches stop working. For example, a tap after cursor movement isn't accepted, and taps are all ignored when using the touchpad and arrow keys at the same time. (So much for a gaming laptop!)
Granted, I've only compared this laptop to brands that are known for having good input controls (Thinkpads and Macbooks), but the way MSI keyboards and touchpads work together is quite bad. I've been tempted to just put masking tape over the upper corners of the touchpad, but I don't want to deal with sticky residue it would leave if it ever gets warm.
A cat can't teach a dog to bark.
If only the keyboard had a proper apostrophe character!
Agreed. I was very skeptical of the new keyboard that they introduced with the Macbook. Then I went to the store and typed on one for a half an hour or so.. I was sold. It wasn't perfect but I really liked it.
But I continued to use my 2012 MBP keyboard and the matching aluminum desktop keyboard. Up until recently I've found them to be the best keyboards for me for all day typing (I'm a software developer).
Then I tried the 2016 MBP keyboard and it was a huge improvement over the macbook keyboard. I ended up getting one back in March, I think, and I love it. The touchbar took some getting used to but on balance I really love what it does for usability.
The escape key and function keys are mostly only useful to me in Vim and I can map the keyboard so that they always show up when I load Vim or the terminal. I do wish the escape key was in the far corner where it belongs and I *really* wish they added a taptic engine underneath it but for the most part I don't really notice the change.
Whenever I go back to an old-style Mac keyboard it's very hard for me to get used to. And god help me when I go to a more traditional long throw keyswitch keyboard. I want to smash them. Ironically the clear case Apple keyboard (the one with the white keys from ~2003) is one of the worst I've ever used.. absolutely terrible.
I've used a great many keyboards over the years (both desktop and laptop -- including an ergonomic split keyboard with buckling spring keys). The macbook pro keyboards have always led the pack for me.
Typing this on a Lenovo T420, this is the only answer. If you need something newer, get a T25.
The soylentnews experiment has been a dismal failure.
I just got a new keyboard 2 days ago. It's a Logitech K800*. At first I didn't like it because the keys were closer together than the old Saitek keyboard I had used for years. I usually take the attitude that a keyboard is just a keyboard anyway.
But after about a day of using this new one and getting used to it I have found I actually type better.
To check my perception I just pulled out a ruler and measured the distance between the left edge of the "Q" key and the right edge of the "P" key on the Logitech, the Saitek and an old Toshiba laptop. Despite what I thought they're all very close to equal in distance - any difference is barely perceptible with the ruler I used.
The biggest difference seems to be how low a profile a laptop's keys and the logitech's keys have compared to the Saitek.
But why would you judge a laptop solely on its keyboard? I used to be a road warrior and I lugged my laptop all over the country but I adapted to whatever keyboard my laptop had.
At home or in my cubicle though I have almost always have used an external keyboard. It's just too much to carry when you travel but if I really hated my laptop's keyboard that much I would have.
* - sorry if I sound like a shill for Logitech. I know everyone hates them for what they tried to do with their Harmony remote. I've used their trackballs for half my life and I love them. I would be upset if you made me use a mouse.
And another thing. (possibly wandering off topic, sorry)
Why are computers sold with keyboards and a mouse anyway these days. A week ago I woke up to a dead laptop and in desperation I went to Walmart and bought an HP desktop. It was desperation that drove me to that choice, but why did it come with a mouse and a keyboard but NO speakers?
HP couldn't even include a shitty speaker inside their computer? But they insist on giving me a keyboard and mouse that I will NEVER use? WTF?
I know, some people would be pissed off if they spent $500 on a computer and they got it home and realized they had no keyboard but there's also a good reason I didn't buy a monitor with it - because I already had one. They were in fact selling computers with monitors all wrapped up neatly in one box.
I guess the reason they can't package and sell the keyboards/mice separately is a marketing decision. People would get freaked out if they had to start buying accessories? (just a guess). Besides, keyboards and mice are so cheap they're practically disposable.
Not sure why parent was downvoted, because I think the point about the numeric keypad is quite valid. If a laptop has a numeric keypad, the rest of the keyboard will not be centered, and what is worse, the touchpad will not be centered.
When I ordered my lenovo they did not offer an option without a numeric keypad. I would have paid extra money to get rid of it, but the option was just not available.
Hey lenovo, are you listening? Why do you think a Macbook Pro has no numeric keypad? Litte hint: It's not because Apple is cheap or because their developers are retarded.
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Preferably one that clicks.
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I think it's my Thinkpad that puts function in the area of the modifier keys. Super frustrating for keyboard shortcuts.
Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
Disagree - I think its the best laptop keyboard ever. I can type fast and not clip my fingers as the move over the keyboard. I know other people that think the same.
Agreed. At first I liked it due to the extra clickyness, but now I just hate it. Often I'm dropping letters. It's a touch typists nightmare.
I couldnâ(TM)t believe how confounded my expectations were.
-1 Unreadable
From my experience: you might get used to tolerating it but a bad keyboard is a bad keyboard, especially when it has a terrible layout. In such a case it will always be an annoyance to work with.
The Thinkpad 25 seems to be the only acceptable option for a programmer's keyboard right now.
For current day computers I'd give the current MacBooks a try. I've had good experiences with the new Apple keyboards, but some people don't like them at all so YMMV.
If you can get your hands on an older refurbished ThinkPad with the classic keyboard, that might be an option aswell. I just bought one of the last with the classic keyboard and don't regret it the slightest.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
Why use a keyboard ? Keyboards are for ludites. Modern people tablets with apps that app apps. Appity app !
Extraordinary keyboard. Deep but not too deep, quiet, and consistent. Thrash away. If you are a punishing typist like me, then you may need to replace it a few times. It's a minor irritation, but the latest one has lasted well over a year.
If I can't plug in a real keyboard to a laptop my WPM is gonna go way down and mistakes up. I have no idea how some people use laptop keyboards as their main keyboards. The key travel is inevitably crap and the layout is subtly different enough in terms of spacing that my muscle memory will screw stuff up all the time. I love my cherry keyboard. So much so that I bought like 20 of them so I never run out as I destroy like 1 a year. And it has a British layout with a proper big Enter key. :-)
== Jez ==
Do you miss Firefox? Try Pale Moon.
"Give me an IBM Model M keyboard (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_M_keyboard). . . or give me death!"
And the same old factories (and even a few old timer personnel) are still churning out buckling spring mechanical keyboard under the Unicomp brand name.
(This message was typed using one of these).
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
aent from my iphone
There are plenty of good keyboards, much better than a mushy Keytronic. You just have to know where to look, and be prepared to spend the money.
I'll give you some hints: RealForce, Topre, Filco, Unicomp.
iOS autocorrupts apostrophes and double quotes to SmartQuotes by default, which slashdot doesn't handle.
https://www.jordanmerrick.com/...
echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
What about gamer laptops with mechanical keyboards?
And if keyboards are such an issue do as I do. The two places I am the most (home and office) I have a real keyboard sitting on my desk. At home I even have a dedicated screen.
My office it not at the local coffee shop, so not an issue.
If I travel and I know I need to work from my hotel room, I take my (small) keyboard with me. At a remote office I always can steal a keyboard. Just in case, I have a PS2toUSB converter with me all the time.
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
I have a 760Xl as well. I agree the keyboard is not the best, but I am quite sure it was made after 1930!
Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
If you can call that laptop
The XO Laptop from the OLCP project has the best keyboard.
It's the only waterproof keyboard I've seen where you can actually clean in completely, so I normally use it for cooking and crafts.
I know some other modern laptops like the Chromebooks have some form of waterproofing in the keyboard, but they are still a pain to clean and you would have to open up the laptop... with the XO is just a simple cleaning with a moist towel and you are done.
There’s a thing where, wearing shoes which have more paddimg, actually causes the foot to hit the ground harder, because your body is trying to find something solid to hit. So ironically, more padding causes more force to travel up your leg and causes more damage than non-padded.
I find the very flat keys cause my hands to have to re-figure out what they are aiming for, but then there is a more definite point of contact. Going back to the earlier keyboards now, they feel all squidgy.
Only thing is, the tiniest spec of a grain of something, caught under a key, disables the key. I was getting a faulty enter key, until I blasted air under it.
Excuse the typos. Not typed in a MBP but on an ancient iPhone where the predictive text is so slow I turned it off :-D
I have a rugged Thinkpad 12" around that's still one of the most comfortable laptop keyboards i've ever used.
Of all the keyboards I've used in recent times, The Dell XPS series has the most comfortable keyboard and the most positive key engagement. As to the key spacing, it is a chicklet keyboard, in keeping with the current fashion. But that's where the similarities with most other brands end. Dell seems to have gone through quite a bit of effort to make the keyboard nice. It's the closest thing I've felt to typing on a proper keyboard.
It's only a matter of time before someone does a Nintendo DS like clamshell design with the top screen as a screen and the bottom screen as a touchpad.
A clamshell with two displays, the bottom one as a keyboard seems like something which is worth experimenting with, even though I hate touch screen keyboards myself. It's actually a bit mysterious why touch typing on a mechanical keyboard is so much easier than on a touchscreen given that you're not looking at the keys.
Perhaps you could use haptic feedback to trick your fingers into thinking they're hitting keys either dead centre or a bit off so your muscle memory can calibrate. I remember reading about haptic feedback and how the holy grail was to be able to simulate fur. If you can do that you could probably simulate keys.
http://www.economist.com/node/...
https://archive.fo/O4197
When someone moves a finger over a sharp surface, typically both vertical and lateral forces are applied to the skin, says Dr Robles-De-La-Torre. Using a haptic interface called GRAB, which was developed by Carlo Alberto Avizzano and his colleagues at the Scuola Superiore Sant'Anna in Pisa, Italy, the researchers showed that a realistic sensation can be created using skin-stretch alone, and leaving out the vertical forces. The device consists of a thimble on a motorised arm. Using the motors to apply short bursts of very precise resistance it applies slight lateral stretches to the skin of a fingertip passing over the thimble, giving the impression of a sharp edge.
The ultimate aim of this sort of research would be to find ways to simulate any kind of shape, sensation or texture, says Dr Robles-De-La-Torre. "The holy grail for me is to do fur," says Dr MacLean. There is a long way to go, but it should eventually be feasible, she says. One of the difficulties of simulating textures, says Dr Hayward, is that the sensation of texture depends on the interaction between the surface and tiny ridges in the skin at the fingertips. In theory, it should be possible to stimulate these ridges individually using micro-electromechanical systems (MEMS) technology, but so far nobody has tried, says Dr MacLean.
echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
If that's what you're using I don't want one.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
my lenovo p50. go figure. nasa sends 150 of them up in the shuttle.
It is a lot noisier, though. My wife prefered me typing on the old 2010 MacBook Pro. But apart from that, it doesn't make such a big difference for me.
I like the touch bar, if only they wouldn't place critical non-reversible functions like "send mail" onto it. A quick accidental brush of a finger is enough to send an unfinished e-mail. I do, however love how you can adjust sound volume and screen brightness using the slider. Overall it's a great addition.
I don't think I would be happy with the missing physical escape key. Years of wiring my brain that the Esc key is the top-left key, it's part of what I use to orient myself on the keyboard without looking. And yes, as you say it's a very important key in Vim. I know I wouldn't be happy remapping Esc to something else - I might as well switch to Dvorak mode while I'm at it. And wow, no function keys on the 2016 MBP! Very presumptive on Apple's part - who knows what workflows people have mapped to their function keys. This lack of consideration is part of why I won't buy a new Macbook Pro. Somebody has really lost the plot at Apple.
And maybe a "del" key.
Page up/down would be very useful, too. Would it really kill them to have a couple more keys?
No sig today...
The best keyboard on a laptop is any laptop into which I plug my clicky IBM keyboard! These keyboards, from back in the PC/XT/AT days, are built like tanks and have the best feel of any keyboard I've ever used. When my last IBM keyboard dies, I'll have to stop using computers.
Circle the wagons and fire inward. Entropy increases without bounds.
You can have the touch bar display the function keys when you launch an app that uses them. Sure, it's not a "real" key with tactile feedback, but at least it's still an option. And when using an app that has never used the F-keys, you have something there that is useable.
I've not used the TouchBar thing for an extended period of time, but this is the natural evolution of every laptop manufacturer putting dual functions on all the function keys for years - especially for an OS that never fully embraced them to begin with. It seems like a decent idea that can be improved on in the 2.x version if they put their haptic thingy on it to give you some tactile feedback when you press a "key".
Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
Actually, it's worse than that if you're anywhere except North America. Apple keyboards are *all* "American + a dual purpose hash key". I realise that making umpteed different keyboards is inconvenient for them, but foisting an american keyboard onto everyone isn't even taking a sensible approach to "find one that sort of works for everyone".
I have a mac, and I generally like it. I actually do type on the laptop keyboard all of the time (no external keyboards because I find switching between layouts harder than pissing about with an american layout) - but man, I wish they'd do better at it.
Pok3r is also okay, though not as good as a Happy Hacking Pro keyboard, and it's programmable.
Most mechanical keyboards(except Unicomp) have the control key in the wrong place, so being able to reprogram them can be useful.
my favorite keyboard of all time.
Sorry, I did not even know one's karma can be that low :)
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It was released a couple of months ago.
That is, if you want a somewhat MODERN system, with a good keyboard. Is a tad expensive, but that's life for you...
Otherwise, go for one of those second hand old computers of yore. Your best bet for a good keyboard is an old laptop.
The quest to make thinner/lighter/smaller laptops has taken it's toll on the keyboards...
Less bessel on the screen means less surface area for the Keyboard (although the move from 4:3 to 16:9 helped a lot in this department), meaning less space and misisng keys.
Thinner and lighter means smaller keys with less travel, and smaller key mechanisms with worse tactile feel.
Me? I use the laptop docked most of the time, which means I use a nice HP Keyboard salvaged from a workstation (PA-RISK ultra 5000). Which has a windows key with a diferent logo, ideal for my mac ;-)
When on the go, I try to survive with the crappy laptop chiclet keyboard.
*** Suerte a todos y Feliz dia!
The thinkpad keyboards are still great, even after Lenovo acquired the line from IBM. We lost the thinklight a while ago, and the travel is slightly less than it used to be, but they are still the best for typing. I'm typing this on an X260 right now.
That said, the "ideapad" laptops are generally inferior. If you want a laptop with a good keyboard you only have one brand worth looking at - fortunately they have a lot of different models for you.
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
I don't like the cramped keys, but I like the chicklet style keyboards. They are easier on the hands, require less finger "work" to type, and if you type all day, for my anyway, it's quite noticeable. I even replaced my PC keyboard with an older Mac keyboard at work, and have been looking for something not quite as expensive for home. I got accustomed to the chicklets when a lot of my work ended up being on the road and I wasn't going to bring a full keyboard with me just to avoid the laptop keyboard. Once I got accustomed to it, there was no going back... I feel like it's actually burdensome now to type on an older style mechanical keyboard.
I can understand if a gamer wants something else, but as a touch typist, I greatly prefer it. I do agree with some other posters, though: a lot of these newer keyboards are "slippery" for fingers, especially the backlit ones. And while I thought I wanted a numeric keypad on my laptop, it turns out to be detrimental in the long run, making the rest of the keyboard cramped and off-center.
Stupid sexy Flanders.
The Cheetos crumbs have to go somewhere.
Have gnu, will travel.
For most people looking for a great keyboard, the Macbooks are a non-starter even if they can accept the OS change, because of the half-height arrow keys and lack of spacing between every 4 function keys (or lack of physical function keys on the touch bar models). For some reason this is glossed over in all the MBP reviews. Every PC laptop which dares to commit these transgressions gets dinged for it in all the reviews, but in the Mac reviews it's never mentioned.
The Thinkpads have shrunken their arrow keys slightly compared to their old keyboards. But they remain suitably large for comfortable editing, and the function keys mimic the spaces between every 4 keys like a desktop keyboard for touch typing.
Not when you have bigger concerns like Arrow keys (which ideally should be identical be arranged in a triangle and should have gap space like this. so you can actually feel where they are without looking properly. Not enlarged to gap fill like this. I'd be more concerned about having two alts and two controls because my sister's laptop only has one of one of those and it's a bloody nightmare every time I use her computer. I'm completely keyspacing agnostic. The way i figure it keyspacing helps the keylighting to show up. So I think I might prefer to have it than not. Also I'm medically what you call a giant. So I tend to prefer the larger keyboards for a laptop.
Just another second banana
Touch typing on any of my laptops is not bad until I need to use something outside the "typewriter" range of keys - like arrows, delete, backspace, alt, ctrl - you are absolutely right - everyone does something different with them and you need to get accustomed to every keyboard. This is a problem when I have two different work laptops, a personal laptop, and three different kinds of desktop keyboards (depending on what I'm working on). I can type "the quick brown fox blah blah blah..." all day on any keyboard, it's when I need to use pretty much any other key that it's a problem.
Stupid sexy Flanders.
As a coder, a reserved button for HOME, END, PAGE UP, and PAGE DOWN is nearly essential for me. I recently changed my laptop from a Samsung to a DELL, and have been terribly annoyed that you have to press "Function Left" for Home, etc. Now you have to press 3 buttons and use two hands to move to the beginning of a file when it used to be possible with one hand. Very annoying. Please keep these buttons on a laptop - especially when there are often inches of unused space left and right of the keyboard!
Yes both the pok3r and HHKB are very nice, but going to a 60% keyboard may be too big of a step for a full size KeyTronic user :)
What do you mean with control key in the wrong place? They almost all have them in the left bottom corner...
There are function keys in the touchbar, just not physical ones.
On an app by app basis you can decide what the layout is. In Vim and terminal I get a standard "esc, F1-F12" row without having to hit any modifiers. They're just not physical keys. If I want access to volume and brightness and such then I just press the "fn" key and the layout changes until I let go.
For me I only ever use esc, F1 and F2. I never have a problem hitting escape reliably. If I had to guess, I'd say less than 5% of the time do F1 and F2 trip me up and I use them very rarely -- I have them mapped to moving back and forth in the name completion list.
This is one of those things that I think seems like a huge disruption but turns out not to be. On balance the touchbar gives me a better user experience. On older keyboards I needed to map the function keys to always be F1-F12 and if I wanted to control volume, etc I had to hold "fn". So I had they keys permanently mapped so that they would work properly in Vim.
Now I can map them app by app. I get what I want in Vim (permanent function keys) and everywhere else I have easy to access system and media functionality. Honestly, if the escape key was moved a bit to the left and there was taptic feedback I wouldn't have anything to complain about at all.
And the improvements to the keyboard itself (I absolutely love the keyswitches) make it all worth it anyways.
What does "not clip my fingers" mean?
Stupid sexy Flanders.
Agreed, not a fan of the new MBP keyboard.
I do like the new scissor mechanism in that it keeps the keys flat and level, but nearly everything else is a MASSIVE compromise in the quest for knife-edged laptops.
He means the control key should be where caps lock is. The Pok3r has a dip switch for that.
The Daddy casts sleep on the Baby. The Baby resists!
The spacing on the Mac keyboards (USB and the Macbook Pro laptops to be precise) is precision spaced.
I remember reading a study somewhere about how the spacing ratio and the caplet height aspect was designed to keep the hands at
a "natural" orientation for like 85% of use.. so you dont have to "Stretch" to reach common keys and cuff and wrist movement is minimal.
I think the vertical handshake style mice are probably even better but the apple keyboard designs are ace....And while im not a fan of the latest gen USB-C laptop form factor, every other keyboard design in the industry seems superflous, distracting..and possibly hazardous.. im looking at you HP fullsize keyboards)
Bitch you KNOW the side.. WORLD MAFUCKIN WIDE..
There is a BIOS option for switching it with control... if that suits your muscle memory better.
Yep, just note that not all thinkpads have good keyboards... just the beefier ones. My x131e is decent I'd say it's probably king of the chiclet keyboards.
https://liliputing-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/thinkpad-x131e_06.jpg
Find a brick and mortar shop where they have laptops on display and try them. Thinkpads are usually a good bet.
Keyboards are a personal thing, and what's good for you may not be good for someone else. For example some people like short-travel keys, others despise them. There is also the matter of layout, for example, no one seem to agree where the PgUp, PgDn, Ins, Del, Home, End keys should go. Do you want backlight? a numeric keypad? liquid damage resistance?
I have no problem with wide spacing. This design allow for compact (flat) keyboards to be adequate for casual typing, which is, I think, a good compromise for most people.
I'll add my vote for the unicomp. Probably not the best for everyone, especially since it weighs more than my laptop ;-)
I love my Precisions keyboard. Some come with full numeric keypads.
On a side note: Sheldon on Big Bang Theory was for years using an Alienware laptop. This season he is using a Dell Precision.
I've been using laptops with numeric keypads for years and honestly not had any trouble with it, when using it my hands are just centered on the keyboard / trackpad.
The Thinkpad 25 (25th Anniversary) uses the old style keyboard
That one looks good but to really be Thinkpad retro it would have the unfolding butterfly keyboard.
The Dell has a great keyboard, IMO. The ASUS keyboard was increadibly crappy for a high-end laptop.
Thanks for the Thinkpad 25 mention, I hadn't heard of it and now I want one. Bottom line - Chiclets suck for typing and any who say they don't aren't proficient at typing. Nothing beats a mechanical keyboard on a desktop or proper scissor switch on a laptop.
This one's easy. Of current new laptops, the best keyboard hands-down is the ThinkPad Anniversary Edition 25. It's essentially a very slightly improved T420/X220/W520 keyboard.
My other favourites:
- ThinkPad X220/T420/W520
- ThinkPad T40/T60
- Apple PowerBook 12/15
- HP Mini 2133 and 2140 (Seriously. Great little keyboards.)
I was kinda hoping the scissor hinges would fix chiclets always missing keystrokes... haven't had a chance to try even that yet... but it sounds like they found yet more ways to make it suck. If something like the Thinkpad 25 is still around when I come due to a refresh, I'll definitely give it a look... I don't need huge performance out of this thing, just so long as it has an SSD for faster compiles, the CPU doesn't matter much. But... I'm getting on in years, so a bigger wide format screen definitely helps.
Someone had to do it.
only ThinkPads
Fully licensed blockchain psychiatrist
Not only that, the damn things are ridiculously loud. They're almost as bad as the old IBM Model M keyboards, but you don't get the satisfying feeling of pushing down on the key before you hear the kerchunk sound.
I don't want everyone in the immediate vicinity to hear me when I type, nor do I want to hear other people typing.
Some keyboards are genuinely bad. The mew Apple wireless keyboard it horrible. I have never found a tablet keyboard that is tolerable. The HP laptop keyboards are crimes against humanity.
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
The one my administrative assistant uses once I get an administrative assistant.
As a hard-core touch-typist, I hate to reach for the Escape key - with a remapped Caps-to-Control I would rather ^[ as a much less impactful combination.
a) None of them.
b) I really wish they'd stop moving the delete key around.
c) I have big hands, which trip over the trackpad as I'm typing. Some laptops have a switch to disable, but they're usually gamer laptops and I'm not a gamer. I'm sure manufacturers spend a lot of time envisioning interesting things that can happen when you stroke the trackpad certain ways, but it's entirely lost on me.
d) The extent to which a laptop keyboard is bearable is in direct relation to the amount of tactile feedback. In the quest for thinness, we're losing sight of that.
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
The Toshiba Portege R100 was great, but later models have a rather mediocre chiclet keyboard.
The only decent chiclet keyboard I ever found is a Google Chromebook. Even the Microsoft Surface does not come close.
My hero!
Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
It took me years to finally figure this out, in my own context.
On my desktop, long ago, I switched my mouse to my left hand, to bring it closer to my physical centerline (and reduce shoulder strain). My mouse is centered on its pad in the same relation to home position as the '4' key on my numeric keypad.
A very common work process is to text select with my mouse (80% of my text selects are double-click to word select—which requires less precise targetting—followed by word-extent drag) after which I need to change window focus (via the mouse), then paste, then type. Since I need to type, for the paste I almost always use CTRL-V instead of mouse-menu paste. (My right hand is loitering at home position, and I've been typing capital letters using both hands since the seventies, but I never employ the right CTRL keys because the right CTRL key is a full two keywidths further away from home position than the left CTRL key—so much further away that my right pinky can't press this key without first leaving home position, despite having a digit reach and Vulcan flexibility that Trump can only dream about.)
When I'm feeling hasty—I'm always feeling hasty—my mouse hand needs to abruptly move from mouse to keyboard to begin typing, starting with CTRL-V. Yet several times on any given day, I end up typing CTRL-B instead. This causes my web browser to open the bookmark screen, an annoying surprise which takes me entirely out of the flow of the moment.
I don't normally have this kind of mistake after moving mouse hand to keyboard for other purposes.
Finally, just a few weeks ago, I figured this out: the left CTRL key has a key top about twice the width of an alphabetic key. This is an old COMPAQ keyboard with properly scalloped key tops. The feedback loop in perfecting my hand motion when orienting initially to CTRL-V is therefore a little bit less precise than for typing a regular :alnum:
Coupled with a small variation in left hand spread, the very short interval between the CTRL and the V key presses (too small for the second phase of subconscious adjustment), and a small amount of chair movement (rotation is the worst), all these minor errors add up to a persistent typing error that annoys the heck out me.
I have many typing errors, but few others identified errors that persist. Most of the rest are purely statistical.
When I type on my wife's iMac, for the entire time, while the characters spill rapidly onto the screen, there's part of my brain going "it's a miracle" or "this can't last". My hands are in a constant state of "I'm lost down here" and "would someone please throw me a bone?" I've never gotten past the gut reaction of marvelling that those keyboards work at all.
My other keyboard is an old ThinkPad T500. I don't mind it at all for regular typing, but I'm never going to become fully automatic and subconscious with the special keys roughly crammed around the periphery. The right edge of the left control key is aligned with the left edge of 'Z', a full keywidth inset from my regular desktop. Unless I slow down to impulse power, my left pinky is constantly double mashing the surrounding Fn or squashy Windows key.
Mobile is like never sleeping in your own bed or being issued a regulation bedroll by the staff Sergeant rather than carefully selecting your own.
Some people like this. Others don't. Some people adapt willingly. Others don't.
And an escape key.
I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
It's only easier if you have a happy hacking keyboard with the control key in the right place. None of that control key bottom left nonsense.
I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
iOS autocorrupts apostrophes and double quotes to SmartQuotes by default, which slashdot doesn't handle.
https://www.jordanmerrick.com/...
FWIW, Latex is pretty stupid with quotes too.
I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
I adore my typematrix keyboard, and it's thin enough to fit without a problem in my laptop bag and sits decently on top of my laptop, but I would love a laptop that incorporated it directly.
Best rant this week, and it's only Monday.
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
I wonder if that's why they renamed their backspace. Anyway, fn+backspace will work as a delete. If you don't have an fn key, I'm sure apple had a great reason for taking that away too.
fn+up/down sometimes works as pgup/down. Sometimes.
Neither of these negate the need for a dedicated key. I don't press alt+ctrl+right when I want an enter key.
I dunno why Slashdot doesn't like them. They're part of unicode and Slashdot is UTF-8.
E.g suppose I paste an left double quote from here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
slashdot displays this
âoe
However if I paste it into here
http://www.ltg.ed.ac.uk/~richa...
I see
LEFT DOUBLE QUOTATION MARK 0x201C
It seems like Slashdot doesn't like any UTF-8 sequence that decodes outside of ASCII and turns it into gibberish. Very odd.
Though if I do this
“
I get
“
It seems like it doesn't like anything but 7 bit ASCII in comments.
echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
Long time ago I learned to type in high school and got up to 55WPM on the typewriter....
... tiny or wide spaced keyboards doesn't matter to me... it takes only less than a minute to get used to it.
When I finished college, I was close to 90 which made me pretty efficient at any keyboards
Acer Predator 21 https://cnet2.cbsistatic.com/i...
the kb on my x220 is super, colleagues using x230/24/0/250 have the calculator style keyboards and they do suck imo
I'm in the market for a new keyboard. I'm looking for something without the numeric keypad as I'm short on desk space. It must also be wired and have a UK layout. Does anyone have any recommendations?
Why UNIX?
The laptop with the "best" keyboard is one of the ones that has a mechanical keyboard in it. They exist, but it's a bit impractical. Short of that it comes down to how much you're willing to sacrifice in terms of size and weight, and that will be different for everyone.
Downvoted because he has a few enemies that downvote everything. What? You thought slashdot was an escape from petty social media?
No, it was downvoted. And all of his critics here seem to be Anonymous Cowards. Almost like they're stalkers.
You can customize this.
When you're editing a new e-mail (the new email window has to have focus) go to View->Edit Toolbar and just drag the "send" icon off the toolbar.
Titan looks good! Though yeah, waaaay too expensive. Nice to see they're finally putting the keys on the lower half.
Yes, this! And all the other keys that are missing from MBPs. I've got an old 17" MBP that I run Linux on. Decent enough hardware especially after replacing the HDD with SSD, but the damn keyboard is a pain to use, I guess because it was designed for OSX. How do MacUsers live without Delete, page up/down, home, only 1 ctrl, etc.? Why does a luxury, high-end 17" laptop not have a practical, easy to use keyboard?
Gonna get a System76 next. Bet they have better keyboards.
Debate is a form of harassment. Do not question my truth.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Try one made this millenium
"del" on a mac is "fn + backspace" isn't it?
When I had upgraded my laptop, I too thought that the keys were very loud. What I discovered was that I was applying a lot more force than required. Now when I type I use much less force than previously and the keys are not loud - note that they are slightly louder than the older keyboard, but not something that is annoying.
it is only after a long journey that you know the strength of the horse.
I can attest that this laptop has the worst keyboard on a laptop I can recall. And that is saying something.
Suppose you were an idiot and suppose you were a member of Congress
I don't care, he's much less annoying that the anonymous stalkers.
I have never been satisfied with a laptop keyboard. Laptop keyboards are OK in a pinch, but the only answer for serious typing is to dock.
There is nothing like a desktop keyboard -- be it travel, buckling pressure, curved keycaps, surface friction, f/j bumps, palm support, arrow/function key location, etc.
Yes, find a modern laptop with a keyboard like older Thinkpads...
I don't know how the Linux keyboard driver handles it, but on OS X, Fn+backspace=del, Fn+up arrow=PgUp, Fn+down arrow=PgDn, Fn+left arrow=Home, Fn+right arrow=End
And why would I need two ctrl keys when the cloverleaf command key is the one used for commands? Most of the time I'm using ctrl is as an additional modifier key or in a Terminal window. I also like that it doesn't have a keypad shoving the keyboard to the left and moving the trackpad off-center like the Dell E6520 that I also have. But I play games on that Dell, so I actually use its full keyboard, so meh.
#naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
Note that if your MacBook Pro keyboard has an Enter key shaped like the letter "L", and an extra key between Z and left shift, you are not using a US keyboard. And the UK Pounds sign has been option-3 on the Macintosh since it first appeared in 1984.
powerbook uk keyboard
#naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
I've had the... opportunity... to develop on a 2016 era Macbook recently. I actually enjoy the mechanical aspects of the new keyboards: the low travel isn't an issue to me, and the sharp distinction between depressed and released states for the keys plus the relatively loud click on each keypress is an aid to typing. Most other keyboards (including older Macbook keyboards) seem very mushy by comparison. The only issue with the keyboard itself is how tightly spaced the keys are, combined with their low height, it can be difficult to even sense the gap between the keys to orient your fingers.
What's a shame is that these Macbooks have other glaring human interface issues. The touch bar is garbage. The entire point of a keyboard is that you can operate it without looking at it, and while looking at the screen I invariably end up brushing random buttons on the touch bar all day long without intending to. There is no tactile warning or feedback whatsoever, I'm working on a task one moment and the next my system has gone into expose mode, or begun playing a song, or muted what I was playing, or gone to sleep, or cancelled what I was doing, or dimmed the screen, or switched to a different tab, or something else entirely.
The enormous touch pad is similarly garbage. There's only a few millimetres of separation between the touch pad and the keyboard, and while the palm rejection is top notch it is also far from perfect. It's not possible to use the keyboard without your hands lurking near or on the touch pad. And so, it happens a dozen times per day that a brush of the touch pad by my palm while typing sends the input cursor off somewhere else in my open file, producing confusion and wasting time.
Much love for my 2005 IBM R series Thinkpad, that keyboard remains remarkable even after all this time.
Also much love for my Unicomp Model M replica. I grew up on the Model M and I'll own a keyboard like it until I die, despite the fact that I can't hear my own thoughts over the keyboard clatter.
There you go, it was made for you:
https://www.theverge.com/2015/...
And I forced myself to get used to it
So it's like a abusive relationship?
Seriously, if you've got something where you need to force yourself to get used to it then that something, whatever it is, has a problem. When was the last time you heard someone say they'd had to force themselves to get used to a Model M/Dinovo Edge/WASD Code/insert-choice-here? You just use it once and know it's The Right Thing. If you need to force yourself to use something, then it's definitely not right.
That's great, thank you!
"del" on a mac is "fn + backspace" isn't it?
Yes, and that's the point.
No sig today...
Eh, you should set that in the keyboard layout of your OS, not with a dipswitch. (ctrl:swapcaps option in xorg)
That said, RealForce does have such a dipswitch too and even an extra swappable keycap for ctrl on the capslock position.
If you use a higher end keyboard, you are more likely to use one keyboard among multiple computers than multiple keyboards at one keyboard. So changing it on the hardware makes it portable.
Personally, I use the capslock on my Pok3r for function.
The Daddy casts sleep on the Baby. The Baby resists!
This is a 17" "mobile workstation" type laptop, with an excellent keyboard as those go, although it certainly doesn't compare to the old Sun keyboards. It has some quirks, in particular that the function and control keys are swapped and the default is for the function keys to perform the special functions rather than send the keystrokes, but that can be fixed in the BIOS.
The most annoying quirk is that the touchpad is somewhat to the left of center, although centered relative to the main keyboard, and I found my left palm inadvertently moving the mouse around. But KDE offers a setting to disable the touchpad when a mouse is plugged in, which solves that problem.
The action is heavier than my old Dell M6500, which is also a 17" mobile workstation. I personally like that. It's also designed to be water-resistant, and they designed rain gutters -- channels through which fluids spilled on the keyboard can drain out the bottom of the laptop.
Of the chiclet keyboards, the Thinkpad has one of the better ones. They at least put some curvature on the keys which helps with the touch typing and keeping your fingers centered on the right keys, which is much easier to type on than the completely flat keys like on Apple laptops. Though I'd still take the keyboard on my R60 (which I believe has the same keyboard as the T60) any day over a modern Thinkpad.
I'm not sure about that assumption. I have about 10 different mechs that I swap around regularly, but only 2 computers that I use them on regularly. It's nice that the keyboard layout is the same whatever keyboard I use, regardless of what dip switches are present.
Nowadays I mostly use my IBM Model M SSK at home, and I have actually remapped the caps lock to the Super_L key because being from 1991, of course it doesn't have a winkey yet.
Typed in my first text editor from a printout - an issue of Dr. Dobbs, I think, don't recall exactly - for the venerable C64, which had no numeric keypad, making data entry of the 6 or 7 K worth of hex assembler code fairly tedious. Otherwise, loved that keyboard.
On the PC side, still miss my Northgate OmniKey Ultra - they offered a bag of keytops for Dvorak which I used before learning to touch on that layout. (Thank you, Mavis Beacon!) DIP switches on the bottom of the keyboard let you switch layouts.
Also on PC, miss using (but still have) a DAS Keyboard - flat black, clicky keys like an IBM, no stencils on the buttons. (Between that and having the Dvorak layout enabled via software, it was difficult for anyone but me to sit down and use the machine. Security through obscurity, anyone?)
But it's OK, I really don't mind not using those anymore, because the keyboard on my '09 MBP is still chunking along quite nicely. Took a little time getting used to it, but now anytime I sit at another machine (even the little bluetooth thing attached to my Samsung tablet) it feels weird.
The new Apple wireless keyboard *with numerical pad* is actually quite good. I think it has a butterfly mechanism but the keys travel much more than the thin one with no numkeys.